Acts and Monuments Volume 2 Part 1

Then the L. Chancellor as it were amazed, and something troubled, spake thus to him in effect: that of long time he had been imprisoned justly for his seditious behavior at Paul's cross, the xiii. of August. an. 1553. for his false preaching and arrogancy, taking upon him to preach without authority. But now (quoth he) the time of mercy is come, and therefore the Queens highness mynding to offer unto you mercy, hath by us sent for you, to declare and give the same, if so be you will with us return: and if you will do as we have done, you shall find as we have found, I warrant you. This was the sum of his words, and in manner the same words which he spake.

To these words John Bradford spake (after reverend obeisance made) in this manner. My Lord & Lord's all, I confess that I have been long imprisoned, & (with humble reverence be it spokē) unjustly, for that I did nothing seditiously, falsely, or arrogantly, in word or fact, by preaching or otherwise, but rather sought truth, peace, and all godly quietness, as an obedient & faithful subject, both in going about to save the Bish. of Bathe now, then M. Bourne, the preacher at the Cross, and in preaching for quietness accordingly.

At these words, or rather before he had fully finished, the said L. Chancellor something snuffed, and spake with an admiration, that there was a loud lie: for (quoth he) the fact was seditious, as you my L. of London can bear witness.

You say true my Lord: I saw him with mine own eyes, when he took upon him to rule and lead the people malapartly, thereby declaring that he was the author of the sedition.

My Lord's, notwithstanding my Lord Byshope seeing and saying, yet the truth I have told, as one day my Lord God almighty shall r • ueale to all the world, whē we shall all come & appear before him: In the mean season, because I cannot be believed of you, I must and am ready to suffer, as now your sayings be, what so ever God shall license you to do unto me.

I know thou hast a glorious tongue, and goodly shows thou makest: but all is lies thou speakest. And again, I have not forgotten howe stubborn thou wast when thou wast before us in the Tower, whereupon thou wast committed to prison concerning religion, I have not forgotten thy behavior and talk, wherthrough worthelye thou hast been kept in prison, as one that would have done more hurt then I will speak of.

My Lord, as I said, I say again, that I stand as before you, so before God, and one day we shall all stand before him: the truth then will be the truth, though now you will not so take it. Yea my Lord, I dare say, that my Lord of Bath M. Bourne will witness with me, that I sought his safeguard with the peril of mine own life, I thank God therefore.

That is not true: for I myself did see thee take upon thee too much,

No, I took nothing upon me undesired, and that of Mayster Bourne himself, as if he were here present, I dare say he would affirm. For he desired me both to help him to pacifye the people, and also not to leave him till he was in safety. And as for my behavior in the Tower, and talk before your honors, if I did or said anything that did not beseem me, if your Lordships would tell me wherein it was, I should and would shortly make you answer.

Well, to leave this matter: how sayest thou now? Wilt thou return again, and do as we have done, & thou shalt receive the Queens mercy and pardon?

My Lord, I desire mercy with God's mercy, but mercy with God's wrath, God keep me from: Although (I thank God therefore) my conscience doth not accuse me, that I did speak anything wherefor I should need to receive the Queens mercy or pardon. For all that ever I did or spake, was both agreeing to God's Laws, amd the laws of the Realm at that present, and did make much to quietness.

Well, if thou make this babbling, rolling in thy eloquent tongue, and yet being altogether ignorant & vainglorious, and wilt not receive mercy offered to thee, know for truth that the Queen is minded to make a purgation of all such as thou art.

The Lord before whom I stand, as well as before you, knoweth what vainglory I have sought, and seek in this behalf: his mercy I desire, and also would be glad of the Queens favor, to live as a subject without clog of conscience. But otherwise the Lord's mercy is better to me then life. And I know to whom I have committed my life, even into his hands which will keep it, so that no man may take it away before it be his pleasure. There are xii. hours in the day, and as long as they last, so long shall no man have power theron. Therefore his good will be done: life in his displeasure is worse then death, and death in his true favor, is true life.

I know well enough that we shall have glorious talk enough of thee: be sure therefore, that as thou hast deceived the people with false and deuilishe doctrine, so shalt thou receive.

I have not deceived the people, nor taught any other doctrine, then by God's grace I am, and hope shall be ready to confirm with my life. And as for the deuilishnes and falseness in the doctrine, I would be sory you could so prove it.

Why, tell me what you say by the ministration of y ^e Communion, as now you know i • is?

My Lord, here I must desire of your Lordship and of all your honors a question, before I dare make you an answer to any interrogatory or question, wherewith you now begin. I have been six times sworn that I shall in no case consent to the practicing of any jurisdiction, or any authority on the Bishoppe of Rome's behalf within this Realm of England. Now before God I humbly pray your honors to tell me whether you ask me this question by his authority, or no? If you do, I dare not, nor may answer you anything in his authority, which you shall demand of me, except I would be forsworn, which God forbid.

Hast thou been sworn six times? what office hast thou borne?

For sooth I was thrice sworn in Cambridge, when I was admitted Mayster of Art, when I was admitted fellow of Penbroke hall, & when I was there, the Uisitors came thither, and sware the Uniuersitye. Agayne, I was sworn when I entered into the Ministerye, when I had a Prebend given me, and when I was sworn to serve the king a little before his death.

Tush, Herodes oaths a man should make no conscience at.

But my Lord, these were no Herodes oaths no unlawful oaths, but oaths according to God's word, as you yourself have well affirmed in your book De vera obedientia.

My Lord's (quoth another of the Counsel that stood by the table, Mayster Rochester I ween) I never knew wherefor this man was in prison before now: but I see well that it had not been good that this man had been abroad,) What the cause was that he was put in prison, I know not: but I now well know that not without a cause he was and is to be kept in prison.

Yea it was reported this Parliament time by the Earl of Darbye, that he hath done more hurt by Letters, and exhorting those that have come to him, in Religion, then ever he did whē he was abroad by preaching. In his letters he curseth all that teach any false doctrine (for so he calleth that which is not according to that he taught) and most heartily exhorteth them to whom he writeth to continue still in that they have received by him, and such like as he is. All which words diverse of the Coūsell affirmed. Wherunto the said M. Bourne added, saying: how say you sir, have you not thus seditiously writ̄ and exhorted the people?

I have not written, nor spoken anything seditiously neither (I thank God therefore) have I admitted any sedious cogitation, nor I trust never shall do.

Yea, but thou hast written letters.

Why speakest thou not? Hast thou not written as he saith?

That I have written, I have written.

Lord God, what an arrogant and stubborn boy is this, that thus stoutly and dallyingly behaveth himself before the Queens Counsel? Wherat one looked upon another with disdaynfull countenaunces.

My Lord's and Maysters, the Lord God which is, and will be judge to us all, knoweth, that as I am certain I stand now before his majesty: so with reverence in his sight I stand before you, & unto you accordingly in words and gesture I desire to behave myself. If you otherwise take it, I doubt not but God in his time will reveal it. In the mean season I shall suffer with all due obedience your sayings and doings too, I hope.

These be gay glorious words of reverence: but as in all other things, so herein also thou doest nothing but lie.

Well, I would God the author of truth, and abhorrer of lies would pull my tongue out of my head before you all, and show a terrible judgment on me here present, if I have purposed, or do purpose to lie before you, whatsoever you shall ask me.

Why thē doest thou not answer? Hast thou written such letters as here is objected against thee?

As I said, my Lord, that I have written, I have written, I stand now before you, which either can lay my Letters to my charge or no: if you lay any thing to my charge that I have written, if I deny it, I am then a liar.

We shall never have done with thee, I perceive now: be short, be short, wilt thou have mercy?

I pray God give me his mercy, and if therewith you will extend yours, I will not refuse it, but otherwise I will none.

Here now was much ado, one speaking this, and another that of his arrogancy, in refusing the Queens pardon, which she so lovingly did offer unto him: whereto Bradford answered thus.

My Lord's, if I may live as a quiet Subject without clog of conscience, I shall heartily thank you for your pardon: if otherwise I behave myself, then I am in danger of the law: in the mean season I ask no more, but the benefit of a Subject, till I be convinced of transgression. I • I cannot have this, as hitherto I have not had, God's good will be done.

Uppon these words my Lord Chauncelloure began a long process of the false doctrine wherewith the people were deceived in the days of Kyng Edward, and so turned the ende of his talk to Bradford, saying: Howe sayest thou?

My Lord, the doctrine taught in king Edward's days, was God's pure Religion, the which as I then believed, so do I now more believe it then ever I did, & therein I am more confirmed and ready to declare it by God's grace, even as he will, to the world, then I was when I first came into prison.

What religion mean you in king Edwards days? What year of his reign?

Forsooth even the same year (my Lord) that the king died, & I was a Preacher. Here wrote Secretary Bourne I wote not what.

Now after a little pausing, my Lord Chancellor beginneth again to declare, that the doctrine taught in king Edward's days, was heresy, using for probation & demonstration thereof, no scripture nor reason, but this: that it ended with treason and rebellion, so that (quoth he) the very end were enough to improve that doctrine to be naught.

Ah my Lord, that you could enter into God's Sanctuary, and mark the end of this present doctrine that you now so magnify.

What meanest thou by that? I ween we shall have a snatch of rebellion even now.

My Lord. I mean no such ende as you would gather: I mean an end which no man seeth, but such as enter into God's Sanctuary. If a man look on present things, he will soon deceive himself.

Here now did my Lord Chancellor offer again mercy, and Bradford answered, as before: Mercy with God's mercy should be welcome, but otherwise he would none. Whereupon the Lord Chancellor did ring a little bell, belike to call in somebody, for there was present none in manner, but only those before named, and the Byshoppe of Worcester. Now when one was come in: it is best (quoth Mayster Secretary Bourne) that you give the keeper a charge of this fellow. So was the under Marshall called in.

Ye shall take this man to you, and keep him close without conference with any man, but by your knowledge, and suffer him not to write any Letters. &c. for he is of another manner of charge unto you now, then he was before. And so they departed, Bradford looking as cheerfully as any man could do, declaring thereby even a desire to give his life for confirmation of that he had taught and written.

Where before the xxij. of Ianuarye, the said Bradford was called before them (said he) and they offered unto him the Queens pardon, although he had contemned the same, and further said, that he would stiffly and stoutly maintain & defend the erroneous doctrine taught in the days of K. Edward the sixth: yet in consideration that the Queens highness was wonderful merciful, they thought good eftsoons to offer the same mercy again, before it were too late: therefore advise you well (said he) there is yet space and grace before we so proceed, that you be committed to y ^e • ecular power: as we must do and will do, if you will not follow the example of master Barloe and master Cardmaker, whom he there commended, adding Oratoriously amplifications to move the said Bradford to yield to the religion presently set forth.

After the Lord Chauncellours long talk, Bradford began on this sort to speak: My Lord, and my Lord's all as now I stand in your sight before you, so I humbly beseech your honors to consider, that you sit in the seat of the Lord, who (as David doth witness) is in the congregations of Judges, and sitteth in the midst of them judging: and as you would your place to be now of us taken as God's place, so demonstrate yourselves to follow him in your sitting, that is, seek no guiltless blood, nor hunt not by questions to bring into the snare, thē which are out of the same. At this present I stand before you gilty or giltles: if gilty, then proceed and give sentence accordingly: if giltles, thē give me the benefit of a subject, which hitherto I could not have.

Here the Lord Chancellor replied, and said, that the said Bradford began with a true sentence: Deus stetit in Synagoga. &c But (quoth he) this and all thy gesture declareth but hypocrisy and vain glory. And further he made much ado to purge himself, that he sought no guiltless blood, and so began a long process how that Bradfordes fact at Paul's Cross was presumptuous, arrogāt, and declared a taking upon him to lead the people, which could not but turn to much disquietness, in that thou (speaking to Bradford) wast so pre • ract and stout in religion at that present. For the which, as thou wast then committed to prison, so hitherto thou hast been kept in prison, where thou hast written letters to no little hurt to the Queens people, as by the report of the Earl of Darby in the Parliament house was credibly declared. And to this he added, that the said Bradford did stubbernely behave himself the last time he was before them: and therefore not for any other thing now I demand of thee (quoth he) but of and for thy doctrine and religion.

