A Second Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift Part 1
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The source of this document is the Early English Books Online (EEBO-TCP) website. Those books were transcribed in a character for character manner and can be very cumbersome to read since there was no standard spelling during that time. Many spelling variations such as "unlesse", "vnlesse", and "vnles" regularly appear.
This project was conceived to clean up those books as much as possible and make them more accessible to the interested reader, leading to the creation of a massive list of variant spellings and their corrections. This was used to clean up the text, but is of course only as complete as the list itself. Because of the nature of the original transcription, some words have missing characters or places where the original language (e.g., Greek) was not transcribed. This effort does not change that. Be aware that the original transcription can also be faulty and in some cases entire sentences may be missing.
Although this is no substitute for a properly compared, proofed, and scholarly edition, I believe that the result is a document which is far more accessible, particularly for searching for terms using standard spelling. The document has been cleaned and presented in what I hope is a pleasing and useful format for the vast majority of Christian brothers and sisters who just want access to read these spiritually nourishing works.
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This project took a huge amount of time and skill to bring to fruition. I would particularly like to thank David Jonescue for the initial list of Puritans he found on EEBO and the concept behind this project as well as the continuous, unceasing efforts toward seeing this complete. Without his labor, this would not be available. Alex Sarrouf was invaluable in providing the initial list of over 7,000 spelling variations he had identified and corrected, as well as continuing to review more than 16,000 additions to that list for any typos.
Logan West
(with David Jonescue and Alex Sarrouf)
www.puritansearch.org
The second reply of Thomas Cartwright: agannst Master Doctor Whitgiftees second answer / touching the Church Discipline.
Isaiah. 62. verse. 1.
For Syons sake, I will not hold my tongue, and for Jerusalem's sake, I will not rest: until the righteousness thereof break forth as the light, and the salvation thereof be as a burning lamp.
Ibid. verse. 6. & 7.
Ye that are the Lord's remembrancers, keep not silence, and give him no rest: until he repair, and set up Jerusalem the praise off world.
Imprinted. M. D. LXXV.
To the Church off England / and all that Love the truth in yt: Thomas Cartwright Wisheth mercy / and peace / from God our Father / and from our Lord Jesus Christ.
THe Church off God so often us scripture not compared only / but figured in the City Jerusalem: serveth for instruction / in this cause. For as in yt / the wall first broken down / was last made up again / and that more then 14. years after the temple built so is yt commonly in the spiritual wall off the church / which is the discipline the lord appointed / as well for strength of yt / as for holding out of all adversary power / whether yt be corruption off doctrine or manners. The first is to be seen / in the Act. of the apostles: where (after the churches gathered by preaching) there was an eldership severally placed in them) to whom the execution of the church discipline doth especially appertain. The other may as easily appear / to him that considereth the estate off the church after the Apostles / by monuments off those times: in which always as this fort off government left by them was first suffered to decaie / so the pureness of doctrine decreased: until the church yt self (except a few stones here and there scattered) was brought to heaps off dust. If y • be asked / why the discipline having right to entre with the doctrine: findeth not always / that favor amongst men. The cause • s apparent / that when Satan cannot gain this first point to hold the doctrine owt off a city or Kingdom: he sweareth after the second / that yt may be there with smallest fruit / and shortest continuance. Wherein let (I beseech yow) be considered: his doings / against the building off the wall off Jerusalem. For if he bestirred himself so / in hindering that material wall: it will be les marvel / if for hindrance off this spiritual he trudge to and fro / open his whole pack off subtleties / and as yt is in proverb bestow both • vet and dry.
And first touching the persons he useth / in his fight against both: they are not much unlike. For in steed off a bastard kind off Israelites / Apostates from God and his true service (which were there the foreine enemies): we have now the Papists / who (as shall appear) he set in the forward of this battle / against the discipline now propounded. And as now we have within the church / which covered with the name off the gospel and off the teachers thereof / give a more dangerous assault then the Papists: So were there then even off the Jews them selves under governors and Prophets / which secretly and openly opposed them selves. As for the practices / they are so like in both: that all which will open their eyes / may easily espy the same workman. For as the enemies then placed their chief strength / in accusations against the church / that if it were suffered to lay the foundaciōs of the wall it would move seditiō, and rebel against the Kinge: even so our adversary / to arm the Prince against this cause / soundeth nothing more then rebellion / sedition / and such like. If this were not able to discrie / or (at least) to give warning off this unfaithful dealing: yet this may. That these are the very weapons off the papists / which not able amongst us with so great succes to be used by them selves as those which are known enemies: have been ministered to the D. that being thrown out off his hand in whose mouthe is the gospel / they might be thought to have been made for defense / which were forged for overthrow of yt. For where Brenz teacheth / that the ministers owght not to bear dominion over the churches like princes: Hosius accuseth him / that by the same mean / he went about to displace Caesar. And upon like occasion / that we would overthrow all kingdoms and superiority: that men might do) wat they list. That if the Almans, had once shaken off the Pope: they would shake off, Caesar sone after. If these be compared with diverse off the D. accusations / and namely with that page 455. lin. 1. yt will be meruail that (unless he were in this point taught by the same spirit Hosius was) he could iump so even / not only with the like accusation / but almost with the same words. But this shall better appear / in discourse off this boke where ys shown not only that he hath the like / but the very self same cause with the grossest Papists. I say the grossest / for that in some pointes / as off the churches election and pastoral residence / there are found off them more favorable to the truth then he: which joining with Catholic writers both old / and of our time / have written against the estate off the Popish church in that behalf.
And that no man's simplicity be abused by an outward profession off the gospel / as though yt were unlike that they which professed yt should be enemies to the true discipline: or incredible that the same which cry out off the Tyranny off Antichrist / should refuse the moderate and wholesome government of Christ: yt may please them to understand that this cause hath before this bydden the assault not off the Papists alone / but even off them which make show off so deadly war with papistry: that the greatest force of their resistance / hath been a fear ether pretended / or vainly fancied / least the giving place to the discipline should draw after yt the popish Tyranny. Capito a man off singular learning and godliness / affirmeth that it was objected unto them which went about to restore the discipline. that they would be Tyrans over the church which was free, and cal back again a nwe popedom. M. Bucer: Satā goeth about, that by restoring of the discipline, the faithful Ministers should be thought to seek ambitously the same Tyranny, which Antichrist did. M. Beza when the Eldership and excōmunicatiō were to be instituted: there wanted not which cried owt, that the popish tyranny was by that means called back again: also that the magistrates office, was thereby in parte invaded. Now if these slanders be compared with the Answerers: all may understand / that although / the instrments used against the discipline vary in time and country / yet the autor (misleading some by simplicity / and thrusting other headlong through covetousness or ambition) ys the same in our country / which was then in Germany / France / or Sanoy. For that the discipline now propounded / is the same which suffered this contradiction off certain professors off the Gospel / shall manifestly appear in this discourse: and may be partly understood both by Cap •••• letters / written to comfort a ministre off Geneva then Wrestling for yt / as by Beza's words which particularly note one or two partes thereof. Nether can disagreemēt of the favorers thereof / in interpretation of some place / signification of some word / alteration off some circumstance (if any be) hinder this: no more then diverse pictures off one face / having all the same great and principal drawghts / can hinder us from acknowledging the same visage in them all: albeit one be more coningly drawn then other / have more lively and orient couloures then other / have one small line more or les then other. Unless peradventure / men will be so unadvised / to deny the doctrine off the Gospel to be the same professed at Geneva / at Zurich / at Witemberg: because the professors / had in some smaller points their several Judgments.
Another principal kind off artillery / wherewith the D. leueleth at this wall off church discipline: is • haccusation / off Anabaptistry. This also (as may appear) is taken from the Papists. For when the persequuting off the church in France (where together with the doctrine this discipline was established) was misliked off the Almanes: the French to appease them said / there were none so cruelly handled, but Anabaptists and troublesome fellows, which would overthrow not religion only, but the whole order off the commē wealth. And although the D. hath in this behalf travailed mightily / and gathered (as yt were) a heap off stones to throw at us: yet for fear off being conuincted off so manifest untruths he dare not throw one / but privily and as yt were under hand: saying / he will not accuse any, he will not condemn any. that is: he will (forsothe) not flea us himself / but hold our legs / while other flea us. But he shall never so escape / the iudgemement off God. For if he were guilty / which kept their garments that cast the stones: how much more shall he / that put stones in their hands. although / if we were such: we owght so to be noted / that others might take heed / off such detestable heretics. All which false surmises with diverse others of Donatism Papism puratanism. We might with one sentence off the holy man Job / have refuted. For so are they not only untrue / but for the moste parte without all color of truth: that taking our adversaries boke off accusations upon our shoulders, and applying them unto our heads (that all might read and see them) we might as off a crown, or robe have received commendation by them. Howbeit / because there was some danger least the D. lofty titles / and glittering estate might ether seduce some simple ones / or utterly carry away those whose minds were forestalled with some prejudice against the cause we maintain: I thought good once at large / and piece by piece / to lay forth the unworthiness of his accusations. Now I see / there is no end of his dishonest charges: I mean not by further answer in poursuit off his old / or avoiding his nwe / ether weary myself or the reader. For seeing the untruth off them / is in the eyes and ears off all: why should I travail to stop his Throat / which (as an open sepulcher off untrue sumises) will as (seemeth) never with any reasonable answer be filled up.
And that yow may have a taste off his equity: note (I beseech yow) his answers unto our defense. This is well said, if unfeigned: These glorious words are but mists, to blind the eyes off the simple: The Anabaptists would say the like. Verily if they say so they shall deteste them selves / with all their wicked phantasies: and give as sound a Confession of the truth / as the Doctor can make any. But let us imagine him self accused off all these pointes / which he surmiseth of us: I would gladly know / what he would answer. Let him conceive his purgation as effectually / and in as good words as he can / make all the protestations he can / offer himself to what examination he can: how easy ys yt for his adversary with the same equity he useth towards us / to dashe all. This is well said, but it is feigned: there was never heretic, which to hide bis poison, pretended not some color off truth, &c. And by the grace off God / we are as far / yea further also (as shall appear) from all pointes off Anabaptism / then he. But (saith he) let the like effects proceeding of like causes, and in like manner: judge the likelihood between the Anabaptists, and them. Truly if he prove the causes like / the controversy is at an •• de. And if the search off the truth had been his mark: here he would have begun / where the trial is certain / and not off the effects. Which allthowgh they be falsely surmised: yet some are such / as may ensue (albeit after another sort) as well the preaching off the truth / as the publishing off falsehood.
And surely if the Anabaptists / when they rose in Germany / had met with such confuters: yt is very like / that they (now put to flight) would have occupied the greatest part off it. But the godly ministers / assured of a good cause / provoked to most solemn disputations: where all seeing their vanities / might learn to deteste them / and them selves (made to understand their folies) might be stricken with shame / which might bring repentance. This they did by example off the Godly learned in times past / and off Augustine namely: Who provoketh the Donatists and Manichies to Disputation / in the hearing off all his church. This cause therefore if yt should not prevail / by force off truth yt must gain / through the indirecte means / and cowardly fight off the Answerer: so far from procuring this trial / that he accuseth me as desirous of popular praise: because refusing his private confe • rence (as he some where hath affirmed) I only put him in mind / of a disputation. Wherto also pertaineth / that he counteth yt Anabaptistical: that this ys propounded in places where the gospel hath been already planted. As if there were a fitter place / to propound the Discipline: then where the doctrine / hath allredie been received. where should the wall be fitlier made: then where the city / is before built. Where / the diche caste: but where the Orcheyarde / is already planted. If yt had been preached / where was ignorance / or small knowledge of the gospel the would have taken great advantage. for that they might so have abused the blindness of their hears to cause them believe that which those that have their eyes open could not be brought unto. Now they preach in places / where the gospel was planted: he will make that also serve for a step / for his accusation to clime up by. So that howsoever we behave our selves / what commodity off circumstance soever we have: the D. hath such an engine / that he cannot only cause yt not to serve for us / but also make against us. For sure I am / no place could have been les suspected then London and Cambridge / two off the highest hills in all the realm: from whence both the sound off yt might be the easilest carried into all other places / and which abounding with knowledge off the gospel / were fittest to judge off the goodness off the cause. Wherein I doubt not / but the good hand off God's direction / and the example off the Apostells: have been considered. who that they might have fuller sheues off the seed of their doctrine / preased to the chief and moother cities / making their account / that the mother being won / the daughters round about would be easilier entreated. And although yt come to often to pas / that there is some Amazias / or high priest nere the court / which useth both his eyes to watch that none come thither / to disquiet his unlawful possession: yet forsomuch as it is as impossible to pull the wings off the wind that yt should not blow / or shut the windows off the heavens that they should not rain / as to stop that truth / which God in his holy word hath breathed / and doeth rain by the clouds off his ministry: I doubt not / but the voice off yt is come to the highest / and shall have that fruit in time / which God hath disposed off. If yt should not: yet every faithful minister is detter unto his flock / off the whole truth learned owt off the word off God: as well for rejoicing their hearts in increase of knowledge / as that thereby they might bewail their sins for want off yt: and forthwith be stirred to continual prayer / that God would incline the Princes heart and off others in authority / to give yt that defense which appertaineth.
Nether do we therefore call upon the examination off our doctrine / as though we feared least our behavior should be examined / or as if yt resembled the Anabaptists manner of living: but that I might show / how disorderly the D. goeth to work. For although before the Lord / we (and I for my part especially) as miserable sinners hang down our heads and cover our faces: yet our behavior (through his grace) touching that surmised of us / ys such) as we nothing fear / but with all indifferent judgment yt containeth plentiful remedy / against the sting off all such slanderous tongues. Wise Physicians / when the disease is unknown: seek yt by outward tokens off pulse / urine / &c. If we had nourished any night or corner doctrine / which we whispering in the ears of certain / would not have had come owt of the doors of our private houses: yt should have been accounted to him for wisdom / by signs and conjectures to have inquired into our covert opinions. But now seeing we have Fanckly and openly published our judgments and as yt were on the Faire and Market days proclaimed them / offering them in schools / in churches / by preaching / by writing / not only to the taste off the common people but to the examination of the best learned: after all this to inquire by signs and tokens / is to seek his adversary which standeth hard by / to call for him which is present. And yt is as if one / to know what judgment another is of: had rather take his mark by the color of his coat or tag of his point / then by his speech or hand writing. And if it were / the good will off God: I would (for this matter) he had a window / to look into our consciences. To make and ende of answer / to these surmises / whatsoever is proper ether to the heresy off Papists / Anabaptists / Donatists / or puritans: that we utterly condemn / unto the bottomless pit off hell. But if amongst the filth of their herises / there may be found any good thing (as yt were a grain off good corn in a great deal of darnel): that we willingly receive / not as theiree / but as the Jews did the holy Ark from the Philistines / whereof they were unjust owners. For herein yt is true / that is said: the sheep must not lay down her fell, because she seeth the wolf somtim clothed with yt. yea yt may come to pas / that the Synaguog off Satan: may have someone thing a • sometime / with more convenience / then the true and Catholic church off Christ. Such was the ceremony off pouring water once only upon the child in baptism / used with us and in the moste reformed churches: which in some age / was used only by those off the Eunomian heresy. As for the Answerer / let him remember that the just Judge liveth: before whom (if he do not speedelie repent) one day notwithstanding his glosses (I accuse none, I apply yt to none) he must hold up his hand / with Satan the Prince off the accusers off the children off God: whereunto I doubt not but his own conscience is his Apparitor / and hath given him summonce. And thus much for answer / unto the D. general / partly accusations and partly surmises: against the favorers / off the church discipline now propounded.
There follow / particular charges: against the authors off the admonition / and against me. Those against them have been answered / and the answers so far forth as they touche the cause / are in this boke maintained: saving certain new charges. Wherein I doubt not but they will take yt in good part / that I use silence: seeing that some of the smaller things are such as lie not in my knowledge / and some so manifestly untrue / that they need not fear any credit to be given unto them: the D. him self (as I think) not believing them. Of his accusations against me / because some have eye as well to the speakers as to the things spoken: I trust / yt shall not be grievous / if I answer something. Especially when in this preface / beside other things: I purpose (God willing) to Synk / nigh half his later book. For if one would make survey off reproaches / untrue surmises / and false accusations / wherewith he hath frawght yt: beside a nwe lode which he hath charged the second edition off his first boke with: he should (I suppose) find / nigh one half spent in those wares. Wherein he dealeth with me / as certain beasts; which pursued cast forth behind them an intolerable savor / thereby to affray their hunters from further chasing them. In deed / they are very unpleasant: but the good savor off the truth / and off honest behavior in things he accuseth me off / hath (by the grace off God) so comforted all the senses off my mind / that he hath not escaped by this policy.
Some off his accusations / touche the cause: but the most part / touche yt not. Off this later kind one sort are off my manner of living▪ albeit he count yt a childish kind off confuting, that one should leave the cause, and take himself to the person. Here / my ministry is diuerslie accused: as that I did not seek for the order off priesthood as it is called: for that is that he meaneth I should have done by oath or else departed the College. The answer hereto is longer / then this treatise may embrace: which I am ready to exhibit before him / to whom it belongeth: because I am provoked / I humbly desire him to receive the cause. But in a word: yt ys a mere cavil. For the meaning off the statute off the house / is to provide that men should not turn their studies / to other professions off law &c: but that there should be to furnish the College off a number off preachers / off which I was one / as sone as I entered. Nether was there any duty of ministry / which the College could require off me; that I was not enabled to do according to the laws of the church off England / by virtue off that ministry / which I had received. So that the law yt self (as that whose meaning was fulfilled even with my entry) did not require yt. Also the corruption off the law / or at the least off his interpretation (binding men to beg a ministry and thereby after a sort to testify off them selves that they befit for yt) might after knowledge that I owght not to beg it / justly keep me back. By how much more / I were worthy to be condemned / if (as he accuseth) I had ambitiously desired to be the Queens majesties divinity reader: for which / I never opened lip. If I had / how knoweth he / I did yt ambitiously: who maketh yt lawful, to ask yt. So that unless / he know my heart: my laboring for it (if any had been) is justified by his divinity. The life / I answer to another not vnlife: that I earnestly desired, the degree off doctorship. Wherein beside that I moved nothing / but yielded only to the request off certain frindes: I had (before my grace propounded in the schools) the advise off more than a dosen learned ministers. Who considering / that I had the office off a Doctorin the university: were off opinion / that (for the good they esteemed might be done thereby) I might swallow the fond and idle ceremonies / which accompany yt. His fourth is / that I have forsaken the ministry. whereunto I answer / as I have for them whom he likewise chargeth. His fifth / that I myself preaching before here and there where I thought good, now condemn yt in others: the answer whereof / is partly page 45. line 17. off his / and partly page 41. line 20. off my boke. The last / that I refused his conference: which is untrue. For beside that I answered / that yt was meet the doctrine I had taught openly / should be defended openly / : and beside that also I went to two off the university Doctors / to be conferred with: I offered myself to his private conference / which although he had promised / yet under pretence that I was (as he said) vncorrigible / he would not perform. The truth is / he offered private conference by writing: but having before experience off his unfaithfulness many ways / I refused yt. And thus much to his accusations / touching as well my coming to and going from the ministry: as also off my behavior in yt. Of the most whereof / there are diverse witnesses: and off all / the Lord himself both witness and judge / whose presence in this defense I set before mine eyes. Vnles peradventure / that also may seem to appertain hither: that by defense off this cause / I would choose myself the place off my ministry. Wherof I lay evil foundations / which teache that no man may place himself: but wait / for his calling: especially when by his doctrine / I may feed in every pasture / and lightly grasing or taking the uppermost of one / straight way goo to another.
In the other part of my life / after he had thrust me out of the College: he accuseth me for going up and down doing no good, and living at other mens tables. that I was not idle / I suppose he knoweth to well: Whether well occupied or no / let it be judged. I lived in deed / at other men's tables, having no house nor wife of mine own: but not without their desire / and with small delight of mine / for fear of evil tongues. And although I were not able / to requite yt: yet towards some I went about yt / instructing their children partly in the principles off religion / partly in other learning. His other accusations / beside the cause: are off my manner off writing. The matter is blamed: for that (as he saith) yt consisteth wholly of other men's notes and collections, and that I have scarce red one off the authors which I have alleged: yea and that I also contemn them, namely master; Nowels Catechism. And for the form. It is blamed as undutiful towards the Archbishops, bishops, &c. namely the Bishop of Salisbury, and himself especially. That off contempt off M. Nowels / and other men's works: I detest as intolerable arrogancy. The other / wherein the question is off great reading: I let pas. For if he be learned / and I not / have read them all and I scarce one: it will easily appear to the learned: beside that (as I have said) it toucheth not the cause. Only I admonish / that he do yt hereafter / with better ground. For notwithstanding (it is like he hunteth me with moe howndes / then I him: yet beside those places I confess myself to have received / he noteth not many / and (that excepted off Jerome mistaken for Musculus) not one trewlie.
Let us therefore come to the form. Where in my behavior towards the bishop of Salisbury / I would gladly know of him / what words he could have prescribed me: whereby I might more modestly have dissented from him. So that unless the simple defense of the cause / be misbehavior: I am well assured / there is no duty broken. For my speeches off the Archbishops / &c. generally / if all should be taken either in this or the former book against their persons / which I speak against their offices: his accusation should not be / altogether untrue. But as condemning these offices or their corruptions / I make no conscience to speak contemptuously off them: so diverse off the persons which bear them / both for their learning / and proof of godliness shown in times past / I will not cease to reverence / until which (I hope will not be) by open enmity against a known truth / their own consciences shall think them selves unworthy. And this to an indifferent reader / shall suffice: for towards the D. I have no remedy / which expoundeth all dutiful sayings counterfaict humility, glorious and Smooth words to get credit.
My duty towards him / is accused diversely / of vnbrotherhood, unfaithfulness, want of good will: made heinous / by circumstance of perjury and unthankfulness Wherein I will not answer / that I used not you as master / because yow used not me as fellow: but ask yow / wherein this breach off duty consisteth? If Iowe yow fidelity, Iowe yt more unto the lord: if good will, the truth must be preferred: if the master of Trinity College be a friend / the truth is more: If yow a brother, the truth owght to be brother, sister, mother and all. Against what part off true fidelity ys yt / to reprove him openly by writing: which had openly by writing spoken evil off that / which I was / and am persuaded to be the everlasting truth off God / and reviled those / which maintained yt. Against what point / off good will / to have shown him the way / whom I judged to be owt: to light him a candle / whom I saw in this point to grope in darkness. And if I did yt sharper / then your taste can like off / beside that bitter things / are often wholesomer then sweet: yow should not think much to be stricken with the back off the sword / which have smitten others with the edge / nor to be lightly pricked with some impair off your credit / which havē thrust others through / in taking from them so much as lay i • yow / all opinion both of godliness and learning. Yow doubt / whether I meant good faith when I called yow a brother: take heed lest in giving no credit unto others / yow leave no place for others to give any to yow. And if I had offended / in these: yet my unthankfulness / cannot be great. Yow never gave me anything in my bosom or secretly / what yow have given by sound off trump and openly: cannot be hidden. But my reproaches, and (as yow often cal them) gybes: cannot be excused. yt is not meet / that I should myself sit in judgment off my own modesty: yt ys unreasonable also / that yow the party grieved should. For as self-love may blind mine eyes / and (as parents in their children) not only cause me not to see the blemishe / but also to think yt an ornament: so may displeasure dasel yours / and cause your judgment to decline to much on the one side. My conscience dōth not hitherto accuse me / in this behalf: others also whom this hath misliked / will peradventure be more favorable: if it be first considered / that yow account diverse for pleasant speeches / which are not / thereby to avoid that yow could not answer. Of which sort is that 767. line 6. and 576. line 23. Secondly / if yt be considered / that yow take some things otherwise: then I wrote them. For example / where I note your homelie mirth of the cursed wife, and thief which stole the priests purse, to have been with the baggipe and not with ether the harp or lute: yow expound it / as though I had taken myself to the country wherein yow were born. Which verily I meant not / but had regard only to the greek proverb / whereof Tully maketh mention: that those which could not come to the honor to handle the harp, were content to use the bagpipe. Which is evident / in that I oppose country, not your country, your mirthe, to learned mirth. Here also (seemeth) should be considered / how yow have • oden us: with those reproaches / which yow accuse me of. Wherein / not to waste paper in rehearsal of all: I will only give a taste of your later book, for that / off your other boke in which all know your intemperance: yow deny there is any such thing / because I gathered yt not.
