A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1

8. Diuiston. pa. 149.

Here is to encounter withe Zechariah the Prophet / Cyril / and such a corrupt sentence off Cyril / as doth at once / both overthrow under the law / the justice of God against sin / in the world to comme: and under the Gospel / all manner off corporal punishments in this world / to be executed by men / upon those which having done evil / repent them. For yt doth not only affirm / but yt goethe a bowte to prove: that the sin which was under the law punished by corporal death / could not be punished off the lord / by eternal death / which as it is a wicked error (the reward off sin being not only death off the body / but off the sowle also:) so the two pillars whereof yt standethe / are as detestable.

For the first / which is / that they have suffered punishment fo their sins, and received the reward off their wickedness, so that for that fault which they so suffer for, there can be no revengement afterward hange over their souls: yt is no les despiteful to the justice of god and injurious to the death of Christ: then the popish doctrine of supererogatiō. For if an adulterer by suffrīg death for his crime / hath answered the justice of god / so that the lord for that fault / cannot take aduenge mente of his sowle: when a man suffrethe without cause and for righteousness sake / howe ought he not beside his own purgacion for sin / purchase somewhat for him that lackethe?

As for the other reason / yt is moste false. For the lord, punish the one sin / by other sins / by death in this world / and by death in the world to come, yt is also a false ground off the Pelagian heretic / wherewith he would prove / that our original corruption is no sin / which can deserve the wrath off God. And as the former parte fright the for the Papists / and for the Pelagians: so this other / standethe for the Anabaptists / men whom the aswerer pretendethe / to have war withe / but to whom in deed / he ministrethe weapons (such as they be) to fright against the truth. For if this be not Anabaptistical / that there is no bodily punishment laid upon public offenders under the gospel, and that whatsoever offense he committee, if he show tokens off repentance, he may be delivered from bodylie punishment: I know not what is Anabaptism For what murderer is there / what traitor / &c. which although he be never so vnrepentante / and obstinate in his sin having heard tell off the answerers gracious pardon / will not enforce himself / to show all tokens off repentance? which if he do / the eye off men's judgment being not hable to perce further / then to thes outward signs: they must have him for repentante / although he remain the same which before. And if there be one such sentence / in all either the admonition / or my reply / so injurious to the office off the magistrate / so pernicious unto all manner of common wealths / as this is: we refuse not (that I may also promise for the Admonitors) to be taken as enemies / unto the magistrate and as ouerturners off common wealths. For this is the sword (which S. Paul put in the magistrates hand / to be drawn not of pleasure / but off duty / not against the vnrepentante only but against the unrighteousness off those which shall publicly offend whatsoever) either stricken clean out of his hand: or else if ante remain / yt is more worthy to be called the sign off the sword / then the sword. Now if two notable errors / be hable to prove one truth: he may be thought to have brought something / for the iustifyinge off this pullinge down off the walle off the common wealth. But iff it must needs be false / which hath nothing to lean upon but error: I doubt not but as the untruth of yt doth by yt self appear: so by this so shameless defense / yt is laid more open.

And where he saithe / that this sentence off Cyril, may Minister occasion of quarrelinge unto such as be disposed: I answer / that there can be no peace withe this sentence / but by betrayinge the truth: and that the untruth of yt is so apparent / that all the patched shifts which he hath / shall never be hable to hide yt. But howsoever yt be (saithe he) this is euidente. What: forsooth that the quantity off sin is not to be esteemed, according to the external punishment. Howe is it euidente / by what word / or by what sentence? if the authority off the sentence fall: iff it consistinge upon two partes / have never a one true: if in that very point for which yt is alleged / yt is moste false: where ys your Howe so ever? yow are a dangerous adversary to deal withe all / for whether the profess yow ^t bring be true / or whether they be false: they fall still upon your side.

But if the heynousenes of the sin / be not to be esteemed according to the corporal punishment: whereby is it then to be esteemed? according (say yowe) unto the commandment of god, according to the threats of god pronounced against yt. As though yt were not the commandment off God / that there should be bodylie punishment: and as though the civil punishments in this world / were not parte off those threats / wherewith the lord threateneth the breakers of his law. Yow make therefore an opposition / where none is: And it is all one as if yow had said / the corn may not be moten withe a bushel / but withe a measure. For as the busshell / is one measure: so is the corporal punishment / both one off the commandments / and off the threats of god / against open sins. Solomon prouethe Adultery to be a greater sin̄e / then theft: for that where a thief was not / the adulterer was purswed unto death, wherbie it is manifest / that She lomo was of this judgment / that in open faults / committed against a godly / and honest peace: the greater faults owght to be punished / with more greauous punishment. And if equality of punishment in unequal faults / be injustice: how much more is yt injust / to punish greater faults / with les / and lesser with greater punishments? And therefore that nothing should be wantinge / to prove the doctor a perfect confounder / and tumbler of things in to the heaps of disorder: he doth not only put no difference / between the things which are separate: but in those also which are joined together / he imagineth such enemitie: as if the one standing / the other could not remain. And as for his reason / that we see smaller faults punished withe greater tormente: the questiō is not what we see done / but what ought to be done. I graūte that one / and the same fault / may be punished sharpelier in one contrie / then in another: in the same contrie also sharpelier at some time / then at another: But I deny / that thereof yt followethe / that in the same contrie / and at the same time / a greater fault should be punished withe light punishment / and a lighter withe a great: which thing / seeing yow except against a general rule / owght to have been shown. And the vanity off this startinge hoole / which is sought in the diversity of contries / may partly appear / in that to the people off the Jews / and in the country off Jewry the lord did never make law / to punish a les fault / by a greater punishment. And yet yt is certain / both that people and country / had something different from others: and that in gyuinge laws to that people / he had respect booth to them and their country. whereby I conclude / that diversities off punishments / according to the state off the countries / may be established: although there be no such disorder committed / off punishinge small faults grievously / and grievous faults. smallye.

And whereas he saithe / that he maketh the difference off the severity off the law, and lenity off the gospel no further then in respect off the temporal punishment off the law: even that is the very point / wherein a great parte off the error off the Manichees / doth consist. For they were led / to condemn the justice off God under the old Testament: because off the owtewarde punishments / which were exercised / partly by the hand of God by judgments from heaven: partly by the ministry off men / at the commandment off the law / therefore the savor off Manichisme / is still as hot as ever yt was.

And because I am entered into the mention off this / although the answerer cannot hyrte off yt: yet the truth is / that even in thes outward punishments / the dispensation off God under the law / is diverse from that which is under the gospel. For under the scolemastershipe of the law / as he crowned the obedience of yt / for the moste parte / withe greater abundance off outward blessings / then he doth the obedience off his saints under the Gospel: so did he withe more terrible / oftener / and more manifest judgments / revenge the breach off yt in that time / thē he doth now. And herein indeed is the difference which he is gropinge a bowte: but that this should bring any diversity / in the set and ordinary punishemētes / prescribed by the law: I for my parte cannot understand / The contrary rather I can gather. For even as although the lord doth not now by outward blessings / give so plentiful testimony unto the obedience off the gospel / as then off the law: yet the magistrate ought to be as diligente / to procure the Good off the church / as ever he was in the time off the law: even so / although the lord by bodily punishments / doth not so seuerelie revenge as he did then: yet the magistrate / may not remit any thing therefore off that severity / which he was wont to use. Nay more: even as the magistrate / ought so much more carefully procure / the outward welfare of the church now: as the lord withdrawethe his hand that ways / more now / then he did then: even so ought he to keep / by so much a harder hand / over the punishment off sin now / then he did then: as the lord / more rarely thundereth by his Judgments from heaven / now / then he did in the time off the law.

And surely / if there ever had been any time / wherein the magistrates sword might have rested / and rusted in the sheathe: the time off the law / of all had been fitteste: when the lord / did so visiblye sit in his iudgmente seat / and him self in proper person / hold the assise / and gaile delivery. The causes off that diversity / between the law / and the Gospel / which I have alleged / may be fetched from those learned men / which handle this point: yt is enough for me / so to have helped the answerer out / withe that which he travailed with: that I have not only shown / howe this cause is nothing hindered / but greatly helped thereby.

If the plain words off the Prophet Zechariah / will not serve for our purpose: what shall become off your cause / that hath never a word of the scripture? let us then hear / why it will not serve. Because forsoothe by that means, the parents should have pour of death upon their children: and therefore their must some other sense be sowgthe / then that which the words do proporte. Wherunto I answer / that Moses showing what ought be done / agaīste those false teachers / which go about secretly / to withdraw frō the true worship of God: saithe / that although he be his brother / his sone / his dawgther / or his wiffe / he shall not spare / but fill them. Tell men owe I pray yow / doth not Moses mean there truly / and as his words sound / that the false teacher shall die? If yow dare not deny yt: then yow see / your reason which yow here assign / is nothing worth: for there also / yt is commanded to the father / to kill his son.

Now if yow list to learn / yow may perceive that by thes words / understanded simply / there is no pour given to one private man / to kill another / nor for the parente (as a private man) to kill his children: but this manner off speech / is grounded upon the law off God / whereby yt was provided / that the witness which had accused / should throw the first stone against the convicted person. for so much therefore / as booth Moses / and Zacharias after Moses / will have the father accuser of his own child / if the knowledge off his inticemente to Idolatry / remain withe him alone: therefore also they ascribe the killinge of the guilty person unto them / as a thing belonging unto the duty off the accuser.

But seeing this sense please the yow not / let us here what yow bring. If (saithe he) yow will refer yt to the time of the gospel, then this is the true meaning: if to the time off the law, then that. If all be gospel yow speak / we must needs believe yow▪ if your words have no further authority / then yow give them by Good reason / and conference off the scriptures: then casting a way the sense / which hath warrant off the manyfeste words off the Scripture: yow should have confirmed by substantial arguments / that which yow have set down. The proud Sorbonistes / and Magistri nostri off Paris / did never usurp a more absolute authority / and more out off rule then this is: And yt is to bring in an intolerable Tyrannie into the church off God / and lordeshippe not to be abydden. Which when I understand off all interpretations off men / be they never so learned / and sharp: much more off such wooden interpretations which the answerer thrust the upon us. But tell me Good Sir / what difference is there between your first interpretation / and your seconde? For iff under the gospel, it be lawful (as your exposition suppose the) for parents to kill there children which shall prophecey falsely: what leave yow to the Jews / wherein they differ from the Christians? and tell me also / howe yow differ herein / from that which I set down: that Idolatry ought to be punished withe death under the gospel?

But pardon me / I think I see your difference / which is / that the Jews must do yt according to the law off Moses / and the Christians according to the law off whom? why kept yow back that? Surely iff the Christians be bound to do yt (as your interpretation saith) they are bound to do yt by the law off Moses: for I know no other law off precepts / but that.

There is yet another difference / which your words may give suspicion off: that is / that the Christian parents should rather put them to death / then be withdrawn by them: so that the Jews have a simple commandment to put them to death / but the Christians have yt under condition / if they cannot otherwise keep still the true worship off God. But where / and in what shopp is this difference coined? Whose Image / and superscription bear the yt? the Doctors. What Paul's? no Whitgyftes. I know him not / yt is not good. For howe shall they be sure they shall not be withdrawn by him: unless they procure him to be put to death? And although they were out off peril off being withdrawn: how are other provided for / whom he may corrupt? And if it were possible that poison which he hath / could not hurt any other: where is the revenge off Godds glory / which hath been dishonored by such false teaching / and in the maintenance whereof / the zeal off the children off God / as well under the gospel as under the law / doth consist? Thes differences between his interpretacions he giveth incklinge off / but the folye off them was so apparent / that he durst not lay them open.

And althowge we have already to many interpretations by one: yet here comethe the third. And this is an allegory / which expoundeth killinge, confutinge. Where first / the answerer should have remembered / that he condemned in the Admonition allygoryinge as Papistical / (which in deed is not so much Papistical / as Anabaptistical) allbeit they fetched their allegory / from two famous men / master Hoper and Master Alasco. Here yt is Catholic in him / that was there Papistical in them. then observe Good reader / howe he that challenged the Admo. For making the holy scripture a nose off wax, and me that I make yt yt a shipmans hose: hath here set up three interpretations off one / and the same place. Off which although never a one / can stand with a nother: yet because he thinkethe they all make for him / he stickethe not even to strike him self / to give a prick unto the truth.

And as for master Luther / I answer withe Jerome: which (albeit he did not so well practice it him self) yet in one place of the smaller Prophets (that cometh not now to my mind) saithe / that to seek for an alligorie, where a Plain and literal sense may be had: is to seek a knotte in a rishe. Seinge therefore the scripture meaneth here as it speaketh / and calleth a spade a spade / and a fig a fig: to expound killinge confuttinge, and corporal weapons spiritual / and heretics heresies: is by Master Luther's Good leave / out off season.

Futhermore if Master Luther should by confutinge off their herysies / shut out the corporal punishment off death: he hath the Answ. interpretation (which he calleth thē true meaning off the place) for enemy. So that either master Luther's meaning was / that they should not only put them to death / but also confute their heresies: or else yt serveth as well to overthrow that / which the answerer hath set down / as that which we maintain.

But observe here I beseech yow / the shameful practice off the Answ. If Master Calvin / or Master Gwalther upon thes places / had had any thing for him / that should have been set down: iff they had had nothing against him / he would (as h • hath done in diverse places) have used that nothing / as a prejudice unto the truth: now he perceived they were directly against him / he is fledd to Master Luther / to borowe this sentence off him. What iff I had alleged the authority off Master Calvin / Master Beza / Master Martyr / Master Gwalter / and diverse others / for the confirmation off this sentence / that heretykes ought to be put to death now / as well as false Prophets under the law: what if I had brought master Calvin's / and master Gualters interpretation off this place off Zechariah / expoundinge yt as I have done (whereof also one off them / callethe those fanticall spirits / which contrary this doctrine) What place should Master Luther's allegory have had / against such an host off learned men / cominge so strongly with substantial arguments / fetched from the simple meaning off the scriptures? Yet all men of any reading know that this might easily have been doon: if I would have sought to prejudice your parte / by the authority off men

I concluded only off that place off Zechariah (against your fond distinction) that the same severity off punishment / that was used against false Prophets then: ought to be used now under the gospel / against false teachers / comparing one parson / and circomstance withe a nother. As he that hath fallen away from God / and goone about to draw others away: to be handled according to the law prescribed in that chap. 13. off Deut. if this be bloody, and extreme: I am content to be so counted / withe the holy ghost: and then shall not yow smell off Manichisme / but be a flat Manichean. And although in other cases off Idolatry / upon repentance life is given / as in the examples off the Lenytes / fallinge away from the truth / in the general reuolte off the people: yet in this case off willing sliding back / and moving others to the same: and other some cases / which are expressed in the law / as off open / and horrible blasphemy off the name off God: I deny that upon repentance / there ought to follow any pardon off death / which the Judicial law doth require.

And where yow say / that there is no example, from the nativity off Christ unto this hour: first yow greatly forget / how evil yow entreat them which reason negatively off authority: and how yow cry out upon them / which (as yow say) off a thing not done, conclude yt ought not be done. And this reason is yet worse: for yt would conclude / that no Idolater repentante / should be put to death / because there was none so handled / within a certain space. Then yow may understand / that the princes which have maintained the gospel all this while yow speak off / by whom thes executions should have been done / have been both few in number / and off small endurance off time. And yet although Constantyne the Emperor were to mylde a prince / and did as Eusebius witnessethe / much harm in the church with his clemency: yet he made a law as Socrates testifiethe / that as many as were found to have any writing off Arius should die for yt. iff that were put in execution / as is to be thought: the example thereof comethe nothing behind in severity / that which is here defended.

Thirdely they did not lack / Good / and faithful admonitours to use this severity. For one writing unto the two bretheren Emperors / Constance / and Constātins / showeth that they ought to punish Idolatry withe all severity: and alledginge this law in 13. Deutr. and another off the destruction off a whole city / which shall be partaker off such slyding away / saith / that they are commandments unto the Emperors. I have read also in some story / off Aluredus a Kinge off England which made a law / that whatsoever he were that went from Christianity to Paganism / should render his life for yt. and not only the new testamete / but the old also / is the store house where out we take our arguments / to prove the truth / and to impugn the contrary. Therefore yt is an evil argument / to say / yt cannot be shown out off the new Testament, therefore yt is not true: when as a man may rather reason / that forsomuch as yt cannot be shown out off the old testament / therefore yt is not true. Consideringe that there is no doctrine in the new Testament / which is not contained in the old: and there is somewhate in the old Testament / which is not to be found in the new. And yet forsomuch as I have shown / even out off the new Testament / that he that killethe a man / and takethe away his corporal life ought to die: yt followethe much more / that he which takethe a way the life off the sowle / should die. And iff yt be meet to maintain the life off man / by the punishment off death: howe should the honor off God / which is more precious then all men's lives / be withe smaller punishment established?

Therefore to close up this question / I will ad this: That the magistrates which punish murder / and rheftes / and treasons / withe other transgressions off the seconde table severely / and are lose in punishinge the breaches off the first table / begin at the wrong ende: and do all one withe those / which to dry up many rivers fedd continually by one fountain / begin at the channels where yt deuidethe / and partethe yt self into many arms: which as yt is an endless labor / so is this also that they Goo about. For when as S. Paul teacheth / that God for just revenge off the dishonor off his name / and staininge off his glory / give the men into wicked minds / to the cōmittinge of all kind off sins / contained in the second table / be they never so horrible / and so maketh the breach off the first table / cause off the breach off the seconde: yt cannot be (let the magistrate late as Good watch as he can / booth multiply / and aggravate his punishmētes as much as he can) I say yt cannot be / but where ether the first table is broken / or the breach not dewly revenged swarms off treasons / theftes / murders / adulteries / perjuries / and such like / must needs break out in those gouernmētes. And therefore as the short / and easy way to dry up the channels / and rivers is to stop the head / and fountain off all: so the only remedy of purginge the comēon wealth off thes pestilences / is to bend the force off sharp and severe punishments / especially against Idolaters / blasphemers / contemners of true Religion / and off the service off God And therefore I conclude / that those which would have the severity of the law against Idolaters abated / do at unawares / not only thereby utter the small price which they set / ether off God's glory or of the salvation of their brethren: but withal declare them selves enemies to common wealths / and off all both civil / and Godly honesty of life.

Your conscience Master W. and the conscience of all men bear witness / that both here / and almost everywhere / yow wringe my words clean contrary to my meaning: and therein I am well content the Iudgemente remain with the reader. And although I am fully persuaded / that there was no occasion taken off evil by this doctrine: yet if any wear / it being the doctrine of the holy Goste / whoso ever hath taken occasion of evil / hath without repentance borne his punishment: and so shall yowe moste assuredly in that day / wherein the mouthe off wickedness shall be stopped.