My Lord where you accuse me of hypocrisy & vain glory, I must, and will leave it to the Lord's declaration, which one day will open yours and my truth, and hearty meanings: in the mean season I will content myself with the testimony of mine own conscience, which if it yield to hypocrisy, could not but have God to be my foe also: and so both God and man were against me. As for my fact at Paul's Cross, and behavior before you at the Tower, I doubt not but God will reveal it to my comfort. For if ever I did thing, which God used to public benefit, I think that my deed was one, and yet for it I have been and am kept of long time in prison. And as for letters and religion, I answer, as I did the last time I was before you.

There diddest thou say stubbornly and malaper • lie, that thou wouldst manly maintain the erroneous doctrine in K. Edwards days.

My Lord, I said the last time I was before you, that I had six times taken an oth that I should never consent to the practicing of any jurisdiction on the Bish. of Rome's behalf, and therefore durst I not answer to any thing that should be demanded so, least I should be forsworn, which God forbid. Howbeit, saving mine oath, I said that I was more confirmed in the doctrine set forth publicly in the days of K. Edward, then ever I was before I was put in prison: and so I thought I should be, and think yet still I shall be found more ready to give my life as God will, for the confirmation of the same.

I remember well that thou madest such ado about needles matter, as though the oath against the Bish. of Rome were so great a matter. So others have done before thee, but yet not in such sort as thou hast done, for thou pretendest a conscience in it, which is nothing else but mere hypocrisy.

My conscience is known to the Lord: and whether I deal herein hipocritically, or no, he knoweth. As I said therefore then my Lord, so say I again now: that for fear lest I should be perjured, I dare not make answer to anything you shall demand of me, if my answering should consent to the confirming or practicing of any jurisdiction for the Bishop of Rome here in England.

Why, diddest thou begin to tell that we are Dij and sit in God's place, and now wilt thou not make us an answer?

My Lord, I said, you would have your place taken of us now, as God's place: and therefore I brought forth that piece of scripture, that ye might the more be admonished to follow God and his ways at this present, who seeth us all, and well perceiveth, whether of conscience I pretend this matter of the oth, or no.

No, all men may well see thine hopocrisy, for if for thine oaths sake thou diddest not answer, then wouldest thou not have spokē as thou diddest, & have answered me at the first: but now men well perceive, that this is but a starting hole to hide thyself in, because thou darest not answer, & so wouldest escape, blinding the simple people's eyes, as though of conscience you did all you do.

That which I spake at the first, was not a replication or an answer to that you spake to me: and therefore I needed not to lay for me mine oath. For I thought you would have more weighed what I did speak, then you did: but when I perceived you did not consider it, but came to ask matter, whereto by answering I should consent to the practicing of Jurisdiction on the Byshoppe of Rome's behalf here in England, and so be forsworn: then of conscience and simplicitye I spake as I do yet again speak, that I dare not for conscience sake answer you. And therefore I seek no starting hoales▪ nor go about to blind the people as God knoweth. For if you of your honors shall tell me that you do not ask me any thing whereby mine answering should consent to the practicing of the Byshoppe of Rome's Jurisdiction, ask me wherein you will, and you shall here that I will answer 〈1 page duplicate〉 you as flatlye as ever any did that came before you. I am not afraid of death, I thank God: for I look and have looked for nothing else at your hands of long time, but I am afraid when death cometh, I should have matter to trouble my conscience by the guiltiness of perjury, & therefore do I answer as I do.

These be gay glorious words, full of hypocrisy and vain glory, and yet doest thou not know that I sit here as Bishop of Winchester in mine own Dioces, and therefore may do this which I do, and more too?

My Lord, give me leave to ask you this question, that my conscience may be out of doubt in this matter. Tell me here Coram Deo, before God, all this audience being witness, that you demand of me nothing whereby mine answering should consent to and confirm the practice of Jurisdiction for the Bishop of Rome here in England, & your honor shall hear me give you as flat and as plain answers briefly, to what so ever you shall demand me, as ever any did.

Here the Lord Chancellor was wonderfully offended, and spake much, how that the Bishop of Rome's authority needed no confirmation of Bradfordes answering, nor no such as he was, and turned his talk to the people, how that Bradford followed crafty covetous Marchauntes, which because they would lend no money to their neighbors when they were in need, would say that they had sworn oft that they would never lend anymore money, because their detters had so oft deceived them. Even so thou (quoth he to Bradford) doest at this present, to cast a myst in the people's eyes, to blear them with an heresy (which is greater and more hurtful to the commō wealth then the other is) pretend thine oath, whereby the people might make a conscience, whereas they should not. Why speakest thou not?

My Lord, as I said, I say again: I dare not answer you for fear of perjury, from which God defend me: or else I could tell you that there is a difference between oaths: Some be according to faith and charity, as the oath against the Bishop of Rome, some be against faith & charity: as this: to deny by oath my help to my brother in his need.

Here my Lord Chancellor again was much offended, still saying, that Bradford durst not answer and further made much ado to prove the oath against the Bishop of Rome, that it was against charity.

But Bradford answered, that how so ever his honor took him, yet was he assured of his meaning, that no fear but the fear of perjury made him unwilling to answer. For as for my death my lord (quoth he) as I know there at 12. hours in the day, so with the Lord my time is appointed. And when it shall be his good time, then shall I depart hence: but in the mean season I am safe enough, though all the people had sworn my death. Into his hands I have committed it, and do: his good will be done. And saving mine oth, I will answer you in this behalf that the oth against the Bishop of Rome was not, nor is not against charity.

How prove you that.

Forsooth, I prove it thus.

Is it not against God's word that a man should take a king to be supreme head of the church in his Realm?

No saving still mine oath, it is not against God's word, but with it, being taken in such sense, as it may be well takē: that is, attributing to the kings power the sovereignty in all his dominion.

I pray you, where find you that?

I find it in many places, but specially in the 13. to the Romans, where S. Paul writeth: Every soul to be subject to the superior power ▪ but what power? Quae gladium gestat: The power verily which beareth the sword, which is not the spiritual, but the the temporal power. As Chrysost. full well noteth upon the same place, which your honor knoweth better then I. He (Chrysostom I mean) there plainly showeth that Bishops, Prophets, and Apostles are obedient to the temporal Magistrates.

Here yet more the Lord Chauncelloure was stirred, and said, how that Bradford went about to deny all obedience to the Queen for his oath: and so (quoth he) this man would make God's word a warrant of disobedience, for he will answer the queen on this sort, that whē she saith, now swear to the Bishop of Rome, or obey his authority: No (will he say) for I am forsworn, & to make the Queen no Queen.

No, I go not about to deny all obedience to the Queens highness, but denying obedience in this part, if she should demand it. For I was sworn to Kyng Edward, not simply, that is, not only concerning his own person, but also concerning his successors, & therefore in denying to do the quenes request herein, I deny not her authority, nor become disobedient.

Yes that thou doest: and so he began to tell a long tale, how if a man should make an oth to pay to me an hundred pounds by such a day, and the man to whom it was due would forgive the debt, the debtor would say. No, you cannot do it, for I am forsworn then.

Here Bradford desired my Lord Chancellor not to trifle it, saying, that he wondered his honor would make solemn oaths made to God, trifles in that sort: and make so great a matter concerning vows (as they call it) made to the Bishop for Marriage of Priests.

At these words the Lord Chancellor was much offended, and said, he did not trifle: but (quoth he) thou goest about to deny obedience to the Queen, which now requireth obedience to the Bishop of Rome.

No, my Lord, I do not deny obedience to the queen, if you would discern between Genus and Species. Because I may not obey in this: Ergo, I may not obey in the other, is no good reason. As if a man let or sell a piece of his inheritance, yet this notwithstanding, all his inheritance is not let or sold: & so in this case all obedience I deny not, because I deny obedience in this branch.

I will none of these similitudes.

I would not use them, if that you went not about to persuade the people, that I mean that which I never meant: for I myself not only mean obedience, but will give ensample of all most humble obedience, to y ^e queenes highness, so long as she requireth not obedience against God.

No, no, all men may see your meaning well enough. There is no man though he be sworn to the king that doth therefore break his oath, if he afterwards be sworn to the French king and to the Emperor.

It is true my lord: but the cases be not like. For here is an exception: thou shalt not swear to y ^e bishop of Rome at any time. If in like manner we were sworn: thou shalt not serve the Emperor. &c. you see there were some alteratiō and more doubt. But I beseech your honor remember what ye yourself have written, answering the objections here against in your book De vera obedientia: Vincat modo diuini verbi veritas. i. Let God's word and the reason thereof bear the bell away.

Here the Lord Chauncelloure was thoroughly moved, and said still, how that Bradford had written seditious letters, and perverted the people thereby, & did stoutly stand, as though he would defend the erroneous doctrine in king Edward's time, against all men: and now (quoth he) he saith, he dare not answer.

I have written no seditious letters. I have not perverted the people, but that which I have writ̄ & spoken, that will I never deny, by God's grace. And where your Lordship saith, that I dare not answer you: that all men may know I am not afraid, saving mine oath, ask me what you will, and I will plainly make you answer by God's grace, although I now see my life lieth thereon. But Oh Lord, into thy hands I committee it: come what come will, only sanctify thy name in me, as in an instrument of thy grace. Amen. Now ask what you will, and you shall see I am not afraid, by God's grace flatly to answer.

Well then, how say you to the blessed sacrament? Do you not believe there Christ to be present concerning his natural body?

My Lord, I do believe that Christ is corporally present at and in the due administration of the sacrament. By this word (corporally) I mean that Christ is there present corporally unto faith.

Unto faith? we must have many mo words to make it more plain.

You shall so: but first give me leave to speak two words.

Speak on.

I have been now a year and almost three quarters in Prison, and of all this time you never questioned with me hereabout, when I might have spoken my conscience frankly without peril: but now have you a law to hang up and put to death, if a man answer freely, & not to your appetite: and so now you come to demand this question. Ah my Lord, Christ used not this way to bring men to faith. No more did the Prophets or Apostles. Remember what Bernard writeth to Eugenius the pope: Apostolos lego stetisse iudicandos, sedisse iudicantes non lego. Hoc erit, illud fuit. &c. that is, I read, that the Apostles stood to be judged, but I read not, that they sat to judge. This shall be: that was. &c.

Here the Lord Chancellor was appalled, as it seemed, and said most gently, that he used not this means. It was not my doing (quoth he) although some there be, that think this to be the best way. For I for my part have been challenged for being too gentle oftentimes. Which thing the Bishop of London confirmed, and so did almost all the audience, that he had been ever to mild and too gentle.

At which words Bradford spake thus. My Lord, I pray you stretch out your gentleness, that I may feel it, for hitherto I never felt it.

As soon as ever he had spoken thus, the Lord chancelor, belike, thinking that Bradford would have had mercy and pardon, said, that with all his heart, not only he, but the Queens highness would stretch out mercy, if with them he would return.

Return my Lord? God save me from that going back: I mean it not so, but I mean, that I was three quarters of a year in the Tower: you forbad▪ me paper, pen, and ynke, and never in all that time, nor sithens did I feel any gentleness from you. I have rather hitherto found, as I looked for extremitye. And I thank God that I perceive now ye have kept me in prison thus long, not for any matter you had, but for matter you would have. God's good will be done.

Here was now diverse telling my Lord it was dinner time. And so he rose up, leaving Bradford speaking, and saying that in the after noon they would speak more with him. And so was he had into the Uestry, and was there all that day till dark night, and so was conveyed again to prison.

In the mean time, about iv. of the clock the same after noon, a gentleman called Mayster Thomas Hussey of Lincolneshyre, which was once an Officer in the Duke of Northfolkes house, did come into the Reuestrye to inquire for one Stoning: and when it was answered him by the vndermarshals officers of the Kings Benche, that there was none such, he entered into the house, and took acquayntance of John Bradford saying, that he would common and speak with him the next morning for old acquayntance.