A mind full of revengement, 799. Ould rancor, 2. Stomackes such, and arrogancy so great, 12. Stomacke swelling, 109. Boiling, 56. Spirit of yowrs bursteth, 37. He swelleth like the sea 423. Reueale that lump off arrogancye and ambition, 467. deep dissembled hypocricie, 467.
A face puffed up with arrogancy and vainglory, 799.
Manner off writing spiteful malicious contemptuous owtragious, 12. Arrogant, 32. Scoulding, 12. prattling, 512. lying, 467. A shameless and wicked lie, 422. Tonges unnatural 6. Wauering, wicked, wretched, 422. Hoat eloquence, 409. Hoate Rhetoric, 45. Cynicall Rhetoric, 391. Lucians Rhetoric, 489. Figure off lying, 812. Whether will this venomous mouthe reach? 445. Words serpentine and viperous, 422. He bloweth owt, stormeth against me, 56. Roreth like a Lyon, 423.
Off a divine become a scorneful iester, 577. Your vein off gybing and jesting, 25. Flowting, 91. Arrogant scoffs and frumpes, 336. Heathnish floutes and frumpes, 470. Boke pestered with moe stoutes and iestes then hardinges. What drunken poet, profane Philosopher, or boy off grammar school knoweth not &c. 151. Heathnish confuting, 25. Babishe abusing scripture, 262. Wilfull depraving, 16. Conuicted wickedness, 56.
The Archbishop hath cause to thanck yow for your gentilnes, 374. A daunsing devise, 337. Suche a mighty man in scripture, and so profound in all knowledge, pag. 9. I suppose yow use them as means to cast up your melancholy which yow call zeal, 39. But soft man a while yow do but dream 209.
Let him take all these whereof diverse are often repeated / and if he be ashamed off them / hide them: yet for any word off reproach I have used in either off my books / I will find both moe / and more bitter in his later boke / whereof I have not once made mention. Where also it owght not to be forgotten how his second boke is as heavy with this kind off stuff as his first: if not haeuier. They say / it is better to be beaten second: because the hardness off angre, is commonly broken upon the first. But (yt seemeth) the Answerer dronck in more off his angre / then he poured forth. Lastly / let it be considered whether his answers are (for the most part) so ridiculous / that if he which is said to have wept so much had replied upon him: he could easilier have holden hot coles in his mouth / then have abstained from those salt sayings / which he so sore complaineth off. Here I omit / that the scripture doth diverse times use this kind off reprehending: Also that the most modest spirit off all the ancient writers not permitteth only / but as yt were exhortethe / to a merciful kind off deriding. So that / the mind being pure: the thing yt self used moderately to discredit sin / cannot be condemned.
His accusations / which touche the cause follow: where abbridging the magistrates authority / often repeated but never proved / shall be seen in the proper places. There / shall appear that I have brought it into no smaller roum: then the word off God hath shut it / and the best learned and godliest writers both nwe and old have plainly taught of yt. In which point / let yt be also here observed: how there be no words so fenced against all cavils / which the D. will not assay to deprave. For where I cited examples to prove / that men are said to do things whereof they are the chief and principal and not the only doers / and amongst them alleged that off Moses which appointed officers by the people's consent: he feareth not to say / that I thereby pushe at the civil magistrate, and infinuat that the prince may not appoint under officers without the people's election. But let him answer / what is the instrument wherewith (I will not say) I pushe: but so much as towche yt with my little fingar? ys it because I say / those governors were chosen with consent of the people? the scripture (as is after shown) doth manifestly prove yt. Or did I ever teache it in pulpit / mention it in disputation / defend it in talk / whereby these words might with more likelihood / be hailed unto such a sense? what would this man have done (trow yow) if I had (as Master Bullinger doth) vpō that place of Moses concluded / that the people's consent / owght to be in the election off their Pastor. Not unlike to this / is that whereby (upon a rule brought and applied as well by other learned men / as by me to the Ecclesiastical election) he would insinuate: that I meant yt should be translated to the civil estate. Where appeareth: that there is no spark off equity in him. For if the rule were given generally / then my applying of it only / to Ecclesiastical elections / doth rather call yt from being understanded off the civil: if it be given of it alone / then it is clear that I used it accordingly. Beside that I have shown / that it is far otherwise in the civil then in the Ecclesiastical government: and that things unlawful in one / are notwithstanding lawful in the other. But thus must I restore that I never toke: and be accused off things which I not only never did, but not so much as know off. Here also falseth / another accusation of flattery off the people, with injury to the magistrate. Where him self giveth, me at least this testimony / that I have been evil scholed in that craft: which have chosen masters / that can do so little for me. If the state off our common wealth had been such / as wherein the people had born the sway: his accusation untrue / should yet have had some color off truth.
An other accusation / is off wrong in not setting down his boke: as one looth it should be compared, and for fear my corrupt dealing should appear. But this accusation / lieth against the most part of learned men: which having confuted adversaries off the truth / have not only not set down there books / but not given their readers so particular addres for conference / as I did. Here therefore / ether let him absolve me: or condemn me / with them. That I did yt not in such respect as he saith / I have protested: the truth whereof shall now appear. And withal / that notwithstanding his setting down: let the reader judge whither he useth (as he saith off me) frivolous replies, childish collections, fraudulent depraving off my boke. Beside that he hath passed by diverse reasons off mine untouched: yea and as shall (God willing hereafter appear) guilfully left out of his own boke / in one or two places. And because I am entered into his dealing / having been tied now full two years / to turn this stone of his writings: it will not be amis to admonish of some of his practices / whereby the reader may the better know how to turn himself in them / ether present or to come / if he keep on the some course. In the rest therefore off his boke / beside reproaches / furmises / &c: one part is spent / in naked affirmations without proof / vented often by questions etherfond or from the purpose / and in dry testimonies off men: both which are (as other his furniture) repeated / and that sometimes again and again. That where the Cuckow / trobleth but once a year: he with his untunable repetitions off one thing to the same purpose / trobleth all the year long. Yet hath he / every hand while: to be short.
In his testimonies / beside that yt shall appear / that so many as make to the cause they are almost everyone ether falsified / or drawn from the meaning of the authors: yt is first to be observed / that to answer the places off scripture alleged / yt is very like that he first turneth to Master Calvin / if he be against him he goeth to ask favor at other: if nobody answer nothing / yet he bringeth sundry times even that nothing / that is to say which maketh not for him / sometime also against him. Secondly / where in his former boke / he propoundeth certain things / as his own: not able to maintain them in this / he callethe for the authors assistance / of whom he hath not so much borrowed them / as taken them against their willes. yet he counteth yt vain glory, to take owt off an autor, and to conceal his name Notwithstanding / if he had known from whom his collections came / which he useth / and had been thankful to his authors / in that sort he saith we owght: we should often have had in the margent / for Augustine, Ambrose, Chrysostom, &c. Pighius / Hosius / Harding / &c. To let pas diverse reasons I gave him / which he never thanked me for: but hideth them as well as he can / by taking them up before hand / or he came to the place where I give them. Thirdly where his authority is nameless / and goethe under this general title / other learned men think otherwise, a learned man saith so: have yt for suspected / off popery. For that / in some off those places: he can have no other authors but Papists / as I am persuaded. Last off all / that he doth often bately recite them / without applying them to his matter: or gathering his argument off them. The cause whereof is / for that they are not hable / to bear any argument / the vanity whereof / would not forthewith appear / if it were gathered. Which is manifest / for as much as where any color off argument doth but peep / there he presseth them diligently: which practice he useth in his other proofs / albeit he precisely reprehendeth it in the authors off the Admonition.
Touching the other part of that which remaineth in his boke / standing ether of his reasons against our cause / or answers off the reasons against his • in both yow may observe / that the proving off that in question / by that which is likewise dowbted of / occupieth a great room. In his answers to mine / he will often acknowledge no argument: Because yt is not set down in the precise ether order off propositions / or other exact form of Sillogism. Which (I think) is a straiter law / then any writer hitherto hath been bound unto: yet I will not refuse it / if he will give me an example: the matter having now been so largely debated / to the understanding of the simpler sort. Let him therefore / if he dare trust his cause: deal that way / another while. As for diverse particular faults / in his lodgick / and grammar through evil translation / considering that they bring no prejudice to the truth in question / and hurting not the vnlearneder / are quickly espied off the other: I am well content / to hold back. Thus much / to the Answerers both general and particular accusations and surmises: in such sort / a • I mean (God willing) never upon any his importunity to return unto again. For as for that page 21. line 3. and such other as have manifest confutation in the places owt off which they are raised / they are most unworthy the naming.
Having spoken thus much for their causes especially / which misinformed by the D. have no good opinion of the discipline now propounded: yt remaineth to say something for theirs / which acknowledging yt for the truth off God / do not stretch forth their hands to bring yt in / or at the least / not with that endeavor which owght to be. Wherein yt seemeth they do not so fully consider that before alleged / of the use of the discipline / the same in the church / that the wall about the city / or hedge about the orcheiard. If we think / that men which would be safe from their enemies / need not greatly to travail after a wall / or they which would have their tender plants bring plentiful fruit and be untouched off hurfull beasts / not much to labor after a hedge or diche for safeguard of them / then we may also think / that the church / and the doctrine of the Apostles whereupon the church is built / may long continw and flourish without the discipline left by them. But if / the one be not to be looked for: the hoping for the other / will but deceive us. Whereof if there were no proof / but our own experience: the case is clearer / then can be well denied. For whereof cometh it that so many thowsandes (I will not say of men and women) but of towns and villages remain in such ignorance of all duty towards God / and their neighbor: that the estate off their ox (which with his last breath shall end his labor / and hear no more the voice of the whip) is a thousand times better then theirs / whom everlasting tomentes of body and sowl wait for / and must assuredly ensue if they so remain. Cometh it not hereof / that in steed of a learned ministry / which should show them the right way / be thrust upon them at the pleasure / or permission off the bishop / and appetite off the patron / blind guides which scarce know a foot of it them selves: yea which sometimes (as cometh to pas in sundry popish priests that remain) endeavor to turn them out off the way / if happily any were entered? Wheroff cometh it that off those which have able ministers to feed them: diverse towns cannot yet get owt of this condemnation, ys it not thereof / that some pastors like covetous nourses charging them selves with moe / then they are able to nource / suffer them all to starve? that other some more unnatural then the dragons them selves (which lay owt their breasts / unto their young) by dispensation / turn away their faces quite from them? whose mouths / are almost never open to teache / but when their hands are likewise to receive? And if some in a good intent to help many / lend one hand to one congregation / and his other unto another: yet when ether of them require both hands to be pulled owt off the mire wherein they stick so fast / his fault being a great deal les then the others / the people's condemnation remaineth the same. Wheroff also ys y • / that in diverse off those Towns where the gospel hath daily shined: the darkness of ignorance / hath not been put to flight. Cometh yt not thoroff / that many speaking smally to purpose off the text they handle / or blowing up their sermons ether with poetes fables / sayings off Philosophers and that oft in strange language / amaze them rather with a woēndermēt of their learning / then edify thē in faith and true repentance. And not that only / but thereby also bring them owt of all taste with all simple and plain kind off teaching: so that they which do not so / are called by reproach English Doctors. Which by often̄ meetings of the ministers / in exercise off Prophecy or interpretation of some scripture / through mutual censures and admonitions: would easily be remedied.
Wheroff is it / that even where the gospel is soundly and abūdandly taught: knowledge hath not accordingly followed. Ys it not thereof / that the principles / and grounds of religiō are not by Catechism laid forth: that those of whose ether capacity or diligence yt is doubted / are not (that a supply may be made) particularly examined? Wheroff cometh yt that Arians / Valentinians and Anabaptists / in diverse sortes with such other detestable heretics: are so rife / in many places of the land. Ys it not thereof / that there is no eldership / which might assist the pastor / to espy them out: no pastorable by substancial reasons to convince them: no authority there to decide of them / or after decision by ecclesiastical censures to punish them. Wheroff cometh yt / that horrible blaspheming the holy and most reverend name of God / quarreling and fighting / dronckennes / filthy speaking / fornicatiō / adultery / slandering and such like / run over almost in every place / off which some are so open that there is no night or corners sought to hid them / but are done in the high streets / and at noon days: yea (which is fearful) that often there is more danger to them that reprove these faults / then to those which commit them. Ys it not hereof that there is no eldership to watch over these offenses / to admonish the offenders / and by ecclesiastical censures to correct them. Wheroff cometh it / that in so many excellent laws / provided against roges and beggars: there are yet (to the manifest breach of the law of God / and hasard of the common wealth) such numbers. Ys it not heroff / that the office off Deacons / which god had ordained for that purpose (the bare name remaining) is abolished: and that the Lord will give no blessing to those good laws / because his order is neglected. Finally hereof it cometh / that having a gracious Prince maintaining / and her honorable Counsall fauoring the preaching of the gospel / in so long and quiet peace / apt for the furtherance off yt: there is notwithstanding so small fruit that (saving a few which the lord hath gathered) for the general estate of the Realm / the Gospel may seem hitherto rather to have shined for further condemnation of it / then for light or heat of salvation / joined therewith, what price therefore we set of the glory off God / what accompt we make off the salvation of our country: that estimation we must keep / off the discipline off God / left unto us by his holy Apostles.
This if it were deeply weighed: it would cause us to breakthrowgh the lets which (I see) stay some / and make other some to faint in the furtherance of this cause. For some which desire that this cause might gain / through a mind abhorring from contention / especially inward / an with them of the same religion: stand further of from yt / then otherwise they would. Wherein I willingly acknowledge Rebeccas affection: a figure off the church off God. For notwithstanding she prayed / unto the lord for children: yet feeling them strive within her Womb / wished she had never conceived. But alas / the state off men is not so happy: to obtain any excellent thing / without strift. Errors and falsehood have often times easy entrance / whilst the husbandmen sleep: but because the enemy always waketh / the trweth must fight / or ever she / can get anything. wherein / to pas by an infinite number of examples: that which is proper to this place (off the dangerous assaults which this cause suffered at Geneva) ys worthy off your consideration. For albeit the contention there was not in Judgment only / and in words / but with great disorders and tumults / to the present danger off the city: yet M. Calvin / and other faithful servants of God / offered them selves not only to loss off their ministry / and banishment / but even to death / rather then they would go one foot back / from that truth off the discipline / which they had learned owt off the word off God / which had been / rashly done / if the matter had been off so small importance: as that (for redeming off peace) they might have let the cause of the discipline fall / or laid it aside / until a fitter time. There are (God be praised) no tumults nor uproars with us / and I hope there shall be none: but as yt is not lawful for us to move any / so to withdraw the hand from defense off the cause / for fear of them to be moved by others / is against duty.
There are others / which as the espies off the land of Canaan / confessing it good and profitable for the church: yet in respect of the manifold lets / affirm it a thing impossible: and thereby not only discorage them selves / but weaken the hands off other. And even here also / I see Rebecca again. For yt appeareth by the lords answer unto her / two people's should be divided owt of her bowls: that she was in some dispair off having strength / to be delivered of her desired seed / considering the dangerous wrestlings and struglinges / in her womb. And in deed / if we consider our selves / if we look upon our own arms: I grant the walls against it / are higher then will be scaled / the gates and bars / are stronger then will be broken through / the children come to the birth / there will be no strength to bring forth. For herein casting our accōptes / we must wait for not only the misliking of our brethren / which be misled / the hatred of the obstinate Papists which see their kingdō vnreparable / if this get place: but the deadly enimities off Hypocrites / and Atheists / which will not suffer their untamed lusts to come under any yoke off correction / nor their lose affections off riotous pleasures / proud ambition / and insatiable covetousness to be bound / with any bands off wholesome discipline.
But of the other side / if we look unto the lord / and his mighty arm which not only with a blast of his mouth striketh the walls / and breaketh the gates in pieces / but also maketh the high walls to fall / and the iron gates to open of their own accord / which maketh not only the weak / but even the barē women to bring forth: No difficulty or impossibility in the judgment off men owght to turn us from any lawful endeavor / to promote the cause. The example off the wall in Jerusalem finished / notwithstanding all the enemies: serveth here / for our confirmation. For if the lord / stretched forth his hand for furtherance of that material wall: he will not in the advancing off this spiritual / hold it in his bosom. If he forsook not his servants / under heathen Princes: he will not be wanting to them under Christian. Hitherto belongeth / the example in Geneva: before mentioned. The whole estate off the City almost / from the highest unto the lowest (amongst whom were also the greatest part off the ministers) was bent against yt: two or three simple men scarce able to train their legs after them / having no other armor then the truth and a good conscience / stand for it. If flesh and blood should here sit in judgment / the field were lost / or ever yt were begun: the friends off the discipline / should (for that they toke the defense in hand) be accounted fools / for that they would not cōpound the matter / mad men. But what was the issue? Verily the Lord so magnified his word / in the hand of his servants / that after trial off their patience by diverse troubles / the Capitaines against yt / came to shameful end / a number yielded / the rest that continued their enemitie / durst not show yt / the truth yt self was established / and so (to the singular commendation off that city) remaineth. And shall we / in so great a number whose hearts the Lord hath inclined to favor this cause despair? especially seeing yt ys easier to be established with us / then with them: and may here be settled / without so much as a dog moving his tongue / which was not there / without dangerous uproars. For where no wholesome law can pas there / unless the most part consent: only / the hundredth part with us / weigheth down all the rest.
Yt remaineth / that as the Iwes in the wall off Jerusalem / did everyone according to the ability the Lord had blessed them with build his part: so those / whose hearts the lord hath lightened with the knowledge of this truth / should as their callings / and means which the lord hath given them will serve / lay their hands to the work. That those whom the lord hath given favor or acces unto her majesty / would set before their eyes the example of that worthy courtier Nehemiah's: which (forgetting his private profit and preferment) for full recompense of all his faith full service unto his Prince / was glad to obtain at his hand the building up of the walls off the city of God: and therefore not to reserve the grace and credit they have with her highness / for their own matters / but to bestow yt upon the Lord's. That the Prince her self / would consider how (to let pas the danger unto her sowle) unworthy yt ys off her honor / if through untrue reports ether against the cause / or favorers thereof / she turn away her ear from hearing / and taking knowledge of it: seeing a heathen king / did not admit such rumors against that which concerned the glory off God: although they were offered thick and threefold / and that by his one coutrey men / against the Iwes / which were but strangers. Finally / that we all continually / pray to the lord: that he would vouchsafe to open their eyes which are yet ignorant in this behalf / confirm those which have knowledge / and confound thē (if any be) which ether for honor / or lucres sake / willingly bend thē selves / against the truth.
To the reader.
THe cause off the slowness of answer, hath been in part my often sickness, and want off books off all Sortes: a few only excepted, which I brovght with me, and those for the most part English: so that for every Place almost, cited off the D. I was constrained to seek in other men's libraries, and after I had used the book, to carry it home again. Which with what loss of time, yt was: may easily be esteemed. Ad hereunto: the slackness off the print. For although yt had been my singular advantage, both for polishing and better ordering off things, to have put nothing under the pres, before the whole book had been finished: yet beginning to print, after I had made an end off one treatise, and begun another, yt was notwithstanding scarce able to overtake me.
Amongest the causes, why I set forth one part, before the whole was ended: one ys, for that this former part rose to a just volume. An other, that if anything have escaped which may be hurtful unto the truth: I might (being advertised) amend yt in the later part: whereof I desire the Godly reader, with as convenient speed as he can, to give me understanding.
The treatise off the apparel I have passed by, the causes whereof (assigned by me) if they shall not be approved, by those to whose judgment I submit myself: upon significatiō off their mind in that behalf, I will resume yt again in that place where I shall handle the convenience and inconvenience off the ceremonies off the church, unto which place, I wish I had reserved the most part off that Tractat, which in my book ys the first.
The learned reader I desire, that where • confute some things, unworthy in his judgment to be mentioned: he would give that, to those that are not so well advanced. Althowgh I confess, that off a number off them the consultation (whether any were so rude as not to perceive them, without help) stood me in more, then the confutation. The reader that unwillingly readeth the controversies, between those off the same profession in doctrine (I trust) shall not lose his travail, if he desire to be confirmed against the errors off the papists: the same in many places, with the Answerers. Off all I desire, both learned and others, that they would support my weakness, wheresoever and in what sort so ever yt shall appear: seeing I trust, it shall be manifest unto them, that in a good cause, I have labored also to keep a good conscience.
For better understanding of the book, after yow are a little entered: yow shall (where I remembered yt) find the doctor, although not always in so many words▪ yet in the same sense, in a smaller letter: the testimonies and that alleged out off my former book and admonition being in a greater. Sometimes through his to much fondness, and repetition, I put only a word or two: to give the reader to understand that I wander not without an adversary: referring him, for further knowledge unto his own book, when I refer yow for any place, ether of my former, or else off both his (a few excepted in the beginning) I follow his later book: where all these books be. Of faults escaped in the printing, some are such, as ether overthrow the whole sense, corrupt yt: or that otherwise may greatly hinder yow. Which I have set apart from the rest, desiring yow to vouchsafe to correct them especially, with your pen: considering that yt is but a small labor, to yow in one book, which would have been infinite to me in all. Fare well gentle reader: and if thow take any profit off my labors, remember me in thy prayers unto the lord for his assistance in the rest off my life, and namely for that which remaineth of answer, unto the D. book.
The faults, most necessary to be corrected.