Yt may not be passed by / that he in the begininge of the first of thes sections / matched the laws off the Jews / which were the laws given by God him self / withe the laws of the moste barbarous / and Profane Tyrant that ever was: such is the reuerece he beareth to the laws of God. Note also that where I say / that I will join withe him, that the transgressions off the law under the gospel, are to be seuerelyer punished, then they were under the law: He in pretendinge / and making a brage that he would join / slyppethe me clean a side / and saith / that he will join withe me that the magistrate is not bound to the judicial law off Moses, for the manner off punishinge: as though that were any thing like / that which I propounded. And in that he answerethe no one word / to the two reasons which I alleged / that is to say / for that both the knowledge off the law is greater now then thē, and other gifts off the spirit off God, whereby the law should be better kept, more abundantly poured out now then then: he doth not only slyppe a side / but turnethe his blind partes towards me.

Now to return back / to the Diuis. pag. 123. I leave to the judgment off the reader / howe importunate an adversary the D. is: which requireth answer of that / which hath been so often answered. In the next Diuis. p. 124. seeking to maintain his logic in dividing / and defining / he maketh him self pytifull / to all that ever saluted that scoole. For what an absurd saying is yt / that because the definition off a general thing, agreeth unto his particular: therefore yt is the definition off the particular? As though everything / which were verified of another / were by and by the definition off it: or as though the same could be the definition / of the general and of the special. And what a miserable defense of his diuisiō is yt / which to prove that his three last partes / are not contained under the first: alledgeth / that they are not all one with the first? But as I promised / I will leave this to the learned reader: that I leese not the time / in confuting off these tryfles. The rest off his section is answered before.

In the next / beside the sentence which I deny / and he untruly fathereth off Zwingli. that in Ceremonies, things are to be used in the church, which are not contained in the scriptures▪ There is nothing / which maketh anything unto the questiō. For where he saith / that I mislike that of Zwingli. (If they be not repugnant to the word) I have told him before / that I never found fault with that / but because he condemned the Ad. which will have thē caste in the mould off the word off God. And as for Master Beza's sentence repeated here / off discipline left in the order off the church, and that some things doon off the Apostles, are not always to be followed off us: whereby it seemed the D. would make the reader believe / that he meaneth this / off the pointes of discipline now debated: if I should herein charge him with untrue dealing / upon Master Beza's book off Epist. Which declareth in so many places / and words / that there is a Discipline off God left unto his church unchangeable / and precisely determined in the word off God: and howe he maketh the partes thereof / the same which the D. fighteth against with might / and main: he would peradventure say / that he could take no notice off that / which was not yet brought to light. But when the same book from whence he drew thes outorities / mainteneth those partes off discipline touching the Eldershipp / the consent off the church in Eccesiasticall elections / the right institution off Deacons / &c. as necessary / which he will have arbitrary: he owght to have understanded / that those things which M. Beza noteth / under the name off Discipline left at the order off the church, are nothing less then these / which he would insinuate. Which he might yet easilier have understanded / by the place which he alledgeth out off the Corinthes / that leaveth yt not in the churches power / ether who shall govern / or what they ought to do which must govern: but howe that government which is prescribed / may be used most decently / in regard off circumstance off time / &c. For even in that place / the Apostle defining off certain pointes of discipline / (as that women ought not to speak in the church, &c.) declared sufficiently / that he meant not to leave the government off the church / in her own disposition / and order. But what M. Beza meant by this arbitrary Discipline / yt shall yet better appear in the next tractate / off the Election off the church: where this here spoken generally / shall there belaied open by example. the rest off this Diuis. is answered.

In the next Diuis. I leave yt to the judgment off the reader / whether I have truly gathered off his words. As for the defense he maketh to prove / Truly and Purely all one (for so he must / if he maintain his answer) the first reason he bringeth / (that a man may preach true things, and not truly) is clean overthrown by his own answ. for to overthrow (that which he falsely attributeth unto the Adm.) that the word is not truly preached, because the Ministers are not duly called: he saithe / that the reason is not Good / because ho we wicked soever the man be which preacheth, yet he may preach the true word off God. Here ether the Ans. must make to preach true things / and to preach truly all one: or else he hath not answered to the argument he supposeth the Adm. to use. The other is / for that S. Paul useth these words in truth, for sincerely. Wherein beside the former fault (which is the contrariety with him self) he should have learned / that that manner off speech / is taken off the Hebrews: which as they call a lie / not only that which is spokē / but that which is doon / or imagined against the truth: so likewise contrary. Which manner off speech not being received in our tongue / is fondly / and out off time pretended: considering also / that the translations in our tongue (as in others) have shunned that phrase / as that which they could not reach unto.

Tract. 2. and 3. according to the D. Off election of the minister.

Cap. 1. Diuis. 1. Off the Trial off ministers in learning and conversation.

THe reply standeth upon the certain / and infallible ground off the word off God: which is / that the church owght not to put forward any to the holy Ministry / without good trial off his sufficientie. Then yt is upholden / off the words off the text / that two were set up / and caused to stand before the congregation. For after that saint Peter had declared / what manner off man he owght to be / which should fill up the void place off Judas: immediately S. Luke showeth / that two were put up / as if he should say / consider whether thes he such / or no / as ought to chosen / and which agree with that which is required off him / that must supplye this place. The reason whereof was / for that all the men which where in the church at that time: were not capable off that function / having by no lykelyhood been with our savior Christ continually / from the begininge off his preaching / until the day off his ascension.

And unless that S. Peter mente to subject those unto the trial off the church / which were to be chosen: why instructed he the church / and gave a rule to sever / and try them by? After the church agreed / either by voice / or by silence / that they were such as behooved: S. Peter went forward / and conceived a prayer as followethe there in the text. And that this is the plain / and natural order off that action: he that hath but one eye / may easily see. The scripture is short / and in a few words comprehendeth many things: and touching certain pointes off a story / leauethe other to be gathered off the diligent reader: sometimes which was done before / by expressing that which was done after: other sometimes that which is done after / by expressing that which was done before. Whereoff (if need were) yt is not hard / to show diverse examples: And thereof is that sentence so often used off the Hebrew Doctors / 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 The Scripture stayeth yt self upon, or presumeth an understanding reader: without the which yt shall seme very insufficient / that ys most perfect / and without the which / a great portion off the word of God / ys lost.

And where as yow say / that yt is certain that there was no trial, because they were sufficiently known: first / yt appeareth not by any words in the text / that they were sufficiently know̄. And considering that (as yt comethe commonly to pass / in a persecuted church) there were by all likelihood some / lately come to the church they might be well unknown to thē / although they were well known to others. Thē the questiō is not / whether they were examined or no: but wether they were set up to be tried: so that iff there were a proferr off trial / although no trial followed: the place ys aptly alleged. For albeit they were known to the whole company / so that there needed no inquiry into their behavior / or other things which are in the compass off the church / to judge of: yet that ys no cause / why they should not be offered to the examinaciō. Nether is yt reason / that the known habylytie off someone / or two: should break an ordinary law / in the church off God. And yow that have served yourself / more thē once / or twyce / without cause (as shall appear) off the manner of civil elections / to overthrow the Ecclesiastical: might here by the consideration off them / have been delivered / from this abusing off your self / and others. Yow know in the election off follows / and scolers / where the law commaundethe an examination before the election although the parties to be chosen be never so sufficient / and there sufficientie never so well known / to all to whō the choice belongethe: yet the offer of themselves to be examined / is so necessary / that if that be not: they cā by no means be chosen. If therefore man's law / in such small elections / hath such force / that yt will give place to no man's excellencye / or singularity: how much more owght the law of God / which byddethe generally without exception / that they should be tried which are promoted to the ministry, in so great / and weighty an election / to keep her force?

Where yow say / there was no other cause off presenting them, then that which is expressed in the text: tell me what cause is expressed / off presentinge them in the congregation? surely none that I read. those two which I alleged in my reply / are gathered / but none is expressed. So that if there were no other cause / off there presenting / then that which is expressed: there should be none at all / and that action off the Apostles / should be to no purpose. What express words are there in the text, contrary to this trial, or at the lest offer off trial? the words should have been noted / the meaning should have been beaten out: where we need your help / there you forsake us. where the meaning is clear / and without controversy / there you trouble yourself / and us booth.

If yt be a rule to be followed yt must be followed wholly, saith the answer. This is very definitively / and magistrally said: and being a dangerous error (as that which tendeth to the overthrow of the chiefest heads of Christian religion) is notwithstanding farced / with scoffing questions in derision off the truth. I never learned, nor I do not use / to add, or take away from the word off God: I expound the scripture / and gather off it / which is not to add: and in saying / that something is not to be followed off us, I take nothing away: for I confess yt to be so as the story reporteh. And although that parte be no example to follow: yet even now / and to the ende / yt conteinethe a profitable doctrine. But if I take away from the scripture / because I say / that some Parte of that action is not to be followed: you do much more / that say / nothing thereof ys to be followed. I distinguish beweēne that which was for a time / and that which is perpetual: and to distinguish / is not to dismember. Al the revelations I have / are owt off the revealed word off God: I know that this parte off this action, touching the examination / ys to be followed, because yt is confermed by other places off the scripture: the other not so / for that yt hath not / the like confirmation. This spirit off slumber / whearwithe the lord hath stricken yowe in that yowe say / that if a rule be to be followed yt is to be observed wholly: shall better appear when I come to yower answer / of that which is written in the 51. and 112. pages of my former book / where this is handled.

No doubt (saith he) this is an extraordinary example. As Archidamus said to his son̄e / being to venterowse / and boldhardy / either put to more strēght, or take away some of this courage: so I must admonish yow / that either yow would come stronger withe arguments / or else goo softlier / to thes doctoral determinations. Is yt without all doubt, that all things are here extraordinary: nothing of necessity to be followed? For so yow say / when yow will not have yt followed in other parte / because someone is not to be followed. What is yt not necessary / to admonish those to whom the election off the ministers belongeth: to tell them what manner a one owght to be chosen? if that be not / yet ys not this necessary: to commend the election of the minister of the word / to the prayers of those which are present at the election?

And where as he saithe / that yt being extraordinary, is not off necessity to be followed; he should have said / that being extraordinary / yt owght not to be followed. Now when he granteth them to be such as may be used / although not necessarily: he concludeth against him self / that they are not extraordinary. for as those things which are ordinary in the word off God / owght to be followed: so those things that are extraordinary are by no means of us / without an extraordinary spirit / to be followed: things which may be done / or left undone / are nether ordinary / nor extraordinari / but have a mean nature between both. But as it is in in proverb / the egle ketcheth no flies: Master D. hath greater matters in hand then thes: and yet to keep the propriety of speech / profiteth much / to the keeping off the pure nes of doctrine.

But the words off master Calvin (saithe he) are plain. So they are in deed / plain to show your great untruth / and plain to show that which I contend for: that is / that although some things are not to be followed: yet other some things in this election / are and ought to serve / for the direction off the election off the ministers now. And because you shall not abuse the reader / nether with the denial off things to be so / which are manifest / nor guilfull escapes / wherewith yow go aboughte to defeat the authorities which I allege: although yt be much against my will / to lenghthen my book with translating so thick / and threefold of other men's sentences into mine: yet being driven to yt / I had rather be somewhat troublesome to the reader: then that your dishonest practices should not appear / to all that will not willingly close there eyes against the truth. But before I cum to master Calvin / I will set down Cyprians words which are there commended by master Calvin. Cyprian therefore (speaking off the election of a Minister) writethe amongst other things / thus. God commandeth that the preyst should be placed before the face off the whole congregation off the Jews: that is to say, he doth teache, and show, that the ordeininges off the ministers, ought not to be made, but withe the knowledge of the people standing by: whereby they being present, either their faults should be discovered, or their virtues commended: and so it may be a just, and a lawful ordination, which is by the voices, and judgments of all examined. The which after ward according to the dyuine mastershippe, or authority, is observed in the Acts off the Apostles: where Peter speaketh unto the people, off ordaining a bishop into Judas place. Off which place first yt appeareth / that the people not only had / but ought to have to do / in the appointing off there minister: and that not by any custom / or decree off men / but by the eternal word off God / both in the old / and new Testament. Also / that their right consisteth / both in examining the life off him which is to be chosen / and in the approbation off him if they like off him / or refusal iff they like him not: which Cyprian proveth both by the 20. off the numbers / by this place / and the sixte off the acts / which he also citeth.

Now I come to master Calvin. After he hath in the 13. section / shown that the election off the Apostle into Judas place / is no certain rule for our elections: he showeth further whearin yt is no rule: namely / for that the election there was committed to lotte / the vocation off an Apostle so requiring / that by the judgment off the lotte / as yt were by God's own mowthe / a successor might be appointed in steed off Judas. But in the 14. section / he showeth the lord so approuethe off the judgment off men (which he after expoundeth the church) that even in the Apostles appointment / which have this prerogative that they should be created immediately from God / the judgment off the church should not be passed by: and to that endecitethe the 13. off the acts and 2. verse / and this place off the first off the acts and 23. verse / and off those places gathereth a perpetual document / to establish the discipline / and order off the church in elections / forever. Whearby appeareth / that master Calvin's mind / is not (as the doctor would make us believe) that there can nothing be gathered out off this place / pertaining to our elections.

Afterward / confuting them which upon the places off Timothy / and Titus / gooe about to prove that the election off the ministers / is in the Bishopps pour, he saithe thus / Well therefore said CyPrian, while he contendeth that yt cometh off the authority off god, that the minister should be chosen the people being present, in the eyes off all: and should be by the common judgment, and testimony approved worthy, and fit. And forth with reciting Cyprians words (before alleged) and quoting this place off the Acts / he concludeth in this sort: we have therefore (saith he) that this is the lawful vocation by the word off God: where those which are chosen, are appointed by the consent and approbation off the people. Here again yt is manifest / that Master Calvin useth this place off the Acts / to prove that the election ought not to be without the approbation / and consent off the people. Furthermore / speaking against the popish election / for that in yt all is in the pleasure off the bishop. He citeth Leo and Cyprian / which prove that by the word off God / the church ought to have her interest / in the election off the minister: and many Synods / which do severely prohibit such elections / and if they be made / command that they should be off none effect. Then concludeth / if thes things be true, there is this day in popery no canonical election, nether by God's, nor by any ecclesiastical law. And if there were nothing else, howe can they excuse them selves, that they have spoiled the church off her righte? And so goeth forth / with confuting off the same reasons off the Papists / which are afterwards alleged off the doctor. This may be sufficient / to let the reader understand / howe the Ans. would shamefully abuse him / with the authorytie off M. Calvin. Wherein I do not forget / that in going about to prove that this place off the Acts hath place in diverse pointes in the ordinary election / I have together with those places / belonging to the examinatiō / pressed also those which touche the election yt self. Which I did pourposely that I might not be compelled / to set down thes places again a litell after: Where yt being alleged for the election / which is here alleged for the examination / receiveth the same answer off the S. which this doth.

Unto my reason in the second Division / that if an examination be necessary for a deacon yt is much more necessary for the minister, (against that he said / that the fixed off the Acts, could not serve to prove any thing, touching the ministers election, because yt was off deacons) he answerethe not / but passethe by quietly / and maketh no words. But his other saying / that there is no mention made off any trial, he holdethe still for good / askinge me what one word off trial is there? I answer / that albeit there be not this word try, yet there is that which weigheth as much: for the greake word loke out, cannot be severed from a trial. And if S. Luke had but used the simple verb / which in our tongue signifieth consider / yet that off yt self had force to have lead the choosers to a trial / off them which were to be chosen: now vsinge the compound / thereby he laid upon them / a greater necessity / and a more careful diligence off trial off them. Where iff the Aposteles had not mente herby / to have called the church to a diligente serche / and trial off those which were to be choosen: they would have contented them selves to have said / take from emongest you, &c. And although the whole church had knowledge off those which were the fittest to be chosen to that office (which is both unlike / and almost impossible / seeing there were certain thowsandes off late added unto the church): yet even those which are well know̄ unto us / when they be to be chosen unto such great charges / are to be inquired into a fresh. For that knowledge off a man / which is sufficient for us to live with him in private society / and common course off life / is not enough to promote him to such a dignity in the church: and that experience off one / upon confidence whereof we durst trust him with our weightiest affairs / is not sufficient thereupon to commit unto him the lords matters. So that considering the weight off an ecclesiastical office / the manifold creuisses off man's dissimulation / with the dullnes off our sight to espy them: there can be no fear off too much trial / evē off those which we think we know already. And therefore although the whole church / had knowledge off those which were apt for that office: yet the Apostles admonition / off diligent considering whom they chose (which could not be without trial) was not out off time.

Again that the Apostles give in charge unto the church / that they should chose such as had testimony off there good behavior: pertaineth to the examination / for the church in seeking testimony off there good conversation / tried them what they where. And unless this be trial: touching the conversation off him which is to be chosen minister / in the church of England there is no trial at all: considering that the trial which is had / is by the testimony off certain. So I conclude that this place off the acts / making for the examination off the Deacon: is much more strong / for the examination of the minister. To the next section I answer not.

Diuis. 4. What is in the beginning off the boke / because you set it not down / and I have not the boke to see: I will leave to everyone to consider. Howbeit the words which I allege out off yt / where (speaking to the Archdeacons) he saithe / Take heed that the persons whom you present unto us be apre and mere • &c. declare that the bishop passethe his election / upon the only examination off his Archedeacon. But yt maketh no great matter howe many examine / seeing the election / and ordination hangeth only upon the Bishops pleasure. And he partly seeing / that all the matter standeth in the courteousie off the Bishoppe: and partly (as yt seemeth) willing / that that gowlfe should swallow up / all other men's interrestes in this election: setteth him self to prove yt.

And where as I alleged / that yt is not safe in so weighty a mater, to commit that to the pour of one, which may be with less danger done by many: he goeth about to prove / that the bishop is off all other fittest for that matter. Wherein observe / that the D. is quite goone from the cause. For the question is not / whether he be off others most fytt: but whether yt be fytt that he alone should do it. So that if he will have it a reason against the cause / this yt is: The bishop is more hable then any one / to make a good examination / therefore more hable to make yt then a great sort: more hable to make yt then any one / therefore more hable to make yt alone / then when he hath other joined with him. Which is all one / as iff he should have said: The righte hand is more apt to do things then the left / therefore yt is better they be done by yt alone / then with the help off the left. I do not here take exception / against the longe experience in thes things, which he saithe the bishop hath: yet he cannot have it at his first orderīge of ministers: and others might have yt as well as he / if the examinatiō were as well permitted unto thē / as unto him. I medell not also with the bishops either sound learning, or ruled affections: which what they be in some / is well known / what theye may be (considering that they be not tied to the rochet) yt is easy to be considered: Let him be as well experienced / learned / affected / as such a biship may be: yet hath he won nothing by all this / but that the biship owght not to be shute out / in this examination.

Where he saithe / Surely if any one man, or mo be void off such affefections, and thought meet to have such matters committed unto him, yt is the Bishopp: yt had been good he had assured that Surely: with some reason: otherwise yt must (as yt is) be holden for an vnshamfaste begging / of that which is denied. And off the same sort is that which followeth / that if he be worthy the office off a bishop, he may safely be credited, with all things incidēt unto the same: for this is that which lieth between us: whether yt be incident to the office off a bishop to have thonely examination off those, which are chosen to the ministry. Which if I could give you: I would / to be rid off thes importunat askinges.

