A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1

Let therefore thes proud bishops, and foolish Abbats goo shake their ears, for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election, should be in the pour off the church off the faithful, instructed by the counsels off learned men. for as that matter ought not to be in the pour of one: so ought not the rude, and unlearned multitude, challenge unto yt self alone, so great weight off the election, &c.

Let us now see whether the Ans. be any faithfuller in alledginge Master Bullinger. Firste who denieth / that Paul / and Barnabas did choose elders / and ministers there? When we give unto them the gouernmente / and direction off the action / there is no reasonable man can Imagin / that we shut them out off the election. But iff yow think / that because master Bullinger saithe / they chose, therefore he affirmethe / that they chose alone / and without the church: thes words can by no means prove yt / his judgment in other places quite overthroweth yt. hear therefore what M. Bull. writeth: Those which think (meaning the papists) that the bishops, and Archbishop have pour to make ministers use thes places of the scripture, Therefore I left the at Crete, that thow mighteste appointe elders town by town: and again, take heed thow lay not thy hands rashly of any: but we answer, that the Apostles did not use any tyranny in the churches, nor to have them selves alone, done these things which pertained ether to the election, or ordination, other men in the church shut out. For the Apostles, and elders did create bishops, and elders in the church: but communicatinge their counsel withe the churches, yea and withe the consent and approving off the people: which doth appear plainly, by the election, and ordination off Mathias, &c. And there citinge howe Moses did communicate the choice off the magistrates withe the people. he addeth / And so no doubt did blessed Titus, although he had heard thow shalt appoint elders in Creta: yet understood, that nothing was permitted him to do privately, without the advise off the church.

And because this place is cited also / to prove that Master Bullinger should think / that the Election 14. Acts / should be made by Barnabas / and Paul: let the Doctor hear what master Bullinger writethe in the page before / saying / That the lord from the beginning gave authority to the church, to choose, and ordain fit ministers, hath been shown before in the second sermon off this decade, by the example off the moste eldeste churches in the world Jerusalem, and Antioch: whereof the one did not only ordain seven Deacons, but also Matthias the Apostle, the other did set apart to the ministry, the two notable Apostles off Christ Paul and Barnabas: whereunto is added, that the churches off the gentills being instructed, or directed off Paul, and Barnabas, did choose by voices elders, or governors off the church. Where also he quoteth the same place off the Acts / which is here in question. Thes was I constrained good reader to set down / that thow mighteste understand / that the weapons wherewith the D. fightethe against this cause / are not (as he falsely pretendeth) drawn from the godly writers / but ministered unto him by some out off the armory off the papists / whose they only be. The places which I alleged / prove first that yt is usual in the scripture / to ascribe that to the principal in an action / which is common to them withe other: then that although S. Luke / had made no mention off the election off the church / but only said / that Barnabas / and Paul chose: yet thereby could not be concluded / that the church had no interest in the election / but only this / that Paul / and Barnabas were the chief in that action. If that be ascribed unto Joshua / which he procured only / and laid no hand unto: howe much more may yt be ascribed unto Paul / and Barn. which they both procured / and had some doing in? and therefore that example of all is moste apt / for that wherefor it is alleged. I perceive there is nothing so clear / which the D. will not essaie to darcken: seeing he saith / that yt rather appeareth, that the people permitted the election off those governors, to Moses. The contrary whereof manifestly appeareth. for after that in the 9. verse / Moses had bydd them choose governors: in the next verse he saithe / that the people accepted that commaundmente / and thought off yt as a thing equal. Therefore it is moste untrue / that they returned yt into Moses hands again: for then they would have answered / that yt was not meet for him / to committee the election unto them / but rather for the wisdom wherein he excelled / to do yt him self.

And where the D. reasoneth off the 15. verse / upon the words I toke, &c. that phrase doth rather overthrow his purpose / then cōfirm yt: for it semethe to have a relation / to the gyuinge / and presentinge of those which they they had chosen. And the very same Phrase is used afterwards in the 23. verse. of the spies which were sent to spy the lande: which notwithstanding were not only sent off Moses / but off the people also / as appeareth in the 22. verse / and in the book off numbers: where the lord doth not only attribute / this sendinge off spies / unto Moses: but unto the people. Moses gave no further authority unto them: then they which in ecclesiastical elections / ordain those which were chosen before / and confirm the elections which are made. Therefore as those ordinations exclude not the authority off election: so this confirmation off Moses / did not devour that pour off election / which he had gyued them: but their elections / and his confirmation / made up a full creation of those governors. Towchinge the false accusation off pushing at the magistrate / I have answered.

Those verses off the 22. and 23. off the 25. Acts which yow allege / show who bore the swate / in the making of that decree: But yet in that the letters were written in the churches / and not only in the Apostles / and Elders names: and for that the decree is ascribed unto them / by whom the letters are subscribed: yt is manifest / that that consent / and subscription off the people / occupied some room in that decree. Nether is that alleged out of M. Calu. any thing against that I said / that the people had to do in yt / and gave consent: but giveth as much to the church as I / in saying / the church committed the matter unto the decision of the Apostles, and Doctors: as though it belōged unto the church / and the church / had put yt over unto them. Yt is enough for me / that the churches subscription was there / and that not for a cyphre. Therefore although S. Luke / for shortness sake did call yt the decree off the Apostles / and Elders: yet S. Paul which gave them to the churches / and which in other places standeth so much upon the authority off the churches / to stop the mowthe off the contentious: did not (by all likelihood) omyt the authority off the church / to give them the more grace withe the churches / unto the which he delivered them.

The Ans. which will prove nothing him self / but off whom we must take all moste althinges at his bare word / hath notwithstanding a great grace in setting me to prove all things / be they never so manifest. Let him then understand / that this which he requirethe proof off / is confirmed by the authority off master Cal. and master Bulling. The manner off speech also is in Liuy: where the consul is said to set up another consul / into the place off him which was dead: when he did yt not by his own authority only / but by voices off the Senate / and people.

If the Answ. could have first given his reader a drink off the river off forgetfulness, to have made him forgette what he ought to prove / peradventure this talk off his might have some ende: but iff he carry in mind that he hath to prove / that almost all ecclesiastical writers do affirm, the word liftihg up of hands to be used in the scriptures, for the solemn manner off ordaining ministers by imposition off hands, and not for the election by voices: I say iff he carry this in mind / he shall perceive easily / howe idle for the moste parte / this talk is. And verily all thes authorities here brought / are either vain: or directly against him self: or in sufficient to prove that / which he undertaketh. For to what purpose are here alleged / two places out off master Calvin / two Canons givē to the Apostles / and the Testimony off Jerome? They prove that lftiing up off hands, is taken in ecclesiastical writers for imposition off hands / which is confessed by me in plain words: But to the performance off your promise / that almost all the ecclesiastical writers affirm, that this word is so taken in scripture: yet there is not one syllable. In this rank also off idle testimonies / is that whole section off master Gwalther. For I confessed him to think / that the word was so taken: but yet so that withal / he joineth the election off the people by voices: Which the Answ. would by that signification off the word / overthrow. So that all thes brought in off the D. look another way / then he would have them.

That the Canons attributed unto the Apostles / make not to prove the sole election off a bishop / shall be discussed after: here it is only sufficient to have shown / that they make not to prove that which the Ans. alleged them for. Wherein I marvel also what he meaneth / to ask leave of me that yt may be as lawful for him to use them, as it is for me: as if I had used them otherwise / thē I owght. I never used them as the natural canons of the Apostles / I have shown that they are not / nor cannot be theirs: but as the Canons off other Councils where amongst the bad / there are found some good. And I never used them / but where I confirmed by Testimony off the word off God / that which I bring them witness for. Therefore this phrase being used thrice / or four times / without all occasion: argueth him to be a vain trifler / which because he hath nothing to answer / giveth him self the bridle to forge / and surmise all manner off untruths. And where by this preface / yt seemeth the man would have stricken this matter / as dead as a door nail: yet having leave to use them / he hath not so much as once come near unto the matter ▪ only he hath gained some few lines / to increase his confused heap.

The next rank is of those / which are not only not profitable / but directly hurtefull unto his cause. In which number is the witness off Master Bull. that word which signifieth lifting up of hands, is so placed that we may understand, either that they were chosen by voice off the people, or ordained by laying on off hands: especially if he had added the four next words / I think both were done Whereby appeareth that Master Bullingers opinion is / that both the churches chose by voices / and the Apostles laid on their hands / which directly ouerthrowethe the Answ. For his answer is such / that unless the word do only signify there the ceremony off imposition off hands / and not the election by voices: yt goethe to the ground. therefore Master Bulling. saying / that booth were done in this place: there could be no flatter testimony against him / then yt.

And where he citeth Master Bullinger / that he is elected by common suffrages off the People, which is chosen by the testimony off the best: I know good reader thow merueileste / not / that it comethe out off time / for that is his ordenarie: but doest thow not marvel / what mystical rethoricke hath separated so far a sonder / this sentence from the other which he before alleged? Leue to marvel / there is no great art in it / but there is some craft. For if thow give heed unto him / yt may appear yt was only to cover the treachery which he used / in taking both that which goethe before / and that which cometh after: leuing quite out those words by me alleged / which stand in the myiddest off those two sentences / marringe his whole marcket. And because yt would have to palpably appeared / if he had done yt in one / and the same place: he maketh thē to come as it were strangers out off two several countries / that dwell hard together.

For the sentence it self / what would he trow yow conclude? That the bishop must have the election? if it be not that / I know not wherefor yt is brought. If he mean to use yt therun to: then must off necessity Master Bullinger speak thus / that he is elected by the commō suffrages off the people / which is approved by the testimony off the best bishops. Do yow lawghe at thes things / when the D. is in so good earneste? Seinge he seeth that both the testimony off the Scripture / and writers old / and new (Papists only excepted) give interest off election unto the people: yet rather then yt should fall from the bishops / he maketh a metamorphosis / and change off the Bishops into the people. The meaning off Master Bullinger (if any could be so ignorāte as not to understand) is / that the faithful only have interest in the election off the church: and that the Papists have not / nor ought not to have to do in it / nether any other heretics / and scismatickes from the church. Whatsoever yt be / yt can be by no means drawn to prejudice the churches interest / which he doth so plainly both here / and else where affirm.

And where yt is supposed / that the church hath leave to oppose against him that is to be elected: I have shown howe manifest mockery yt is / off the church off God. As for that which is said off master Bulling. and Master Calvin jointly / that they have affirmed off the significatiō off the word as much as he: yt is a manifest untruth. For master Calvin never affirmed / that the scripture ever used that word, to note the ceremony off laying on off hands. Off M. Bullinger yt hath been before spoken.

There followeth in this seconde rank Oecunemius / whose testimony is so flat against the Ans. signification off the word lifting up off hands, and therefore also against the sole election off the bishop: as a clearer could not be required. His words be thes / yt is to be noted, that the disciples withe fasting, and prayers did make elections by voices. Now seeing by the word disciples Saint Luke / and the Scoliast following him / continually through the story of the Acts / note the people which believed: it is manifest that the Scoliaste doth both conclude upon this place / that the people did choose: and cōcludethe yt also of the word / lifting up off hands. Whether in attributinge the same word unto Paul / and Barnab. he mean thereby the ceremony off imposition off hands: I will not (as in a thing not worth the travail) stand. yt is enough for me to have shown / how this testimony maketh directly against that / which the Doctor affirmeth: that is to say / that the word lifting up off hands signifiethe in this place off the Acts / only the ceremony off laying on off hands. For if it signify both the election by voices / and the ceremony off laying on off hands: then our cause standeth as sure / as if it only signified the election by voices.

And to this testimony off the Scoliaste agreeth the same Ignatius / that the Ans. in his former boke maketh so great account off: who writeth thus / yt is meet that yow as those which be the church off god, should choose by voices your biship. Whereby not only appeareth / that that author will have the church choose her minister: but also how this word is used off him in the proper signification / to note the election which is made by voices. Chrysostom remaineth / which taking the word for the imposition off hands / doth not exclude the natural signification. Brenz translating Chrysost. had followed that sense I set down: if the D. can confute him by the Greek example / he is worthy off credit.

Let us now see what the Ans. hath to say against those reasons / whereby I show that S. Luke by lifting up off hands, meant properly the election by voices. I may not (saithe he) teache the holy ghost to speak: God forbid I should go about yt. But shall not he which made the mouthe speak / and he which teacheth all other to speak properly / speak properly him self? I do not therefore teache the holy ghost to speak, which apply his words to make them agree withe the things they signify: but your opinion supposeth want off knowledge off the tongue in the holy ghost / which would have him signify laying down / by lifting up. And where yow say I trifle, because he that layeth on his hands, must first lift them up, or ever he can lay them on: who trifleth in this point let all judge. For who doth not understand / that the name is usually given off the principal / and nearest action wherewith it is doon: and not off those actions which are far off / accidental / or for the cause / and sake off the principal. And yt is all on / as if a man should call the taking off a knife into his hand / cuttinge off bread: because he that cutteth bread / must before take the knife into his hand.

How be it / if there were the same manner off laying on off hands in the primitive church / which is in popery / and withe us / where he that is chosen kneeleth on his knees / to receive the bishops laying on off hands: yt is so far from any need to lift up his hand / or ever he can lay yt on: that unless he carry his hands very unmannerly / like a pair off hanging sleeves: he must let them down / or ever he can can lay them on the head off him which is chosen. Therefore although another might use this poor shift: yet yow which have undertaken to defend whatsoever the bishops generally do in their elections / have (if I should deal hardly with yow) lost this advantage.

Yt is nothing with the A. that the 70. interpreters off the old Testament / nor that S Paul / and Luke him self / utter the laying on off hands by other words. Thes are bare conjectures being alleged against him: but ye shall hear by and by / where he hath not half such a reason / the great bell go with certainly, and manifestly. Howbeit although thes seem bare conjectures to him: yt must needs have weight with those / that have their senses well acquainted with the holy scripture. For they know that the writers off the new testament / frame them selves unto the manner off speech off the old / when they speak off the same things: and for the gentiles sake which had knowledge off the translation of the seventy interpreters / they keep them so carefully to that: that sometimes they use it / although yt be not in every point so just / and so answerable unto the truth of the Hebrew / as might have been. Which thing done off all those especially / which labored in the tillage off the gentills / amongst whom S. Luke (S. Paul's Companion) was: whosoever considereth must needs confess / that this conjecture is not so bare as he maketh yt.

I ask if any man can reasonably think / that in one and the same ceremony / common as well unto us off the Newe Testament / as those off the old / Saint Luke would leave both the manner of speech of the Hebrews / and the words off the 70 interpreters: to take a strange phrase from the one / and diverse words from the other? or whether he would leave the phrase / and words which the Jews / and gentiles were acquainted withe: to use a phrase which the Jews never hard of / and a word which was in that signification / unknown unto the Gentiles? off all which when there is no one / which hath not force to persuade this sentence: so the last is such / that yt leuethe no place unto any resistance. For when the holy ghost speaketh with the tongues off men / and to their understanding: if by this word lifting up off hands, he had signified a laying on of hands: he could not have been understanded / seeing that word was of no such signification in that tongue.

And where he saithe / I oppose my bare conjectures, to improve so many learned men's judgments: I have shown howe he hath over toulde. I have nowhere reasoned against yow / as if yow should affirm that by that word, the laying of on hands, should be mente. Therefore if yow had spared that cavil / yow might have been clear of two moe errors which yow are fallen into / by affirminge partly / that S. Luke by the word lifting up off hands, signifieth the whole solemnity of creatinge ministers (which cannot be true / seeing he expresseth two other parts off yt / which are prayer / and fasting) partly in affirminge / that he doth in the words off laying on off hands all ways understand, the bare laying on off hands only: when as in two off those places which I have alleged / it may appear / that by those words is noted / not only the puttinge on off hands: but also the prayers which were made / for the receiuinge off the gifts off the holy ghost. Which thing expressed in another place to have been done by Peter / and John / we must esteem observed / at othertymes.

If I had not brought the place off the Acts / the A. had had nothing to say / to that I alleged of Saint Luke's borowinge this phrase / not off those which came many years after: but of those which were before. But seeing destitute off your own / yow are entered upon my possession / against my will / and so also that yow will thrust me out: let yt be sufficient / that yow have eased your self here a while. I say therefore / that this place maketh against yow / in that this word in that place / signifieth not a laying on off hands upon the heads off the chosen: but a chusinge by voices / considering that we read plainly / that he chose his Apostles by voice.

Let us hear now how it maketh against us. Firste because the word is not there taken, for lifting up off hands: but for appoinctinge and ordaining. As who should say yt is not usual unto the scripture / and to all speeches / by figure in one parte to note the whole: and therefore S. Luke by that one form off election / passed by the ceremony off lifting up off hands / notethe this election which was made by voice / off our Savior Christ. yt may be also applied unto other elections / wherein by going from one side to another / or by writing his voice in a table / the consent off the chuser is uttered. So doth the scripture by bonds / and chain / which are particular kinds off restrainte: note all manner off restraincte off liberty / although a man have nether bonds / nor chains a bowte him. So that that which is so often said in the gospel simply / off our Savior Christ's choosing his Apostles: S. Luke did here in figure / not without great grace utter.

Where yow say / that by this means yt signifieth not to ordain by suffrages: in deed in this place yt cannot / considering that our Savior Christ was but one. But where yow would conclude thereof / that Paul, and Barnabas by their voices only chose the ministers, and elders: Yt is further a sunder / then ever yow can set together. here yow must be admonished / that where the moste off your witnesses did forsake yow before: yow beheere forsaken off them all. For there is never a one off the new writers especially / named of us both: but upon that place off the Aces / hath in plain words approved the election by the church.

Secondly the person off our Savior Christ which chose / with whom none might be joined in commission / and the person off the Apostles / which could not be chosen of any but off God: did sufficiently off them selves / without further addition / argue the sole election off our Savior Christ. But in the 14. Acts / seeing nether the Apostles which did choose / were such as might not be accompanied off the church / nor the Mynisters that were chosen off such degree / as might not likewise fall into the choice off the church: and considering also that all the elections off the ministry spoken off before / in which the Apostles had to do / were by consent of the church: yt is clear that if S. Luke's meaning had been / to tie this election as streighte unto Pau. and Barn. as the other to our Sau. Christ: he would have put in words which might as clearly have declared that meaning in this / as the circumstances of the persons do in the other.

Thirdly if this word which notethe the choice by voices / should be restrained unto Paul / and Barnabas: then also the word which declareth that they prayed should only be restrained unto them: for as that is givē unto them / so is this. Now if it be absurd to say / that in those public prayers Paul / and Barnabas only prayed: yt is as absurd to say / that they only chose: and the same may be said off fasting. For that which followethe with fastinges, is all one as if he had said / fasting, saving only that S. Luke for elegancy sake / and to a void the multitude of participles coming so thick / turned the verb into the noun. so that for so much as Paul / and Barnabas did not only fast / but the church also: yt must follow that they chose not only / but the church with them. Therefore as S. Luke in saying that Paul / and Barnabas prayed, and fasted, meaneth not that they prayed and fasted only / but that they went before the rest / in governing those Ecclesiastical actions: even so in saying that they chose by voices, he meaneth not that they chose alone without the church / but that they guyded / and directed the judgments off the church. Last off all / seeing that all the twelve to gether / would not enterprise to do any thing off their private authority / without consent of the church: much les can yt be thought / that Paul / and Barnab. would attempt yt.

Hereto make an end of this dispute / I will answer that which is brought off this word p. 163. And first I deny that ever I said / that this word by it self, without ioininge any thing unto yt, signifieth election off many by voices. for yt cannot signify any thing / unless yt be joined with something. These words (off the churches) although they declare of whom the election was made: yet they are not added to note the manner of the election / as the word Act. 14. but to give credit unto the ambassadors / with the churches unto which they went / that they might safely committee their monie unto them / for the behoufe of the church off Jerusalem. Therefore it is nothing yow allege / that this addiciō off the churches had been needles, if the word lifting up off hands, had signified off it self an election by voices. For Sainte Paul should not have to the full / advanced their credit with the churches: if he had given only to understand / that they were chosen by voices of many: considering that they were chosen / not only by the voices of many men: but by the voices off many churches. Whereupon I conclude / that S. Luke Act. 14. used that word as the Grecians before him / for electiō by suffrages: and withal put him in mind / that his certain and manifest things, have neither ground to stand on / nor light to show them by.

There are but two communities / one Anabaptistical which maketh equality off all things / which is / and ever was unlawful; the other Christiā / which provideth for need of those / which have not wherewith to find them selves / which is / and ought to be perpetual / amongst all Christians. Therefore yow cannot escape with this circuit of words / for either that community in the Acts / was such as ought to be amongst us / which yow deny / and propound as an absurd thing: or else it was Anabaptistical / which is blasphemous against the spirit off God.