Page 15. lin. 8. put owt priests and. and l. 14. put owt either priests or, pag. 31. lin. 26. read is not asword. pag. 57. lin. 11. read with the contrary of that sentence, pag. 66. lin. 22. put owt against, pag. 84. stat R flat. pag 152. lin. 9. put owt such. pag. 164. lin▪ 26. yet R. yea. pag. 170. lin. 31. for the second invisible. R. visible. pag. 173. lin. 31 R. faithfulness, pag. 191. lin. 23. in the margent R. 2. Coun. pag. 211. li. 8. put owt they, pag. 252. lin. 26. for decree. R. they decreed. pag. 261 lin. 20. pastors R. people. pa 266. lin. 32. R. for if the. pa. 273. lin. 34. in certain copies, For those alleged Titus to prove Timothy and: read those alleged to prove that Timothy and Titus did. pag. 296. lin. 26. R. Evangelists and pastors. pag. 368. li. 16. gifts, R. vices. pag. 390. li. 16 put owt but. pag. 402. lin. 16. R. inconvenient. pag. 440 lin. 5. this R. there is. pag. 441. li. 9. put for as, where as, and lin. 12. R. and in not. pag. 443. lin. 2. obtained. R. observed pa. 499. lin. 22 after the word before: ad, yt appointeth. pag. 516. lin. 19. for bishops R. elders, pag. 553. li. 2. put out belike such as ours.
Other faults which may somewhat stay the Reader.
Page 9. line 6. put owt and pag. 11. li. 15. saith R. faith. page 18. li. 35. one read own. page 19, li. 25, R, proceedeth. page 21. li. 19. R. Vincentius. page 23. li. 6. they R. there. page 31. li. 2. R. spake. page 33. in the margent put owt Jerome Tom. 3. preface in Job. page 37. li. 11. R. boldness. page 41. li. 5. R. suspicion. page 42. li. 21. R. not to come. page 46. in the margent. R. implicita. pa. 46. li. 30. R. members, page 49. l. 14. for R. of, page 50. li 21. R. magnify, pa. 51. li. 11. there all R the real, page 52. li. 29. put owt the, page 53 li. 9. R. that a man, li. 11. R. and not only, page 55. li. 36. R▪ herewith, page 61. li. 25. diuis. 7. R. 5, page 64. li. 28. R not note, pag. 77. li. 18. R. Ancyran, li. 21. put owt is page 94. li. 16. R. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , page 96. li. 31. R. remnantes, page 106. li. 4. R. snatcher, page 108. li. 35. this. R. thus, page 112. li. 18. R. tell me now, page 116. li. 19. put owt yet, page 131. li. 26. R. poor, page 133. li 26. R self, pa. 145 li. 8. R. answerer, li. 8. be R. he, page 146. li. 24. R. soundness of doctrine, page 148. l. 36. R. not, page 151. li. 6. R. gift, l. 29. R. ability, page 194. l. 8. put owt the figure of twelve, page 211. li. 23. M. R master, page 225. li. 20. R. I have, page 233. li. 3. if, R. yt, page 234 li. 35. in the magent, R. • 75, page 238. li. 13. R. was then, page 247. li. 8, R. the whole, page 265. li. 19. R. favoring, page 259. li. 24. R. yow might, page 281. li. 15 put owt and, page 293 li. 20. R ministry, page 302. li. 11. R title, page 316. li. 13. he R. be, li. 7. R. moste, page 334. li. 37. R. with, page 337. li. 18. R. yt is in an, page 341. li. 29. be R. he, page 351. li. 35. R. are in the, li. 36 are R. of, page 364 li 30, R seven year, page 373. l 21. R. reading, li. 28. R. dealing, page 380. li: 24 in the margent, R. 572. page 394. li. 13 yt, R. yet, page 405. li. 29. R. 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , page 457 li 36 for the second there, R. his, page 460. li. 32, R. in that, page 478. li 20. R. for him, page 485. li. 12. R. weigh, page 492, li. 1. put owt which, page 494. li. 18. R. title, page 504. li. 24. R. chew words, page 503. li. 12. 17 29. 33. R Sozomene, page 508▪ li. 29. R. fondly, page 534 li. 29. R. had said, page 536. li. 1. R. done, page 562. li. 34, R. piece, page 565. li. 29, their R. other li. 33. for other, R. their, page 566. l. 16 R. with, page 570. li. 9. in the margent, R. aduersus, page 581. li. 30, R. scambling, page 585. li, 8, is, R, as,
The answer, unto the doctors preface: entitled, to the godly reader,
TO all here / in controversy / considering they are barely said without proof: if they be affirmations / one yea / if they be denials / one nae / shall be enough: seeing they are all handled at large in this book. Except that / off ceremonies used in popery / whereof how untruly he speaketh when he saith that the rejecting off them / standeth upon this / that we may not use, in any wise or in any consideration retained in the church anything that hath been abused under the Pope: both hath manifestly in my former book / and further shall (God willing) in the later part off my reply appear.
Answer to his two Tables / whereof the first is intitled off dangerous pointes off doctrine: the other off untruths and falsified authorities, contained in my reply.
AFter I had ended my book / and was entered upon the preface: I received a treatise called / An examination off M. Doctor Whitgiftes censures, contained in two Tables, set before his book entitled the defense of the answer to the admoni. Wherof as I was glad for the truths safe which shall receive strength by yt so I was sory / that I received yt no sooner / for that it might both have cased me off much labor / and have served me for a good direction in those places / which might seem to require a larger defense / then the shortness yt followeth / would receive. And as those off the church which acknowledge this truth / so I especially / for whose support (I take) yt was written / heartily thanck the autor and desire the reader / to use yt for a supply / where my answer doeth not satisfy him. Which answers off mine / so far as I have hitherto gone: he shall find / after this sort.
In the first Table.
The first Article because yt was not linked with any particular cause in controversy I pourposed to answer in this place: but now I will rest in the answer which is made. The 2. is answered page xlij. line 33. The 3. is answered page xlv. line 17. The 4 page liij li. 20. The 5. page lxxxix. li. 14. The 6. page xcv. l. 29. The 7. page ccxlij. li. 21. For the 8. I refer myself to the foresaid treatise: especially considering that I have passed by that whole Tractate. The 9. is answered page ccccxlviij. lin. 6. The 14. page. ccclj. li. 28. The 15. page ccclxxiij. li. 37.
In the second Table.
The first is answered page viii. li. 22. The 2. page ix. li. 26. The 3. page. lxij. li. 21. The 4. page lxxxij. lin. 37. The 5. page xcj. li. 4. The 6. page clx. ii. l. 29. The 7. page cxcj. li 1. In the 8. that part touching subtle suppression / is answered page cclij li. 12 the other lieth upon Illiricus / whom I named the autor off that report / if yt be not in the Code. The 9. is answered page cclv. li. 16. The 10. page cclvj. li. 27. The 11. page cclxxvj. li. 27. The 12. and 17. page cclxxvij. li. 17. The 13. page cclxxx. li. 12. The 14. page cclxxxj li. 4. The 15. page cclxxxij. li. 7. The 16. page ccc. li. 33. The 18 pa. cclx • x li. 34. To the 19. and 20. I answer as to the 8. off the first table. The 22. is answered page cccclxxxj. li. 18. The 22. ccccxxxvj. li. 12. The 23. page ccccxciij. li. 33. The 24. page diiij. li. 1. The 25. pa. dxij. li 28. The 26. page dxxxiiij. li. 11. The 27. dlxx. li. 15. The 28. page dcxxv. li. 26. The 29. page dcxxvj. li. 36. The 30. page dcxv. li. 4. The 31. page dcxxvij. li. 29. The 32. is answered before in the Epistle. The 33. page dcxlj. li. 13. The 34. page dcxliij. li. 33. The 35. page dcxlv. li. 1. The 36. page dxxiij. li. 5. The 37. page dcliiij. li. 1. The rest in both the tables remain to be answered / in the second part off my reply.
The reply unto the answer pag. j. &c.
FOr the four first sectyons / being either false accusations / bare repetitions off my words / or profess off things which I have set down and confess: I will not answer. His fifth section answerethe not any thing / to diverse reasons which I have set down / to prove that this cause cannot be charged with disorder / whose whole work is / that nothing be donne out off place / out off time / besides the bounds off everyone His several calling. in the 6. sectyon 4. pag. he falling to railing / doth gwilfully pass by the reason which I have alleged / why this doctine which we maintain / cannot be thought enemy unto princes / seeing yt was a friend to princes / when princes where enemies unto it. For him self cannot deny but the government by elders / the choice off the ministers by the church / the moste off those things which he especially supposeth to have war with the civil magistrate / and are in controversy between us / were in the times off the Apostells / when they being trodden under feet off the civil Magistrate / did never lift up their heel against his power.
And where he saithe / it is no plain dealing to draw that to this cause / which is trewly spoken off the gospel: he needed not to have charged us with want of plain dealing / seeing we offer to show the discipline to be a parte off the gospel / and therefore to have a common cause / so that in the repulse of the discipline / the gospel receiveth a check.
That the discipline off the church / is not in the number of those things which are varied / is disputed in the second tractate / and in her several partes / thorough out the whole book. That the distinction off the common wealth / and the church hath been and owght to be kept of all men / which have spokē or written with any Judgment / shall be shown in the 20. Tractate: and therefore although the answerer do a 100. times repeete this thing in bare affirmations: yet the reader shall once for all / look for the answer off thes things in those places.
In his 8. section page 1. he speaketh off the authority off the magistrate upon no occasion / to no purpose / with great words / with no proof. Then as though I had written in unknown figures as the priests of Egypt: he complaineth of my obscurity / and that he cannot understand what I mean: whereas I could hardly have used greater light of speech / if I had bente myself thereunto. For I prove the singular benefit that the discipline bringeth to the common wealth / for that by the Ecclesiastical censures off admonition / reprehension / suspension / &c. the lesser faults off lying / uncomely jesting / and choleric speaking being met with all: the passage is stopped against the greater faults off theft / adultery / and murder. Wherein observe his unfaithful dealing / which feining him self not to understand that which my words do fully sound: doth notwithstanding forge things off me / whereof there is not the smallest ynkling. For here upon he asketh / whether I think not the punishemet of theft / and murder sharp enough / with diverse other which follow: unto all which silence if they were handled as they deserve / were the fittest answer. Howbeyt to shut up the mouthe off them / which seek occasion / I answer: that as the Ecclesiastical censures / shut not out the civil punishments / nor hinder not in any parte their course: so the civil punishments cannot displace the church censures / considering that as the one is occupied in the punishment off the body / so the other is conversant in the instructing off the conscience: and we have a manifest example off the joining off them together in one / and the same action in the scripture. Where yt was ordained / that he that came not at the day appointed / should be punished by the loss off goods which was mere civil / and by separation from the congregation / which was altogether Ecclesiastical howbeit it shall be sufficient here to show / that where as the answerer should have disputed against this that the Ecclesiastical censures together with the ciuille punishments / have more force to resist sin / then the civil punishments only: not being able to answer to the reason / as though his nose blead / turnethe a side and looking another way / so reasonethe / as if the questiō were / whether the civil punishment were off greater strength to hold out sin / then the Ecclesiastical / which neither is / nor shall be the question at this time / yt is sufficient that they be both necessary. And whereas he asketh whether the magistrate hath not power to correct lying / uncomely jesting / choleric speaking (off which only question he might seem to have some color of occasion given by my words) I answer that in saying that the magistrate doth not commonly punish them / I neither say that either he may not / or he will not (as he doth untruly surmise) but I had regard unto the estate both of our common wealth / and of all other which I know this day / where there are for the moste parte in thes cases / no courts or judgment seats / which do once take knowledge off thes causes it being also a common principell / thar the law doth not take care of small things, as it is alleged in one of the law cases / which is reported in Kinge Henry the eight his years. And in respect that such like matters are only corrected by thes censures off the church / they are called off certain consistory matters. And therefore I refuse not only the judgment off the indifferent but off the moste enemy reader / which hath but a sparcke off equity in him: How untrue it is / that either we wringe the sword by thes words out off the magistrates hand / or suspende the drawing off yt in any respect / upon the pleasure off the eldershipp off the church.
In the 9. section pag. 6. as though the imperfection off the church were not confessed off our partes / he setteth him self to prove / that men commit faults as longe as they be in this life. Secondly to prove that the church flourisheth with us / he alledgeth that the common wealth flourisheth: whereunto forsomiche as it is with owt the compass off this treatise to medle with the recital off the breaches off the common wealth / and there are other proofs enough to convince the deformities off the church: I will make no answer / saving that he must understand that in supposing diverse crackes in the common wealth / we are so far from staining the careful watch / and painefulnes off the godly magistrate (as he surmiseth) that his faithful and godly travails are rather herebie commended / who in so sore a sickness / and amongst so many partly unfaithful / and partly unskillful physicions / hath hitherto kept life in yt.
In the 10. section / pag. 6 where he saithe / that the threatening off the Prophethe appertaineth to other realms / which refuse and persequute the gospel / and cannot belong unto ours: the discipline being as it is propounded / and offered to be proved / a parte off the gospel / must needs arm the lord against the refusers and so miche the more / as it coming into the church as into her home / is therefore more dangerouslie rejected. And where the answerer in words calleth for fruit off the gospel: In this enemitie which he hath with the discipline off the church pulling down the hedge wherewith the lords orchyarde should be false from the inuasiō of hurtefull beasts: he is as freendlie to the fruictes of the gospel / as the Easte wind is to the fruits of the earth. For the Discipline off the church being one off the moste excellentest means that the lord hath ordained / to cause the doctrine of the gospel to fructify: he is found a nourice of that barennes against which he exhorteth.
In the 11. section pag. 7. he hath broken his bridell again / and in leuing the matter in hand / he run̄eth to his old accusations / whereunto I have not to answer. That there ys no head off the church but only Christ / shall be shown in the treatise off the Archebishopp / into which question this falleth. And leste nothing should be said for answer to that which I had set down: the gloss hath here charged me / that I make more off the government then off the gospel / which is a manifest untruth / for I speak of the discipline as off a parte off the gospel / and therefore neither under / nor above the Gospel / but the Gospel. But the reason which he addeth is to be noted: for (saith he) he likeneth the estate off the church / to the wandering in the wilderness. Firste off all iff I did liken the estate off our church now destitute off the discipline / unto the estate off the church which was in the wilderness: there is wherewith that similitude is supported. For as diverse laws were given unto the Jews in Mounte Synay / the practice whereof they could not have / until they came into the lande off Canaan: even so the doctrine off the Gospel / cannot have the full practice / unless yt have thereunto joined the discipline. But to cut off all occasion off cavilling / iff I had not fallen upon them that seek yt / I expressed wherein the bringīg in of the discipline should have been like the cōduction of the people into Canaan: not in that yt is ether better / or not so good as the doctrine off the gospel: but in this / that as then the people had their full deliverance / when they came into that lande: so we by this addition off Discipline to the doctrine off the gospel / together with a whole and entier deliverance out off the thralldom off the popish Aegyte / might have greater freedom in the city off God which is his church.
The other Cauill is off the same sort. For as I propounded the upright kings to be followed / in their whole and full reformacions: so those which halted I set before / to the intent they should be avoided / in that their reformaciōs were not through / and therefore where a reformacion is not full / although the want be not in the same point in which they were behind: yet therein yt resembleth thē / that as they / so this is imperfect. Beside that it is untrue that all those kings / which I said to have carried the mark and spot off their imperfection / suffered manifest Idolatry / as it appeareth in the example off king Asa. Unto the next section I answer nothing.
To the 13. sect. pag. 9.
GEinge the church off Christ gathered among the Jews / and S. Peter him self were ignorant off one of the greatest mysteries off Christianity / concerning the manner off the calling off the Gentillee: yt owght not to seme strange unto us / iff those famous Martyrs were ignorant / off some principal point commanded by the word off god. And iff it be replied / that this ignorance falleth not into the holy order off the martyrs off Christ / and that the lord leueth not those which are witnesses unto death / in ignorance off any such necessary pointe: Cyprian and Justin Martyr / (whereof besides other smaller errors the one held / that those which were baptized by the heretics / were to be baptized again: the other was a Chiliast / and said that the faithful / should in the general resurrection line with Christ here upon earth 1000. years:) I say these two godly Martyrs are sufficient profess / that the glory off martyrdom / doth not free men from being in danger off ignorance / off some necessary doctrine commanded in the scripture. Origen (if he were as it written off him a Martyr) had so many / and so gross errors / that he had need have very favorable interpretation / to make him hold the foundation of Religion: especially iff they be his works which goo under his name.
And if it be further said / that albeit those martyrs did err in such weighty matters: yet it is to be supposed that before their deaths / they changed opinion: I say that that can be by no likelihood supposed. For then vndowtedlie they would have called back their former opinions / and not have suffered them to the hurt off the church / to have lived after theredeathe. If this be not sufficient / to show that godly Maxtyrs may remain in the ignorance of some necessary point of Religion: our own Ecclesiastical stories / do furnishe us with diverse examples off godly Martyrs / off all sortes / and all times / but especially in the beginning (when the day off the light off the Gospel / began to peep owt off that night off popish darkness wherein we were) who even in there examinations before their martyrdom / affirm the contrary off that whereof we are clearly taught in the word of God. I have not the book by me / but I well remember there mentioned of a notable man / and off the later Martyrs / which affirmeth a very gross descent off our savior Christ into hell: which is an error in one off the articles off our faith. Another granting such a Purgatory after this life as the papists do imagine / and others also diverse failing in substantial pointes of doctrine: whereby whatsoever becometh off this place off Nehemiah's / yet that is true which I set down: that both good men / and learned / and martyrs / may not only be ignorant / but also hold / the contrary off some substantial pointes off Religion. So that iff the example which I used / should not serve: yet the doctrine which I set down is true and unshaken / yea (saving only a bare denial) untouched.
And because the Answerer holdeth out the Slidinges of the moste excellent servants of god / to hide this unfaithful dealing withe the church in this resistance against the truth: he must understand that their want in these things / is so far from making his fault less / that it shall weighe so much more to his condemnation / by how much the lord hath offered the knowledge off those things unto him which (he disdainefullie reiectinge) would without all controversy have been ioyfullie embraced off those blessed Martyrs. And iff he had rather here this sentence off another then off me: it is that which Cyprian in a certain Epistle writeth / where all this is confirmed when he saith: That if any off our predecessors either by ignorance, or by simplicity did not hold that which the Lord did by his commandment and example teache: that the Lord would forgive that simplicity: But unto us (saith he) which are admonished & instructed, there is no such pardon left.
And although he now whiteth there tombs withe a few faierr words: yet it is to be feared / that iff they were alive / and should but a little touche his bile: all the learning and godliness they had / should not be able to harness thē frō those darts of his tongue / which others have felt. And it shall appear I doubt not or ever we have done / whether he bear that reverence / which he pretendeth / when I shall have shown / that the principal pointes which are debated between us / and which he is so looth to forgoo / be clear and manifest assertions / partly off the eldest and moste auncientest professors off the gospel / and partly off the moste famous / learned martyrs in this our land: I say whē these things shall be shown it shall be discovered: whether this price which he seteth of there judgment / hath risen of their excellency in virtue / and learnīg / or rather of that cause which I have before observed.
In the allegation off the place of Nehemiah's / if I would follow the answers train / I need not retracte any thing. For I could allege / upon that that both before and after there is rehearsed the same story which was spoken off in Ezra / the feast off tabernacles is like to be all one / spoken off in Ezra / and in Nehemiah: howbeit because there are reasons which lead me to think otherwise: I willingly confess that the story of the celebration of the feast of tabernacles in the third of Ezra / maketh against that I said / of not holdinge that feast so many years. But I deny that the answerer in all this great triumph / either doth or can lose my hold off that place / whereby I confirmed the continuance off so many years in omittinge that / which owght to have been done by the commandment of god. For notwithstanding the feast were celebrated: yet it cannot be shown / that it was kept in such sort as it owght / with boothes made of certain leaves / and bowghes commanded in the law. And that the words off the book of Nehemiah's / which affirm that the childrē of Israel had not done so frō the time / &c: are not referred only to the joy which was great in that feast / but unto the kepinge of it with bowghes •• in times past omited / there is this likelihood: that the story showeth / how they had celebrated the first day off the feast without any off those bowghes prescribed / and that the second day of the feast / hearing the law read which commanded those bowghes / they corrected their error werupon im̄ediatelie follow these words of the book that the childrē of Israel had not done so, frō the time of Joshua the son̄e of Nū, whereby appeareth that there was a general ignorance of the man̄er of solemnizing that feast / even in Ezra the high priest / whose expertnes and knowledge in the law off god / together with a fervent zeal to seek the lord / is so highly commonded off the holy ghost. And iff the Hebrew conjunction Vau, which followeth immediately / be taken in the proper signification: the words off the text will not suffer that word (So) to be referred to any other thing / then to the omitting off that commandment of the lord / by the space of so many years as I have assigned. so that unless I will yealde him this place willingly: he is not able withe any force of reason / to wring it owt of my hands.
The places off the kings and Cronicles are not like unto this: for the speeches are plain and clear there which is not so in this place / especially to that ende / that he would carry them. Where he asketh whether he should say) That I have not read the place, or do not understand yt, or willingly and wittiinglie abuse it or received it in some notes from others) let it be free to him for me to say either of them / or all off them together. But where he saith he, will say none of them / and yet in another place twenty lines after / chargeth me with the most heinous of them all that is with willful depraving off the Scriptures: except he can bring it to some figure of Rhetoric / which will be hard for him to do: it is to open an untruth / joined as it should seme / withe a great excess of envy and displeasure: the streme whereof was so strong / that it did as it were by force / carry away the truth off his promise.
Unto the 14. section.
I Onelie prove that their high estate owght not to shadow the cause in hand: I say nothing less then that men in high estate cannot have the truth: their is no syllable sounding that ways / the contrary I plainly affirm / that many off the Nobility and gentrie / are Zelous and Religiouse. To what ende therefore these places owt off Isaiah / Gwalther / Bullinger to prove a thing not only not denied / but plainly afmed? For iff he think Master Bullingers sentence doth hinder / that the saying off S. Paul to the Corinth. cannot be understanded of these times: he is greatly abused / considering that the reason which the Apostle there useth / which is that no flesh should glory in the sight off God / reacheth to the whole estate of the kingdom of Christ / and is not proper to that time. And when Master Bullinger saith that it came to pass especially in that time / he excludeth not the times that follow.
Whereas he saithe the simple and plain meaning of the text to be / that god in his electiō to eternal life / hath neither respect to learning / nobility / riches or any such thing: he do the manifestly corrupt the sentence off the Apostle / and the whole process off his diputation. for the apostle going about to maintain / the naked simplicity off the preaching off the word of god / against those that would have the word preached in the swelling words off man's eloquence: amongst other reasons useth this / that the lord useth for the most part other means to do his / then the wisdom off men would choose to do their matters. And therefore that the simple kind off preaching / without all pomp and bravery off speech / might semelesse strange: he showeth the same to come to pass in the calling off god / in which he taketh the moste unlikely in man's judgment / and passeth by those that the wisdom of man would sonest take. And albeit it be to another ende / this sentence off S. Paul is the same in effect with that off S. James: that god chooseth the poor in the world riche in faith. Now although it be true / that god hath not respect to riches / or poverty / nobility / or base degree in his eternal election: yet who is there so void off all judgment / that will say that the true and simple meaning off S. James in this place is / that god in his eternal election hath no regard to riches / or poverty? When he therefore reproveth them to whom he wrote for that they rejected the poor which the Lord for the most part chooseth / and made much off the riche / which he for the moste part rejecteth.