Y • followethe not / because civil matters which touche the commodity off this life / may be committed to one: therefore ecclesiastical also / which concern the life to come / may be so hazarded. Nay for so much as mans insighte into ciuille affairs / and judgment in them / is sharper then in matters perteininge to the church: it is clear / that there ye more help required in thes / then in the other. Besides that / when as princes by taking counsels unto them in their weighty affairs off the whole realm / and for better deciding off private men's causes / appoint whole be • ches off Justices / standing off five / or six: they do sufficiently declare thereby / howe they have the Judgment off one (be he never so wise) greatly in suspicion off error.

It is sufficient that the prouer be off moo eyes seeing better then one, be true for the moste parte / which is the nature off a proverb: And in making off laws / the law giver respecteth what is for the most parte expediēte / and not that which may be good sometimes. For otherwise it might be said / the bishop should not medle withe the election / but his chapleine: because yt may happen / that he is more hable to medle in that matter / then the bishop: It is no small owtrage yowe do the church off God / to account off yt / as off an ignorant multitude. For unless yowe mean the church / when yowe say / then a thousand other which be ignorant: yowe speak beside the matter / seeing we do not permit either examination / or election off the ministers to every multitude / and blind assembly: but unto those only / which make an open / and clear profession off the truth. Therefore yowre glorious / and great speeches always off the Bishops / are affectioned / and aspire somewhether. For if they preceded off the fear off God: yt cannot be / but that fear of God / and spirit of humility / which taught yowe to speak so of them: would have spoken much more reverently off the church / whose servants they ought to be. And when yow say / or that in such matters be far inferior to him: if yow mean ten thousand off those which be off the church: the voice is strange / and needed some reasons to acquaint us with yt: especially seeing it touchethe (as yowe think) the cause. But yowe wander still / and the prouer be yowe confute not. For let yt be / that the bishop seeth more then 10000. off the church (which proportion being more unequal / then that between the son / and the mone / carrieth withe yt a sent off the popish insolency) admit I say that the bishops eye be so good: yet if the church have any eye at all / that being joined with his / will see better then his alone. And that is the meaning of the proverb / not to compare one good eye with many bad: but to show / that that which alone i • hable to do somewhat / withe company / and help is hable to do it better. And therefore unless yowe will have yowre bishop so full off sight / that he can leave no thing unseen: and to have received the spirit without measure / which is only proper unto our savior Christ: yowe have yet brought nothing / to show why he ought not to have the assistance off others / in the examination off the minister. S. Paul refusethe not to learn of the church off God / in those things wherein he went as far beionde the bishop, as any bishop can go beionde the simplest of his diocese. Apollos was instructed / and tawghte of a pour handycraftes man / and his wiffe. In the counsel of Nice / a simple man / and one that knew nothing but Jesus Christ / both overturned / and turned a Philosopher / whom all the 318. Bishops / could not move. both S. Paul / and Apollos / and the 318. Bishops / were off Singuler knowledge in those things / wherein they were aided / and desired to be aided / off those which were a great deal inferior unto them. What honey have our bishops eaten off / that they can see so clearly / into the fitness off a minister: that the church off God / cannot both see that which they see / and that also which they have overseen? Belike yt is / because our bishops are more sharper of Sighte / then ever any were: and our churches more ignorant then any have been before. And if the churches were tawghte of them (wherein they are for the moste parte / smalliest beholdinge unto them): as the plentiful knowledge of the church / should have been a seal of their abundance: so whatsoever is said off the ignorance / argueth now the want of their knowledge / and in the ende retourneth to the weight of their condemnation. Which if it were well considered of him: yt seemeth / that for the ialousie he hath over the estate of a Lord Bishope, he would have spoken more reverently off the church.

Whereas yowe say that offices off greatest charge are only in the Princes choice: Still yowe confute your shadow: for I speak off those elections wherein diverse have interest / sainge that yt seldom cometh to pass, that upon one man's report off his ability which is to be chosen: all the rest which have interest in that election, will give their voices. What word is here / which giveth occasion to speak off the princes elections / which are made by her self alone? yowe have therefore picked a quarrel / to speak off the welbestowing of offices / unless yt should be some profit unto your self / which yow imagined might come by sprinkling off thes fair words: I see no ende of yt. sure I am / yt is no answer unto that / which yt pretendeth. For my parte / I will not contrary that yow speak / of the good bestowing off the offices by the prince: And I am well assured / that some of them be bestowed / of moste worthy men. But yt is good for princes / to have as it were ears off horn / against such sweet songs as these be: and notwithstanding them / to stire up them selves to greater warenes in the bestowing off their offices.

Therefore to let pass the offices off charge in the comēon wealth: for the Ecclesiastical charges / which her majesty bestoweth / although they be off the greatest porte: yet they will appear / not off the greatest charge. unless yow mean charge actively / that is to say great charge / and unprofitable burden unto the church / not bearinge the church / but borne of yt / even almost to the breakinge off her back. And those also (as I think) are not chosen off the prince alone, but named only / and chosen off the canons off that sea / whereof he is to be appointed bishop / and confirmed off the Archbishop. But lett yt be here observed / that Master D. seemeth by affirmation off this thing (although falsely) without saying anything against yt / to gïue the election off the bishop only unto the Prince: which if he may do in the bishops / which he taketh head ministers: much more may he do it / in the other ecclesiastical orders / which he accounteth under the bishop. here first I would know / wether he will stand to this / or no: or whether having nothing to answer / he used this for a shift. Then whether the Bishops will take in good parte / this translatiō of the church righte into the hands of the civil magistrate: and whether for there tēporalties / as it wer for a mess of rise potage / they will suffer the churches inheritance to be thus riotowsly alienated: to be offered where yt is not asked / to be given where it is not received. And iff they be content to parte from this iff need be / that they may keep the other: or be content that master D. forrewarde off his proctorshipp / should have the disposing off it at his pleasure: then I shall have something more to say in this behalf.

The election off ministers / committed to the bishops alone / is made off custom / that is twice a year at the least / iff any come: at the entreaty off some in authority of tentimes: and not upon any need off the church. For when almost / is the request of such as be in authority / refused in that election? In deed there is no extreme suit / the door is not so hard locked: there neadeth but the lifting up off the latche. And yt is also I grant without contention, For howe can the bishop contend with him sele? Vnles he and his conscience sometimes fall out / which contention is to be wisshed / that it were greater. And set me all the borowghes / and cities together in the whole realm / where elections pass by voice: yowe shall find / they cannot all afford / so many unworthy officers: as have swarmed ministers / from the sole election of the moste parte off the bishops in England. If your affirmaciōs be so clear / that yowe dare comēitte thē so barely without proof / to the judgment of mē: I dare with better reason / let these go: which are donne before the son / in the conscience off all men: which the brwte beasts them selves would witness / iff they could speak.

If he be condemned off the Apostle / which judgeth off one man's action before the time / that is before he seeth what it i • ▪ what great presumption ys it / thus to judge the church off God? And therefore that I be no partaker off your sin / and plage / which (without repentance ensueth): I answer that I think they will choose the meteste: that they will follow the lord / before the lord of the town, if the lord off the town draw not with the Lord: that they will not do one off their neighbors pleasure, to the dishonor off the lord / and the hurt off all them selves / and the whole congregation: that the peace off God / not contention will be in the church off God: that they being the church off God / and the mystical body off our fauiour Christ / shall have an hable / and fit pastor / if they have one like unto them selves: and so shall be like people, like pastor. And iff a whole church assembled together in the fear off God / with invocation off his name / be ouercaried by affection off love / or fear / to chose him that ys unmeet / the bishop may much more / being but one man / subject to the same passions they be: unless yow can happily show some prerogative / to exempte him from the common infection. So for any thing yet alleged / the light off reason / rather favoreth the election off the minister by many / then by one. Now let us see whether the holy scriptures / wheruppon we lay the weight off this election / receive any better answer.

To youre answer to the • . and sixte off the Acts / yow have my reply before. And where yow add further to the first off the Acts / that Master Beza saithe / that they were not presented by the multitude, but by the Apostles only: I know not wherefor yow should bring that in. For I say not that the multitude had the presentation: yt appeareth manifestly / that no one had the handlinge of that action / which striketh the bishops sole election to the heart: yt appeareth also / that the judgment / and consent of the church was required / which is that we desire. Master Beza writeth thus / Augustine with whom this whole chapiter is read very corruptly, interpreteth this word they set up, he set up, not without a dangerous error, for here was nothing done off Peter, by him self as one endued with greater dignity: but every thing is done publicly, and by voices off the whole church. Vppon the word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , he saithe thus / The strength off this word, which is to ordain by voices, is to be noted: that we may know that Paul, and Barnaba • did nothing by their own private pleasure, nor exerciced no tyranny in the church, as the Romish Harlot doth now, and his assistants which they call ordinaries. And in other place upon the words / lay not thy handee suddenly upon any, &c. That is (saithe he) admit not all without choice to any Ecclesiastical function, as much as in the liethe. For all the authority was not in Timothy: but after the election made by voices off the whole church (as we have said of the electiō in the 14. of the Acts, and as appeareth by the election off Matthias, and the Deacons) he that governed the company in the name of the whole Eldershipe, did by the putting on off his hands, consecrate him that was chosen. And in another place were the apostle willeth Titus / that he should appointe elders town by town: he referreth the reader to his exposition off the place off the 5. to Timothy / and the 14. off the Acts. And in the same chapiter (out off the which master D. hath borrowed this place) he showeth / that albeit all those things are not always to be followed / which were done in the apostolical elections: notwithstanding that they had one unchangeable ende. and asking what that was he answereth amongst other this / that nether pastors, nor Deacons should be thrust upon the flock against the will thereof. And after in the same chapiter he saithe plainly: that it is tyranny, that the gouuernours off the church, should be given unto the church, without the consent thereof: also that it belongethe to the Presbytery / to choose the offices off the church / when they be void. There are a number off moe places to be found in hī / to this purpose / that I may leave owt hear it. epistle in his boke of epist. (because I suppose yt is in every man's hands) which is moste clear for the deciding of this controversy.

To come therefore to the examination off this dealing: first in that he saith / that it had been a dangerous error, if S. Peter had done any thing off his own authority, without the assistance of other the Apostles: in that he saithe / that Timothy had not, not only not the election off the ministers, but not the ordination in his pour, but that which he did / he did in the name off the rest off the eldershipe: and in that he saithe / yt belongethe chefly to the office of the elders, to choose the offices of the church, as often as they be void: and addethe / that he never found in any Christian church established, that kind off election which is in the pour one: yt is clear / that he utterly condemnethe as altogether unwonted / as usurped / as tiran̄icall / that election which is made by the bishop alone: and that this is one of the substantial points / off a lawful Ecclesiastical election / that it be donne by the Eldership. Secondly / in that he saithe / yt was the unchangeable purpose off the Apostles, to provide that the governors off the church, should not be thrust upon the church, against her will: that Paul, and Barnabas, to then-tente they would bring in no tyranny into the church, permitted the election off the elders unto the voices thereof: that they bring tyranny unto the church, which without the consent of the multitude, at their one pleasure, call any unto a public function in the church: yt is moste manifest / that master Beza holdethe this / for another substantial point off a lawful Ecclesiastical electiō in a church established / that yt be made with the people's cōsent. So that yt appeareth / that the election made by the Bishope alone / receiveth off Master Beza two deadly wounds / as yt were in the heart / and in the head: one / for that it is not as well done by the authority off the Eldershipe / as by the bishop / or pastor: another / because yt is not done by the consent off the church. Now what do we require / in the election off Ecclesiastical officers / which Master Beza doth not? we require / that yt be not permitted to one, he detestethe it as tyranny: we say / that yt ought to be done by the elder shipe, and by consent, at the leste off the people, he saithe / the same.

What are the things then / used in the Apostles elections / that M. Beza saithe may be altered: and whereof there is no certain rule prescribed / which the church is always bound to follow? forsouthe thes things / as may be easily gathered: that where sometimes the people upon particular occasions / did first choose / and the approbation off the governors did follow / other sometimes / and for the moste parte / the governors went before / and directed the judgments off the people: that in this circunstance / the church should be at her liberty / to order / and use which off these ways she should think moste f • tte / having regard to the times / and other circumstances / which might move to take ether the one / or the other. Again where the Greciās used in their elections / the cerimonie off holdinge up the hand / to testify their liking off him that was chosen: other (as the Romans) going from one side unto another (Whereoff cam / pedibus ire in sententiam): others by silence / did approve that which was propounded: that in thes / and such like the church might use that ceremony / which is both received in that place / and leste subject to slanderous speech. And that which the Answ. hath brought here / doth especially belong unto this: and is given off M. Beza where he showeth / that the manner off the Asians was / to testify there consent by lifting up of hands.

But off what things so ever in the election / that rule is given: Yt can by no means take away the election from the Eldershipe off every church / nor the people's consent / to put all in the Bishops hand: Seinge that (as hath been shown) he maketh these twoe substantial points / off a lawful ecclesiastical election. And if the Answ. will accord us those: we shall soon agree for the rest. Vppon all this matter I leave to the reader to esteem / howe ether vncircunspectly / or unfaithfully / M. S. hath not borrowed / but taken away whether Master Beza will / or no / his sentences to overthrow that / which he so often times / and in so vehement words / so plainly doth establish.

Now for your questions yowe pray me to answer / although they come so often / that yow may aptelier be called the Questioner, then the Answerer, and that I need not by any order off disputation / be driven to speak to such flying demands: yet I am content / to let yow use this advantage off venting them after this sort / which yow cannot put in any form off argument / and which being a little streighte girte / shrink a way / or ever they come to be examined. But I must pray yow also that where your questions be no weightier / yow will be content that I answer them as shortly / as yow propownde them: Albeit I have in effect / answered them already in this section. I say therefore / that where the Apostles in the first off the Acts / good before the rest off the church / and direct them: that is the moste convenient way / for ordenary elections: as that which was both moste used in the Apostolical elections / and which is borne up by apparent reason: which is / that they should show the way to others / which are likeste to know it best. And whereas the people present first / and then the Apostles approve after: for as much as that roose of a particular occasion / which was / for that the Apostles dealing was somewhat suspected / as not altogether indifferent / but to much bending to the poor off their one nation: if the like case should fall / the like remedy may be used. beside that / that election off the Deacons might be more safely committed unto the people / then that off the pastors: the people being more able / to judge off their ability in disposing off the money / then off the knowledge required for the preaching off the word. The casting off the lots / for so much as yt was to this ende / that the election off an Apostle should be immediately from God / and not by any man's voice: that consideratiō ceasing / the lot also in ecclesiastical elections (howsoever yt seemeth otherwise to some) ought to die. In the sixth off the Acts the imposition of hands / being used in all elections by the church / and hauig a profitable advertisement / that he which is ordained / is set a parte from the rest / for the service off the church / and that from thence forth / he must not serve him self / and his / but the church: and containing also an assurance off the lords hand / and help always ready in assisting of him: must needs be holden still for ordenary / to be used in all elections. The prayer be fore the lot in the 1. of the Acts / being expressedly used in all elections: And being now by so much more necessary then it was then / as the ability is less now in the choosers / then yt was then: must needs be thought a pattern / to frame owre elections by.

And where yow say / there was no such thing as prayer in the 〈◊〉 off the Acts: yt is a token yow have little truth in yow / which will deny that which is expressed manifestly in the text. for although S. Luke doeth not declare / what were the words they used: yet there being prayer made for them there was such a thing. That in the 1. Act. two were presented for one office / that was / that way might be made to the divine election by lotte: that one only was taken / was because there was but one place void. That in the sixte of the acres 7. were presented / was / because the church was thought to have need off so many / for the prouysion off their poor: that all were ordained / was for that the Apostles liked well off them all. Be there yet anymore behind? I looked when yow should say / that in the first off the acts there was a bowte six score / in the sixte almost six thowsande: there but eleven Apostles / here twelve: there speaking withe one tongue / here with many. For the matters in controversy / that is to say / whether the people's consent is to be had / &c. Thes differences would have served yow / as well as those: and possibly if they had taken yow in the head / yowe would never have let them go / without giving some tribute to the lengthening off your boke. But in all this diversity yow reckon up / there is a perpetual harmony against the election made by one bishop: against the ambition off the elder which thrusteth out his fellow elders: against the church robbers / especially which bend there force / to spoil the people of there consent / in election off their ministers. If yowe had shown any diversity in this: yow might have helped your cause somewhat.

To those which are blear eide / one light seemeth two: and there fore to M. D. which hath the eye sight off his mind scattered / they seme to differ which agree well together. I well remembered what I wrote, and yt hath not the weight off a feether / to ouertourne the election off the minister by the people. For yt followethe not because one deacon is inferior to the pastor: therefore the whole church is inferior / to ether the pastor / or the deacon: or the deacon may not choose the pastor / therefore the whole church may not choose him. But this had been well concluded: one deacon is inferior to the pastor / therefore much more one of the people: and one decon cannot choose a pastor / therefore much less one off the people. Which might have been casely considered / by proportion off the body / which S. Paul doth so often point out the estate off the church by. For set a parte the head / which is our savior Christ: and there is no one parte so noble / or so necessary / but being compared together with all the partes off the body that are under yt: it giveth place / and is inferior unto them.

And it may be shown by example / that they that in a society be equal / yea superior unto any one in that society / are notwithstanding inferior to the whole. Peter / and John were equal / unto any two / in the whole college off the Apostles: and yet they were inferior to the whole company off the Apostles. For being sent off them / they must be inferior to those that sent them: and being Ambassadors from them / they received commandment. Paul / and Barnabas were by their dignity off Apostleship / superior to any which were in the church off Antioch: and inferior to the whole church / for the cause before alleged. Furthermore / we do not permit the choice off the pastor to the people only / but to the choice off the eldership: so that although the people alone / should not be superior unto the pastor / yet all together are / which have to do in that election.

And although thes things are so plain / that they could not lightly be hid̄ from him / that hath but moved his lypp to the cup of sound divinity: yet master D. standeth still amazed / merueiling as he that having stepte many years / whē he awaked / thought all things strange. Thes are the know̄ laws of the house where yow were borne / where also yow undertake professiō of Do. yt is a great fault that yow are a straūger at home. The people's examinatiō off their ministers especially / standeth in their behavior: And seeing in the church off God / from him that cleaveth wood / to her which grindethe in the mill / there is none so ignorant / but know / and can give reason off principal points off the Christian religion: the Elders (which be the flower off the church) can much less be so ignorant as yowe make them. Naashe the Amonyte / meaning to dishonor the people off God / thought yt reproach enough to the Gilcades / if he might have put out their right eyes / and (although a barbarous / and cruel enemy off the people off God) yet would have satisfied him self with that; but yow are not cōtente with that / unless yow put out both their eyes / and leave them as blind / and ignorant bussardes. Thes reproaches off ignorance / so oftentimes caste upon the people off God / are not spoken with the toūge off Canaan / but is the proper dialecte off the Papists / and yt is reprochefull not unto men / but unto the son off God / whose body the church is / and whereof he is the head.

