Baxters Narrative of His Life and Times

Ministers; but it was refused, because we would be as little querulous as possible, lest it should offend, and hinder our desired Accommodation: and what Passages soever seemed to make the Common-Prayer-Book odious, or savor of Spleen and Passion, they did reject whoever offered them. My principal Business was to keep out such Accusations as would not bear weight, and to repress the Opinions of one of the Brethren (who came from far, and so came not till late among us) who was absolutely against all parts of the Common-Prayer, because they had been used by Papists to Idolatry. And I drew up such Faults as in perusing the Common-Prayer-Book itself, did occur to me; and which were they which I most disliked in the Forms; being not so much offended with some other things, as some others were: But the Brethren reduced it to a few brief Exceptions in general, and would not by so particular an Enumeration of Faults provoke those that we had to do with (which I misliked not). But from the beginning I told them that I was not of their Mind who charged the Common-Prayer with false Doctrine, or Idolatry, or false Worship in the Matter or Substance, nor that took it to be a Worship which a Christian might not lawfully join in, when he had not Liberty and Ability for better: And that I always took the Faults of the Common Prayer to be chiefly Disorder and Defectiveness: and so that it was a true Worship, though imperfect; and Imperfection was the Charge that we had against it (considered as distinct from the Ceremonies and Discipline). I looked at it as at the Prayers of many a weak Christian that I have heard, who prayed with Disorder and Repetitions and unfit Expressions: I would not prefer such a weak Christian in Prayer before a better; but yet if I separated from such an one, or thought it unlawful to join with him, I should be sinfully Curious and Uncharitable. And I think this was the Mind of all our Brethren, save one, as well as mine: And old Mr. Ash hath often told us, that this was the Mind of the old Nonconformists, and that he hath often heard some weak Ministers so disorderly in Prayer, especially in Baptism and the Lord's Supper, that he could have wished that they would rather use the Common-Prayer. Yet when we desired the Reformation of it, especially at a time when the Peoples Hearts were so much set against it, I thought it best to open the true Disorders that they might be reformed. The Paper which I offered, and we laid by, lest it should offend them, was this following.

§ 176. At this time was the Convocation chosen: for till now it was deferred. Had it been called when the King came in, the inferior Clergy would have been against the Diocesan and Imposing way: But afterwards many hundreds were turned out that all the old sequestered Ministers might come in. And the Opinion of Reordination being set afoot, all those Ministers, that for Twenty years together, while Bishops were laid aside, had been Ordained without Diocesans, were in many Countries denied any Voices in the Election of Clerks for the Convocation: By all which means, and by the Scruples of abundance of Ministers, who thought it unlawful to have anything to do in the choosing of such a kind of Assembly, the Diocesan Party wholly carried it in the Choice.

§ 177. In London the Election was appointed to be in Christ's Church, on the Second day of May (1661). The London Ministers that were not yet ejected, proved the major Vote against the Diocesan Party, and when I went to have joined with them, they sent to me not to come, as they did also to Mr. Calamy, and (without my knowledge) they chose Mr. Calamy and me for London. But they carried it against the other Party but by Three Voices: And the Bishop of London having the power of choosing Two out of Four (or Four out of Six) that are chosen by the Ministers in a certain Circuit, did give us the great use of being both left out, and so we were excused, and the City of London had no Clerk in the Convocation. How should I have been there baited, and what a vexatious place should I have had in such a Convocation!

§ 178. The fourth day of May, we had a meeting with the Bishops, where we gave in our Paper of Exceptions to them; which they received.

§ 179. The seventh day of May was a Meeting at Zion-College of all the London Ministers, for the choice of a President and Assistants for the next Year: where (some of the Presbyterians upon a pettish Scruple absenting themselves) the Diocesan Party carried it, and so got the Possession and Rule of the College.

§ 180. The eighth day of May the new Parliament and Convocation sat down, being constituted of Men fitted and devoted to the Diocesan Interest.

§ 181. On the two and twentieth day of May, by order of Parliament, the National Vow and Covenant was burnt in the Street, by the Hands of the common Hangman.

§ 182. When the Brethren came to examine the reformed Liturgy, and had oft read it over, they past it at last in the same Words that I had written it, save only that they put out a few Lines in the Administration of the Lord's Supper, where the Word offering was used; and they put out a Page of Reasons for Infant Baptism, which I had annexed to that Office, thinking it unnecessary; and they put the larger Litany into an Appendix as thinking it too long; and Dr. Wallis was desired to draw up the Prayer for the King, which is his Work (being after somewhat altered by us). And we agreed to put before it a short Address to the Bishops, professing our readiness in Debates to yield to the shortening of anything which should be too long, and the altering of anything that should be found amiss.

§ 183. And because I foresaw what was like to be the end of our Conference, I desired the Brethren that we might draw up a plain and earnest Petition to the Bishops, to yield to such Terms of Peace and Concord as they themselves did confess to be lawful to be yielded to: For though we are equals in the King's Commission, yet we are commanded by the Holy Ghost, If it be possible, and as much as in us lieth to live peaceably with all men, Rom. 12. 18. and to follow peace with all men, Heb. 12. 14. and if we were denied, it would satisfy our Consciences, and justify us before all the World, much more than if we only disputed for it: However we might this way have that opportunity to produce our Reasons for Peace, which else we were not like to have.

§ 184. This Motion was accepted, and I was desired to draw up the Petition, which I did, and it was examined, and with a Word or two of Alteration consented to.

§ 185. When we met with the Bishops to deliver in these Papers, I was required to deliver them; and if it were possible, to get Audience for the Petition before all the Company. I told them, that though we were Equals in the present Work, and our appointed business was to treat, yet we were conscious of our Place and Duty, and had drawn up a Petition to them, which, though somewhat long, I humbly craved their Consent that I might read it to them, Some were against it, and so they would have been generally if they had known what was in it; but at last they yielded to it: But their Patience was never so put to it by us, as in hearing so long, and ungrateful a Petition. When I had read it, Dr. Gunning beginneth a long and vehement Speech against it: To which when he came to the end, I replied: But I was interrupted in the midst of my Reply; and was fain to bear it, because they had been patient (with much ado) so long before.