Saint Paul therefore showeth not only what came to pass in those times: but what for the moste part cometh / and shall come to pass / unto the worlds ende in the Kingdom of Christ: even that he had before learned of our savior Christ / that the poor as those that are afflicted / and cast down withe the sense off their miseries / oftentimes do gladlier receive the gospel. Neither followeth it herevpō that the riche and noble are shut owt off the kingdom off God / or that riches off them selves make men less apt to the kingdom off heaven / seeing Abraham the father off the believers was riche: or else that the riche sometime goo not before the poor in receiving off the gospel: which we read to have come to pass in Beroe / and Thessalonique / and which sometimes cometh to pass not only in one city / but in a whole realm / that the nobility embrace the gospel / and the baser sort despise yt. But this I say which also the Apostle meaneth / that the common and most usual calling off God / resteth in more off the porer then off the richer sort: that the riche and noble that have received that benefit of this holy calling / may learn thereby the better to esteem the treasure they have / and the faster to hold y • . But I fear lest in confuting his absurdity / I become almost as absurd as he.
Yow allow nothing which maketh against yow / and that yow may say true all Scriptures be they never so plain / must be falsified. The place off the Cronicles in the 29. chapter / is no collection / but the plain and manifest words off the Scripture / and so clear that it was not possible to have had clerer words. For after that the holy ghost had said / that the Levites the priests brethren / had helped them until the work were done / and until the priests had sanctified them selves / he addeth the reason 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 that is, for the Levites were more upright in heart in sanctifyinge them selves then the priests. And here the faith of the Answerer which he useth with his reader is to be observed. Which having one only translation to meintaine him self / against a manifest truth of the scripture / hath followed that / and left not only the truth of the Hebrew / but all other translations both of the greek (whereof the old interpretour is nothing else but a translator) and of the latin Munster / Pagnine / Leo Judah / Castalio and other translations in other languages / which I am persuaded with one full consent / have amended the error off the vulgar translatiō in latin. and yet he is not ashamed to say / that some trāslatiō seemeth to insinuate sone such thing as I have set down / in steed that he should have said: all translations the old only excepted / so expound it: he speaketh as though someone translation only had so turned. And in steed that he should have said they plainly and clerelie declare it / he saith that yt seemeth in some translation to insinuate: and where he should have said / the same thing that I have set down he saith some such thing. And on the other side when he speaketh of the translation Which serveth his humor. He saith / That if credit may be given to those which be notable learned men, speaking in the plural number / as though there were a number / that had so translated it: when beside the old translator / he is not able to show so much as one. For where he saith that Pellicane translateth those words / &c. he is a-abused: for they are the words off the old translator / and not off Pellicane / who never set forth any translation. I grant that Pellicane being deceived by the old interpretor so expoundeth it: but what is that against so manifest both light of the text / and consent off all other learned men / which all with one consent refuse the old trāslatiō as that which doth opē violence unto the truth: so that I persuade myself that even the very papists / as the monk Isiodorus Clarius / hath in this point reformed the old trāslator. And it is a mere fable / that the Levites could be sanctified easlier / or in shorter time then the priests: neither is their any such thing in all the law of Moses. For as touching the corporal pollutions / that happened unto men by touching of things which the law counted unclean and common or off what other means soever men were made unmeet / to come either into the congregation of God / or other society of men: the purgation and clensinge according to the kind off pollution / was the same and in the same time / not only unto the priests and Levites but also unto the common people / and this answer is manifestly overthrown by the words off the text. for in that there were some priests sanctified as well as the Levites: it proveth manifestly that the cause off stay was not in the time that the ceremony off sanctifing required / for then that should have also stayed the rest off the priests.
And where he saith Surelie the very circunstance off the place doth prove that sense to be true: there can no words be sufficient to declare this boldness. For where the holy ghost doth assign the cause off the fewnes off the priests in the work off the lord / in plain words for that the Levites were more upright in heart to sanctify thē selves then the priests: he would make us believe that the cause of their fewnes in that work was that which he hath imagined: whereof there is not a letter in the scripture. For that there were to few priests to fleay the sacrifices I grant: that the Levites helped the priests until other priests were sanctified / I likewise grant: but that the cause off this fewnes was either the want off number off those which were in the order and degree of priesthood / or for that more time was bestowed in sanctifying the priests then the Levites (which he imagineth) I deny / and against his imaginatiō oppose the manifest words of the holy ghost.
In the place also off the 30. of the Chronicles / it is manifest that the people were more earnest / then either the priests or the Levites. And although the answerer have here neither corrupt translation / nor untrue exposition / nor patch off reason to set against it: yet he will not yield him self to the truth. The holy ghost declaring the readiness off the people off Judah / in assembling them selves so spedilie / and withe so general a consent / and their zeal in breaking down the monuments of Idolatry / first at Jerusalem (as appeareth both in the last verse of the 29. chapter / and in the verse going before this place) and afterward in the whole contrie off Judah (as appeareth in the beginning off the next chapter) iff he had said nothing else yet it might have been gathered. But when he addeth immediately after he had spoken off the readiness / and zeal off the people / that the Levites and the priests were ashamed: Iff this be not the cause / I would gladly learn of the answerer what should be. And the Rabbins although they often times wringe the words off the text / to cover the shame off their nation / and especially off those which were in public charge: yet durst never attempt to strive against such light off words as be here: but in both those places off the Cronicles / confess the faults off their priests and Levites. And one of thē in this place giveth this reason / why the priests and Levites deferred their sanctifying of them to the work of the lord / namely for that they could not believe that king Hezekiah ment good faith and therefore held of and stood aloufe / because they suspected that the king would return to his fathers train of Idolatry / as it cometh often to pass in those that serve the time / which wait upon what side the wind will turn.
And that owght not to seme so strange a thing unto the answerer / considering that beside this place / there is example off this untowardness of the priests / and Levites in respect off the people in another place / for when king Artaf hasta had given leave unto the Jews to return unto Jerusalem / for the advancement off the service off God with Ezra: it appeareth that there were of all sortes off men which willingly accompanied Ezra in his iorneye / but of the the Levites either priests / or which were simply Levites / there was not found one / until such time as Ezra was fain to use his authority which the king had granted him for the causing of them to come.
Unto the three next sections being reproaches / I answer not / for it is unworthy to be answered / which he speaketh off contrariety with my self / because I acknowledge the Bishops my superiors / which would have equality off the ministry.
To the next pag. i3. I answer.
IT is not enough for yow to corrupt the holy scripture sentence by sentence / but yow must also overthrow at once the meaning of three whole chapters together. seemeth it a small thing in your eyes to confound things diverse / but yow must mingle those which are clean contrary. For S. Paul doth not in the eight / ninthe / and tenth chapters speak against those which strine about outward things / but quite contrary disputeth against those which meinteined the free use off all outward things without exception: not against the spiced conscience off some weak brethren / that made scruple off things where was none / but against the senseless conscience of those / which under pretence off liberty off outward things / gave occasion of dangerous falls unto the weaker brethrē / and which considering only what was in the own nature lawful / had no regard to the circumstances off place and persons / wheryvpō he showeth things otherwise in them selves lawful / to be through circumstances as touching the use unlawful. And especially in the tenth chapter he confuteth the very self same reason / which the A. towieth so roundlie with in this place: which was / that for so much as the eatinge at the Idolles feast / was but an outward thing / and went no farther then to the belly: therefore it was indifferent to be used or left at a man's discretion. So the place (then the which their is none stronger in the whole body off the Scripture / to bind and keep in the lauishe use off Christian liberty) that the A callendgeth for the enlarging of it betonde the bounds that God hath set in his word.
And whereas he saith that S. Paul declareth their contentions which separate them selves from the church for external things: S. Paul maketh no mention there either off contention or division from the church / neither in deed they which abused then their liberty contended withe the weaker / but contemned them. Also off deviding them selves from the church in that place is not a word / who soever will read those places with a little diligence / shall easily perceive that this is the matter which the Apostle giveth owt in that place. As touching external things for which the church of Christ may not contend / they are such as (there being no commandment of God directly to use them or not to use them) are left in the discretion of the faithful to be ordered the most to God's glory and edifying one off another: therefore as I think termed off learned writers external / for that they come not unto the conscience / nor bind not yt. For otherwise that difference off external and internal things / is not sufficient to give to understand / which are things indifferent / or vnindifferent. For neither are all external things left to our discretion / as I have shown: and there are some internal things / as off certain inward thowghtes and opinions which are not imputed unto us for sin / whether side soever we think or judge of them. As if I think in myself that there was never such a Hector / or Achilles / or troye as is described off Homere and virgill / I sin not: and if I think there was / neither is that imputed unto me for sin. But these things which be in controversy seeing we offer to prove them commanded / and necessary by the word off God: how cometh it to pass that yow lashe owt so many places owt off Bullinger / and Zwingli against those / which trouble the church for indifferent things: as though yow had already got̄ that which yow confess by and by to be in trial: that these things which we demand are not necessary? What order of judgment is this / first to give judgment or ever the cause be heard? iff yow will needs be both party and Judge / at least yow should have saved these until yow have as yow promised shown the untruth off our cause. And therefore hereafter as often as yow do importunatelie and vnstill fully heap so many places together: yow shall have for answer • plain blank.
To the 16. sect. pa. 14.
WHether yow have either scripture or godly learned author for your warrant in your assertions / partly hath been already shown / and more shall appear. But yow must learn that the part of a faithful teacher in the church of god / is neither to propound anything to the church / neither to reject that which is propounded by other / off credit off any godly / learned / zealous man. And although this be to much / yet that which he writethe in the 200. pag. is to far owt of all square. Wher he affirmeth that the argument off authority / whether owt off the Scriptures / or owt off the interpretors off the Scripturrs / is the best reason that can be brought in divinity. To both I will answer here in the beginning that the reader may have wherewithe he may beware / and know how to estenie both his and our proofs. And first of all seeing the Apostle teacheth Timothy / that the Scripture inspired by the holy ghost / is the only rule for the minister (which he calleth the man off god) either to establish or overthrow whatsoever may fall in question in the church: And S. Peter saith that who soever speaketh in the church must speak as the words of god: And seeing all the godly zealous learned men in the world are not able to authorise or displace any doctrine in the church without the word of god: I leave it to be considered how daūgerouslye he maintaineth his answer to be good for that it hath ground either of the word of god / or the judgment of some godly iearned man / and let it be waied whether this be to set up another Doctor in the church then Moses or our savior Christ.
Touchinge that the authority off the Scripture in divine matters owght to prevail / I willingly grant: but that the argument off the authority of men which have interpreted the Scriptures / is the best reason in controversies off divinity / but off the Papists (whose strongest towers are in the testimonies off the Doctors) was never hard off. And though there be nothing more Papistical then this assertion: yet the doctor holding the name and profession of the gospel / may to the utter subversion off it / cause this to be printed and fly abroad. And that the authority off learned men should be the best proof in divine matters / hath more absurdities in yt / then yt hath words. For first their authority is here set in the same rank withe the authority off the Scripture / in that / as the authority off the Scripturr / so it also / is set in the superlative degree off the best proof Then their authority being preferred unto all reasons / is preferred unto the reasons drawn owt off the Scripture: which in every divinity cause almost / besides the authority are diverse: drawn off the causes and off the effects / &c. Thirdly yt ys absurd / to perferr the authority of any man (which ys only his bare affirmation) unto his one reason and discourse. And seeing the ende off proofs in controversies off diuinitye / is that faith may be engendered in minds / which only can be grounded on the word off God: what a miserable / yea what • cursed faith shall that be / that is hanged off the authorit •• off men: which be they never so learned / yet are they (because they be men) Liars / such as deceive / and be deceived.
And whereas he saithe that an Argument off authority hath another weight in our profession / then yt hath in human sciences: I confess it hath so / iff the authority off the Scripture be considered: But as for the authority off men / for the which cause he alledgeth this / y • is far otherwise. For if the authority off man in human sciences / and in men's matters / be off small force: off how how much less force owght yt to be in God's matters? yt is clean contrary therefore to that the D. saith. For although that Kind off argument off the authority off men / is Good neither in human / nor divine science: yet it hath some small force in human sciences: for as much as naturally / and in that he is a man / he may come to some rypenes off Judgment in those sciences. Which in divine maters hath no force at all / as off him which naturally and as he is a man / can no more Judge off them / then a blind man off colors. Yea so far is it from drawing credit if it be barelie spoken without reason and testimony off Scripture: that it carrieth also a suspicion off untruth / whatsoever proceeded from him / which the Apostle did well note when to signify a thing corruptlie spoken / and against the truth / he saith: that it is spoken according unto man: he saith not as a wicked or lying man / but symplie as a man. And although this corruption be reformed in many: yet forsomuch as in whom the knowledge of the truth is most advanced / there remaineth both ignorance / and disordered affections (whereof either / turneth him from speaking off the truth) no man's authority withe the church especially / and those that are called and persuaded off the authority off the word off God / can bring any assurance unto the conscience. So that iff all that the D. affirmeth were true (as it is untrue): and iff all those authorities which are alleged were faithfully / and according to the meaning off the writers cited (as they are almost all writhen / and falsified) yet being for the most part / upholden by the bare authority and credit off men / they can give no rest to any Christian conscience which shall lean upon them.
And iff he say / that those men have not spoken without reason and warrant off the word of god: then besides that he is greatly to blame / that bringeth not the reasons which moved them to think so / and whereupon as upon certain pillars that sentence might stand: it falleth owt still against him that the argument off authority hath no force: as that which hath no credit off it self / but as altogether lame is fain to borowe feet off another. And then the D. should have considered / that for so much as the reason off authority standeth for the cause and sake off another / that is to say for the argument off causes and other places: it must needs be worse then the arguments whereupon it hangeth. for that for whose cause another thing is / is better thē the thing which dependeth upon it. And thereby further followeth that forsomuch as reason without authority is good / and authority without reason nothing worth: that those arguments which are grounded upon reasons / are better then those which are grounded upon authority. And whereas peradventure he will seek some color of defense off his absurd speech / in the words which he addeth (of such learned men as do rightly interpret the scripture:) that addition as it taketh not away from the absurdity: so it addeth to the folie and impropretie of speech. For besides that he taketh that for granted / which is the question / that is to say whether it be rightly interpreted or noo: he should have understanded that the rightnes of the interpretation / depēdeath not upon the authority of the man / or in that such a godly or learned man did so interpret it: but in that the place is expounded agreablie unto the suite of the text.
And that the D. which under the name off ancient authority would oppress the truth / may understand that even in this magnifiyng of authority / he is not so good a scholar o • disciple off his pretended masters: of diverse sentences off the fathers them selves (whereby some have likened them unto brute beasts without reason / which suffer themselves to be led by the judgment and authority off others: some have preferred the judgment of one simple rude mā alleging reason / unto companies off learned men) I will content my self at this time with two or three sentences. Irenaeus saith / Whatsoever is to be shown in the scripture: cannot be shown but of the scriptures thē selves. 3. l. 12. c. Iero. saith: No man be he never so holy or eloquent hath any authority after the Apostles. Augustine saith: that he will believe none how godly and learned so ever he be unless he confirm his sentence by the scriptures or by some reason not contrary to them. And in another place / hear this the Lord saith, hear not this Donatus saithe, Rogatus saithe, Vicentius saith, Hilarius, saith, Ambrose saith, Augustine saithe, but hearken to this the Lord saithe.
And again having to do withe an Arian / affirmeth: that neither he owght to bring forth the council off Niece, nor the other the council of Arimin, thereby to btinge prejudice eche to other: neither owght the Arian to be holden by the authority off the one, nor him self by the authority of the other: but by the scriptures which are witnesses proper to neither, but common ro both, matter with matter, cause with cause, reason with reason owght to be debated. And in another place against Petiliane the donatian heretic he saith: Let not these words be heatd between us, I Saye: yow Saye: let us hear this, Thus saithe the lord, and by and by speaking off the scriptures he saithe there let us seek the church, there let us try the cause Here yt is manifest that the argument of authority off man affirmatively is nothing worth / which the answerer notwithstanding maketh so great accounts off: likewise that reason which is not directly against the truth is preferred to authority which the A. denieth. and if Augustine thought that in a matter off controversy the authority off so many godly and learned fathers as were assembled at that Council off Nece interpeting the scriptures rightly / owght not to be alleged not only to condemn and convince / but not so much as to prejudice an heresy long agoo condemned: iff he would have the truth tried by the scripture only: let all men judge how evil a folower off Augustine the D. is / which in the authority of one or two men layeth so great weight / that he thinketh that kind off proof to be the best proof off his and overthrow off his adversaries cause. And iff at any time it happened unto him (as it did against the Donatists▪ and others) to allege the authority off the ancient fathers which had been before him: yet that was not done before be had laid a sure foundation off his cause in the scriptures / and that also being provoked by the adversaries off the truth / who bare themselves high off some Council / or off some man off name that had favored their parte. And therefore iff the A. would salve this with the example off Augustine in other places: yet for that he never in any cause layeth any foundation / either of any scripture or color of scripture: and being provoked flieth still from it / as from the rock and sandes o his cause: it is clear that if he had that authority which he pretendeth untruly on his side: yet the use off it in this sort / were both by the rule off the word off god / and example off the ancient fathers altogether unlawful. And so the estimation which yow have off the learned may easily appear unto all men / to be as they make for yow / or against yow: so that when they make for yow they are as sharp of sight as Egles: afterward when they are against yow they see no more then Iayes.
Yow give me adresse unto the wisest / godliest / and best learned emongest the Ecclesiastical order / to know off them whether they think with yow: but your address is very uncertain: for those are not always peradventure best learned to me that are to yow / and iff yow mean those which at there ease do not unwillingly behold yow in this wrestle for the crown of ease and honor (whereof they may be peradventure some) I may yet have Good cause to doubt / whether they be off that judgment with yow / or at least whether they would oppugn this cause as yow do. for albeit they be content to take some fruit off your labor: yet it followeth not always that they would do the like them selves. Yow know that there are some which will receive that which is taken by others / that would not venture them selves to take yt: and Jerome writeth some where: that faults even confessed please oftentimes.
Unto the three next sections
THat your counsel unto the reader off lookinge before he leap is Good: only I admonish that he look by the candell light off the word off God. For that off allteringe our Judgment yt cometh after to be answered pag. 45. Unto that which followeth in the 16. 17. 18. 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. I will answer nothing / saving that for the proof off that which I have set down and he denieth touching the advantage taken by the faults off the printer: I refer the reader to the corrections in the ende of the admonition. And where he denieth that the admonition quoted any places for the phrase off speech / and not the proof off matter: to goo no further / I refer him to the first page / where the 7. and 11. off S. Matthew are noted for the phrase / and can by no means be drawn whether he would draw them.
To the 27. sect. pag. 24.
WHere he accuseth me that I answer not to this sectione in the next line I answer to it: for confessinge it to be a fallation / and showing afterward how untruly it is objected / what more could I answer?
To the 28. pag. 25:
HEre M. D. sekinge busilie to hide his nakedness / findeth not so much as a fig leaf to cover his shame with all. Na in sekinge a hole to hide it in he hath met with a hill to show it further of. He accusethe me of dishonesty / that I have falsified his words in saying that he affirmeth it To be a thing indifferent to come to the communion clothed or naked for that he hath not used this word (indifferent). yow bind me very straight iff yow will let me use no other words then yow / that which yow said in many words I uttered in one. I refuse not to be counted dishonest / iff I have deferred in sense from yow. For whether that be a thing indifferent or no / which is neither commanded in the scripture nor by necessary collection may be gathered thereof: I leave it to the Judgment off all those / which have learned that the scripture is a perfect rule off all things public or private necessary to be done off a Christian man: which thing also after is more at large declared. And where the gloss saith / that the proof owt off S. Paul that it is no indifferent thing For men to come either clothed or naked is superfluous: I marvel that he seeth not that it is directly against that he setteth down which is / that it cannot be shown owt of the scripture either by plain words or by necessary collection, that men and women owght not to come naked unto the communion. yt was peradventure more then he would have had / but his absurd assertion required it. After he saith he knoweth it is necessary to comeliness / that a man or woman come clothed: but he denieth it to be particularly expressed in the scriptures▪ as though this were all one withe that which he set down before / and that there were no difference between these saiynges: yt is not commanded in the scriptures, nor can by no necessary collection be gathered off them, with this it is not particularly expressed in the scriptures. And to help to cleanse M. D. Master Ridley a singulier learned man and constant martir of Christ must be defiled withe this gross error. Who although being a mā might well err: yet it is incredible that a man of his learning and godliness / could fall in so plain a way as this. Therefore / unless it be made to appear / I cannot believe that ever he wrote so and iff he did / I am sure he is well content that as stubble it should pass through the fire.
Wher yow ask why I toke that example and left the rest: I gave yow the reason for that the other came to be spoken off more properly in another place / and that was only found there: besides that they are far off another sort then this. Now let me ask yow: why yow placed that with the rest / seeing yow confess these in other places to be things indifferent / and at the order off the church: and here deny that yow propounded this as a thing indifferent. iff yow grant the other to be indifferent / and deny this to be so / yow did evil in couplinge them together which were not matches: if yow say they are all off one sort / and confess that the other be indifferent then I have truly reported your judgment / in saying that yow hold this also as a thing indifferent.
The like cavil unto this / is that he chargeth me as though I had falsified his saying / for that I put in stead of his word Argument fallation. I would know off him whether when he findeth fault withe the arguments off the Admonition, he mean to find fault withe true Arguments or false. iff (as needs must) he answer false arguments: I say that there is no difference between a false argument and a fallation, saving that the word fallation is more proper / and the other word in this signification is used 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , or (as I may term it) abused: for in deed a false argument argueth nothing: and therefore is no argument / no more then a peinted man is a man. And where he saithe that I am not ignorant that there are many false arguments / which be not amongst the fallations: and further askethe to what fallation this and that is referred: albeit I could show his ignorance in them / especially in the two last / yet because that were to draw the reader to moo questions and those altogether impertinent unto this matter / I will stop up this head / and put yow in remembrance / that if all were granted yow that yow demand / yet your fault remainethe still. For I noted your unskillfulness / in that yow setting down certain arguments which yow referred to the fallation off Secundum qui • , afterwards make the arguments off authority negatively, and negatives by comparison, two several kind off arguments from the first / which notwithstanding are not diverse / but contained under the former place. And that we walk not altogether in the clouds from the understanding off the simpler / yt is all one as if a man should say / there are three sortes off English men / one sowthren / the other Bentishe / the third Middlesex. If Master Crammer never used such Logic / such a personage hath great injury to be compelled to communicate withe this absurdity: for it nothing helpeth yow that he used this manner off speech off Negatiues by comparison, unless that yow show that he maketh them a several kind from those off Secundum quid. And when M. D. is not afraid to offer thes unto the taste off the learned men / he askethe me whether I blush not trifle in this sort. The truth is: I am ashamed to have tarried so longe in so small a matter / and iff yow had charged me withē ignorance only / and not with falsifiyng your words / I would (I assure yow) have let yow gone withal: and I will promise yow from henceforth what occasion so ever yow give this ways / (except it be manifestly joined with defense off the cause) yow shall do yt without answer. Where he complainethe off want off answer in the next section / he doth me wrong / seeing I referred him to another place for answer. To the next section I have answered.
To the next sect. pag. 28.