The prophet speaking off churches which should be gathered under the gospel / saithe / that the earth shall be full of the knowledge off God / as the waters which cover the sea: the accomplishment whereof may appear in all places / where there is any teaching minister / which doth the office of a faithful pastor. I could a great deal easilier / bear the reproaches which you utter against me: but when I hear yow thus rail upon the lords host / so indefinitely speakīge of the churches of God / yow are intolerable. yet if I should speak against this / as oft as yow give occasion: I should never have done. And if nether yow will cease this language / nor those that should look unto yt / will stope this incircumcised mouthe: I will commit the cause unto the lord / and wait for his judgment.

Off the means of an exacte examination off the ability off the pastor / without the help off the lord bishop / is spoken in another place: where shall be examined / what the D. hath to say. It hath appeared howe untrue yt is that the Deacō is superior / or hath moe gifts thē the rest of the body of the church. And besides that yt shall appear in place / a moste absurd saying / that the deacon is above that elder which I mean (for I mean the same / which S. Paul meaneth) there was no occasion at all here to speak / off the superiority off a deacon unto a senior. For ether he ought to prove a deacon / above a pastor: or else he hath said nothing / to that which is in question.

In the 308 page the Bishoppe is avowed to be a Pastor, here he is Superior to a Pastor, and therefore no Pastor: for there can be no comparison / but between two things at the leste: and yt is very strange / that a man should be higher then him self. So that to defend these bishops / and Archebishops / the Ans. hath need have a new grammar / and a new logic: for they transcende / and go beionde all the rules / that ever yet were heard of. I know what is used with us, but is that a sufficient answer? is this your defense off the book? I prove him to be deacō / and yow cannot deny it: therupō I conclude / that he is inferior to the pastor, and yow say / I know an archdeacon withe us, may be minister off the word. But the Question is not what he is / but what he may be by the word off God: for yow ought to have shown / that a man may have the order off pastor and deacon at once. For if he be but a deacon / and no pastor: then being inferior to the Pastor / he ought not by him self alone / judge of the sufficiency off a Pastor. if he be both a Deacon / and a pastor / at once: then in stead off ministers / yow bring monsters into the church / and make off the hand and the eye / which are two members / but one. Vnles yow will say / that he that is promoted from one Ecclesiastical degree unto another: kepethe the same still which he had before he was promoted. by which reason / the bishop / and the Archbishope are deacons also: because they sometimes had that degree. And then yt is required off them / that they do the offices off all those functions / the names Wheroff they bear: for there are no idle / and void names in the church / which can be severed from doing the dewties / that those titles require. And it is as if a man passinge from one office / or dignity in the common wealth / unto another / until he come to the highest: being in that office / or dignity / should be said still to have all the under offices / and dignities by the which he hath passed. And not that only / but when a man from private estate / is called ether to office in church / or common wealth: together with the public parson / which he hath gotten / he keepeth his private estate still.

Yt hath been sometimes (I grant) that either through ignorance off the institution of God / or through ambition of some / which desire to have all in their own hands / or upon some extreme necessity / the pastor hath donne that which belongeth to the office off a deacon / and contrariwise. But although I should grant / that one might be ordained to be both Pastor / and Deacon (which is as monstrous in Theology / as yt is in nature / that one / and the same should be half a man / and half a woman) yet yow help not yourself that way. For in saying that he may be a minister of the word, yow confess that he may be also none / but a deacon only: whereof also there are examples i • in our church. Last off all / those Archdeacons which have the degree off a pastor in our church / do not examine by that they are Pastors / but only in respect that they be Archdeacons. And so whether he be pastor / or deacon together / or deacon only: the disorder remaineth still / that the inferior / and he whose calling is contented with smaller gifts / is made judge off his sufficiency which is superior / and whose calling requirethe greater gifts. Whether the Archedeacon have the examination committed unto him only: I refer me unto the book off ordering ministers / and to that which I have before alleged. Here I would have the reader mark / that this disorder / of ordeininge ministers / at the testimony off an Archedeacon / came from Rome: as Jerome both notethe / and confuteth.

This reason is altogether different from the seconde. For although he were by never so many / and never so well examined: yet were it unlawful for the Bishop / to admit him / as this third reason doth suppose / that is to say / upon the credit of the Archedeacon, without his own knowledge. which I do not gather off the words off the Archdeacons presentation (as yow would make me) but off the answer of the bishop / Take heed that the persons whom yow present unto us, be apt, and meet for their godly conversation, to exercise their ministeri dewly, to the honor off God, and edifyinge off the church. which words whether they have that sense / which I allege: I leave to all men to judge off. the form off the universities presentation, helpethe yow not: because there is no such answer made by them again unto the presenter / upon which I ground my argument. and yt maketh much against yow. For I dowte not / but that form of presentation / by someone of that faculty / whereof the presented person is / was therefore brought in: because neither all the university / to whom he is presented / nor the vicechauncelor / off whom he is to be admitted / can always take knowledge off his sufficiency / for the degree he asketh. As the vicechancelor being a lawyer / neither he / nor diverse other off the university / off them selves are able to judge / whether he be meet to practice in phisike: but are driven to stay upon the faith off the presenter, so that yow likening herein the Archdeacons presentation to the universities: do thereby confirm / that bishops admittance is oftentimes suspended / off the trust of the Archedeacon. I would yow had that reverence of the holy scriptures / that yow pretend often: we should then pass this controuersic easily. But for the place whereof it is said I make a shipmans hoose: yt shall be seen / how trwly yow have spoken. For the declaration whereof / I take the 10. verse off that chap. For when S. Paul saith / let them first be tried, and then minister: yt is as much as he should say / that he should not apply them to the ministry / before they were tried. Whereupon I conclude / that if that place command Timothy / that he should not apply any to the ministry / before trial: the same implieth / that he should try them. for so much as any other man's trial without his own / is no trial whereupon he might proceed / to the applyinge of them to the ministry: especially considering that otherwise / he should offend against that which he forbiddeth in another place / off sodeine laying on of hands. And if it be said / that it is to be understanded of the deacons: the answer is that iff he command that off the deacons election / much more he requirethe it in the Bishops. And whereas he saithe / I am still contrary to myself: I ask him wherein? In that forsoothe I thereby conclude / that the bishop should be the examiner. where did I ever deny it? But if he think any thing grow unto the lord bishops / or that therefore the biship alone may examine and ordain / because I grant that he hath interest in booth he hath overcast / the sum is not so great. To show that the same owght to be the examiners / that are the choosers / it is sufficient to have shown it in one: the law being the same in all / which is in one. That it cannot be restrained unto Timothy alone / which S. Paul commandeth him to do: and that he was no bishop / but an Evangelist: shall be handled hereafter. Yow that charge me with contrariety / where there is no color: must be here this second time admonished off off this fault / in this short section. for in affirminge not once / nor twice / that those things which touche the election is that epistle, are spoken unto Timothy alone: yow affirm that plainly / which yow deny unto me / that is / that S. Paul maketh the same the ordeiners / and examiners.

Solomon saith / that all the words of the mouthe off god are plain to him that will understand, and streite to them that would find knowledge: Wherefore I marvel not / if the answer (because be would so fain have a broad way / where he may drive a sumpter horse / and is nor content with the lords path way) find many difficulties / and stops. But alas what pains he taketh in lifting at a fether. And of the three difficulties that are here moved / two of them (which are touching trial of him by sermon, or otherwise, and the fear least he should be an hypocrite) fall as well into the bishops choice / and examination as the people's.

Therefore the answer is / that that means which the Bishop may use / before he is Minister for his trial: that also may the church. And as the hypocrisy / which uttereth not it self / before judgment given off taking him to the ministry / steineth not the circumspection off the Bishop: no more can it blemis he the trial / off the church.

Ther remaineth only / whether to take knowledge off him / he should come dwell with the parish, and how longe, and at whose charges, and whether before the death off the former pastor, or after. If I should say / that the journey he taketh to the biship / he should bestow in going to the parish / and be amongst them / what would follow? then he must be there a great while / or ever they can have trial off him / and thereby grow charges. As who should say / the whole church cannot take as good notice off him / as the bishop being but one: or as though the bishop can take better knowledge off his conversation in one hour / then the whole church can do in one week. If therefore the church / for trial off his conversation / have need to keep him at hir charges a quarter off a yere: the bishop hath need / to keep everyone that he will admit / in his house a whole year. Which if he should do / I dowte not but we should have an easy disputation. And if the Bishop may proceade to election / upon the testimony off others: why may not the church do the same? That which was in old time touching colleges off learning in every city: might be now much more iff the Bishops palaces / and the Canons cloisters / which serve now to nourish a sort off idle seruinge / and singing men / were turned into colleges / and nourceries off painful students.

Wher yowe say / but admit all these impossibilities: No admit nothing: hold all that yow have / for all is to little. Whatsoever pertaineth to this cause / we are (God be praised) able to get it at the swords pointe / I mean off the word off God. yow take me up (for if and and) In all my whole book where have I so many / as yow have in diverse pages? But what are thes dowtfull dowtes? In your first if (which is if the parish be wholly or the most parte ignorant) for parish / yow should have put church / that is to say / the number off those which do profess the gospel off Christ. For as in the time off persecution / when there is no Christian magistrates / the church seuereth those / which being off the paris he / are none off the church: so when there is a Christian magistrate / he owght to provide / that those which are not off the church / thrust not in them seiues into such affairs / as (because they are none off the church) they have nothing to do with. Other wise in that pointe / the church should be in worse case under a Christian magistrate / then without him: Which were absurd. So your first question is answered / that the church off God is not ignorant / nor unable to judge off the soundness off Docrine.

To the second if which is of corruption off religion: I say / that if / the corruptiō be such / as destreiethe the foundations / as in the Arians (which overthrow the person off Christ) as in the Papists (which overthrow the office off Christ): they being no church / owght to have no privilege off the church. If the corruption touche not the heart / and bowels off Religion / but as a scabb / feadeth off the outward partes / to the deforming only off the body thereof / as the churches off the Jews in times past / which thought the ceremonial law off meats / and drinks / and days not taken away: and as some off the churches both Jews / and Gentiles / which thought it lawful to have many wives at once: thes and such life / because they take not away the title off the church / they cannot bar them from their interest they have in choice off there minister • / and if they choose such a one / as is no • fit: the magistrate is to hinder such elections / and to drive them to another. whereunto what yowe answer / shall be considered when I come to that place.

And where yow ask what if they agree not amongst them selves? Even the same that is donne in other elections: that the election be esteemed off the moste voices. And I beseech yow / what is here that may not be said off all other elections off offices in the comēon wealth / which pass by the voices off many? So that in going about / to drive the church from this election: yow infer a necessary change / off the whole state off the common wealth. And except the last off these questions / which is touching contention amongst the people (which is a great deal more tolerable / then when one bishop without resistance / sendeth forth such vermin amongst the people as we have to great experience off) there is never a one / but may fall into the election made by a bishop. For what if he be unlearned / as diverse Bishops be in Ireland? What if they be corrupt in religion / as some in England? What if a gift blind their eyes / that they can be content to wink / at the manifest faults off him which is to be admitted? What if they be overruled off some noble man / of whom they stand in fear / or from whom they look for some pleasure? Yow will say / all thes be beside the book: so are all these which yow reckon up / beside all laws of elections that ever were made / either civil / or ecclesiastical. And it is a very unequal / and (as of one that feareth the insufficiency of his cause) altogether a cowardly match / thus to compare the least disordered (for orderlie I cā never call them) elections / which the bishop maketh: with the least orderly / and moste troublesome elections off the people.

And if a man should judge / off the most fittest manner of chusinge off ministers / by the event: I am well assured / that all the Ecclesiastical stories extant / are not able to furnishe us / of so many unworthy ministers / chosen by all the churches throwgheowt the world / which have been since the Apostles times: as have swarmed thes few years / out of the palaces / as owt of the Troiane horse: off that small number off Bishops / which are in England. Of the other side / if a man will cast his eyes into France / both in persecution / and in peace / and from thence look into the churches of some partes of Sauoie / and yet stretch them ow • farther / to certain common wealths in Germany / and come home to our neiggbours the Scots: and compare generally the ministers chosen off the churches / withe the most parte off those which the bishops make: (if he love not him self to much / and be not a stubborn defender off that he hath undertaken) he shall be compelled to confess / as much difference between the one / and the other: as between gold / and coper / or any other refuse metal. And yet their is nothing / which the Ans. doth suppose may come to pass here / which may not happen to them all a part / and to the greatest parte off them / altogether. And therefore for anything yet alleged / the bishops election is further off then before / and the equity off the churches consent / in chusinge off Ecclesiastical officers / more apparent.

For the Westmerlande Minister: I do / not here appointe any certain parlicular rule / although I doubt not / there are many wates / which the churches upon the persente occasion / shall be able to take: but it is answered before in general / that what way soever the bishop may take / for his knowledge: the same may the church. Yow tell me often / that it is no matter what I think off this, or that: and I desire not / that any man should weighe what I say / further then it hath weight off the word off God. Which rule if it be kept / in the examination of yours also / as I doubt not it wilt we shall not need to fear any great pray yow shall carry away at this meetinge.

I have shown in part / and more also will appear / how the reformed churches agree withe us. And I am assured / that he cannot bring one example off any other church which professeth the gospel / where the elections off the ministers / depend upon the pleasure of one.

Where he saithe / none is admitted of the bishop / which hath not dwelt a convenient time in his dioses: The scolers of Cambridge go indifferently for orders (as they call them) either to Eli / or Bugden / or Peterborowghe / and sometime to London: and I am sure they can no have dwelt in all their dioses. Therefore either there is no such law / or it is evil kept. And what will yow do with the Archebishopp: may he not ordain in his province? so that if yow think the diocese so narrow a place / as all those that dwell in yt may take sufficient trial off him that is to be ordained: yet yow answer nothing for the largeness off the province. To whom is that singulier person borne owt off time / and in a dark corner of the bishops chapel before the rest / to whom (I say) is his ability so sufficiently known? if to the Bishop so owght all the rest: to others off the diocese / how can he? And where doth the book prescribe any such rule / that for some such singular person / there may be such a dark election? so that for anything that I know / it is still at the bishops pleasure. Sure I am there have been in that sort admitted / which for any singularity that gave them any commendation to the ministry / might have well been in the tail / with a number of the rest.

And the ende off notifyinge the day off orders (which yow say is especially / that there may be resort thither / of such as have any thing to object against any / that is at that time to be admitted into the ministry) is (as I think) but a shift / to serve this turn. the confutation whereof may be fetched / from the Bishopps bull / which being set up upon the church door / as by the sound of a trumpet to gather an army (whereof the greatest parte off of them / after the bishops hand is laid upon their heads / have power to invade the church of God at all occasions) propoundeth this as the chief ende / that if any be disposed to receive orders / he should repair to the bishop at such time / and place. For it maketh no mention as I remember / of any such ende / or at the least / that that is the principal ende. And if that be so (which I will not precisely affirm / but refer it to the reader / which may have more assured knowledge then I can have off it) then the untruth off this saying / doth notably appear. for if it had been the principal cause off the setting up thereof / it ought so to have been propounded: at the lease / not to have been left owt.

But whether it be / or no: it is manifest mockery of the people off God / and if it should be approved off the Bishops / which is here alleged: I cā not see / how they could deliver them selves / from that sore accusation / off making merchandise off the people off God / by coulorable and deceitful words. For to omit that the bishop / was w • nt to goo to every church which had a pastor or biship / to be ordained (as I am able to prove) and not all the churches to come unto him: and to let the inconvenience pass / how the churches throughout the whole diocese can be lodged / especially oftentimes in a little village / where the Bishopp giveth his orders: and to let pass that the bill which is set up upon the church door / is in the latin tongue / whereby they can make no preparation / not understanding the sound off the trumpet: I say / to let all thes pass: what should the churches do there / to have trial off the sufficiency off the ministers / which have already an incumbent? for the Bishops do as well give orders / when the places are full: as when they are not. And what should those which want do there? when they know not / whether they shall have one of that creation / or of some before: one made in that diocese / or in another.

And if so be they were (which they cannot be) sure that they should have one off them / there being peradventure four / or five which want: either they must inquire into the sufficiency off 40. 50. yea a hundredth sometimes (which is impossible): or else they may be deceived. For the Patron / and the bishop are not tied nether will be / unto these which they have made inquiry off: but will choose which they list of all that number / which hath passed through the bishops hands. And if there were no moo made / then they wanted: yet whē they have not been conversant in that parte off the diocese / where the void / and widow churches be: how can they stand up against those / which they neuersawe / nor heard of before? Therefore if there had been any truth meant by this pretence: the Bishop should first have have known / what they be which would enter the Ministry / and so give the churches which want / warning to inquire by such a day / of such / and such as be suitors / and woers unto them. So that by these / and many other considerations / which I leave to every ons estimation with him self: it appeareth / what reverence he hath of the church / which dare offer such a broken vizard / to hide from their knowledge / the disorder off the bishops election.

Where yowe say / that he must off necessity be admitted into the ministry, before they can give any judgment of his ability in teaching &c. In deed I hear yow speak sentences / and looked for some arguments for the confirmation off that / which condemneth the order off diverse churches / which for better trial off their ministers / give them some piece off scripture to interpret. They have been moved with some reason: and will yow cast yt away with a word. But the order of trying his gift off expounding / is good / and for the moste parte necessary. For although yt may be perceived by questioning shortly with him / what his understanding is in the mystery off Christ: yet his utterance / disposition / and memory (gifts necessary for a minister) cannot be tried / but by such a proof or by long acquaintance with him: which can be seldom between the ordeiners / and him that is to be ordained. And iff in well ordered cities / there is no man admitted to set up in any mystery / unless he have offered to the Masters off the company / some work for a masterpeece / and declaration that he hath skil / in that he will open his shop for: how much more in the ministry off God / owght it to be provided / that before he be allowed to work / in the great mystery off our salvation / and lay hand to the framyng of the silver vessels of the church off God: the masters off the company especially (which are the Elders off the church) being best able to judge / owght to have trial / how he handleth the golden hammer off the word off God.

But if M. D. which at other times loseth the cord off lawful vocation / will here to pinche me with all / girde it so straight: I answer / that neither he which is to be admitted / doth it without vocation / being thereunto called by those which have to do in the electiō: nether do they admit him / without warrant of the word of God. For the lord in comēaunding to take a sufficient trial of his abitilie / and that precisely before he be admitted: doth in that commandment include / all things that pertain thereto. For as when any peace off ground is given unto one / there is also a way to come unto it / granted withal / although the same be not mentioned: so the lord in giving to his church / power to try his ministers / cannot by any means bethowght / to have hedged up the way / which leadeth nearest unto that trial. And beside the reason heroff owt off the word off God / joined with the practice off diverse churches: We have plain examples in the scripture as I have shown in my former book. And how doth not the A. here condemn manifestly / the exercise of common place used in the universities / wherein young men (that they might he better prepared for the ministry) do interpret in there courses the scriptures / which have no admittance or ordination unto the ministry? I will let yow pass here / with this contrariety with your self / that yow grant to every minister the rule off his flock / which deni it so stoutlie in other places / where yow give it to the Bishops / and Archbishops. If yow had found such a one in me: yow would have made such hue and cry / sufficient to have raised a whole country. But I will not press your contrarieties / but where they be pregnant. And so I leave it to the judgment off the indifferent reader / how well the answerer hath maintained the wants off the book / which were by me in this behalffe assigned.