The next morning about 7. of the clock, this gentleman came into the chamber wherein John Bradford did lie, and being with him, he began a long Oration, how that of love & old acquayntāce he came unto him to speak that which he would further utter. You did (said he) so wonderfully behave yourself before the Lord Chancellor and other Bishops yesterday, that even the veriest enemies you have, did see that they have no matter against you: & therefore I advise you speaking (as though it came of his own good will without making any other man privy, or any other procuring him, as he said) this day (for anon you shall be called before them again) to desire a time and men to confer withal, so shall all men think a wonderful wisdom, gravity and godliness in you: and by this means you shall escape present danger, which else is nearer then you beware of. To this John Bradford answered: I neither can nor will make any such request. For thē shall I give occasion to the people & to all other to think that I doubt of the Doctrine which I confess: the which thing I do not for thereof I am most assured, and therefore I will give no such offense.

As they were thus talking, the chamber door was unlocked and Doctor Seton came in, who when he saw Mayster Hussey: what Syr (quoth he) are you come before me? O Lord said Bradford in his heart to God, goeth the matter thus? This man told me, no man knew of his coming: Lord give me grace to remember thy Lesson, Cauete ab hominibus illis. Beware of those men. &c. Caste not your pearls before dogs: for I see these men be come to hunt for matter, that the one may bear witness with the other.

Doctor Seton after some by talk of Bradfordes age, of his country & such like, began a gay and long sermō of my Lord of Canterbury, M. Latimer, and M. Ridley, and howe they at Oxford were not able to answer anything at all: and that therefore my Lord of Canterbury desired to confer with the Bishop of Duresme and others: all which talk tended to this end that John Bradford should make the like suit, being in nothing to be compared in learning to my Lord of Canterbury.

To this, John Bradford briefly answered as he did before to Mayster Hussey.

With this answer neither the Doctor nor Gentleman being contented, after many persuasions: M. Doctor said: I have heard much good talk of you, and even yesternight a Gentleman made report of you at the Lord Chaūcellors table, that ye were able to persuade as much as any that he knew. And I (though I never heard you preach, & to my knowledge never did I see you before yesterday) yet me thought your modesty was such, your behavior and talk so without malice and impacience, that I would be sory ye should do worse then myself. And I tell you further, I do perceive my Lord Chancellor hath a fantasy towards you: wherefor be not so obstinate but desire respite, and some learned man to confer withal. &c.

But John Bradford kept still one answer: I cannot, nor I will not so offend the people. I doubt not, but am most certain of the doctrine I have taught.

Here Mayster Doctoure waxed hot, and called Bradford arrogant, proud, vayneglorious, and spake like a Prelate.

But Bradford answered, beware of judging, least ye condemn yourself. But still Mayster Doctor Seton urged him, showing him how merciful my Lord Chancellor was, and how charitably they enterteyned him.

I never saw any justice, much less love, I speak for my part (quoth Bradford) in my Lord Chancellor. Long have I been unjustly imprisoned, and handled in the same uncharitably, & now my Lord hath no just matter against me.

This talk served not the Doctors purpose: wherefore he went frō matter to matter, frō this point to that point. Bradford still gave him the hearing, and answered not: for he perceived that they both did come but to fish for some such things as might make a show that my Lord Chancelor had justly kept him in prison.

When all their talk took no such effect as they would or looked for. Mayster Hussey asked Bradford: will ye not admit conference, if my Lord Chancellor should offer it publicly?

Conference, if it had been offered before the law had been made, or if it were offered, so that I might be at liberty to confer, and as sure, as he with whom I should confer, then it were something: but else I see not to what other purpose conference should be offered, but to defer that which will come at the length, and the lingering may give more offense, then do good. Howbeit, if my Lord shall make such an offer of his own motion, I will not refuse to confer with whom so ever he shall appoint.

At which words the Lord Chancellor was wroth, and said, that they had given him respite to deliberate till this day, whether he would recant his errors of the blessed Sacrament, which yesterday (quoth he) before us you uttered.

My Lord you gave me no time of any such deliberation, neither did I speak any thing of the Sacrament which you did disallow. For when I had declared a presence of Christ to be there to faith, you went frō that matter to purge yourself that you were not cruel, and so went to dynner.

What? I perceive we must begin all again with thee. Did not I yesterday tell thee plainly that thou mad • st a conscience where none should be? Did not I make it plain that the oth against the Bishop of Rome was an ••• awful oth?

No in deed my Lord: You said so, but you proved it not yet, nor never can do.

Oh Lord God, what a fellow art thou? Thou wouldest go about to bring into the people's heads, that we, all the Lord's of the parliament house, the Knyghtes and Burgesses, and all the whole realm be perjured. Oh what an heresy is this? here good people you may see what a senceles heretic this fellow is. If I should make an oth I would never help my brother nor lend him money in his need, were this a good answer to tell my neighbor desiring my help, that I had made an oth to the contrary, O that I could not do it?

Oh my Lord, discern betwixt oaths, that be against charity and faith, and oaths that be according to faith and charity, as this is against the bishop of Rome.

Here the Lord Chancellor made much ado, and a long time was spent about oaths, which were good & which were evil, he captiously asking often of Bradford a direct answer concerning oaths: which Bradford would not give simply, but with a distinction. Wherat the Chancellor was much offended: but Bradford still kept him at the bay, that the oth against the Bishop of Rome was a lawful oth, using thereto the Lord Chauncellors own book, de vera Obedientia, for confirmation.

At the length they came to this issue, who should be Judge of the lawfulness of the oath: and Bradford said the word of God, according to Christ's word. John. 12. My word shall judge, and according to the testimony of Isaiah and Mithe, that God's word coming out of Jerusalem, shall give sentence among the Gentiles. By this word (quoth Bradford) my Lord, I will prove the oath against the bishop of Rome's authority, to be a good, a godly, and a lawful oath. So that the Lord Chancellor left his hold, and as the other day he pretended a denial of the queenes authority and obedience to her highness, so did he now.

But Bradford, as the day before, proved that obedience in this point to the Queens highness, if she should demand an oath to the Bishop of Rome, being denied, was not a general denial of her authority and of obedience to her: no more (quoth he) thē the sale, gift, or lease of a piece of a man's inheritance proveth it a sale, gift or lease of the whole inheritance.

And thus much ado was made about this matter: The Lord Chancellor talking much and using many examples of debt, of going out of the Town tomorrow by oth, and yet tarrying till Friday and such like. Which trifling talk Bradford did touch saying: that it was a wonder his honor weighed conscience no more in this, and would be so earnest in vows of Priests Mariages made to bishops, and be careless for solemn oaths made to God, & to Princes. Summa, this was the end. The Lord Chancellor said, the Queen might dispense with it, and did so to all the whole Realm. But Bradford said, that the queenes highness could do no more but remit her right: as for the oath made to God, she could never remit, forasmuch as it was made unto God.

At which words the Lord Chancellor chased wonderfully, and said that in plain sense I sclaundered the Realm of perjury: And therefore (quoth he to the people) you may see how this fellow taketh upon him, to have more knowledge and conscience, then all the wise mē of England, and yet he hath no conscience at all.

Well my Lord, let all the standers by see who hath conscience. I have been a yere and an half in prison. Now before all this people, declare wherefor I was imprisoned, or what cause you had to punish me. You said y ^e other day in your own house, my Lord of London witnessing with you, that I took upon me to speak to the people undesired. There he sitteth by you, I mean my Lord of Bathe, which desired me himself for the passiō of Christ, I would speak to the people. Upon whose words, I coming into the Pulpite, had like to have been slain with a dagger (which was hurled at him, I think) for it touched my sleeve. He then prayed me I would not leave him, & I promised him as long as I lived, I would take hurt before him that day, and so went out of the pulpit, and entreated with the people, & at length brought him myself into an house.

Besides this, in the afternoon I preached in Bowe church, and there going up into the Pulpit, one willed me not to reprove y ^e people, for (quoth he) you shall never come down alive, if you do it. And yet notwithstanding I did in that Sermon reprove their fact, and called it sedition at the least twenty times. For all which my doing, I have received this recompense, prison a year and an half and more, and death now which you go about. Let all men be judge where conscience is.

In speaking of these words, there was endeavor to have letted it: but Bradford still spake on, & gave no place till he had made an end, speak what they would. And thē the Lord Chancellor said, that for all that fair tale, his fact at the Cross was naught.

No, my fact was good, as you yourself did bear witness with me. For when I was at the first before you in the Tower, you yourself did say that my fact was good, but (quoth you) thy mind was evil. Well (quoth I) then my Lord, in that you alow the fact and condemn my mind, for as much as otherwise I can not declare my mind to man, but by saying and doing, God one day I trust will open it, to my comfort, what my mind was, and what yours is.

Here the Lord Chancellor was offended, and said, that he never said so. I (quoth he) had not so little wit I trow, as not to discern betwixt meaning & doing: And so brought forth little to y ^e purpose, many examples to prove that men construe things by the meaning of men and not by their doings. But when this would not serve, the • cometh he to another matter, & said that Bradford was put in prison at the first, because he would not yield nor be conformable to the Queens Religion.

Why my Lord, your honor knoweth, that you would not thē reason with me in religion, but said, a time should afterwards be found out, whē I should be talked withal. But if it were as your Lordship saith, that I was put in prison for religion? in that my religiō was then authorised by public laws of the realm, could conscience punish me or cast me in prison therefore? Wherefore let all men be judge in whom conscience wanteth.

Here came forth M. Chamberleyne of Woodstock and spake to my Lord Chancellor how that Bradford had been a serving man and was with Master Harrington.

True, and did deceive his Mayster of Seven score pounds, and because of this he went to be a Gospeller and a Preacher (good people) and yet you see howe he pretendeth conscience.

My Lord, I set my foot by his whosoever he be, that can come forth and justly vouche to my face that ever I deceived my Mayster. And as you are chief iusticer by office in England, I desire justice upon them that so slander me, because they cannot prove it.

Here my Lord Chancellor and M. Chamberleyne were smitten blank, and said they heard it. But quoth my Lord Chancellor we have another manner of matter then this against you: for you are an heretic.

Yea quoth the Bishop of London, he did write letters to M. Pendleton which knoweth his hand as well as his own, your honor did see the letters.

That is not true, I never did write to Pendleton sithens I came to prison, and therefore I am not justly spoken of.

Yea, but you indicted it.

I did not, nor know not what you mean, and this I offer to prove.

Here came in another, I trow they call him, Master Allen one of the Clerks of the Council, putting y ^e Lord Chauncelor in remembrance of letters written into Lankyshire.

You say true: for we have his hand to show·

I deny that you have my hand to show of Letters sent into Lankyshyre, otherwise then before you all I will stand to, and prove them to be good and lawful.

Here was all answered, and then the Lord Chancellor began a new matter. Syr (quoth he) in my house the other day you did most cōtemptuously contemn y ^e queenes mercy, and further said, that you would maintain the erroneous doctrine in king Edwards days against all mē, And this you did most stoutly.

Well, I am glad that all men see now you have had no matter to imprisō me afore that day justly. Now say I, that I did not contemptuouslye contemn the Queens mercy, but would have had it (though if justice might take place I need it not) so y ^t I might have had it with God's mercy, that is, without doing or saying anything against God and his truth. And as for maintenance of doctrine, because I cā not tell how you will stretch this word maintenance, I will repeat again that which I spake, I said I was more confirmed in the Religion set forth in Kyng Edward's days then ever I was: and if God so would, I trust I should declare it by giving my life for the confirmation and testification thereof. So I said then, and so I say now. As for otherwise to maintain it, then pertaineth to a private person by confession, I thought not, nor think not.

Well, yesterday thou didst maintain false heresy concerning the blessed Sacrament, and therefore we gave thee respite till this day to deliberate.

My Lord, as I said at the first, I spake nothing of the Sacrament but that which you allowed, and therefore reproved it not, nor gave me any time to deliberate.

Why? diddest thou not deny Christ's presence in the Sacrament?

No, I never denied nor taught, but that to faith whole Christ, body and blood was as present as bread and wine to the due receiver.

Yea, but doest thou not believe y ^t Christ's body naturally & really is there, under the forms of bread & wine?