IFF this sentence (he that is a good and a modest preacher will not disdain as well to be taught as teach) be not an idle vagabonde / and broken loose from all his follows: then it must needs be a reason off that wherein yow said before / that yow knew no man so well learned, but yt might become him to read and learn Master Nowellles Catechism and the Argument is as I have gathered it. For yow to prove that yt becometh the authors off the admonition to learn that Catechism / add that the place off Timothy / doth not forbid to learn. And again a Modest preacher will not disdain to be taught. So that this is your argument / A modest preacher must be taught / therefore he must learn that Catechism / and therefore must be enjoined to learn yt. And iff yow say that yow set yt down to show / that no man is so well learned but he may learn still / or to show that the place off Saint Paul doth not forbid to learn: I ask to what purpose? Considering that the authors off the admonition / do not deny that a Minister owght to learn: but that yt is unmeet for a Mynister to be enjoined to learn Cathechismes. And as for all the arguments which the D. gatherethe himself owt off this place / they are so many witnesses against him / that he fowght with his own shadow. For where he still concludethe they may read Cathechismes / he concludeth that which the admonition denieth not: but that which the admonition denieth to be meet / (which is to drive a minister to learn Cathechismes) he never concludeth. Yt shall be therefore at your own choice / whether yow will have that your argument that I have framed / or else that yow have not spoken to the matter.
Unto the 32: sect: pag: 28:
IN orators I grant it is a great point off art / to hide art / that it appear not: but when a man setteth him self to confute / the opener and plainer way hath always been most commendable. So that iff this were your order / yt had been good that yow had set up some mark by a transition / whereby we might have understanded yt. I know not what happened unto others / but I confess I saw no such order. I see this / which also is true in your former answers / that in going about to heal one wound / yow give yourself another. for going about to put from yow the absurdity off this argument / yow confess that yow bestow great labor to prove that / which was not in controversy between the admonition and yow: the other shall be seen in there places.
To the next section answer shall be made in the place whereunto he referreth us. For the next unto that: I answer that this is a vain shift / the advantage whereof he cannot take to excuse his folie. For this reason which he here alledgeth / he had cited owt off Master Bucer / and Master Martyr / page 258 / and immediately after in the page. 239. he pretendeth that he will bring other reasons / besides this to prove that the surplis doth edify: and therefore beginneth a fresh withe furthermore, and then addeth Secondly, whereas iff it be true which he here alledgeth / in his pretence off going further / he standeth still and removeth not an ynche. For the next unto that / I say as I said before / and refer it to the judgment of the reader / whether I have not only not corrupted your meaning / but almost conceived mine argument in the same words which yow use. And where yow so boudlie (in asking) affirm that capp gown and tippet used in popery are good signs / for that they are signs of good things / namely off the ministers off the word: I shown how untrue that rule is in the 57. and 60. pages / against which if yow have any thing to say / yow shall there understand further.
To the next pag. 30.
MD. taketh it for a thing assured / that the authors of the adminitiō in saying that those that first authorised the book of common prayer / were studious off peace / and buildinge off the church / meant that they were so / in collectinge and authorisinge that book: for why else saithe he should they speak of them? I answer that they had good occasion to say so / to meet withe slanderous tongues / which for the mislikinge off some things donne by them / are ready to charge them as though they condemned the men / or misliked off all things they did. And although that be granted which he presumeth upon / yet the fault off the argument remaineth the same it did. for though they were studious off peace and buildinge the church in so doing: yt might well be that they toke not the best way to peace / and propounding them selves a good ende / chose not the best means of coming thereunto. And for this purpose (iff I be not deceived) in our Ecclesiastical story off king Edwards times / it is set forth / how upon. suit made by the Emperor / that the lady Marie which then was / might for her self have the exercise off the mass: M. Crammer / and Master Ridley / and I know not who moo / became suitors to the kings majesty / that the request off the Emperor might take place. I doubt not but those good men / were studious off the peace and buldinge off the church in this request / and propounded that for their ende: and yet king Edward that resisted their request / was neither puller down off the church / nor disturber off the peace / but pleased god / and left a notable example to all posterity off Kings and Queens / that they should not for any respect of kindred / league / or allie / suffer any such pollution in their lands.
The same also might be fall unto them in gathering off the book / for it may well be / that there purpose was / by that tempere off popish ceremonies with the gospel / partly the easilier to draw the papists to the gospel / (whilst fearing that they would not frame them selves to yt yt should be some what framed unto them) partly to redeem peace thereby / the breach whereof they feared might have ensued off such a perfect and through change / as the sincerity off the gospel required. If this were there purpose they were studious of peace and buildinge of the church / but yet erred in the mean: so it appeareth / that it being granted which the A. demandeth / yet my gathering off his argument is justified.
To the 37. sect. pag. 30.
WHie should yow note here that Cyprians place was abused by the Papists? yt is besides your purpose / and contrary to the law to leave your match withe whom your are collered / and take yow to a stander by. For so vnhappelie is it come to pass / that the papists / (whose disorders and corruption off the discipline off Christ were here oppugned) have found yow their champion to fight for them / whilst they look on. And to what ende seruethe this headless arrow / not shott / but picked owt against the Papists? They are (god be praised) substantially convinced off the corruption off this place off Cyprian / by diverse learned men: so that this bare affirmation / that Cyprian speakethe not off the usurped authority off the Bishopp off Rome, besides yt is owt off season / doth rather move laughter / and confirm the enemy in his obstinacy / then give him remedy against his error. But what weighethe this word (for) in our language / is it not a causal / and rendereth a reason off that which goethe before? Which yow have therefore by all lykelihoode left owt / that this poor shift might have some color. the rest is answered before. Unto the next I answer / that yt shall appear when I come to that place / whether there be such reasons or no.
In the next sectiō he chargeth me in great words withe untruth / and askethe me where I find in the • 3. page this argument / that by that there was one offeuerie congregation / he prouethe that there was one over a whole province. To whom I answer that in that he concludethe an Archebishopp over a province / upon Ignatius places which speak off a Bishop in every church he maketh: the same argument which I have made.
To the next page 32. being bare denials and false accusations / I answer not
Unto the next sect. pag. 33.
LEauing his untrue accusations / I answer / that where he saithe that the case off Luther and Zwingli off Circumcision and preaching unto gentilles / which I alleged are not like / for that they be substantial pointes of religion / and these be not: it is his old cuckoes song. For we offer to prove this also off the substance off Religion. And I brought the examples only to show / that to be untrue which he goethe about to persuade / that all those which contend where the gospel is preached / are to be holden for disturbers. Thother difference which he placeth in that Luther and Zwingli did that which they did in strininge about the Sacrament / by consent off their several magistrates: although he doth not make that appear: yet I ask him what Zwingli / &c. should have done / iff the Magistrate would not have suffered him to answer: should he have suffered the truth to be destitute off his defense? Where he citeth owt off Zwingli that the gospel is a sword to devide the faithful, and therefore that this doctrine which hath made a division in the church cannot be good: I answer that although he might well say it to the Anabaptists / and that yt so comethe to pass for the most parte: yet that can be no general rule / considering that the preaching that circumcision was not necessary / although it divided those off the church which believed it from those that did not believe it:: yet those which did not believe it / did not there fore cease to be off the church / and off the number off the faithful.
The Sermon which our Savior Christ had amongst his disciples / and those that believed in him touching that his flesh was the true meat / and his blood the true drink / which who soever did not eat and drink could not have life in him / did make such a cut amongst the Disciples / that all (saving twelve) departed from our Savior Christ. If they made a full departure and Apostasy / it is evident that the gospel cureth even those which be in the church clean from it: if they did not utterly forsake the gospel / but offended at that sermon were not as before daily followers off our savior Christ: yet it is clear that that doctrine of the gospel / did make apartition between the twelve / and those other which went there ways / in that they believed that sermon / which the other did not / they were taught / and the other offended. Wherupon it followeth / that ether the doctrine which our Savior Christ preached / was not the truth: or else the truth may sometimes / devide the faithful amongst themselves.
I could cite diverse other examples both owt off the Acts off the Apostles / and owt off S. John: but these shall suffice to show the vanity off M. D. reason. And iff he will say that iff he err / M. Zwingli errethe withe him: he is vecelie unworthy the name off a Deuine / that carethe not how often he fallethe / so he may fall withe company. Howbeit I have shown howe M. Zwingli saying may be upholden / and yet make nothing for the confirmation off that which he would prove.
To the next. pa. 36.
IT fareth withe M. D. as withe malefactors: which having left something behind them whereby they may be known / for fear off that which followeth / renounce it utterly to be theirs. But that the conclusion off all thes articles is as I have set down / that is to say / that the authors off the admonition are either Anabaptists / or in the way to Anabaptism (albeit he here deny yt:) I report me to the conscience off all those that shall read him. And let his words be considered / which be that Anabaptiisme is almost plainly professed in the admonition, and so be judged whether I have truly gathered his meaning yea or no. I have spoken so plainly in that the Answerer maketh so strange / and weroff he requireth more open speech / that I cannot speak plainlier. I use the words which are worn in all schools and writers which have occasion to speak off these matters: I gave that which I said light by examples. Notwithstandinge he cannot see / how the Ministry off England may be commonly and for the moste parte unlawful / and not right / and yet some found which either may have there calling according to the word off god / diverse from that which is commonly used: or else (the lawful calling by the church ceasing) have it by an immediate calling from God. Iff M. D. will be so ignorant / as not to know how these two may stand together: let him be ignorant: if he delight in his blindness / what should he do with a guide.
After he saith my distinction is not good off lawful and ordinary: for that whatsoever is lawful in a church established, the same is ordinary, and for proof hereoff he addeth that common reason teacheth it: but what is that common reason / it had been good yow had set it down. This is a simple confutatiō which yow use / to prove that in an established church / lawful and ordinary are all one. And iff I should reply and say / that the distinction is good / and that common reason teacheth so: if I light off as favorable a reader as yow / my proof will be as good as yours▪ but this is but to abuse the time / and to delude the world. And it is the more intolerable / that yow are not content to have said it once without proof / unless it be also quoted in the margent / as though we could not without some great damage / want this high saying. And where yowe make common reason the judge hereoff (although she be an evil scholemistris oftentimes in these cases) yet she teacheth here plainly against yow. For iff a man will consider it in natural things / yt is evident in the birthe off children / that something is lawful / which is not ordinary. It is nor ordinary for a woman to bring forth three or four children at once / and yet it is lawful. And if this common reason be considered also in political things: there it shall appear likewise / that things are lawful in a well governed and established common wealth / which are not ordina • rie As if order be taken that none shall clime the walls of the city / and the citizens climinge the wall upon the sodeine coming off the enemy / drive him back: no mā can deny but this act is lawful / and yet it is clear / that it is not ordinary / being otherwise (but in such a case as this) punishable.
But let these goo / and let us see how this oracle agreeth withe the word off god. And first iff by a church established / yow mean a church which hath one uniform order grounded owt off the word off god: yow take that for granted which is the controversy / for we deny that the church off England is so established. But iff yow understand by a church established / a church of god wherein (with other things well donne) the corruptions which are in yt / are by common consent off those which rule the church / agreed upon: it is manifest that in such a church / there hath been a calling lawful / which was not ordinary. For before the coming off our Savior Christ / it is confessed that there was amangest the Jews (and in Ierusalē especially) a church of god established / the ordinary ministries off the priests and Levites used / th • prescribed sacrifices offered / the law read and taught: the corruptions of the church were not the several opinions of particular persons / but the uniform decrees off those which had the government. And yet there the lord raised up Simeon / and John Baptist / whose vocations being extraordinary / were notwithstanding lawful. And that there be no hole for M. D. to hide his boldness off casting forth whatsoever taketh him first in the head: it is to be shown that in the moste orderlie established churches off god / and moste purelie reformed according to the word of god / there have been ministers lawful / and yet not ordinary.
In the wilderness the church under the conduite off Moses and Aaron / was for the outward face exactlie governed according to the rule that god had given thereof: and yet we read off the 72. upon whom the spirit of Prophesy fell / which was no ordinary calling / as that which endured but for a time as the words of the text (howsoever they be otherwise translated) do declare / which saith / that they added not to prophesy anymore. When was the church better established according to the rule off the word of god / then in David's time? and yet then (besides himself) there were diverse extraordinary ministers. For there was the Prophet Nathā / and Gad / withe others not off the Levitical order / which only was the ordinary calling off the church. In the new Testament the church off Antioch / ceased not after it was established / to have the extraordinary function off Prophets. And onless. M. D. will say / that all these functions were unlawful: he must confess that in an established church / ordinary and lawful are not all one. And albeit in these times where there is a church established according to the word off god / the lord doth not use to raise up any such extraordinary ministry / neither is it to be looked for: yet yt is a thing which may come to pass / and which hath nothing in the word off god to the contrary. In stead of that yow say Iff any church in England do elect there minister otherwise then the laws off the church doth permit, it cannot be excused off schism: yow should have said / otherwise then the word off god doth permit. For iff it be shown that that order established be corrupt / and the other which they followed in the calling off their minister according to the word of god: then they need not to be afraid off the slander off schism. And where yow say such and such parishes must be looked unto, verily they need not therein be ashamed who look upon them. But If ear the look yow mean is / to put owt their eye in taking away the Minister / that they should be the less hable to look unto your vnfaith full dealing withe the churches off God. Yow understand not yow say what I mean, when I say that the choice off the Minister by the church is such, as the examples off the scripture do show to have been before the Eldershipp and government off the church be established. I know in deed these things before have been vnhearde off by yow / whose ignorance the church must rue. And now when yow are told it in so plain words / as I nothing doubt but a child off nine years old doth understand yt: yow cannot yet comprehend it. Yt was the practice off the Pharisees against our Savior Christ / when they had nothing to answer / to charge him that he spake not plainly / but propounded things dowbtfully that men could not tell where to have him. For they come unto him and say / how longe doest thow hold us in suspense? Iff thow be Christ tell us plainly: as though he had not told them plainly before. This Pharisaical practice the D. useth against me diverse times / gropinge at noon days / and complaining that I am not plain and open enough / and going about to make men believe / that I have some thing that I would not have men understand. And although he confess he understand it not / yet he reprehendeth it / and so it cometh to him which S. Jude chargethe the false teachers withe in his time / that he speaketh evil off that he knoweth not. He asketh here for examples / and they stick still in his throat unswallowed and undigested / which the admonition gave him: when he hath overcome those / then let him ask for more examples. And whereas he ascribethe as a great absurdity to us / that we make the order off chusinge the minister before the eldershipp and government be established, somewhat diverse from that which is before, putting this florishe upon it: that we allow off all things owt off order though against our own order, so it be against common order: I will not goo about to confute that here / or to show what good cause there is off this diversity (it being sufficiently declared in that book / which together withe the right form off government commanded owt off the word off god / notethe the disorders off our church) only I will ask M. D. whether the consecration (as it is called) off the Archbishops and Bishopps at the first entry off the Queens majesty / was the same altogether withe that which hath been sithens. And iff there were a difference between that and this: then in this great desire off his to stricke he care not how / nor after What sort / his struck is fallen upon him self / and upon those whom he undertaketh to defend.
That the words off the admonition have not that sense which is here ascribed unto yt / I have shown in the proper place: neither will I touche it here / although the A. set it twenty times before me. If he have anything to say against that which I have said / there it shall be considered. Althoughe here the D. was taken evē in the very act of false coyninge: yet he shameth not to deny yt / and withe that bloudnes and foreheade / that he is ready also to accuse him that taketh him withe the manner. He biddeth me peruse more diligently the words off M. Bullingar. I have perused them / and set them down / first in latin and then in English: and iff I have not turned them truly / show wherein I have faulted: and iff they be truly turned / then I demand again / where these words be found in any of those leaves of Bullinger which yow quote / That they could not teache truly because they had great livings? Yow say they be word for word there, show but the same sense or meaning / that is to say that this off M. Bullingers that the Anabaptists said they could not teache the truth which had any living, is all one withe that which yow have set down / that they cannot teache the truth which have great livings. And iff yow cannot show it: your falsification remaineth increased withe the open facing of an untruth. In deed if yow can put owt all men eyes / and take away frō us our senses / and all light off grammar / and off the knowledge off signification and propriety off words: it will not be impossible for yow withe such confident speeches as yow use / to make us believe that all is turned upside down / and that the earth hangeth over our heads / and the heavens are underneath our feet. but yow deceive yourself / if yow think that yowe can bear down the truth so / or that yow can hide falsehood by adding another unto yt / whereby it is made bigger and more easy to be seen then before.
The place added owt off M. Zwingli Ecclesiastes / maketh nothing to the saluinge off your falsehood: and how far our men (as it pleasethe yow to call them) are far from all such sayings / I have before declared. If yow show as yow say that I do give to little unto the magistrate / I will confess my fault and confess my felse detter unto yow for yt. As for the cleanelines off my terms which I use / they are not so foul as the things whereunto they are applied / and the prophet Malachi and S. Paul used them in honester matters then these are: so that iff the phrase off the Apostles and Prophets be mannerly enough / there is less godliness in yow / which in me houe thus accused them off inciuilitie. Unto the next section pag. 40. I answer not.
To the 44. sect. pag. 41. I grant the corruptions off the church of England to be such / that man in absteininge from the pollutions thereof / owght not so sever him self from those open assemblies / wherein the eternal word off the Lord God is preached and the Sacraments administered / although not in that purity which they owght to be. But I say again / that the name off conventicles is to light and contēptuous for those meetīges. For here in is to be considered for what cause they departed. Which was not for the mis likinge off any thing which Christ ordained / but through the mislike off that which Antichrist had brought in: not as the Anabaptists did / and the D. surmiseth they did / for that they judged them selves pure and others impure / but that they feared that their presence where such corruptions were / should be allowance or confirmation off them: not so much forth hatred off the estate / off the church off England / as forth love that they had to a better: nor so much for the hatred off the Ministers which were unjustly set over them / as for the love off those which were unlawfully by the Bishops taken from them. Thedorete declareth how the Catholics which maintained the faith of the Nicenc council / through affectiō to their teachers / divided and severed them selves into several cōpains: will the. A. faie that all their meetings were conventicles? iff he do / he speakethe far otherwise off them then Theodorete: and yet that division continued 86. years.
And iff this be off no authority with yow / yet I would gladly understand / what yow will answer to the sentence off M. Calvin / which yow have alleged yourself pag. • 1. where he saithe: This honor is meet to be givē to the word off god and to the Sacraments, that wheresoerver we see the word off God truly preached, and the Sacraments without superstition Ministred: there we may conclude without all controversy the church to be. Iff this meeting withe some disorder be the church off god / how is it a conuenticle? Besides that it ought to have been considered off yow / whether they continued in that division / and whether being taught and shown their error / they did obstinatelie persevere: according to which circunstance that off Augustine owght to be expounded / for not everyone which departethe for any cause whatsoever from that which is the church off God / by and by is to be accounted no member of the church. For seeing that heresy is more heinous then a schism / and yet heresy doth not cut a man from the church / unless he remain obstinate: much less can a schism cause forthwith him that faulteth that ways / to be no menbre off the church. S. Paul found greater schisms in the church off Corinth then those were: and yet he rebuked them withe another spirit then yow use: neiter doth he cut them of from the church / but in the spirit off mildness restoreth them. And iff yow had learned that yow ought not to break a bruised reed nor quench the smoking flax: yow would have dealt otherwise then yow do.
If so be that the church of England were reformed (as yow would bear us in hand) and the Bishops by casting owt off their ministers owt off their churches / had not given the occasion of such departure: the departure had been more intolerable / And therefore as much as yow add to the amplisyinge of their fault: so much yow increase off the sin̄e of the bishops / which without just cause / gave occasion of that division There is great difference between the preaching off the Anabaptists and heretics / and the preaching off those brethren. for the Anabaptists and other heretics preachings be with the upholding off their false opinions / and doctrine contrary to Scripture werwith yow are not able to charge them in the least pointe: but that in all doctrine which yow preach truly they preach the same withe yow. And where yow say Disiuncrely that oftentimes the word of god is preached amongst the Anabaptists and heretics, or the Sacraments administered: in those congregations which yow make Anabaptists / or like unto them / both the word was preached and the Sacraments Ministred together. And therefore if yow did purposely put that (Or) rather then and: then whilst yow wrote / your conscience offered yow a manifest difference between the Anabaptists and those brethren. And iff yow did not put yt purposely / but mean that in the conventicles off the Anabaptists and heretics both the word off god is preached / and his sacraments administered speaking so precisely: I would gladly know off yow what difference yow make between the conventicles of the Anabaptists and heretics / and the church off God / seeing that the preaching off the word and ministering off the sacraments are the infallible notes thereof. Ind this ought to have given yow occasion off a softer word / if yow had not been driven by the tempeste of your affection / rather then led by any quiet and stayed judgment off the truth. Because it is your old wont / and either yowe cannot or will not prove or improve your sayings by the word off god: I will not stand to note how that upon Augustine's word only / without any proof owt off the word off god / yow have here cut a number from the church. if yow bind so hard / and lock so fast: yow should have brought the bond and Keye off the word off god / that the conscience (which only looketh unto the word off god) seeing it self in that danger / might be careful to seek how to be delivered. The gloss and the Text vary here. For the one (in saying that it standeth me good name upon, to bring them owt which are free will men and hold consubstanstantiation seemeth to deny that there be any such: The other by saying that thenre are not so many, and that they are not justified: do the indirectlie confess it. And if yt were not confessed / the thing is so notorious / that albeit I name them not / yet I need not to fear the supition off untruth / in that which hath so many witnesses. And where yow say there are not so many off them as off those whom yow most falsely and slander ouslie call puritans: As I rejoice therein in the behalffe off the church off England / so it standeth not by any diligence / good foresight / or discipline off yours / that the church swarmeth not with them / seeing they are suffered to have the highest places in the church / where (with the leuaine off their false doctrine) they may sour not one town / as it were three pecks: but whole shires / as it were a whole heap / or fat / or other off the largest measures off the lords meal in our country. And so although they be not by words maintained: yet they are in deed not only maintained / but also by such sufferance in those places rewarded. Unto the nine next sections I answer nothing.
In the last section 45. pag. unto the places off Saint Paul (whereby I prove that yt is no breach off true Christianity to alter in judgment) he answereth / that the Apostles meaning is not that men should be daily altering their judgment, and broaching new opinions, which is no answer to the question. For although we may not daily broche new opinions: yet we owght to correct our old errors / as often as we are made understand them. So that unless he will say / that those which believe the gospel are without the danger off error / in things pertaining to the government off the church / &c. or that when they know their errors they should not amende them (booth which are absurd): it must needs follow / that he goeth about to abuse the reader / which upon that we have changed Judgment / would draw us into the suspicion off lightness and inconstancy. And seeing the church off England changed the book of common prayer twice or thrice / after yt had received the knowledge of the gospel / and always corrected some thing off that which yt held for good before: either the answerer must condemn those alterations as childish and unconstant / or else he must confess that a whole church lightened with the knowledge off the gospel / and established in a certain order off government / may without fear off suspicion off that līghtenes which he doth surmise / displace the former order and place another. Unto the 4. next I answer nothing / saving that where the gloss chargeth me with contrariety: I desire the reader to consider what contraririe or what color off contraritie there is / between thes sayings / the church cannot longe continue without common wealths, and the church may be established without a Christian magistrate. If I had said that the church might be established witheowt a magistrate: then there had been some likelihood off the contrarietye he surmyseth. But he should understand / as longe as their be magistrates / although they be not only unchristian / but Tyrannicall and persequuting: yet the blessing which the lord giveth unto his own ordinance / so overcometh all their malice: that there ceaseth not come even from that disordered government / some thing to the preservation of the church. The answer which his gloss asketh for / touching churlishe answering (although yt deserved none) is page 177. and he could not be ignorant / but I referred him in the answer / to the seventh article.
