Dialogue Wherein a Romish Rhyme is Confuted

Sir, you have reason, not to over-see her: and I will here attend your return upon the way.

Now, in little more than an hours space, Philadelphus, returning, had this Speach: How-so-ever I have taken short time, yet in it, have I learned some-what, which I cannot but regrate unto you. I have been visiting a Gentle-woman (I may say) of good parts other-ways, but that, by the deceit of Seducers, her Heart is alienated from the Veritie of GOD HIS true Worship: Which, through the love I bear her, so pierceth me, as I could not choose, but, in the little Conference we had, to ask her, why she did so obstinatelie obfirme her mind against Truth? She answered me, That she could obtain no Resolution to her Soul, of such Scruples, as chiefly moved her to abhor our Communion; all-be-it she had so far sought for it, that she had delivered her Doubts, in writ, to their Minister, Theriomachus: who receiving them of her hand, with covenant of an Answer, yet had done nothing for his acquytall there-in. And, verily, if you were acquainted with her, you would think, that all pains were carefully to be employed, where-by she might be reclaimed from Error.

I cannot, but greatly wonder at this you tell me: for I know Theriomachus to be learned, in such measure, as he might well enough have acquyted him-self in ought she had, in that matter, either required of him, or he promised unto her. But it is well, that you have made me foreseen here-with; for I look, that even here Theriomachus shall set him-self to meet us; and so we may there-by know of him the whole Case. Loe where he cometh, exceeding opportunity. GOD save you, Brother Theriomachus.

The LORD bless you both: and I am glad •… o see you in these Quarters.

How do you like ( Theriomachus ) of your Station here?

A Soldier must obey his Captayne, and acquiesce in what-so-ever Station he pleaseth to assign him: for He is wisest, and well knoweth, what best fitteth everyone of us. My Station hath taught me, so experimentallie, what the Apostle meaned, by his fighting with Beasts at Ephesus, and I have acquyred such both an active, and a passive understanding there-of, as I may be bold to say, I could write a large Commentary upon that place.

I take you well ( Theriomachus: ) you must have patience: For, how-so-ever no part is so barren, but that it produceth some fine Spirits; yet, in such a nature of Climate and Soyle as this is, it is no marvel, though the people, in common, have some in-bred feritie, which, yet, Tyme and Travel may reduce to some more mansuetude.

You have, Sir, in a part, but not thorowlie, taken up my Case: For besides any in-bred feritie, they are, most parte of them, enchanted.

What! hath the Rodde of Cyrce touched them? or hath any Thessalonian cunning converted their shapes, and made them Asses of Men, as was Lucius Apuleius? that it may seem the fore-sight of this Fatalitie, hath made this your Parochin to be named 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 : and you, accordingly, do find, that, in effect, they are 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 . Yet, Theriomachus, you know, that Asses are peaceable and obsequious Beasts, ready to receive Burdens, wherethrough your fight may be the more easy.

But they are wild Asses, and hear not the voice of the Dryver: and are like to those Horses and Mules, whose Mouthes must be bound up with Bit and Brydle, lest they come near us. Yea, their Inchaunters have so 'bewitched them, as they are maniable only to them, and wayward towards all others. And they are even so contentedlie miserable, as they have no desire to be disinchaunted.

You tell us wonders: For, thus, these Inchaunters should far exceed all Cyrcees cunning, who, though she turned the bodily shape, yet could not bereave the Inchaunted of their Myndes and Memories, but that they remembered still their proper state, and regrated, inwardly, their present condition. And the Thessalonian Magicians, could work no more on Lucius Apuleius.

You, yet, in a part, missconceiue me. I mean not of any turning of their bodily shapes, which they retain still, of Men, whiles yet their Mynds are miserably metamorphosed.

Brother Theriomachus, you know, that, for making any, who have drunken Poison, to vomit it again, sweet Milk, especially, must be given them to drink: and, for a Chylde, which hath been misfostered, by sucking in corrupted Milk, you know, that healthsome green Milk is the best Restoratiue. And thus only, in my judgment, you must labor, first, to disinchaunt this people, till, by consuetude, their feritie be mittigated, and their Stomackes brought to bear more solid Nowrishment. And, as Philadelphus, even now, alluded, very prettilie, to the name of 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 ; so may the name of one most special place, here, warn us, by Notation, what, both for it self, and for the rest, is requisite: even 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 . It is our Lot, Brother, to be amongst Briers and Thorns, and to dwell in the middes of Scorpions: and our LORD warned us of our Condition, when He sent His Apostles, as Sheep, in the middes of Wolves. There is none of our Calling, and truly called, but, in some measure, hath this Battle with Beasts: For, as the fear of the LORD, and the keeping of His Commandments, is all the Man; so a Man, even in honor, if he understand not, is but l •… ke the Beasts that perish. I must, indeed, confess, that you (Brother) are more exercised than many others: where-through we are holden in a singular care, to comfort you, and in-call GOD, for your up-holding; who is sufficiently able to bear you out in that Service He hath put you in, and to furnish you Strength, according to the Burden He hath laid on you. But this our Digression upon your Theriomachie, hath set us a-side of that which principally we had to impart unto you, and for which we are specially glad, that we are so convenientlie conveaned. Then, turning Eye to Philadelphus; Sir, you can best make relation, of that which you did latelie hear, and where-with, there-upon, you did immediately acquaynt me.

You know, Theriomachus, that the Lady of yonder Place, is my tender Kins-woman, and is commended, for both Natural and Civil Gifts; for zeal also in Religion, but without knowledge. I asking her, this same day, why she did remain so refractary against the Truth? She answered, That she could find no Resolution to her Soul, of such Doubts, as chiefly moved her to abhor our Communion; all-be-it she had so far sought for it, that she had delivered them to you, in writ: and that you, receiving them of her hand, upon covenant of an Answer, yet had done nothing for your acquytall there-in▪ So as this is not only an imputation to you, of failing promise; but it strengtheneth her also the more in Error, while your ceasing maketh her think her Questions so strong, that you can find nothing to answer to them.

The Commendation which that Lady carrieth, for those partes you mention of her, I acknowledge to be most just. It is true, she delivered to me some Questions, in writ; to all which, in conference with her self, I answered, as far, as in my judgment, might have satisfied any Soul, set singlie for Resolution. As for any answer in writ, I neither promised, and asking advise of my Brethren, of our Presbyterie, if it were expedient, and, in that case, offering there-to my pains, they thought it no ways convenient, to write anything against so ridiculous, and ofttimes confuted, Cavillations.

Have you those Questions by you, that we may see them?

Here they are. So taking out a sheet of paper, he gave it in Eubulus hands: who, unfolding it, What, Brother, this is a Ryme?

So it is.

I pray you, Eubulus, let us hear it.

Then Eubulus, having read it over, with a sober Smyle, looked to Philadelphus, and said, What do you think, Sir, of these Wares? Is there in them any such matter of high boasting to our Adversaries, as that we should be stirred, to make them answer? Then, turning to Theriomachus, Truelie, Brother, I both reverence the wise judgment of the Presbyterie, and approve your acquiescing there-to. And, verily, I both marvel, and greatly pity, that a person, other-ways so well endued, should be misscarried with such foolish things: which, all-be-it they have been many times answered, by diverse, and that I have latelie answered each of them particularly, in my Defense of our Callinges, and Discoverie of the Adversaries Dotage, in the very self Demands, in substance, sent to myself; yet simple Souls are still borne in hand, That these, forsooth, are insoluble Knots. And it is, indeed, no marvel, that they delude so securelie, when, first, they have brought their Disciples here-to, That they neither will read what we write, nor hear what we teach. And if, perhaps, upon any such motion, as this is, from any of them, we fall to write ought, it is, immediately (without any either reading or pondering what we speak) put in their Ghostlie Fathers hands: whose word syne, they take for the estimation it is to be had in; as I have latelie learned, even by mine own experience.