Althowghe men may be good Christians without sellinge their lands, and distributings of the price off them unto those which have need: yet they cannot be good Christians / if for necessary relief of the poor of the church weroff they are / they be not content to sell (the need so requirring) even their lands. And such was the estate of the church off Ierusalē / where there were so many poor / and so few riche / that the want of those which had not / with much a do was supplied by sale off lands / and houses off them / that had such possessions. Which extreme poverty may easily be seen in other places / where not hable to be fournished of the riche of that church / yt was fain to be supplied by diverse other. Unto the reasons alleged out off S. Paul / to prove that the same community is commanded of him to all Christians: yowe answer not one word. Unto the which I will ad this / that I doubt not but that which was done there / was so far from oxtraordinarie doing: that yt was done by the cōmaundemente of God in the law / where the lord chargeth the Israelites / that there should be no beggars amongst them For Saint Luke seemeth to have alluded to that place / whē he saithe / there was no needy amongst them: which expresseth moste aptely / the Hebrew word which Moses vsethe.

That which I brought off Ananias, and Sapphira, was to prove there was no such community amongst them as your answer supposed / and to glase up the the windows of Anabaptistry / which yow had opened. And surely if the anabaptistes had (as they neither have / nor can have) warrant of their community / by this example off the moste pureste / and ancientest church / and in deed then the only church in the world / approved by all the Apostles replenished with the spirit off God: they should have stronger hold then M. D. should ever be hable to pull from them. I do not think yow favor the Anabaptists community, but partly seduced off others / and partly overcaried with the violence off your affections: yow are vnawars fallen into that errer / whereby the Anabaptists grownde it.

Where I said / that all off the church did not sell their possessions: I confess the word possession / was not so advisedly put / seeing thereby is properly signified house / and lande / and those which we call vnmouable goods: which Saint Luke saithe were sold off as many as had them. But yet nothing falleth of that for which I did alleged yt: and it is rather thereby confirmed. For showing that all owners off house / and land did sell them / and not that everyone which had other goods did the like: thereby is given to understand / that not everyone which had monay / or other mouables / brought them unto the Apostles.

The Adm. reason yow are not able to stir. For if S. Paul. For avoiding suspicion in a monay matter, did communicate the election with the churches: why should he not to avoid suspicion, off percialitie / ambition / and tyranny / communicate with them the election off the ministers? Surely he was as far from suspicion off this covetous treachery with all men: as from suspicion off these faults. And so much farther / as such excellent wits / and learning as was in him / are easilier overcome off those other vices / then off this pilferinge off monay: which the grosser / and unlearned sort for the moste parte offend in. Na why should not S. Paul be in fear off this monay suspicion / if he had taken upon him the election off the ministers / shuttinge out the churches? Doo yow think that those which would have done him that injury / to think that he would have turned the church money unto his own use (which often times with his own hand erned both his own living / and others too / which refused the wages which he might justly have challenged) would not also have suspected him off the same fault / if he had chosen the ministers at his pleasure / without consent off the church? Or do yow not think that there are many / which suspecte diverse off the Bishopps that way: which say that for a dishe of fruit of the gouldē gaiffe / they lease out / and make all manner off merchandise of the Lord's orchardes: that he which hath no gift in his heart / yet if he have a gift in his hand / need no other keie to opē the church door / and enter into a benefyce? If therefore for the auoidinge of suspiciō of corruption by moneie / it was needful for Saint Paul / to communicate the election off such ministers with the church: howe much more was yt needful / for the auoidinge off both the suspicion off that vice / and diverse others / he should do the like in the ordinary ministers? And if that where needful in S. Paul / for upholding off his honest estimation to the greater fruit off the gospel: I say as I said / what Archebishop shall dare take upon him the making off a minister, without consent off the church? For if Saint Paul's innocence of life / which (as the diamonte a peble stone) might shame all the Archbishoppes that live this day / had need off this aide: they must off necessirie run into suspicion off all those vices / which contemninge the judgment off the churches / make such elections off their own authority.

Where yow say / that Saint Paul might have chosen them him self, if he would: I say that it is untrue / and a manifest begginge of that in controversy. And to say so is as much / as if yow had said: he might have hazarded his good estimation if he would / and left it at the curteousye off quarellers / which sowghte every occasion of speaking evil of his ministry Beside that yow must understand / that in the gouernmente of the churches / the Apostles were governed by the spirit of God: whose counsel when this was / it was no more lawful for him to refuse yt / thē to disobey the lord. Touching the untruth he chargeth me with / in that I said / the church chose 1. Act. it is before answered. And it is a vain quarrel of the A. that there was no election off the church, because an Apostle may not be chosen by men. As though I had not set down before / when I spake off that election / that I mean not the choice / which was made off one out off those two: but the choice off those two out of the whole church: not that choice which determined / the Apostellshipp / but which determined / who they should stand for the Apostleship. And if no election of the church can be said to have been in the first off the Acts / because an Apostle cannot be chosen off any / but off God alone: then cannot the Apostles (which the D. affirmeth) be said to have chosen Matthias and Barnabas / out of the rest off the church.

In the 1. 2. 3. sections off this division / he hath filled up almost a whole side / wherein there is nothing at all / which either is not gone before / or cometh not after / and so grossly repeated / without ether new coat / or new color: that I marvel he is not ashamed. For the places Act. 1. 6. 14. for that also Cor. 8. 2. I have replied before: to the other / answer shall be made in their places. Now then to begin̄e with the falsifyinge yow charge me with / I say that although I have not given yow the same words: yet I have givē yow the same weight / and I acknowledge yow for no M. of the tongue / by whose authority I should be bound / to the same words which yow use. I have not taken yow / as yow do me at the worst: but I have given your words a fauorabler meaning / then they deserve / because I perceived that yow mente to comprehend Cyprians times / although your words even to Cyprians time, would not so well bear it. yt is disputed whether this word until, or unto, doth shut out / or shut in the time whereof it is spoken: but there was never I think any / that dowbted whether that saying in common speech / might be stretched out / beyond that time whereunto it is particularly applied. Notwithstanding your words are yet more restreintiue. For yt restreineth more to say / even to such a time: then to say simply / until such a time. for that increase off the word even, maketh the wall off separation higher.

But now he seethe the untruth off this saying / he castethe yt upon Master Musc. and he must bear the weight off yt. But such moste gross ignorance off the estate off the primitive church / was far from him. And Master Musc. cleareth him self off it well. For when he saith / that the election of the minister by the voices off the church, endured unto Cyprians time: he meaneth not as the D. to put difference between the elections made by the people / and the biship: but showeth only a difference / between elections made by consent off the people / without the magistrate: and between the elections made by the consent of the people / withe the confirmation off the Magistrate. And that this is his meaning / yt may easily appear. For pursuinge the proof of that election by the church without the magistrate / alleging certain Canons thus he concludeth. After this sort therefore were the Elders, bishops, and deacons in times paste chosen: which fashion they still retained, until the time off Christian magistrates, whose consent unto the election off the bishops, was required. Therefore this absurdity being the Ans. own / he must be content to bear yt.

Yt maketh no matter that this form of election, was not in some few churches off the world in Cyprians time: nether is it marvel. although in some places at that time / they had departed from the institution of the Apostolical church. If it be proved that Cyprian teachethe / that it ought to be so / and that it is God's ordinance: if all the churches had declined from yt / as there were very few: Cyprian must needs by that sentence / disalowe them. Althowghe I must also admonish yow / that if those few examples in Cyprians time could prejudice the truth: yet your bishops election is not confirmed thereby. for it might be done by the eldershipe of the church / by assembly off many bishops. moste vnlikeste is yt off all other / that it was done at the pleasure off one bishop. Let us therefore come to examine Cyprians judgment / and see whether I have reported trwly of him.

Firste / as a trewante loath to go to scoole / seeketh the furthest way: so the A. afraid off the light off Ciprians words / maketh entrance into this sentence by half a score lines / which might have been in one. Here good reader as the A callethe for thy diligence / so if thowe give a little heed: thow shalt see such open / and violente peruertinge / as could not be done without crack off conscience.

Firste therefore let us hold that (which I think is accorded off both partes) that Cyprians purpose is to withdraw the people / from communicatinge with the ministry off those / which had fallen from the gospel unto Idolatry. To the confirmation whereof when he had alleged / the greuousnes off that crime: he addethe / especially seeing the people have pour to choose worthy, and to refuse unworthy ministers. As if he should say / if it were not in your pour / to refuse those unworthy ministers / yow might have some excuse: or if being in your pour to refuse the unworthy / yow had not also pour to choose another worthy / yow might have likewise somewhat for excuse. For yow might allege peradventure / that it were better to keep him still / then to be without altogether / or to have a nother as evil / or worse then he. but seeing yow have both power to refuse the vnworthly / and to a choose a nother: there must needs befaulte. That this is the meaning off Cyprian / and his argument wherewith he calleth them back / from communicatinge with the ministry off those which had fallen: all which can set the nominative case / and verb together / must needs understand.

Now let us see whether the exposition off the Ans. will maintain this saying. To accord him and Cyprian / we must first expound thes words to have pour to choose, and to have pour to refuse, to be to stand by while they be chosen, or refused. Which master D. gatherethe belike / because Cyprian saithe / the election must be had the people being present. In deed it appeareth the manner was then / that he that was to be chosen / was before them: but is it a good reason / that Cyprian would have the people present at the election / therefore he would not have them to choose? seeing he had said im̄ediatly before / that they had pour to choose. Yt is well therefore / that he added / that yt ought to be done by their judgment: so that if the church judged him not meet / he ought not to be minister. And further addeth (which the D. is afraid of / and which he shamfully deniethe in state words) by their voices.

The examples out off the Acts wherewith he bringethe light unto that which he thawghte / are touched before: and amongst others by the electiō off the Decons / which because the D. cannot deny / but it was by the church: he hath left yt clean forth. and yet most plainly he showeth this by example of an electiō / which was lately made in the church whereunto he writethe: saying / which we see to have been done withe yow, in the ordeininge off our fellow in office Sabinus: thar the bishopric should be given him, by the voice off the whole brother hood and by the judgment off those bishops which were present, and which had written unto yow off him, &c.

Thus therforey may be reasoned / that was the ordinance off God which Cyp. taught to have been practiced by thos examples (for he still coupleth them together withe his doctrine givē before / and grounded out of the book of nūbers): But he taught that in thes examples the people were not only present at the choice / but also gave their voices: therefore it was God's ordinance / not only that that the people should be present / but also that they should choose.

And here yt is again to be observed / that this is another off the popish shifts. for unto Luther (which alledgeth that the people ought to choose there minister / leste the church should despise / or hath him which is thrust upon it / whilst it might not have him whom yt desired) Pighius answereth that the meaning off those words be / that the people should be present / and bear witness: and the same answer is made by other Papists / to other testimonies which are brought. This by the way that it may be known / from whence the Ans. provision comethe.

Now to proceed: Where he saithe / that the people had no voices in Eleazars election: I ask him howe he prouethe that. If he answer because it is not mentioned in the scripture / he hath answered him self more then twenty times / when he saith / that it is an evil argument to reason negatively off the scriptures. Let him now take this answer / That there was no like necessity off examininge Eleazars ministry by voices / as there is off other ecclesiastical electione: forsomuch as he was chosen by the voice off God / which could not be deceived. But Cyprian did well see / that if the lord would not have the judgment off the church passed by in those / which he him self had chosen by his voice from heaven: much les would he have / any minister thrust upon the church against her will / in elections which are made by men / without such special direction.

Now as this interpretation off the A. is directly against the words off Cyprian / directly against his meaning shown forth by practice / and examples: so doth yt directly overthrow the whole scope / which Cyprian alledgeth those words for: which is / that he might thereby withdraw the churches / from communicatinge with the ministry of those which had fallen / seeing they might both put them out / and choose other in their places. For if he mente the church should stand by to see who were chosen / and to object against him if need required (albeit not thus much was ever observed of our bishops) tell me who are they Cyprian ment should choose? magistrate there was none / The eldershippe the D. dare not say / for he trembleth at the very name of it: I dare say his meaning is / to gratify the bishop withe this morsel / but yt will choke him if he swallow yt. Yt is the portion off a number / and therefore if it could be carried from the church: It must come unto the bishops that dwell round about that church / where the election is to be made. And if the election / and deprivation by Cyprians mind / be in their hands: howe hath the people pour to choose / and refuse? For if they would / they could neither deprive the present incumbente / nor depriuinge him choose another. Anye off thes things overthroweth Cyprians drifte / and armeth the people withe replies against his exhortation: namely that they communicated withe their polluted minister / because yt is not in them to depose him / but in the Bishops round about: yt is not in them to choose another / but in the Bishopps. Therefore his reprehension / and exhortation should have been directed against the bishops / and not against them. And so it is manifest / both by the words / and whole drifte off Cyprian: that his judgment was / that by the ordinance off God in Ecclesiastical elections / the consent / and iugemente off the church is necessary.

The Cuckoe is here come again: for look the D. book / and yow shall see ether the same words / or at leste the same matter without any addition / Which are here in the 1. 2. 3. 4. sect. off this diuis. In the 164. and 165. pag. sect. 1. 2. Yow have yt set before yow almost all again. This is not Colewortes twice / but thrice sodden. Yt behooveth that he imagine a great famine of learned writings / that dare thus abuse the cares / and leisure off his reader.

Touching the variety of Electiōs / which he citeth out of M. Calvin / unless as unnatural women do their children conceived in adultery / he purpose to make away withe his cause: I know not what he should mean / to offer yt thus into the hands off her enemies. For he writeth thus in that place alleged. In old time there was none received, not so much as in to the number off clerks, without the consent off the people: so that Cyprian doth diligently excuse him self, that he had appointed Autelius a reader without advise off the church. And so rehersing Cyprians words / after he addethe: But because in those smaller exercises, there was no great danger, for that both they were in daily trial, and the function was not great: the consent off the people ceased to be asked. And by those small exercises yt must needs be / he meaneth the Acoluthes / the Exorcistes / and the Readers: which may appear to have been in Cyprians time by his Epistles. And may yet better appear / whereas Master Calvin (showing the cause / why the people was not so careful in that behalf off retaininge their righte) saithe / For there was none made subdeacon, which under that severity off discipline that was then, had not given longe experience off him self in the clerkshipp: and after he was tried in the subdeaconshippe, he was made deacon. So that yt is manifest / that by the order off Clerks there he meaneth those / which were under the degree of a subdeacon.

He saith also / that afterwards the people did permit the judgment, and choice off other orders likewise unto the bishop, and elders, except the bishoppricke, or whē any new elders were appointed. where first yt maketh directly against yow / that in times paste not so much as a poor Exorciste / or reader was chosen / without the consent off the people. Secondly / that he saithe Cyprian did excuse him self unto the people / that he had chosen Aurelius: implyinge thereby that although he had some reason / to lead him to do so: yet he was in the people's danger. Thirdly / that yt was the people's righte / in that they permitted this pour unto others. Fourthly / that this righte was givē to the elders / and not to the bishop alone / as yowe would have yt. Last of all / that both the choice of the bishop / and elder remained in the pour off the people. Wherefore yow untruly report / when yow say / that the people committed the choice unto the bishops, and elders: except yt were in the election off the bishop. For although he say so / immediately after he addethe. Excepte peradventure new elders were appointed to the parishes: for then the multitude off the place, must namely consent. And after he saith / Althowghe in the elders always the consent off the citizens was required. Hytherto appeareth / that all the elections were made by consent off the people: if otherwise / by their curteousie / or (as master Calvin in another place note the) negligence.

Where the D. addeth / And sometimes only the minister did first choose, and then offer those whom he had choosen to the magistrate, who ratyfied the election if he liked it, if not chose other, &c: In deed here is an election without the consent off the people / but what is that & caetera? belike some stranger / which pertaineth not to this matter. Mark then again good reader / that if this were his own doing: there was never such a clypper off koine / as he of the writings off Godly men. For yt followeth even in the same sentence / wherein the whole weight off the cause doth consist / Then the matter was brought to the multitude, which although it were not bound unto those foreiudgemēts: yet thereby was hable to make the les tumulte. or if the people did begin, that was only to know whom they did moste desire: And when the people's voices were heard, then in the ende the clergy chose. So that nether the clerks could set in the ministry, whō they listed: nor it was not necessary to obeie the foolish desires off the people. Coulde there be any plainer words / then that the people was not bound by that both the elders / and the magistrate had done / but were yet at their choice / if they liked not the chosen? After Master Calvin saithe / that this manner off election by the ministers, magistrates, and people was in force in pope Gregory's time: and like to have continued longe after.

Off your Canons here alleged one only excepted / which maketh nothing for yow: the rest make directly against yow. For the canon attributed to the Apostles yt is there said / that if a bishop chosen unto a church, do not receive yt: he shall be separated from the communion, until he take yt But if it be through the naughtiness off the people, which will not receive him: then he shall remain bishop still, and the clergy shall be separated from the communion, because they taught their people no better to obeie. Where appeareth / that the bishop could not enter / unless the people were willing. And where the canō would have him bishop still: yt meaneth that he should retain the name of a bishop / because he was put by without his fault. Which thing was granted to Miletius / to whō the Council of Nice in the Synodal Epistle / gave the naked name of a bishop.

In the Ancyran Council which yow allege / there is the same: saving only that yt is more directly against yow. For there the Council willethe the biship appointed unto a church / if it will not receive him to return unto his old place of eldershipp / where he was before. The self same doth the Canon Which yow allege out off the Council of Antioch / confirm. So that thes three Canons can tell the bishop / apoincted by other bishops off the province / no other remedy if he be refused off the people: but to quiet him self and return to his old place off Eldershipp. And that yow may know howe contrary always master Calu. is / unto the Ans. observe that off the same Council off Antioch / and no doubt of the same Canon / which the D. gathereth / that the church hath nothing to do in the election: Master Calvin gathereth / that the Council ordained, that none should be thrust upon the people against their will.

The 12. Canon off the Council of Laodicea / in saying that a bishop ought not to be appointed to the gouermente off the church, beside the judgment off the Metropolytan, and other bishops hard by: gyuethe to understand / that as they had a stroke in that election / so there were other that had to do beside them. For otherwise yt would not have spoken so koldly off yt: For it saithe not / that the Metrapolitaine / and other Bishops / should only appoint a bishop: no not so much as that they should appoint / but only that the Bishoppe should not be appointed / without them.

The 13. Canon / which provideth that it should not be permitted unto the people, to make election off the minister: agrethe well with the 16. Canon off the Council off Antioch. Which as it would not have a biship put upon the churches otherwise froward / without their consent (as hath been shown): so will it not / that those which the churches had chosen without the iudgemen off the bishops round about / should stand in force. And if either Master Calvin / or Master Beza have any credit with yow / yow have their interpretatiō / that the meaning off the Council was not / to shut out the consent off the church: but only to provide / that the ministers / and elders should have direction / as best hable to judge off the fitness of him that should be chosen. If they have no credit with yow / yet whether ye w • l • or no yt may manifestly be shown / that the canons meaning was not to shut out the people / by other Councils / off Nice / off Constantinople / off Toled / off Cartage / alleged in the former book. Wheroff some going before / and some coming hard after / with such clear testimony off the people's consent in the electiō: decleare sufficiently / that the Council of Laodicea cannot be thought / to have had any such meaning / as yow suppose. but that there be no controversy / I will add to thē the testimony off such / whereby shall appear / not only what the iudgmente off those Councils are: but what was both the custom̄ off the churches / and the judgment off other Councils from time / to time in this behalf. In the Council off Paris yt was thus decreed / And because in certain things the old custom is neglected, and the decrees off the Canons are broken: yt is our decree that according to the old custom, the Canons off the decrees be observed. Let none be ordained bishop, against the will off the citizens: but he whom the election off the people, and off the clerks with moste full consent hath required. Nether by the commandment off the prince, nether by any other condition, let him be thrust in against the will off the Metropolitan, and other the bishops of the same province. In another Council / Let yt not be lawful to get any bishopric by rewards, or by other procurement: but by the will off the king, according to the election off the clergy, and off the people, as it is contained in the ancient canons, that the bishop should be ordained by consent of the clergy, and of the metrapolitā, or him that he will appoint, together with the bishops of the same province. And after / Besides this according as the old canons have decreed, no biship may be given unto the people against their will: nether by oppression of mighty men, which is detestable, let the citizens, or clergy be drawn to give their consent. And thus much for answer to your Councils.