§ 186. I delivered them the Petition when I had read it, and with it a fair Copy of our reformed Liturgy, called [ Additional Forms and Alterations ] of theirs. And they received both, and so we departed.

Our said Writings are too long to be here inserted.

§ 187. After all this, when the Bishops were to have sent us two Papers, one of their Concessions how much they would alter of the Liturgy as excepted against, and the other of their Acceptance of our offered Forms, or Reasons against them, instead of both these, a good while after, they sent us such a Paper as they did before, of their Reasonings against all our Exceptions, without any Abatements or Alterations at all, that are worth the Naming. Our Brethren seeing what they were resolved to bring it too, and how unpeaceably they managed the Business, did think best to write them a plain Answer to their Paper, and not to suppress it as we had done by the First. This Task also they imposed on me, and I went out of Town to Dr. Spurstow 's House in Hackney for Retirement, where in eight Days time I drew up a Reply to their Answer to our Exceptions; and the Brethren read it and consented to it; only wished that it had been larger in the latter end, where I had purposely been brief, because I had been too large in the beginning. and because Particulars may be answered satisfactority in a few Words, when the General Differences are fully cleared.

§ 188. By this time our Commission was almost expired, and therefore our Brethren were earnestly desirous of personal Debates with them, upon the Papers put in to try how much Alteration they would yield to: Therefore we sent to the Bishops to desire it of them; and at last they yielded to it, when we had but Ten Days more to treat.

§ 189. When we met them, I delivered them the Answer of their former Papers (the largeness of which I saw displeased them) and they received it. And we earnestly pressed them to spend the little time remaining in such pacifying Conference as tended to the ends which are mentioned in the King's Declaration and Commission, and told them, that such Disputes which they had called us to by their manner of Writing, were not the thing which we desired or thought most conducing to those ends.

§ 190. I have reason to think that the Generality of the Bishops and Doctors present never knew what we offered them in the reformed Liturgy, nor in this Reply, nor in any of our Papers, save those few which we read openly to them. For they were put up and carried away, and I conjecture scarce any but the Writers of their Confutations would be at the Labor of reading them over. And I remember in the midst of our last Disputation, when I drew out the short Preface to this last Reply (which Mr. Calamy wrote, to enumerate in the beginning before their Eyes, many of the grossest Corruptions which they stiffly defended and refused to reform) the Company was more ashamed and silent, than at anything else that I had said; by which I perceived that they had never read or heard that very Preface, which was as an Epistle to themselves: Yea, the chief of them confessed when they bid me read it, that they knew no such thing: So that it seems before they knew what was in them, they resolved to reject our Papers, right or Wrong, and to deliver them up to their Contradictors.

§ 191. When we came to our Debates, I first craved of them their Animadversions on our Additions, and Alterations of the Liturgy, which we had put in long before; and that they would tell us what they allowed, or disallowed in them, that we might have the use of them according to the Words in the King's Declaration and Commission. But they would not by any Importunity be entreated at all to debate that, nor to give any of their Opinions about those Papers. There were no Papers that ever we offered them that had the Fate of those: Though it was there that some of them thought to have found recriminating matter of Exception: yet could we never prevail with them to say anything about them in Word or Writing; but once Bishop Morley told us of their length, to which I answered that we had told them in our Preface, that we were ready to abbreviate any thing which on debate should appear too long; but that the Purity of the Prayers made the ordinary Lord's day Prayers far should than theirs. And since we had given our Exceptions against theirs, if they would neither by Word nor Writing except against ours, nor yet give their Consent to them, they would not honor their Cause or Conference. But all could not extort either Debates on that Subject, or any Reprehensions of what we had offered them. Nor have they since to this Day, in any of their Writings (which ever I could see or hear of) said a Word in way of Exception against those Papers: Yea, when Roger L'Estrange himself wrote (according to his manner) a malicious Invective against our several Papers, when they were afterwards printed, he could find little to say against our Liturgy, but that we left it to the Liberty of the Minister in several Cases, to pray [in these Words, or to this Sense ]. And is that all the fault (besides the Length forementioned)? Did they not know that it belongeth to the Prelates, and not to such as we, to deprive Men of their Liberty in praying? If they had desired it, how easy had it been for them to have dashed out that one Clause [ or to this Sense ]? and then it had been beyond their Exception. What measure of Liberty Ministers shall have, it is not we, but they that must determine.