My Lord, I believe Christ is present there to y ^e faith of the due receiver: as for transubstantiation I plainly & flatly tell you, I believe it not.

Here was Bradford called Diabolus, a slanderer, for we ask no question (quoth my Lord Chancellor) of transubstantiation, but of Christ's presence.

I deny not his presence to the faith of the receiver, but deny that he is included in the bread, or that the bread is transubstantiate.

If he be not included, how is he then present?

Forsooth though my faith can tell how, yet my tongue cannot express it, nor you, otherwise then by faith hear it, or understand it.

Here was much ado, now one Doctor standing up and speaking thus, and others speaking that, & the Lord Chancellor talking much of Luther, Zwingli, Oecolampadius: but still Bradford kept him at this point, that Christ is present to faith: and that there is no transubstantiation nor including of Christ in the bread: but all this would not serve them.

Therefore another bishop asked this question, whether the wicked man received Christ's very body or no? And Bradford answered plainly no. Wherat the Lord Chancellor made a long Oration, how that it could not be that Christ was present, except that the evil man received it. But Bradford put away all his Oration in few words, that grace was at that present offered to his Lordshyp, although he received it not: So that (quoth he) the receiving maketh not the presence, as your Lordship would infer, but God's grace, truth, and power is the cause of the presence, which grace the wicked that lack faith cannot receive. And here Bradford prayed my Lord, not to divorce that which God had coupled together. He hath coupled all these together: Take, eat, this is my body: he saith not: See, peep, this is my body: but take eat. So that it appeareth this is a promise depending upon condition, if we take & eat.

Here the Lord Chancellor and the other bishops made a great ado, that Bradford had found out a toy that no man else ever did, of the conditiō, & the Lord Chancelor made many words to the people there about.

But Bradford said thus: My Lord, are not these words, Take, eat, a commandment? And are not these words, This is my body, a promise? If you will challenge the promise, and do not the commandment, may you not deceive yourself?

Here the Lord Chancellor denied Christ to have commanded the Sacrament, and the use of it.

Why my Lord I pray you tell the people what mood Accipite, Māducate is: Is it not plain to children, y ^t Christ in so saying commandeth?

At these words the Lord Chancellor made a great toying and trifling at the imparatiue mood and fell to paresing or examining, as he should teach a child: & so concluded that it was no commandment: but such a phrase as this, I pray you give me drink, which (quoth he) is no commandment I trow.

But Bradford prayed him to leave toying and trifling, and said thus: My Lord, if it be not a commandment of Christ to take and eat the Sacrament, why dare any take upon them to command and make that of necessity, which God leaveth free? as you do in making it a necessary commandment, once a year for all that be o • discretion to receive the Sacrament.

Here the Lord Chancellor called him again Diabolus or Calumniator, and began out of these words: Let a man prove himself, and so eat of the bread, (yea bread quoth Bradford) and drink of the cup, to prove that it was no commandment to receive the Sacrament. For then (quoth he) if it were a commandment, it should bind all men in all places, and at all times.

O my Lord, discern between commandments: some be so general, as the ten commandments: that they bind always, in all places, and all persons: some be not so general: as this is of the Supper, the Sacrament of Baptism, of the thrice appearing before the Lord yearly at Jerusalem, of Abraham offering of Isaac. &c.

Here my Lord Chancellor denied the cup to be commanded of Christ, for then (quoth he) we should have eleven commandments.

In deed I think you think as you speak, for else would you not take the cup from the people, in that Christ saith: Drink ye of it all. But howe say you my Lord's: Christ saith to you Bishops especially: Ite predicate Euangelium. i. Go and preach the Gospel: Feede Christ's flock. &c. Is this a commandment or no?

Here was my Lord Chancellor in a chase, and said as pleased him.

An other, the Bishop of Duresme I ween asked Bradford when Christ began to be present in the Sacrament? whether before the receiver received it, or no?

Bradford answered, that the question was curious and not necessary: and further said, that as the cup was the new Testament, so the bread was Christ's body to him that receiveth it duly, but yet so that the bread is bread. For (quoth he) in all the Scripture, you shall not find this proposition, Non est panis, there is no bread. And so he brought forth Chrysostom: Si in corpore essemus. Homel. 83. in Mat. 34. Summa, much ado was hereaboutes, they calling Bradford heretic, and he desiring them to proceed on in God's name, be looked for that which God had appointed for them to do.

This fellow is now in another heresy of fatal necessity, as though all things were so tied together, that of mere necessity all must come to pass.

But Bradford prayed him to take things as they be spoken, and not wrast them into a contrary sense. Your Lordship (quoth he) doth discern betwixt God and man. Thinges are not by fortune to God at any time, though to man they seem so sometimes. I speak but as the Apostles said: Lord (quoth they) see how Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Prelates are gathered together against thy Christ, to do that which thy hand and counsel hath before ordained for them to do.

Here began the Lord Chancellor to read the excommunication. And in the excommunication, when he came to the name of John Bradford Laicus, lay man: why (quoth he) art thou no Priest?

No, nor never was, either Prieste, either benefited, either married, either any Preacher▪ afore public authority had established Religion, or Preacher after public authority had altered Religiō, and yet I am thus handled at your hands: but God, I doubt not, will give his blessing where you curse. And so he fell down on his knees, and heartily thanked God, that he counted him worthy to suffer for his sake. And so praying God to give him reap̄tance, and a good mind, after the excommunication was read, he was delivered to the Shyriffe of London, & so had to the Clincke, and after to the Counter in the Poultry in the same City of London, this being then purposed of his murderers, that he should be delivered from thence to the Earl of Darby, to be conveyed into Lankeshyre, and there to be burned in the town of Manchester, where he was borne: but their purpose concerning the place was afterward altered: for they burned him in London.

My Lord as roundly as I can I will go to work with you: I never desired to confer with any mā, nor yet do. Howbeit if ye will have one to talk with me, I am ready.

What (quoth the Bishop in a fume to the keeper) did you not tell me that this man desired conference?

No my Lord, I told you that he would not refuse to confer with any: but I did not say that it is his desire.

Well, M. Bradford, you are well-beloved, I pray you consider yourself, & refuse not charity when it is offered.

In deed my Lord, this is small charity, to condemn a man as you have condemned me, which never brake your laws. In turky a man may have charity, but in England I could not yet find it. I was condemned for my faith, so soon as I uttered it at your requests, before I had committed anything against the laws. And as for conference I am not afraid to talk with whom you will. But to say that I desire to confer, that do I not.

Well, well. And so he called for M. Taylor and Bradford went his way.

No, that I do not, but ye do. For the * Church is Christ's spouse, and Christ's obedient spouse, which your Church is not, which robbeth the people of the Lord's cup, and of service in the English tongue.

Why? it is not profitable to have the service in English: for it is written: Labia Sacerdotis custodiunt legem. The lips of the Priest should keep the law, and out of his mouth man must look for knowledge.

Soulde not the people then have the scriptures? Wherefore serveth this saying of Christ: Searche the Scriptures?

This was not spoken to the people, but to the Scribes and learned men.

Then the people must not have the scriptures.

No, for it was written: Erunt docti a Deo: They shall be all taught of God.

And must we learn all at the priests?

Yea.

Then I see you would bring the people to hang up Christ and let Barabbas go: as the priests did then persuade the people. At which words, Mayster Willerton was so offended that he had no lust to talk anymore. In the end Bradford gave him the reasons which he had gathered against transubstantiation, & prayed him to frame his into the form of reasons, and then, quoth Bradford, I will answer them.

Well I will do so. But first I will answer yours. The which thing until this day he hath not done.

Upon the 12. of February there came one of the Earl of Darbies servants to Bradford, saying: My Lord hath sent me to you: he willeth you to tender yourself, and he would be good Lord unto you.

I thank his Lordship for his good will toward me: but in this case I cannot tender myself more then God's honor.

Ah M. Bradford, consider your mother, sisters, friends, kinsfolk, and country, what a great discomfort it will be unto them to see you die as an heretic.

I have learned to forsake father, mother, brother sister, friend, and all that ever I have, yea even mine own self, for else I cannot be Christ's Disciple.

If my Lord should obtain for you that ye might depart the Realm, would ye not be content to be at the Queens appointment, where she would appoint you beyond the sea?

No, I had rather be burned in England then be burned beyond the seas. For I know that if she should send me to Paris, Louaine, or some such place, forthwith they would burn me.

I pray you let me make labor for you.

You may do what ye will.

But tell me what suit I should make for you.

Forsooth that ye will do, do it not at my request, for I desire nothing at your hands. If the Queen will give me life, I will thank her. If she will banishe me, I will thank her. If she will burn me, I will thank her: If she will condemn me to perpetual prisonment. I will thank her.

Hereupon Creswell went away, and about a xi. of the clock he and the other man came again, & brought a book of Mores making, desiring Bradford to read it over.

taking the book, said: Good perciuall, I am settled for being moved in this article.

Oh, if ever ye loved me, do one thing for me.

What is it.

Desire and name what learned man or men ye will have to come unto you. My Lord • o York, my Lord of Lincoln, my Lord of Bath, & others will gladly come unto you.

No, never will I desire them or any other to come to confer with me, for I am as certain of my doctrine as I am of anything, But for your pleasure, and also that all men may know I am not ashamed to have my faith • ifted and tried, bring whom ye will, and I will talk with them, So they went their way.

About 3. of the clock in the after noon Mayster Doctor Harding, who was then the B. of Lincolns Chaplayn came to Bradford, and after a great and solemn protestation, showing how y ^t he had prayed to God before he came to turn his talk to Bradfords good, he began to tell of the good opinion he had of Bradford, and spent the time in such tratling, so that their talk was to little purpose: save that Bradford prayed him to consider from whence he was fallen, and not to follow the world, nor to love it: For the love of God is not where the world is.

But Harding counted Bradford in a damnable estate, as one being out of the church, & therefore willed him to take heed of his soul, & not to die in such an opinion.

What M. Harding, quoth Bradford? I have heard you with these ears maintain this that I stand in.

I grant that I have taught that the doctrine of transubstantiation was a subtle doctrine, but otherwise I never taught it. And so he enueying against marriages of Priests, and namely against Peter Martyr. Martin Bucer, Luther, and such, which for breaking their vows were justly given up into heresies (as he said) Bradford seeing him altogether given up to Popery, after admonishment thereof, bad him farewell.

Then said Harpsfield, but the way thither is not all alike. For the infidels by Jupiter, Juno, the Turk by his Alcoran: the Jew by his Thalmod, do believe to come to heaven, For so may I speak of such as believe the immortality of the soul.

You speak truly.

Well, then here is the matter, to know the way to this heaven.

We may not invent any manner of ways. There is but one way, & that is Jesus Christ, as he himself doth witness: I am the way.

It is true that you say, and false also. I suppose that you mean by Christ, believing in Christ.

I have learned to discern betwixt faith & Christ, Albeit I confess, that who so believeth in Christ, the same shall be saved.

No not all that believe in Christ: for some shall say Lord, Lord, have not we cast out devils. &c. But Christ will answer in the day of Judgment to these: Depart from me, I know you not.

You must make a difference betwixt believing, and saying I believe, As for example: if one should say & swear he loveth you, for all his saying ye will not believe him when you see he goeth about to utter and do all the evil against you that he can.

Well, this is not much material. There is but one way Christ. How come we to know him? Where shall we seek to find him?

Forsooth, we must seek him by his word, and in his word, and after his word.

Uery good, but tell me now how first we came into the company of them that could tell us this, but by Baptism?

Baptism is the sacrament, by the which outwardly we are engrafted into Christ: I say outwardly, because I dare not exclude from Christ all that die without Baptism. I will not tie God, where he is not bound. Some Infantes die, whose Parentes desire Baptism for them, and cannot have it.

To those we may think perchance that God will show mercy.

Yea, the children whose parents do contemn baptism, will not I condemn, because the child shall not bear the fathers offense.

Well, we agree that by Baptism then we are brought, and, as a man would say, begotten to Christ. For Christ is our father, and the church his spouse is our mother. As all men naturally have Adam for their father, and and Eve for their mother: so all spiritual men have christ for their father, and the Church for their mother. And as Eve was taken out of Adams side, so was the Church taken out of Christ's side: whereout flowed blood for the satisfaction and purgation of our sins.