To fetch a commandment out off the book off numbers, is to fetch yt out off the higheste court off heaven: And I was not constrained unto it / for off more then half a score reasons brewghte / whether one off them be once moved by yow / I leave it to be judged. This commandment pinched yow so / that albeit yow pretend lawghter: yet I doubt not but yt is Sardons lawghter / that is to say / from the teethe outward. where yow say / there is no word which signifieth an election: yt is your old boldness / off denying that which is as clear / as the none days. Where also yow say / that it speaking off laying on off hands, can make nothing for the election off the church: I beseech yow syr how do yow prove / that Timothy hath the choice of ministers? ys it not by thes words / that he is bidden not to lay on his hands? and have yow not said / that by the laying on off hands / the whole solemnity off creatinge ministers is understanded? this is fast and lose / and not only as Teconius said / that that we will is holy: but when we will / and as longe as we will. Belike the laying on off hands signifieth nothing / or if it do / and not the consent off the people: Why doth not the Answ. tell us what?

And where he goeth about to find some difference in this / and that which I say off the laying on of hands by the Eldershippe / and heroff besides the peintinge off his mergente / speaketh ones / twice / and the third time / according to his old manner of repeticiōs: He purposely as seemeth / passeth by my answer to that objection / that not the people, but certain that is to say the elders in the name off the people, did lay on their hands: as it is to be seen in other places / where the governors in the name off all the people / lay on their hands upon the sacrifice for sin. Where yow will me to speak in good earneste: If I had only to do with such a trifler / I would either answer nothing / or else as such a one is worthy: but because I have to do with the church off God / for judgment off the judicial / and Ceremonial law / and for proof off your untrue dealing: I refer my self to that I have said before.

If this I have alleged off laying on off hands upon the ordained / be a Ceremonial law / which took ende by the coming off our Savior Christ: then the Apostles were injurious unto his death / that translated that Ceremony from the Jews under the law / into the church under the Gospel. Therefore in this point yow have to do with the Apostles / and not with me. For as under the law the governors / and the people consentinge into one action / testified the same by laying on off hands off the governors only: so under the Gospel the elders / and people consentinge in the election off one / do testify it by laying on off hands off the Elders only.

Where yow would prove yt abrogated / because yt yt is joined with other things, which are abrogated: I have shown howe that is an engyne / to wreste out off the hands off the church / all the moral laws that ever were written. Where yow say / there could be no election off the people in the leuytes, for that God had chosen them: Yow might have understanded / that although the tribe of Leuy only were used to the ministry / yet all that tribe / was not applied that ways: but as many as were thought enough to supply that office / and those also not at all adventure / but by choice according to their ability. I fear not Master W. the judgment off the greatest enemies I have / and friends yow have / in this cause: but that their own consciences shall witness withe me / off my faithful alledginge off the scriptures, and off your either notable ignorance / or very evil conscience.

And in thes iestes off yowres / and accusations off my byndinge men unto the Ceremonial law / and bringing them to Judaism, and fetchinge off a mandatum owt off the ceremonial law: Were yow not a fraide by my sides / to thrust thorowghe Cyprian? Who fetcheth his proof for the election off the ministry by the voice off the people / out off the book off numbers / where mention is made also off the priests garments which was ceremonial. Or were yow not afraid thus to handle Master Calvin? His proof is fetched owt off Leviticus / whose special argument is to handell ceremonies and might not I fetch a commandment out off numbers / which hath another scope? He only vppō that it was commanded / that Moses should bring the Levites before the congregation, concluded that the people's consent ought to be had, in the ministers choice: and was yt not lawful for me having the same ground / and further also the comaundement that the people should lay on their hands / to conclude as much? He toke his place from thence / where nether in the chapiters before / nor in that out of the which he fetcheth this there is any thing but ceremonial: And was it not lawful for me to take this sentence / because other things in this chap. were ceremonial / but that I must needs be thus jested on / and my discretion so greatly required / in handlinge the scripture? Therefore I say that I citing this place am no more Jewish / then the Apostles / then Cyprian / then Calvin.

Where I alleged for the establishing off that which he calleth a mandatum owt off the ceremonial law, that the ground of children's baptism, standeth upon the ceremony off Circumcision: He answering that circumcision was a figure off baptism, but that the Levitical priesthood was no figure off the Ministry off the Gospel, is deceived. For certain things in the Ministry off the law / were figures off things in the Ministry off the Gospel: as their anointinge / signified that none may be admitted unto the ministry off the Gospel / but those which have gifts meet for that purpose / as our Savior Christ him self out off Isaiah expoundeth yt. Even their sacrifices (which off all other things are furthest from the ministry of the gospel) shadowed out the mortyfyinge off sin / by the sword off the word off God: that the ministers might offer the people unto God / an acceptable sacrifice through Jesus Christ / as appeareth by Saint Paul. And the laws off the leuiticall priesthood / are not only figures off our ministry: but often times also / rules to direct yt by. therefore as off that Aaron toke not upon him the priesthood / before he was called off God / the writer unto the Hebrews concluded / the calling off our Savior Christ to his priesthood / so far different from the priesthood off Aaron: so we conclude / that no man may put his foot into the ministry / unless he be called. Thes arguments if Master W. answer be good / are avoided with a floute / that they be a mandatum out off the books off Leviticus, and Nombers: that they carry us to Judaism, &c.

Yt is well the D. hath not to do with the Anabaptists. For he is like enough to betray that cause / which having so sure grounds in the scripture▪ is here by him laid open / to their mockery. For he saith / that the 28. off S. Matthew is a general ground to prove the baptism off Children: When our Savior Christ speaketh there only off those which were off discretion / as appeareth by that he biddeth them baptize those / whom they have made scolers off Christ by their doctrine. And therefore for so much as the Apostles could not teache children / nor could not make them disciples by teaching before their baptism: yt is manifest that he speaketh not there off children's baptism. And this might he have learned for his use / in the same book off Zwingli / out of which he hath taken so many things to no purpose. And it is not only Master Zwingli answer / but other learned men's which have had to do with that sect. As for the promise alleged / that god is our God, and the God of our seed, albeit that be the ground / whereupon the holy sacrament off Baptism is ministered unto infantes: yet yt is not sufficient / without addinge the commandment off God / touching the circumcision off young children. For iff the lord having given that promise unto Abraham / had commanded no circumcision at all / or had only commanded yt to be given / to those off discretion: yt had not been lawful for Abraham to have circumcised his infantes / yet they should have remained under the promise. So that whether Yow will / or no: we must come to reason from circumcision unto baptism. Neither is that yow allege / of Circumcision to have been a figure off baptism, sufficient to deliver yow out off the nets / wherewith yow snare your self. For albeit yt be a figure off baptism: yet yt is aceremonie / and a principal parte off the ceremonial law: and your answer is general against all reasoninge from the ceremonial law / unto that which is established under the gospel. Therefore I uphold still / that your answers here, and in other places / tend to spoil us off diverse pillars, and principal buttresses off our religion.

Where he saithe / he condemnethe not other churches, which have appointed other orders of electing pastors: I report me to the reader / whether the words be general / and whether the reasons he alledgeth for that purpose / be likewise. Nether can the D. show any reason why in Geneva / why in whole Dominions in Germany / Why in Scotland / in France also in the time off their peace / this order off election by the consent off the people / should be good / and pernicious in England. Which notwithstanding ought to have been shown / if there be any.

I expounded the word owght, as reason whereof the law is founded / and experience which is often times the interpreter off the law / tawgte me / to show that where the consent off all cannot be had▪ there the thing should pass / by the moste parte of those which have interest. And where yow affirm / that lawiers do say, that that sentence is to be understanded of compartners, or iointe tenantes in some house, or possession, and not off the interest off bodies politic: I am well content they be interpreters of the law which they profess / and therefore iff that be shown me / I will rest in that interpretation. But the reason assigned / that it seldom cometh to pas that they will all consent / semethe not so strong: considering that there is not so great violence done unto the words off the law / which may not be found in other places / if by the word all, the moste parte be understanded. Especially when allthowghe all do not agree: yet all have had free voice in that matter.

And where yow say / that even that law admitteth diverse exceptions: that is not material. For I lay not so much weight of this sentence / as though the cause should rise / and fall with it. I mente that as much credit might grow unto the cause by this / as by a proverb which is true For the moste part: off which kind off reasons not only orators / but the scripture yt self diverse times useth. And therefore if I gain by this law / that the ordinary choice off ministers / owght to be by the people: I hath at I looked for. But yt is to be observed / that where the A found fault with me / for mitigatinge the necessity off the word ought, by this exception if it may be: he notwithstanding alledgeth four exceptions, whereby the necessity which he saithe that word importeth / is quite overthrown. And if those conditions be true: then be like I did well understand the word ought, the understanding whereof he cannot aforde me. Yt is well you be no lawyer. For yowe that are so liberal off a dinners talk / as to tell us off Many together, and Many senerally, with so many exceptions to so small purpose: if yow had been studied that ways / would have troubled us all. for then yt is like we should have had always Caesar / for Christ / and Paul the lawyer / for Saint Paul the Apostle.

But mark what a trymme way he hath found / to prove that the whole parish chooseth when / the biship only chusethe: that they are willing to have him / whom they are compelled whether they will or no / to receive. Yea and not only that / but that every minister is chosen by the whole realm, that is to say by those which never saw him / nor heard off him. But hath he forgotten first that it is our controversy / whether the parliament have doon well / in establishing off such an order off making ministers and whether this egg off the bishops election / laid in propery / could by the sitting upon off the Parliament (although never so godly) leese the poisoned nature it had before. If that be not agreed / this devise that the people choose when the bishop, bebecause yt was so ordained by all estates) serveth not. This liberty as hath been shown / is a piece off the liberties which Christ hath purchased unto his churches / by the sheddinge off his precious blood: wherein they owght to have stood / and which is no more lawful for them to alienate / or set over to others: then to give away the inheritance of the kingdom of heaven / whereunto this is annexed.

Moreover we speak off an electiō / wherein consent is to be given / as often as the church is destitute off a minister: and he off consent ones given forever. We off an election which is passed / by all the howsholders off every church: he off that which was passed / by a few burgeses in the whole realm. We off a free election: and he off an election wherein yt is by your leave / against your will. Now the Papists may clap their hands / for against all the arguments that Master Calvin / Beza / Bullinger / Zwingli / and others bring to prove / that the church ought to have right in the election off their minister / and that yt belongeth not to one biship to choose a minister: they may answer / that the bishop chooseth not but the church / yea the whole realm. For the prince / and the people / and the whole lande have given that pour unto the Pope / and the pope to him: so that whatsoever is doon in that election by the bishop / is doon by the people. But see howe I forget myself / which allege this unto him as a great absurdity / whose case in this question / is all one with the Papists: yet even with him / it shall be sufficient to untie the bande, which we have bound our selves with, unless he will have the election still continue in the Popes hands.

And indeed he calleth us here / to the consideration off our sins: whereby we have thus prodigally wasted / and givē into the hands of strangers / the liberties which were bowght with so great a price. And we have better cause to think the earnestlier off them / for so much as the Answ. lawgheth us to scorn / and would make us believe that we consent to elections when we are a sleep / that we choose those / whom we refuse: and so other eatinge the kernels / he maketh us not a diner / but a feast with the shells.

To all thes accusations off the A. whereby he chargeth the civil elections off bodies politic / if I should answer that The disorder off the bishops election is such, the peace with Satan / and sin / and contention with all goodness that hath / and daily doth issue by them into all the partes off the Realm / so horrible / the ambition of the person standing in election so shameless / the corruption off some / the partial affection off others to their kinsfolk, their servants / their servants friends / the carelessness of others / in some the wāte of sufficient knowledge / in other some of sincerity / and pureness of doctrine / to be short in all the want of dew consyderatiō of weightynes of that ministry / is so apparent: that as that manner off election for necessary causes / is altered in the best ordered churches in Europe / so it is desired to be altered, in the church of England / by those which be wise, godly, and learned, and by those which love the godly quietness, and prosperity off the church: and that experience crieth that those are the worthiest ministers / most apteste to set forth the glory off God / must profitableste for the church / which are chosen with the consent of the people: I say if I should answer thus / I dowte not but all the world will witness with me / that I have iuster cause thus to speak off the bishops elections off ministers: then the A. hath to speak so slanderously / off civil elections made by consent in towns / and cities. God be praised this cause off discipline we maintain / hath been / and by God's grace shall be upholden / without towche off any lawful estate / or form off government off common wealth: but yt appeareth that the Answ. cannot maintain his cause / without open oppugninge off one off them. And therefore to keep the bishop in his throne / down must go all elections by many / and by the same reason all trials off controversies by many / all determinations / and judgments by many / and in a word the whole estate almost off our common wealth / must be removed. Yow ac • e us off confoundinge the common wealth / which yow are never hable to prove: here yow are taken in the very act doing / not by conclusion / or implication / but by a flatt / and direct affirmation. I doubt not that wise men do see your folie / which being so unskillful of the government of the church / the knowledge whereof you do profess: will take upon yow as Phormio unto Haniball / to prescribe what form of government / must be used in the common wealth. And if it were not beside my profession / I could show that it agreeth moste both with the definition of a cytisen / which those give which handell this matter / and with the practice off the best governed cities / that the citizens should have this interest off choice off their Mayors / and Bailifes: confirmed by experience off dangerous seditions / and seperatiōs from the common wealth / which have happened by abridginge the people off this / and such liberties. But for so much as yt belongethe not unto a divine / to medle with those / but to content him self with what form off government soever (so it be lawful) thought good to those / to whom the orderinge of that doth pertain: I leave to speak of that matter. But a man may smell the D. far off. For this is put in for defense off that spoil / which he / and others by untrue surmises / moste unnaturally made in the university / when to the end the Idleness / covetousness / and ambition of certain might be the more secure / and without check they by their longe / and crooked talones / ceased upon the authority off the University Senate.

But because he casteth so scornfully away / those reasons which are alleged by me: I would know what he will answer to Master Martyr / who useth the same reason I have here / saying that it is no marvel, that the church hath this righte to choose her ministers: seeing the civil laws do give this pour to incorporate towns, to choose their Physicians, and Scolemaisters.

Where he saith / that the multitude is for the moste parte ignorant, careless, and oftentimes evil disposed, and commonly led by affection, hatred, fear, &c. There is no vice which any one off the church is subject unto / but the biship is subject unto the same. Nether i • there any affection enemy unto a good election / whereof the bishop is not liker to be ouercomed: then either the whole church / or the greatest parte thereof.

What need this going about the bushe? I speak off the visible church / called by the preaching off the gospel: not off those whose calling is yet hidden / and folded up in God's electiō. And of those I say / not as yow (for what can yow else do:) untruly report / that they cannot err in choosing their pastor: but that they are not such: ignorant dottrels / as yow would make us believe / and such as have no taste to discern between good and bad / holy and unholy. And this knowledge / and discretion off good and evil / is not only in those which are effectually called: but in those also which have only the outward calling / without the spirit off sanctification / and adoption off the children off God. So that the pretence off such ignorance as yow speak off / cannot fall into any which are off the visible church off God. The D. could not hale in the corrupt interpretation off the pope in this place / to help to make up his answer / but he must ascribe a notable untruth unto me / that I should go about to prove, that the church cannot err in the election off the minister. Where have I pretended any such thing? or what need have I to prove that? As if I could no otherwise drive the biship from this sole election / unless I could prove that the people cannot err in their electiō: Or as if bishops elections were without danger off error / so that he which will change them / must be driven to seek for such electors / as no error can take hold off. And iff any bars were strong enough / to keep your tongue from this untrue dealing: my words which follow by and by after / wherein I confess the church may err, had been sufficient to restrain yt.

Againste my reasons here be bare words / that the pastors are never the worse loved, that are thrust upon them. I could have as well as yow alleged the experience in other places / if all men could have seen yt: and have referred them to the manifold fi • tes in law between the pastor / and the people in our churches. How often shall I tell him that the papists are not the church / nor off the church off Christ: and therefore not to be suffered / to have to do with the election off the minister? this needed he not to have asked / if he had had his (to be short) which he repeteth so often / in any commendation. He asketh / whether men always continue in love, off those whom they have chosen. yt is easier to continue love / where love is: then both to fall into love of him whom they could not away with / and also to continue the course off that love still. And if the not seruinge off their affections, breed hatered towards him whom they love: yt will much more make yt flame against him / against whom yt was before kindled.

But still the A. imagineth off the church as off dogs / and which receiuinge meat at the hand off their pastor / turn again upon him / and rent him: and not as sheep which hear the voice off their pastor. And although there be some hypocrites vhhich do so: yet all the church doth not so. And therefore for their sakes / and for the giuinge the deeper root off love in their hearts towards the pastor: yt is meet that this way off free consent should be taken. As for the Hypocrites / when they shall cease to love their pastors / for rebukinge their faults: that shall be to the increase of godes glory. Forsomuch as they are by so much more inexcusable before God: as they have refused his admonition / whom they them selves chose for that purpose. And not that only / but the hatred conceived off that duty off the minister / shall be bridled / and holden in rather by •• e remembrance off the judgment / which he once in token off good will gave off him. For even the earthely / and natural man hath this in him / that whom he hath once loved: him if he hate afterward / unless yt be for some thing apparently worthy off hatred / he will be loath to utter it. And although for that his manners please him not / he cannot love him yet leste he should appear inconstante / and deceived in his choice: he will pretend to love him still. So that the consent off the church in the election of the ministry / being profitable unto the godly / and those which are true sheep / that their love may abound towards their minister / and in respect off the Hypocrites / and goats / that they may be more inexcusable before God / and less hurtefull to men: thes reasons stand still untouched off the A.

Yt is an easy thing for M. D. Which neither proveth / nor improueth any thing by scripture / to ask by what scripture prove, that if the parish choose an vnfitt minister: the ministers, and elders of the churches should advertise, &c. The scripture I prove yt by ys / that Saint Paul when he teacheth that all the faithful are members off one mystical body off Christ / which ought to have a mutual care one off another: laid the foundations off this polity. for as in the body off one particular church / every faithful man compared with another in the same / is a member one off a nother: so in a more general body off a whole Realm / every particular church compared with other / is likewise member of them. therefore as nature teacheth my hand to help the disorder which is in another parte of my body: so the spirit of God out of his word / through a fellow feelinge teachetche one church to stretch out her hand / to put a way as yt can / the evil which yt seethe approach unto another. And therefore when the scripture willeth that one should admonish another / it is not only a commandment to every singular man / towards his fellow: but also to one whole company / towards another society.

And off this care extended so far that one church hath sent to admonish another / we have example in the epistle to the Corinthes: where the Macedonian churches sent their ambassadors with Saint Paul's Epistle / both to move the Corinthians to liberality towards the poor / and to receive that which was given by the church unto their use. And this may serve to prove / that one church owght to admonish a nother: and therefore also those which are next / as those which are fitteste for that purpose.

That from the admonitiō off the churches, yt is meet to come to synodes, if the judgment off the churches be contemned: may beshewed by proportiō / from the place of our Savior Christ in Saint Matthew. For as when one brother is not moved with the admonition of two / or three / the matter must be referred unto the church / to see whether the majesty of it will move him / whom the authority off two or three would not: even so it is meet that the church / that maketh light off the judgment off two or three churches / should be pressed with the judgments off the diocese or province / as shall be in that behalffe advised. And if I were in this point destitute off the word off God: yet the naked examples off the reformed churches / owght to weighe down a popish custom.

And that the magistrate ought to lay to his hand, iff the admonitions take not place: it is manifest by the reason which is alleged. I have looked master Zwingli Ecclesiast over, and over again. The sum whereof is / that none should take upon him any ministry / which is not called of some church / and of the ministers nere about / contrary to the practice off the anabaptistes: which entered into all churches / and sometime put the pastor beside the pulpet / from which whether yow / or we be further / let the reader judge.

Where yow say / that I forgett my self which suppose now the church may err, that said before yt was spiritual, and judgeth all things: if yow could forget this untrue dealing / I remembered myself well enough. Thes cauilles which come so often / without any color off truth / are utterly unworthy off answer: but as I have said in another place / require rather a censor / then a disputer. Howbeit because there is nothing so unsavory / which some taste may not be abused by. I have answered yt before.

There is nothing so easy which is not hard / to him that is unwilling. And therefore the A as Solomon's sluggard, saith that the Lion whose delight is in the foreste / and in the wilderness / is in the high streat, or in the burse: that is to say / maketh difficulties where none is. And as this partly cometh of his unwillingness: so diverse of thes questions (if he do not dissemble) come of want off knowledge / not only of the government of the churches now / but off all aunciete times. For he asketh / who shall complain off the fault committed in the election, to the churches by? if the elders to whom that care especially appertaineth / do not: others owght whō that disorder offendeth. Ther needeth no calling together, and therefore no danger off tumulte, disorder, confusion, charges, partes taking, runninge up and down, loss off time, offense, quarrels: yt is enough that yt be done by the eldership off the churches and if were needful to have the churches / whole consent: it might be done in ordinary meetinge for the service of god / without any of those things which the D. imagineth. The churches may admonish by their several / or common letters emōgeste thē. But ask me not who shall carry the letter / what he shall have for his pains / whether he shall ride / or go a foot: which yow might as well / as those fond questions which you have moved.