I cannot deny, Eubulus, but you have great reason to speak so: yet, in any Case, I would, that one of you should say some-what to these Questions; where-by, if the misscarried party may not be converted, (as mine hearts desire were) yet at least the Questioner his bragging may be calmed some-what.

For my pa •… t, I mind not to answer ought, both because in mine other Treatises, I have already said, what I esteemed needful, (whence any, who in singleness seeketh Resolution, will not weary to search it) and because I ever abhorred such kind of contestation: for that, what, or how oft so-ever we answer, yet still the same things shall be of new, and impudentlie, obtruded. If you, Brother Theriomachus, think it good, you may satisfy Philadelphus here-in: and the Adversarie's insolency shall so answer for you, to your Brethren, as you need not fear to find them such severe Judges, as was Manlius to his valiant Son.

What you judge, were idle labor for you: how can I be there-in laudablie occupied? if any expediency were of an Answer, it lieth now most on you; for mine imputation is past, and the next, undoubtedly, will be yours. And as it cannot escape their knowledge, that you have both craved, and gotten, a sight of their Questions; so this will be their glorying, That from man to man, we have all spitted at them, and given them over.

I am glad, Brother, that in this your daily Combat with Beasts, you are not yet so mated, but that you are chearfullie disposed to jest with your Friends. If such motives as these did always stir us, as our Adversaries are disposed, there should never be any ende of jangling. Always, if it please you, I will retain this Rime some days, and there-after send it unto you.

So that you send it back, with what-so-ever children you shall beget upon it, that I may have mine own, with increase: and now, with this condition, I must take my leave of you both, for such instant necessities as force me, against my will, to break you company: and I perceive some others casting them-selves in the way to meet you. The Blessing of the LORD be with you.

Philadelphus, and Eubulus, The Grace of GOD accompany, comfort, and strengthen you.

You see ( Philadelphus ) upon how light and small grounds, our Adversaries build up to them-selves, matter of glorying against us: but, I pray you, what two Gentlemen are these, who, as seemeth, are drawing towards us?

If I take them rightly up, the one is Eriphilus, and the other is Philomathes; both two Papists, but of a much-different disposition: for this Eriphilus, is of a bitter, and contentious humor; the other, Philomathes, of a sweet, modest, natural, and, other-ways, as towardlie a Gentleman, as I know any; but that he is not, yet, well lightened in the true way of GOD His fear: and, I think, they be coming to salute me. These same are the Men.

Do you know ( Eriphilus ) what Gentle-man this is, which accompanieth Philadelphus?

What? ( Philomathes ) have you not, as yet, known Eubulus? whom, I cannot tell, what phreneticke Fansies, or melancholious Mi •… contentmentes, have, of late years, driven of a private Gentle-man, to become a Preacher: and, he hath so bewitched the miscarried fancy of Philadelphus, that he maketh no small account of his fellowship: yea, even my Lord, his Father, and my Lady, his Mother, carry him no less reverence, and love, than if he were, forsooth, a person of some worth.

And is this, indeed, Eubulus? verily, I am glad I have the occasion to see him; for he hath the report of a discreet Gentle-man, and that he hath some good Gift in teaching; and I have much longed to hear him.

What! Philomathes, do you account it a lawful thing to hear any of these Heretics? This Eubulus, I tell you, is an Orator, and can persuade foolish people, to wiene much of him. And I will not deny, but he hath some piece of prudent and fair Carriage: but Catholics ought so much the more to shun his fellowship, lest they be deceived with Showes.

Verelie, ( Eriphilus ) I cannot altogether allow of your judgment in this: for all-be-it I mislike their Church, yet I have heard some of their Preachers speak, both powerfullie, and holilie; so as I cannot deny, but I have been some-times both instructed, and edified by them. And, if we will lay aside Passion and Praejudice, we must acknowledge, that there be some of them, who are both excellently learned, and exemplarlie holy men. And thus much have I gained by hearing of them, that certainly, I perceive our Writers to lay against them, many unjust imputations, so to make their doctrine odious: as if they did maintain things, where-of I have often heard them teach the contrary. And, for me, I never can approve, that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies.

To speak plainly to you, ( Philomathes ) I think you are little from halting betwixt two: and I cannot account him a true Catholic, who will either hear, or in anything approve such Heretics; or will so much as once call in question, what-so-ever the Church enjoineth.

I will bear with you, to judge of me as you please: but I both am a true Catholic, and do reverence the Church; yet without light, indifferently, to embrace all things, I think it not only brutish, but also unlawful for Christians, who have to try what they hold. And verily, (saving the judgment of holy Church) that opinion of implicit Faith, hath both much disgraced the Catholic Cause, and hath made our Doctrine to be suspected of mani •… . But it is high time for us, to salute these Gentle-men.

G OD save you, Masters.

GOD save you, Philomathes, and you Eriphilus. Do your Effaires lie this way?

This same is our way: and though it were not, yet we had reason to offer you the duty of Convoy; so, as if it be not displeasant unto you, we will, for a space, keep you company.

Your company is to us very acceptable.

But, I pray you, good Sir, was it not the Minister, Theriomachus, who, a little hence, did part from you?

You have judged rightly.

And how falleth it, for all his Clergy, that, now in almost half a year, he cannot find an Answer to one Sheete of Paper? which yet he received, with no small presumption, that, how-so-ever Pitch was defiling, yet he re •… mbled an hot Tongs, which could contract no Contagion there-by.

By what Logic will you infer, ( Eriphilus ) because he hath made no Answer there-to, that, therefore, he could find none to give it? Know you not, that by the holy Ghost His own Testimony, it is some-times foolishness to make answer? And yet how are you bold to affirm, he hath not answered it? Have you heard all the Conference he ever had, with the party-presenter of that Sheete of Paper, since the time he received it? He hath written nothing there-to (you will say.) But from the defect of a written Answer, to conclude of no answer at all, it is an halting argumentation. And ha •… honest men, think you, who are busied in their public Callings, nothing else a-do, but to waste time and travel, in entertaining Plea with Contentions, and idle humors, upon every peevish Pamphlet, put out by them, of things a thousand times refuted?

You have set down, in your Sonnet, a most certain truth. For myself, I protest, I ever abhorred all contention, and bitterness in disputing. And, who for any other ende maintain Argument, but in an upright and calm care, to find out Truth, they are both displeasant to others, and unprofitable to themselves. But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter, and we have so convenient occasion of Eubulus company, and the time shall be, so well spent; I would entreat Eubulus, that, if he hath ought to answer to these Questions, he will vouchsafe to speak it: and this, I protest, I require, in uprightness; because I do think, there be diverse of them, to which, hardly, shall he find any good answer.

I never refused to confer calmlie with any, but I hate contention: and if you ( Philomathes ) jump with me in this humor, I will obey your request the more gladly; and, I hope, our Conference shall not be altogether fruitless. Have you, then, these Questions by you? and, if not, I can, perhaps, supply your want.

I have them here, and will read them to yo •… in order: yet I am glad, that you have already seen them, for you may answer the more resolutelie to each. This, then, is the Inscription:

I perceive that you are already acquainted with it. How say you then, ( Philadelphus ) is it not, indeed, a proper Ballad?