All this is truly spoken.

Now, then tell me whether this Church of Christ hath not been always?

Yea, sithens the creatiō of man, and shall be forever.

Uery good. But yet tell me whether this Church is a visible Church, or no?

It is no otherwise visible, then Christ was here on earth: that is, by no exterior pomp or show that setteth her forth commonly, and therefore to see her we must put on such eyes, as good men put on to see & know christ when he walked here on earth: for as Eve was of y ^e same substance that Adam was of, so was the Church of the same substance that Christ was of, flesh of his flesh, & bone of his bones, as Paul saith, Ephes 5. Look therefore how Christ was visibly known to be Christ when he was on earth, that is, by considering him after the word of GOD so is the Church known.

I do not come to reason at this present, & therefor • I will go on forward. Is not this Church a multitude?

Yes that it is. Howbeit, lat • t anguis in herba, as the Proverb is. For in your question is a subtlety. What visible multitude was there in He • ias time, or whē Moses was on the Mount, Aaron and all Israel worshipping the Cal • e?

Ye divert from the matter.

No, nothing at all. For I do prevent you, knowing well where about you go. And therefore f • wer words might well serve if that you so would.

Well, I perceive you have knowledge, and by a little perceive I the more. Tel me yet more, whether this multiude have not the Ministry or preaching of God's word?

Syr, ye go about the bushe. If ye understand Preaching for confessing the Gospel, I will go with you: for else if you will, you may know that persecution often letteth preaching.

Well, I mean it so. Tell me yet more: hath it not the Sacraments administered?

It hath the sacraments, howbeit the administratiō of them is often letted. But I will put you from your purpose, because I see where about you go. If heretics have Baptism and do Baptise, as they did in S. Ciprians time, you know this Baptism is Baptism, & not to be reiterate. This Bradford did speak, that the stāders by might see, that though the Papists Church have baptism which we have received of them, yet therefore it is not the true Church, neither need we to be baptized again.

You go far from the matter, and I perceive you have more errors then one.

So you say: but that is not enough til you prove thē.

Well, this Church is a multitude. Hath it not the preaching of the Gospel, & the ministra • ion of the Sacraments? & yet more: hath it not the power of Jurisdiction?

What jurisdiction is exercised in persecution and affliction?

I mean by jurisdiction admonishing one another and so forth.

Well, go to: what then?

It hath also succession of Bishops. And here he made such a do to prove y ^t this was an essential point.

You say as you would have it: for if this parte fail you, all the Church y ^t you go about to set up will fall down. You shall not find in all y ^e scripture this your essētiall parte of succession of Bishops. In Christ's Church Antichrist will sit. And Peter telleth us, as it went in the old Church afore Christ's coming, so will it be in the new church sithen Christ's coming: that is, as there were false Prophets, & such as bare rule were adversaries to the true Prophets: so shall there be (saith he (false teachers, even of such as are Bishops, and bear rule amongst the people.

You go always out of the matter: but I will prove further the succession of Bishops.

Do so.

Tell me, were not the Apostles Bishops?

No, except you will make a new definition of a Bishop, that is, give him no certain place.

In deed, the Apostles office was not the Bishops office: for it was universal, but yet Christ instituted Bishops in his church as Paul saith: he hath givē Pastors, Prophets. &c. so that I trow it be proved by the Scriptures the succession of Bishops to be an essential point.

The Ministry of God's word, and Ministers, be an essential point. But to translate this to the Bishops and their succession, is a plain subtlety: And therefore that it may be plain, I will ask you a question. Tel me, whether that the Scripture knew any difference between Bishops and Ministers, which ye call Priests?

No.

Well, then go on forewardes, and let us see what ye shall get now by the succession of Bishops, that is, of Ministers, which cannot be understand of such Bishops as Minister not, but Lord it.

I perceive that you are far out of the way. By your doctrine you can never show in your Church, a multitude which ministereth God's word & his Sacraments, which hath jurisdiction and succession of Bishops, which hath from time to time believed as you believe, beginning now and so going vpwardes as I will do of our doctrine and therefore are ye out of the church, & so cannot be saved. Perchaunce you will bring me downwardes a show to blear people's eyes: but to go vpwardes, that you can never do, and this is the true trial.

Ye must and will, I am assured, give me leave to follow the scriptures and examples of good men.

Yea.

Well thē, Stephen was accused and condemned as I am, that he had taught new and false doctrine before the fathers of the Church then as they were taken. Stephen for his purgation improoueth their accusation. But how? doth he it by going vpwardes? no, but by coming downwardes, beginning at Abrahā, and continuing still till Esayas time, and the people's captivity. From whence he maketh a great leap until y ^t time he was in, which was (I think) upon a 400. years, & called them by their right names helhoundes, rather then heaven hounds. On this sort will I prove my faith, & that can you never do yours.

Yea sir, if we did know that you had the holy Ghost, then could we believe you. Here Bradford would have answered, that Stevens enemies would not believe he had the holy Ghost, and therefore they did as they did: but as he was in speaking. M. Harps. arose up, & the keeper and others that stood by, began to talk gently, praying Bradford to take heed to that master Archdeacon spake, who still said that Bradford was out of the church.

Syr I am most certain that I am in Christ's Church, and I can show a demonstration of my Religion from time to time continually.

Master Archdeacon began a very long Oration, first repeting what they had said, and how far they had gone over night, and therw ^t did begin to prove upwards succession of Bishops here in England for 800. years in France at Lions for 1200. years: in Spain at Hispalen for 800. years. In Italy at Milan for 1200. years, laboring by this to prove his Church. He used also succession of Bishops in the East Church for the more confirmation of his words, and so concluded with an exhortation and an interrogation: the exhortation, that Bradford would obey this church: the interrogatiō, whether Brad-could show any such succession for the demonstratiō of his Church (for so he called it) which followed.

Unto this his long Oration Bradford made this short answer: my memory is evil, so that I cannot answer particularly your Oration.

Therefore I will generally do it, thinking, because your Oration is rather to persuade then to prove, that a small answer will serve. If Christ or his Apostles being here on earth had been required by the Prelates of the church then to have made a demonstration of that church by succession of such high Priests as had approved the doctrine which he taught, I think that Christ would have done as I do: that is, have alleged y ^t which upholdeth the church even, the verity, y ^e word of God taught & believed, not by the high Priests, which of long time had persecuted it, but by the Prophets and other good simple men, which perchance were counted for heretics of the Church: which Church was not tied to succession, but to the word of god. And this to think, S. Peter giveth me occasion, when he saith that as it went in the Church before Christ's coming, so shall it go in the Church after his coming: but then the pillars of the church were persecutors of the true Church: therefore the like we must look for now.

I can gather and prove succession in Jerusalem of the high Priests from Aaron's time.

I grant, but not such succession as allowed the truth.

Why did they not allow Moses law?

Yes, and keep it, as touching the books thereof, as you do the Bible, and holy Scriptures. But the true interpretation and meaning of it they did corrupt, as you have done & do, and therefore the persecution which they sturred up against the Prophets and Christ, was not for the law, but for the interpretation of it. For they taught as you do now, that we must fetch the interpretation of the scriptures at your hands. But to make an end death I look daily for, yea hourly, and I think my time be but very short. Therefore I had need to spend as much time with God as I can whilst I have it, for his help & comfort, and therefore I pray you bear with me that I do not now particularly and in moe words answer your long talk. If I saw death not so near me as it is, I would then weigh every piece of your Oration, if you would give me the sum of it, and I would answer accordingly: but because I dare not, nor I will not leave of looking & preparing for that which is at hand, I shall desire you to hold me excused, because I do as I do, and heartily thank you for youre gentle good will. I shall heartily pray God our father to give you the same light and life I do wish to myself: & so Bradford began to arise up.

But then began Master Archdeacon to tell him that he was in very perilous case, and that he was sory to see him so settled. As for death, whether it be nigh or far of I know not, neither forceth it, so that you did die well.

I doubt not in this case, but y ^t I shall die well: for as I hope and am certain my death shall please the Lord so I trust I shall die cheerfully to y ^e comfort of his childrē.

But what if you be deceived?

What if you should say the sun did not shine now? (and the Sun did shine through the window where they sat.)

Well I am sory to see you so secure and carlesse.

In deed I am more carnally secure and careless then I should be: God make me more vigilant. But in this case I cannot be so secure, for I am most assured I am in y ^e truth.

That are ye not: for you are out of the Catholic Church.

No, though you have excommunicate me out of your Church, yet am I in the Catholic Church of christ and am, and by God's grace shall be a child & an obedient child of it forever. I hope Christ will have no less care for me, then he had for the blind man excommunicated of the Synagogue: and further I am sure that the necessary Articles of the faith, I mean the twelve Articles of the Creed, I confess and believe with that which you call the holy church, so that even your church hath taken something to much upon her to excommunicate me for that, which by the testimony of my Lord of Duresme in the book of the sacrament lately put forth, was free many an hundred year after Christ, to believe or not believe.

What is that?

Transubstantiation.

Why? ye are not condemned therefore only.

For that, and because I deny that wicked men do receive Christ's body.

You agree not with us in the presence, nor in anything else.

How you believe you know: for my part I confess a presence of whole Christ God and man, to the faith of the receiver.

Nay, you must believe a real presence in the sacrament.

In the Sacrament? Nay, I will not shut him in, nor ty • him to it otherwise then faith seeth and perceiveth. If I should include Christ really present in the sacrament or tie him to it otherwise then to the faith of the receiver, then the wicked men should receive him, which I do not, nor will by God's grace, believe.

More pity: But a man may easily perceive, you make no presence at all, and therefore you agree not therein with us.

I confess a presence, and a true presence, but to the faith of the receiver.

What (quoth one that stood by) of Christ's very body which died for us.

Yea even of whole Christ God & man to feed the faith of him that receiveth it.

Why? this is nothing else but to exclude y ^e omnipotency of God, and all kind of miracle in the sacrament.

I do not exclude his omnipotency, but you do it rather: for I believe that Christ can accomplish his promise, the substance of bread and wyne being there, as well as the accidents, which you believe not. When we come to the Sacrament, we come not to feed our bodies, and therefore we have but a little piece of bread, but we come to feed our souls with Christ by faith, which the wicked do want, and therefore they receive nothing but Panem domini as Judas did, & not Panem Dominum, as y ^e other Apostles did.

The wicked do receive the very body of Christ, but not the grace of his body.

They receive not the body. For Christ's body is no dead carcase: he that receiveth it, receiveth the spirit, which is not without grace I trow.

Well, you have many errors. You count the Mass for abomination, and yet S. Ambrose said Mass: and so he read out of a book written a sentence of S. Ambrose to prove it.

Why sir, the mass as it is now, was nothing so in S. Ambrose time. Was not y ^e most part of the Canon made sithen by Gregory and Scolasticus?

In deed a great piece of it was made, as ye say, by Gregory : but Scolasticus was before Saint Ambrose time.

I ween not: howbeit I will not contend. S. Gregory saith, that the Apostles said Mass without the Canon, only with the Lord's prayer.

You say true: for the Canon is not the greatest part of the Mass, the greatest part is the sacrifice, elevation, transubstantiation, and adoration.

I can away with none of those.

No, I think the same: but yet Hoc facite, telleth plainly the sacrifice of the Church.

You confound Sacrifices, not discerning betwixt the sacrifice of the Church, and for the Church. The sacrifice of the Church is no propiciatory sacrifice, but a gratulatory sacrifice. And as for Hoc facite, is not referred to any sacrifising, but to the whole action of taking, eating, &c.

You speak not learnedly now: for Christ made his supper only to the twelve Apostles, not admittyng his mother or any of the seventy Disciples to it. Now the Apostles do signify the Priests.

I think that you speak as you would men should understand it: for else you would not keep the cup away from the Laity. We have great cause to thank you, that you will give us of your bread. For I perceive you order the matter so, as though Christ had not commanded it to his whole Church.