Their words are to be seen / my reply / and your answer: let the world judge what forehead there is in him / which saith / they condemn all as evil, and as unlearned: lest I spend moe words in prouinge / that it is light at noon days. There is more likelehoode / that for want of just trial / they might be thought to deny a lawful calling / to those which are admitted by the common order. But it followeth not thereof / that they say / there are none lawfully admitted / for the cause before alleged. And it is unreasonable / yow should charge them with that which I write / or with that the second admonition writeth. Touching the number off sufficient ministers in France / I wrote that which I received: wether it be true or no / it may easily be known of those / which will inquire off it.

Take yow good leave / to speak all good off the university: it shall be my recreation / after your importunate barkinges. yt is my daily prayer it may goo well with her / and although I be from her. yet I carried some of her boweles with me: so that whether there be in her / either just cause of joy / or sorrow: I have them in comēon with her. I can take no exceptiō unto your 450. university preachers / not having the register of the university. but yow did warely say / know̄ preachers, and not godly preachers: for some of those / have troubled the university / and other places with popish leaven of pargatorie / free will / and Abraham's besom cut owt by a larger measure / then ever our savior Christ taught. But to le • the corruption off some / and the inhabilitie off other some / with the so rare preaching off certain (that as at the appearinge off a comete / or blasinge starr / or some other notable change in the heavens: so at their preaching / there may be fear off some calamity to come) to let all those go / to help to make up this garlond off 450. yow owght not have forgotten to subducte / those which are taken away by death / those which are thrust owt off the ministry / and musled by the bishops / those which are mued in cloisters / those which beside the necessary use off the university / remain / there / and those which having charges in the country / lurk there. These being subducted / except the accounts do rise better then yow show: I fear me / that I may cut of from the number of 2000. hable ministers in the whole church of England / which I assigned before: as many as yow take from that number / which I reported to be in France. And alas what are these five loves / and 2. fishes to so many thousand churches. So that if yow had not done it at unawares / and had not had another ende / then is false owt: we should have had to thanke yow for this leuie of ministers / which the university hath bred / as that which strēgtheneth the fewnes off hable ministers / which I assigned.

M. D. hand is still on his halfepennie / and as Plautus Euclio / he suspecteth every man for his treasure: and by putting his hand so often to the sore / when he is not touched: he declareth plainly / what is the grief. The fear of spoil off the churches goods, is not without cause: But there was no cause to suspecte it in the Inns off court, which off their yearly exhibitions / given to maintain there studies / have erected up three divinity lectures: more for anything I know / then all the bishops have done. Therefore yow evil requite this liberality / with such suspicions. If the Centurion deserved praise / for building a Synagogue / and is commended by the holy Gost to all posterity / for his liberality in prouidinge a place for the preaching off the word: then they for there liberality / in prouidinge for the minister him self / deserved a better gratulation then this. If they had thrown in somewhat into the Corban / and botomlesse bag / it should have been counted to them for great liberality: But this aide which the church getteth by increase off godly / and hable Ministers / receiveth little thanck. But the hatred off this cause drave yow headlonge upon them: as your aduertismentes which follow do declare. As there are some among them that favor this cause: so there are some / that like not off it. And yet seeing they have joined together / yea (which is very strange) made great suit unto the Bishops / that they might of there own charges provide such / as in seruinge off them might discharge that / which the bishop hath charged him self with: your suspicion off spoilinge the church, might have had a fitter lighting place / then upon the Inns off court. Thus much against your disordered suspicion / not altogether from my purpose: for it shall serve to show / whereupon I conceived so good hope of them / and off other the gentrie off the realm / which have in diverse places made the same contribution. If any have forsaken the ministry without just cause / they are guilty off a horrible fault: but I see yow account them forsakers off the Ministry / which yow have thrust owt: such is your equity to whipp them owt / and for going owt also. And if they hold any off your tenths / and would be counseled by me / they should yield them into your hands: least in being partaker off your non residencie / they drink also off plages which belong thereto.

Wher yow say / I have not answered: in deed if your one mā be wise / and godly / and the hundred fools / and wicked: I have said nothing / nor mean not now to do / being worthier to be hissed owt / then to be answered. Yow say / that the 16. Acts▪ showeth how well Timothy was thought off: a noble interpretation. This is always your fashion / either to corrupt the places of the scripture: or else to tell that which no man dowbteth of. But for what cause doth S. Luke tell / that he was so well thought of? doth he not show in the next ver. to be the same which I have alleged? And therefore Master Beza regardinge the meaning of S. Luke / addeth the word (therefore) declaringe for what cause that testimonial was given. This is your reason / S. Luke showeth how well Timothy was thought off: therefore yt is untrue that S. Paul to cut of all occasion off evil speech, received him not, but upon commenmendation off the brethren both in Listra, and Iconium. I do not say that S. Paul would not have received him / unless that every singular person had givē testimony unto him / which was in those places. but I shown how circunspecte S. Paul was / in taking any into any part off the ministry: and how it is not to be thought / that he would have upon the Testimony off one / proceeded unto any election / seeing that in one which he him self was not ignorant what he was / to avoid the evil speech off some / he was careful to have the testimony off the church.

As it cā not be proved▪ that he would not have received him, if all had not consemed thereto: so may it easily be shown / that if the most part had not liked of him / he would not have taken him. For besides that it was against S. Paul's manner / to do anything off his own private authority in the church off God: it had not been advisedly done / to have procured the testimony off the church / for the admitting off him into his company / if the church not consentinge / he would have taken him, for that would have bred a great flame off displeasure / between the church / and S. Paul: and should have been always shot in the mouthe off the adversaries / against the authority of Timothes ministry / yea off Paul's also unto whom he was ioyined / for that he had received one / disaproued of the Christians them selves. All which he might (by your judgment) easily have avoided / iff either he would have rested in his own knowledge off him: or else have addressed him self to someone for his testimony / and not to have hazarded the alienatiō of the church / by comēittinge the allowāce of Tim. unto their testimonial.

But mine argument is nothing worth, because it is drawn off an act off the Apostle. If this be true / S. Luke was evil advised / to in title his book the act. or deeds of the apostles. For it is as much in the ans. language / as a book of deeds / which christiā mē are not bound to follow. and yet it was not without cause / that whē there are contained in that book / both the doctrine / and deeds of the Apost. S. Lu. as off the greater parte / intitled his book / the deeds or acts of the apostles. wherefor doth he in the begin̄ing of that book / repeating the sum̄e of his gospel / by that transition / or passage make one body of them both / and bind them as it were in one volume? was it not to give the same authority unto the one / a • to the other: to show that the church had wanted so much / of a perfect directiō / as it wanted of that story? Wherefore doth he in the begin̄inge / show that our Sau. Christ instructed thē / with the commandments thowchinge his kingdom? was it not to teache us / that whatsoever they did in buildīge of the church: they did it not of there own heads / but by his authority? And if a cōmanndemēt unto them / be not a commandment unto us: then have we no word in the Scripture / to warrant baptism with. For the commandment of baptisinge / was spoken to the Apostles only / without any further lymytation. Finally / wherefor doth S. Luke set owt the Apostles / filled with the holy Goste? Was yt only to give credyte unto there doctrine / that yt should be beliued: and not unto there Acts / that they should be followed? yes assuredly / unto there acres / that they should of everyone / according to his vocation (where they may) be followed.

For the further confirmation whereof / yt ys to be considered what S. Paul wrote unto Tymothe. Whom he instructynge / how he should behave him self / towards the troublers off the church: doth not only call him to the regard off his doctrine / but also his conduite / or manner off doing. Whereby he meant to note / his order / and manner off doing in the church off God / and publykly: for yt could be smally otherwise to the purpose / off that wherefor yt ys alleged. Sanct Paul's private doings / could give Tymothy little instruction how he should behave him self / towards the troublers off the Church. To the Philippians also he callethe the Bishops / Deacons / and whole church / both to doing off that which they heard / and which they had seen in him. If therefore S. Paul / will have the churches follow that which he did amongst them: yt ys manifest / that the Acts off the Apostles / are rules for us to follow. And unless this be admitted: I would gladly learn off M. D. Where in all the scripture he can prove / the imposition of hands which I think he will not deny to be necessary. And this is that / which M. Calvin doth flatly affirm / that the example off the Apostles in laying on of hands / upon him which ys to be ordained / coun terualleth a commandment / and owght to be followed. And if where I have said / the doings of the Apostles owght to be followed in the government of the churches / he ask how: I answer / that that they did in especial cases / then is to followed / when such cases fall: those which they did ordinarily / and generally / to be ordinarily / and generally followed. Those things which they did in founding off churches / and before they were established / to be in life manner used: those which they did / when the churches were established / to be in the same manner ordered.

And (to enter yet further into this matter) Where he saithe / that the argument is nothing worth, which is drawn of the fact of the Apostle: by the same reason he also condemneth / arguments brought of the facts of our Savior Christ / and much more / of all other holy men / and Prophets. Wherof the scripture is full / as when our Sau. Christ / proveth that it was lawful in some case to break the corporal rest of the Sabothe / by the example off David's eating of the show bread. As when he excused him self / that he did not work his miracles in Nazareth / where he was nourished up / rather then in Capernaum and other places: by the examples off Elias / and Elisha / by which he taught that a man may attempt nothing without a vocation. all these arguments if M. D. had had the answeringe of them: he would as it seemeth / have said unto our savior Christ / that they are nothing worth.

I grant / there be some acts of our Savior Christ / and other godly men in the scripture / which being commendable in them / would not be so in us: they having some either extraordinary spirit / or commandment which we have not. Off which sort / Idowbte not but Master Zwingli mente this sentence / which yow allege: As would have been easily seen / if yow had quoted the place. I think he hath been alleged / and quoted above forty times before / and never a sentence that maketh either hot / or could to the matters in controversy / or which might once provoke me to look whether they were so / or noo: this only place was somewhat material / and here it is not quoted. But to come again to those extraordinary facts: I say / that as the spoilinge off the Egyptians by the Israelites at the commandment off God / and the killinge of Cosby / and Zamry by Phinchas / through the inspiration off the spirit off God / cannot let us from teaching generally that theft is unlawful / that the Magistrate only owght to punish public malefactors: so those few Acts which doon of our Sau. Christ / the Apostles / and other godly men / are not to be followed off us / : cannot let us to teache generally / that there Godly deeds which lie in us to do / owght to be followed. And as I may reason notwithstanding those examples / that he is a thief / because he hath taken that which another hath labored for against his will / and he is a murderer / because he hath slain a malefactor / being no magistrate for that purpose: so I may say he doth well / for so our Sau. Christ did / so did the patriarches: and he doth evil / for our Savior Christ / the Apostles / the patriarches did otherwise in that case. And he that shall deny this argument / without showing some special / and manifest reason / Wherefore it was lawful for the one to do that / which was not for the other: he is unworthy to be a scholar in the divinity scooles much less Doctor. If therefore the Ans. would have by any Good order / put me from the possession of this place: he should have shown / that S. Paul of some special occasion / which falleth not into our ministry / used this circumspection in taking such a cloud off witnesses / for the assurance off Timothies good behavior: or that there is some general rule / and commandment to the contrary. But that as he hath not done: so he cannot do / there being no one step / of any such either particular cause / or general rule / either mentioned / or to be gathered of that place / or of any other scripture. It must therefore be esteemed that S. Paul did that / of a general equity / and common conuēience / which owght to be used in such grave / and weighty matters off the church.

Yea if M. D. Would have a little laid a side / his inordinate desire off maintaining that which he hath once written. he should have found / iuster cause of this circumspection in our elections / then in this. For if S. Paul an Apostle / endued with such a gift of discretion of spirits / would not take Timothy / which had been brought up from his cradell in the knowledge of the Scriptures / and had lived in all commendation from his infancy / Timothy I say / whom he had now known (as it may be very probably shown) of some reasonable time / into company of his ministe rye / without such diligent circumspection: how much less may a Bishop / in authority inferor unto him / in gift of discerninge spirits / not to be compared. receive into the ministry / upon the Testymonie off one only / a man whom he hath not known before / and whatsoever he be / in knowledge of the word of God far behind / Timothy? And yt is not to be let pass (for further answer to that which ys alleged owt of Zwingli / Of a deed, or an example to make a law) that yt hath been shown / to have been the practice of all the Apostles at other times / in there elections: and therefore this is not of one fact to make a rule / but off the continuull practice of the Apostles.

Moreover by defense of receiving at the testimony of one only / what doth he else / then make as easy an entrance into the highest place off the church off God: as a man off any calling / and wisdom joined with yt / would make into one of the least offices of his house? for surely if he have any regard unto the good order of his house / and consider that the misbehavior off his seruāte / whom he will put in any trust / reacheth unto the dishonor of him self / and his whole howshold: he will never admit him whom he knoweth not / without someone man's commendation / off whom he is well assured.

But the law of God in this behalf / is most clear: which to the deciding of a weighty matter in doubt / requireth two witnesses / and if it can be three: and namely where the judgment is of blood / yt expressly forbiddeth / that judgment should pass upon the Testimonye of one. But in the judgment of a minister / where the question is of a great number / of destruction of body / and soul / and that forever: shall it being dowbtfull / be givē vpō one mans testimony / how sufficient so ever he be? Especially / seeing that there owght to be greater trial / and more plentiful witness in the church matters / thē in civil causes. which may appear further / by that which S. Paul writeth unto Tymothie: Where he willeth / that he should not receive an accusaciō against an elder / but vpō two / or there witnesses. For wherein civil causes / even off blood / the judge may proceed unto the sentence off condemnation / upon two or three witnesses: S. Paul will not have Tymothie / not so much as to receive an accusation / against an elder / without so many. In civil causes a man may be driven to his purgation of blood / and to his answer / upon the accusation off one / although he cannot be so condemned / without his own confession / or other trial / that falleth owt after the accusation commenced: but the elder shall not be driven to answer upon one man's Testimony.

There remaineth to answer that / which is alleged off Paul's receiuynge into the company off the Apostles / by Testymonie of one. which if I should answer as M. D. doth / I would ask him how he proveth / that which he saith ys manifest: for yt ys not expressed there / that they received him upon Barnabas report. If I had said so / he would have charged me with arrogancy / th •• I dare set down that / which the holy ghost hath not revealed. For it is said he was received / but that he was owt off hand received, or at Barnabas report, it is not expressed. And if I would walk his way / I could answer / that it might be / that they first inquired off the truth off those things / which Barnabas testified / before they received him. But I leave this answer / to those which think there ys no light in the world / to discover such follies: and think / that S. Luke's meaning was / to show that he was received upon Barnabas witness.

For answer therefore I say: first / that he useth weight / and weight / measure and measure / which being abhominable before God / in biyng and selling such base things: yt ys seven fold more / in this holy traffyke off the glorious word off God. For when we give M. D. for proof off trial in the ministers election / that which was used in the Deacons / which ys like / and comprehended under one head: he layeth in so heavy a weight / whereby he would make us believe / that the prose ys to light / saying / that it is of the election of deacons, and maketh nothing for us. Now when he delivereth us a proof / that an election may pass by one witness / he putteth in a lighter weight / for he bringeth in an example off S. Paul / one not then to be chosen / but already chosen: Which came not to receive any authority / whereby he might be enhabled / to do that afterward which he could not do before: but to confer of that / which he had done before: Which came not to submit him self to any trial / but which had as good right to try / as to be tried / to enquyre / as to be enquyred upon. And that I take a • advantage off this / that it will be hard at any time to find a witness / so without all exception as Barnabas / which knew Saint Paul so well off whom he witnessed / and was known so well unto the Apostles / to whom he commended him: I think there i • no glew so strong / as can join thes together / A man which is dowbted off may be received to talk / and confer with another at testymonie of one: therefore he may be received to the ministry / of the like Testymonie. Again / three Apostles may receive one to there conference / upon one man's witness: therefore one biship / may receive one to teache others / upon a single witness. Last off all (which is most absurd) three Apostles may at the witness off one man / receive one that is dowbted off for a disciple / or one off the church: therefore one Bishop may likewise receive one dowbted of / to be a minister of the church. for it is clear by S. Luke which saith / that S. Paul first assayed to join him self unto the church: that their consultation was not / whether they should receive him as an Apostle: but they feared that he was a wolf / and went about under the color off professing the Religion of Christ / to betray the whole church off Jerusalem. So that if they had been persuaded off him / as off a Christian: they would have admitted him into the church / without the Testymonie of Barnabas.

Touching the place of the kings 1. 12. 3 • . The holy Goste doth there / lay to Ierobohams charge / both that he made them off the basest off the people / which was a great profanation of the Mynisterie: and that he toke them not owt off the tribe off Leuie / which was another fault. For if he had taken off the wisest / and honestest families of other tribes / he would not have said that he toke thē of the basest of the people. And therefore that place was fitly alleged in that sense which I set down: and yow that can see no other cause, why yt should be quoted, unless yt were to prove that the ministry should be tied to one degree, or calling: do yourself more injury / then a modest adversary would. For the light off the place is such / that it will suffer no man to be ignorant / which hath but halffe an eye to see. And yet yow blush not to require in your next section / another answer unto it. I could have repeated my answer as yow have there twice hard together / objected the same thing: but if I be not able to entertain my reader / with that variety which I would: yet would I be loath to deceive him / and make him believe / that mutton roasted / and roasted mutton be two several dishes. For let the reader judge / whether there be any other difference / between that which yow confess my answer unto / and that first section in the page following / whereunto yow require answer: and with those colewortes twice sodden / yow see I was content to let yow goo / as I have done withe a number off other your faults. To the rest I answer not.

What is the necessity off Iudicialls / I have declared. Touchinge the not entry off the incircumcised in heart, and flesh into the sanctuary of the lord, which the Ans. alledgeth to prove / that the law touching the reiectinge off Idolatrous priests, is abolished: change the sanctuary into church / which it be tokeneth / and incircumcision into the want off baptism / which was the same under the law / which this is under the gospel: and then it is the moral / and everlasting law off God / that none which is heathenish in mind / and withal professeth the same / by the not receiuinge off the holy Sacrament off baptism / should be admitted to the church off God. And if he say / that it is not perpetual / for that incircumcision of the flesh / is now no fault: he owght to understand / that the estate off the church in the gospel / is shadowed owt by those things / which were used under the law: As when it is said / there shall be an altar built up unto the lord in the midst off Egypt, that their shall be no Canamite in all the mountain off God. And therefore as the remouinge off altars owt off the church / which then were in use / and receiving in one off the nation off Canaan into the church / which was then unlawful / derogateth nothing from the stablenes of these laws: so the admittinge off one which is incircuncised in flesh / doth nothing diminishe the vnchaungeablenes off that law / which the Prophet there mentioneth. I am well content therefore that these two be matched / and that they die / and live together.