It is meet the provincial Synods be certain / and standing / as often also as may be conveniently: and it was ordained as I think in one of the African Councils / that their should be at the leste / two or three every year. So there shall be as spedie provision off a pastor for the church / in such cases off difference: as now when they be without a pastor six whole months. For the questions who shall summon the Synods, and in what place they shall be holden: they pertain not to this questiō / unless the A. will have no Synods at all. for if he admit them: the sum̄oner / and the place which are meet for the assemble generally / and for the decidinge off all causes which fall into the consideracion off the Synod / are meet also for this cause. And where he asketh what if the prince do not his duty: then yt is as if there were no godly magistrate / then yt is with them as if such a disorder should happen under an unchristian prince: and then the people shall perish in their sins / but their blood shall be required at his hand. But still the A. seethe not how he reasoneth against him self. For if none of the bishops off the foresaid parishes / none off the elders / neither those bishops and elders which emongeste the rest / and in the name off all are chosen as the flowers out of the province / and sent to the Synod / nor the magistrate / I say if none off all thes / nor all thes together do their duty: how shall we think that the biship will do it? And iff he do yt in appoinctinge a fit biship for the parish / and the parish will not admit him / but take one which is unmeet off their own choice: what remedy hath he / when he is forsaken off the magistrate? Thus as shortly as I could / I have answered this legion off questions: and if my answer in speaking off things so common / be tedious: take thyself good reader unto the A. which merueileth at them / as if they came out off India.

Where he saithe / I thus appointe the Prince a good office: I have shown that the scripture appointeth yt / and not I: and it is the moste honorable office which the Prince can have / to see the churches be kept in good order: nether taketh yt any thing from the royal estate that he must obey / and serve the lord. And where he saithe / by this means the Prince must stand, and loke on all this while, and in the ende lay to his hand: I answer / that whereas thes ways off admonition by the churches / and Synod are sent before his authority: yt serveth not only for the ease off the magistrate / whilst that after this sort oftentimes / the difference is ended before it come to him: but also agreeth better with the manner off Physic / which owght to be used in such diseases. For that which may be conveniently won with a word / should not be gotten by the sword: and that which may begotten to be done with conscience / should not be essaied by compulsion. Yowr slander (that we give no more to the civil magistrate, then the papists) so often repeated / is already / and god willing shall be more / apparent. Yt is also a notable / and an impudente slander / that the Magistrate must only at the commandment of the seniors, execute such laws as they have devised: where as we hold / that if all the bishops / and elders in the realm / would decree unlawful things / the Prince owght to make them void: and that he may / and owght to punish all ecclesiastical persons / which walk disorderly. Likewise yt is a fond dream / of surcharginge the Prince with thes matters: as though the Princes authority / necessarily derived unto diverse in every shire / for other affairs off government / may not likewise depart also this care unto them.

Therefore if yow have no better exceptions then these: I am not afraid / still to commit my reasons to the judgment / not only of the godly / which rest in authority of the word / but even off the wise / and reasonable man / which maketh his account of likelihoodes.

THes high words / that he remembereth no learned writer new nor old, which denieth that there were few professors of the gospel in the Apostles times, in respect off those profess now: what have they beside a crake? And in respect off the old writers / yt is absurdly said. For howe could they compare the number of the professors of our times, with those which were in the primitive churches / unless they should prophecy: seeing they were dead long before? And maketh yt for yow / if the new writers do not deny this? Iff it he no good reason from the scripture negatively, in those things which yt professeth to speak off: is it good from other writers / and frō one parte off them / in things which they make no profession of▪ I looked therefore yow should have browghtesome / which by affirming that yow say: might if not make it true / yet at the leste seem true. I could off your challenge take occasion / to bring all the peregrination off Saint Paul / declared in the Act. Epistles / and especially in the 15. Rom. drawn to my hand / by which appeareth that he for his parte only / had caused the Gospel to sound in more then half off the world. I could also fetch in Euseb. and Jerome / which testify what the other Apostles did for their parte. I propounded that which I said without proof, because the things are manifestly known / and such as cannot be denied: yow affirm without all proof that in controversy / and wheruppon your cause in your judgment dependeth / that no one parte off the world, no one city, no one the lease town, received the gospel wholly in the Apostles time.

If I should suffer yow to go away with this great / and ungrounded sainge: yet thereby cannot be concluded / that there are more Christians now in a parte off Europe, then was throwghoute the world in the Apostles time. But I require proof of that yow set down so precisely / not only because I think yow cannot warrant yt by any: but also because I have somewhat to except against yt. For yt may appear that Samaria did wholly receive the gospel. For beside that yt is recited / that with one accord the multitudes gave heed unto that Philipp said: S. Luke declaringe in the 10. and 11. verses / that all that were in Samaria from the little to the great / were bewitched with the inchaunmentes off Simon: addeth in the 12. verse / that when they believed they were baptized. This having relation unto that which goeth before / which is that all were abused by the magycian: yt followeth that the whole city received the gospel. Wherunto may be referred the emulation between Jerusalem / and Samaria: whereby yt came to pass that the gospel thrust out off Jerusalem / was both easilier / and more generally received in Samaria. Lykewise that yt is said in the 13. verse / that even Simon him self off all other moste untoward / believed: and that in the 14. ver. that Samaria had received the word off God, and not many in Samaria / as he speaketh off other places / where the Gospel was but in parte received. If one except / that it is not like every singular person turned / at the preaching off Philip: I answer that in such straight signification of all / there shall be at this day found no kingdom / and almost no city which hath received the gospel. But if the whole profession off the gospel / be esteemed off that which is done by the body / and state of the city: yt seemeth that the words off Saint Luke will bear out / a whole / and general profession at the lease off the moste parte / which yow deny. And if it be true that Euseb. writeth / we have a manifest testimony off the whole receiving off the gospel in the city off the Edissens / which was won unto the Gospel by the preaching off Thaddeus / sent to king Agbarus by Thomas the Apostle: off whom yt is written / that he brought all to the knowledge of the gospel / and that the whole city of the Edissens, having at that time givē her name unto the profession off Christ, so continued unto the time wherein Eusebius wrote.

Where yow would seem to say some great matter / when yow add not at Jerusalem: yt is as much as if yow should say / that no town received the gospel / because Jerusalem the moste murderinge town in the whole world / did not: whose rebellion / and for it destruction / being foretold off our Sau. Christ / must needs follow. For touching the Apostles abode there / it was not for the hope off any plentiful harvest to be reaped in that city: But partly for that the Jews / unto whom they were sent to preach first / had their concourse thither from all corners of the world: partly to fulfill the prophecy / off the sound of the gospel from Zion / into all partes of the world: and thirdly to prepare a readier passage / for his heavy judgments to come upon that city.

That also also which yow add / that the tenthe parte off the inhabitants off Ephesus, Antioch, and Rome, was not Christian in the Apostles times: is only said / and it is much for yow to speak so largely off the tenthe / not hable to prove the fyueth / or third. And although yt cannot be certainly known / what number of believers were at thes places: yet it may be by all likelihood shown / that it is untrue especially off the two first. Of Antioch we read / that when they which were scattered by persecution moved in Jerusalem / preached there: the hand off the Lord was with them, and a great number beleuinge turned unto the lord. And in the 24. verse yt is said / that at the preaching off Barnabas / there was a great multitude added unto the lord. And yet in the 26. verse yt is declared / that afterward Barnabas procuringe Saint Paul's coming thither / they both together abiding there by the space off one whole year / taught a great multitude. Here is mention off three great multitudes / which at several times were turned unto the lord in that city: and how dare yow yet say / that all thes were not the tenth parte? Of Ephesus also it is written / that the fruit off S. Paul's preaching there by the space of two years / was so great / that the books off those which had exercised curiouse / and unlawful arts / were bourned in the sight off all men: which could not be done without great danger unto the church / unless the greatest parte off the city had believed. Which may yet more appear / for so much as Demetrius the siluersmythe / affirmeth that the art of making shrines, and Dianas temple, was in danger to be set at nothing.

And as the A. is to narrow / in esteming the fruit of the Apostles preaching / accompanied with such pour off miracles / and diversities off gifts off the holy ghost / whereby were gathered greater numbers off professors off the gospel / then now by the simple preaching off the word: so in his account off the number off professors off the Gospel now / he is marvelously lauishe. For where are those whole contreis, nations, and kingdoms which profess Christ? If he take in the Papists to make up his reckuinge / they will not be received. For we speak off the church off Christ / and off those which embrace the gospel: and so himself had put yt in his answer to the admonition. The papists therefore / which pretendinge the name of Christ / persequute the gospel / are the Synagogue off Satan / and must in this account off Christians / be shut out: howsoever by changing off the professors off the gospel, into those which profess Christ, yow would seem to wind them in The mixture which was in the Apostles times / off professors off the gospel / with those which were professed enemies unto yt / being yet in those kingdoms yow speak of: yow are so far from showing / that the multitude off professors off the gospel in Europe / is greater now then yt was in then in all Asia / Afric / and Europe: that yow do not so much as show / that the number off Christians in Europe yt self / is now greater then in time off the Apostles.

When it is said / that the whole church assembled for election: all men know that thereby is mente / that particular company off professors off the gospel / which dwellinge nigh together / make one assembly: and therefore that yow write off the impossibility, off gathering all the church scattered through out the whole world into one place, is but a mere daliance. Yow say / they might well meet without confusion in the Apostles times, which cannot be nows: the reason yow assign / in the fewnes in one place off the professors then, and multitude now. Althowghe yt be granted that there are moe now in the cities / then were then: and that be given yow too / that the multitude ought to change the form off elections (neither whereof yow are hable to show): yet yt still fallethe out against yow. For allbeit there be moe professors in a city then were: yt followeth not / that there are moe belonging unto one assembly / then there were thē. Wherein I will go no further / thē to the example of the church / which yow allege to have chosen the deacons: where could hardly be less then six thowsande persons / seeing that at the second sermon of Saint Peter / there being five thowsande / it is affirmed afterward that multitudes off men / and women were added. Now where shall yow have lightly in the cities which profess the gospel / one only church of so many thousand persons? considering that for the greater commodity of meeting / and governing the whole mass off Christians in one city / yt is divided into several churches / as it were flocks into several feedinges. And if yow would have proved any thing / yow should not have considered howe the number off Christians are increased in their cities: but howe they are increased in their churches. And so yow should have found that by your own reason / the elections in the time off persecution / ought rather to have been made by one / and the elections now / by many: seeing in persecuted churches / for wāte off the commodity off dividing them selves into proportionable assemblies: the number being more / the danger off tumulte / and confusion / must by your own saying be greater.

Yow say yt is a very good reason / that because the church was under the cross, therefore yt was few in number in comparison: but yow answer not the authority which I alleged / touching the increase off the children of Israel / more under the cross / then in prosperity. The reason yow add / off many hypocrites in the peace of the church, hath small force. For that there are in persecuted churches many hypocrites / may appear by the Israelites / which dred in persecution / made often rebellions in the wilderness: likewise by the complaints off S. Paul / that all sought their own not Christ's / that all were turned from him.

That one example only / is hable to overthrow that which yow put so generally: yet your one example off London, is not hable to confirm your purpose: yt serveth yow therefore for a pinche at the city / and for no reason off your cause. And albeit the backslyding from the Gospel / was through the realm very horrible in Queen Mary's days: yet there is no cause to pick Londō out as the worst / seeing there were great numbers there / which with hasarde off all they had / and of their lives / frequented assemblies where the word off God was truly preached / and the Sacraments purely administered: the like meetings being rarely found in other places / no (to our own shame be yt spokē) not in the university / where of moste righte / they should have been.

What gain yow by that the church was diminished in Jerusalem? seeing the decrease of one church / was the increase off diverse other / whereunto those off Ierusalē adjoined them selves. Therefore yow conclude not well / in sainge that particular churches by persecutions are diminished, because one church off Jerusalem was so: no more thē yow can say / that a man hath a white head / because he hath one white hear on his head. but I may rather say / that by persecution the particular churches are increased / for so much as Samaria / and other churches were by that flight of Jerusalem / partly adorned with teachers / partly augmented in disciples. And thereby is confirmed that I have set down / off the marvelous spawn off the church under the cross: both because everyone driven from Jerusalem / was as good seed which brought his hundredth / or fifty fold: and for that after Jerusalem was delivered of that birthe / she conceived again / and browghtforthe (as may appear) a greater number then before.

What are my words werby I affirm / that the churches in time off persecution meet often, and keep together? yt is that I precisely deny. Verily this is too homelie rhetoric / to affirm I say / that which I manifestly deny. And although it be more clearer then the son̄e / that a smaller number may better know one a nother / then a great: those which dwell nere one to a nother / then that dwell far of / and scattered: those which meet oftener / then which meet seldomer: yet the A. dowbteth not to say / that the contrary of this is a known truth. Wher he alledgeth for proof / the often conference, and trial off everyone before they be received: For the first / yt may be easily understanded / that seeing yt is dangerous for them to meet together / godly polity doth teache them / to break their companies as soon as they may conveniently. And therefore the public action ended / off preaching / praying / and receiving the Sacraments: the conference which may be / and is commonly in the churches peace / one withe another / through fear off the danger / which may come off being seen man it together / is cut off. As for the knowledge by trial off those which are received into the church / if he knew that yt comethe only off the report off two / or three / which give testimony off those which are to be received: and that yt extendeth not to any understanding given to the church / off his gifts either of teaching / or government / but only that he is a faithful man: I say if he knew thes things / or knowing thē would acknowledge them: there should be no cause upon confidence off that trial / to fasten such knowledge one of a nother, in a church persecuted.

Before I further answer the D. reason / touching the change of the manners of the Christians in times off peace / from that they were under persecution: understand good reader / that this is the very reason off the archpapist Hosius / against the election off the church: which affirmeth that there is greater gravity / and constantie in the Christians under persecution / and therefore that this manner off election by the bishop / was brought in. now to Hosius / and the D. I answer / that when wickedness breaketh into open actions / then they are no more Hypocrites / but openly wicked / and such as owght not only be taken heed off: but without speedy amendment / removed. I grant yt is no shame to the churches to have Hypocrites / for as much as the judgment off man cannot discern them / and off them and none other is the parable off tares / which forbiddeth weeding until the day off harvest: and they are only those which cannot be rooted out. But to say that beside those which are corrupt in religion, yt is full off dronkardes, whoremongers, &c. Yt is more then ever S. Paul reproached any the moste diffigured churches / he wrote unto. For how many such persons as be found in her: so many botches hath she / which do not only stain her beauty / but put her in hazarde off her life. And if Sainte Paul for one unclean person / thought that all the Corinthians had good cause of mourning: rivers off tears in every man's head / are not sufficient for us to bewail / the estate which Master D. telleth us we be in: which by his saying / have few sober / few chaste / &c.

I leave to the reader how evil the three places off Sainte Matthew / are patched up together: and how there is never a one off them / which proveth that he taketh in hand / that there be in the church open offenders / which cannot be rooted out. I give warning only to the simple reader / that the A. being deceived in interpretation off the parable off the sower / do not also deceive him. For there is nothing les meant / then that where one hearethe the word profitably, three do the contrary, which is both courious / and uncomfortable: only he showeth / that off four kinds off hearers / one only receiveth fruit: but off the number off those which hear fruictfully / or otherwise / not a word. And it may be for any thing our Savior Christ setteth down / that in some places / that one sort of men which hear with fruit are moe in number / then all the other three which hear without fruit. If we should say that there is no church where such faults be / or that for such faults we should make a departure from the church: thes charges off Anabaptistry which sound so often / and so full in your mouth • / might have place. But that it is an Anabap • istic • l cavil to say / that the multitude and swarm off known / and open faults / argue want off good government / and wholesome discipline in the church: yow are never able to show / nether your self by argument / nor out of Master Bull. or any other godly writer. Shall there be no ende off this unfaithful dealing? Where in a syllable ys yt said / that the gospel cannot be sincerely preached where great corruption off manners doth appear: yet whilst yow confute this / Yow would make men believe that we affirm yt.

When I say there be no known drunkards / or whoremongers in the church: I speak off that which should be / unto which meaning the tenure off my disputation would have led yow / if yow had been willing to follow. For yow opposinge that for a bar unto the people's election / theffecte off my answer was: that yt is not meet to take advantage off this / that there be many such dronkardes / and whore mongers: seeing they both may / and ought either be brought to repentance / and so are none such as they were / or thrust out of the church / and so not hinder the election. This my meaning was clear / and the man̄er of speech if it had been simply considered / without circumstances restraining to this meaning / is such / as the scripture doth admit. As when Paul saithe / that the churchs of God have no custom to cōtend: he setteth forth not that which always cometh to pas but what ought to be always. For it may be that contention may cōtinew in a church many years: and yet it not cease to be the church of God. The prosperite of the Gospel / sheilded by authority of the Christian magistrate / draweth by no necessity with it / such abundance of wicked as yow suppose. for although hypocrisy may be more then under persecution / yet known wickedness / of whoredom / drunkenness / &c. may be easilier purged out off the church / under a Christian magistrate. So that the swarm off such wickedness under the Christian magistate / more then when there was none / is not the fault off the time / but off the governors off church / or common wealth / or both. As for hypocrites / I have shown that there is not so great danger in them: considering that their owteward doings are the same with the children off God / and the difference is only in the heart. Which although yow deny: yet my reason drawn of the nature off an hypocrite / yow do quite pass by.

That which yow call the prosperity, might well be called the cross / and whip of the gospel: if it drew such a tail off sin / as yow suppose. For if under a Christian Magistrate / either always / or for the moste parte / not only the number off hypocrites / but of barefaced / and know̄ wicked / should be multiplied: and not that only / but the good them selves should wax worse: that time might peradventure after a sort / be called the prosperity of those which profess the gospel: but how the gospel may be said thē to prosper / which is so many ways plucked down / I cannot understand. And this is clean contrary to the fruictes of peace / which the scripture declareth. The Prophet as soon as he had spokē of peace / which should be published amongst the Jews: addeth that Judah should then keep her solemn feasts, perform her vows, because the wicked enemy off the church, was cut off. Whereby he doth not only show / that the ende off the peace of the church / is to serve god more wholly then before: but also that the peace gave them more commodity off seruinge off God / then they could have in time of persecution. And if yow reply that so it should be / but it is not: the answer is / if it be not so / yt is through the great / and inexcusable fault off all / and governors especially: which having moe means to entertain all godliness / suffer it to go to wrack.

But that peace off it self is an aide to godly increase / and confirmation off the church: yt is manifest / by that all the churches in Jury, Galilee, and Samaria, being in peace were edified, and walking in the fear off God, were multiplied. Now if they in the time off peace multiplied / having no further aide of the magistrate / then that he hurt them not: what condemnatiō shall yt be / if our churches which have assistance off the magistrate / cannot uphold them in that fear off God / but they must fall into such riot / as the A. supposeth? And if multiplying off open wickedness / and decrease of former godliness were so general / and so incident to the peace off the gospel / as yow pretend: there is no cause why we should pray so earnestly / and often for it / nai rather there should be good cause / off praying against it. For when it is givē us of God / partly for our ease / and especially for the glory of God in increase of all virtue: the chief parte which is the glory off God / being by yow shut out: there is no cause why we should pray for the other. Yowr reason of having a better fealinge in the time off persecution, then in the peace of the gospel, is very insufficiēte: especially to that yow use it unto / off prouinge greater plentithe off knowledge in time off persecution / then in peace. considering that those wicked which never were in persecution / nor have that spirit which is often times sharpened / and quickedned by persecution: know notwithstanding the mysteries of God / as the children of God them selves. And although the persecution should give some advancement to knowledge that ways: yet it hindereth more otherways / in that it letteth the often meetings to hear the word of God / whereby knowledge is bredd: in that also poverty (where with it is continually yoked) draweth many cares for this present life / for them / and theirs. Likwise continual fear they be in / even duringe the time of their meetings for the word off God (enemy unto the understanding / and puttinge to flighte the pours of the mind / wherewith knowledge is gotten) and also the often / and soudein shiftinges from place / to place: must needs be a lett to that tainment off knowledge / in the word off God. Where yow call upon answer unto your reason: yow have it / that the time off peace drawethe no more ignorance in the professors off the gospel / then the time of persecution: and therefore the difference between thes times in that point / to be evil assigned. I alleged also / that the elections off the bishops were so evil and of so unfit persons / that although the election off the church should swerve much: yet it can hardly choose worse / then the bishops do / whereunto yow answer not.