Then Harpsfield would have proved Eleuation by a place of Basilius.

I have read y ^e place which seemeth to make nothing for elevation: but be it as it is, this is no time for me to scan the doubtful places of the doctors with you. I have been in prison long without books and all necessaries for study, and now death draweth nye, and I by your leave must now leave of, to prepare for him.

If I could do you good. I would be right glad either in soul or body. For you are in a perilous case both ways.

Syr I thank you for your good will. My case is as it is. I thank God it was never so well w ^t me: for death to me shall be life.

It were best for you to desire master Archedeacon that he would make suit for you, that you might have a time to confer.

I will do the best I can, for I pity his case.

Sir, I will not desire any body to sue for time for me. I am not wavering, neither would I that any body should think I were so. But if you have the charity and love you pretend towards me, and thereto do think that I am in an error, I think the same should move you to do as ye would be done to. As ye think of me, so do I of you, that you are far out of the way, and I do not only think it, but also am thereof most assured. And in this and such like gentle talk they departed.

After thanks for their good will. Bradford answered: by the word of God, even by the Scriptures I am certain of salvation, and Religion.

Uery well said: but how do ye know the word of God and the scriptures, but by the Church?

In deed my Lord, the Church was and is a mean to bring a man more speedily to know the Scriptures and the word of God, as was the woman of Samaria a mean that the Samaritans knew Christ: but

You know: in the Apostles time at the first the word was not written.

True, if you mean it for some books of the New Testament: but else for the Old Testament Peter telleth us Firm • orem sermonem propheticum habemus: We have a more sure word of prophecy ▪ not that it is simply so, but in respect of the Apostles, which being alive and compassed w ^t infirmiti • , attributed to the word written m • re firmitie, as wherewith no fault could be found, where as for the infirmity of their persons men perchance might have found some fault at their preaching: albeit in very deed no less obedience and faith ought to have been given to the one, then to the other: for all proceedeth forth of one spirit of truth.

That place of Peter is not so to be understand of the word written.

Yea syr, that it is, and of none other.

Yea, in deed Master Bradford doth tell you truly in that point.

Well, you know that Irenaeus and others do magnify much and allege the Church against the heretics, and not the scripture.

True, for they had to do with such heretics as did deny the scriptures, and yet did magnify the Apostles so that they were enforced to use the authority of those Churches wherein the Apostles had taught, and which had still retained the same doctrine.

You speak the very truth: for the heretics did refuse all scriptures, except it were a piece of Luke's Gospel.

Then the alleging of the Church cannot be princially used against me, which am so far from denying of the Scriptures that I appeal unto them utterly, as to the only judge.

A pretty matter, that you will take upon you to judge the Church, I pray you where hath your Church been hitherto? For the church of Christ is Catholic and visible hitherto.

My Lord, I do not judge the Church, when I discern it from that congregation, & those which be not the Church, & I never denied the Church to be Catholic & visible althought at sometimes it is more visible then at some.

I pray you tell me where the Church which allowed your doctrine, was these four hundredth years?

I will tell you my Lord, or rather you shall tell yourself, if you will tell me this one thing, where the Church was in Helias his time, when Helias said that he was left alone?

That is no answer.

I am sory that you say so: but this will I tell your Lordship, that if you had the same eyes wherewith a man might have espied the Church then, you would not say it were no answer. The fault why the Church is not seen of you, is not because the Church is not visible, but because your eyes are not clear enough to see it.

You are much deceived in making this collation betwixt the Church then and now.

Uery well spoken my Lord, for Christ said aedificabo Ecclesiam, I will build my Church and not I do, or have built it, but I will build it.

My Lord's, Peter teacheth me to make this collation, saying: as in y ^e people there were false Prophets, which were most in estimation afore Christ's coming, so shall there be false teachers amongst the people after Christ's coming and very many shall follow them And as for your future tense, I hope your grace will not thereby conclude Christ's Church not to have been before, but rather that there is no building in the Church but by Christ's work only: for Paul and Apollo be but watterers.

In good faith I am sory to see you so light in judging the Church.

He taketh upon him as they all do, to judge the Church. A man shall never come to certainty that doth as they do.

My Lord's, I speak simply what I think, & desire reason to answer my objections. Your affections & sorrows cannot be my rules. If that you consider y ^e order and case of my condemnation. I cannot think but y ^t it should something mo • e your honors. You know it well enough (for you heard it) no matter was laid against me, but what was gathered upon mine own confession. Because I did deny Transubstantiation and the wicked to receive Christ's body in the Sacrament, therefore I was condemned and excommunicate, but not of the church although the pillars of the church (as they be taken) did it.

No. I heard say the cause of your imprisonment was, for that you exhorted the people to take the sword in the one hand, and the mattocke in the other.

My Lord, I never meant any such thing, nor spake anything in that sort.

Yea, and you behaved yourself before the Counsel so stoutly at the first, that you would defend the Religion then: and therefore worthily were you prisoned.

Your grace did hear me answer my Lord Chancellor to that point. But put case I had been so stout as they and your Grace make it: were not the laws of the Realm on my side then? Wherefore unjustly was I prisoned: only that which my Lord Chancellor propounded, was my confession of Christ's truth against Transubstantiation, and of that which the wicked do receive, as I said.

You deny the presence.

I do not, to the faith of the worthy receivers.

Why? what is that to say other, then that Christ lieth not on the alter?

My Lord, I believe no such presence.

It seemeth that you have not read Chrysostom for he proveth it.

Hitherto I have been kept well enough without books: howbeit this I do remember of Chrysostom, that he saith that Christ lieth upon the alter, as the Seraphines with their tongues touche our lips with the coals of the alter in heaven, which is an hyperbolical loquution, of which you know Chrysostom is full.

It is evident that you are to far gone: but let us come then to the Church, out of the which ye are excommunicate.

I am not excommunicate out of Christ's Church my Lord, although they which seem to be in the Church and of the Church have excommunicated me, as the poor blind man was, John. 9. I am sure Christ receiveth me.

You do deceive yourself.

Here, after much talk of excommunication, at length Bradford said.

Assuredly, as I think you did well to depart from the Romish church, so I think ye have done wickedly to couple yourselves to it again, for you can never prove it, which you call the mother church, to be Christ's Church.

Ah M. Bradford, you were but a child when this matter began. I was a young man, and then coming frō the University, I went with the world, but I tell you it was always against my conscience.

I was but a child then: howbeit as I told you, I think you have done evil. For ye are come & have brought others to that wicked man which sitteth in the Temple of God, that is in the church: for it cannot be understand of Mahomet, or any out of the Church, but of such as bear rule in the Church.

See how you build your faith upon such places of Scripture as are most obscure to deceive yourself, as though ye were in the Church where you are not.

Well my Lord, though I might by fruits judge of you and others: yet will I not utterly exclude you out of the church. And if I were in your case, I would not condemn him utterly, that is of my faith in the Sacrament: knowing as you know, that at the least 800. years after Christ, as my L. of Duresme writeth, it was free to believe or not to believe transubstantiation.

This is a toy that you have found out of your own brain: as though a man not believing as the church doth, that is transubstantiation, were of the church.

He is an heretic, and so none of the Church that doth hold any doctrine against the definitiō of the church: as a man to hold against transubstantiatiō. Cyprian was no heretic though he believed rebaptising of them which were baptized of heretics, because he held it before the church had defined it, whereas if he had holden it after, thē had he been an heretic.

Oh my Lord, will ye condemn to the devil any man that believeth truly the xii. Articles of the faith (wherein I • ache the unity of Christ's Church to consist) although in some points he believe not the definition of that which ye call the Church? I doubt not but that he which holdeth firmly the Articles of our belief, though in other things he dissent from your definitions, yet he shall be saved.

Chichester. Yea, said both the Bishops? this is your Divinity.

No, it is Paul's, which saith, that if they hold the foundation Christ, though they build upon him straw and stubble, yet they shall be saved.

Lord God, how you delight to lean to so hard and dark places of the Scriptures.

I will show you how that Luther did excommunicate Zwingli for this matter, and so he read a place of Luther making for his purpose.

My Lord, what Luther writeth, as you much pass not, no more do I in this case▪ My faith is not built on Luther, Zwingli, or Oecolampadius is this point: and in deed to tell you truly, I never read any of their works in this matter. As for them, I do think assuredly that they were, and are God's Children and Saints with him.

Well, you are out of y ^e Communion of the Church.

I am not: for it consisteth and is in faith.

Loe, how make you your Church invisible: for you would have the Communion of it to consist in faith.

For to have Communion with the Church needeth no visiblenes of it: for Communion consisteth, as I said, in faith, and not in exterior ceremonies, as appeareth both by Paul, which would have one faith, and by Irenaeus to Uictor, for the observation of Easter, saying that disagreeing of fasting should not break the agreeing of faith.

The same place hath often even wounded my conscience, because we disseuered our selves from the Sea of Rome.

Well, God forgive you: for you have done evil to bring England thither again.

Here my Lord of York took a book of paper of common places, and read a piece of Saint Agustine contra Epistolam Fundamenti, how that there were many things that did hold S. Augustine in the bosom of the Church consent of people and nations, authority confirmed with miracles, nourished with hope, increased with charity, established with antiquity: besides this, there holdeth me in the Church, saith S. Augustine, the succession of priests from Peters seat until this present Bishop. Last of all the very name of Catholic doth hold me. &c. Lo (quoth he) how say you to this of Saint Augustine? paint me out your Church thus.

My Lord these words of S. Augustine make as much for me as for you: although I might answer, that all this, if they had been so firm as you make them, might have been alleged against Christ and his apostles. For there was the law and the ceremonies consented on by the whole people, confirmed with miracles, antiquity and continual succession of Bishops from Aaron's time until that present.

In good faith M. Bradford, you make to much of the state of the Church before Christ's coming.

Therein I do but as Peter teacheth. 2. Pet. 2. and Paul very often. You would gladly have your Church here very glorious, and as a most pleasant Lady. But as Christ said: Beatus est quicunque non fuerit offensus per me: So may his Church say: Blessed are they that are not offended at me.

Yea, you think that none is of the Church but such as suffer persecution.

What I think, God knoweth. I pray your Grace judge me by my words and speaking, and mark that Paul saith: Omnes qui. &c. All that will live godly in Christ Jesus must suffer persecution. Sometimes Christ's Church hath rest here: but commonly it is not so, and specially towards the end her form will be more unseemly.

But what say you to Saint Augustine? where is your Church that hath the consent of people and nations?

Even all people and nations that be God's people have consented with me, and I with them in y ^e docrine of faith.

Lo, ye go about to shift off all things.

No my Lord: I mean simply, and so speak, God knoweth.

Saint Agustine doth here talk of succession even frō Peters seat.

Yea, that seat then was nothing so much corrupt as it is now.

Well, you always judge the church.

No my Lord, Christ's sheep discern Christ's voice, but they judge it not: so they discern the Church, but judge her not.

Yes, that you do.

No, and it like your grace: and yet full well may one not only doubt, but judge also of the Romish church: for she obeyeth not Christ's voice, as Christ's true church doth.

Wherein.

In latin service, and robbing the Laity of Christ's cup in the sacrament and in many other things, in which it committeth most horrible sacrilege.

Why? Latin service was in England when the pope was gone.

True: the time was in England whē the pope was away, but not all popery: as in king Henries days.

Latin service was appointed to be song and had in the Queere, where only were Clerici, that is, such as understood latin, the people sitting in the body of the Church praying their own private prayers: and this may well be yet seen by making of the Chauncell and Queere, so as y ^e people could not come in, or hear them.

Yea, but in Chrisostomes time, and also in the latin church in Saint Jerome's time, all the Church (saith he) reboat. Amen. That is, answereth again mightily, Amen. Whereby we may see that the prayers were made so, that both the people heard them, and understood them.

Ye are to blame to say that the Church robbeth the people of the cup.

Well my Lord, term it as it please you: all men know that laytie hath none of it.

In deed I would wish the Church would define again, that they might have it, for my part.

If God make it free, who cā define to make it bond?

Well master Bradford, we leese our labor, for ye seek to put away all things which are told you to your good: your Church no man can know.