The other place / of entringe in clothed withe linen, compared withe this: hath no color off argument. For it doth not follow / that because the ceremonial law is abrogated / therefore the judicial is also. Are these your circumstances / that declare the meaning off the place? let it be admitted that bohte these laws / the one which goeth before / the other which followeth after / are abrogated: doth it follow therefore that this is also / of rejecting idolatrous priests From the ministry? That which is alleged by the admonition / is the 10. verse. of 44. chapter / and although one of the places alleged by yow / be the verse next going before / yet the second is the seventh verse / after the place of the admonition. Now if it be sound reason which yow allege / all those laws in the Testament which are so placed / that they have either a ceremonial / oriudiciall law next going before them / and another following within the compass off 7. verses: are either quite abrogated / or else not perpetual. Which if it be true: fare well Moses / fare well the Prophets / fare well the moral laws off God: they may all depart with the D. good leave / nay for that they will not serve him / he thrusteth them owt. Before he picked them here / and there: but this is an engine / to overthrow them all at once. For I appeal to all your knowledges / which have euerreade the law / if there be any one off the perpetual laws off God: which may not be found in some place off the law / and Prophets so placed as this is: and against the which this exceptiō which the D. doth so boldly auouche / may not be made. I could I am well assured / run through all the commandments / and by this reason hurl them everyone owt of the church / if yt were not folly to labor in confutinge of such phrēsies as these are: and the thing also were not so plain / as none of any reading in the old Testament / can be ignorāte. so that his pen̄e is a pēknife to cut a sonder all the scriptures.

Touchinge the interpretation off the words of the Apostle / that the ministers being tied, should execute their functions, as longe as they continue unblameable: I toke the sense which was fit for my cause / and neither against the scope off the Apostle / nor any grammar construction. Yow say the greek is / if in trial they be found blameless. Because yow tie me so fast unto the number of words / where have yow this translation? or in the Greek words yow allege / what have yow to bear thes words (in trial? or show me why I may not / as well resolve the participle into the coniunctine mode / by the conjunction (so longe as) as by the conjunction (if): as longe as I do it / neither against the truth / nor against the purpose off the Apostle. I grant that sense true / but why may not this also be joined: seeing both the words / and scope off the Apostle / will bear both? yow should therefore have shown / that these words will not bear this sense / and if yow show me that / yet can yow not put me from hold of that place. For as much as yt is most justly concluded / that if the ministers must be blameless / before they come to the ministry▪ they owght much more so to be / in the execution off it: considering that falls in execution off the ministry / are more dangerous to the church / then those before.

Althowgh trial be made before admission / and off things past: yet is it done in respect off the ministry that shall follow. Therefore yt agreeth well with the trial / That S. Paul should give warninge / that they should no longer be suffered to Minister: then they remain such / as by trial they were supposed to be. And where yow say / that it is spoken in that place off deacons: yt ys much more off Bishops. And if a Deacon fallinge away from the truth / owght to be put from the charge / or honor which he had in the church: much more a bishop. But I nothing doubt / but that the Apostle referred this sentence / unto both a bishop / and deacon. For having before spoken / off them both apart: he doth here join them together / in that which is comēon to them: ye • belonging rather to the bishop / then to the deacon. And it is as much as if the Apostle should say: I have set before thine eyes / what be the qualities / both off the biship / and deacon: look now none be permitted to come unto these offices / which have not been tried before. And that this is so / it may appear / for that the next verse / which is thouching the qualities off wives / is not only a description / what wives the deacons / but what wives also the Bishops / should have. Unless we will say / that S. Paul travailed in describing off the deacons wives / and left the bishops wives untouched: which how yt soundeth in other men's ears / I cannot tell / in mine it is absurd. Again if the 10. and 11. verses had been to be understanded off the Deacons trial / Paul and their wives only: S. Paul would not have begun his 12. verse as he did / by a repetion of the name off Deacons. For yt had been enough to have said / let them be the husbands of one wife: now when he saith (let the deacons, &c.) he declareth / that he had discontinued his proper treatise of deacons / which he resumeth again / by that manner off expressinge the name off a deacon.

The sense which I have alleged / soundeth no whit that way / that the virtue off the word, &c. should depend off the good life off the minister. What likelihood is there between these / a minister which hath fallen into idolatry, owght not to be received, although he repent, and be never so holy: and this / that yow surmise off me / that the virtue off the word, &c. dependeth upon the holiness off the minister? Was the spirit off God Anabaptistical / which ordained this first? did he therefore forbid the Levites approach unto the table off the Lord / because he would teache men / that the virtue off the Sacraments, depended off the holiness off the ministers? did the churches which used and established this order / the fathers which taught it / thereby establish Anabaptistry? I did not take upon me to translate the place / neither do I use for every place which I allege / to goo to the translations: I toke (as I said) that which was for my purpose / and which I thought warranted / both by the words / and intent of the Apostle. And if I should consulte / and confer all translations: could yow help me to a Greek text that doth translate the new Testament. Either yow be a great stranger in Grece: or yow have traueiled further into it / then any man that I have heard off. I have heard off a greek paraphrase / which is with some moo words to bring light to the text / as off the Scoliast: and off Metaphrase / which is to change the proof into meter / as Nonnus did S. John: but off a greek translation off the new Testament / I never heard. But this was not off evil will / and therefore I easily forgive yt yow.

The rules which S. Paul giveth in that chapter / are not only to teache that he that is endued withe those qualities there described / owght to be chosen to the Ministry: but also teache / that those which have them not / should not be admitted: and if if they be / should be deposed. And this yow might easily have learned by common reason / which saith / that there is the same knowledge off contraries.

S. Peters, and S. Paul's admissions unto the Apostleshipp, was to be handled in the next section / where I prevent these objections / and give no occasion to speak off them here: yet they are plucked in before the time / and barely affirmed / without any confutation off the reasons / which I allege. What confusion is this / and how loathsome repetitions are these?

I say that one that hath been an adulterer / should not be received into the ministry: I prove it / for that S. Paul will not admit one to the ministry / that hath had two wives at once. And that it owght to be extended / not only to the time off his choice / but also to the rest off his life: I prove by that which is said / of the choice of the widow / where S. Paul maketh this one condition / that she should be such a one / as hath had but one husband at once / and which had not been married unto another / after an insufficient divorce. For that that is the meaning off the Apostle (although Master Caluinfolowed another sense) is very plentifully / and substantiallie shown by M. Beza. Wherupon I concluded / if S. Paul would not admit her to the lowest office in the church / which at any time had two husbands: much less his meaning was / to admit to the cheiffest office in the church / one which at any time had had two wives at once. This the Answerer / as though he had never feene or hard off yt / passeth by: for what answereth he? Forsoothe that he dowbteth not. but the whoremonger if he repent, &c. may be admitted unto the ministry. And if I should have answered / I doubt not the contrary: What then? what answereth he further? that S. Paul's mind is not, to seclude him that had two wives, or hath been a whoremonger, &c. I have denied it / and have shown the reason off the contrary: he hath answered nothing. For where he afterward speaketh of the widow / which be denieth can be said, to have led all her life in good works: he answereth not to that / wherein the point off the reason liethe / which is / that she owght not to be admitted, which hath had more husbands at once▪ then one: if that be granted unto me: it is sufficient for the purpose / I alleged that place for.

Nether was it enough for yow to pass by my reason / but yow must most shamefullie move suspicion unto the reader / off my fauoring off the popish bigamy. What likelihood is there between whoredom / or having two wives at once: with having two wines one after the death off another / or marrying a widow / which the Papists call bigamy? if yow have no fear of God before your eyes: ys there no reverence off men?

The first off your reasons / to prove that a known adulterer may be received into the ministry: is that S. Paul by forbidding to receive unto the ministry, one which had been a whoremonger, or which had two wives at once should deal otherwise withe them, then he was dealt withe all him self. I gave the reason off this in the section following / that our Sau. Christ (having the law in his own hand / and making no law to him self / but for us) might do that which is not lawful for the church to do: which reason being neither answered here / nor else where / owght to have stayed yow frō this answer. I gave this weapō / but I turned the edge of it / and made it flat: yt was not therefore to war withe all / unless yow had set a new edge.

This solution / that it is not lawful for the church, nor for all the churches in there elections, to do that which was lawful for our Savior Christ: if it do not plainly enough appear / in the examples off these two Apostles / it may be seen in the election off them all. For it is not lawful for any Apostle / or for all the Apostles / or for all the churches joined together / to appointe any to the ministry / which is not fit for the ministry / at the time when he is chosen unto yt: But our Savior Christ chose / and appointed eleven Apostles / to preach through owt the whole world / when as they had but one only tongue / off the country where they were borne / the charge whereunto they were appointed / requiring the knowledge off many tongues. And in this example off S. Paul's calling unto the ministry / yt is clear / that our Sau. Christ dealt otherwise / then S. Paul deaiethe withe other. For he was called to the Apostleshipp / as sone as ever he was called to the church? which he forbiddethe by express words / when he warneth / that he be no new plant, that is to say / latelie come to the knowledge off the truth / which is to be taken to the ministry. So that yow see S. Paul dealethe otherwise withe other ministers, then he was dealt withal himself.

The next reason is / that we read off none deposed from their ministry in the new testament, although they were found in many things guilty. is it not lawful for us / to reason against the unlawfulness off a thing / for that yt is not in none off both the testaments / neither directly / not indirectlie / neither expressedly / nor conteinedly: and shall yow conclude negatively / upon the examples only off the New Testament? The New Testament maketh mention off notable Harlots / and those also which were off the church / and yet yt maketh no mention that either they received any civil / or ecclesiastical correction: therefore (by your reason) notable Harlots / are not to be punished / either with civil / or ecclesiastical correction.

But Christ knew Judas to be a traitor, and yet he did not depose him: so he knew him to be a traitor / when he chose him. Therefore if this be a good reason / that a traitor to God and the gospel should not be deposed: it hath the same force to prove / that a traitor may be chosen to the ministry. Moreover / Judas was admitted to the lords supper / therefore if this reason will serve to prove / that a traitor should not be deposed: yt is good to prove / that he may be also received to the lords table. Judas treason was as yet hidden / there were no witnesses off it / and therefore by no law off God / either civil / or ecclesiastical / could be proceaded against. For the law off God in all ecclesiastical / and civil punishments / requireth either confession by the party / off the fault which is committed / or else proof by witness.

He proceedeth saying that the Scribes, and Pharisees criminous &c. are commanded to be hard in the chair, &c. Good lord be merciful unto us / whether will this man goo? will he have traitors unto Christ / sworn / open / and professed enemies unto the gospel / to have charge in the church off God / and not to be deposed? for whether can these examples tend else? our Savior Christ commanded the people that they should be heard / in that they said trewly owt off the law / and that their faults should not hinder thē / to embrace that which they taught well. What is that to our question? this doth aptely prove / that the virtue off the word / doth not depend upon the worthiness off the minister: and thetherto it is referred. But to prove that they owght not have been deposed from their ministry / there is not a word. But why did our Savior Christ not depose them? And why did he will there doctrine agreeable to the law to be received? He deposed them not for that as he was the Minister off circumcision / he could not: having not to do that ways / but withe those that would submit themselves to his doctrine. And if he should have given sentence off there deposition / they would not have obeyed yt: and he had not the sword to compel them. This therefore remained for him to do / that when neither the people could shake off their yoke / nor he displace them: that as he had often given warning / off their false doctrine: so he should will them to take heed / that neither the hatred off there evil life / nor off their false doctrine drive them to mislike off that / which was well taught. And iff this be a good reason to prove / that those that be criminouse should not be deposed / because our Savior Christ willed the people to hear, &c: Then spiritual thieves / and murderers / corrupters off the law / teachers off justification by works / owght not to be put owt off the ministry. For those off whom our Savior Christ spake these things / were such.

And as for the wicked preachers in the church off Philippos: first yow are greatly abused. For although he write unto the Philpiane / yet these preachers he there speaketh off / were in the church of Rome / and not in the church of Philip. And thē / if I should ask yow how yow know / that he did not will their ministry to be taken from them your own mouth condemneth yow. For by your rule it is presumption / to speak any thing that the holy ghost hath not expressed. And it is not only not expressed / but it cannot be gathered. For if yow think / that therefore he willed them not to be deposed / because he was gladd / that Christ was preached by them: yow deceive yourself. For he saith if he were offered up and should die for confirmatiō of his ministry: yet he would rejoice in it, and requireth the whole church to rejoice withe him for yt. Would not therefore S. Paul have escaped the Tirātes hand / if he might lawfully? or owght not the church of Philippos / to have forbid̄ the puttinge to death off the Apostle / if they could have done yt? So that yow see / a man may rejoice at the fruit off an action / that another doeth: which if it lay in him to let / he owght not suffer to be done. For when as of evil doing / may come good / as we owght to be sorry at the evil which is done: so it is lawful for us to rejoice of the good / which hath followed that evil. And this distinction off reioycinge / S. Paul doth include in these words in this, which he setteth down to be / in that Christ is preached. As if he would say / yt greueth me that the word is preached by such men / but yet I am glad that yt is preached.

And although it be hard to know / how they sought to add to S. Paul's bands / yet if be true that the greek Scoliast writeth / that they did it to this ende / that the persecutors seeing the number off the professors of Christ / might (being more inflamed against S. Paul / as one which had sown the first seed) the rather hasten his death: who seeth not that it had been the churches parte at Rome / to have to the uttermost off their power / endeavored to have stopped the mouth off those preachers? therefore I am well assured / that if the godly off the church which was at Rome / could have restrained those preachers: they would not have suffered them / to have abused the gospel to his straiter imprisonment / much less to the taking away off his life. And therefore that they were not restrained / proveth nothing that they owght not by any means / so to have been: but rather argueth the fewnes of the church / which favored sincerity off the gospel / that S. Paul preached / which fewnes also appeareth in another place.

The next reason is very strange / that everyone which is a member off the invisible church, should be a minister off the visible. For by this means / may be taken not only the most vnhablest in the church: but those also / which are not yet called to the church. But your meaning is / if he be off the church / and other things correspondent. yet one off those conditions is nowhere expressed / and the other is almost thirty lines before in another sectiō / and in another case: so that it is dangerously spoken / and may give very great occasion off offense. And I leave it to the consideratiō of the te • der / how often yow have quarreled / where there is nothing the like occasion / as yow give by this losenes.

I will also let goo / your improper / and unwonted speech / whereby yow make one / and the same / at one / and the same time / a member off the visible / and invisible church. For seeing the invisible church upon earth / is off those only / which either are not called / or lie hid / and ungathered unto any know̄ fellowship where the word of God is preached / and the sacraments administered: he which by repentance joineth him self to the visible church off God / cannot be said to be a member off the invisible church. For as when the triumphant church is opposed unto the militante / one man / at one time / cannot be said to be a member off both: so here where yow oppose the visible / and invisible church / it cannot be that he that is said / to be a member off the one / should be also a member off the other. But for answer I say / that if there were here any comparison at all / yet it halteth down right: although we owght charytably to think / that he that hath given good tokens off repentance / hath trewlie repented / and therefore is of the elect church of God: yet that foundation always remaineth / that when the question is of an others man's election / God knoweth who are his. So that yow can draw no argument from his election / which is uncertain unto us: to conclude a certain election / unto the ministry.

Again why do yow say / he that is a member off the invisible, may be a minister in the visible? as though the invisible church / were off some higher nature / then the visible: or as though the true members off the visible church / did not make one mystical body off Christ with the invisible.

Therefore when all cometh to all / the reason is nothing else / but he is a member off the church / ergo he is fit to be a minister off the church / which is very absurd. For by this means all good order off discipline is troubled / in house / and in common wealth. The master which hath been deceived off his servant / which he moste put in trust (as for example in the office off stewardship) if he give good tokens off repentance / must off necessity restore him to his place. For will he seclude him from his stewardship / whom Christ doth receive into his kingdom? and shall not we think him / to be a meet officer in his masters house / albeit he have committed adultery with his mistress: which is a member off the elect church off Christ? And this reason standing / common wealths must goo upside down. for besides that all those laws are condemned / which debar men from certain freedoms / and honors / which have been stained with especial vices: as he that is once convinced off perjury / from bearing witness at any time / &c. there may none either traitor / or murderer / be put to death / if he be repentante. For his pardon is caselie pleaded by the Answ. rule / that if he be meet to dwell in heaven / he is meet to remain upon earth / and if the lord give him everlasting life / should we deny unto him this trāssitorie life? And not that only / but if he had had an office before / it is meet he should be restored to it again. If this be an absurd / and anabaptisticall kind off reasoninge / in the discipline off the house / and government off the common wealth: how is it not the same / in the discipline of the church?

And iff yow stick so hard to the example off God: it is not hard to show / how that the lord remitting the fault unto his children upon their repentance / hath notwithstanding kept them in sharp discipline for their faults / all the days off their life / both in there own persons / and sometimes in there childrens / and in all that belonged unto them. so that if yow will needs tie the church / to the example off gods mercy / and forgiuence: that doth not only not hinder these chastismentes / and church discipline: but also extendeth it further / then the church / or the common wealth may do.

The holy ghost by Jethro / prescribinge what officers should be chosen / doth not only require / that they should fear God (which is to say / be of good religiō) be wise / and valiāt: but also requireth that they be trusty, which (as appeareth by other places off the Scripture / where this here commanded / was put in execution) signifieth such as were faithful / and trusty to the commonwealth / and which had of their former life / given good arguments off there fastnes that way. Therefore if in choice to the great / and weighty charges off the common wealth it is not enough that they be of good Religion / able also for their wisdom / and courage off mind to execute: unless they have been found faithful in that estate / wherein they have lived before: how much more owght that to be observed / in committing the greatest charge / that is under the son / which is the Ministry off the word? And if in common wealths / men will committee no great trust unto him / which hath deceived the trust / which was put upon him: how much more owght that to be observed in the church? Whereas the loss / and danger is greater: so owght the trust to be slower / and the parties to whom it should be committed / more unsuspected. And yet for further confirmation he must understand / that for as much as our Savior Christ / and S. Paul require / that a minister off the word off God should be faithful in his office: as those to whom the choice belongeth / owght to have regard to his former sobriety / continency in life / and other virtues / to induce them selves to a good persuasiō off him / touching those virtues: so owght they upon his former life / to gather such arguments of his faithfulness / and trust: as thereby they may be able to meintaine a strong / and mighty presumption off the faithfulness which is to come. which thing when they cannot do in one / whose untrustiness is fresh before their eyes: they cannot have sufficient testimony / to persuade their conscience / that he is of that trust / to whō they may comēit the church of God. For if they look upon repentance which he professeth: it cometh always to mind / that countenance / the eyes do lie oftentimes / and mouth oftenest off all. And albeit upon good / and likely tokens / the church owght to think it a true repentance: yet it cannot be so sure thereof / as it is off the unfaithfulness. So that in weighing the repentance / which is uncertain / with the counterpoise of his unfaithfulness / that is certain: it will be hard to conceive that strength of opinion / off his •• faithfulness / whereupon they may adventure / to put him again in trust with the church. At the leste / if there be one fit for the Ministry / which never was stained with that fault: all men must needs grant / that he is meeter / to satisfy the consciences off the choosers / then the other: which the Ans. denieth.