The distinction of being of the church, and in the church, I brought / and allowed of it: yet as though yow had brought it / and I refused it / yow labor in confirmation of it. But that which needeth your help / and for proof whereof I ask some testimony of scripture / that Idolaters, and papists are in the church, is not proved. As for dronkardes / and whoremongers / 2c. Yt is spoken off before: close papists / and Atheists which dissemble their wickedness / are in the number off Hipocrites / and therefore must be holden to be in the church / until the Lord discover them. For professed Papists / and Atheists / which never made profession off the gospel / it is not needful to wait for the sentence off excomnnication to cut them of / seeing they wer never of the church. If notwithstanding their professed enemitie unto the gospel, they should be accounted off the church, because they agree to hear the word and receive the sacrament with us: then a Turcke / or a Jew professinge his Turkisme / or Judaism / if he be contented to hear the word / and receive the Sacrament / is so also to be accounted. Which if it be absurd / it can be no good reason to say / that they ought therefore to be holden off the church / because they are in some respects content to he are the word / and receive the Sacraments.

And I would gladly learn / where the Lord hath willed us / so to caste away the use of our judgment / that when men make open profession that they are members off the body of the Pope / which is Antchriste / yet we must account off them as off members off Christ: or howe this is to judge justly. Yow are very unfaithful in reporting my words continually. I nether say / that Hypocrites only are in the church, and not of yt: and the place in the margent / I allege to another purpose then yow affirm / that is / to prove that the papists / and Idolaters being without / have not to do with the church / nor the church with them. where yow would prove by those words / if any brother be an Idolater, that Idolaters may be in the church: yow must understand / first that it is one case off him that hath given his name to the gospel / and afterward slydeth from that profession to Idolatry: and another of him which never gave it / but hath been from his infancy an Idolater. For although the first cannot be severed from the church / without solemn sentence of excommunication / because by a public profession off the truth / he was once received into the body thereof: yet there is not like reason off him / which was never so settled. And this difference Saint Paul doth make / when he giveth leave to a Christian to have to do with an Idolater of the world / that is which hath not been of the church: and yet will not suffer him to have to do with one / which is famously known (for so the the word signifieth) to be a brother. Whereupon followeth / that forsomuch as our Idolaters professinge their popery still / are not / nor cannot be famously known for professors off the gospel: this place of S. Paul openeth no door for them / to enter into the church.

Furthermore yt must be observed / what kind off Idolatry yt is / which Saint Paul saithe may fall into a brother / and yet he retain the name of brother. This appeareth upon the discourse he maketh in that Epistle / to have been only a sitting down to eat at the feast of Idolaters / made in honor of their Idols / without any honor done to idols by sacrifice / or bodily worship / and without any conscience of that meat more then of other. Which although he prove a spice of Idolatry: yet was yt one of the leasie / and lighteste kinds / and such as holdinge still the foundacione off Christianity / could not without obstinacy in it / cut from the church. Whereby fall the out / that the papists which in their Idolatry rase the foundations of true religion / cannot by that place / come into any account off the church off God.

For the first place off Master Calvin / that there are in the Church contemners off God, and which live dissolutely: if the S. had added the next words that such owght with all diligence to be taken away by excommunication: he might have been as hamed / to allege this sentence to so small purpose. The other that Saint Paul meaneth the abstaining from a disordered brother off private society / and not of the public communion: yt is true in deed but to no purpose. For withal he confesseth / that the other owght to be severed from the communion. But forasmuch as it is not in the power of a private man to excommunicate / that pertaining (as he saith) unto whole body off the church / by whose consent yt owght to be done / and yet in his power to keep him self from his private society: he concludeth against the Anabapt. which abstained from the holy communion if any living offensively were received / that it followed not because S. Paul would have one abstain frō private familiarity / therefore he would have him abstain from the communion. Which is no parte off our question / and is too shamefully alleged / considering that the place making nothing to this question / striketh starcke dead another off his causes / touching the sole excommunication of the biship. And although it be out off place / yet having gotten the book / yt shall not be unprofitable / to admonish the reader off the S. unfaithful dealing in his former allegations off Master Calvin / for where pa. 81. he to conclude that the discipline is not of the substantial notes of the church / alledgeth a sentence owt off this book: beside that I have shown how evil he concludeth off his words / it is to be noted that in the same book he affirmethe precisely / that the discipline is required to the substance off the church only he denieth that which the Anabaptist. held / that there was no church / where there was no excommunication. Likewise pa. 90. where he would make us believe / that excommunication 19. Math is not by Master Calvin judgment understanded off public offenses / Mai. Calvin's declareth only that those private admonitions / do not belong unto public offenses: but that those public offenders ought to be excommunicated / if they rest not in the churches Judgment / and consequently first complainned of to the church (Which are two off the Ecclesiastical censures / mentioned in that place off S. Matthew) he doth more then once or twice affirm. Now leuing the D. in his threchery let us return. if all were true yow allege here (as they are very untrue) yet they help not. For yow will not deny / but dronkardes / whoremongers / papists / &c. ought ether to be driven to repentance / or out off the church: which whether soever come to pass / taketh away the inconvenience yow allege / against the election off the church. So that unless yow mean to nourish them in the church / as bandogges to keep out this election: this bar against it / is easily removed.

It is appointed unto the magistrate by the word off God / that he should not only provide that his subjects live paceably / one with another: but also and that especially / to see that they having the true knowledge of God / may serve him as he hath prescribed. This way off gathering them to the next parishes / seemed unto me fitteste to be used in that case: if yow can show better / mine shall give place. Only therefore I made mention of it / to show that the impossibility which yow so often caste in the teeth of the reformacion / can have no place: if they continue vncorrigible / I have before shown that yt is the commandment of God unto the magistrate / to use cutting / and burning / and nether to suffer God to be dishonored in them / nor the rest off his subjects infected. If they can be discerned for dogs or swine, which are not only filthy (in which regard I called dronkardes / &c. Swine) but also tread the word under their feet: then I grant / he which hath that judgment off them assured by the testimony of the spirit of God / ought not to teache them. But this cometh out of time. For I made no mention off dogs / and the name off swine I gave not to the papists / but to filthy livers: and yt overturneth your purpose: for if they may not hear the word / much less can they be off the church. The preventing off an objection / is no digression: whether yt be frivolous, the judgment shall be with the reader.

I took the likeliest signification off your word established: which is / surely grounded without remove / and which hath all the partes off a church: now I see that by (established) yow mean allowed by the magistrate. Althowghe I have shown before by story / that there were churches then / which had maintenance of the magistrate: yet as in a matter that nether hurteth me / not helpeth yow / I will not strive. speak of the church visible / standing off good / and evil / of the outward government of the church / which standeth in administering off the word / and Sacraments / and exercise of all partes off church discipline: and that I have shown to have all her partes / although not all her ornaments. Which I did not without reason annexed / against which cometh nothing but a bare affertion / and a charge off ignorance off that distinction, which I myself did first propound. touching this that the civil magistrate is not the head off the church / yt falleth into the questiō of the Archbishop / where it shall be (god willing) handled.

That he saithe that the state off the church was in the Apostles time popular: by his own judgment (which giveth the name unto the form of government, of that parte which moste rulethe) is untrue. for the State off the best, did bear the greatest rule: considering that there were matters belonging unto the church done by the eldershipp / whereat the people were not / nor could not by any convenience be present / yet there was nothing in which the people's Judgment was required / wherein the Eldershipp was not both present / and president. And this saying off the D. that the people in the Apostles times, had to do almost in every thing: is directly contrary to that he hath before discoursed. For to the Admo. and me opposing the places off the Acts / where things were done ether by voice / or consent off the church: his answer hath been / that the church had nothing to do there / but only in the election off the Deacons / and that popularitie he affirmeth to have been / not in respect that the church was under persecution / as here in this place: but for a special cause off contention / then in the church. Now I would gladly know of Master D. What are those places off scripture / whereby he will prove that the moste things in government / were done by consent off the people: if those places we haūe alleged / do not prove yt. That which yow ad / off the convenience that nothing should be done in the church, without the consent, and knowledge of the magistrate: your addition taketh nothing from the consent of the church. For the magistrates consent / and the churches are not at war: but one may / hath / and doth stand well with the other. Because the recytall of a 100. differences is unprofitable: I leave yt in the readers judgment / howe trwly / and without brag, or figure I have spoken. But if for a 100. there were 1000. yet your cause should be never the better / unless yow can show / that those differences pull with them / a necessity off change off the form off election: which yow nether do / nor can.

That one church should admonish another, and that there are many Hypocrites under persecution, is before shown. Off wicked ministers which had their followers / and lovers in the churches of God / which notwithstanding kepinge the profession off the gospel / were in danger off the laws of the contreis where they dwelte / is spoken off almost through all the epistles off Saint Paul. yea yt may appear through out the whole course of the ecclesiastical stories / that many churches of Heretics partly Arians / partly Nestorians / and especially of the Novatians / were persecuted / and banished of heathen Emperors / together with the catholic church of Christ. And it appeareth plainly / by that which hath been of both partes alleged out of Cypr. that certain churches about him / did choose unmeet ministers. Therefore Master D. doth wonderfully forget him self / when he saithe / that yt is not like that the church in persecution will choose an unmeet, or wicked minister or that they which suffer persecution for the gospel, do yt always off conscience, or off good conscience / whereof the question is. And if he will admit none off thes proses / yet if he stand unto his exposition off the parable of the sower in the 13. of Saint Matthew / forsomuch as (according to his saying) for one in the church which heareth profitably, three do the contrary: yt must follow that even in the persecuted church / there must be thrice as many evil / as good. Unless peradventure he will say / that our S. Christ spake that off the estate off the church in time off the civil magistrate / which was spoken off the whole estate off the church / unto the worlds end: and especially to that present church / which was under the cross.

Ys it true which yow here affirm? can yt not be otherwise in the time off persecution, but that church offices must be chosen by common consent? Howe cometh then to pass / that yow deny the election Acts 1. and 14. to have been made with the consent off the church? How happeneth yt that yow affirm / that Timothy. and Titus off their own authorities, without the consent ether off eldershipp / or people appointed ministers unto the churches, in Ephesus, and Creata? that in Cyprians times (which were times of persecution) the electiō was made in some places without the people? verily he had need be a very kun̄ing ioiner / which should set the • together for the impossibility which yow imagine / yt is not such but that if the commodity of the church / and the institution off God had so suffered: the churches would have submitted them selves / and their voices in their elections / unto the order of one. And besides that Christian humility / and love off advancing the truth for which they had forsaken all / would have let them to that submission there was Ecclesiastical discipline to drive them unto it. Unless they would rather quittethe church / which lightness doth not agree with the zeal / which yow (for your advantage) ascribe unto a persecuted church.

HEere he denieth that he hath said, that the consent off the church in the choice off the minister, cannot stand with the time off the Christian magistrate. All the reasons which he alleged are to prove / that the election under a Christian magistrate / can nor be safelye / and conuenientlie committed unto the church: and evē here he saith / it is in thes times pernicious, and hurtful. But that which cannot be safely / and cōueniently done / ought not be done: much les that which is pernicious / and hurtful. Therefore if yow think as yow speak / yow think as I have said: that the churches election cannot stand / with the time of A Christian magistrate. And your salve wherewith yow would plaster yt / that the civil magistrate may ordain so if he list, is nothing worth. For if it be dangerous / if yt be inconvenient (as yow say) to committee the election to the church: he owgte not althowge he would / give it into her hands.

Where yow conclude that yt was in pour off the civil magistrate to order that matter / because the Emperors made laws off the election, which they would not have done, if yt had been ordered by the word off God: yow are to far wyde. For we read that Aza made a law / that who soever did not seek the Lord / should die. And there are laws made with us that men shall hear the word off God / and receive the sacraments: and yet thes things are commanded of God / and unchangeable: nether is yt at the pleasure off any magistrate to order them otherwise. If the reasons which Musc. bringeth for conformacion off the election off the church / can be answered / then I will leave them / and follow his authority: otherwise I account that although he wrastel with it with his left hand / yet he upholdeth yt with his righte.

T. C. concealed nothing subtilely, in leaving owt that the ministers owght to be blameless: he left out that which made nothing ether for / or against the purpose. If the A. had considered what I prove owt of this place: ether he should have omitted this / or spoken yt against his conscience. For I propounded only / that the election off the church / was both in the times of the Christiā magistrate / and confirmed by them: and the D. cannot deny / but this place proveth that fully. whether it be according to the doctrine of the Apostles / or no: I shown before. Therefore this disputation is with yourself / and with nothing which I set down. And if I had so set it down / whether the decree off the Emperor would have borne yt owt / considering that the sentence which I left / ought to be shut in a parenthesis: I leave yt unto the judgment of the reader. As for the reasons which are used for that purpose / the one that he would have said decree • , and not we decree: is answered before. Thother of propounding three, owt of which one should be known not practiced at any time by the Apostles: is not sufficient to prove / that the Emperor did not set before him / their example: seeing that in the principal points / and causes off the election (amongst which the choosers are the efficient) he kept him self unto the election of the Apostles. Yea if it be well considered / yt shall be easily perceived / that he stuck too curiously / and precisely unto the election Acts 1. whilst as there were two set up / of which one should be taken: so in a grater multitude he would have three / out of which he would draw one. And although the imitacion of the doctrine off the Apostles / were only as yow would have yt / that the moste pure should be taken: yet yow cannot deny / but the Emperor took this to be the best way / to have most incorrupt ministers: that the election should be made by the inhabitants off the city. Howbeit because I propounded only to prove / that elections by the church have been confirmed by Emperors: I will not strive with him in this point / because I will stop up the holes as much as may be / whereat he breaketh owt always / from that which is in question.

Yt were an evil interpretation / to expound the inhabitants off the city / the chief off the city: especially considering that the decree of other Emperors which followed / ordained that the minister should be chosen by all the people. And considering that the Nouelles in latin / are corrupt in many places: yt is unreasonable to expound the Code / and other laws by them / especially with such open violence. And yt may be that the translator in steed off the heads of families / put the heads off the city: but for this also I will not strive. What ether against my cause / or for yowres / conclude yow off that the Metropolitan ordained one off the three, which were chosen after that sort? Likewise what gain yow / if (which is untrue / or very doutefull as that which hath authority off both sides) a man should accord yow / that Charles the great, was Emperor of the French, and not off the Duch? Thes are nothing but baits to draw from the cause / which yow would so fain shift your hands of. The shelter also yow seek in those words (according to the canons off that diocese) will not hold owt the whether. For although it might be thereby gathered / that there were several Ceremonies in the elections off the dioceses: yet it is plain by his words / that the elections were through owt, made by the church: which is that we desire.

Because yow busy your self so much to prove / that this was not decreed by authority of the word of God / although yt be not that which I took in hand to prove: yet the words off that decree prove yt fully. And albeyt he said not according to the rules of the Apostles, yet he saith that in effect. For in saying that the church should use that election in the name, and authority off god: what is yt else / but that god hath so ordained: And in that he calleth yt the honor of the church, which he giveth not him self / but assenteth unto: he declareth yt incident to the church. And what a reason is this / Thēperour for bad that any man should spoil the churches of their elections: therefore it was in the Emperors pour, to take away the election from the churches? Which is in this division for fear of forgetting / four times repeated: and unworthy once to be confuted / as I have before declared. And as that which the A. alledgeth off the rest of the decree / maketh nothing to prove / that the electiō off the church is in the Emperors pour: so that which im̄ediatly followeth / which he hydeth in (&c.) doth manifestly prove / that he held yt for grounded of the word off God / that the churches should have the election off their ministers. For he addeth / Because we have been taught by the holy fathers, that this thing (that is to say the taking away off the election from the church / as the D. himself expoundeth yt) is most grievous sin. If therefore it be grievous sin to spoil the church of this honor / and sin is defined the breach of the law off god: yt followeth that the Emperor toke yt for a law of God / that the church should choose her minister.

And if I had been bente upon that point: I could have cited diverse testimonies / which Illyricus useth / whereby this off the unchangeable necessity off the election by the church / is confirmed. As that Leo the first affirmeth / that no reason suffereth that he should be bishop, which is not chosen by the people: alleged / and pressed against the Papists off Master Calvin to the same purpose. Which place how violently / and unfaithfully yt is wrested off the D. in the end of this treatise shall be considered. Also that he alledgeth off Leo the fourth / and Celestine which confirmed the same ordinance with this testimony. it is not convenient, and yt is against reason yt should be otherwise. Likewise owt off the epistles off the Archbishop off Reines in France / who diverse times useth this saying / he owght to be chosen of all, whom all must give obedience unto. Last off all a whole treatise owt of the second book of Cusanus: which proveth of diverse places out off the scripture / Cyprian / and canon Law: that yt is no constitution off men / but the law off God / that the minister should be chosen off the church: and that whosoever doth not enter into the church by that means, entereth not in by the door, but is a these and a murderer. Thes I would have brought at large / if I had not contented myself with proofs owt of the scripture / for the necessity off yt: which I here have shortly set down / because I see the D. more afraid off the judgment off the ancient church / then of the scripture. so that although yt be a slender buckler to shild him self / that the constitutions in that behalf make no mention off any ground owt off the word of god (whereas he should rather have shown that they protested in their laws off the indifferency / against the necessity off it): yet even that buckler also is by diverse Testymonies / taken from him.

Yt is a poor falsifying off Platina, which is nothing but change of one word for another / without any gain at all. For the Emperors cōmendacion serveth me as well / to prove that the election of the church was allowed of / and confirmed of the civil magistrate: as if he had commanded yt. The second place off Platina proveth nothing les / then that it was in the Emperors pour to change the election: seeing that he nether made / nor altered any form off Election / but only off two Elections by the people / maintained that which was lawful. Seinge also Platina / supposeth no right off making the election in the Emperor / but by the resignation off the Bishopp: if that place prove anything / or the other after alleged out off Bale / and Barns: they prove that yt was in the Bishops hand / to order yt at his pleasure. Which howe untrue yt ys / may be considered off that which hath been before spoken / against the sole election off the Bishopp: and off that which is here confessed / that the Bishopp of Rome began to usurp, that which belonged not unto him. For iff he encroched upon the Emperors right: no marvel although he brake in upon the possession off the church.

Where he saith / yt is to be noted that the liberty for the people to choose, was granted by Charles the great: note also tha • that note / is worth nothing. For where he would have yt seem / that he was the first that gave that liberty: he is confuted manifestly by the words off Charles / a little before alleged: who speaketh of that election / as of a thing accustomed of old / and doth not make any new law thereof / but giveth his assent unto those which were made. The words yow ascribe to me (that the electiō pertaineth not to the Emperor) I have not: I kept the very words of Platina / and nether added / nor took away from them. Where yow would seme to confirm owt of Platina in the life of John the 13. by the word (creating) that the Emperor chose Leo: yt is but an abusing of the reader. For Platina in the next chapter saving one / where he speaketh of Leos election / declareth that that creation was nothing else / but a confirmation of the election made by the people / and clergy.

Therefore I said the Emperors permitted the elections unto the churches, because by pour / and violence they might have taken them from them: wherefor yt followethe not / that he might without breach off God's law, take them from the church. When yt is said in the stories / that the Emperous permitted unto the churches the exercise off their religion: may yt thereby be concluded / that it was at their pleasure / to have without offense of God restrained them of that liberty? verily I am ashamed to confute / which the D. is not ashamed to object. Yet the testimonies alleged / make no mention of this word (permission) whereby this advantage (if yt were any) should betaken.

Yow might easily have forgiven me this fault / where the injury which I do is a gainst myself. For where I might have used the authorie off the Centuries / to the utter rejection off the canon off the council off Laodicea; I used yt only to bring the canon into suspicion / whether yt were made then or no. If I had had the book before me / yow might well think I would not have done myself that wrong. As for the Canon I have shown both by the conference off other councils / and authority / of Calvin / and Beza / that yt cannot be understanded to seclude the people from the election / but tendeth only to the directing of them / by the foreiudgemente of the elders. And whereas to the authority off Calu. which I allege owt of the Acts / he opposeth his authority in the Institutiōs: besides that fault which he reproacheth me with / off opposinge the authors unto them selves: the untruth off it is shown in the former place / neither can the A. have excuse off his moste unfaithful dealing. For as well in the edition he followeth / as in the later: this judgment touching the canon / is not once / but twice set down / not simply / but with confirmation off the decree off Leo the first / and that in the same section / owt off which he hath fetched thes words. If he will still speak against the son / and deny that which he doth so plainly affirm / touching the use off the churches election only in the Apostle • times, and times off persecution: I can do no more / but leave it to the judgment off the reader / referring him to the places where he saith / that this election endured unto Cyprians times, and to his whole disputation whereby he goeth about to prove / that this election can by no means be convenient for the prosperity off the gospel.