§ 192. When they had cast out that part of our desired Conference, our next business was to desire them by friendly Conference, to go over the Particulars which we excepted against, and to tell us how much they could abate, and what Alterations they could yield to. This Bishop Reynolds oft pressed them to, and so did all the rest of us that spake. But they resolutely insisted on it, that they had nothing to do till we had proved that there was any necessary of Alteration, which we had not yet done; and that they were there ready to answer to our Proofs: We urged them again and again with the very Words of the King's Declaration and Commission, 1. That the ends expressed are [ for the removal of all Exceptions and Occasions of Exceptions, and Differences from among our good Subjects, ] and [ for giving Satisfaction to tender Consciences, and the restoring and continuance of Peace and Unity in the Churches. ] 2. And the means is ( to make such reasonable and necessary Alterations, Corrections, and Amendments therein, as shall be agreed upon to be needful and expedient, for the giving Satisfaction to tender Consciences, and restoring and continuing Peace, &c.] We plainly shown hence that the King supposeth that some Alterations must be made: But the Bishops insisted on two Words [ necessary ] Alterations, and [ such as should be agreed on ]. We answered them, That the Word [ necessary ] hath reference to the Ends expressed, viz. [the satisfying tender Consciences ] and is joined with [ Expedient ]: And its strange if when the King hath so long and publicly determined of the End, and called us to consult of the means, we should presume now at last to contradict him, and to determine that the End it self is unnecessary, and consequently no means necessary thereto: What then have we all this while been doing? 2. And when they are called to [ agree ] on such necessary means, if they will take the Adventage of that Word, to [ agree on nothing ] that so all Endeavors may be frustrated for want of their Agreement, God and the World would judge between us, who it is that frustrateth the King's Commission, and the Hopes of a divided bleeding Church. Thus we continued a long time contending about this Point, [ Whether some Alterations be supposed by the King's Declaration and Commission to be made by us? or whether we were anew to dispute that Point? But the Bishops would have that to be our Task or none; to prove by Disputation that any Alteration was necessary to be made; while they confuted our Proofs. We told them, that the End being [to satisfy tender Consciences and procure Unity, ] those tender Consciences did themselves profess, that without some Alteration, and that considerable too, they could not be satisfied; and Experience told them, that Peace and Unity could not without it be attained. But still they said, that none was necessary, and they would yield to all that we proved necessary. And here we were lest in a very great Strait: If we should enter upon Dispute with them, we gave up the End and Hope of our endeavors: If we refused it, we knew that they would boast that when it came to the setting to, we would not so much as attempt to prove anything unlawful in the Liturgy, nor durst dispute it with them. Mr. Calamy with some others of our Brethren would have had us refuse the Motion of disputing, as not tending to fulfil the King's Commands: We told the Bishops over and over, that they could not choose but know that before we could end one Argument in a Dispute, our time would be expired; and that it could not possibly tend to any Accommodation: And that to keep off from personal Conference, till within a few Days of the Expiration of the Commission, and then to resolve to do nothing but wrangle out the time in a Dispute, as if we were between jest and earnest in the Schools, was too visibly in the sight of all the World, to defeat the King's Commission, and the Expectations of many Thousands, who longed for our Unity and Peace. But we spoke to the Deaf; they had other Ends, and were other Men, and had the Art to suit the means unto their Ends. For my part, when we faw that they would do nothing else, I persuaded our Brethren to yield to a Disputation with them, and let them understand that we were far from fearing it, seeing they would give us no hopes of Concord: but withal, first to profess to them, that the Guilt of disappointing his Majesty and the Kingdom, lay not upon us, who desired to obey the King's Commission, but on them. And so we yielded to spend the little time remaining, in disputing with them, rather than go home and do nothing, and leave them to tell the Court that we durst not dispute with them when they so provoked us, nor were able to prove our Accusations of the Liturgy.

§ 193. When this was resolved on, we spent many Hours with them about the Order of our Disputation: I offered them to spend one half of the time in the Opponents part, if they would promise to do the like the other half of the time, when we had done, that our Disputation might be on equal Terms. They refused this, and answered, That it belonged to us only to argue who were the Accusers, and not at all to them who were on the Defense. I told them it was we that are the Defendants against their Impositions: They command us to do such and such things, or else we shall be excommunicate, silenced, imprisoned, and undone: We descend ourselves against this cruelty, by calling upon them to show their Authority from God for such Impositions: Therefore we still call upon them to prove that God hath authorised them to any such thing: And if they refuse this, they do give up their Cause. We offered first to prove the unlawfulness of their Impositious, if they would afterward prove the lawfulness of them, or their Power so to impose them. On these Terms we stood with them about two Days, and they would not yield to prove anything at all. At last I oft declared to them, that we would do our part, and prove their Impositions unlawful, whether they would do their part or on; but with an open Declaration that we took them for Deserters of their Cause. At last Dr. Pierson alone undertook that he would dispute for their Part, when we had performed ours, and we accepted of his Undertaking.

§ 194. Upon this, seeing it was to be all done in Writing, the rest of the Commissioners on both sides did choose three of a Party to manage the Dispute, that the other might withdraw themselves, because they had no more to do. The Bishops chose Dr. Pierson, Dr. Gunning, and Dr. Sparrow. The other side chose Dr. Bates, Dr. Iacomb, and myself: (for I never meddled with the choice of any, only I would • ain have had Mr. William Moses, Mr. Gibbons, and Mr. Matthew Pool into the Commission, that I might have had their help in Disputing, because they were very quick, ingenuous Men, and I could not prevail.) The rest of our Brethren presently withdrew, and not a Man of them came near us anymore; as supposing it contrary to the Agreement: But the Bishops came (some of them) from day today; indeed on the second day they asked whether anymore them the Disputants might be present: And I answered them, That we cared not how many of them were present: And after that, others that were not in the Commission asked, whether they might be present; and I told them the same. So that there came Dr. Pory, Dr. Crowther, and almost the Room full of them (with two or three Scholars and Lay-men, that as Auditors came in with us (Mr. Miles, Mr. Tillotson, &c. )