How proper his Ballad is, let poëts judge. Out of my little skill, I may boldly affirm, that, for any, either grace it bringeth to his Art, or credit to his Cause, he might right well have contented him-self to speak in Prose: but his form is good aneugh for his matter; and he is, I warrand you, no worse Poët than he proveth, evidently, a weak Divine.

It is by evincing Syllogisms, I trow, and not by invectiue Sonnets, ( Philadelphus ) that you must answer to these Questions.

By a Sonnet one may very convenientlie give sentence of a Song: and Philadelpbus will but let you see, ( Eriphilus ) that we are not so far borne in despite of all the Muses, but that we could render you as compact Verses, as any your proper Ballad hath in it. Yet, let it be as you desire: we will leave Sonnets a little, and come to Syllogisms. Philomathes, read on.

Gladlie. Thus then he beginneth.

This hath been the Question, which in all times perverse and ignorant men, have pretended for them, as is clear by these words of Chrysostom, Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man saith▪ I would be a Christian, but I know not to whom I should clean: Manie Debates are amongst you▪ I know not what Doctrine to choose; seeing on both sides they pretend Scripture. Answer him, This maketh much for us: For if we did say, that our Faith were grounded upon natural reasons, thou hadst reason to be troubled: but when we betake us to the Scriptures, which are plain and true, thou mayest easily discern. If any man agree with Them, he is a Christian: and who so oppugneth Them, he is far from this Rule.

This same Chrysostom, in 2. ad Thessal. 2. All things are clear and plain in divine Scriptures: what-so-ever things are necessary, are manifest in them.

Agayne, the same Chrysostom, in Ioann. cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures lead us to GOD, and open to us the knowledge of Him: they both make, and keep the Sheep: neither suffer they Wol •… es to break in: For, as a most strong Door, they debar Heretics, and place the Godly in surety. Neither (so being we be willing) shall they ever suffer us to fall away in Error.

Now, all-be-it I well might, for all answer, oppose to your Poet, these Passages; yet, lest you complain, ( Philomathes ) that I pass him too slenderlie, I take up the sum of your Man his main Question, to be this: Amongst so many diverse Sects, all rehearsing the common Creed, and each acclayming the Title of the Church, howe, and by what Marks, we may discern the true Church of CHRIST, from such as falselie do usurp that Title?

You have exceeding well taken up the state of the Question. And, I pray you, is it not a necessary Question, and worthy of a careful consideration?

Yea, verily: but in proponing where-of, and in answering there-to, your Questione •… bewrayeth, either want of Care, or want of Skill, or (which is worse) want of Conscience. For, if he could prove moe Sectes than he proponeth, (as both he professeth, and I confess he might) why would he not rather produce them, than, for malicious up-making of a number, where no number is, make them diverse, who are but one? For every difference of Opinion, maketh not a diverse Sect: much less do diverse names of men, who disagree in no material point.

You miss-take the matter, ( Eubulus ) it is not maliciouslie done of him, but for Metres sake, to make up his Verses, which, other-ways, would not have run well.

Well: this is his least, all-be-it even a lourd-Error. But next, ( Philomathes ) for resolution of his Question, if he had not willingly set him-self to wander out of a right and plain way, so to draw others after him, in the dark Mist of drumblie Disputations, he might have taken the only sure, and infallible Mark, from CHRIST His own Mouth: Who, as he is the only LORD of the House, great Shepherd of the Sheep, and Bridegroom of the Bryde; so can He, best of any, lead us to know them rightly.

That must be of all other the most certain Note: and I long to hear it.

CHRIST giveth His Sheep this Mark, That they know the voice of the great Shepherd, and follow it; and that they will not follow the voice of a Stranger, for they know it not. Where-by that is undoubtedly the true Church, where the voice of CHRIST, and His voice only, is purelie preached, and religiouslie received. If any man love Mee, be will keep My Word; and My Father will love him; and We will come to him, and will dwell with him. He that loveth Mee not, keepeth not My Words, &c.

This is most true: but the Question remaineth still, as doubtful as before: for, what-so-ever Company doeth acclaime to it self, the Title of the Church, they no less boldly affirm, that they do hear the voice of CHRIST; so, as you have, but cast us in a new dispute, what i •… CHRIST His voice, which his true Sheep do hear; and by hearing where-of, they may be discerned to be of His Sheep-fold.

Neither CHRIST, nor His Apostles, nor the succeeding Orthodox Fathers, have left place, to make question here-of, to any, who willfully winketh not: for He hath left us His holy Scriptures, and commandeth to search them, for a Witness of Him. Now, the way to know Him, and, to know His true Church, (which is his fullness) must of necessity be one. More-over, that which maketh the man of GOD wise, absolute, and perfect to every good work, must make him wise, to discern the true Church also. But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise, absolute, and perfect to every good work; therefore, they make him wise, to discern the true Church also. So then, the Scriptures are CHRIST His voice, and they only are now to be held for His voice: for, In vain do men worship, (saith the LORD) teaching for Doctrines, the Traditions of men. And, when-so-ever any Church falleth to hear any other Voice, or follow any other Speaker, then She looketh aside, to the Flocks of his Companions, and of a faithful City, beginneth to become an Harlor. And, as Jerome pertinentlie speaketh, Egredietur e finibus suis; She transgresseth her own Limits. Your men, Philomathes, darken all disputation, by deceit of Aequivocations, and confounding of distinct Considerations, and Cases. It is a much different thing, to discern the Church of CHRIST, in common, from Infidels & Foreigners. And, again, in that community of the Church, to discern betwixt the true worshippers, and the false; betwixt the true Church, and the Synagogue of Satan, calling themselves Jews, and yet are not. And, who, for concluding of this, would bring the common notes of that, he were a doting Divine, and a no less ridiculous Logician, than he, who for discerning a man from a beast, would bring the common properties of a living creature: for, how-so-ever the common notes of Christians, good, or bad, of Orthodox, or Heretics, of CHRIST, or Antichrist, will distinguish the common body (in which all these are) from Foreigners: yet, to discern betwixt the true body, and the inherent evil; betwixt lawful, and adulterous worship; betwixt the Bryde, and the pretending Whoore; (both of them in, though not both of the body) there is none other sure note, or mark of discretion, but the Scriptures only. When you shall see (saith Chrysostom) ungodly Heresy, which i •… the Army of Antichrist, standing in the holy places of the Church, then let them who are in Judea, flee to the Mountainest that is, they who are of Christianity, dress them-selves to the Scriptures: because, from that Heresy hath once obtained place in the Churches, there can be no trial of true Christianity; neither any other refuge for Christians, willing to know the verity of the Faith, but the divine Scriptures. And in that same place: Before, many ways were shown, which was the Church of CHRIST; but now, no manner of way, hut by the Scriptures. For, (saith the same Chrysostom, or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect work upon Matthew) if men look to ought else, they shall stumble, and perish, not understanding which is the true Church: and shall fall, there-by, in the abomination of desolation, which standeth in the holy places of the Church. We think it not equitable, (saith Basilius) that such custom of speech, as hath taken place with them, should be held for a Law, and Canon of right Doctrine: for, if custom were of force enough to prove right Doctrine, we might also imitate them here-in. Let us stand, therefore, to the decision of Scripture, inspyred from GOD, and with whom are found heads of Doctrine, consonant to the divine Oracles; let Veritie be all-to-gether adjudged unto them. Non oportet (saith Irenaeus) quaerere apud alios veritatem, cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis: that is, We must not seek Truth else-where, seeing the Apostles have most plentifully, as in a rich Store-house, put together all things that belong to Truth. Non haec autilla. (saith Augustine) alteri parti suspecta objiciantur, sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae: that is, Let not such things be objected, as are suspected of either party; but let the common Armor, the Scriptures be taken. I might bring many moe such Testimonies of the Fathers, where-by your man his unnecessary nycenesse, ( Philomathes ) in making so great a Question, how Truth, and the true Church, may be discerned, from Lies, and heretical companies, bewrayeth evidently, what upright affection he hath, either to find the true way him-self, or to lead others there-in.