Yes, that ye may well.

I pray you whereby?

Forsooth Chrysostom saith: Tantummodo per Scripturas, alonely by the Scriptures: and this speaketh he very oftentimes, as ye well know.

In deed that is of Chrysostom •• in opere imperfecto, which may be doubted of. The thing whereby the Church may be known best, is succession of Bishops.

No my Lord: Lyra full well writeth upon Matthew, that Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus ration potestatis secularis aut Ecclesiasticae, sed in hominibus in quibus est notitia vera, & confessio fidei & veritatis, That is: The church consisteth not in men by reason either of secular or temporal power: but in men endued with true knowledge, and confession of faith, and of verity.

I do not know him.

Well this man (pointing to Alphonsus) is he. We are come to you of love and charity, by the means of the Earl of Darby, because you desired to confer with us.

I never desired your coming, nor to confer with you, or any other. But seeing you are come of charity, as you say, I cannot but thank you: and as touching conference, though I desire it not, yet I will not refuse to talk with you, if you will.

It were requisite that you did pray unto God, that ye might follow the direction of God's spirit, that he would inspire you so that ye be not addict to your own self will or wit.

Whereupon Bradford made a prayer, and besought God to direct all their willes, words, and works, as the wills, words, and works of his children forever.

Yea, you must pray with your heart. For if you speak but with tongue only, God will not give you his grace.

Syr do not judge, least ye be judged. You have heard my words, now charity would have you to leave y ^e judgment of the heart to God.

You must be as it were a neuter, and not wedded to yourself, but as one standing in doubt: pray and be ready to receive what God shall enspire, for in vain laboreth our tongue to speak else.

Syr my sentence, if you mean it for Religion, must not be in a doubting or uncertain, as I thank God I am certain in that for which I am condemned: I have no cause to doubt of it, but rather to be most certain of it, and therefore I pray God to confirm me more in it. For it is his truth, and because it is so certain and true that it may abide the light, I dare be bold to have it looked on, and confer it with you, or any man: in respect whereof I am both glad of your coming, and thank you for it.

What is the matter whereof you were condemned? we know not.

Syr I have been in prison almost 2. years: I never transgressed any of their laws wherefore I might justly be prisoned, & now am I condemned only because I frankly confessed (whereof I reap̄t not) my faith concerning the sacrament, when I was demanded in these 2. points: one that there is no transubstantiation: the other, that the wicked do not receive Christ's body.

Let us look a little on the first. Do you not believe that Christ is present really, and corporally in the form of bread?

No, I do believe that Christ is present to the faith of the worthy receiver, as there is present bread and wyne to the senses and outward man: as for any such presence of including and placing Christ, I believe not, nor dare believe.

I am sure you believe Christ's natural body is circūscriptible. And here he made much ado of the 2. natures of Christ, how that the one is everywhere, & the other is in his proper place, demaūding such questions, as no wise man would have spent any time about. At length, because the Frier had forgotten to conclude, Bradford put him in mind of it, and thus then at length he concluded: how that because Christ's body was circumscriptable concerning the human nature in heaven, therefore it was so in the bread.

How hangeth this together? Even as if you should say: because you are here, Ergo it must needs follow that you are at Rome. For this you reason: Because Christ's body is in heaven, Ergo it is in the Sacrament under the form of bread: which no wise man will grant.

Why, will you believe nothing, but that which is expressly spoken in the Scriptures?

Yes Syr, I will believe whatsoever you shall by demonstratian out of the Scripture declare unto me.

He is obstinate, quoth Alphonsus to his fellow: and then turning to Bradford said, is not God able to do it?

Yes, but here the question is of God's will, and not of his power.

Why? doth he not say plainly, this is my body?

Yes, and I deny not but that it is so, to the faith of the worthy receyuer.

To the faith? how is that?

Forsooth Syr as I have no tongue to express it: so I know ye have no ears to hear & understand it. For faith is more then man can utter.

But I can tell all that I believe.

You believe not much then. For if you believe y ^e joys of heaven, and believe no more thereof then you can tell, you will not yet desire to come thither. For as the mind is more capable & receiueable thē the mouth: so it conceiveth more then tongue can express.

Christ saith it is his body.

And so say I, after a certain manner.

After a certain manner? that is, after another manner then it is in heaven.

S, Augustine telleth it more plainly, that it is Christ's body after the same manner as Circumcision was the covenant of God, and the Sacrament of faith is faith: or to make it more plain, as baptism and the water of baptism is regeneration.

Uery well said, Baptism and the water thereof is a Sacrament of God's grace & spirit in the water cleansing the Baptized.

No Syr, away w ^t your enclosing but this I grant, that after the same sort Christ's body is in the bread, on which sort the grace and spirit of God is in the water.

In water is God's grace by signification.

So is the body in the bread in the Sacrament.

You are much deceived in that you make no difference between the Sacraments that be standers, and the sacraments that are transitory and passers by. As for example, the Sacrament of Order, which you deny, though S. Augustine affirm it, it is a standard, although the ceremony be past. But in Baptism so soon as the body is washed, the water ceaseth not to be a Sacrament.

Uery good, and so it is in the Supper of the Lord: no 〈1 page duplicate〉 longer then it is in use, is it Christ's Sacrament.

Here was the Friar in a wonderful rage, and spake so high (as often he had done before) that the whole house rang again, cha • ing with om and cho. He hath a great name of learning, but surely he hath little patience. For if Bradford had been anything hot, one house could not have held them. At the length he cometh to this point, that Bradford could not find in the Scripture Baptism and the Lord's Supper to bear any similitude together. And here he triūphed before the conquest, saying that these men would receive nothing but scripture, and yet were able to prove nothing by the Scripture.

Be patient, & you shall see that by the Scripture I will find Baptism & the Lord's supper coupled together.

No, that canst thou never do. Let me see a text of it.

Paul saith: That as we are Baptized into one body: so were we potati in vno spiritu: that is: we have dronk of one spirit, meaning of the cup in the Lord's Supper.

Paul hath no such words.

Yes that he hath.

I trow he hath not.

Geue me a Testament, and I will show you.

So a Priest that sat by them, gave him his Testament, and he shown them the plain text. Then they looked one upon another. In fi • e the Friers found this simple shift, that Paul spake not of the Sacrament.

Well the text is plain enough, and there are of the fathers which do so understand the place: For Chrysostom doth expound it so.

Alphonsus which had the Testament in his hand, desirous to suppress this foil, turned the leaves of y ^e book from leaf to leaf, till he came to the place. 1. Cor. 11. & there he read how that he was guilty, which made no difference of the Lord's body.

Yea, but therewith he saith: He that eateth of the bread: calling it bread still, and that after consecration (as ye call it) as in the 10. to the Corinthians he saith: The bread which we break. &c.

Oh how ignorant are ye, which know not that things after their conversion do retain the same names which they had before, as Moses rod: and calling for a byble, after he had found the place, he began to triumph: But Bradford cooled him quickly, saying:

Syr, there is mension made of the conuersiō, as well, as that the same appeared to the sense. But here ye cannot find it so. Find me one word how the bread is converted, & I will then say, ye bring some matter that maketh for you

At these words the Frier was troubled, & at length he said, how that Bradford hanged on his own sense.

No, that do I not: for I will bring you forth the Fathers of the Church 800. years after Christ, to confyrme this which I speak.

No you have the Church against you.

I have not Christ's Church against me.

Yes that you have. What is the Church?

Christ's wife, the chair and seat of verity.

Is she visible?

Yea that she is to then that will put on the spectacles of God's word to look on her.

This Church hath defined the contrary, and that I will prove by all the good Fathers from Christ's Ascensiō even for 800. years at the least continually.

What will you so prove? Transubstantiation?

Yea, that the bread is turned into Christ's body.

You speak more then you can do.

That do I not.

Then will I give place.

Will you believe?

Beliefe is God's gift: therefore cannot I promise: but I tell you that I will give place: and I hope I shall believe his truth always, so good is he to me in Christ my savior.

Here the Frier found a great fault with Bradford that he made no difference betwixt habitus, and actus: as though actus which he called crudelity, had been in our power. But this he let pass, & came again asking Bradford if he could prove it as he said, whether he wuld give place.

Yea that I will. Then called he for paper, pen & ink, to write, and then said I: what and if that I prove by the testimony of the Fathers, that continually for viii. hundredth years after Christ at the least, they did believe that the substance of bread doth remain in the Sacrament? what will you do?

I will give place.

Then write you here that you will give place if I so prove, & I will write that I will give place if you so prove: because ye are the ancient, ye shall have the preeminence.

Here the Frier fumed marvelously, and said: I came not to learn at thee, Are not here witnesses? (meaning the two Priests) be not they sufficient? But the man was so chafed, that if Bradford had not passed over this matter of writing, the Frier would have fallen to plain scolding.

At the length the kings Confessor asked Bradford what the second question was?

That wicked men receive not Christ's body in the Sacrament, as S. Augustine speaketh of Judas, that he received Panem Domini, but not Panem Dominum.

S. Augustine saith not so.

Yes that doth he. So they arose and talked no more of that matter. Thus went they away, without byddyng Bradford farewell.

After they were none, one of the Priests came, & willed Bradford not to be so obstinate.

Syr, be not you so wavering: in all the scripture cannot you find me, non est panis.

Yes that I can in five places.

Then I will eat your book. So the book was opened, but no place found: and he went his way smiling. God help us.

Syr quoth Mayster Bradford when I perceived by the report of my Lord's servant: that you did bear me good will, more (as he said) then any other of your sort, I told him then, that therefore I could be better content & more willing to talk with you, if you should come unto me. This did I say quoth he, otherwise I desired not your coming.

Well quoth he: now I am come to talk with you: but before we shall enter into any talk, certain principles we must agree upon, which shall be this days work.

First (quoth he) I shall desire you to put away all vain glory, and not hold anything for the praise of the world.

Syr S. Augustine maketh that in deed a piece of the definitiō of an heretic, which if I cannot put away clean (for I think there will a spice of it remain in us, as long as this flesh liveth) yet I promise you by the grace of God that I purpose not to yield to it. God I hope will never suffer it to bear rule in them that strive there against, & desire all the dregs of it utterly to be driven out of us.

I am glad to hear you say so, although in deed I think you do not so much esteem it as others do.

Secondly, I would desire you that you will put away singularity in your judgment and opinions.

Syr God forbid that I should stick to any singularity or private judgment in God's Religion. Hytherto I have not desired it, neither do, nor mind at any time to hold any other doctrine then is public and catholic, understanding catholic as good men do: according to God's word.

Uery well: this is a good days work, I hope to do you good: & therefore now thirdly I shall pray you to write me Capita of those things, whereupon you stand in the sacrament, and to send them to me betwixt this and Wednesday next: until which time, yea until I come to you again be assured that you are without all peril of death. Of my infidelity, warrant you I, therefore away with all dubitations. &c.

Syr I will write to you the grounds I lean to in this matter. As for death, if it come welcome be it, this which you require of me: shall be no great let to me therein.

You know that S. Augustine was a Manichean yet was he converted at the length: so have I good hope of you.

Syr because I will not flatter you: I would you should flatly know, that I am even settled, in the Religion wherefor I am condemned.

Yea, but if it be not the truth, & you see evident matter to the contrary, will you not then give place.

God forbid but that I should always give place to the truth.

I would have you to pray so.

So I do, and that he will more and more confirm me in it, as I thank God he hath done and doth.

Yea but pray with a condition, if you be in it.

No Syr, I cannot pray so, because I am settled and assured of his truth.

Well quoth Weston, as the learned Bishop answered S. Augustine's mother, that though she was obstinate, yet the tears of such a mother could not but win her son: so (quoth he) I hope your prayers (for then Bradfordes eyes did show that he had wept in prayer) can not but be heard of God, though not as you would yet, as best shall please God. Do you not, quoth he, remember the history thereof?

Yea Syr (quoth Bradford) I think it be of Saint Ambrose.

No, that it is not. And here Westō would have laid a wager, and begā to triumph, saying to Bradford: as you are ouersene herein, so are you in the other things.