Unto the first parte off the last Section page 47. I answer nothing. For answer unto the later parte touching the place of Timothy (whereby he would prove that men may offer them selves to the ministry) I will refer the reder to the treactise off the discipline off • he church lately set forth / where this is answered at large. Unto the four next sections I answer nothing / saving that where in the seconde sec • pa. 5 • he saith that master Calvin in his book against the Anabaptists affirmethe / that the church as touching the external policy cannot be perfect: I do assure my self that (as in other places) so here / he hath untruly said off Master Calvin. And yt cannot b • unknown but in Moses and the Apostle •• times / there was a perfect patrū of the outward gouernernment off the churches / both given off the lord and received off the churches. neither can there be any parte of the outward government off the church / assigned by the answerer / which draweth any such impossibility withe yt as he imagineth. And iff he say / that there were faults committed against those perfect patrons: that is not to the purpose. For the faults off particular persons do no more overthrow the perfection off the government which was received: then the faults off the officers in our church against the laws thereof / are to be imputed unto the laws them selves whereby that government standeth. And as for the examples off the churches off Corinth and Galatia which he alledgeth: they rather make against him. For that disorder which the Apostle chargeth them withe / being a slyding back / and falling away from that estate wherein they were first off all set by the Apostle: argueth that there was a time / when the contrary off those disorders had place in their churches.
In the next section he alledgeth diverse examples to prove / that enemies one withe another conspire against the truth, which no man do which / and where I shown that the churches frīdes / may do some things which some of the churches enemies do / against him (which in that the admonitors do certain things with the Papist and Anabaptists / would give to understand / that they are conspired with thē): he answerethe that the admonitors conspire withe the enemies off the church in things which are against the church, which is a manifest begging off that which is in controversy. Towching that which I said he hath taught / that there is no commandment in the scripture to put heretics to death: although he deny that ever he did so: yet beside that he maintaineth the same in the seconde treatise (where he leaveth yt in the liberty off the magistrate whether he will do yt or no / and rejecteth all the laws off God provided in that behalf as Iewis he: there be moo witnesses off this / then his bare denial is hable to bear down. to whose knowledge I will so report me in this behalf / that if they confirm not the same: I refuse not to bear the blame off that report. where he saith there is no cause that he should be better thought of emonge the papists, which teache and practice the contrary: although the Papists abuse this doctrine to the horrible murder off the church / yet the doctrine is the doctrine off god / and not the Papists: and yow by staying the course off yt / nourish them to the day off slawghter / and shedding off the blood off the saints off god / which is their feast / and which they so greatly delight in / and longe after. In althat which followeth unto the first tractate / which beginneeth page 62. there is nothing worth the answer. And as for that whole tractate / because yt pertaineth to the question off lordeshipp / and dominion off the Archebishopps over the bishops / and off the Bishopps over the rest off the Ministers: yt shall be referred to the beginning off the 8. Tractate / where the answerer shall receive his reply
What authority the church hath in making off orders.
Chapter 1. pag. 77.
THe plaster wherewith the answerer would heal his unskillfulness in the expounding off tolerating in the church. by these words placing in the church, will not clean. For to let pas the meanig off the admonition (which he should have shown iff he maintain his answer by yt / and not as he doth (contrary to all law of disputation) bid me prove that their meaning was not so as he supposeth) I say to let that pas: yt appeareth by bis plain words / that this exposition was not framed in regard off the meaning off the admonition / but for that he knew not what difference there was between placinge in the church, and tolerating in the church. For himself confesseth that this is the principal ground of their book / that those things only should be placed in the church / which the lord himself in his word comēaundethe. and ascribing this judgment unto them he afterward expoundeth / that to be as much as if they should have said: that nothing should be tolerated, &c. if this be their principal ground that nothing be placed, &c, (as the A. confessethe:) and placing in the church is not the same that tolerating in the church (as he doth also confess:) yt must follow that the principal ground off the admonition / was not (as he saithe) that nothing should be tolerated in the church not commanded by the word. And his words do discharge the admonition off any such assertion. For in that he saithe / that their meaning was (so far as he could gather) that nothing should be placed, &c. yt is manifest that in saying now that they mente that nothing should be tolerated, &c. he chargeth them farther / then he was then hable to gather off their book.
Afterwarde he chargethe me / withe an unadvised and a popish assertion / for that I say: that many things are commanded in the scripture which are not expressed in yt. He needed not to have travailed far / to have seen how far I am from popery in in this pointe: iff he would have but considered / the words which follow in the same division: that god hath set before us in his word, a perfect patron off his church. But I was at lease overseen in this kind off speech. Alas iff he would understand his grammar / and acknowledge that which simple scholars off the gram̄er school do well know / that their is difference between expressed and contained, between expressed and included, between expressed and implied, between expressed and gathered: He would never have troubled the reader with such folies. And as for that which I set down / I did yt upon Good grounds. For who is there which knoweth not / that thes things / that there is one essence and three persons in the godheade / that there is in our Savior Christ one parson and two natures: are not expressed / but only contained in the word off God?
And iff proof must be had off things (which is to great shame for one that cariethe the title off a divine to be ignorant off) let the answerer know / that learned divines speak afte this sort / Their words be thes. Off the father, of the Son, and holy ghost, there is one nature one essence and three persons: In Christ our lord there be two natures and one person, and many other things which the catholic church doth receive, rather laid out by the interpretation off the Scriptures / then expressed in the words off the Scripture. Here the answerer may learn / that certain off the cheiff pillars off our Religion / by the Judgment off this council are not expressed in the word off God / and yet notwithstanding both contained in the word off God / and commanded to be believed.
And where he saithe that he coūntethe that expressed in the scripture when yt is either in manifest words contained, or thereof gathe red by necessary collection: I answer / that I suppose / that there was never writer / holy nor profane / that ever spake so: and that yt byddethe defiance both to de vinitie / and humanity / being forged (as yt is to be feared) contrary to his own knowledge / only that he might give some color unto that absurdytie / which he would so gladly fasten on me. I say that it is against his own knowledge: forasmuch as in his former book / and even in the next division / (which is in the 78 / page off this his later book) he confessethe this difference off being expressed in the word / and gathered off it / which is the same in effect which I have said. For he saithe that nothing owght to be tolerated in the church' &c. unless yt be expressly contained in the word off god or may manifestly thereof be gathered. Here he plainly opposeth as member off one division / expressly contained, and manifestly gathered: now in this later book clean contrarily / he maketh gathered to be a part of expressed. And in another place off his former book / (as it appeareth in the 24. page off his book) he saithe: and none off these circumstances are commanded in the scripture, or by necessary collection thereof may be gathered. Where he supposeth some thing necessary to salvation / which is not commanded / namely which may be necessarylie gathered of the scripture. And iff those words commanded in the scriptures (which are general) will not contain all that which is necessary (as his division teacheth:) how much les will thes words / expressed in the scriptures, compass them? and iff commanded and forbidden be all one with expressed (as he here affirmeth): then did he absurdely to make gathered off the scriptures / to be an opposite member unto commanded. That which I said off the argument off authority off a man / to be neither good affirmatively / nor negatively / farther then to induce thereader into somelikinge / or mislikinge / and not to have force to compel: is apparaunt unto all which have any sparcke of judgment. That which is broug • out off Aristotle / is to no purpose: and it maketh also against the A. Forasmuche as where Aristotle saithe / that credit is to be given to him that is cunninge: he speaketh off things / which have a likelihood / and may be disputed off on both sydes: and not of things / which are to be received without gainsaying. And I marvel that the A. will not see / that amongst men / the cunningest in any profession / have in diverse things been off those which followed them justly found fauls with. And if he will both stick to Aristotle / and interpret • him as he doth / that a man ought to believe everyone, in that as to and profession where in he is conninge: then every learned Deuine in his profession / is to be believed whatsoever he saithe. Which being absurd / and seeing it hath been before shown / that an argument of the authority of mā affirmatively is not good: let us hold that for so much as mā / cannot come (through his infirmity) unto the perfectiō of any thing / (which reason being assigned of me / is untouched of the A.) and forasmuch as the gifts off god / are given in measure / and not in perfection: that an argument off • he authority off man / cannot enforcevs / and that it is proper unto the Aposties / and Prophets / whom the Lord had chosen to be his notaries / and whose hands he helds continually / to be without the hazarde off error.
To the places which I alleged out off the word off god / to prove that an argument drawn of the authority off the scripture negatively / is good: he answereth / that the examples which I bring / be of things of great importance / and forbidden in other places of the Scripture. I grant they are so / and that maketh much against him: for that the Lord having this advantage against the Israelites / off charginge them that they had done contrary unto his commandment / chose rather to say after this sort / that they had done that which he had not commanded, thereby to teache his to hange upon his mowthe. And the answerer owght to have considered / that the reason is general which the prophets use: which otherwise should be no reason at all. And it may be shown / that the same manner off argument / hath been used in things which are not off the substance off salvation or damnation / and whereof there was no commandment to the contrary. In Joshua / the children of Israel are charged by the Prophet / that they asked not counsel off the mouthe off the lord / when they entered into covenant with the Gabeonites: and yet that covenant was not made contrary unto any comēaundemēt of god. For howsoever yt seemeth to some / that upon the words off Moses / they owght to have been put to death / being of those nations which dwelte in the inheritance off the people off god: yet iff yt be considered what the causes were / why they might not enter in to league with them (which was / lest they dwellinge amongst them should draw them to a false worship of god:) yt will not be hard to understand / but that withe condition off yielding themselves / both to the subjection of the Jews / and to their institution in the Religion of god (as thes did) they might be received.
There was in deed difference between these nations / which dwelled in the lande off the inheritance off the children of Israel / and which dwelt round about them. For where the Jews might make league with the nations round about them / without any their submission unto Religion: they could not do so with the Canaanites / &c. And where in other nations after peace refused / the children off Israel having taken a city / owght to keep a live women and children in these ether resistinge them / or not submitting themselves unto the service of god / it was not lawful to spare ether wemē or children. But that it was simply unlawful for thē / to make league with them with any condition / I think yt cannot be shown. for thē Joshua and the princes should have done evil / to have kept their oath with them / after they had understanded their frawde / cosidering that all oaths made against the comēaundement of god / are to be brokē. And if it be said / that Joshua and the princes did evil in keeping their oath: the approbation off that fact is apparent in another place / where the vengeance for the lord / fell upon all Israel by famyn / and upon the housse off Saul particularly / by executing those off his family: because the gabeonites / had been (contrary to the tenure of the oath made with thē) put to death. And unless this be admitted / we shall be compelled to condemn the spies / which entered into league with Rachab the Harlot: and Salomō / which received the Amorytes / that voluntaryly yielded thē selves unto his obedience / and withal unto the obedience off the lord / as it may appear in the books off Ezra / and Nehemiah's: where their posterity (which are there called the sons off the servants of Solomon) having of old time / grow ne into one body off the church off god withe the children of Israel: join them • elues with thē in the restoring of the temple. Whereupon the A. may understand / that the Scripture reasonethe negatively against the Israelites / in a thing whereof there was no commandment to the contrary.
Moreover we read / that when David had taken this counsel / to build a temple unto the lord: albeit the lord had revealed before in his word / that there should be such a standing place / where the ark off the couenante / and the service off god should have a certain abydinge: and albeit there was no word off god / which forbad David to build the temple: yet the lord (with commendation off his good affection / and zeal he had to the advancement off his glory) concludeth against David his resolution to build the temple with this reason: namely / that he had given no commandment off this / who should build yt.
Where he would ground this answer / upon the words off Zwingli: yt is manifest that Zwingli reproveth the Anabaptists / not for reasoning negatively off the authority off the scripture / but that they reasoned negatively off an act / or an example. And there is great difference between them that say / it is no contained / or it cannot be concluded off any place in the scripture: therefore yt is unlawful / and between the Anabaptists / which reason that therefore the baptism off children is unlawful because it is not found in the Scriptures / that the Apostles did babtize any children. Whereas iff they had reasoned thus / that the baptism off young children was unlawful / forasmuch as yt was not commanded in the scriptures: although the ground off their reason had been false: yet their conclusion had been fast and sure. And therefore iff the answerer would have delte trewly / he should not have fathered this answer of Zwingli / which hath no such thing) but off the Papists whose proper defense this is against those / which manifie the sufficiency of the word off God / as that which giveth men address / unto all things which are to be done.
Master Harding reprochethe the Bishopp off Salusbery / with this kind off reasoning / which the answerer obiectethe against us so often / unto whom the Bishopp answereth. The Atgument Master Hearding meanethe and not very plainly uttereth is the argument off authority negatively: which is taken to be good, whensoever proof is taken off godds word and is used not only by us, but also by many of the catholic fathers. And there alledgeth how Saint Paul in the 3. Gal. dispureth negatively off the authority off the scripture / for that the Apostle upon the words off Moses in thy seed and not seades, concludeth that our savior Christ was understanded. likewise he show the how Origin / reasoneth after the same sort. And a little after / showeth the reason why the argument off authority off of the scripture negatiuelie / is good / namely / for that the word off God is perfect. In another place unto Master Harding casting him in the teethe / with the negative Arguments: he alledgeth places out of Irenaeus / Chrysostom / Loo / which reasoned negatively of the authority of the scripture The places which he alledgeth / be very full / and plain in generality / without any such restraincte as the A. imagineth / as they are there to be seen.
Whereas he saithe / that the reason that God could give a perfect patron off the church / therefore he hath so done / doth no more follow then in there all presence off the Sacrament: he doth but trifle withe his reader. For I reason not off the bare power off God / but have joined his will with his power. For my words be / that the Lord determining to set before our eyes a perfect form off his church, is both hable to do yt, and hath done yt. Where yt is euidente unto all men / that I ground my reason not only off the ability off the lord / but upon his determination: not only off that which he could do / but off that he hath done.
Division 2. pag. 79.
VNto that wherein he was touched / for his unskillfulness in dividing / in that both matters off government / and matters of faith (which he divideth / and by dividing opposethe) meet so frendlie together in the government of the Pope: he answerthe not. And yet having nothing to answer / he findeth him self the talk / of a whole sheet of paper. For first off all / how ridiculous ys it that he saithe / he did not put a case but an example? Then / whether perteines it / that he settethe down / what the Papists say off the pope, what the pope doth himself? That also which he affirmethe in so good earnest / that no government owght to be received / direcly against the word off God: that he repeatethe / and repeateth again / his negative argument of the popes supremacy: are they not all strey spreaches / fraied owt of there wits / carrying not the weight of a fether / to the proof off any thing in controversy: having no knot / either with the cause / or one of them with another?
Likewise the distinctions off Ceremonies / and government / off substantial and accidental / of external and spiritual / are altogether unprofitable / brought to avoid his apparent ignorance in dividing. Likewise his dalying in his questions what government I mean (which is apparent in the discourse off all our books off booth sydes) also his groping at none days / by questions what it mente by matters necessary to salvation, which is expressed off me in the very next diusiō / and again in the third chap. 2 division. Afterwarde / when he setteth him self to prove / that there is no one find off government certain and invariable in the church: let yt be observed / how loosely and childishelie he doth yt. For beside the first reason / which is a begging of that which is in questiō and the later reason / drawn of the authority of master Gwalier whereof he can have no advantage / unless (with master Gwalter) he will affirm that excommunication is not necessary / nor yet convenient under a Christien magistrate: all the rest of his authorities / drawn out of M. Calvin / the heluetian confession / Bullinger / are quite beside the cause. For they are to prove / that there may be a church without excommunication. As though the question were / what things the church (of those which be prescribed by the word off God) may want / and yet be the church of god: and not / what things yt owght to have by the prescripte of the word off God. Or as though the question were / how sick the church might be / and yet live: how meimed / and yet not slain: and not what are the means / which the lord hath appointed / for a whole and wholesome constitution off the body of the church. And iff excommunication or the one form off government were not necessary for the church / because the church which wanteth them / may be the church: by the same reason a man may say / that the holy sacrament of the supper of the lord / is not necessary for the church: seeing that in that company / where the word of god is only preached and received / there is the church off god. And hereof also the practice is to be seen in some places / where the magistrate (according to the churches / the preaching off the word off god) for certain occasisions / will not accord / the ministering off the supper. Last off all / M. Beza showing the true marks of the church / addeth to the two former / the discipline framed according to the word / con. 5. 7. so that whatsoever necessity cometh unto the word and Sacraments in that they are notes / the same cometh also to the discipline by M. Beza's Judgment. Where he quarrelleth with me / as though I had concluded off particulars only: beside that he owght to know / that man may conclude a particular / either affirmatively or negatively in any figure / not only off particulars but off singulars: he must understand / that a particular instance overthroweth him / which opposeth matter of ceremonies / and government / unto matters off faith / and salvation / generally and without exception. His accusation against me (for calling the holy Sacraments ceremonies) considering that kind off speech / is received amongst the divines / and I had no further occasion to speak off them / then to show they were ceremonies: is utterly unworthy any answer.
To the third Division pag. 81. The Answerer broileth things together off the infinite mercy off god / and of repentance in a moment / of his unsearchable judgments / having neither head nor foot in his talk. And although he would seme to say somewhat against me: yet in deed he confirmeth that which I have set down. For when he saithe / that the doctrine of free will being damnable of it self / doth not prejudice the mercy off God. iff he mean that the merry off God embraceth him that being infected with that error / doth by no especial repentance call it back (as that which is unknown unto him:) then he fully agreethe with me. Iff he mean that upon special repentance / and change off mind in that pointe / he obtain mercy: he speaketh truly / but to no purpose off that matter which we have in hand.
Therefore to bring some light unto those things / which the A. withe his disorder / darkeneth: it is to be understanded / that first off all every transgression off the law / be it never so little off it self and in the own nature / is damnable. Secondly it is to be observed / that no sin unto those which are through faith grafted into the body of Christ / can bring damnation: as also without faith (I speak off those which have understanding) there is none which bringeth not certain death / the mercy off god (although never so infinite) being shut up against all unbelievers. Which I therefore add / because the D. speaketh so confusedlie off the infiniteness off God's mercy. In the third place / it must be seen / what faults utterly destroy the faith which is in Christ. For it is clear / that those that do not pull up the roots / and rase the foundations of faith: can by no means shut the kingdom of heaven / against those which are infected with them: althowg he they do never come to the knowledge off them. Wherein I think that no man off any Judgment / will deny that errors not in the hearers only / but also in the teachers / may be such as do not destroy the foundation. And this thing may be easily shown / by diverse places off scripture / where this distinction off errors (which destroy the foundations / and which do not: which hold the head / and which do not: which are deadly / and which are not:) may be easily gathered.
It remaineth only to see / whether the erorr off free will be amongst them which do not rase the foundations (as I have alleged) or no. And when as one which maintaineth free will / may hold the free remission off sins in the grace off god / and likewise hold / that that grace is shown unto him for Christ's sake (these being the growndes off our salvation) it must needs follow / that free will doth not rase the foundations. For there is no necessity / that he who saithe that the spirit off God / by the new birthe hath given him power to die to sin / and to live unto righteousness: should also affirm / that it is given him off merit. In the opinion that S. Peter had of his own strength and ability to die for Christ / entangled (as it may seem) with ignorance off this pointe off Religion / touching the bondage off man's will: he ceased not therefore / to have a true and iustifyinge faith in the son off God / whereunto our savior Christ himself had given testimony. And if their were not sufficient hold in this example off Peter / against the A: yet in the greek doctors / and some also off the latin / (as in Jerome especially / which did not by one act or two as Peter / but by arguments and open sayings / declare there liking of free will) this is manifest. for dare the. A. say / of all thē that they believed not the free remission off syn̄es For Jesus Christ's sake / or held not the foundation of religion / all that time that they taught in the church of god / and held that opinion? And if he grant that they had faith: then I conclude that even then / when they held free will / they held the foundations. which is not so in the example off beleuinge / that the mass is a sacrifice for the quick and the dead / which he unskillfully comparethe withe this error off free will: considering that that over throweth / and turnethe upside down the material cause off our salvation / which is the sacrifice off the son off god / that he once forever in his own person / offered for the sins off the world. And therefore that error cannot be / in any in whom there is faith.
I brought three reasons off comparison / to prove that the word off god is a rule to square out / whatsoever thing is to be done in the orderinge off the church: and the A. in calling them bare words / hath made a quick dispatche off them / saving that his marginal note / doth keep the wont off untrue surmisinge. which upon that I compare the government / with chains and bracelets / saithe: that I account yt more pretiouse / then the doctrine. As iff the apparel which clothethe the nakedness / were not always more necessary / and sometime also more precious / then those jewels. And if I had not this defense: yet if I had fallen upon an adversary which had not been disposed to trifle / the law off comparisons / (which exacteth not likelihood in all things / but only in that where in the cōparisō is made) would have cleared this margin.
To the Division 4. pag. 84. The Admonition said / that nothing ought to be established in the church, which is not commanded by the word off God: the A offended hewith / condemned this saying: the reply showeth / how the saying of the A. is maintenable / namely for that though there be not express words for every thing / which may be established: yet there are general commandments / whereby all things which can fall into any Ecclesiastical consultation / are to be directed. The A. (to maintain his sodeine / and unadvised condemnation) saithe: that in those things which are varied by time / and other circumstances / and whereof there is no precise determination in the word off god: yt is enough that they be not against the word of God. So that this is the difference between the Adm. and him: they will have those things not only not to be against the word / but to be grounded upon the word: and he saiethe / it is enough they be not against the word. Wherein iff there were no diversity / the Ans. is in fault: which in his greediness off findinge fault / condemneth that in the Adm. which he is constrained to allow off. But in deed they are not all one. For albeit it cannot be / but that which is not agreeable unto the word off God / is against the word off God: and off the other side / that which is not against the word off God / is agreeable unto yt: yet he that so saithe / that certain things must be done not against the word / that he will not also accord / that they should be done according to the word: gyuethe thereby to understand / that there is some star or light off reason / or learning or other help / whereby some act may be well done / and acceptably unto God / in which the word off God was shut out / and not called to counsel: as that which either could not / or need not / give any direction in that behalf. Now in this later boocke / and in this division he saithe: that nothing ought to be done in the church, but according to the true meaning off the word. And afterward saithe / that he agreethe unto this sentence off mine: that in making orders, and ceremonies off the church, it is not lawful to do what men list: but they are bownde to follow the general rules off the scripture / that are given to be a squire / whereby those are to be squared out. And thus in the end the A. is constrained / to yield him self to that / which he hath before found fault with. for if nothing may be done in making orders off the church / but according to the general rules off the scripture / and those general rules be commandments: it folowethe / that nothing may be done in makinges orders for the church / but according to the commandment off God. Which is that which the Adm. did set down.