The exception he maketh against the peace off the church / in the time off Constantine / because Maxentius, and Lycinius persecuted yt, is nothing to the purpose. For Albeit the churches under them / were in persecution: yet those under Constantine were quiet. And even under Licinius the church was at quiet for a time. For Constantine, and Lycinius made a moste perfect, and full decree for the peace off the church: and by their letters sent to Maximinus (which was then the persequutor in the East) procured peace there. So that the peace was general through the churches. And although that peace was in certain partes broken of: yet yt appeareth / that both Lycinius Maxentius / and Maximinus being taken away / Constantine obtained dominiō over the whole empire / and pourchased peace unto the whole church.

When the Nicene Council alloweth not off the election off the clergy / unless the person chosen be both worthy / and likewise chosen by the people: can there be any plainer words invented / to confirm that I have set down? And where he would darken so clear a light / by words which say that those things belonged peculiarly to Egypt, and to the church of Alexandria, as if this order off election by the church / were not holden good in other places: he doth but as a man which hath made shipwreck / snatcheth at everything he can lay hold off / at all adventure. For Ariu • heresy bearing sway in those partes / drave the council to enter into certain peculiar considerations off them: but that the election off the church / was a peculiar thing unto those provinces / yt is too absurd. For what wisdom off the council should yt be / to permit that unto the people in those places / which were moste corrupt with Arianism: if other places of the world / which were sounder then they / had not that privilege? And if the foresaied words / cause this condition so that the people choose, to be a peculiar thing unto those places: then yt followeth / that the other condition which is joined with yt / was likewise / that he which was chosen should be meet to be chosen: which no man that hath not lost his senses / will ever say. So that we still have the council off Nice / confirming absolutely the election off the church. As for Grineus he maketh nothing to this matter. for the right off the clergy, shutteth not owt the churches.

The words off the tripartite story / are as I have alleged / and the words of Theodoret have nothing to the contrary: only the D. must say something. Thouching the next division I leave yt to be judged / whether I have shown that which the A. saith I have not.

It is never a whit the better / although those yow allege / and all the world should allow of that sentence yow bring forth / under Ambroses credit. I used no contempt towards Ambrose / nether have I so much as rejected him: only that sentence as blasphemns against the government off the Apostles / Idetested / and yt owght to have been maintained by confutation off reasons I alleged / and not by bare authority. For if that had been enough to wype away that place: I had a great deal more manifester against yt / then yow be hable to allege for yt. For of that place off Ambrose Calvin writeth thus. As for those things which are red in the commentaries off Ambrose, they are too childis he, and unworthy of Ambr. And yow do but color this matter with the names off Georgius / &c. Which what they say / I report me to those that have the books to see: assured notwithstanding / that if they had anything for yow / yow would have made them speak.

If yow would have done simply / yow should have named Pighius / who proveth diversity of government off the church / as yow do by this counterfeit place of Amb. As for the shift wherewith the D. Would help it / that yt was permitted to all mē to preach, and minister the sacraments, but not without a calling: yt is spoken witthowt reason. For what needed there / or howe can there be a calling / when all were used to the service of the ministry? Seeing that calling is a seperatiō from other by electiō / and electiō is choice of some / with leuinge off other some: And the church of Christ is a body standing off many members / and not all an eye / or any other one menber. And for that there were many in the time off the Apostles / which had not ether knowledge / or dexterity to teach: yt cannot be said without making the Apostles / Authors of horrible confusion / that they called all men to the ministry off the word / and sacraments. That which is brought owt off Bull. and Sleidan / is but filling up of paper. For they condemn not the Anabaptists / because they chose their ministers: but that they excluded the authority of the magistrate.

Your reproaches here are answered. I gave yow as ready a way to find those testimonies / as I had given me. If yow took yt out off Musculus your self / then might have noted the place: if yow had yt of others / yow should have named your collector / as I did mine. Here is occasion taken to repeat / and translate a great deal owt of Musculus / but nothing to purpose. For I deny not / but that he is off Judgment / that a man constrained by corruption off times / may depart from the Apostolical election shuttinge owt the people: but I deny that that is warranted by substantial arguments. Beside I have shown / that here in words against us / in his reasons he standeth for us. Which shall best be vnsterstanded / in that the D. being not hable to lift the whole / hath mangled them / and snatched here and there a word: if peradventure untwisted he might deal with them / which otherwise he could not break. For where I cited owt off Musculus that yt is a boundage unto the church, to have their minister thrust upon yt without choice off the people: he answereth / that subjection to magistrates is no bondage: wherein he toucheth nether heaven / nor earth. For he should have answered as unto Musculus / and not as unto me: considering that I alleged that owt off him / off whom he hath taken all his reasons. And therefore the note off Anabaptism, which he markethe all those with / that say yt is bondage unto the church, to have their pastor thrust upon them: lighteth upon Musculus / which thus speaketh / and affirmeth yt constantly.

Then his answer is abegging off that in question / when he saith / that subjection in lawful matters is no bondage: yt being in question whether yt be lawful for the magistrate / to take away the election from the church. To that also owt of Musculus / that the minister chosen by the church may rule with a good conscience / and the people obey unto him / easilier / then when he cometh in against their will: and thervppon concluded / that forasmuch as that manner of election is to be followed / which maketh moste to assure the ministers conscience of his calling / and that the people should be more obedient unto his doctrine / therefore that only was to be holden: his answer is / that he may be assured otherwise, and that the people otherwise will obey. which if yt were true / as yt is not / is not sufficient: for that he is not so easily assured / nor they so easily obey.

And where as he saith / that he which is assured off an inward calling, need not to doubt of his outward: yow should understand that the assurance of the inward calling / depēdeath a great parte of the outward. for allbeyt the sprite of God worketh that assurance: yet he worketh by the outward means of the judgment of the elders / and off the church / touching his aptness for the ministry: whileste he considereth / that that calling is not the calling off men / but off God through the ministry of men. Nether is there any one (excepe those which are called extraordinaryly) which can have assurance off any inward calling / but by the means off outward. For if he were assured that God had called him / without the calling off men; he owght to obey his voice / although men would not call him. So that this not distinction / but separation off the knowledge off an inward calling / from the outward / is not only absurd: but confirmeth the Anabaptists / which boast off an inward calling / where no calling off the church went before.

That he addeth / if yt be according to the form of that church where he is called: is but a begging off the question. For it being in question whether every calling that any church useth / be lawful / and seeing the minister cannot be assured off his outward calling / unless yt be lawful: it followeth that he which presumeth one / must needs presume the other. Vppon Musculus saying / that the thrustinge off the minister upon the church without her election, draweth bondage, &c. and the D affirming / that such elections are meet for the church, under the Christian Magistrate: I concluded that thereby great injury was done to the Christian Magistrate / given off God not only to preserve / but to increase the churches liberty. To all which first the D. answereth / that he giveth nothing to the magistrate but which belongeth unto him, and that yt is the magistrates right to use that kind of appoincting off ministers, which he thinketh good: which is a gross begging off that in controversy.

Secondly he saith / that the pastors had never better cause to obey their pastors, never les cause to complain off bondage, and cōstraint, then now when the pastors are chosen without the consent off the churches: which as it is barely said / hath no reason to lean upon / is confuted by common sense: so it is directly contrary to that Musculus his author / affirmeth in the words before alleged. Only for the matter off liberty / he alledgeth that the true liberty of the church, consisteth in liberty of conscience, and freedom from false doctrine: whereunto I answer / that it consisteth in them / but not only. for to use assemblies for the ministering of the word / and Sacraments / &c. is a liberty of the church: And they are not mine / but Musc. words: which calleth the election by the church / a liberty, and the other a bondage of the church. I imagine not the corrupt estate to be in the laws, and goūernment off the Christian magistrate: but contrariwise give that virtue to his godly government / that the estate off religion may be easily pure with him: which can be hardly / or not without great danger / pure without him. Yow if not in words / yet in deed / make the government off the Christian magistrate, always fraught with dronkardes, Idolaters, whoremōgers / Atheists / &c. which was not so before he entered: which is nothing else / then to make him Lord of misrule / and in steed of a noursing father / a fosterer of sin: which is the injury I complain off.

Where yow say / that it is commendation unto the magistrate to correct such disordered persons: yow say well / but smally to the purpose / smally to your advantage. For if the church hath by benefit of the Christian magistrate / besides her own censures / his help off civil punishments for repressing sin: she having better means to weed out the wicked thē be fore / may be more easily discharged of those unprofitable burdens. I have not therefore trāsferred the faults off men unto the government: but yow have laid to my charge / that which yourself fault in / and I before confuted. The form off election in the Apostles time, is not changed by the magistrates confirmation. For beside that that is properly no parte off the election / but a thing which followeth yt: this right off confirmation of elections / was in the Apostles. times. And although the practice was not general / yet there being even in in their times some Christian magistrates / as appeareth by that which hath been spoken: there can be small doubt / but this form off election had in certain places / even during the Apostles times / his approbation. If it had not / yet the form thereof is no more changed thereby: then the form of preaching / and administering the Sacraments / when the magistrate did not allow of them / differeth from that which is now / when he maintaineth them. so appeareth that the magistrates cōfirmatiō / standeth without breach of the Apostical form of electiō: which he denieth.

Thes trifling questions here / albeit moste unworthy / yet are answered almost all before. And if there were a legion moe / they are not only confuted / in that this manner off election by the church confirmed by the magistrate / hath been used more then • 00. years together: but also by the D. own words / whereby he leaveth yt in the princes pleasure / so to order yt still. For if there were such inconveniences / and absurdities as he imagineth: how hath the practice continued so longe / been thought good by so many good Emperors / and so many learned men in all those ages? Or if all they were a sleap / or of so short sight / that they could not see thes inconveniences / which the D. hath espied: how cometh yt to pass / that he leaveth yt in the magistrates pleasure / to establish this order encumbered with such inconveniences, and absurdities?

For the chalenges whereby he would give to understand / that I have not faithfully alleged Musculus: the first is / that I affirm that he went about to defend the election used where he was by this, that it approached to the election of the primative church, which he saith is untrue. But the reason wherewith I confirm yt / that Muscu. saithe yt vavs made not by one minister, but by all, by the voices of the Senate, where some number off the people were: He toucheth not. The second that I call the choice off the minister by the church the Apostolical form: yet they are not my words / but Musculus his authors / which calleth yt the old, the fytteste, the divine, the Apostolical, and lawful election.

Where he saith / that Musculus doth not call the other elections, forced: I would gladly know / what difference there is between forced, and thrust upon. For Musculus in the same title / maketh all one a minister thrust upon the church / and a minister which is not chosen off the church / in thes words. The form off election used in the Apostles times, is conformable to the liberty, and privilege off the church, whereof Cyprian made mention: and that form off choice, whereby men began to be thrust upon the people off Christ being not chosen off yt, doth agree to a church which is not free, but subject to bondage. Hitherto yt hath appeared that although Musc. Judgment be not wholly for us: yet the reasons which he allegeth for this cause / are such as cannot be shaken. Now I will further show / that as there is some disagreement between ours / and his Judgment: so there is further distance / between him and the D.

First therefore he saithe / that as the election by the church endured until the time off Christian magistrates: so the election made by the church / and confirmed by the Christian magistrate / endured until that time / that the bishop off Rome having wrong out / both from the Emperor / and the people their right in the election / took it all to him self. The D. denieth this stoutly. Secondarily Musculus maketh the disorders off elections by chusinge unmeet persons / or by corruption through gifts / or parciall favor / to begin then especially: when the election taken from the people / cam into the bishop of Rome / and his suffragans hands. The D. clean contrary / that thes disorders were especially / in the elections by the people: and best avoided / when the election is called to the will / and beck off one bishop. Thirdly Musc. maketh yt an unlawful form off election / when yt is made of the prince: but master D. saith / that yt is in the princes pour to make election off ministers him self if he will / or committee yt to others iff he list. Fourthly Musc. helpinge him self off the authority off Jerome / saith that there was no election in popery: because they were made without the knowledge off the people / and condemneth also the election of the bishops made by the Canons / for the same cause. But M. D. saith yt is a moste convenient / and sufficient election: which notwithstanding in that point / is all one with the election in popery. Last off all / wherein (lieth a great weight of this controversy) he doth not say simply / that this form off choice by the church is unmeet / and inconvenient for this age off he church: but that it could not be by and by / and out of hand restored: and after a little / that it could not be in all churches / by and by restored. Whereby he gyuethe to understand / that in some places yt might be forthwith restored: and in other / all men owght endeavor to bring yt in again / withal convenient speed. So appeareth that although Musculus be pretended: yet Pighius / and Hosius be his storers.

Here cometh to show the manner off the election off the Tigurine church / whereon the D. heareth him self so much: which (as Bullinger whom he citeth for his author reporteth) is this. After he had shown that in all lawful ministries off the word / there is required that with innocence of life / he should be learned / then chosen according to the word off God / thirdly after he is chosen / and presented to the church / have imposition of hands: he addeth / Heruppon the Tigurine church, having taken her leave off the inordinate ordination off the popish bishop, chooseth off the learned, and off the ministers, off the Senators, and off the council off the 220. that is to say off the common people: which out off the learnedest, and honestest deacons, should present certain that are to be made Bishops, unto the Senate, and people. Off which when the Senate, and people have chosen one: they send him unto the church over which he is set, and with him a counseiller which doth commend him unto his church. Then the chiefest off the bishops off that city, or other place where this new bishop must be, maketh a Sermon, and in public prayer made off the church in this behalf, laying on his hands, commendeth the church unto him. Wherein howe many things are fauouringe our cause / and openly fighting against the D. upon that I have before noted / of the election of the churches of Berne / I leave to be considered.

ALthowghe the D. (as his use is) speaketh off one thing so often / and that in the same division / and with spaces put between / so that yt is hard to give answer with any convenient understanding off the reader: yet I will as well as I can / refer his scattered sayings to certain heads. Wheroff the first is / that he did not mean to prove by thes places off Timothy, and Titus, that the election belonged unto one man: Whereupon he chargeth me / with willful deprauinge off his answer. Yt must be therefore considered / if we may hold this wett eele by the mouthe. The Adm. saithe / in the primitive church no minister was placed in the congregation but by consent off the people, but now that authority is given to the bishops hands alone: the D. answereth by the place off Timothy / and Titus. Now this being a commandment / and by his judgment both directed only to Tim. and Tit. and to them as bishops: yt followeth that he hath taught / that Saint Paul commandeth that they / and in them all bishops / should only choose. Whereby are condemned all election by the church / as those which have intruded upon the bishops possession.

Where he saith / that the Adm. doth coulorably affirm, by thes words thautoritie is given to the biship alone, &c. that the right off orderinge ministers doth at no hand appertain unto the biship: I would know what word there is here / where this color is to be seen: and what light he is able to give us / to make yt appear. The other sentence wherewith he would prove yt / followeth after / nether was he come unto yt. If he did therefore confute that: it is as strange as iff a man should shut off / and spend his arrows / or ever he come within the reach off his enemy. And I think there is no example off such confutation / unless he had coupled that place with this / and comparinge them together / set upon them both at ones. beside that it is Absurde / that where the Adm. here spake off the election: he answereth off admission.

Here cometh to be considered the A. dealing in the end off the book / where (charged with unfaithfulness for that as in this place / he would have in synuated / that the Adm. would have the people choose only) to prove him self giltles / he alledgeth a place of the Adm. wherein yt is said / Then the election was made by common consent off the whole church. To this answer I rep • lied / that it was his oversight / that he took the people which is but a parte of the church / to be all one with the church which is the whole / cōteininge as well governors of the church / as the people, in which reply the D. crieth out off manifest falsification. Why so? forsooth because I left out this word whole: that is to say / because I spared him / and kept back a piece of his folie / and that with disadvantage off that which I pretended to prove. For the word church simply set down / doth comprehended as well the governors / as the people: howe much more doth it comprehend them / when this word whole is added? And if it were falsely concluded off him against the Adm. that they would have the ministers to be called / allowed / and placed off the people / because they said / that the election was made by common consent off the church: how much more is yt falsely concluded of thes words off the Adm. the election was made by consent off the whole church? Thus appeareth that the D. together with his divinity / seemeth to have lost his common sense: yt is time therefore to carry him out off the school to some other place / iff peradventure by some sharper discipline / he might gather up him self again.

In the same place also / vpō that I shown that in proper speech / the church / and people differed / having there declared that difference to be / in that the church is the whole / and the people a parte thereof▪ this complainer off falsificatiō saithe / that I seem to separate the people from the election of the ministers, for that I will not have the word church in the Adm. comprehend the people: which is manifestly against that I set down. For I precisely reprehended him for that upon the word church, used off the Admon. he would have maintained his false insinuation against them / that the election should pertain to the people only: considering that the word church cited off him / was the whole: and the people one parte / and necessarily comprehended under it. This is not only falsifyinge / but flat facynge.

Now to return back / I ask what he needed twife in this division / in so many / and grievous words complain off corrupt dealing? seeing him self flatly affirmeth / as much as I say of him / and otherwise cā not maintain his cause. The truth is / that he abstained then from the words electinge, and only, because he saw he had nothing to maintain them: which now by my reply / he was driven to put down / or else to forsake his cause. Wherein as he dissenteth from the truth: so he is driven to have a new combat with him self / in that he here maketh yt indifferent / and at the discretion of the church in time of persecution / to make elections ether by one / or by the multitude: which is contrary to that he hath before in thes words. Lastly in time of persecution when they have no magistrate, they be all equal, nether is one bound to obey another by any civil law: none hath cheiff, and especial care over the rest, as magistrate to compel: wherefor yt cannot be otherwise then, but that such offices should be chosen by common consent. Where he alledgeth Zwingli. and Bull. owt of place / and contrary to the title of his chap. to prove the calling of certain by one Apostle: because they be Evangelists which we have no use off / and for that I have shown / that they both are clearly of this Judgment / that the minister owght to be chosen with consent off the church: I will not much busy myself with this matter. But although the Apostles did send thes Evangelists off their Embassages / to know howe the churches did / and such like things as required no tariance / nor execution off any set ministry in the churches whereunto they where sent: yet that they ever set them to rule any congregation by their private authority / is not to be esteemed. whereof this is an apparent reason / that Timothy was not set over the church off Ephesus by Saint Paul only / seeing that Paul confesseth that he received imposition off hands / by the eldership. Thother also here mentioned being Evangelists / it is like the order used in one / was in the other. Nether do the words I left the at Creta, prove it. for he doth not say / that he ordained him: and if he had / yet it must be understanded / that he did ordain him as he had done in other churches / with consent off the church.

And that this is not my judgment / yt may appear by that I have alleged owt off Calvin / and Musculus / in the former book / and Bez. in this. nether could Bull. be thought to have here such meaning / as the D. giveth him: that the Apostles alone should set over the churches ministers / as appeareth by that I have alleged. So that unless he will make Bullinger contrary unto him self: thes words that Paul / and Peter called certain / cannot be understanded off placinge them over any congregation / no further then being chief in that action / they directed the judgment of the churches. there remaineth Zwingli / which I marvel the D. will charge me with / seeing he himself will not stand to him / in the place which he hath alleged. For that which he hath left owt / off Mathias chosen by the whole church: is directly against that / which he hath in diverse places before affirmed.

After many vain words against the reply unto the places off Timothy / as that it is against thauthoritie off learned writers, against the whole course off the Epistell, against the circunstance off the place: he alledgeth that the moste off the precepts contained in that epistell, do properly pertain unto Timothy, as he is a bishop. Which is untrue / especially in that sense he taketh a bishop / which the Apostles never knew off: for there shall be scarce two sentences found in the whole epistle / which agree not to every pastor. And set aside those which concern teaching / there are very few not common with him / unto an elder which only governeth. Beside diverse belonging unto the whole church / as well as unto him: and some rather to other partes off the church / then unto him, yet iff the moste should properly belong unto him: howe can he prove that the sentence off not laying one off hands rashly / doth onele belong unto him? he hath cited many to prove that Saint Paul saith / yt doth belong unto the bishop, which is not denied: but that yt doth only belong by this place off Saint Paul / which is denied / he hath not one. Nay diverse off his authors here alleged / have the contrary off that he pretendeth to prove by them. For Bull. I have said. Calu. denying that ether Paul / or Timothy did any thing in elections / without the consent off the church / touching the bare ceremony off laying on the hands / he dowteth whether yt were done by one / or many. And Jerome although he say / that the ordination belonged to the bishop yet I have shown in the former book / that he confesseth that that was by no order of God / or rule of the Apostles (by which he confesseth that the bishops were equal unto the rest of the elders) but only by constitutiō off men. Therefore he is untruly cited / to confirm that by this place off the Apostle / the bishop hath ether the election / or ordination unto him self.