Well Syr, I will not contēd with you for the name. This (I remember) Saint Augustine writeth in his confessions.

Syr, the manner how I was content to speak with you, was on this sort: Mayster Bech was often in hand with me whom he should bring unto me, and named you amongst other: and I said that I had rather speak with you then with any of all the other. Now the cause why I so would, I will briefly tell you. I remember that once you were (as far as a man might judge) of the Religion that I am of at this present, and I remember that you have set forth the same earnestly. Gladly therefore would I learn of you what thing it was that moved your conscience to alter, and gladly would I see what thing it is that you have seen sithen, which you saw not before.

Master Bradford, I do not know wherefore you are condemned.

Transubstantiation is the cause wherefor I am condemned, and because I deny that wicked men receive Christ's body: wherein I would desire you to show me what reasons, which before you knew not, did move your conscience now to alter. For once (as I said) you were as I am in Religion.

I do not contend or hang upon the word only, but upon the thing which is as new as the word.

Then went he to the seconde, and there brought out S. Augustine, how that if an evil man going to the devil did make his will, his son & heir would not say his father did lie in it, or speak tropically: much more Christ going to God, did never lie or use any figurative speech in his last will and testament. Do you not remember this place of S. Augustine, said he?

Yes Syr, but I remember not that S. Augustine hath those words tropice or figurative, as you rehearse thē: for any man may speak a thing figuratively, and lie not: & so Christ did in his last Supper.

After this he went to the third, and brought forth Cyprian, howe that the nature of the bread is turned into flesh. Here (saith he) my Lord of Canterbury expoundeth nature for quality, by Gelasius: the which interpretatiō serveth for the answer of your third argument, y ^t Christ called bread his body: that is, the quality, form, & appearance of bread. And further the Scripture is wont to call things by the same names which they had before, as Simon the Leaper: he was not so presently, but because he had been so.

Cyprian wrote before Gelasius: therefore Cyprian must not expound Gelasius, but Gelasius, Cyprian: and so they both teach that bread remaineth still. As for things having still the names they had, is no answer, except you could show that this now were not bread, as easily as a man might have known & seen then Simon to have been healed and clear from his Leprosye.

After this he went to the fourth, of the cup, the which he did not fully read, but digressed into a long talk of Cyprians Epistle De Aquarijs: also of S. Augustine, expounding the breaking of bread by Christ to his two Disciples going to Emmaus, to be the Sacrament, with such other talk to no certain purpose: and therefore Bradford prayed him, that in as much as he had written the reasons that stablished his faith against Transubstantiation, so he would likewise do to him, that is, answer him by writing, and show him moe reasons in writing to confirm Transubstantiation. Which Doctor Weston promised to do, & said that he would send or bring it to Bradford again within three days.

Thus when he had over read the arguments, & here and there spokē little to the purpose for the avoiding of thē, and Bradford had prayed him to give him in writing his answers: then he began to tell Bradford how and what he had done for Grimoald, and how that Bradford needed not to fear any reproach or slander he should suffer, meaning belike, to have Bradford secretly come to thē, as Grimoald did: for he subscribed.

Master Dean I would not gladly that you should conceive of me that I pass of shame of men simply in this matter: I rather would have you to think of me, as the very truth is, that hitherto as I have not seen nor heard anything to infirm my faith against Transubstantiation, so I am no less settled in it, then I was at my coming hither. I love to be plain with you, and to tell you at the first, as you shall find at the last.

In good faith master Bradford, I love you the better for your playnnes: & do not think otherwise of me, but that you shall find me plain in all my talk with you.

Here Weston began to ask Bradford of his imprisonment and condemnation: and so Bradford told him altogether: how he had been handled. Whereat Weston seemed to wonder: yea in plain words he said, that Bradford had been handled otherwise thē he had givē cause, & so shown Bradford how that my Lord of Bath reported that he had deserved a Benefit at the Queens hand, and at all the Counsel.

In this kind of talk they spent an hour almost, and so as one weery, Bradford arose up, and Weston called to the Keeper, and before him he bad Bradford be of good comfort, and said that he was out of all peril of death.

Syr (quoth the keeper) but it is in euers man's mouth that he shall die tomorrow.

Wherat Weston seemed half amazed, and said he would go say Evēsong before the Queen, & speak to her in his behalf. But it is to be thought, that the queen had almost supped at that present? for it was past 6, of the clock.

Before the Keeper, Bradford told Weston again that still he was one man: and even as he was at the first, and till he should see matter to teach his conscience the contrary, he said he must needs so continue.

The keeper desired Bradford to hearken to master Doctors counsel, and prayed M. Doctor to be good unto him: and so after they had drunk together, M. Doct. with most gentle words took his leave for 3. days.

Last of all, he excused himself for not answering his arguments against Transubstantiation: because my coming today (quoth he) was more by fortune then of purpose,

I would gladly M. Doctor if it please you, see your answers to my arguments.

Why you have remembered something what I spake to you when I was last with you.

No Syr. I never called them in manner to mind, sythen that time, as well because I hoped you would have written them: as also for that they seemed not to be so material.

In good faith I cannot see any other or better way for you, then for to submit yourself to the judgment of the Church.

Mary so will I Syr, if it so be by the church you understand Christ's Church.

Lo, you take upon you to judge the Church.

No sir that do I not: in taking upon me to discern I do not judge the Church.

Yes that you do, and make it invisible.

I do neither.

Why, who can see your Church.

Those Syr, that have spiritual eyes, wherewith they might have discerned Christ's visible conversation here upon earth.

Nay: Christ's Church hath three tokens, that all mē may look well upon: namely, unity, antiquity, & consent.

These three, may be as well in evil as in good, as well in sin as in virtue, as well in the devils church as in gods church: As for ensample, Idolatry amongst the Israelites had all those three. Chrysostom telleth plainly, as you well know, that the church is well known, Tantūmodo per scripturas, alonely by the scriptures.

In good faith, you make your Church invisible whē you will have it known alonely by the scriptures.

No Sir the Scriptures do plainly set forth to us the church, that all mē may well enough thereby know her, if they li • t to look.

The Church is like a Tower or town upon a hill, that all men may see.

True Syr, all men that be not blind. Uisible enough is the church, but men's blindness is great. Impute not therefore to the Church, that which is to be imputed to men's blindness.

Where was your Church fourtye years ago? or where is it now? except in a corner of Germany?

Forsoothe Syr, the Church of Christ is dispersed, and not tied to this or that place, but to the word of God: so that where it is, there is God's Church, if it be truly taught.

Loe, is not this to make the church invisible? point me out a Realm a hundred years past, which maintained your doctrine?

Syr, if you will, or would well mark the state of the Church before Christ's coming, with it now (as S. Paul and Peter willeth us) I think you would not look for such shows of the Church to be made, as to point it by Realms. You know that in Helias time both in Israel, and else where, God's Church was not poyntable: & therefore cried he out that he was left alone.

No mary, did not God say, that there was 7000. which had not bowed their knees to Baal? Loe then 7000. show me seven thowsande a hundred years ago of your Religion.

Syr, these 7000. were not known to men, for then Helias would not have said, that he had been left alone. And it is plain enough by that, which the text hath, namely that God saith, Reliqui mihi, I have reserved to me. 7000. Mark that it saith, God had reserved to himself, to his own knowledge, as I doubt not but a hundredth years ago God had his 7000. in his proper places, though men knew not thereof.

Well, Mayster Bradford, I will not make your case worse, then for transubstantiation, although I know that we agree not in other matters. And I pray you make you it yourself not worse. If I can do you good, I will: hurt you I will not. I am no Prince, & therefore I cannot promise you life, except you will submit yourself to the definition of the Church.

Syr, so that you will define me your church, that under it you bring not in a false Church: you shall not see but that we shall soon be at a point.

In good faith M. Bradford, I see no good will be done, & therefore I will wish you as much good as I can, and hereafter I will perchance come or send to you again, and so he sent for M. Weale, and departed.

Mayster Bradford answered: Well, I thank God. For as men in sailing, which be near to the shore or havē where they would be, would be nearer: even so the nearer I am to God, the nearer I would be.

Sir, I have never seen you so strong & healthsom of body, as me think you be now, God be thanked for it.

Why, quoth he, I have given over all care & study, and only do I covet to be talking with him, whom I have always studied to be withal.

Well, God hath done much for you, since the time that I fir •• knew you, and hath wrought wonderously in you to his glory.

Truth it is, for he hath dealt favorably with me, in that he hath not punished me according to my sins, but hath suffered me to live, that I might seek repentance.

Truly we hear say, there is a rod made so grievous, out of the which I think no man shall pluck his head.

Well, let all that be of Christ's flock, arm thenselves to suffer, for I think verily, God will not have one of his to escape untouched, if he love him, let them seek what means or ways they can.

We • l sir, there goeth a talk of a Friar that should preach before the king, & should tell him, that he should be guilty of the innocent blood that hath been shed of late.

Verily, quoth Bradford, I had a book within these two days of his writing, & therein he saith, that it is not me •• nor convenient that the heretics should live: & therefore I have marvel how that talk should rise, for I have heard of it also, and I have also talked with this Friar (he is named Friar Fonse) and with diverse other, & I praise God, they have confirmed me: for they have nothing to say but that which is most vain.

Syr, Father Cardmaker hath him commended unto you.

How doth he, how doth he?

Well God be thanked.

I am very glad thereof: for in deed for my lord Chancellor did cast him in my teeth, but as David saith, God hath disappointed him.

Forsooth, God's name be praised, he is very strong.

And I trust, so are we. What else? our quarrel is most just: therefore let us not be afraid.

My maystres hath her recommended unto you.

How doth she?

Well, God be praised, but she hath been sorer afflicted with her own father and mother, then ever you were with your imprisonment, and yet God hath preserved her, I trust, to his glory.

I pray you tell her, I read this day a godly history, written by Basilius magnus, of a virtuous woman which was a widow, and was named Iuleddo. She had great lands, and many childrē, and nigh her dwelled a Cormorant, which for her vertuousnes, & godly living had great indignitiō at her, & of very malice he took away her lands, so that she was constrained to go to the law with him: & in conclusion the matter came to the trial before the Judge, who demanded of this Tyrant why he wrongfully with held these lands frō this woman. He made answer & said: he might so do, for (saith he) this womā is disobedient to y ^e kings proceedings: for she will in no wise worship his gods nor offer sacrifice unto thē. Then the Judge hearing that, said unto her: Womā, if this be true, thou art not only like to loose thy land, but also thy life, unless that thou worship our gods, and do sacrifice unto them. This godly woman hearing that, stepped me forth to the Judge, & said: Is there no remedy, but either to worship your false gods, or else to loose my lands & life? then farewell suit, farewell lands, farewell childrē, farewell friends, yea & farewell life too: and in respect of y ^e true honor of the everliving God, farewell all. And with that saying did the Judge commit her to prison, and afterward she suffered most cruel death: and being brought to the place of execution, she exhorted all womē to be strong and constant. For (saith she) ye were redeemed with as dear a price as men. For although ye were made of the rib of the man, yet be you also of his flesh: so that also in the case & trial of your faith towards God, ye ought to be as strong. And thus died she constantly, not fearing death. I pray you tell your Maistresse of this history.

That shall I sir by God's grace: for she told me that she was with you and M. Saunders, and received your gentle counsel.

We never gave her other counsel but the truth, & in witness thereof we have & will seal it with our bloods. For I thought this night that I had been sent for, because at a 11. of the clock there was such rapping at the door.

Then answered a maid, and said: why thē I perceive you were afraid.

Ye shall hear how fearful I was. For I considered that I had not slept, and I thought to take a nap before I went: and after I was a sleep, these men came into the next chamber, and sang, as it was told me, and yet for all my fearfulness I heard thē not: therefore belike I was not afraid, that slept so fast.

Do you lack anything toward your necessity?

Nothing but your prayers, & I trust I have them, and you mine.

I saw a priest come to you today in the morning.

Yea, he brought me a letter from a Friar, and I am writing an answer.

Then we let you, therefore the living God be with you.

And with you also, and bless you.

Amen, said we, and gave him thanks, & departed.