And whereas he would make the reader believe / that we have given back / in that we confess certain orders may be established in the church / which are not expressed in the word off God: I have shown / howe the Adm. is very untruly charged with that sentence: there being neither the same / nor the value off those words to be found in it. This therefore being agreed on off both sides: we might have here shut up these controversies / saving that the A. holdinge this doctrine in words / doth notwithstanding in deed continue the siege against it: in that all those places / which I have alleged for proof off it / he doth by shameful and open corruptions / essaye to ouerthowe.
And to the first place / which is that the wisdom of god in his word / doth teache men every good way / and therefore the way which ought to be taken in the establishement of orders / and ceremonies in the church: he asketh me in great scorn / what that maketh to the purpose? in deed to prove that which he untruly / and contrary to my plain words / in his answer to all my arguments surmiseth to be my purpose (that is / that no law ought to be made in the church / which is not expressed in the word) I say to prove this / I grant it is not sufficient: but to prove that all things owght to be done in the church / not only not against the comēaundement / but also according to the commandment of God (which was that which I propounded / and he denied) it is more sufficient / then he is hable to answer. His answer also / which supposeth this sentence directed unto princes and magistrates (only belike in that he saithe my son) is uttered without all judgment: considering that Solomon / by that title speaketh unto all the children off god / of what calling soever they be / as it is manifest by the writer to the Hebrews.
To the next argument / grounded upon the authority off Saint Paul / (which is / nothing can be done to the glory off God / without ebedience: all things done without the Testymonye off the word off God / are without obedience: therefore nothing done without the Testymonye off the word off God / can be done to the Glory off God) to this argument / which he calleth undigested: he answereth by repetition off my words / and that Saint Paul • meaning is / that nothing be done against the word. Which how absurd an answer it is / when both that is the question / and I have expressly urged the Testimonye off the word off God to be required / let all men Judge.
The next argument / which he saithe is evil framed / is apparent. Wheresoever faith is wantinge / there is sin: in every action not commanded / faith is wantinge: therefore in every action not commanded / there is sin. To this be answereth: that the words off Saint Paul (not to be off faith) signify that we ought to do nothing / against our conscience. Which both is very absurd / and overthroweth the sense off the Apostle. For having shown / that he which doth anything doubtingly / is condemned: he assigneth immediately / this to be the reason / because he doth it not off faith. So that the Apostle calleth that done not off faith / which is done doubtingly: But he is said to do against conscience / which having his knowledge / and persuasion settled / goeth against yt.
And where he saithe / that the words going before (which are Blessed is he that condemneth not him self, in the thing which he allowethe) do prove that sense off his: it is spoken without all consideration off the place For how cometh yt to pass / that he rather referrethe these words off Saint Paul not to be off faith, to this sentence / which is farther removed: then to that off doing with doubt / which goeth immediately before / yea wherewith it is coupled in the same verse / withe a conjunction causal? And although the reason sometime be referred / unto that which goethe farther off: yet that is both rarely / and then / when by no means yt can agree withe that / wich goeth immediately before. Which cannot be here / considering especially / that it could not be unknown / but that he which doth against his conscience / sinneth / whereby the Apostle should need make any proof of it. but off him which doth a thing staggering and waueringe / there might be some doubt / whether he sinned. and therefore the Apostle having said / that he is condemned in so doing: addethe this reason / for that he doth it not of faith, which being sin / is therefore damnable.
Where he saithe / that if a man should do nothing whereof he hath not assurance by the word off God, that he doth well: that thereby should be overthrown Christian liberty in indifferent things: the fault is / in his want off understanding. For even those things that are indifferent / and may be donne / have their freedom grounded off the word off God: so that unless the word off the lord / either in general or especial words / had determined off the free use off them: there could have been no lawful use off them at all. And when he seethe / that S. Paul speaketh here off civil / private / and indifferent actions / as off eating this or that kind of meat (then the which their can be nothing more indifferent:) he might easily have seen / that the sentence off the Apostle / reacheth even to his case / off taking up a straw. For iff this rule be off indifferent things / and not off all: I would gladly know off him / what indifferent things it is given off / and off what not. And the same also I require off him in the other general rule / off doing all things to the glory off god. For iff that reach unto all indifferent things it must needs comprise also this action of his. Which iff it do / then as no man can glorify God / but by obedience / and here is no obedience / but where there is a word: it must follow / that their is a word.
And semethe it so strange a thing unto him / that a man should not take up a straw / but for some purpose / and for some good purpose? or will he not give the lord leave / to require off a Christian man / endued with the spirit off God / as much / as the heathen require off one / which is only endued with reason / that he should do nothing / whereof he hath not some ende / and that in all his doings whether public / or private / at home / or abroad / whether withe him self / or with another / he owght to have regard / whether that which he doth / be donne in duty or no? And iff the taking up off a straw / be donne to good ende / either off helping him self / or others / regard of profit / or pleasure / or what else: it hath testimony off the word off God. And if it have not an ende / and a Good ende: will not the A. give the lord leave to condemn that in his infinite wisdom / which men by the light off a little wisdom / do account foolish? or will he be so injurious to the justice off god / that he may not judge that to be sin / which they say is donne against duty? What also? that some even off those heathen men / have taught / that nothing owght to be donne / whereof thow dowbtest whether it be right or wrong. Whereby it appeareth / that even those which had no knowledge of the word off God: did see mutche of the equity of this / which the Apostle requireth of a Christiā man: and that the chiefest difference is / that where they sent men for the difference off good and evil / to the light off reason / in such things: the Apostle sendeth them / to the scoole of Christ in his word / which only is hable thorough faith / to give them assurance / and resolution in their doings.
And although to maintain his former vnaduisednes he had rather say / that men should do nothing but which they believe not to displease god, then with the godly learned to say / that they ought to do nothing / which they are not assuredly persuaded of / that it pleaseth God: yet even this / which he saith off beleuinge that it doth not displease God, I would know off him / Where he can fetch the ground off / but in the word off God. For iff he do believe / that it doeth not displease God / and belief be not but in respect of the word off god: it must follow / that he hath some word off God / which tellethe him / that that doth not displease the Lord.
And where he accusethe this doctrine / of bringing-men to dispere: he doth it wrong. For when doubtinge is the way to dispere / against which this doctrine offrethe the rēmedie it must needs be / that it bringeth comfort / and joy / to the conscience off man.
The reason which I assigned / why it is necessary to have the word off God / goo before us in all our actions (namely for that we cannot otherwise be assured / that they please God): he doth not once touche. His secōde significatiō of these words / not to be of faith, that is not to be an article of faith: if it had any grace in it / yet it is merely idle in this place / and help the no more / to the understanding of the place of Saint Paul now in hand / then smoke doth the eyes. And where in the ende he saith / that thes places do prove as much for all civil actions / as for ecclesiastical: and that I can no more prove by thes / that a certain form off discipline is appointed in the Scripture / then that every civil action is precisely commanded to be done without any change: I grant it: neither did I allege them therefore / but was driven into this disputation / only by occasion before alleged in the beginning off this division / and manifestly expressed in the next.
7. Division pag. 86.
WHere as I alleged / that in making ceremonies and orders off the church / this owght to be observed / which saint Paul requireth / that they offend none / but especially that they offend not the church off God: the first exception off the answerer is / that this rule prescribeth the duty unto private men, and not generally unto the church. As though the rule were not general / or this thing were prescribed unto them / in respect of that they were private / and not in respect off being Christians / whether private / or public: in which case that which is commaun̄ded to one • s commanded to ahor as if the Lord were so careful in private offenses / and careless in public. And iff offense ought to be taken heed off in things done without many witnesses / without all countenance off authority / and once only: how much more owght yt to be taken heed off / in the orders off the church / which have so many lookers on / so great continuance / and such force off authority to strike yt deeper in?
His seconde exception is / that by this means the orders off the church, should be subject to one or two men's liking, or misliking. which answer proceedeth off two foul an oversight / and want off understanding off the word offense, For Saint Paul by offense / doth not mean displeasure / or discontement: but that whereby / occasion is given to any / of sin and transgression off the law off God / which may as well be with allowance / as disalowance / when all are pleased with that which is done / as when they are displeased. And therefore in that signification which Saint Paul and our savior Christ before him take this word offense / the church ought to provide / that there be no offense given to one alone.
His third exception / that I added this word especially to the text, is a mere cavil. For although I used that word / more then is in the text: yet I both kept the meaning / and laid y • more open unto the simple reader. And where he sa • th / that the Apostle would have men more careful off offending those which are not yet come to the church, then those which be off yt: yt is altogether untrue / and not only against the meaning off the Apostle / but against the general rule off love: wherein thes degrees are assigned / that we (leuing all men) should especially love those / which are members off the same body with us. Whereupon yt followeth / that the fruictes off love (whereof this is one off the principal / that we • iue no occasion off offense) owght rather to be performed toward them off the church / then towards strangers. And y • being certain which S. Paul saithe / that we must do Good unto all but especially to those which are off the how should of faith: yt must needs follow off the contrary / that we owght not to do hurt unto any / but especially unto those / which are off the howshoulde off faith. And this degree doth our Savior Christ him self note / when he thundering against offenses / addethe this as an increase / and an higher step in syn̄e: if be yt done against one of those which believe in him. And where he saithe / that strangers may be so withdrawn, whereas there can be no such fear off those which are already members off the church: he speaketh both contrary to all experience / and directly contrary to the Apostle / which disputing in this case of offense / saithe that the weak brother perisheth through thes offenses.
Last off all (if he require authority) Oecumenius / a mā much liked of the answerer / thīcketh that he had an especial care / to those that be already members of the church: and Bucer hath a longe treatise / wherein he proveth / that if either the Papists / or those that are members off the church must be offended: that yt is more agreeable / to provide against the offense off the church / then off the papists.
The seconde rule he alloweth / but admittethe no competent Judges of yt / but such as made the orders: as the papists / which (alowing off the Scriptures) take them selves only able / to judge off the sense off them. And if there were but some few as he saithe / where as there are many thowsansandes / and those all private men / where there be which have charge: yet I would know of the A. whether the spirit off God / is tied so ether to multitude / or to authority: that both a few / and private / may not espy faults in the orders / which have been devised by many and public persons.
To the third rule / that all should be done unto edifying: he saithe that yt cannot be applied to all things generally used in the church, but to prayers, tongues, &c. specified in that chapter, as if it were not the ordinary of the Apostle / to prove the particulars / by the general / and so to conclude / that the exercises off praing / singinge &c. should be done to edifying / because all things must so be done. And where he would seem / to • ye the Signification / off edifying / only unto instruction in the church: yt is manifest that the Apostle / carrying yt also unto things indifferent / will have this to be the rule / off our private actions / much more off such public actions / as I have before declared. And the words which saint Paul useth / do not require / that ceremonies and orders of the church should edifye (as he surmisethe): yt is sufficient to come under this rule off the Apostle / that they tend to edifyinge: and he cannot be ignorant / that yt is one thing to build / and another thing to tend to building.
For the 4 rule / which ys that they be done to the glory of God / he will acknowledge yt to be no rule / to direct ceremonies by / because yt is a rule to guide all actions whatsoever. which ys a very strange argument / that because yt is a rule to guide all actions: therefore yt is no rule to direct the churches. And if this be a sufficient cause off refusing yt as impertinent to this purpose: then that rule (which he off thes four doth only allwe / as of that only which he him self brought) must also be judged impertinent to this purpose / and so thrust out off the doors with her follows. For there is nothing whatsoever a man doeth / whether privately or publicly in matters either civil / or Ecclesiastical: but he owght to keep this rule / that yt be done in order and in comeliness.
Where upon my words / And yet so left to the order off the church, that it do nothing against rhe rules aforesaid, he noteth that I am contrary unto myself, and contrary unto the the Adm. Why doth he note not the cōtrarietye? Are these contrary? Yt is not enough, that the orders off the church be not against the word, unless they be grounded upon the word: and this / that they are so left to the order off the church, that yt / do nothing contrary to the rules aforesaid? Declaring my mind at large before / I have in this last sentence / put less then was in the other: but there is nothing contrary. I never dissented from him in that he saith / the church may in making orders, do nothing against the word: but in this / that he by rejecting the Admonition / denieth that they ought to be cut owt according to the word and commandment off God: I both did / and do still dissent from him.
The article off the Duche church / as yt is set down off M. Beza / we do fully agree with: which is / that we owght to esteem things indifferent, by the circumstance off time, place, and person, weighed by the skoles off the word off God. There are diverse things besides in this division / that are nothing to the purpose / and unworthy any answer. And amongst others / what an intolerable mockery off the reader is yt / that where yt hath been shown / that the words off the Admonition / not commanded in the scripture, owght to be taken for that / which is either particularly / or in the general commanded: he notwithstanding saith / that peradventure we may shift yt, in saying that they meant, either generally, or particularly. Wherein in stead that he should have proved / that they meant not so: he maketh a peradventure off that / which hath been before in so many words disputed.
Division 6. pag. 89.
IN that yow wound up the lords day / withe other things which yow account merely indifferent neither set any mark in the foreheade off it / whereby we might understand that yow had any other estimation off it then off the rest: all men do see / that I had Good cause to charge yow as I did. And even now your answer which yow make / is expressly against that which yow have written before. For yow affirm that the lords day is in the number off those which not to observe / or once to call in question / is mere madness. But in your former book / after recital of the lords day / and other things which yow account indifferente: yow close up which this sentence / that there is none so simple, which vnderstandethe not, that the church hath authority in those matters. If yt be mere madness for the church not to observe the lords day: how hath the church authority in that case? And if yt may not once move question off it: how can yt take order in yt? your manner off speech / whereby yow would goo between thes two sentences / and help to set at one such manifest contrarieties / are absurd: for yow say / that the continuance off the lords day so longe, doth prove yt necessary to be observed: and yet add / that yt may be altered upon great and especial considerations. whereas if it be necessary to be observed / it may not be altered: And if yt may be altered / then it is not necessary. Whereby appeareth how trewly I gathered off your words / which yow cannot avoid without such senseless speeches.
Against that which I said off Ecclesiastical discipline / instituted in the 18 / off S. Matthew for contemners and neglecters off the word / and common prayers: yt is said / and said with great words / that that place is to be understanded off secret and particular faults, and not off open, and known. Whereas yt is more then manifest / that if the scripture giveth authority to reprehende private faults: yt doth much more authorise to rebuke public faults. And if those faults / which are done against one man: miche more those which are done against the whole church. And iff those which are done against the profit off men: much more against those / which are done against the glory off God. And if upon refusal off Admonition / in those particular and secrete cases / he will have the church proceed to excommunication: how much more will he / that that proceeding be observed in thes open faults? And yt ys to childish / thus continually to stumble at this: that the words off the scripture should have no farther reach / then to that special case whereof express mention is made in the text: and to leave no place to arguments off like / of more to the les / off les to the more / of contraries &c. and therbie to cut off all meditation off the word of God / to destroy a great parte off the use off teaching in the church. Albeit in following his own interpretation / the contemners or neglecters off the word and prayers / may well be subject to this rule / (for it may come to pas that one may contemn the word / &c. And yet in that manner as it shall be known wne only unto one what opinion he norishethe of them) yet because that is not always / let us see further / what unskillfulness it is which the A. doth so greatly accuse in this allegatiō.
Saint Paul grounding him self upon this place off our Savior / doubted not to draw forth the authority he had to excommunicate / against the incestuous mā / which was notoriously known to have offended the whole congregation / and Hymineus / which had corrupted the puretie off the doctrine. And iff the A. say trewly / that that doctrine off our Savior Christ touching excommunication / may be carried no farther then to that case off private and secret injuries: then Saint Paul drew the sword / and taught to draw yt / where yt owght not. And although there be no mention made off the admonitions: yet they must be off necessity presupposed / forasmiche as it was not lawful / to have proceeded to that extremity off cuttinge off by excommunication: if the offenders had left any place to admonitions / and would have suffered themselves to have been cured by gentler medicines. What also that Saint Paul upon the public admonition which he gave unto certain offenders / menaceth them that if they admit not his admonitions / and reprehensions / he will not spare them: doth he not in those words give them the threat off excommunication? And if he do▪ then yt is clear / that those admonitions being public / were off public / and known faults / whereby folowethe that this rule off admonishing and reprehending / are forerunners unto excommunication / even in public faults. And as he here fighteth against a manifest truth: so he hath himself for adversary: which affirmeth / that against an heretic / both thes two admonititions which our savior Christ speakethe of / and the excommunication afterward / ought to be practiced, unless he will say / that an heretic which is known to one only / owght so to be handled and that he which is notoriously known / owght to be free frō that censure. The place of M Calvin / is altogeter frō the purpose, for I do not say that private admonitions ought to be applied unto public offenses / the Apostle of thē giveth order that such offenders should be rebuked openly. Only I said / that for contempt / and neglect off the words (I might have said for every fault that tendeth either to the hurt of the neighbor / or to the hinderance off the glory off God) there be prescribed in the word off God / admonitions / and reprehensions / and if those will not serve / excommunications: but whether the admonitions and reprehensions should be private or public (that thing hanging upon the quality and kind of the fault) I affirmed nothing.
Now let us see / what reuel he maketh with the civil Discipline / appointed by the law of God: Where before he can give one answer / he must ask three questions: the first is answered before in the beginning / the last is handled afterward in the 6. Ch. and 5. division. And as for that parte of the seconde questiō which withe other his sainges following surmise that I would have the negltcte of the word punished by death: yt is directly against my express words / which (having shown the punishments / that should be executed upon contemners) add that there are other punishments for those / which neglect the word &c. And as to that parte off his question / which is whether contemners off the word owght to be put to death: yt is as his other questions be / of things not only affirmed / and set down / but disputed off both partes. For this is that which we plainly affirm / and bring arguments to prove. And when he that despiseth the word of God / despiseth God himself: the equity of this must needs appear / unto all those in whom there is but a corn off the zeal and looue of the glory off God / or rather in whō there is not some pleasure / to see the glory of God trodden under feet. But he saithe / that the place off Moses off putting Idolaters unto death, maketh nothing to prove this. The reason whereof he assignethe to be: because contemners / are not Idolaters. This is his ordinary fault / that he cannot understand / that iff an Idolater owght to die: miche more a contemner of the word. For contempt (although yt be not in an action / which doth utterly overturn the service of God / as Idolatry: but in one which staineth / or cracketh yt only / as is the breach off the Sabbothe) is yet shown to be so displeasante unto the lord / and so detestable: that that which off yt self / was not deadly / only by this circumstance of contempt / was punished with present death / which may appear in him that gathered sticks on the Sabothe day. The breach off the sabothe day / was not simply punishable by death / as Idolatry was / much les so small a breach / by the gathering off a few sticks: yet because yt was done (as the scripture saithe) in a high hand / that is to say proudly and contemptuouslie: the lord commanded / that he should be put to death / and setteth that down for a generalle law. How much more then / shall he which despisethe the word off God / (which is the rule off the whole body off the service off God / and off that true rest From our own works and from sin / whereof that bodelye rest / was a figure) be punished withe death? And iff because the law doth not say in thus many words / that a contemner shall die, yt be not lawful to conclude / that he owght to be put to death: what will the answerer say / unto the writer unto the hebrues which saithe / that he that despisethe the law off Moses under two or three witnesses / was put to death without mercy? For by those words yt appeareth / not only that a contemner of the law off Moses / owght by the law to die (which is that which I set down:) but also that the writer upon th •• and such like places as I have here alleged / gathered that which is nowhere in the law / found in the same words wherein he uttereth that sentence.
Touching the place off Deutronomy, which he saithe is only understanded off false witness: yt is apparent / that although yt follow immediately the law off puttinge a false witness to death: yet it is a general sentence / and hath regard unto all the crimes which are capital. for iff false witnesses be put to death / and Idolaters or contemners remain: how is the lande purged off the evils which draw the wrath off God upon yt? or how is a terror stricken into the rest whereby they may be kept from the infection off that sin? And if no punishment / but death / be hable to give a sound full enough to stricke a sufficient terror of the sin off false witness in such a case: how much more ys yt needful / that there be as brymme / and as audible a punishment against Idolaters / and contemners of the word / to the ingendring of that fear in others / whereby the rest may be kept / in the fear and true worship off the lord.
The place off the Chronicles / is not answered: for yt is more general / then the A. taketh yt: and is an exposition off the law. For where the law saithe / that he that seruethe strange God's shall die: this place saithe / that he shall die which seekethe not the lord, where in are comprehended not only Idolaters / but Atheists / and mockers / and contemners off God: which is that which I had to prove. As for that he asketh off the perpetuite off thes laws / yt is afterward spoken off.
In the ende he findeth fault / that I (saying there are other punishments for such as neglect the word of God / according to the fault) do nether tell what they are / nor where they be to be found. I thought that the mowthe of his understanding had not been so narrow / but yt could easily comprehend / that if contempt be by the word off God to be punished by death: that the neglect off yt / owght not to escape the civil punishment / either in body / or God's / &c. Why I did not reckon them up / I assigned sufficient cause: in that the varying / according to the quantity off the fault / more or les: could not be set down. And iff he will see in general / what punishment the law of God alloweth of in such cases: he may read in Ezra. Where (beside the punishment off death / against the transgressors off the law) there be also appointed banishement / loss of Good / or imprisonement / as the quality off the faute required. And if he say / that that was done by the authority not off the law of God / but of a heathen prince: the answer is easy / that yt is very like / that the commission given to Ezra / and authorised by the king / was drawn by Ezra: which was a cunninge scribe in the law of God. At the left yt is manifest / that he both accepted that / and amongst other things gave God thanks for yt: which he would never have done / unless • t / had been a Good interpetation off the law in that behalffe / considering that even the civil and politic laws / Whereby: the Jews were thē (and in Jury especially) governed▪ ought to be no other / then those which the lord had prescribed in the law. And thus let yt be Iudged / what Good cause I had to ask / what was become off the A. judgment: when he set down, that there is no Discipline appointed • n the word off God, for those which shall contemn the word off god, and common prayers.
Division 7. pag. 91.
THe answerer said / that there was not one word in the scripture off pulpites or off sytting at the communion: in a word I shown / that there was. And where he saithe the pulpit was placed in open street: That was / because off their dwelling in tents / the feast whereof they celebrated. For otherwise yt appeareth / that such a high place in the temple / out off the which the voice off him which spake might be heard / was ordinary. The reason off calling the doctrine of Moses / the chair of Moses / by a metonumie off the subject For the adiuncte: I will leave to the reader to judge of. for my judgment off them / I said / that they are not lightly to be changed: and he dispurethe against me / as if I had said: that yt were not lawful to change thes upon any occasion. And beside this disputing against his own fancy / and not against my words: he hath violently broken into the question / off reading and interpreting the word off God / without any the leste occasion given thereof: and hath also shamefully corrupted / the place off Nehemiah's / as shall be seen in the proper place.
8. Division pag. 92.
Here he accusethe me of falsifying his words / which have charged him with saying / that yt ys an indifferent thing to preach the word of God in churches or houses privately or publicly: wherein he still uttereth his forheade / harder then any steel. For thes being his own words / that the scripture speaketh not a word of preaching or baptizing, openly or privately, at home or in the church: doth he not say the same that I lay unto him. What ys indifferent / if that be not / which the scripture saithe not a word of / hath not prescribed / hath not determined / hath not appointed? all which phrases he useth / as those which signify the same thing. And when he addethe in the ende / that there is none so simple, that understandeth, not that the church hath authority to take order in thes things: doth he not affirm the same? for the church hath authority only in indifferent things to take order. So that it is more manifest then the day / that which I have charged him with ones / he hath said twice / although not in the same / yet in as full words. And where he asketh / whether yt be all one to say / the scripture hath not determined whether baptism should be ministered openlie or privately, at home or in the church, and to say / the church may make baptism private or public: verelie they are in mine and I think in all other indifferent judgment / all one: and iff they were not / yet as I have shown / yow have said both the one / and the other.