§ 195. When I began our first Argument, to prove their Impositions sinful, Bishop Cosins was offended at the Word [ sinful ]; and told me that I condemned all the Churches of Christ, who all of them imposed some Gesture or other, as much as that came to; and what intolerable Boldness was it in us to charge all the Churches of Christ with Sin! I answered him, 1. That many of the reformed Churches did not impose any such thing on their Terms; that is, to reject all from the Ministry and Communion that conformed not. 2. It was no Arrogance nor Uncharitableness, to charge all the Church and World with Sin: But he that saith. he hath no Sin, is a Lyar: In many things we offend all: It is the Privilege of the Triumphant Church to be without Sin. This they stormed at, and yet could not tell how to deny it. Bishop Lany said, [ That justified Persons have no Sin, and are no Sinners; because Justification taketh it away ]. But when I answered him by opening the Nature of Justification, and showing that it took not away the Sin itself, but the Guilt, which is the Obligation to Punishment, he was confounded, and unsaid all again, and knew not what he said; I told him that he might see how near we came to him: I confessed that if the Controversy were but de Nomine, and he took Justification, as some do, for Sanctification, or a Change of our Qualities and Actions, then I granted him that it took away Sin itself, but not perfectly, and therefore Sin still remained. Here he and some more said, that no Man before me ever took Justification in any such Sence, and they laughed at me: I answered, that I was glad to hear him say so; for my fear that he symbolized with the Papists was abated, now I perceived that he knew not what they held: And Dr. Gunning answered against him, and said that the Papists do so use the Word. I went on and told him, That I also granted that a Man for a certainspace might he without any Act of Sin; end as I was proceeding, here Bishop Morley interrupted me, according to his manner, with vehemency crying out, what can any Man be for any time without Sin! And he founded out his Aggravations of this Doctrine; and then cried to Dr. Bates, what say you Dr. Bates, is this your Opinion? Saith Dr. Bates, I believe that we are all Sinners; but I pray my Lord give him leave to speak: I began to go on to the rest of my Sentence, where I lest, to show the Sense and Truth of my Words; and the Bishop (whether in Passion or Design I know not) interrupted me again, and mouthed out the odiousness of my Doctrine again and again, I attempted to speak, and still he interrupted me in the same manner: Upon that I sat down and told him, that this was neither agreeable to our Commission, nor the common Laws of Disputation, nor the Civil Usage of Men in common Converse, and that if he prohibited me to speak, I desired him to do it plainly, and I would •• sist, and not by that way of interruption. He told me, I had speaking enough if that were good, for I spake more than any one in the Company: And thus he kept me so long from uttering the rest of my Sentence, that I sat down and gave over, and told him I took it for his Prohibition. At last I let him talk, and spake to those nearer me, which would hear me, and told them, that this was it that I was going to say, That I granted Bishop Lany, that it was possible to be free from acting Sin for a certain time, that so he might have no matter of Objection against me; and that the Instances of my Concession were these: 1. In the time of absolute Infancy. 2. In the time of total Fatuity or Madness, as natural Idiots that never had the use of Reason. 3. In the time of a Lethargy, Carus, or Apoplexy, or Epilepsie. 4. In the time of lawful sleep, when a Man doth not so much as dream amiss: And whether any other Instances might be given, I determined not. But as I talked thus; Bishop Morley went on, talking louder than I, and would neither hear me, nor willingly have had me to have been heard. Behind me at the lower end of the Table, stood Dr. Crowther, and he would consute me, and I defended Dr. Lany, in that Jeroboam made Israel to Sin: What gather you thence, quoth I, that they had no Sin but that, or never sumed before: He answered yes; and with a little Nonsence would defend it, that Israel sinned not till then: When I had proved the contrary to him in the general Acceptation of the Word [ Sin; ] I told him, that if he took the Word Figuratively, the Genus for a Species, I granted him that they sinned not that Species of Sin, which Jeroboam taught them, which is in the Text emphatically called Sin: If he meant that they sinned no Sin of Idolatry, or no National Sin till then, It was not true, and if it were, it was nothing to our Question, which was about Sin in the General, or indefinitely. He told me they Sinned no National Sin till then. I asked him whether the Idolatry, the Unbelief, the Murmuring, &c. by which all the Nation, save Caleb and Joshua, fell in the Wilderness, and the Idolatry for which in the time of the Judges the Nation was conquered, and captivated, were none of them National Sins? I give the Reader the Instance if this Odious kind of Talk, to show him what kind of Men we talked with, and what a kind of Task we had.

§ 196. And a little further touch of it I shall give you: When I begged their Compassion on the Souls of their Brethren, and that they would not unnecessarily cast so many out of the Ministry and their Communion: Bishop Cosins told me that we threatened them with Numbers, and for his part, he thought the King should do well to make us name them all. A charitable and wise Motion! To name all the Thousands of England that dissented from them, and that had sworn the Covenant, and whom they would after Persecute.

§ 197. When I read in the Preface to our Exceptions against the Liturgy [ That after twenty years Calamity, they would not yield to that which several Bishops voluntarily offered twenty Years before ] (meaning the Corrections of the Liturgy offered by Archbishop Usher, Archbishop Williams, Bishop Morton, Dr. Prideaux, and many others); Bishop Cosins, answered me, That we threatened them with a new War, and it was time for the King to look to us: I had no shelter from the Fury of the Bishop but to name Dr. Hammond; and tell him that I remembered Dr. Hammond insisted on the same Argument, that twenty Years Calamity should have taught Men more Charity, and brought them to repentance and Brotherly Love; and that it is an Aggravation of their Sin to be unmerciful after so long and heavy Warnings from God's Hand: He told me, if that were our meaning, it was all well. And these were the most logical Discourses of that Bishop.

§ 198. Among all the Bishops there was none who had so promising a Face as Dr. Sterne the Bishop of Carlisle: He looked so honestly, and gravely, and soberly, that I scarce thought such a Face could have deceived me; and when I was entreating them not to cast out so many of their Brethren through the Nation, as scrupeled a Ceremony which they confessed indifferent, he turned to the rest of the Reverend Bishops, and noted me for saying [ in the Nation: ] He will not say [in the Kingdom ] saith he, lest he own a King ]. This was all that ever I heard that worthy Prelate say: But with grief I told him, that half the Charity which became so grave a Bishop, might have sufficed to have helped him to a better Exposition of the Word [ Nation ]; from the Mouths of such who have to lately taken the Oaths of, Allegiance and Supremacy, and sworn Fidelity to the King as his Chaplains, and had such Testimonies from him as we have had: and that our case was sad, if we could plead by the King's Commission for Accommodation, upon no no better Terms, than to be noted as Traitors, every time we used such a Word as the [ Nation ]; which all monarchical Writers use.

§ 199. Bishop Morley earnestly pleaded my own Book with me (my fifth Dispute.) as he had done before the King: And I still told him, I went not from anything in it. He vehemently aggravated the mischiefs of Conceived Prayer in the Church, and when I told him that all the Action of Men would be imperfect, while Men were imperfect, and that the other side also had its inconveniences; he asked me whether I thought the inconveniences of Extemporary Prayer were not rather to be avoided, than those of imposed Forms: I told him that we should do our best to avoid the evils or abuse of both: He asked me, how that should be? I answered him, not by disclaiming the use of Forms, or of conceived Prayer, but using both in their proper seasons And as I was going on, the Company fell into a laughter at me, as if I had spoken for some foolish thing, when I spoke but for that which the Ministers of England have used ever since the Reformation; and most that have any Zeal do use by their allowance to this day, praying Extempore in the Pulpit.