When all that you have said is granted, (so as not only those be the true Sheep, which hear CHRIST His voice, but that His voice also be determined to be the holy Scriptures) yet the Question remaineth vnsolved. For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church, and profess the hearing of CHRIST His voice; so do they all allege Scripture for them. And this was, not obscurelie, implied in the Question, in that all rehearse the common Creed: so as nothing appeareth to be yet brought of you, which will rid the Debate.

To this I answer: First, all-be-it all pretend Scripture, yet all pretend not Scripture only, (which, both by Scripture, and by clear Testimony of Orthodox Antiquity, I have proved, in the Case here questioned, to be the only Rule:) for your Church of Rome joineth, and equalleth with Scripture, her own Canons, and Traditions; and there-by declareth evidently, all her worship to be vain. Hoc nimis doleo (saith Augustine) quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt, minus curantur & tam multis praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia, ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditions negligit, quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit: that is, I much lament, for that many things, which in the holy Scriptures are most healthsomlie written, are little regarded; and all things are so full of manifold presumptions, as he is more grievouslie punished, who neglecteth those human Traditions, than who hath buried his mind in Drunkenness. If that holy Father did find such matter of lamentation, for those small beginnings, (in comparison) which the mystery of your Antichristian Iniquity, at that time not so far as yet advanced, had come to; what had been the measure of his grief, if he had seen it in the top of Presumptuous Impiety?

What, Eubulus, will you make us, therefore, to hear another voice than CHRIST'S, because we hear the voice of the Church? Is not the voice of the Church, CHRIST'S own voice? saith He not in Scripture. He who heareth you; heareth Mee; and be who despyseth you, despyseth Mee?

Too great heat ( Eriphilus ) maketh you to overreach yourself, and so to stumble, both in Logic, and in Divinity. Your Error in Logic, is, that you take that for an Argument, which is the very Poynt in Question. All our Dispute, is, what Company, of so many Acclaimers, is the true Church of CHRIST. In this Question, proponed to us by your Poët, we are come thus far, That who hear CHRIST'S voice, and His voice only. We have laid also this ground, That the Scriptures are only to be held for His voice. Upon which ground, I challenged your Church, as adding to her own. Now here for your defense, that your Decrees must be counted CHRIST'S voice; and that even by Scripture, you assume, that you are the Church; and, where the Sheep are to be tried, by the voice which they do hear, you will, therefore, justify the voice, because you, forsooth, do hear it. And by such Logic as this, what may you not conclude? You might, with more credit, tell us in plain Tearmes, That you will not have it put in question, but that you are the Church: than appear to put that point in trial, and incontinent, to take it for a Principle, which is the very Poynt controverted. Now, as this is your fault in Logic, and that exceeding chyldish; so, in Divinity, you miss, and more dangerouslie. Because the LORD affirmeth, That who heareth the Church, heareth Him; and who despyseth them, despyseth Him; if Pastors, under the pretext of this Power, should presume, absolutely, to impose on Consciences, what they please; binding Christians, indifferently, without proving, to admit all; it were an impudent, yea, an impious usurpation: For these speeches of CHRIST have always this implied Condition, That Pastors speak nothing, but the words of the Great Shepherd: For, the words of the Wyse, are like Goades, and like Nayles, &c. which are given by one Pastor. Were they not, I pray you, the ordinary Churchmen, whom the LORD rebuked, for burdening Consciences, with Traditions, even of Fathers? And were not those Traditions, where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition, the Traditions of the Church? Doeth not the same Father affirm, That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum, sicubi falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant: that is, We ought not consent, no, not with Catholic Bishops, if they hold a •… e opinion contrary to the canonicke Scriptures. For (as Cyprian saith) Consuetudo sine veritate, vetustas est erroris: Custom without Truth, is but Antiquity of Error. And the Saying of Ruffinus, on the Creed, is notable: Non dicimus, Credo in Ecclesiam, sed, Credo Ecclesiam: ne eadem vis & authoritas videatur Creatoris, & creaturae; Domini & Ministrorum▪ that is, We say not, I believe in the Church, but, I believe the Church: lest one and the same, might appear to be the power and auth •… ritie of the Creator, and the creature, of the LORD, and of His Servantes. Augustine affirmeth, Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum, & ipsa consilia reprehendere, si qua in •… e a veritate devient: That it is lawful to repr •… oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops, yea, and the Councils them-selves, if in anything they decly •… e from the •… rueth. Because he who heareth the King his Ambassador, or Herald, heareth the King; and who despyseth them, despyseth the King; have either Ambassadors or Heralds an •… libe •… tle, here-upon, to exceed the bounds of then Commissions and Warrandes? Or, have not the parties, who other-ways, are hold̄ to hear either of th •… m; yet place le •… t them (without any diminution of the Sovereign Majesty, and Royal Authority) both to ask for, and to examine their Warrandes? We have but one LORD, and one Law-giver: and so only doeth the contempt of our voice touch Him, if our voice be the Echo of His voice, and we speak not out of our own imaginations. Other-ways, the many sad, and serious Warninges, given us to try spirits, were vain.

Then, turning speech to Philomathes. Eriphilus heat for your Church, ( Philomathes ) hath all-most hailed me quite from our Question. You objected, That all Sects pretend Scripture. I answered, That all pretended not Scripture only; for that your Church joineth, and aequalleth with Scripture, her own Devyses. Now, to divert here farther to the Question of the Churches power in this point, and whether she may err, or not, it were to slyde away from our present point: and I have disputed that matter at length, in my Defense of our Callinges. I give the Case, then, that your Church, and all others, acclayming the Title, did pretend Scripture only: yet, it is one thing to pretend Scripture, and another to have Scripture truly for them: It is one thing to rehearse the common Creed, and another thing to hold the points there-of: Yea, and one thing to hold them falselie, and but in show, and another to hold them truly. One may in word and profession, hold JESUS to have come in the flesh; and yet, in effect, deny it, and so be an Antichrist. None can call JESUS LORD, but by the Spirit of GOD, (saith the Scripture:) and yet the same Scripture witnesseth, That not all who call Him LORD, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If Heretics did not pretend Scripture, they could not greatly deceive; no more than the Philistines had declared Samsons Riddle, if they had not plowed with his Heyfer. And this, indeed, were to yield Satan an easy victory: if, because (for more effectual deceit) he maketh to clothe him-self with our Weapons, we should, therefore, fayntlie forsake them, and for-g •… e that which by our LORD is left us, for our only Armor, Rule of our Ways, and Sole Ground, and Pillar of our Faith, (as saith Irenaeus ) so to wander, and perish, in the Wilderness of Men's Inventions.