As for Chrysostom / and Oecumenius / unto whom is added Beza pag 226. Where this is repeated: I answer at ones / that yt seemeth violent that the Apostle vsinge the word eldershipe / should shut forth those / which were properly called elders. And where I alleged pag. 226. that Chrysostom meant not by those words / to put a distinctiō between elders by age / and office: I was deceived. The occasion was / because he doth so in the same epistle / where he had no more cause then here: and not lokinge upon the the place when I wrote / I took one for another. But yt is to be noted / that their interpretation is directly against the D. for Chrysostom affirmeth / that the Bishops off Ephesus (which appear to have been diverse in the Acts) did lay on their hands: and Beza / that all those which had the ministry off the word, are meant by the word presbitery: So that by their judgment / one only did not ordain, nor lay on hands: both which the D. affirmeth. As for the other sentence off Chrysostom / with Theophilacte / although Paul left unto Tite to do those things which were joined with most honor: yt followeth not / that he left them to be done otherwise / then himself did them.

But he doth to much abuse his reader / which would make him believe that he drew this from the godly writers / which he hath from professed enemies off the truth. For thes are the reasons off Pighius / which to prove that the biship only should choose / and not the church / alleged thes two places off Tite / and Timothy which the Answerer hath. Thus the first reason off the D. with all the authorities wherewith he hath walled yt / is gone to the ground. for as for Ambrose testimony / yt maketh nether hot / nor kolde: no man dowteth but that Timothy owght to be circumspecte, in ordeininge ministers.

The second reason is / that iff the election off a bishop had off necessytie pertained unto the people: thē S. Paul would not have writ̄ to Timothy of yt, but unto the churches as well as unto him. As though there were not many things in those epistles / necessay for the churches to do: or as though they inscribed unto Titus / and Timothy / are not written for the instruction of the whole church / even in that very sentence off imposition off hands. For when Saint Paul taught / that Timothy might not lay on his hands rashly: he taught the whole churches / that they should not choose any rashly. What is I beseech yow in Saint Luke's two books / dedicated unto Theopilus: which doth not as well pertain unto all sortes off men in the church / as unto him? That the holy ghost therefore intituleth his books sometimes unto particular persons / was not that the Doctrine contained in them / should more pertain unto them / then unto others: but ether because he would lift up their head above the rest / or for some other particular circumstance..

And in Master Calvin's judgment / they were both written rather for instruction off other in the church / then for Timothy / and Titus. For there being great resistance made unto those young men / off diverse in the churches off Ephesus / and Crete: the Apostle to supporte them against their adversaries / and to gird them with more authority / so entitled their epistles: that they might know that those things they did / and taught / they nether did / nor taught of them selves / but by his commandment. As therefore all things contained in thes Epistles / were to be known off Timothy / and Titus: so were they all to be known off everyone in those churches. And as there are things in them / the exercise whereof concerned Timothy / and Titus only: so there are other / the exercise whereof / did at no hand appertain to any off them.

As for the circumstance off the place, which he saith is against my reply: he showeth none. But there is a manifest circumstance against him / which the Apostle by and by addeth / keep they self pure, and communicate not with the faults off other, as iff he should say / although thow canst not hinder the ordaining off insufficient officers of the church: yet keep they self pure. Moreover if this writing unto Timothy alone / that he should lay hands off none rashly / should give him alone authority to ordain / and elect pastors: then yt should follow / that not only the church / and elders off Ephesus / but the Bishops which were there together with Timothy / should have been shut out. which iff the D. dare not say / beside that this hold is gone: he must recante the sole election / and ordination by Timothy.

Yow may easily put me out off doubt, off: that which I never dowbted / and which I have somewhere confessed: that by the ceremony off laying on off hands, the whole form off orderinge is understanded. But off that yow should prove / that in that place off Saint Paul it is so understanded (although yt is not that / which can hurt our cause) yow bring not so much / as may induce unto any the lease suspiciō. Your reason that he did elect, because he did appoint: is to simple. For albeit to choose be to appointe: yet everyone which appointeth / chooseth not: no more then yt followeth / that because every man liveth: therefore every thing that liveth / is a man. And I would gladly understand / by what masters off our tongue yow can prove / that thes two words to appoint / and to ordain / differ. Iff they be all one / why seek yow advantage in the one / which you cannot find in the other? But if it be absurd / to say that ordeininge is nothing else but to call, to choose, and to appoint: yt is as absurd / that to appoint is nothing else / but to call / to choose / and to ordain.

I am well content yow expound the place unto Timothy, off puttinge on of hands / by that unto Titus, of appoincting town by town. For I doubt not but that which the eldershippe doth / or one in the name off the eldershippe after the electiō / is therefore called appointinge / or ordeininge to the ministry / because yt is a solemn inuestinge / and puttinge him in possession off that / whereunto he was before chosen. Althowghe Cal. be directly against him in this question / whose judgment is / that yt doth nether belong unto the bishop to choose him self alone / nor yet to ordain by him self alone: yet to help to overthrow the right signification of Presbytery / he is content to follow him / at the leste dowting: leauinge so many both old / and new / which all take that word for a company off those which govern the church. And it is certain that those forms off nownes / are used to signify ether a society: or else the place where a society meeteth. And Calvin him self interpretinge that place / where he had better occasion to consider of it / seemeth to have retracted his judgment: for thus he writeth. They which do here take this word (presbytery) for a noun collectiue, and for the college of elders, in my judgment think well. Althowghe all things considered, I grant another sense will not evil agree: that is, that yt be the name off the office.

If those words as I appointed the, be referred as your learned interpreters will have them / by laying on off hands, and prayer: they help yow nothing. And therefore I will not strive about yt. Where yow say / Musculus meaning is not much otherwise, meaning thereby to conclude / that he mente not to bar Timothy / and Titus off their sole election: let his words then be judge. Hauinge shown howe Mathias / and the Deacons were chosen by the church: he saith / there is no doubt but the Apostles kept that manner of ordeininge. and alledginge the example of the election off the 14. off the Acts / headdeth / therefore after fasting, and praying (which was wont to be done, in the congregation off the faithful) they ordained elders, which were first chosen of the faithful. And this form off electinge, and ordeininge elders, and bishops, the Apostle commended unto his fellow workman Titus, and Timothy saying, for this cause I left the at Crete, &c. for who would believe that he ordained, that Titus should do otherwise, then both he, and the rest off the Apostles were accoustomed to do. And although thes words declare so plainly / that Titus and Timothy chose not them selves alone / but by consent off the churches / as more fuller could hardly be devised: yet to put all owt off doubt / that he mente that Timothy / and Titus conformed themselves to the examples off the Apostles / in the churches election joined together with theirs: he doth immediately add this conclusion. Therefore both by the example, and ordinance off the Apostle in the primitive church, elders, pastors, bishops, and Deacons were in the Ecclesiastical meetings chosen off the people, by lifting up off hands. Where the reader may consider what truth he hath to loke for at the D. hands: which denieth things that have so manifest / and so easy confutation.

And where he saith / that herein although he hath left Calvin, yet he hath followed the judgment of other learned men: he may see that he hath not left Calvin only / but Muscul. Bulling. and Zwingli. As for his learned men, I think verily that Pighius / Hosius / and others off that stamp excepted / he is not hable to allege one / to confirm that Titus / and Timothy had only the election off the ministers. For those alleged / to prove that Timothy / and Titus did ordain / are nothing to the purpose: considering no man denieth that: but that they ordained alone / was to be shown. And •• he had shown that they alone ordained / which he shall never do: yet is not the election off the people thereby shut out: forsomuch as election / and ordination are several things.

What ether godliness / or honesty is in him / which dare so bare faced deny / things so openly untrue: I will leave to be judged of that which is said / touching that the election doth not belong unto the bishop alone / but unto the church. Here I will show that not so much as the ordination / can by the testimony of thauncient fathers / or councils agree unto one bishop only: which is another point that he would have the reader believe / and therefore owght ether to have shown yt / or else to have hold̄ his peace: seeing none ever denied / that the bishop hath to do in the ordination. Firste yt appeareth in Cyprian / that both in the province where he was / and in all other prouincs almost / the next bishops off that place where there was a minister to be chosen / came to ordain him whom the people chose. The great council off Nice / decreed that he should be ordained off all the bishops off the province / at the lease of three. Moreover August. showeth / that when the Donatists accused Cycilian / for that being chief bishop off the Province off Carthage / he waited not to be ordained off the chief bishop off Numidia: the Catholics did answer / that it was the custom of the Catholic church / that the bishop of Num. should not ordain the bishop of Carthage / but the bishops which were next. And in another place of the same book / he showeth that yt was the custom that 12. bishops should be at the ordination off him / which was chosen bishop / and pastor off any church. Which appeareth in the same book to have been observed / in the ordination off Cycilian.

And that yt may appear / that this was by continual consent / and Harmonie off Councils decreed against the ordination by one bishop: that one place off Theodoret iff there were no more / might suffice / where he saith / that Euagrius came to the office off a bishop unlawfully / because only Paulinus ordained him / contrary to the tenure off many canons which provided that they should not be ordained / but by all the bishops off the province / or at the lease by three. Thus yt appeareth that by all antiquity / not only the election made by one bishop alone / but the ordination also is flatly condemned / as unlawful / and contrary to the custom of the Catholic church / and old Councelles▪ whereby is manifest how vain yt is / which is cited owt off Calvin / and others / to prove that because the Metropolitan ordained / therefore he ordained alone.

Yow answer not to the difference I show to have been / between your bishop / and Jerome's▪ yow tell that I took my word (only) owt off Illyricus / as yow did your word off (excellinge) which is untrue. For I gathered yt owt off Jerome's manifest words / which denieth that the bishop differeth from an elder / but in ordination: not knowing whether Illyricus hath that word or no. Nether are yow helped by the college election. Because that there is great difference / between the liberty which may be used in Cyuill elections / and in Ecclesiastical / confirmed even by placinge off bishops with us / whose ordeiners are not also choosers. I have shown how the election / and ordination are done off diverse: and the next diuis. handleth that matter / nether is there anything in your manifold questions / to the contrary: then all which one only reason had been a great deal better. Nether forget I myself one whit / in that I alleged owt off the councils off Carthage / and Toledo: where the ordination is given to the bishops, but no word that the election belongeth unto them. Howbeit because I see yow having not to answer / seek startinge holes: I will not suffer yow to run out thither / nether will I make yr any question between us / whether the bishop may both choose / and ordain▪ yt shall be enough for us / that he cannot elect alone / and without the church / nor ordain alone without other ministers.

T. C. hath many ouersyghtes, because the D. doth not / or will not see / what he setteth down. Yow had to prove that the election belongeth to the bishop: to conclude that yow bring / that he ordained. Therunto I answered that yt followeth not / but rather the contrary / that he ordained / therefore he chose not. I said not symplye that the contrary followed / but rather the contrary. Your example of the virtues, is altogether unlike / they being so •• ncked that he that hath one / hath all four: which is not in election / and ordination by your own testimony / confessing that the election may be the people's / but not the ordination. The example off the foot, and hand, declareth manifestly that I reasoned against that false conclusion off yours / which upon that the bishop did ordain / would needs have yt follow / that he also elected. Yow get no advantage in that the word off election / is sometimes taken for ordination / and contrariwise. For although the words be confounded: yet the things remain still separated. And if yow think that the right off election is gotten to the bishop / because in steed off saying the bishop ordained / yt is said the bishop chose: it followeth that when in steed of saying the people chose / yt is said the people ordained / the people also gain the right off ordination. And iff yow should gain yt / yet be yow never the nearer your purpose / unless yow be hable to show / that the bishop alone / without the church did choose / or without the college off elders / and other bishops did ordain. Therefore in making so great account off this / your hookie is greater then your harveste.

Here be vain quarrels against the quotacion / because yt is said the gloss upon the Act. and not the ordinary gloss: all which return upon Illyricus. Belyke to avoid the place which saith precisely / that the people ought to choose / whereunto the D. answereth not a word: although it be warranted by example off the Apostles / and directly to the cause / which is that the Bishops ordination / owght not to shut owt the peothe people's election. The D. upon the conjunction disiunctiue / would prove Jerome falsified. For that in so much as he saith / if ether the people, or the bishop choose thee to be of the clergy, he would conclude / that the bishop did choose without the people. But he should remember / that if thereby the bishops election be established / without the people: by the same reason the people's election off the minister is established / without the bishop. If he dare not say that / then let him understand / that I have faithfully followed the meaning off Jerome / and that this word (or) is not always a note off separation. Which that it may yet more clearly appear / I will show the like manner off speech off Leo the first / whose words are, no reason suffereth that they should be counted amongst the bishops, which are nether chosen of the clergy, nether desired of the people, nether consecrated of the Metropolitan with the conprouinciall bishops. Here although the bishop use a disiunctiue / as if it should be sufficient to have any off thes / and not all together: yet yt appeareth both by the decrees off other (Which foundinge them selves off those words / have decreed that the people owght to choose with the clergy) and plainly by his words after / that he mente they should all be joined together. For he addeth / when the question shall be to choose the chief priest (which he called before the Bishoppe) let him be preferred whom the consent off the clergy, and people shall require: and after showeth the reason / why the people's consent owght to be had.

I grant that I took Musculus words / for Jerome's: yet iff that make to the purpose / I had redd the place. And Jerome himself / in another place / hath a sentence not much unlike. For in a epistell against the bishop off Jerusalem / he reproacheth him that he despised the laity deacons / and elders / for that he could in one hour as himself boasted / make a thowsande clearkes, whereby appeareth the corruption which Muscu. speaketh of / and which is now used with us / off making so many at a clappe at the bishops pleasure only / both the people / and the elders being neglected: to have been in those times / and yet not to have gotten such footinge / nether to have been so universally done / but that the bishops which used that manner / were thereby subject to shameful reproach. And how cometh yt to pass / that yow send Musculus here without all answer? Which doth both flatly condemn all such odinacions / which are made off the bishop before election off the church and bringeth Jerome for his warrant / referring Jerome (which saith / there was no election off ministers at all) unto that the bishop did appoint whom he lifted / without the consent off the church. As for the place yow city out off that epistle: yt maketh not to purpose. For it is not denied that the bishop hath to do in the choice off the minister: but that he alone hath to do.

How Cyprian is wholly ours in this cause / hath been shown: this exception also is answered. only here it is to be added / that in the epistle owt of which the D. citeth this example of Aurelius / yt is expressly said / that Cyp. did not choose him reader of his own authority / but by authority of his fellow ministers which were present at that time. That he saith here / and alledgeth after owt of Gratians gloss / that the people's interest in elections, consisteth in bearinge wittnes off the good conversation of the ministers: beside that yt is a popish shift (as I have shown) sufficiently before confuted / yt hath no ground in the word testimony, wherout he would pull yt. For by a figure off metonymy he noteth the people's voice: because by giuinge it / they gave also testimony what they the wght off him. Where it is to be noted / that the D. giveth no more to the church off God / then S. Paul giveth to strangers frō yt / of whom he willeth that the bishop shall have a good report.

There followeth the open violence done unto August. words. Where first let the reader observe again / that this wresting of the example of Eradius / against the election of the church / was taken from Pighius / as appeareth manifestly. But for answer unto Pigbius / and the D. it must be understanded / how for that election of Eradius to be bishop after August. decease / there were assembled two bishops besides August. 6. Elders beside Eradius / with the rest of the clergy / and people. For what purpose all thes / if it were in Augustine's pour to choose only? After yt appeareth that Augustine did call the people to have there consent / because he had experience off trouble / and discontentement of the people off Millen: for that Seuerus the bishop there / did appoint his successor before his death / without speaking any thing thereof unto them: which could not be avoided off Augustine / if he mente to choose any against the will off the people. For yt had been better for him to have appointed one as Seuer us did / without communicatinge the matter unto them: then in communicatinge yt / to take one against their willes. Again where the D. upon those words I will have Eradius my successor, would have that Augustine only had the election off him: he is confuted by and by after with his own words / I say that I will have him, because I know that yow will have him. And after he willeth that the public notories / should as well note their voices, as his will in this matter: that (saith he) your consentes fall not to the ground, or become void. Wherunto also pertain / the subscriptions of them which followed. Which although the D. saith are referred only unto the petition off Augustine, to be discharged off the hearing off civil matters: yet the words sound otherwise. For when he required their subscription to those Acts: yt is clear that he must be understanded / to have spoken off both those matters. otherwise he would have required subscription to that Acte / and not unto the Acts.

And where in the ende for another reason he addeth / Augustine was appointed bishop, when Valerius bishop off Hippo was a live: I see not howe it maketh for him one word. For if he think that Valerius off his Authority did it / he is utterly deceived: seeing Possidonius writeth / that Valerius spake unto the people / to provide / and to ordain an elder off the city / and showeth how he was ordained by the consent off all the people. Which thing if it were not more lighter then the none days / off this Epistle off August. yet yt might appear by other / as where he declareth / that Pinianns was ordained off the people / elder off the church / against his will. moe might be alleged / but thes shall suffyse. Sauinge that I must put Master D. in remembrance / howe he merueilously forgetteth him self. For grauntinge me before / that the council off Carthage whereat Augustine was present / decreed that the election should be made by the common consent off the people / clerks / and bishops in the same province: he must here needs confess / that ether Augustine did there join together in election with the church / and the clergy (as they term them): or that he brake the order off the Council / which could not be without his fault / although the election off the church had been (as the D. esteemeth yt) but a thing indifferent. And the truth is / yt appeareth that August. had in that election / an express regard unto the decree off the council: which caused him beside the eldership off the church / and people / to send for two other bishops / to be assistants. Wherupon the reader may see / how there is no light off words so clear / which Phighius / and the Ans. misled / will not give th • nser to darcken.

Besides that Ambrose calleth yt a divine election which is made by the church / which he could not unless yt were by the institution off God: the whole discourse off the Epistle teacheth / that the election off the people is there accounted off / as necessary. For when the church off Vercella did linger the time in not choosing a bishop / when it was also infected with Heretics: why did not Amb. at least by way off Lapse, take the election unto himself / but writeth unto them / reprehending them that they did not ask for a bishop / as other churches were wont to do?

Gregor. Nazienz. speaking there off diverse elections / wherein still the people bore one part / and that without controlment: speaketh more for that election in that one place / then the D. hath hitherto / or in the residue of his treatise is able to show. And where he might seem to have somewhat nipped at it / in showing how at certain elections some off the people were contentious: he healeth that even in the next sentence to this / saying that at that time it was to be feared, lest he owght to judge the popular regiment better ordered, then their own: and after maketh mention off the corruption off those / which were fellow elders with his father. but observe I pray yow again the D. faith fullness / which expoundeth the word churches, the clergy. Where learned he thus to expound? Let it be that as in the scripture sometime / so in the ancient fathers the eldership off a church / is called by the name off church: where can he ever show that the eldership / or as he termeth it the clergy / of one only church / whereof Greg. speaketh / is called by the name off churches? In steed therefore that he should have translated / both the richer, and they off great authority in the church, were clean from that evil: he hath translated / the churches that is to say the clergy, &c taking the nominative plural / for the genitive singular. Which although in the latin tongue / if one take not heed unto the sense / may deceive: yet when the D. had the Greek (which hath off the church) before him / as it seemeth by cyting the Greek in the same place / by and by after: ether he understood it not / or willingly perverted the meaning. So I leave to the reader / whether I have reasoned to the purpose, or no: and whether yow besides words / have anything at all.

As in certain other places / so in this / in steed off that I should have taken the quotacion which came after / I taking the quotacion in my paper book which went before / was deceived: and for the 6. and 7. of Socrates / set down the 6. and 7. of Eusebius. This verily is the error which the D. maketh so great triumphs of. For the first off the places / it appeareth how Chrysost. (there called John / elder of the church of Antioch) was chosen bishop of Constantinople by comē voice of all both people, and clergy: and how he had his election ratified / by the Emperor Arcadius. For the seventh book / yt appeareth that Chrysanthus was chosen bishop off Costantinople / by the people. And when as Sabbatius (because Chrysanthus hid himself / and would have none off the bishopric) gat certain bishops to ordain him into yt: the story showeth / how the people sought Chrysanthus owt / and put owt Sabbatius. diverse other examples there be / which I leave: as I would also have doon thes / if it had not been to have shown / the vain triumphs off the D.

And where he saith / that there is nothing in those 6. and 7. of Euseb. which maketh mentiō of any electiō by the people, but in one only, which he goeth about to wipe a way: that thow mayest know the D. changeth not his skin / I will note them in a word. To leave therefore the election made by revelation / where he saith the election was made by the ministers, and pastors: yt is manifest that the churches had to do in the elections. For in the indorcemēt of the letters / whereby another was appointed at Antioch / into Samosatenus room: as well authority off the churches is pretended / as off the bishops / elders / and deacons. Where also he would clude the other place / first because it was a miracle, then for that by the word brethren, it is not certain whether the people were noted: for the first / yt may appear how vain yt is / seeing the story saith / the brethren came together to choose a bishop. The miracle therefore which came vnloked for off them / and after they were assembled / was to direct them in their election / and not to authorise them to choose. For authority they had before: else they would not have come together for that purpose. As for the other / it is a boldness too insufferable / without showing any one example / and contrary both unto the phrase off the scripture / and aucient fathers / shown in my former book / and off Eusebius himself / as may appear diverse times in someone chapter.