And as before I have shown / that the example of our Sau. Christ / in putting. S. Paul / and S. Peter into the ministry / is not to be followed off us: So upon the matter I have here alleged / it may easily appear why. That is to say / for as much as he knew the heart off man / and saw their cogitations longe before they were conceived: he needed not any time to try / how they would behave them selves in their ministry / nor any either Testimonies / or arguments of former life / to help his persuasion off their fitness thereunto. Therefore he knowing / both by the fullness off the spirit off discretion / given him without measure / and by his divine knowledge / how faithfully they would employe themselves in that mynistrye: might well open the door unto those / against whom the church ought to keep yt shut.

If any man would here except against this answer / with the example of Judas / which did so traitorously behave him self in his office: yt ys not worth the answer. For who knoweth not / that that was done / that the Scripture might be fulfilled: and that for that cause our Savior Christ / forseinge the treason to come / did notwithstanding give him a place in that ministry? So that if they would conclude any thing off that example: they must conclude / that the church may choose one / which yt thinketh will deceive the trust / that ys laid upon him. I could here dispute / whether although he repented trewlie / yet forsomuch as he is subject to another such fall / as well as any other: yt were booth less danger for him / and les hurt for the church / to receive such an overthrow under another capitayne never foiled / then under him / under whō yt hath already been put to flighte. But forsomuch as yt is not so clear / and requireth a longer discourse: I am content to let that pass.

Yet that may not be omitted / that as in the refusal off a minister / which hath defiled him self withe Idolatry / provision is made for the safety / and security of the church: so an eye ys had to a more plentiful fruit / which may redounde unto it / by him that is placed in the ministry. And forasmuch as no small portion off that / should be by great likelihood turned a way / by restoring such one / as hath fallen so grievously: amongst other reasons that also hath force / to hinder his restirucion. For when S. Paul requireth authority in a deacon / purchased by continual tenor / and as yt weere by an even thread / of a holy / and innocente life / that he might withe greater liberty / and boldness execute his office: he sufficiently declarethe / that such a fall / especially in the bishop / and minister / taken in the race off his ministry / maketh a deep wound into that authority / and freedom off rebukinge others / which is necessary for him / for furtherance off hy mynistry / to retain. And as yt taketh away from his freedom in reprehending: so that which he reprehendethe / hath so much less aucthoritye withe the hearer: as yt is not only not confyrmed / but contradicted by his example. And if Tymothe / being endued with such rare gifts off knowledge / and holiness off lyffe / had much a do to maintain his authority in the church / against the contempt of his yowthe / which was no fault: he had need have very extraordinary gifts / which can deliver his ministry from contempt / ten fold more occasioned by such a fall / then by want / of a few years. Seinge therefore the wound being healed by repentance / the skarr doth yet remain in the eyes of the church / to the blemishinge of his Mynistrie: yt ys good he be taken down / and set in some les lightesome place / off the church off God.

There was yet a third reason / which no doubt moved the churches to keep this order: that this bar off him from the ministry / which had so fallen / might serve for example unto other ministers / to take heed. For they considered well / that as common wealths / so the churches of God / are preserved by reward / and punishment: and that as in the reward off some / other are provoked to make after those things / which are by that reward crowned: so by the punishment off some / other are terrified from doing that / for which they see them dishonored. Therefore they thought yt unmeet / that he which had faulted in the qualytie off a minister / should no other wise be disciplined / then a private person: but rather as his fault exceded / so his correction should increase. Which thing being so much commended / in common wealths well governed: I see no cause / why yt should not be as conueniente in the church off God: so far / and in such kind off corrections / as are in the churches power. And therefore yt appeareth / that the commandment which is given in Ezethiell / and in the book off the kings / for the separatinge off the Leuytes from their Ministry / which had fallen to Idolatry: was not a law for a time / but drawn from the springe off that equytie / which cannot be changed.

And so far is yt / that the gospel hath made this law void: that yt hath also confyrmed yt. for if the ministry off the law / were so glorious / that yt would not be handled off those / which had once fallen from yt by Idolatry / although they did repent: howe much more / ought the mynystrie off the gospel (which so surmounteth the ministry off the law / as the gospel doth the law) be untouched off such / as forsaking yt / have defiled them selves with that sin? And if for a less fault / they were kept from a lower place in the church: for a greater fault / should not they much more be kept from a higher dignity? for whereas now the seconde time he faith / that under the law, there were certain corporal pollutions, which made a man unclean for a time: yt proceadethe of too great ignorance off the Scripture / either in not knowing / in what short time those polutions might be purged: or else assigning any cause off the Leuytes putting forth off their ministry forever / for the polutions which were in so few days cleansed.

Yowr allegatiōn out off master Calvin touching the widows / is nothing for yow / nothing to the cause. For what if he say / that the Apostle requireth that they should be benyficiall: doth yt therefore follow / that respect should not be had into their whole life. Yt may be easily vnsterstāded / that the apostel having drawn the office off a widow / through diverse sortes of good works / because yt had been to longe / to recyte all: shutteth up with that clause / as if he should say / that I stand not in rehearsal off all / I will have her such / as hath exercised her self in every good work.

But I desire the reader to observe the unfaithfulness / and open corruption that he useth / in cyting off master Calu. For his judgment being not called for / but answer required to the words of S. Paul / he hath taken that which serveth not to the purpose / and hath left out that in the exposition of the same verse / which is directly against that he alledgeth master Calvin for. Whose words are these / There is no doubt, b • t there were worshipful, and very reverent colleges, or companies off widows: therefore Paul will have none chosen thither, but such as be commended by a notable testimony, off their whole former life.

And whereas he asketh / howe could that be, when they had but one parte off their life known Christ: not to speak off the Jewish widows / which might have led their whole life in good / and holy works in deed: he must learn / that S. Paul doth not there speak only off good works / which are the fruictes of faith: but callethe those good works / which are cyuilly / and in owtewarde show / and estimation off men good. So that he requireth / that those only be chosen emongest the women / which were never detected off any notable crime: but have always lived in an honest / civil behavior amongst their neighbors. And thus S. Luke calleth those women religious, and honest, which were moved to persequte S. Paul. There was nether true Religion / nor honesty in them / but so he calleth them / because they were so esteemed. S. Paul also saithe off him self / when he was the enemy off Christ / that he was before his conversion / as touching the justice of the law, unblameable: Which must needs be understanded / off a civil / and outward kind off justice / and not off any good works / which were true fruictes off the spirit off God. Hereoff he requireth / that he that is to be chosen bishop / should have the Testymonie off strangers from the church: that is to say / which lived with owt breach off that civil honesty / which the very heathen have in recommendation. Which Testimonye he could never have if he were known / to be either a drunckard / or an adulterer / &c. the knowledge off which crimes / God hath written / so deeply in the heart off man / that no ignorance off God / or sauagenes off life / could ever rase yt out. So yow see S. Paul / might require a Testimony of good behavior off the whole life of those / which had led put a parte of yt in Christianity.

Who goeth about to excuse S. Peters denial? doth he that saithe yt is a great and a heinous crime, excuse it: I said / I thought I should trouble yow, if I put yow to prove his fault to be as great as his that slydeth frō the gospel, to Idolatry, and therein abide the some years: And I perceive I have troubled yow / for yow cannot answer unto that poor reason / which I in passing interlaced. To help to maintain your untruth / yow have here set S. Peters fault of the last / saying / he did yt wittingly, and willingly. For yt being done off infyrmitie / and to save his life / although yt is was not done without his will: yet I report me to the use off our speech / whether this wittinge, and willing doing be not spoken of those only / which do yt without any manner off compulsion / or drifte off fear.

But therein yow do him open injury / when yow say / that his fault was as greauous as any bind of idolatry. For I beseech yow is not the denial off the gospel / as great a fault / as the denial of Christ? so far therefore the faults are equal. In denying twice / he is matched withe a great number off Idolaters / which at one clapp have renounced him withe mouthe / and subscribed against him with their hand, and where he forswear him once / they have forsworn him oft / according to the number off dioceses / where they have had their lyuinges / and diuersytie off times wherein such things have been required. That warning S. Peter had a little before / by the mouthe off our Savior Christ, they had by the voice off the minister / which hath the authority off Christ. That he did almost in the presence off his master, yt seemeth by that which hath followed in some / they would have done / if he had stood / and looked on.

But let that increase his fault / yet this circumstance maketh yt not so great / that where Peter denied Christ cast down / or in time off his humility: they have denied him risen from the dead / ascended up into heaven / fytting on the righte hand • off God the father in glory. I leave to be considered / whether hitherto the fault off Sainte Peter / be not only matched / but also ouerweighed. Now for a surcrease / and ouerrunninge measure / S. Peter did yt to save his skin / they to save their honor: He for his life / they for their living. I speak fauorablie / for otherwise I might say of some / that they did it not only to save that which they had / but to get more unto yt. S. Peter did it pe ••••• lie / and in a corner: they in set / and open judgment. He only denied that he knew him / or that he was one off his disciples / but spake no evil off him / nor of his doctrine: they affirmed that they knew the gospel to be nawghte / and so spake evil both of Christ and yt. He did yt suddenly / and at a pushe: they deliberately / and withe time given to consulte: he although he forsook his master Christ / yet he never served the scribes / and Pharisees / which were the enemies off Christ: they did not only forsake Christ / but served in the courts off his sworn enemy Antechriste.

Now if their faults were in the very kind / so many ways greater then his: it must needs follow / that the longer they spun the thread off their sin / then he did off his: so much more growethe unto theirs / then unto his: and therefore what difference between hours / and years: so much between theirs / and his. I leave to speak how S. Peter / was wakened at the voice of a • ocke / which they were not at many voices off the son of god: he was checked at a look off our Savior Christ: they not at his frown / and chidinge voice.

I have spoken this / neither to excuse Saint Peter / whom I know to have sinned heinouslie / nor to throw down the seat off mercy agayinste those / which have thus sinned / which standeth sure upon the brazen pillars off the promises off God / to all which do repent: but to this ende / that I might show / howe untrue it is / that is here so avouched off the Ans. that S. Peters fault was more grievous, then any kind off idolatry. and that such as have so sinned / understanding their sin to be of a longer last / thē S. Peters / might not deceive them selves in the measure.

Yt maketh nothing to the purpose that is here alleged / of the vnchaungablenes of the mercy of god: or that out off S. Paul to Timothy. As if the question were / whether they which had fallen from the ministry of the gospel to Idolatry / should be received to mercy: or that the mercy off God were denied unto him / to whom the ministry is denied: or as if mercy / and correction could not stand to gether: or as if the Levites received not mercy / both of God / and off the church / which received not their ministry: or as though Cyprian / and other fathers / which shut the door of the ministry against such / were not enemies unto those that denied repentance unto the fallen / when Cyprian callethe Nonatus (author off that error) the murderer off repentance. I marvel therefore what he meaneth / thus to goo about to abuse his reader / in seeminge to say something / when he saith nothing.

In the ende he saithe / that these examples off our Savior Christ, are not to be followed in all points. In what points to be followed? and in what to be avoided? this was necessary to have been shown. And have yow forgotten / what yow asked off me: how I knew certain things to be followed, and other not? and howe either all must be followed, or none? and what revelation I had received to know what things in the election off Matthias pertained to ours, and what not? howe pernicious a voice it is / / both to the church / and common wealth / that no man what crime soever he hath committed, is to be secluded from any lawful vocation if he repent: howe licentious / howe nere approaching to Anabaptism / if I had said nothing at all / yet hath it plentiful confutation / both off reason / and off all good policed churches / or common wealths that ever were. I have shown general commandments to the contrary: therefore unless yow can show them repealed / by a contrary act: they are still in force. For the examples off S. Peter and S. Paul / here tediously repeated: I have answerrd before at lardge.

Towching the wiping a way off Ambrose example, I did it first in place: which your gloss denieth. For proving that no new convert / should be chosen to the ministry / allthowgh our Savior Christ did choose S. Paul / Ambrose example stood in the way: and therefore I gave him in deed the wipe / but it was with the sword off God. His choice was also / against the allowed practice off the church / if yow know whose voice this is: yester day cathechised, today a bishop. Where he merueilethe / that so plain a precept off S. Paul is not kept / and callethe them sudden, and momentary minsters, which are so made. And albeit that some deferred their baptism, longe after their conversion, and in deed to the time off death: yet yow do not show / that Ambrose was in that ••• ber. If he were / yow fasten thereby greater ignorance upon him / then I have done: who (yow say) speak contemptuously off him. Besydes it is one thing not to be baptized, and another thing to be catechumenus. For those which were not baptized / being sufficiently instructed / were admitted to the supper off the lord: but in that yt is said / Ambrose was Cathecumenus, is declared / that he was not yet sufficiently instructed / in the principles of religion. Whatsoever yt is / I say yt could not be without great disorder / that a man should be chosen governor off the city / which had never tasted off the water thereof. I know Ambrose was a notable man / and learned in human knowledge: yet I might without either great disgrace / or any contempt / say that which I said. And if this were the place for it: I could easily show upon howe good grownde I said / that it had been safer for the church, he had been better instructed in the scriptures, before he occupied the place off Doctor. Whereunto I could use his own testimony / which saithe / that he was constrained to teache / that which he himself had not learned.

Albeit he is constrained / to agree to that which is affirmed: yet for the great desire he hath / to strike at me / he would wreste this epistle out of my hands / then the which there can be nothing more plain. For Cyprian / reasonethe against Fortunatius challenge off his bishoppricke / after that he had fallen to Idolatry: by the general rule / that none ought to be admitted unto the ministry / which had so fallen. And therefore almost in the beginning off the Epistle / he chargeth him that he dare challenge unto him the ministry, which he hath betrayed: as though yt were lawful after having been at the alter off the devil, to come unto the alter of god. And after he had shown the horrible punishments / that the lord God willed they should be punished with / that faulted that ways: he addeth / Seeing therefore the lord threateneth such torments, and punishments in the day off his wrath, to such as obey the devil, and sacrifice to idols: howe can he think, that he may do the office off the minister off God, which hath obeyed, and served the pry stes off the devil? or howe doth he think, that his hand can be translated to the sacrifice, and prayer off the lord: which was captive to sacrilege, and to such a crime? Off thes words and diverse other in that epistle / yt is euidēte / that he doth not therefore seclude Fortunat. only / because he did not repent: but because yt was not lawful / for those that had sacrificed / &c. to be restored unto their ministry. And therefore he purge the him self / and his fellows in another place / off that he was supposed to have received Trophimus to the ministry / and otherwise then a lay man: although yt be there declared / that Trophimus did submit him self in all humility / unto the church.

Wherefore hath he brought in here / that there was certain time off repentance appointed in Cyprians time, &c. doth any body deny yt? or maketh yt any thing to his purpose? That which he he should have proved / he to wchethe not. For against that he said / Off the examples off the primative church, in restoringe off those unto their ministry, which had fallen unto Idolatry: I have shown the use off the moste ancientest times / and he bringeth nothing at all / but only affirmeth those things / which no man deniethe / and make nothing to the purpose.

The council off Carthage (which ordained that none might be received again to the ministry / which had defiled him self with Idolatry) is here rejected: the reason whereof is also added / for that the same Concell decreed, rebaptizing off those which were baptized by Heretics: The Ans. may throw away the authority off a council / because of an error in yt / without either scripture / Doctor / or council: when I do yt / not without either all thes authorities / or at the leste / off the scripture: yt is cried out against / as an unlearned shift, and I cannot tell what. But I am contented yow shall throw a way the council off Carthage / which established that error: yet yow shall not throw away that / wherein it was agreed / against restoring off ministers / fallen into Idolatry. How so? Because they were decreed in several councils. For proof thereof / I allege the words off Cyprian.

Of this place I conclude / that forsomuch as the Council of Carthage / was provincial / as that which was gathered off the bishops off Afric / Mauritania / and Numidia / and this general / as that which was assembled of all the bishops of the world: that the council wherein this was determined / is not the same which determined rebaptization. Again at this council Cornelius was / and gave his consent: at the other he was not / neither would ever give his cōsent. And so also is answered / that which yow cite out of the seconde book off Cyprian / and first epistle / that for so much as / the council that there is spoken off / was in Stephanus time / the bishop off Rome: it can be by no means understanded off this council / that decreed against the restitution of the ministers which had fallen / which was holden before his time. Therefore the council there spoken of / was but a conference of bishops / or minsters which were nere unto that place / where Cyprian remained. For if it had been any solemn council / Cypr. would not first have holden that / and then after they had decreed off matters in consultation (as yt appeareth in that epistle they had) conferred withe him by letters. And if he should: yet yt doth manifestly appear / by that which I have alleged / that this was decreed long before. I will therefore wait / what advise yow will take / to answer to this Council: which was both catholic / and general / and more ancient then that off Nice: puttinge yow also in remembrance / what a great extoller off councils yow be / when they make any thing for yow.

None of the places which they alleged / declare anysuche meaning: and the place quoted out off Eze. manifestly declareth / that they mente of those which had fallen from the truth. Besides that all men may see / that yow brought thes examples of M. Luth. &c. to prove that ministers which had fallen into Idolatry / might be restored unto the ministry. And where they speak off king Henries priests / king Edward's / &c. Yt is apparente / that they mente not to seclude them / for that they were king Henries priests: but because they were king Henries / and Queen Mary's priests both / seeing they also shut forth / king Edward's priests / which by no means they can be suspected to have done / unless they had mente off those / which being ministers then / were priests also in Queen Mary's times. If They had said thus simply / all indifferent judgment must needs so have expounded them: but when they expound them selves so plainly / in these words / men for all seasons: I might well say / as I have said / what hath so blyn̄ded your eyes, &c.

For his judgment off certain preachers now, massmongers in Queen Mary's times, comparable with any in the lande: I leave to speak of it. For seeing he hath a several divinity from others / he must be suffered also to frame his judgment thereafter. The sclanderous untruths / that are here uttered / I will not defile my pen withe. Off the places off Deuter. and Ezekiel I have spoken. Howe the judicial law / is in the pour off the magistrate / is declared / and here was no place to speak off it. Forasmuche as the question is here / off the discipline off the church / and not off civil punishments: and whether the church ought to admit a minister / that hath fallen unto Idolatry. The next section / I leave to the judgment off the reader. The next unto that / is answered before in the first tract. and 6. chap.

Yt was a great parte off Alexanders commendation / that he was fierce in fight / and gentle in victory. The D. is clean contrary. For a lam is not so meek / and so tame as he is in his disputation / and reasoning: but in his triumphs / although false / and imagined / there is nothing more fierce. To bear out all this storm off words / profane Philosopher, and druncken poete, &c. There is not so much as one Philosopher / profane / or divine / one Poete / sober / or druncken / to improve that the gentiles, did never take oxen, serpentes, fire, water, &c, to be god: or, that they toke the Images before which they fell, for wood, stone, &c. If I should allege all the places out off them / which might be brought to the confirmation off that / which I set down: yt were much more easier to find a beginning / then an ende. Howbeit / because off the shameful / and foreheadles deali • ge off the D. off an infinite number / I will allege one / or two: Whereby it may appear / what opinion was off these things / amongst the gentiles.