§ 200. I oft made it my earnest request to them, but that we might have our proper turns in speaking, and that we might not interrupt one another, but stay the end: but I could never prevail, especially with Bishop Morley; who, when any thing was spoken which he would not have to be spoken out, would presently interrupt me, and go on in his way. I told them that if they took this Course, I judged all our Conference fruitless to the hearers: for my Speeches were not incoherent, but the end and middle must be joined to the beginning to make up the sense, and that as the End is first in the intention, but last in execution, so I usually reserved the chief part of what I had to say to the last, to which the beginning was but preparatory: And therefore I had rather they forbad me to speak anymore • than let me begin, and then not suffer me to go on any further. The Bishop answered that I spake so long, and had so many things, that their memories could not retain them all, and should lose the first if they stayed till the last: and that I spake more than any other: I told him, that as to my speaking more than others, it was my duty, yea to speak as much as all the rest, except when my Brethren saved me that labor. If they thought I spake too much, they would tell me so: And for others, one side was to speak as oft as the other side: If we had consented that they should fill the room, when we were but Three, and then everyone in the Room should speak as much as one of us, we had made a fair bout of it. I cared not how many of them spake, if they were but willing to be answered: But if five of them must speak, and but one of them be answered, they would say that all the rest were unanswerable. And for my length, I told him, that we consented that one of themselves should be always in the Chair, as they had been; and whenever the Chair-man interrupted me, and told me I had spoken long enough, I was willing to be silent (but that was never done): or let us turn the Quarter-Glass, and see that one speak no longer than the other: And for the weakness of their memories, I supposed they were on equal Terms: It was as hard for us to remember what they said; and if we could not, we would either take Notes, or ask another, or pass by what we forgot, rather than overthrow all Order in Discourse, and speak in Confusion like People in a Fair. And for my part, I thought, that a continued Speech without vain words doth best spare time, seeing that when I may thus set all the parts of my sense together (when the broken parcels signify nothing) I can better make known my meaning in a Speech of half a quarter of an hour, than in two days rambling Discourses, where Interruptions and Interlocutions toss us up and down from thing to thing, and never let us see the sense and reason of each others in that Connection and Harmony which is its Light and Strength]. But all these words were cast away; and they had seldom Patience to forbear an Interruption.

§ 201. One learned Doctor behind me (that was no Commissioner) desired to be heard, as if he had some unanswerable Argument: And it was a Question, Whether all that scrupled Conformity, whom we pleaded for, were not such as had been against the King? I answered him, 1. That the King himself had given sufficient Testimony of many of them. 2. That there is not one Minister of twenty that we plead for that had ever anything to do in the Wars, or against the King; most of them being then Boys at School, or in the University. 3. That Men on both sides had been against the King. Hereupon Bishop Morley asked me, whether ever I knew a conformable Man for the Parliament, against the King: Yes, my Lord, quoth I, many a one. Name one, quoth some of them: Yes, a Bishop, yea an Archbishop, quoth I: At which they all hearkened as at a wonder; Do you not know, quoth I, that the Archbishop of York, Dr. Williams, sometime Lord Keeper of England, was a Commander of the Forces for the Parliament in Wales? At which they were silent, and that Argument was at an end.

§ 202. When I told them that if they cast out all the Non-conformits, there would not be tolerable Ministers enow to supply the Congregations: Bishop Morley answered that so it was in the late Times, and that some Places had no Ministers at all, through all those Times of Usurpation: and named Aylesbury, which he knew to have had none upon his own knowledge. I told him that I never knew any such, and therefore I knew there were not many such in England: And if it were so, I hoped that he would not plead for such a Mischief by the Example of the Usurpers. But since, I have inquired of the Inhabitants about Aylesbury, and they unamously professed that it was notoriously false, and named me the Ministers that had been there successively, and usually two at once.

§ 203. Also the said Bishop, when I talked of silencing Ministers for things indifferent, told me, That we should remember how we did by them; and that we talked not then as now we do. I answered him, That I was confident there was no Man there present that had ever a hand in silencing any of them: For my own parts, I had been in Judgment for casting out the utterly Insufficient and notoriously Scandalous, indifferently of what Opinion or Side foever; but I had publicly written against the silencing or displacing any worthy Man for being against the Parliament: And if it had been otherwise, he should take warning by others Faults, and not imitate them, and do evil because Cromwell did so.

§ 204. Upon this, Dr. Walton Bishop of Chester said, Indeed Mr. Baxter did write against the Casting of us out: But, Mr. Baxter, did not you say, That if our Churches had no more than bare Liberty, as others had, without the compulsion of the Sword, that none but Drunkards would join in them. I answered, No, my Lord, I did not: I only said, that (as they had been ordered) if they had but equal liberty for Volunteers, they would be like Ale • houses, where many honest Men may come, but the number of worse Comers is so great, as maketh it dishonorable.] There is no impleading Men's Writings, unless the Book be opened, and the words and context well perused.

§ 205. Dr. Bates urged Dr. Gunning that on the fame reasons that they so imposed the Gross and Surplice, they might bring in Holy Water, and Lights, and abundance of such Ceremonies of Rome, which we have cast out. He answered, Yea, and so I think we ought to have more, and not fewer, if we do well, (or to that fence).

§ 206. They told us of the Antiquiry of Liturgies: And I earnestly entreated them to let true Antiquity be imitated by them: and desired any of them to prove that ever any Prince did impose one Form of Prayer or Liturgy, for Uniformity, on all the Churches in his Dominions: Yea, or upon any one Province, or Country under them: Or that ever any Council, Synod, or Patriarchs, or Metropolitans, did impose one Liturgy on all the Bishop and Churches under them. I proved to them not only from the instances of Basil, and the Church of Naeocesarea, but others, that every Bishop then chose what Forms he pleased for his own Church. They could deny none of all this: But Antiquity is nothing to them when it makes against them.