Verilie, ( Philomathes ) it is exceeding strange, that your Teachers have so far persuaded their Disciples; that reading of Scripture, to Laike persons, (as they call them) is not only unprofitable for resolution, but also dangerous for breeding Errors: Thus verifying of themselves, that saying of Irenaeus, speaking of Heretics, Cum ex Scriptures arguuntur, in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum: that is, When they are argued by Scriptures, they turn then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selves: Al-be-it, we see the Bereans are highly praised, for searching Scripture, and examining there-by, what was offered unto them; and their example is registrated by the holy Ghost, for a permanent instruction, in such case, to all succeeding Ages. And it is even monstrous to consider, how far your guydes have brought their followers, not only to neglect, but even to contemn; yea, and condemn, in Laike men, the reading of holy Scripture. So, as I cannot tell, whether with greater horror, I have often heard their disdainful speeches, against Scripture: or, with dolour, and compassion, I have perceived, how some of them, presuming much of Knowledge; and, other-ways, prowdlie, peart to prattle, in Controversies of Religion, and to talk at Tables, of some cunned, and dismembered Testimonies of the Fathers; yet, in the Sacred BIBLE, were as great strangers, as in the Alcoran.

If any man, either speak vnreverentlie of Scripture, or condemn the reading there-of, by Laike persons, I am not to make good for that; for myself, I both reverence them, and esteem the reading of them, in Sobernesse, and Humility, to all sorts of men, not only lawful, but also profitable, and necessary. Neither did that, which I objected to Eubulus, tend to draw men all-to-gether from Scripture: but, seeing that not only all Heretics pretend Scripture, each drawing out there-of, a Sense, for corroboration of their own Opinions: but that there is also a manifold, and great diversity of interpretation amongst all men, (where-through it is clear, howe doubtful and obscure the meaning of Scripture is.) It would appear, that all-be-it we have not to forsake, or despise Scripture; yet, for Resolution, which is the true Sense, that we must seek some other Rule. And what can that be else, but that, leaving all other Interpretations, we hold that which the Catholic Church avoucheth.

Do you not perceive, ( Philomathes ) howe, against all Logic Laws, you reduce our Disputation, to a Circle: and, so, not only you take that for a granted ground, which is the very point in question; but also fall, sensibly, in that same imputation, which you would appear so much to shun. We are disputing, Which is the true Church: and have evinced, That the only sure way to know Her, is by Scripture. So as of necessity, first Scripture must lead us to know (amongst common Acclaymers) which is She, before we can resolve to follow Her interpretation. I heartily yield, that Her interpretation be taken: but, in such Dispute, Who She is, we must first be assured, that it is the Bryde which speaketh, and not a masked Harlot, under that name. As for your Objection, of Scriptures obscurity, where-upon, by accusing Scripture, you would build an excuse, of seeking some other Rule, it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD, and is also, in it self, sophistical. It is clearly contumelious against GOD, in that CHRIST, commanding to search Scripture, for a clear witnessing of Him; the holy Ghost affirming by Peter, that the word of Scripture, is a sure and shining word; by Paul, that it is able to make the man of GOD wise, to every good work; and exhorting all men, & praising in all men, the diligent reading, and meditation there-of, there-by to discern spirits, and to prove what is propounded unto them: that David, all-most all-where, speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse, and power there-of, as where-by even a Chylde may learn to address his ways: Yet some of your men ( Philomathes ) are not ashamed, disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule, and a Nose of Wax: as if the Almighty, and only wise GOD, had not either wysely enough, or lovinglie, provyded for the direction of His House: and that men, forsooth, will, or can, find out a more clear and certain way. But, what-so-ever obscurity had appeared to be in Scripture; or, howe uncertain so-ever the vain and running Humours of men, might appear to make it, by their diversity of Interpretations; yet this should ever have religiouslietyed us there-to, that our LORD hath left it us, for a Lantern to our Feet, and sole and perpetual Ground of our Faith: studying, therefore, with all humility, cleanness of heart, and earnest prayer, to attain the knowledge there-of: and not proudlie, and rebelliouslie, to take such counsel, as did Israel in the Wilderness: We know not what is become of this Moses; make us, therefore, gods to go before us. The advyse of Augustine, is much more both sound and sober, than is that of your Church-men: That in reading of Scripture, if we cannot take up the very genuine sense, and meaning of the place, at least, let us not expound that place of Scripture, in a sense repugning to the Analogy of Faith: So shall we be like to a man, who how-so-ever he hath aberred from the direct way, yet he wandreth in the Fields, leading to the Town where-at he would be. I affirmed, ( Philomathes ) that your Objection, of Scriptures obscurity, was also Sophisticall; and thus I clear it: All reason of obscurity, must be either in the matter it self, or in the manner of delyverie, or in the weakness of their perception, to whom it is delyvered. Of divine things, we acknowledge, that, how-so-ever, for most real and constant existence, they be, of all things, the most certain: yet, that, for their retired eminency, to all creatures, of all things, the most obscure. But, for the manner of delivery, as GOD, in holy Scripture, hath revealed them, we affirm, that all the wisdom, and eloquence of all creatures, (even in a conceived matter) could never have found out so plain a manner; or, so far, and lovinglie, have attempered it, to the capacity of man, (as in so high mysteries, and a constant remaining Rule of Faith, was possible.) And yet, howso-ever they be thus delivered, we acknowledge, that no natural man, (and natural only) is capable of them: For they are spiritually discerned: But the spiritual man, by the Spirit of GOD in him, will discern the things of GOD.

To reason, then, from the natural obscurity, or retired eminency of the matter, to the manner of delivery: or, from the weakness of man's perception, to conclude of the manner of delivery: or, from the perception of the natural man, to conclude of the perception of the spiritual man, it were all-ways absurd Sophistication. We are bold to say, with the holy Ghost, That how-so-ever to most part of men, the Mysteries of the Kingdom be spoken in parables; that hearing, they may hear, and not understand; and seeing, they may see, and not perceive: Yet, That Whoso-ever doeth the will of the FATHER, they will know the Doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether men speak of them-selves: That CHRIST HIS true Sheep, know His Voice, and know the voice of a Stranger: We avouch, That the words of Wisdom, are all plain to him that will understand▪ and straight, to him that will find Knowledge: That Scorner, seeketh Wisdom, and findeth it not; but Knowledge is easy to him, that will understand. So, as if the Truth be hid, it is hid to them, whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out: and whom GOD, justly, either for misregard, or pride of mind, hath given over to the efficacy of Error, to groape even at noon day. Neither maketh your Sophisticall Objection, of diversity of Interpretation, against this: for, how-so-ever, many particular places in Scripture, appear still difficill, and doubtful to us, which but know in part, and prophesy in part: yet we affirm, (with Augustine ) That even in those things which are plainly set down in Scripture, are all things to be found, which contain Faith, and Rules of living; and that nothing, almost, is ripped out of the most obscure parts, which will not be found in some other place most plainly spoken.

To grant you even all that you have said, either of the plainness, or plentiful •… esse of holy Scripture; yet what shall you gain there-by, against our Questioner? or, how shall you justify the imputations, of want of Care. Skill, or Conscience, laid on him by you? seeing both our Church confesseth, that the Scripture showeth which be the true Markes of the Church; and such Notes as are here brought by our man, he proveth them all from Scripture.

How either proper, or pertinent, your Poet's Markes are, which he bringeth, and how well he proveth them from Scripture, or other-ways, we shall see, GOD willing, in the particular examination of each; where-by all his Corn shall be found but Chaff; and that carelessie, skillessie, or fraudfullie, he hath fled the only demonstrative Mark, to seduce the simple, with Topicall shows. You say, your Church acknowledgeth, that by Scripture, the true Marks of the Church are known. But ( Philomathes ) they fall never to say so, but when they are reduced to such straits, as either they must say it, or be snared, For their common Doctrine is well enough known, which can so little consist with this, which you have now granted, as the one, evidently, over-throweth the other. For, do not your men make all the authority of Scripture to depend so far on the Church her suffrage, as that therefore only you are sure, such & such to be canonicke Scriptures, because the Church hath so determined? Thus, monstrouslie, you make one, and the same, to be both the Mother and the Daughter, and of one.