And where yow say / that I thereby give the reader to understand, that yow affirm yt is in power off the church, to apointe that there should be no public baptism: although I give no more to understand that / then that yow affirm / that it is in her power to appointe that there should be no private baptism: yet all men see / that this ys at the leste the weight off your words: that although the church should abvse her power in apointing always private baptism / yet that must be obeyed. For as when yow say / that the scripture hath not determined, whether the communion should be celebrated sitting, standing, or kneeling, baptism in fontes, basons, rivers, &c. Your meaning is to affirm / that iff the church will have the communion always received kneeling / or baptism always ministered in basone: that so it owght to be / and never either standing or sitting or in fontes: so in saying that the scripture hath not determined, whether the preaching off the word should be public, or private, &c. and that the church hath the ordering of this thing, yow affirm / that if the church should always ordain / that preaching and baptizing should be private: that so yt ought to be. Iff yow had said / that yt had been in the churches power / according to the former rules prescribed / to have ordered / whether preaching and administering the Sacraments should be in the town or in the field / in a church (as they call it) or in someone / man's house or other: I would have moved no question against yow. but when yow say / that yt is in the power off the church / to ordain whether yt should be public / or private / I cannot abide yow for even in the time of persecution / when it is preached in the house off a private man: I have shown / that the church assembling there / the meeting is public / whereunto yow answer not a word.
Againste the place I alleged out off Solomon / he excepteth that it is strangelie applied, and far fetched. Solomon in the chapter before / had shown how the harlot / doth lie in wait for men secrethe / and in the night time / and so (pressed with conscience of the evil / which she goethe about) shunneth the light / and sekethe secrete corners. In the beginning off this chapter / he comparethe the wisdom off God in his word / unto a noble woman / whom he opposethe unto the Harlot: and showeth How she off the contrary parte / doth not lie in wait / or seek corners / or night / to hide her self in / or whisper in the ears off men / but exalteth her voice and speakethe in the moste open places / and corners off streets where the greatest concourse off people is. whereupon it may appear / that iff the A. ether will / or understanding were at home / and not far from him: this place had been nere enough the purpose. For iff the word must be taught in such sort / as it may best be conveyed unto the knowledge of moste men / and leste be charged with the seeking off corners / or the cover off the night: and yt is manifest / that that is better done / when yt is preached publicly / then when yt ys preached privately: yt must follow / that by that saying of Solomon / yt is prescribed unto the church / that the preaching owght to be public. And if there be not only examples off Christ / and off his Apostles / but also a plain commandment (as I have shown) to preach the word openly: then yt folowethe / that if the church have power to order / whether the word should be preached publicly / or privately: yt hath power to order / contrary to the commandment of our savior Christ.
And where he saithe that the word off god may be taught prtuately, and that a man may exhort privately: that is nothing to the purpose. For we speak of the order which owght to be keepte in the exercises that concern the body off the church / and not of the private exhortations / teachings / and admonitions / that ether the minister owght to use towards the several persons off his flock / or one private man towards another / or the father off a howsholde in his family / &c. And this is so far from helping off him / that it maketh altogether against him. For as yt is not in the churches power / to forbid thes private teachinges / admonitions / exhortations / or to ordain that thes teachings / &c. be public / because the lord hath commanded thē to be private: so yt is not in her power / to take away the public preaching of the word: considering that the lord also hath commanded yt. And therefore yt ys untrue / which he set down: that the scripture hath not determined, whether the word should be taught, privately, or publicly. For by private men / yt hath determined yt should always be done privately: by publyke persons also / yt showeth how / and in what case / yt should be spoken privately: and how / and in what case / publicly: contrary whereunto the church cannot determine / and iff she determine a 100. times / she is not to be obeyed.
And whereas upon that / that neither the place / nor the number off Persons / be off the substance off the words and Sacraments / he would conclude / that it is in the power off the church / to make the preaching / and administering off the Sacraments / public or private: he may as well say (which he said in his former book) that yt is in the churches power to take order / whether men and women / shall come clothed / or naked to received the Sacraments: considering that to come either clothed / or naked / is not off the substance off the Sacraments. Where he owght to understand / that there are diverse things annexed / and hanging by / which being commanded by the word off god: are no more in the churches liberty to alter / then yt is in her power to change the day into night. Howbeit as I have shown / that the place otherwise private / being by the order of the church appointed for the assembly off the whole church / is for that time of the assembly public: so yt may be well said / that the noneber which meet in that place which is so appointed by the church / to hear the word off God / (how small so ever yt be) cannot hinder the publykenes off that assembly. The places quoted in the margente / to prove private celebrating off the Sacraments: are handled in another place.
That which is alleged / out of an article of the Suche church / that things otherwise indifferent, do after lawful commandment (after a sort) change their nature: we willingly subscribe unto howbeit / withe any thing which is here in controversy / it hath no knot at all / but is a wandering sentence / which hath no fellow. For yt is not debated here / what force off authority the things have / which the church ordeineth: but the questiō is altogether / what are the things which fall into the churches order.
The next division / wherein he requireth answer unto the place off the Corinthes / off doing all things decently / and orderly: ys answered in that I have shown / that the church being bound to this commandment in making her Ceremonies / is therbye tied / not only to place nothing in the church against the commandment off God / but is bound even according to the commandment / to frame her orders in indifferent things. Wherein the answerer (although he oppugneth the grounds which I used for the proof off yt) doth (I suppose) agree with me / and therefore there was no cause / he should have required any answer.
Caput 2. Division 1. pag. 95.
IF he would have proved / that which I deny: he should have shown / that thes authorities affirmed / that the church in making laws off things / whereof the scripture hath not precisely determined / need not to have respect to the general commandments off the scripture before received. but that he is not hable to do with any approved sentence. And albeit / he hath subscribed to this sentence before: yet in the ende off this division / he beginnethe to s • lyde into his former error / saying / that in matters not prescribed in the scripture, he cannot tell whether to resort, to know the use and antiquity of them, but unto councils, stories, and doctors. As thowge the scripture were not the loode star unto the church / in her decrees touching such things: and as though the first churches whhich had not such stories &c. had not sufficient address in the light off the word off God / to make constitutions by. I grant the church by stories &c. understandeth of their antiquity: but the knowledge of their antiquity maketh little or nothing to know / how profitable / or convenient for the church they be: which being that only / which is looked into in there establishing / is drawn from the scriptures / and not from antiquity. Howbeit because he pretendith agreement in this / that there be certain things left unto the order of the church with this cōditiō / that they be done according to the general commandments off the Scripture: we will hold him by his former words / and will not suffer him to break frō us / unless he do not only privily nibble and bite about / but in manifest words eat up / his former saying. Notwithstanding in the great plenty the A. hath off places / for the proof off this which we deny not: let yt be observed / what partly improper / partly ungodly choice / he hath made.
The first sort off Testimonies owt off the ancient writers / and councils / are off off those which are in controversy / as whether bishops may have suffringanes / whether there owght to be metropolitans / &c. Wheroff although he bring no testimony out off his antors / that they are in the churches power / to order: yet he settethe them down / as though there were never question moved off them / and as if he had gained them by strong hand off reason.
The seconde sort are off those things which being determined by the word off God / off or on / are out off the churches compass to take order in: As is that which he reciteth out of Justin / off the deacons carrying the brede of the holy supper off the lord, to those which were not present at the action off the supper: and that which he alledgeth out of the council of Neocesarea / that no man should be minister before 30. year off his age, Likewise that which he bringeth out off the Amyran council / that a minister cannot s • ll the churches rightes especially in that sense the council meaneth / which is for his own private profit. The first of these is contrary to the institution / and the last being sacrilege are simply forbid̄ in the word of god. The Scripture also determining that a man off those gifts which be required off the Minister off the word / may / and (if need require) owght to be received unto the ministry / and showing further / that those gifts fall into younger years then 3 • . yt must needs follow / that the church determining flatly / that none shall be received to the ministry before those years / shuttethe the door off the ministry unto those / to whom the word off God settethe yt open. And also / that this Council is altogether out off place alleged: considering that it determined not off this / as off a thing whereof the Scripture had not given sentence / but as off a thing unlawful by the Scripture / and for that purpose it alledgethe the example off our Savior Christ / which preached not before he was 30. year old. Thes things dangerously set down off the An. as indifferent / which are not: I thought it necessary to give the simple reader warning / that the Answ. measure wherewith he meteth indifferent things / is unsealed.
Ther is a third sort out off Tertull. de corona militis • d prax. & Basil. de sancto Spiritu, Wheroff beside that diverse off them were never convenient / some off them unlawful / they are all such as the authors do not permit to the order of the church / but under a false clock off tradition / put the churches neck under a servile yoke off them. And whereas he would fain save thes places out off the fire / by saying / that although some grew in time to superstitiō, and that one of his authors gave to much unto vnwrittē traditions: he doth but burn his fingers / the places he cannot save. For yt behooveth him to show / that certain things / not determined in the word off God / are in the churches power: and thes places (if they prove any thing) prove that the church / is bound off necessity to certain things / whereof there is no commandment in the word off God: for the which cause they are alleged off the papists / from whom it is not unlike but they were borrowed.
But yet it appeareth, that there were things in the church, not expressed in the word: I grant: and more then that / things contrary: but by what right yt doth not appear. And in deed iff the answerer had light upon some weywarde adversary / that would have debated this question with him: these places would have given him great advantage / considering that both the ceremonies / are for a great parte naught / and the opinion off the necessity off them a great deal worse. And Jerome's words also / in tying the later churches / unto the customs off the ancient which are not against faith / (albeit they be smoothed / by translatinge praesertim namely, and with his exposition of matters off faith) yet even as they are set down off him / overthrow the churches liberty in things indifferent. For although they should be inconvenient / and uncomely yet the matter off inconvenience / and vncomelines / being (by the Ans.) no matter off faith: the church must still be clogged with them / nether can it by that rule / shake them off.
There are a fourth sort of places out of the aunciēte fathers / wherein he putteth the greatest confidence / and upon which he hath laid greatest weight: and therefore by hands set over against them / moveth the reader to lay sure hold on them. Thes places drawn out off Ambrose upon the Ephes. and of Tertull de virginibus velandis. that of Ambrose being (as hath been shown) very corrupt / is also a conterfaite / as shall after be noted. The other off Tertull / is a flat and a plain Montaniste. yt is not unknown / that Montanus held / that there was no sufficient instruction given by the Apostles unto the church / but that there were only certain principles off Religion given by them being imperfect / and were afterward to be finished / and polished / by the conforter which himself did forge. This poison Tertullian having druncke / he left the Sauour off yt in diverse places / but in no place more brimly then in this. which may appear / by the comparisons he useth / off likening the church off God in the Apostles time / unto a tree whose fruit was not blomed / and unto one which is in his base age: and the churches after the Apostles times / through revelations (such as he imaginethe the Apostles were not hable to bear) always marching forward towards a greater ripeness in fruit / and perfection in age. And if the D. had been a little awakened / he might have smelt the fraud even in thes words / which he hath been ab used by. For when he imagineth a nother rule off conuersatiō / and leading of life of a Chirstian / then that which hath been given: he might have justly suspected the sentence: seeing the rule off conversation / comprehended in the commandments / is unchangeable. And when he addeth / that that should be done by the grace off God / receiving increase daily unto the ende: he did not obscurely touche / the head off his error / which is / that there shall be still unto the worlds ende / greater graces off the spirit off God given to the church generally / then hath been before in the Apostles times. Wherbie appeareth / that the places which the A. will have the reader lay so fast hold of / are thorns not to be once touched / without a hedging gloue in one hand / and a hatche • in the other. We willingly subscribe / unto the Judgment off M. Calvin alleged here.
And where the Ans. would make peradventure the reader believe / that by the words off policy and government left to the judgment off the church, Calvin meaneth / to make thes pointes in controversy at the churches disposition: it shall appear / both by his several sentences of thes things / that he holdethe them unchangeable / and by the exposition off M Beza his words / the same in effect with thes off Master Calvin / which cometh after to be considered.
It remaineth that seeing the answerer would oppress us / with the authority off the fathers. We consider / whether there can be any fitter places brought / for the maintenance off the Admonition / then the A. hath alleged for him. Augustine / Whether yt be questiō off Christ, or whethet yt be question off his church, or off what thing soever the question be off: I say not if we, but iff an angel from heaven, shall tell us any thing beside that yow have received in the scriptures under the law, and the gospel, let him be accursed. And lest the Answ. should restrain this general saying unto the doctrine of the gospel / so that he would thereby shut out the discipline: let him hear what Cyprian saithe. The Christian religion (saithe he) shall find that out off this scripture, rules off all doctrines have spronge, and that from hence doth springe and hither doth return, whatsoever the Ecclesiastical discipline doth contain. And even Tertull himself / before he was imbrued with this heresy off Montanus / giveth testimony unto the discipline / in thes words. We may not give our selves this liberty, to bring in any thing off our will, nor choose any thing that other men bring in off their will: we have the Apostles for authors, which them selves brought nothing off their own will, but the discipline which they received of Christ, they delivered faithfully unto the people. And if the sentence were any thing worth / which he brought in touching the discipline / owt off Tertull: yt maketh against him. For in that he will have that correction off the discipline / to have the authority of the holy ghost (speaking in his fantastical comforter) he declareth / that it is not a thing which hangeth upon the will of mortal mē. And that in indifferent things / it is not enough that they be not against the word / but that they be according to the word: yt may appear by other places / Wherehe saith / that whatsoever pleasethe not the lord, displeaseth him, and withe hurt is received. And in another place he saithe / that the scripture denieth that, which yt noteth not. And to come yet nearer / where he disputeth against the wearing of crown or garland (which is indifferent off it self) to those which objecting asked / where the scripture saithe that a man might not wear a crown: he anwereth by asking / where the scripture saithe, that they may we are. And unto thē replying / that yt is permitted which is not for bidden: he answereth / that yt is forbidden, which is not permitted. Whereby appeareth / that the argument off the scriptures negatively / holdeth / not only in the doctrine / and Ecclesiastical discipline: but even in matters arbitrary / and variable by the advise off the church. Where it is not enough / that they be not forbidden / unless there be some word / which doth permit the use of them: yt is not enough / that the scripture speaketh not against them / unless it speak for them: and finally / where yt displeaseth the Lord / which pleasethe him not: one must off necessity have the word off his mouthe / to declare his pleasure.
Whether I commonly use to propound things in controversy / in bare affirmations / or denials / without reason: and whether yowe apply the scriptures / better then I: and howe true yt is / that yowe have in yower former book alleged more scriptures / then I did in mine (all which things this gloss affirmeth) I leave yt to the Judgment off the reader.
Cap. 3. Division 1. pag. 100.
IN the first whole page / there is nothing to be answered: yt being shown / that yt is not our question (which the A. doth so shamefully affirm) whether the scripture have expressed all external ceremonies / &c. In the next page / unto me showing that the place off August. to Casulanus is against him / for that where he would prove / that certain things are in the churches power / the words which he alledgeth say / that the decrees of the forefathers / and coustomes off the people off God are to be observed / tying the church to the decrees / and coustomes off those which went before: he answereth / that August. giveth a rule unto private men and not unto the church. Wherein he condemneth himself / off having alleged that sentence clean beside the cause. For it is manifest / by the words immediately going before / that he alleged it / to prove the authority off the church in things indifferent: neither can yt in any other respect / have any bond with that / which he pretendeth to prove. And now that yt is shown / howe unfitly the place is alleged: he shifteth his footing / and in stead off a rule touching the church / he maketh yt a rule for private men: and in stead off showing the liberty off the church / he showeth the bondage / that a private man is tied by.
Where I conclude against him off that sentence off Augustine / that we ought to follow the coustomes / and orders off the Apostles / and off the primative churches / seeing yt ys certain / that they were our forefathers / and the people off God: and that we owght not to follow the Papists / which are neither the people off God / nor our forefathers: to the first / off following the Apostles / he saith / there were certain things convenient only for their times / which are not to be followed. Wherein unless he mean those things / which are in controversy / yt is nothing to the purpose: and iff he mean them / yt is a manifest begging off that / which is in demand. Unto the seconde point / off not taking the Papists coustomes / and decres: he referreth me to other places. Where notwithstanding he never answereth this argument off Augustine: and so in pretence off a fitter place / he hath taken a longer day.
Where he noteth me of ignorance (in that I said / I could oppose Ignatius / and Tertull / unto August. and Ambrose / touching the fast upon the Lord's day) saying / that there is no difference between them, thone part speaking off the Saturday, the other off the Sunday: I am contented to bear his charge off ignorance. But is there any man / so forsaken off all not learning only / but common reason / which doth not understand that thes propositions differ / and fight amongst them selves / yt ys a detestable thing to fast on the Lord's day: which is the Judgment off Ignatius / and Tertull: and / yt is lawful to fast on the Lord's day: Which is the Judgment off Augustine / set down off him self? And when Ambrose / speaking not only off the Sabbothe off the Jews / but generally / willeth that whatsoever the custom off the church be in that behalffe off fasting, yt should be followed: doth he not manifestly overthrow his saying / which saith / to fast on the Lord's day is to kill the Lord? And even in the case off the fast off the Jews Sabbothe / which Casulanus demandeth counsel off / yt appeareth there was great disagrrement between the ancient fathers / considering that in the Canons / which are attributed unto the Apostles / it was ordained / that if one were found to fast on the Lord's day / or on the Sabbothe (one only exepted): being a clerk / he should be deposed / and being a layman / separated from the supper off the Lord. If I have off ignorance / set the fathers together by the ears (as he saith): let us see / howe with his knowledge / he can part them / and set them at one in this behalffe.
That the fasts which were kept / in the times off Ambrose / and Augustine / and longe before / and their allowance especially off the Lentenne fasts Were corrupt / and profanations off the true use off fast: if need were / as I have in part / so yt might in more words easily be shown. That the counsel give for the keeping of those superstitious fasts / might have place in a stranger / and private mā / which owght not to stand towards a Citisen / and him that hath charge: yt is apparent. And yet both thes the Answerer would bear down with words / and nothing but words.
Where the answ. saying that he knoweth nothing in the place off Augustine / or Ambrose / touching fasting / which may not be observed without just offense / may be taken either to speak of the places which I alleged / thouching merit off fasting / or the places which him self alleged: I will rather esteem (until I know the contrary) that he meant off those which he brought him self / then together with the slipp off standing days off fast / he should also fall flat by opinion / off the merit in fasting. And so I would have the reader to take him / that there be no offense taken at this place / so doubtfully left. Where he bringeth me in concluding / that because the ancient fathers erred in some things / therefore they said true in none: my words carry no such sense. But for so much as they erred / and even in this matter off fast / which was in hand: they owght to have no further credit / then their authority is waranted by the word off God / and good reason. and that therefore the Answ. which presseth their bare authority / without any ward off the word of God / or assistance of good reason / ether brought of him self / or fetched from them / bringeth an intolerable tyranny into the church of God. This I gave to understand / which because he durst not in plain words gain say: he hath turned my words unto another sense.
Cap. 3. Division 2 pag. 103.
Augustine saithe / that the feast of Easter, Pentecoste &c. are the statutes off the Apostles, and commended to the churches, and addeth / that they are not contained in the scripture. Whereuppon I concluded / that there is some thing (by this reckoning) commanded off God to be observed / not contained in the scripture: and consequently / that there is no sufficient doctrine / contained in the scripture / whereby we may be saved. To this the Doct. answereth / that yt is a pretty and sound collection. I have in deed for shortness sake / trussed that into two or three propositions / which to put in full / and comptere arguments / required a greater number: Howbeit the soundenes off the collection / is apparent to all / which will open their eyes. And because the Ans: will yield no obedience unto the truth / unless she taking him by the collar / have her hand̄ upon his throat: the foundenes off the collection shall thus appear unto him. What soever was decreed off the Apostles / and commended unto the churches to be observed / is necessary: but some things (by Aug. and the D.) not contained in the word off God / were decreed and commended by the Apostles / unto the posterity of the churches: therefore some things (by Aug. and the D.) not contained in the word of God / is necessary to be observed. The first proposition is manifest / considering that the statutes off the Apostles / are the statutes off Christ: the seconde is Augustine's / allowed off the D. and iff both these be true / then the third must needs be.
This being thus gathered / that which I added / that therupō yt followed / that there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures: is thus concluded. That which doth not contain all the will off God / necessary for us to do / containeth no sufficient doctrine unto salvation: but the scripture (by Aug / and the d.) conteinethe not all the will off God / necessary for us to do: therefore the scripture (by Aug. and the d) containeth no sufficient doctrine unto salvation. The first proposition is manifest / in that S. Paul to deliver him self from the gilte off blood / towards the Ephes. alledgeth / that he had taught them all the will off God: the second followeth off that which Aug. and the d. allow. for iff there be something commanded off the Apostells / not contained in the word off God: that being necessary / yt must follow / that some necessary thing for us to do / is not contained in the word.
And where the A. saithe / that neither Aug. nor he say, that any thing not contained in the scripture is so necessary, that it may not be altered (upon just occasion) by such as have authority: he cannot mock the world after that sort / withe fast and loose at his pleasure. For if they be statutes off the Apostles / and commended unto the churches: what authority is there upon earth / which can displace them which the apostles have placed? and iff it be madness (as he saith afterward out off Augustine) not to observe them / or once to reason off them: how can they take order in them? And this answer is overthrown / by the words off Augustine which follow immediately. But other things (saith he) which are varied by regions (as that some fast upon the sabbothe day, some do not, &c. are at liberty to bo observed: neither is there any better rule to a Christian man in thes, then to do as the church doth where he comethe. Where it is manifest / that he opposeth the tradition off the Apostles / and there statutes received by tradition: unto those things / which are in the churches power to ordain / and to those wherein yt ys safe for us to apply our selves / to the order off the church. They being therefore in this opposed / the one being in the churches power / the other are nor the one being of that sort / that off which side soever the church determine off them / a man may saflie obey / the other must needs be off that sort / that if the church would otherwise ordain of them / then the Apostles: that a man may not safely obey. And in the next sentence / the things which he opposethe those statutes off the Apostles unto / he calleth indifferent: and thereby giveth to understand / that he took them for vnindifferent. and hitherto pertaineth / that he alledgeth owt off August. in Zwingli name / and is found in his book against the Donatists / where yt ys said / that they are to be holden as given by Apostolical authority. Which is more then if he had said / given by the Apostles: considering that there are things given off the Apostles as counsels / and left at the churches order to change upon occasion as were the traditions / which M. Calvin speaketh off / but they were never left unto the church / with an Apostolical authority. Which authority is off the higheste nature / and proceeding from the higheste court that can be.
And that this was Augustine's meaning / appeareth manifestly by the place which I alleged / out of his book against the donatistes.