§ 207. Towards the end of our Meetings, Bishop Cosins, taking the Chair, told us, That a very worthy Person had offered unto his Superiors a Paper containing the way to our Reconciliation, which he thought so reasonable and sit, that he desired us to take them into our Consideration, and so delivered me the Paper. I asked him, from whom he expected an Answer: He said from me: I told him that he might well know that I would enter upon no new Debates, without the Consent of my Brethern present, and whether they would meddle in it, and undertake new Work without the Consent of our Brethern, who are absent, I could not tell; especially when long and wandering Discourses had already taken up almost all our time. But upon perusal of the Paper, I perceived that it was a cunning Snare for us; but advised our Brethern present that we might promise them an Answer by the next Morning, but only in the name of us three, and that our Brethern absent should not be judged to be concerned in it. This I the rather did, because I perceived it came by the notice of some above us, who would inquire after it, and that an Answer in Writing would be a better spending of our time, than that rambling Discourse which there we spent it in; where a multitude of Men would needs speak, and yet would be angry if they were answered. The Paper with the Answer is as follows.

Note here, That I offered to my Brethren two more Particulars as contrary to the Word of God: which were,

1. That none may have leave in Public Worship to use a more suitable orderly way; but all are confined to this Liturgy, which is so defective and disorderly(which we are even now ready to manifest if you will receive it.)

2. That none may be a Minister of the Gospel that dare not subject himself by an Oath of Obedience, to the Diocesans in that State of Government which they exercised in this Land, (contrary to the practice of all Antiquity).

These Ten Things I offered as contrary to the Word of God, but the two Brethren with me thought these two last were better left out, lest they occasion new Debates, though they judged them true.

§ 208. When I read and delivered these Papers, the Bishops were much displeased, that I should charge so many things on the Church as Sins: Where you may note the marvelous oscitancy of these men, that when they had treated with us so long, and received so many large Exceptions and Replys, and in all had heard us open the sinfulness of their way, they should yet imagine that we had accused their way but of inexpediency, and think to gratify themselves by such a poor device. But their main design was to divide us, while they set us upon distinguishing all their sins from their inexpediences; and they thought that one would take that for inexpedient only, which others took to be sin. And they considered not that we were now treating what should be imposed, and not what should be obeyed if it were imposed: and that we would charge Sin upon their Impositions, in many points which might lawfully be done when Imposed, rather than to forsake the Churches. And if I did the Church any Service in all these Debates, it was principally by frustrating their evil design, of dividing us; so that all the Snares that ever they could lay for us, never procured them just advantage, once truly to say, that we disagreed among ourselves. For though there were enow at a distance, who could not have agreed to all that we did, yet we so far left them out (though to the displeasure both of the Prelatists and them, that no discord was found in any of our Proposals or Debates): which cut some of them more to the heart, than all that else we did to their displeasure.

§ 209. By this time, our frequent crossing of their Expectations, I saw had made some of the Bishops angry: above all Bishop Morley, who over-ruled the whole business, and did interess himself in it deeplier than the rest, and was of a hotter Spirit and a readier Tongue. But that which displeased them most was the freedom of my Speeches to them, that is, that I spake to them as on terms of Equality as to the Cause; yet with all honorable Titles to their Persons: For I perceived that they had that eminency of Power and Interest, that the greatest Lord's were glad of their favor, did expect that the presence of so many of them should have awed us into such a silence, or cowardliness, as should have betrayed our Cause; or at least that their Vehemency, and Passions, and Interruptions should have put us out of Countenance; But I entreated them to give us leave, with the due honor of their Persons, to use that necessary liberty of Speech to them, as beseemed such as are very confident that they plead for the Cause of God, and the happiness and healing of a bleeding Church, and that upon the warrant of the King's Commission: And I must say, that though they frowned at my freedom of Speech, they never once accused me of any unmannerly or irreverent Language.

§ 210. When we were going to our Disputation, Dr. Pierce asked whether he that was none of the three deputed by them to that Service, might join with the rest: And we told that we cared not how many joined; the more the better: for if any one of them could see any Evidence of Truth which the rest did overlook, it would redound to our Benefit, who desired nothing but the Victory of Truth.