But, thus, you tax Augustine no less than us, who affirmeth, that he would not believe Scripture, if the authority of the Church did not move him.

You deceive, ( Philomathes ) by concluding Theticallie, and absolutely, upon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth: and, so, you, unskillfully, confound diverse Cases. For, first, inducing of an Infidel, to believe Scripture, the Authority of the Church, is a great Motiue; or rather, (as Augustine calleth it) a Commotiue, and Opportanum inquirendi exordium: that is, A commodious entry, to inquire by. Now, from this special Case, and quality of Case, to infer, That the man by this Commotiue, first induced, had still there-after no other, or greater Warrand, for his Beliefe of Scripture, but the Authority of the Church, which first induced him: it were no better Logic, than to conclude of the Samaritans, That they never had any better Foundation of their Faith, than the Report of their Woman from the Well.

The Authority of the Church, may, and will often, induce an Infidel, to reverence, and believe Scripture: but so, as having come thus farte, then, in the community of that Church, to discern lawful, from unlawful worship; and, orthodox, from heretical professors, the Scriptures only must have place: as in a case, where-in to allege the Churches authority, were extreamlie ridiculous, it being the very point in question, what company is the Church. And I shown you before, how your men are always deceived, or at least, labor to deceive others, by confounding the case of the Church considered, absolutely, and in relation to Foreigners, and Infidels, and reasoning from it, (so considered) to the decyding of debate, 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church. In the first, the common notes are discretiue, and the common authority, a commotiue to induce; but in the other, there is no manner of way, but the Scriptures, as out of the Fathers I have cleared. And, now, ( •… lomathes ) to return to our poyn •… whence this your •… hreedbare Objection, from Augustine, hath driven •… ee. I pray you, if your men are forced to confess, That the Markes of the Church, are known by Scripture; why flee they from having all, both their Doctrine and Dealing, examined by that same Rule? What a shameless Sophistry is this, to •… ject Scripture, in the particular trial of every: Article of Faith; and yet, for a few wrested, and perv •… ed Sentences, where-by to prove some bastard▪ and beg •… yling Notes, therefore, impudentlie, to all eadge, That they, for sooth, do clear their Church, by Scripture? As if in all Scripture, the holy Ghost had but given some Notes, of a Company, where to seek our Faith; and no •… clearly set down the Faith, which we have to hold, and where-by to discern the Company which we have to cleave unto.

Your Cardinal Bellarmine, in answering to some clear Places of the Fathers, nearlie pinching him, (namely, of Augustine ) is forced to flee to this, which you, also, 〈◊〉 taken for your last Refuge: That the Scripture, indeed, teacheth what are the Notes of the Church. And I have, verily, reason, to thank both you, and him for it: If (as I presume of you) so he, also, had either willingly, or ingenuouslie yielded it. And, though you had forgotten this piece of your Armor, yet I was presently to have put you in mind there-of; for the clear advantage I have in it, to conclude, aga •… nst your 〈◊〉 all this point of our Dispueation. I am sure, that 〈◊〉 •… o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 •… Scho •… Man, will not (against Na •… re, •… nd all Schools) affirm of GOD, the most perfect Doctor▪ Th •… He 〈◊〉 , ( Obseuru •… p •… r obscurius ) that which is obscure, by anything which is more obscure. For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus: that is, of things which are, by nature, more notore▪ than are those things, which they are brought to notify. Thus, then, I conclude, upon your own Position: That which cleareth anything, must it self be more clear▪ But the Scripture cleareth, which are the Notes of the Church. There-fore, as the Notes, where-by the Church is known, must be more clear, than the Church, which is known by them: So, the Scripture, which teacheth those Notes, must be more clear than both. The Scripture, which is the Voice of the LORD of the House, and Great Shepherd of the Sheep, truly taught, and reverentlie received, is the only, sure, and evident Ensign of the House, and Flock. And, who is it that knoweth not this▪ That the Company is all-ways discerned by the Colours, and not the Colours by the Company? Now, consider, ( Philomathes ) whether your men's Objections, Of Scriptures obscurity, do fall, and in what uprightness they are propounded: And, whether your Questioner be sincerely set, to find that which he seemeth to seek for: or, rather, fraudfullie, to divert the Simple, from the only Light, which leadeth to it?

And, some of your own Wryters, convinced by clear Truth, are forced to confess, what the more impudent sort so much oppugn.

Andreas Fricius, thus speaketh:

Agayne, the same Author,

So as ( Philomathes ) if you will not believe us, yet your own men may tell you, Whether your Poet hath wandered him-self, and would draw others, with him, in Darkness.

He will have us, to seek after the Church, as Children, at Chacke-blind-man, groape after their Fellowes. For, first, he would pick out our Eyes, or syle us from seeing: and, then, forsooth, set us a-searching. But they who do evil, hate the Light: and the Church of Rome, had rather choose, That this Debate were never decided, than that the clear convincing Mark were brought, where-by they might be found out, who they are.

Your Sonnets ( Philadelphus ) are very sarcasticke: but where-by (if our man's Questions be not better answered, than by such cutting Checks) the Scorn, in ende, will turn to be your own.

Do you well ( Eriphilus ) to be angry? is only your man privileged to be a Poët? and is he so ( haeres ex asse ) universal Heyre to all the Muses, as that we have no part, nor portion, in them? Et nos quoque la •… rum momordimus. But, let us see which of us shall fall to pack up the Scorn: and having already cleared, what is the only sure Note of the Church, let us now more nearlie tread your man's traces, in these his metricke Marks, and try what weight they carry. First, ( Philomathes ) read the Inscriptions of his Sections, for up-taking his whole Drift. Then will we (God willing) examine each of them severallie, and shortly.

These are the capital words of all his Sections, 1. Catholic, 2. Continuance, 3. Visible, 4. Unity, 5. Holy, 6. Heretics.

His whole Ryme (as I remember) •… unneth on two main points: the one, to prove, that the Church of Rome, is the true Church of CHRIST: the other, to show, that our Churches are heretical. The first, he would conclude thus:

If you can clearly loose me that K •… ot, ( Eubulus ) you may, perhaps, induce me▪ to take more of your counsel. But, I suspect, you are once snared: for, of the proposition, none can make question: the assumption will bear out it self; and so, I hope, the Conclusion shall stand steadfast.

And, if I shall clear the proposition, to be so vain, and Sophisticall, as, though the propounder were here present, to plead for it, yet I would, GOD willing, breed him such Business, to mayntayn it, as should run him quite out of all his ryming humor. And, if I show his Assumption also to be evidently false, what will you make ( Eriphilus ) of your man's miserable Conclusion? The vanity, & sophistical deceit of his Proposition, I will best discover, as I shall answer to each of these his Markes severallie; according as he bringeth them in order, so by an Induction, to strengthen his false Assumption. And yet, even thus I fear, ( Eriphilus ) that you shall recall your liberal Offer, and be never a whit the more subject to my counsel. But Wisdom will be justified of her own Children. Philomathes, read on.

Then hearken what he saith of the first Mark, Catholic.