In all thes sentences / set down out of Euseb. there is not a word for the D. nor against us. The D. cōsesseth that Origin taught being a lay man in the church publicly: he cannot deny if he would / but that he taught by the appointment off bishops. Thes two being put / what followeth but that in those days / he was counted a lay man / which toke upon him the ministry upon the bishops appoinctinge only? And that he abuse not his reader with such rouinge treatises / my reason I will set down in a few words. That appointment unto the ministry / which was thought not to inhable to be minister / was thought insufficient: but the appointment off the bishops only / was thought not to inhable to be minister (for Origen that had that appoinctement / and authority / was still coumpted a lay man): therefore that authority only / was then thought insufficient. Eusebius therefore giuinge me this hold / which the D. is driven whether he will or no to confess▪ there is wherewith to uphold that I have said. For if the bishops appointment off Origin to preach / did not give him any degree in the ministry for what cause did it not / except yt be it at I have assigned? his trāslatiō of Euse. words / whē he was yet not ordained minister (wherein another point off this matter standeth) is not warrāted. For by this means / he must take one of his words / which properly signifieth the choice by lifting up / and used sometimes of eccesiasticall writers / for laying on of hands / for a degree: which hath no example. Likewise he must take the other / which I have shown to signify the company of all the governors off the church / for the office off one only elder: which wanteth proof. Beside that Muscul. which translateth yt / seemeth to have followed the sense I have: where if he had followed the D. he would have done otherwise. For in steed of he had not appoinctmēt of the eldership, he would have said the degree of an elder. Where he alledgeth / that Demetrius suffered him to teach at Alexandria, when he was a lay man, belike thereby to prove / that the reprehension of Demetrius / was not to be regarded / which did himself that he found fault with in other: yt maketh nothing to this question. For yt is enough to that in hand / that yt is confessed both by Demetrius / and Eusebius (Which taketh the defense off those / whom Demetrius rebuked) that Origen was a lay man / although appointed to the preaching off the word / by the Bishops. Whether yt be lawful for a lay man to teache the word off God in public place / is another question.

The next sect. I leave to the iudgmente of the reader. Of this great heap which followeth / the moste parte have been brought before / some four times at the lease: they have been thresshed / and there is no yield / it shall be seen that the rest / are no better then their fellows. the places off scripture alleged here / are all answered saving only that of the Acts 13. which is borrowed of Hosius: who useth this place / against the choice by the church. For answer whereunto I say / that it is nor question there off such election / as we spake off: that being the election off God / and not off the church. I for my parte rather think / that it was the voice off God by the Prophets / or one off the prophets: and for proof allege the story in the Crome. which may be comētarry to this. For as the church thē in distress / by public prayer / and fast / received comfort through a Prophet / whom the Lord suddenly in the myddeste off the congregation / raised amongst them: even so the church off Antioch being in great distress / and fear off ruin off the church off God / partly by the sword / and famine / partly by contentions / and serchinge remedy by puhlike prayer / and fast: received by a Prophet which the lord stirred up amongst them this oracle / whereby he shown them a singular means / not only to maintain / but to amplify the borders off the kingdom off Christ. If the S. will not receive this interpretation / but take the holy ghost to have sounded immediately from heaven: yet it helpeth him nothing / there was no place left for any election / but needs must Paul / and Bar. be sent.

Iff therefore the bishop have the spirit off prophecy at any time / whereby he may have such a certain / and infallible direction / as this was / we will les stick with him for his sole election: Iff not / yt is in vain to allege this example: saving that it maketh much against him. For if the lord would have the approbation off the whole company of Doctors / and elders in that election which him self had made / and where there was no danger off error: howe much more ought the bishops election / which hath so many banks both off ignorance / and evil conscience / to put him from the way of a good election / be sustained by the judgment off others. And yt ys untrue that it is plain, that the church was here shut forth. For although yt was nether in the ministers pour / nor the people's / to change this election: yet the fast there mentioned being general / and the accoumpte off their embassage / and success thereof being afterward made unto the church: yt is not unlike but in the approbation which that election could admit / the church also had her parte. That which is here added out off Beza / which the D. would have so diligently noted: is but to waste paper. For we hold that it is moste conueniente / the people should have the ministers / and elders go before / and direct them in their elections. But yt is moste directly against the D. For thereby appeareth that Beza is off that mind / that although the people be ignorant / and intractable: yet they owght not to be cut of from ecclesiastical elections / but directed / and called to some moderation.

Off that which remaineth in this division / the canons called the Apostles / that off Antioch / Eusebius / and others which speak off ordaining / make nothing to this question which is off election: considering that yt hath been shown / not only that ordination differeth from election: but also that the councils from time to time / have confirmed the election by the churches. So that iff there have been any elections made by the Bishops alone: they have been directly contrary to the tenure of the councils. In the council off Nice (although his boldness be greater / then in the other canons) having changed the words off the council / and in steed off ordination / put election: yet hath he no more warrant off the words off that canon / then off the others. And albeit the general answer is more then sufficient / to resist such naked assertions: yet even in this council / it is manifestly to beshewed / that that canō is to be understanded of ordination / as it is distinguished from election. For in the letters which the Synod off Constantinople / wrote unto the council holden at Rome / yt is thus written. Touching the care off the government off every church, yow know that the old decree, and appointment of the fathers off the Nicene council, hath prevailed from time to time: that the inhabitants in every province, taking to them if they will, and if yt be profitable, those which are next adioining, should make the elections. According to the tenure whereof understand yow, that the residue of the churches with us, are governed. Wherupon we have in our general council, set our biship off Constantinople Nectarius, in the sight off the Emperor Theodosius, and clergy off that city, the whole city giving their voices thereunto. And so goeth forward with the election off the bishop off Antioch / and confirmation off the bishop off Jerusalem. Where yt appeareth manifestly / not only that the ordination given by that canon to the bishop / did not shut owt the election off the people: but that yt implied necessarily / an election by the people / and clergy joined with yt. For the Synod saith / that those elections which were made by consent of the church / were made according to the decree off the Nicene council. And if it should be as the D. pretendeth / that the council off Nice meant to give the whole interest off election unto the bishops / and to take yt from the church: then could not that council have said / that they made the Nicene council the squire off their elections / when they admitted the suffrages off the people. And that there be no doubt heroff / I will set down the words off the council off Nice / which are these. Let the people choose, and the bishop approve, and seal up the election with them.

For Gratians distincions with his gloss: first them selves give me defense enough / against all the force wherewith they assail this cause: as when he saith / that the other priests under degree off a bishop, may be ordained off their own bishop, so that both the citisens, and the rest off the priests give their assent. And the gloss upon the second canon off that distinction / saying / the Bishop alone may give the degree unto priests: addeth / alone that is to say, without other bishops. Then I could oppose the authority off Illyricus: which showeth plainly / that the words cited owt off the 63. distinction by the D. be a mere lie off Gratian. Howbeit I will not give ether Gratian / or his gloss that honor / as once to vouchsafe him off any answer in the church of God. And that thow mayest know good reader / what manner of man he was / of whom the D. plunged seeketh help / with commendation also of his interpretation / even where it is condemned off protestants writers off our time / as here thow seest / and further shall appear: I will in a word advertise the.

That whether he were the brother off Lombard / tharchepiller of Antichrists seat / borne with a third brother of a strompet (as they write which cover the shame of his birth) or Lombardes bastard / conceined by a Nun / which by revelation accompanied her self with Lombard: whether so ever I say he were off thes / this is certain / that in gathering the canons off the councils / he endeavored by might / and main / to make them agree with the Patron off the adulterous church off Rome. Therefore in going about / to reconcile thee government off the elder churches off Christ / with that upstart Synagogue off Antechriste / as yt were to make accord between the owl / and the rauen: there is no kind of false dealing / nether in addinge / changinge / dimynishinge / false interpretinge / nor other corruptions / and that contrary to the clear light off words / controrolmente off records extante to confute him / wherein he hath not carried away the bel of vnshamfastnes / from all that ever wrote before him / or in his time. Off thes corruptions there are almost as many both witnesses / and gath erers off our own cotrey men / and of others: as have at any time been exercised in this field off confutation / off the popish religion. As for his glossers / as the Popes hired servants / such as flattered for a cruste off bread / saying yea to his yea / and nay to his nay: they shall go to gether with their master. And let even this place of the D. before a sey off the glosses impudency / in expounding Leos words. For where Leo speaking of electiō / setteth forth the interest of the churches with all thes words / that the minister ought to be chosen by the consent off the people, by the voices off the people, by their good willes, and that none be ordained which they desire not, which they wish not for, which they require not: all thes words this good gloss bringeth me unto this / that the people should only give testimony off his good behavior, which is before confuted. And if he say here that I deal not equally / which bar him off that authority that I have sometimes used myself▪ he ought to remember that a foreine testimony / and witness off an enemy is glorious / and that I having war in thes questions off the discipline / not only with him / but with the Papists / might with commendation strike the • things with their own sword / which he (having herein the same cause which they have) cannot do.

That which is gathered off Ambroses election / out off Theodorete / is moste untrue▪ for yt is manifest / that Ambrose was chosen by the whole church off Mylane / and never a word to prove / that the Bishops had the righte off election: but the contrary by the words / and circumstances off the story. And whereas upon the bishops offer unto the Emperor to appointe one / the D. would make the interest of election / a runninge / and walkinge righte: first as the emperors gave unto the bishops / things which were unmeet for them: so yt was no marvel if the bishops sometimes offered unto the Emperors / that which pertained not unto them. Which may well appear there by the answer off the good Emperor / which refused yt as a thing which he had not to do with / and unmeet for him. Secondly yt is very like / that for the diversities of judgments which were emongeste the people / the bishops perceiuinge that they should run into displeasure off one off the parties / would have been glad to shift off that evil will / and lay yt on the Emperor / which was better hable to bear it. last of all / they offered the Emperor that / which he willed them to do: which when yt was to ordain only / as the issue declared / and not to choose / the churches election can be by no means prejudiced / in that offer off the bishops. As for Chrysostom's 3. book de Sacerdotio, beside that I doubt not but if yt had any thing of Valewe for yow / yow would allege yt: yt is the same authority which Hosius alledgeth / and alledgeth in gross (as the D. doth) against the churches election.

To the D. first reason against the churches election / which standeth in that there have been great contentions, and diversity off minds amongst the churches: I answer / that the Apostles when there fell a contention / and a iarr amongst those off the church / never entered into any such deliberation / off cuttinge away the churches liberty: contrariwise they esteemed the neareste way to heal up the breach / to give them some thing more in that election off Deacons / then was ordinary. For where they were accustomed to show the way in other elections / and by ripeness off their judgment help the weakness off the People / there they suffering the church to go before / followed with their approbation. And not only in respect off that election / but if a man will consider the whole estate off the primative church in the Apostles time: it shall appear plainly / that if there were ever good cause / to take away the churches election through contentions / and diversities off minds / that was in the Apostles times. For the churches off God then / almost throughout the world standing of Jews / and gentiles / and there being such a natural hate between those two people's / as whatsoever the one would / the other commonly would not / and contrariwise: if the Apostles had judged that for reason / which the D. estemeth high wisdom: they should never have permitted any election unto the churches. For albeit the knittinge off both those people's into one profession off the gospel / did mortefy that deadly hatred / which was naturally in thē: yet notwithstanding yt appeareth by diverse places off the scripture / that there were such remnantes off that hatred left / that nether the Apostles them selves which were so wise peace makers / and so kunninge tiers off love knotes / nor yet the ministers / and elders which had received the first fruictes off the spirit off God / could keep them from moste dangerous contencions. And Master Zwingli off whom the D. would seem to receive some succor in this cause / even when their churches were moste dangerously infected with Anabaptistry / and many nourished it in wardly which durst not utter it openly: teacheth that this form off choice by the church / was to be kept. Nether is it to be passed by / that Basil noteth that one Anthimus / in choosinge a bishop without the churches voices / filled all Armenia with sedition. Whervnto add the testimony off Chrysostom: where he askinge why Peter communicated the election withe the Disciples, answereth / leste the matter should be turned into a brawl, and have fallen to a contention. When he assigneth the cause off contention (clean contrary to the D.) that the election was not communicated with the church.

Secondarily iff the churches elections should be taken away / because off cōtentions which happen in them: Monarchies which oft have declyned into tyranny / and been abused to oppression off the subjects / should have had an ende long a go: and other such moste lawful / and necessary aides off this present life / ought to be taken away / as those which are abused. And to come to ecclesiastical affairs / councils by the D. reason owght to have no place in the churches off Christ / off which it is said / that there was never seen good issue of them: and that through marvelous ambition / and desire off contention in them / things out off order were not remedied, but made worse.

Thirdly the examples off the contentions which the D. hath heaped up to gether / beside that they are in parte not off the church with yt self / but off the church with hererickes / which is her commendation / as in the election off Ambrose: beside that also it is noted specially / that the people off Alexandria was off a Mutinous / and stirring nature / and therefore unjustly objected against the whole estate of the church: beside this I say / thes examples alleged by the Answ. are so far from weakeninge the churches election / that they make yt stronger. For notwithstanding those contentions had / under both Christian magistrates / and Bishops: there was not only no counseill taken / to bar the churches off their election: but were (as hath been shown) councils from time to time / to ratify yt. And if the Emperors / and Bishops had not thought yt necessary / that the churches should have interest in their elections / or had thought (as the D.) that both the churches were put in hasarde of false teachers / and the commenwealth off uproars / by reason off popular elections: yt had been great folie / or madness rather / to have suffered that which they might have so easily remedied. Which opinion off the necessity off the churches interest / as yt hath appeared by diverse examples before alleged: so may it clearly be seen / in the letters off the good Emperor Constantine / to the Cytisens off Nicomedia. which although they had chosen to his great grief / one Eusebius Bishop: doth not therefore take away the election from them / but moveth to a new. And albeit they had abused their righte / in choosing such a one as was an Arian / a runnigate from his former bishoppricke / a railer of the Emperor: yet he confesseth still / that yt belonged unto them / to make a hewe election.

Fourthly / what will he say to that / that the people bridled the rage of the scribes / and pharises against the truth / and ministers thereof / in that they were a fraide off them? that the Bishop off the church being an Arian / the people have been for the most parte Catholic? That also the Emperor hath displaced the catholic bishop / chosen by the church / and placed an Arian? Which disorders being often committed by the Bishops / may by the D. rule / as well deprive them of their interest in ordering / and confirming / as the people in choosing. What also that the evil disposition off the people / hath for the moste parte proceeded off the moving off their evil governors? So that people diverse times good / when the rulers were naughte / hath been seldom naughte / whē their governors were good. besides all this / there are other faults off Symonie / off choice off moste dissolute / and most unlearned ministers / wherewith the sole election off the bishops is so infamous / and the churches election scarcely to be touched with: that many contentions off the people / would draw les blould off the church / then the choice only off one such blind / and lame minister / as many off the assemblies off the bishops for that purpose / send forth by whole armies.

Last all / as in other reasons before I have shown / that the D. defendinge the same cause which the Papists / useth the very self same armor / bournished by the names off Zwingli / Calvin / Beza / &c. so here he hath the very self same reason / which the Papists used for the bishops sole election / whereunto Calvin maketh answer. For unto the Papists saying / that the people were shut forth because off the contentions / and tumults which happened often times: he answereth confessing there were such motions / and sturres / but that the taking away off the churches electiō / was brought in for a remedy against those sturres / he affirmeth to be a plain lie. and showeth that there were other ways to meet with those disorders / as to punish them which should move any tumult. And so goeth forward in showing the true cause off the falling away off this liberty / from the church. To all the rest off his reasons I have answered before at large / saving that he hath embossed out this last / with a sentence off Chrysostom upon John / drawn from Hosius: who useth this testimony against the election of the church. Where both Hosius / and the Ans. should have learned / to have put a difference between a confused multitude, and the church off God. For I would ask off Hosius (howe shamles so ever he be) whether he dare define the church off God / which is the spouse / and body off Christ / to be a certain thing full off tumulte, and sturres, consistinge, ad rashly compacted for the moste parte of folie, &c. and yet ether the answer is not afraid to say / that this is the difinition / that is to say the very nature / and unchangeable property of the church off God: or else if he understand yt of some other company / he hath said nothing against the election off the church. And verily I cannot see / howe he could speak more vilely / of the moste disordred rowte / off moste godless people: then he seemeth to do off that assembly / which being endued with the wisdom of the moste higheste / he calleth a thing consistinge off folies: and which being the pillar off truth he lykeneth unto waves off the sea. By which symilitude the scripture setteth forth the estate of the reprobate / or at lease off the wicked which have as yet no society with our Savior.

Therefore to conclude / seeing that the election off the church in her ministers / hath ground owt off the word off God / both in commandment / and continual practice / both in the old Testament / and in the new: considering also it hath allowance off common reason / the approbacion off all times after the Apostles / as longe as there was any sincerity / in peace and perquution / both by councils / and Emperors decrees / both by godly writers ancient / and off our time: and considering he hath not so much as brought an example to the contrary / out off any auror / and if he could yet the same is condemned / not only by the word off god / but by continual good harmony off councils / one in the neck of another diverse 100 years: and forasmuch as the Ans. hath this question of election by the bishop only / common with the Papists / and hath had both sword / and buckler ministered him out off the moste grosseste Papists: I conclude / that both the church ought to have her consent in the election off her ministers: and that the sole authority / off bishops creating ministers / is unlawful.

Unto this question off election / and ordination belongeth the 2. chapter of the 4. tract. of ceremonies in ordaining: off which the 2. Division being answered / and the first / and third unworthy of answer / there remaineth only the fowrth. Againste that he alledgeth / that the bishop might as well say receive the holy ghost to the ministers made by him, as to use the words off the Lord's supper, I replied that there was a commandment for the one, and not for the other: whereunto he saith / that there is no special commandment, Which is no answer. For if the general commandment off kepinge that whole institution / do comprehend this being apart thereof / then the argument standeth. That he bringeth off the minister, saying without inconvenience This is my body, and in recital off the commandments, thow shalt have no other god but me: is nothing worth / seeing the inconvenience is taken away by preface / off God spake thes words: Christ took bread, &c. The place of Timothy with Master Calvin's expositiō / is utterly impertinent. For it is not question whether God doth give his gifts to them which he calleth / or no: but whether he giveth them by this means / of saying receive, &c. where he saith / that the Apostles when they laid on their hands, likely used thes words: it is untrue / considering that Saint Luke / pursuing the leste of those ceremonies which were used / made no mention off it / being in the D. judgment / worthiest off all other to be followed. And if they had used yt / yet yt followed not that the bishops may do it: considering that it was proper only to the Apostles / to give the gifts off the holy ghost / by laying on off hands.

Where he saith / that Christ commaundinge the sea to be quiet, and breathing upon his disciples, confirmed his divinity: I answer that he did the same / in commanding to receive the holy ghost / which otherwise he would have prayed for / as at other times when he gave testimony off his humanity. Calvin although he use not the same example / yet useth the like when he compareth the imitation off thes words / receive the holy ghost, with those being said to Lazarus dead in his grave / come forth, and to the Palseie man / rise, and walk. And his breathing being the Sacrament off those words receive the holy ghost: they must off necessity be referred to the same ende. So that if our Savior would declare his deuinity by one: it was his mind to do the same by the other. And if because he instituted a minister by those words / they are to be used: then the breathing also must lykwise / considering that he used that / for the confirmation off the words. Where he saith / they contain a perpetual promise, off the presence off the spirit, with those which Christ shall call: even so doth the commaundinge off the sea / &c. to be quiet / contain a perpetual promise / that the wind / and sea should rise / and fall / for the profit off those which be the Lord's. But as there is no promise / that that shall be in abating their rage / so foundainly as our Savior Christ did: so there is no word / that the Lord will give his spirit / by pronouncing off this sentence.

The bishop (saithe he) hath no meaning to command. Nether had the Papists: but why he should speak one thing / and mean another / he can show no reason. therefore our fault being in this point / the same with the Papists: hath the same Censure off writers / inueighing against this unadvised imitacion. That which is said / that if any patron off calling is to be followed, our savior Christ's ought: is a gross begging of that in controversy / and then apparently refuted / in that our Savior Christ gave new names in his ordination / sent forth two by two / commanded they should carry no weapon / &c. which can have no place in our ordinacions. Where I alleged that the reason was not one in thes words / and in the words off the supper / in that the minister doth not command that the bread be the body / but saith yt is: he answereth nothing.