§ 211. And before he began with them, he would fain have had one bout with me himself: Whereas I moved them to some Christian Charity to all those Consciencious Christians, that were to be put away from the Communion of the Church, if they did but scruple the lawfulness of kneeling in the reception of the Sacrament (though I still professed to them that I held it not unlawful myself, when the Sacrament could not be otherwise had) Dr. Pierce offered himself to a Disputation, to prove that (let them be never so many) it is an Act of Mercy to them to put them all from the Communion of the Church: I easily perceived what advantage his Confidence and Passion gave me, and I entreated him to try his skill, but his Brethren would not give him leave: I earnestly entreated them to give him leave but to try one Argument, but I could not prevail with them; being wiser than to suffer his Passion to expose their Cause to Laughter and Contempt: But yet he could not forbear to cast out his medium, and tell us how he would have argued; viz. That they that receive the Sacrament, being in judgment against kneeling in the Act of Receiving, do receive it Schismatically, and so to their own Damnation: Ergo it is an Act of Charity to keep them from the Communion of the Church. Where note, That our Dispute was only whether the Legistators should by Laws or Canons keep them away, and not whether a Pastor, supposing such Laws existent, should keep them away: And therefore by making it damnable Schism antecedently to our Laws, he must needs mean that some Foreign Laws (or General Councils) do prove it Schism, or else the Custom of the Universal Church. And as to the first, I did at large there prove that the Twentieth Canon of the Council at Nice, and the Council. Trull. and the most ancient Writers, do unanimously decree against kneeling, and make it universally unlawful (and that by Apostolical Tradition) [to adore kneeling] on any Lord's Day in the Year, and on any other Day between Easter and Whitsunday; and that no General Council hath reversed this, till mere Disuse and contrary Custom did it. And for Custom, the Protestant Churches concur not in that Custom, nor are they Schismatics for differing from the Papists and others that do so; nor is it better for them all to be without any Church Communion, than not to kneel in the Act of Receiving: Nor do the Papists themselves make every Man a Schismatic that followeth not the Custom of their Church in every particular Gesture, unless he separate from their Church itself; much less do they pronounce Damnation on all such. But if it were the Law of our own Land or Church which he thought made it Schism, then he might as well have so argued for sitting or standing, and against kneeling, viz. [That it is Charity to make a Law is keep all from Church • Communion that will kneel, because when such a Law is made, it is damnable Schism to kneel]. But the very truth is, I perceived so little Compassion to Souls in the zealous and swaying Managers of these Controversies, and so little regard of the Scruples and Tenderness of Godly People who were afraid of Sinning, a • that I scarce thought among Protestants there had been any such. Whether they would have abated one Ceremony if they had had an hundred more, to keep all the Dissenters in three Nations from being cast out of the Ministry and Church, I know not; but of those they have they would not abate one: which made me oft think, that their Spirits are much more like the Papists than their Formal Worship and Discipline is; so much do they agree in destroying Men for their Opinions and Ceremonies sake: and in Building the Tombs of the Prophets, and over-honoring the dead Saints, while they go on to hate and destroy the living. And it made me oft remember Bishop Hall 's Character of an Hyprocrite [who boweth at the Name of Jesus, and sweareth by the Name of God, and would set all the World on fire for a Circumstances]. And it made me remember what that learned godly Minister Mr Spinage hath oft told me, and many others, and is still ready to justify upon Oath, that being heretofore familiar with this Mr. Thomas Pierce, and saying once to him; [These Men that you so abhor, are very godly Men, and have much Communion with God] he brake out into this Answer, [A pou on this Communion with God]. And it made me think of Augustine 's Description of the sottish Worldlings, [that had far rather thus were one Star fewer in Heaven, than one Cow or one Tree the fewer in their Grounds:] So had these Men rather One thousand eight hundred godly faithful Ministers were silenced at once, and a Hundred thousand godly Christians kept out of the Churches Communion and persecuted, than one Ceremony should be cast out of the Church, or left indifferent, or one Line reformed in their Common-Prayers.

§ 212. But when Dr. Pierce could not have leave to take up his Dispute, he sat upon me with kind Persuasions; and Bishop Morley (and he) first told me, that it was strange I should make such a stir for other Men's Liberty to forbear kneeling in the act of Receiving, when I professed myself to take it to be lawful: I told them that they might perceive then, that I argued not from Interest and Opinion; but from Charity, and for Love and Peace. They told me that it was we that had filleds the Peoples Heads with these Scruples, and then when we should dispossess them of them, we pleaded for their Liberty: If I would but teach the People better, they would quickly be brought to Obedience, and would need no Liberty. I told the Bishop, that he was much mistaken, both in saying that we put these Scruples into their Heads, and in thinking that my Power with them was so great, as that I alone could preach them out. He replied with great Confidence, that if I would but endeavor in good earnest to satisfy them, they would quickly be satisfied. I told him that he had both before the King, and here, declared that no Man had written better about the Ceremonies than I had; and had produced my Book: and therefore I thought he confuted himself: For I wrote that Book before the King came in, even in the he • of the Nations Zeal against Ceremonies; and how then is it like, that I put those Scruples into their Heads when I wrote against them? And I thought Writing was the publickest manner of Teaching, where I spake to many thousands who could never hear my Voice: How then could he say that I wrote so well, and yet did not reach the People what I wrote? But I told him that he must pardon me, that in the Pulpit I found greater matters to do than to preach for Ceremonies, and could never think that such kind of preaching tended most to the saving of Men's Souls. And I many times told him and the rest, that I perceived that it was like to be a great Wrong to us, and a greater to themselves and the Kingdom, that they mistakingly imagined our Power to be greater with the People than it is, and that they think we could reduce them at our Pleasure to Conformity, when it is no such matter; and that they imagine that the Godly People who dissent from them, do pin their Religion so absolutely on our Sleeves, and take up all their Opinions on trust from us: Whereas I assured him, that he will find by Experience that so many of them know why they hold what they hold, and do it so purely for Conscience sake, that if all we should turn and set against them, there would so many thousands continue in their Opinions, as I would not be a Persecutor of, or excommunicate for more than ever their Lordships will get by it. But the Bishop expressed more confidence still, that I could reclaim them myself if I were but willing, and that they only followed the Opinions of their Teachers. I entreated him again to tell me, why then they did not follow my Opinion which he himself saith I have published in Print. Hereupon Dr. Pierce would needs lovingly desire that he and I might but go about the Country and preach People to Conformity, and he did not doubt but they would quickly be reduced. I told him that for his part, I knew not how powerful his preaching might be, but I could expect no such Success of mine; and I marvelled why he had not recovered all the Country before this Day, having had so many Years time to have gone about and preached them to Conformity, if he would have used it. He answered, That he had recovered all his own Parish. I told him, That if he had done so by all others, there would have been no need of all this Trouble: But I often told the Bishop and him, that they knew that though I took not kneeling to be unlawful, yet I took their Subscriptions and Oath of canonical Obedience, and other things to be unlawful; and I perceived that they intended no Abatements, and consequently that they intend the silencing of me, and all that are of my Mind (for all their Commendation of my Writing on that Subject): And I asked them then, how I can go about to preach for them, when they have first silenced me? Or if they would be so favorable to forbear me till I had done preaching for their Ceremonies, it was but an odd kind of motion for them to make [come preach for our Ceremonies so long, and then you shall never preach more;] and an odd Employment for me to undertake, to go about to persuade People to obey them in a Ceremony or two, that are intended when that is done, to forbid me and others to preach the Gospel, and the People to enjoy their Peace upon other Accounts; and no doubt to call us Schismatics when they do it. This Speech they were offended at, and said, that I sought to make them odious, by representing them as cruel, and Persecutors, as if they intended to silence and cast out so many. And it was one of the greatest matters of Offence against me, that I foreknew and foretold them what they were about to do. They said, that this was but to stir up the Fears of the People, and cause them to disaffect the Government, by talking of silencing us, and casting out the People from Communion. I told them that either they do intend such a Course or not: If they do, why should they think us criminal for knowing it? If not, what need had we of all these Disputes with them? which were only to persuade them not to cast out the Ministers and the People on these Accounts. And it was but a few Weeks after this that Bishop Morley himself did silence me, forbidding me to preach in his Diocese, who now took it so heinously that I did foretell it: Yet, because the Hearers knew not what would be, their Party justified them, and concurred in censuring me as uncharitable for speaking to hardly of them, and this maketh me remember that thus I have formerly been blamed by all, whose Miscarriages I foretold: When I told many both of the Parliament and Country, what the Army did intend to do against them (and many others more particularly foretold it); the Army was angry with (them and) me, and accused us of making them odious by our Slanders (and cast out many Members of the Parliament on that Pretence); and yet within a few Weeks they did the very things that we foretold: So unanimous are all Men that have ill Designs, in going the same way to their Accomplishment; and so dangerous is it to foreknow what cruel Men are about to do.