For mine acquytall, in that where-of I gave to Eriphilus, some more hope, than, I think, he either did conceive, or would be willing, I should make good: and to show the vain sophistry of the Proposition of your man's main Argument, so far as concerneth this his first Mark, of Universality, till I come like-ways upon the rest. I say, ( Philomathes ) that Universality can be no proper Mark of the Church: yea, that it cannot be any Mark at all. And, that, therefore, your man's main Proposition is, in this point, vain, and sophistical.

Indeed, Sir, b •… this your Assertion, you make me hope so little, that you shall make your word good, as I am assuredly persuaded, that you are worthy to be burned, for a most detestable Heretic: who dare, so peartlie, deny, that which, I think, never one of your Sect durst ever openly gain-say, to this hour. Will you draw me, think you, to follow your counsel, in ought, who thus denieth a special Article of our Creed; and is so audacious, as to affirm, that the Church is not Catholic?

I did suspect, ( Eriphilus ) that you would kindle at my Position: and, therefore, (for a more gentle Recept) I, even of purpose, turned my talk to Philomathes. But, I will calmlie cool your heat, if I can. I deny no Article of the Creed. I both confess, and believe, the Catholic Church. But, (that I may, yet once, make you more agast) in that, I do believe it, I, even therefore, deny Catholic, or Universality, to be a proper Mark of the Church; yea, or any Mark at all: For, Faith is the evidence of things, which are seen: but, the vniversalitie of the Church, is apprehended by Faith: therefore, the vniversalitie of the Church, is not seen. Now, if it be of things, which are not seen, but are believed, it cannot be a mark, where-by, here to discern the true Church. And, because, ( Eriphilus ) you sought for Syllogisms, I thus reason: All Marks are seen, or fall, under some Sense▪ but Universality is not seen, neither falleth under any Sense: There-fore, Universality can be no Mark. The Proposition of this Argument, as it is moste certain, so is it confessed by your Cardinal Bellarmine, in his second chapter, De notis Eccles. The Assumption, none will deny, who have any Sense: For all Schools hold this for an undoubted Principle, That no Universal, as it is Universal, is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , or falleth under Sense; because it is properly the Object of Reason. Much less, then, doeth the Object of Faith, (which transcendeth both Sense and Reason) fall under Sense▪ And, so, can never be any discerning Mark, betwixt Acclaymers.

Thus, ( Eriphilus ) except you have ought, where-by to infrindge mine Argument, your Man his main Proposition, in so far, as concerneth this his Mark of Universality, is both vain, and sophistical. Vayne, because he bringeth that for a discerning Mark, which falleth not under Sense; and, so, can be no Mark at all. Sophisticall, for that, of that which we confess, to be a true Attribute of the Church, he would conclude, a discerning Mark. But all Attributes, are not Markes. Now ( Eriphilus ) refell mine Argument, or grant me, I pray you, some respite from burning: for, without merit, you have all-ready burned too many, upon humor.

You could not away ( Eriphilus ) with my Sonnets: but, as I think, Eubulus Syllogisms are no less pricking.

But, I pray you, Eubulus, how-so-ever your Reasons are subtle, and, I cannot deny, but built upon confessed Grounds: and, how-so-ever that Catholic is an Attribute (as you call it) of the Church, & is apprehended by Faith: yet, seeing that the moste approved Fathers, in their Disputations, against the Heretics of their times, do press them sore, with the Authority of the Catholic Church, which they ordinarily oppose unto them; it would appear, that they had some reason to do so: and, that even Universality is, in some respect, a Mark of the true Church. Neither see I, howe you can disapprooue our Men's Argument, against you, brought from this Note, except you will condemn those Famous, and Auncient Fathers also, as having vaynlie, and sophisticallie, reasoned for the Truth.

To clear you ( Philomathes ) of all doubt herein, and, to free our selves, from any, either conscience of our own guiltiness, where-fore we would reject this Reason; or, of any unreverend Opinion, of those Fathers, who, as you truly affirm, in some Cases, and Respectes, did use it; the equivocation of this word [ Catholic ] must be opened up, where-by your Doctors, willingly, illude, and where-by your simple ones are, vnwittinglie, deceived. For the Catholic Church, is of the Fathers so called, either properly, and absolutely, or improperlie, and but in some special Respect, and Relation. Absolutelie, and most properly, the Catholic Church, is the whole number, of what-so-ever time or place, who have been, are, or shall be united unto CHRIST, their Head, and live in Him, by His Spirit; whether here, on Earth, fighting; or hence, in Heaven, triumphing. Absolutelie, and less properly, the Catholic Church, is the whole militant company here on Earth, of what-so-ever Kinred, Tongue, or Nation, under one, and the same common Ensign, of Christian Profession; whether Hypocrites, or true Professors; whether pure, or corrupt, Worshippers; whether Orthodox, or Heretical; as even Bellarmine argueth, Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In any of which Cases, she is believed, and (in her Universality ) falleth not under Sense. Improperlie, again, and in opposite Relation, the Church is called CATHOLICKE, for two Respects: The one, In opposite Relation to the Church of the Jews, which was limited within the compass of one People, and of one Region: the Christian Church, no more so confined, but spread, indifferently, over all, is called the CATHOLICKE CHURCH. Neither thus, because that either all-ways all Peoples Vniversallie, or moste parte of Men, embrace the Gospel: but, because the Entrie is opened, and offered, indifferently, unto all. The other Respect, was the opposite Relation, to heretical Companies, separating them-selves, by Error, from the common Body of the Church, & Truth maintained there-in. And in this last Respect, it is, that all-most the Fathers cōmonlie speak of it; calling the Cōmunitie of the Visible Church, retaining Truth, (in relation to particular heretical Companies) the CATHOLICKE CHURCH. And, in this Sense, opposing, ordinarily, to arrogant men, the Authority, Multitude, Consent, Succession, &c. of the Catholic Church, as you have alleged, Philomathes. But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning, two things are carefully to be marked, whereby the Fathers shall be found both pertinentlie, and prudentlie, to have used this Argument; & where by, your men now, shall be seen evidently, and impudentlie, to abuse it. The first, is that state and condition of the Church, wherein this Argument hath place, according as it was when the Fathers used it. The second, is, what weight, or moment, the Fathers placed in it. The state of the Church, then, was in common, pure, holding Truth, and by the force thereof, purging, or expelling all in-bred, or accressing evils, or Heresies. So, as then, though by an improper Speach, yet the Communalitie of the Church, keeping Truth, in relation to a few Declyners, might not impertinentlie be called the Catholic Church, and her authority, might well have been opposed unto them. But, who, in a plain contrary state, and condition of the Church, when Error obtaineth in common, and Truth is afflicted, and borne down; yet, without consideration of the altered State and Condition, would still use the same reason, from Multitude, and what-so-ever, or how-so-ever an obtaining State; he were a ridiculous Sophister, confounding diverse, and distinct times, and cases. To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus, (where-in evil was not tolerated) to the state of the Church in Smirna, (where-in Heretics waxed proud, and despised the abject state of true Professors) it were sophistical: but much more sophistical, to reason from the state in Ephesus, to the state in Pergamos; when the true Church dwelt, even where Satan's Throne was; known to GOD, though hid from the wordly sort. To reason from the Woman clothed with the Sun, treading the Moon, and crowned with twelve Stars; to the same Woman, lurking in the Wilderness, it concludeth not: for, as, in the first Case, the Fathers had reason, and did wisely, to convince by all Advantages; so, while the Case is clearly altered, (according as by Scripture was fore-told) and Antichrist hath obtained a Throne, even in the Temple; when the Evil, or Gangrene, in the body, and having even over-gone the Body, in common, will contend against the healthsome remnant; then are we both to leave improper Speaches, and, wisely, to distinguish, deceitfullie-confounded Tymes, and Cases: and properly to plead, That the Gangrene in the Body, and even affecting, and over-going the Body, in common, yet is but an Adherent, or accressing Evil, in, but not of, the Body: and, That the healthsome remnant, retaining the Lyfe of the Head, and, by virtue there-of, resisting the over-going Gangrene, is the true Catholic Church.