And to begin withe Philosophers / it cannot be unknown to those which are learned / that amongst others / Plato / and his sect / approached neereste / to the true knowledge off god. And albeit he cōfessethe in diverse places one God / by whom the world was ruled / yea and maketh mention / off the father / and off the son / which he calleth the moste divine word / and hath many other things / consonante unto that which Moses writethe / in such sort / that he was called off some / Moses speaking in the moste pureste manner off the Grecians: Albeit I say / this Philosopher did well know / that there was but one God which made heaven / and earth: yet he taught / that diverse spirits / and men also which had been famous upon earth / should be worshipped.

For the Poetes / the saying of Virgil / all are full off Jupiter: may declare / that the honor / and service which the Gentills did to the Images / bestes / and other creatures which they worshipped / was for an opinion that they had / off the presence off Jupiter in • hose things / and not for the things them selves. and there wanted not diverse amongst them / which said / there was but one God / which they called Jupiter / and that Appollo / Venus / Diana / &c. Were but virtues / or partes of Jupiter / so that in those they worshipped Jupiter. And although the Egyptians / were comparable in grossnes off Idolatry / withe any nation: Yet Isocrates thus writeth off their manner off worship.

Here yow hear the Philosophers / the Poctes / the Orators (which were the Prophets off the gentiles): yet none ascribethe unto thē such a dotage / as to think a piece off wood / &c. to be God.

And iff this knowledge were in the grosseste Idolaters: howe can such ignorance have been in the Israelites / as he imaginethe? But I had forgotten the boy off the grammar scoole, whom he appointethe for my scoolemaister in this matter: whereas if ever he toke heed unto the first verse off Cato / he must needs give witness of our side / that the gentiles toke God for a spirit / and not for a piece off wood / &c.

And this that is here spoken / off sondrie off the Idolatrous Gentiles / S. Paul pronouncethe off them all / where he going about to prove / that all the nations were shut under condemnation: saithe / that they knew God by his creatures, but did not glorify him as God. This opininion the Gentile had of one God / Justin martyr prouethe / by that whensoever they entered into any earneste consideration off God / they were wont to name one God only. And that they imagined their Godds to be in heaven / besides that yt is easy to gather off their gestures / in holdinge up their hands / and casting up their eyes unto heaven / as often as they felt thē selves in any danger: may likewise appear / where the Idolaters of Listra / and Derbe conceiving off Barnabas / and Paul as off God's: to maintain that error off theirs / are driven to say / that they were cum down from heaven: declaringe thereby / that the received opinion off them was: that the ordinary God's / were in heavē. For yt is not to be dowted / but they had the images of Jupiter / and Mercury which they worshipped in that place: and yet they did not take them for their God's / but Imagined that the God's whereof those were the Images / were in heaven.

Now this that every drunken poete, and boy, &c. can tell to be otherwise, let us see whether grave / learned / sober / and anciēte divines / do not plainly confirm. Augustine (which is here alleged / to prove that the gentiles did take the very images them selves to be their gods) showeth that the very vulgare / and grossest sort of Idolaters / could answer when they were rebuked of their Idolatry / and heathenishe worship: that they worshipped not the visible image, but that which dwelt invisibly in it. and that they off the finer sort answered / that they neither worshipped the image, nor any spirit in the image, but by that bodelie image did behold the sign off that thing, which they owght to worship. M. Calvin (answeringe unto the Papists objection / that their images are not takē for gods) saith thus. Nether were the Jews (saith he) so unwise, that they did not remember that it was God, by whose hand they were brought out off Egypt, before theye made the calf: yea unto Aaron sainge, that those were their gods which brought them out of Egypt, they did without staggeringe consent, gyuinge thereby to understand assuredly, that they would keep still the same God for their deliverer, so that they might see him goo before them in the calf. Nether is it to be thought that the Gentiles were so blockishe, that they did not understand that God was some other thing, then wood, or stone. For they changed their images oftentimes, and yet kept the same gods still in there mind: and their were many Images set up to one God, neither did they therefore according to that multitude, imagine many God's. Besydes that daily they consecrated new Images. and yet they thought not therefore that they made new God's. And towards the ende off that sectiō he writethe thus: Notwithstandinge booth the Jews were Perswaded, that under such Images they worshipped the eternal god, the one, true lord off heaven and earth: and the Gentiles also that by them they worshipped their gods although false, yet which they imagined to have their abode in heaven. And in the beginning off the tenth section: Those which deny, that this was done in times paste, and is doon in our age, lie impudentlie. And towards the latter ende off that section / unto the Papists objecting that they do not call the images their godds / he answerethe: Neither did either the Jews, or Gentiles so in times paste, and yet the Prophets in every place did not cease to caste in their teathe fornicatiō with wood, and stone: only for the things, which are daily done of those, which will be counted Christians, that is to say, for that they worshipped God carnally in wood, and stone. Now take away that which yow have partly in your gloss / and partly in your text / moste untruly surmised: and show me one word in all this section / which yow have made such horrible owtecries off / that Master Calvin doth not speak more fully / then I.

For where in your gloss / upon my words / And who knoweth not that they thought that by them, and in them, they worshipped the God which made heaven, and earth, yow note in the mergente a gross error, making me to affirm that all the Gentills believed, that God made heaven, and earth: yow change not your skin / still yow seek advantage by falsehood. For tell me are thes all one / they thought they worshipped God, which made heaven, and earth, and they / they thought that God made heaven and earth? When it is said / that the Papists think they swallow Christ / which only sittethe at the righte hand off God: doth one affirm / that the Papists think / that Christ sittethe only at the righte hand off God? For when there are two propositions there: Wheroff the one is / that the Gentills thought they worshipped God / the other / that that God made heaven / and earth: the Answ. would make them as one. But what a veration off spirit is it / to have to do withe one / which either knoweth not what the valewe off a proposition is: or else knowing / doth so shamfully wrest yt?

Yet the other which he ascribethe unto me in his text / is yet farther from honest dealing. For he askethe me / whether iupiter, Apollo &c. were gods which created heaven, and earth: as if I had given any occasion of that question. He addethe / and asketh / whether they were thought to have made heaven, and earth? To whom I have answered before / that the words import no such thing: neither had I either in that proposition / or in any before / made mention off Jupiter / or Appollo / &c. And if I should answer / that Jupiter was thought off some / abused by fables of the Poetes / to have made heaven / and earth: What would follow thereof? I say therefore again / that take away your untrue additions: and there is nothing set down off me / which Master Calvin doth not precisely affirm. And that which I have set down out off Master Calvin / I could recite as fully / and as plainly out off Master Musculus / which I omite.

For your places which yow have heaped together here / I know them well / and had thē before me when I wrote. Yow give me them in gross / without applyinge: yow either could frame no argument of them / or feared the answer. I cannot examine all those chapit. which yow give me / unless I would write a whole book off that matter only. Yow take up the Adm. because they apply not their scriptures / and frame not their arguments: yet they let not yow wander in the whole chapiter / but gave one verse to speak unto. I must also admonish yow to bear more reverence unto the scripture, then to confound yt with Baruche, and especially with the story off Bell, and the Dracon: if yow will not be admonished / I will desire the reader to take heed off such confusion: there being as much difference between the one and the other / as between heaven and earth / God and man.

Why? is this the proof yow promise in your gloss / whereby yow said / yt should appear to be untrue that I alleged? Those great words made me hope after some strong reasons / if we will follow him here / he will lead us the ready way to the popish transubstantiation. For he stickethe in the very word / and will admit no sacramental speech / and therefore where the ark is called the lord off hosts, the king off glory: in his divinity / yt must needs be taken so in deed / that the ark made off wood is very God. For in the words off the text it is expressly signified. And even as that is / so is this a sacramental speech: whereby they having the golden calf for a token / and sign of the presence of god / called yt by the name off God. now having no reason but off the papists only / to warante this opinion: off his accustomed lyberalitie / in giving that which he cannot hold / he admitteth for soothe that yt is metonimically spoken yet after that by force off the truth / yt is writhen from him: he reachethe out his hand after yt / saying / that yt is but a conjecture. yt is a certain truth M. W. and no conjecture: standing not upon the judgment off men / which I could allege of diverse learned / that have writ̄ of that place: but upon vnfailible reasons / whereof that is one which I have alleged / off the usual phrase off the scripture / in speaking of signs. And iff it had been lawful for them / to have likened the majesty off God unto a calf / or to have had such a token off the presence off God: it had not been unlawful / to have called yt Sacramentally / by the name off God.

Moreover forasmuch as the knowledge off God / is a habyte which god gyuethe by little and little / through teaching / yt is impossible / that the Israelites so well instructed / and having given also good experience before / that they knew the true God: should so suddenly / at one instant / so many / leese all that knowledge off God / and take a calf to be that / which brought them out off the lande of Egypt: but as yt cam by litell and little / so it must of necessity have a time / whereby it might by little / and little be lost. And hitherto is referred that which Master Calvin alledgeth / off the consent off the people to that / which Aaron said off kepinge holy day unto the lord: whereby they declared that they held that for good / which Aaron said.

Further if the Israelites had taken the calf for their God: Moses in giving them yt to drink after he had betē it to powder / should have driven them to a great sin / and have killed their consciences / in compellinge them to drink that / which they were persuaded to be a piece of the true God / which brought them out of Egypt. Which thing when no man of any knowledge can say: yt is certain that Moses did think / that the Israelites did know that the calf was not the true God. Beside that albeit Aaron faulted grievously / yet it is great injury done unto him / to think that ever he would have either cawsed / or consented / a calf to be made: if he thought that the Israelites would have taken that / for the true God. yea after they had uttered that voice / Thes are they God's, &c: Yt is said that Aaron seeing that / made an altar before the calf: Which he would never have done / if he had understanded the Israelites as the D. doth.

I had not the text before me / when I wrote / but I took the sense which I was well assured off. Seinge they both consented to Aaron saying / ye shall keep holy day to the Lord, and did so. Therefore allthowghe it be subject to the reprehension off a caviller: yet I altered nothing off the meaning off the place / in that I set down / that the Israelites said, they would keep holy day to the Lord.

I put yow over to the learned writers, and now I have toulde yow off two / which do in plain words / whet their stiles directly against your distinction. Yow mislike off the distinction, but yow are drivē to use yt: yow excuse not the papists, but yow lessen their crime / and therefore yow may well be called their Patron. For yt is a precept amongst the Rethoricians / that iff the clients fault be apparent: the advocate should confess it / and then employe the strenghte off his wit / to cause it seme as little as may be. And where in the distinctiō of degrees off Idolatry / yow say / that the Jews did oftentimes offend in the last, and the worst, and the Papists not yow in deed say it / and say it again / but yow bring nothing to prove yt once. I could reply / that the Papists used more detestable Idolatry / then ever did the Jews. For show me by any good authority / or reason / that the Jews did ever think / or teache / that a dead Image off wood / and stone should be worshipped with the honor off the holy trinity: and this notwithstanding is tawghte off the Papists. Or show me where ever the Jews did worship / so vile a thing / as a piece off bread: which received into the stomach / is after caste into the privy. And as yt cannot be denied / but they take that bread for the very God / which made heaven / and earth: So I am persuaded that yt can never be shown / that the Jews were ever so gross to believe / that any simple creature seen with their eyes / was the living God.

The Ans. bindethe well in the ende / withe his therefore if they repent, &c. Wherefore? because their Idolatry is not so great as that off the Jews? as if their mercy / which they receive upon repentance / depended upon the smalnes / or greatness off their Idolatry: or as if the Jews / which repented off their Idolatry / received not mercy likewise. Verily I can see no bande / to tiethis therefore. with that which went before. yt is a weffe / not worth the taking up. For what needed this now thrice at the leste / that they are not to be rejected out off the church? as iff any denied that. but where yow add / nor out off the ministry: if yow mean off such / as have fallen from the gospel / and ministry especially / to Idolatry: I cannot bear yow / it is to heavy a cōclusiō for so weak premisses: for Master D. is to much abused / if he think that the same kaie / openeth the door off the Ministry / and the church door.

Where he snatcheth at the example of Aaron / who after that he fell / was received into the priesthood again / which he did before in the example off S. Paul that I brought forth: he declareth what a hongrie cause he hath / which is gladd to pull the meat out off the fire / that yt fedethe on. But alas this helpethe not: for it is a singular example / and may not be drawn into imitation. At which answer my think I see the D. buskell / and prepare him self to crowe / saying / that so all may be wiped whatsoever is brought. I will not do therefore as yow / to whom yt is enough to say without proof: but will show the reason / which unless yow rest in / yowe shall have the controversy withe your self. your self affirm that the law in Ezech. and in the book of the kings, touching the not admittinge of the Levites to the ministry, is a judicial law of Moses, and givē to the Israelites only: which if yt be true / yt being general / must needs comprehend the fault off Aaron. And therefore yt followeth / that the admittance off Aaron to his ministry again / being directly contrary to the law / was by an especial dispensation.

Moreover / Aaron being appointed to the ministry immediately / and by the express mouthe off God: I see not what man could put him out off yt without the same authority which put him in. Last off all / it is very probable / that where yt is said in another place / that Moses stood up / and prayed for Aaron: then Moses received answer / what should be done withe Aaron / touching his continuance in the ministry. Where your gloss in the ende supposeth contrariety, seeing yt settethe down none. I have not to answer. yt may be the A. lawghed when he wrote that / whereby he requireth sincere dealing in the scriptures. For if this be sitting in his mouthe / which corrupteth in a manner all he toucheth: why should not also a light housewiffe / talk of the chastity off a grave matron. The next diuis. belonging unto the 6. Tract. off unpreaching ministers / shall there God willing be answered.

Off election off Ministers / vn voices / or other consent off the people

Chap. 4. pag. 155.

IF Chrysostom had had any thing to say touching the election off Deacons: he should have spokē when time was / and when that place was handled. Yet for answer / the reader may understand / that Chrysost. in that place maketh comparison / between the election in the first off the Acts / and this: and showeth howe the Apostles did otherwise there / then here. For there they chose two / which they set up before the church. So that when Chrysost. saithe / the Apostles might have chosen the deacons: yt may be he meaneth they might have chosen them / as they did the two / Mathias / and Barsabas: In which choice I have shown / the consent off the people was required. If there were but this place / which the D. citeth / I would stand upon this answer: but considering that Chrys. in another place / affirmeth that Peter might have chosen him self (which I would not keep from the knowledge off the reader) I will not deny but that Chrysost. might have here the meaning the D. supposeth. Wherto as I can by no means agree / upon the reasons both before / and after alleged so the D. is not helped. For when Chryso. commendeth Peter that he did all things by the advise off the church, nothing off his own authority, nothing with dominion: When he addeth also that the same was to avoid contention, and that nether he nor the rest off the Apostles should be thought to choose off favor: he declareth sufficiently that there is no bishop of that ether authority / or holiness off life / which in making the election without consent of the church / doth not both lay him self / and his ministry open to suspiciō of parcialitle: and give occasion off pernicious debates in the church.

He should also understand / that this proportion is uneven / and that if yt were granted which he desyrethe: yet he is not where he would be. For iff it were lawful / for the Apostles endued with extraordinary gifts off discretion off spirits / to choose: yt followeth not therefore that one Bishopp may do so. And because yt was lawful for the 12. Apostles / to choose them withe whom they were daily conuersante: therefore it is lawful for one bishop to choose those / which he never see / nor knew before?

Before I goo any further / yt is to be observed / that although the Ans. hold out in the defense off this cause / off election by the Bishope / certain words of learned mē / racked from their meaning / and contrary to the continual practice off the authors: yet the truth is / that as this assertion is the Papists / and Papists against the Protestants: so all his principal both arguments / and solutions have been word for word / ministered unto him out off the books / off the ranckeste enemies off the truth. If the reader will see this question diducted at large / between the catholics / and the papists: let him read Hosius / and Phigius / in thes books which I have noted. I will only note the places whence the Ans. arguments are fetched / with his startinge holes wherewith he would abuse the world. And first off all Marsilius a Catholic / whom the lord had stirred up to maintain the truth off the Gospel / Aboute the time off Pope John the 12. disputinge against the sole election off the bishop: vsethe this reason which we have here in hand / namely / that forasmuch as the church chose here Deacons / as it appeareth in the Acts: therefore yt ought much more choose her ministers. This reason Phigius (as the D) derideth: no more hable to answer yt then he.

The manifest words off the text are / that Paul / and Barnabas ordained elders by voces / neither is there any learned, and godly man brought / or as I am persuaded can be brought / that ever denied that the churches were in election off their ministers / joined with Paul / and Barn. That Zuingl. saithe / some were called to the ministry off the word, by the Apostles only: what is yt to prove / that Paul / and Barnabas did here in this place ordain myinisters / without the voices off the church? yt is well therefore M Zwingli. hath expressed / which the D. hath unfaithfully holden back: who translatinge whole pages to no purpose / could not here aforde us one poor sentence / off the length off two lines. The other half off the sentence is this: As (saithe he) when by the decree off the Apostles, Peter and John were sent unto Samaria.

Marcke I beseech yow / what manner of election this was. The Apostles chose two / but such as were approved ministers before: what is this to prove / that the byshope may choose those / which were never approved / or chosen unto the ministry? The Apostles chose them to go an embassage / which should be ended in a few days: and what is that to prove / that a bishop may choose to a perpetual function? The Apostles did yt without the consent off that church / unto which that matter did not belong: what is that to prove / that the bishop may choose a minister / without the consent off that church / which that election doth concern? for that electiō belonged not / unto the church of Jerusalem where they were: if yt had there is no doubt but the Apostles would not have doon yt / without the cōsent thereof.

I leave here to speak of the difference of bishop / and Apostle / off twelve / and one: which being observed in the former section / needeth no rehearsal. And as this maketh nothing for the election off the bishop: so yt maketh against that / for the which this place is brought. For iff master Zwingli. had been off that judgment / that Paul / and Barnabas did by them selves choose / without the church: he would likely have brought that example / cōsideringe that this cannot be properly called any election to the Mynistrie / which was off those which were ministers before.

But that yow may yet better know the D. unfaithful dealing / joined with shameless boldness off alleging authoritice: I will set down Master Zwinglius judgment in this cause / which he uttereth in diverse places off that book / out off which the D. hath alleged this: but most manifestly / within les then a dowsen lines of the place / from whence he rente this. Hauinge inveighed against the Popish election / both for that in yt one bishop hath all the pour / and for the unworthiness off those which were chosen: he addethe / yt semethe therefore, that there ys nothing so agreeable to the ordinance off god, and to the old institution, as that all the whole church off the faithful amongst a people, together withe certain learned, and godly bishops, ad other faithful mē having skill in things, should choose a pastor. and a little after / Let therefore thes proud bishops, and foolish Abbats goo shake their ears, for yt is conueniente that the righte off the election, should be in the pour off the church off the faithful, instructed by the counsels off learned men. for as that matter ought not to be in the pour of one: so ought not the rude, and unlearned multitude, challenge unto yt self alone, so great weight off the election, &c.