§ 213. You have had the Substance of our wandering Discourses; you are next to have our as unprofitable Disputes: In which all was to be managed in Writing ex tempore, by Dr. Pierson, Dr. Gunning, and Dr. Sparrow, with Dr. Pierce on one side; and Dr. Bates, Dr. Iacomb, and myself on the other side; we withdrawing into the next Room, and leaving the Bishops and them together, while we wrote our part: And we began with the Imposition of Kneeling, upon two Accounts, (though I took the Gesture itself as lawful) 1. Because I knew I had the fullest Evidence, and the greatest Authority of Antiquity or Church-Law and Custom against them. 2. Because the Penalty is so immediate and great (to put all that kneel not, from the Communion): And it was only the Penalty, and to the Imposition on that Penalty, which we disputed against.

§ 214. Oppon. Arg. 1. To enjoin all Ministers to deny the Communion to all that dare not kneel in the Reception of the Sacrament on the Lord's days is sinful.

But the Common-Prayer-Book and Canons enjoin all Ministers to deny the Communion to all that dare not kneel in the Reception of the Sacrament on the Lord's Days.

Ergo the Common-Prayer-Book and Canons, do (or contain) that which is sinful.

Oppon. We prove both: 1. Prob. Major. To enjoin Ministers to deny the Communion to Men, because they dare not go against the Practice of the Apostles, and the universal Church for many hundred Years after them, and the Canons of the most venerable Councils is sinful.

But to enjoin Ministers to deny Communion to all that dare not kneel in the Reception of the Sacrament on the Lord's Days, is to enjoin them to deny Communion to them, because they dare not go against the Practice of the Apostles, and the universal Church for many hundred Years after them, and the Canons of the most venerable Councils.

Ergo. To enjoin all Ministers to deny Communion to all that dare not kneel in the Reception of the Sacrament on the Lord's Day is sinful.

Prob. Minor. The Words of the Common-Prayer-Book and Canons prove it.

§ 215. Here we told them, That for the Proof of both Propositions denied, the Presence of the Book is necessary, which we desired them to procure us; but they were not fatcht. And first we had a large Debate about the Words of the Common-Prayer, [He shall deliver it them kneeling on their knees ]: Dr. Pierson confessed, that the Canons did reject them that kneel not, from the Communion; but these Words of the Common-Prayer-Book do not: But they only include Kneelers, but exclude not others. We answered them, that either the Common-Prayer-Book doth exclude them that kneel not, or it doth not: If it doth, the Proposition is true: If it do not, then we shall willingly let fall this Argument against it, and proceed to another: Therefore I desired them but to tell us openly their own judgment of the Sense of the Book; for we professed to argue against it only on Supposition of the exclusive Sense.

§ 216. Hereupon unavoidably they fell into Discord among themselves: Dr. Pierson, who was to defend the Book, told us his judgment was, that the Sense was not exclusive: Bishop Morley, who was to offend the Nonconformists, gave his judgment for the exclusive Sense; viz. That the Minister is to give it to Kneelers, and no others. So that we professed to them, That we could not go any further, till they agreed among themselves, of their Sense.

§ 217. And for the other Minor denied, though the Books were not present, I alleged the 20th Canon Council. Nicaen. & Council. Trull. and Tertullian oft, and Epiphanius, with the common Consent of ancient Writers, who tell us, it was the Tradition and Custom of the universal Church, not to adore by Genuflexion on any Lord's Day, or on any Day between Easter and Whitsuntide. Ergo, not so to adore in taking the Sacrament.

§ 218. Bishop Morley answered, That this was the Custom but only between Easter and Whitsuntide, and therefore it being otherwise the rest of the Year, was more against us. I answered him that he mistook, where a multitude of Evidences might rectify him, it was on every Lord's Day through the Year, that this Adoration by Genuflexion was forbidden: though on other Week-days it was only between Easter and Whitsuntide.

§ 219. Next he and the rest insisted on it, that these Canons and Customs extended only to Prayer. To which I answered, That 1. The plain words are against them, where some speak of all Adoration, and others more largely of the public Worship, and offered to bring them full Proof from the Books, as soon as they would give me time. 2. And if it were only in Prayer, it is all one to our Case: For the Liturgy giveth the Sacrament with Words of Prayer; and it is the common Argument brought for kneeling, that it's suitable to the conjunct Prayer. And I told them over and over, that Antiquity was so clear in the point, that I desired all might be laid on that, and I might have time to bring them in my Testimonies. But thus that Argument was turned off, and the Evening broke off that part of the Dispute.