And, this altered Condition, of Tyme, and of the Church, in time, which maketh the Argument, some-time, pertinentlie, used, to be now ridiculous: besides, that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-told it, the FATHERS did see the working on of it, and, we have, aboundantlie often, proved, and still offer, to prove it. It is clear, also, by that other Poynt, which I propounded, to be observed, in this reasoning of the FATHERS: namely, What Weyght, or Moment, they placed in that same Argument. Where-in, they even profess, That they used it not, as an infallible demonstrative Mark, but as a Motiue: which, being joined with clear TRVETH, was worthy to be regarded: but, which, either without TRVETH, or against TRVETH, should carry no Credite.

This is evident, by Augustine, using this same Argument, against Faustus Manichaeus, and opposing the Authority of the Catholic Church, Multitude, Antiquity, Succession, &c. to his bare bragging of the TRVETH. Which TRVETH, notwith-standing, (saith that Father) if you can show, so clearly, as it cannot be gain-said, it is to be praeferred to all these things, where-by I am holden within the Catholic Church. If the name of the Catholic Church, were, in this place, properly to be taken; then should Augustine's supposed Case, be ridiculous. For Truth can never be found any-where else, but within the Catholic Church, taken properly. Where-by it is clear, that the Catholic Church, in this, and such other places, is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church: which, having Truth, should be regarded. But to whose Authority, not the less, the clear Truth, found with never so few Holders, is to be preferred. For, We ought not to consent, no, not to Catholic Bishops, (saith the same Father) if they hold any Opinion contrary to Canonicke Scriptures. Where-by is manifest, both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned, from the Authority of the Catholic Church, and what force they placed in that Argument: and that, how-so-ever by them, and in that time, and case of a Church, it was not inconvenientlie used; yet that now, in so far different a state, still to usurp it in a like manner, were extreme impudency. This Chrysostom did both fore-see, and gave warning of it: that the altered state of the Church, behooved to bring men to a more near and proper Rule of Examination, (as in his Testimonies, above cited, is clear.) In that, how-so-ever, before that Heresy obtained place in the Church, and the abomination of desolation stood also ( in sanctis Ecclesiae locis ) in the holy places of the Church, many ways were to discern the Church: (as, while Truth held place in common, was Universality improperlie taken, Multitude, Consent, Succession, &c) yet now, after that heretical contagion hath infected the Body in common, no manner of way is to discern the true Church, (amidst the corrupted community of the Church) but only the Scriptures. You are greatly deceived, ( Philomathes ) if you esteem the Church, therefore, to be called CATHOLICKE; either because all-ways the moste parte of men shall come in to her, and embrace the Profession: or yet, That of such as come in to her, the moste parte shall all-ways hold the Truth. But, She is CATHOLICKE, because her Gates that are now casten open, to all Kinreds, Tongues, and Nations; that the righteous Nation may enter in. And, how-so-ever, that neither most part come in, neither of such as are in her, is the most part of her, or saved: yet all, vniversallie, who are saved, must both be in her, and of her. And, how-so-ever, in her, most part keep not Truth, yet no Truth is, but in her. If (as your Men are all-ready perceiving, and, there-upon, are gnawing their Tongues, for sorrow) the Truth preached by us, take▪ in short time, such success, as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dried up: and if Multitude, and Consent of Nations, shall be with us; will you, there-fore, yield us the Title of the Catholic Church? If multitude of Holders, be all-ways a sure Mark of the true Church, how saith the Scripture, That All shall follow the Beast? And you confess, That Antichrist, when he cometh, shall obtain Vniversallie. Now, if in Antichrist his usurpation, Universality shall be no Note of the Church, how see you not, That very vnjustlie you lay it all-ways against us? and, That what-so-ever Universality you can allege for your Pope, it exeemeth him not from being that Antichrist, except he clear him-self, by better Defences? Thus, I hope, I have cleared, That we neither disprove the Fathers, reasoning against Heretics, in opposing to them, the Authority of the Catholic Church: and yet, that you have not, there-fore, any, either Right in their Argument, or Ground there-upon, to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Mark of the Church. So, as your man's main Proposition, (so far as concerneth this Note of Universality ) is still sophistical, and vain. But, now, if it were even a discerning Mark, as your Men would make it, yet let us try, howe justly your Church doeth vindicate it, to her self: and let us examine your Man's main Assumption in that part.

As you have dressed his Proposition, in that part, I think all labor against his Assumption were idle: For, if CATHOLICKE can be no discerning Mark of the Church, no, not any Mark at all, (as you have, at length, and evidently, evinced) how can it be Rome's Mark?

Yet ( Philadelphus ) I will omit no-thing, where-by I may possibly induce Eriphilus, to take more of my counsel. But, in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his main Argument, where-by he appropriateth to Rome, the Title of the Catholic Church, I must protest, ( Eriphilus ) that it be no prejudice to my matter, that you do so confidently call yourselves Catholics, and your Company, the Catholic Church: else, if you will have this your usurping of that name, to carry any weight; and, that, therefore, you will have us to account so of you; I desire of you the same aequitablenesse, in our Case. That, because we both esteem, and call our selves, The Catholic Church, and Catholic Men; that, therefore, you will hold us for such. Or, if you consider, that an Argument, à dici ad esse, concludeth not; and that, there-fore, pertinentlie, the Logicians place, before their Categories, the Distinction ( 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 ) of things that are said, and of things that are. Then, let us lay aside, what either you, of yourselves, or we, of our selves, do partiallie speak, or arrogantlie arrogate; and let us try, what is true of us both.

Your Protestation is most aequitable: For, a bare Clayme, except it be instructed, can make no Title.

Then, ( Philomathes ) in that part of your Poet's Ryme, which is inscrybed, CATHOLICKE, and which you did lastly read; besides the Proposition, which I have refelled, he assumeth, That the Note of Catholic, or Universality, conveaneth properly, to the Church of Rome. Which false Assumption, he seeketh to sustain, by four Reasons; the first of which, he concludeth thus:

What Company did take in hand, and, accordingly, first performed, the publishing of the Gospel, thorough the Worlde, and converted all Nations, to the Faith; that must be the Company, to which the Title of CATHOLICKE, or VNIVERSALITIE, properly, belongeth: and that Company, is the Catholic Church.

But, the Church of Rome, only, did both under-take, and perform this. There-fore, the Church of Rome is the Catholic Church; and, to her, properly, that Note belongeth.

Now, here, some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man, to give us such, whether a definition, or description, of Catholic, as till now, none ever heard of. We esteemed, (as I have shown) that the Catholic Church had been that company of what-so-ever Tyme, Place, or Nation, which, in the communion of one, and the same Spirit, joined to their Head CHRIST, do make up the fullness of His mystical Body; whether in the Heavens, triumphing, or, as yet, here, in their course, fighting; or, in another consideration, we call the Catholic Church, all of all Kinreds, Tongues, and Nations, who under one, and the same common Ensign, of Christian Profession, give their names to CHRIST, and are in the count of His House here; whether they be only in it, or also of it: or, to speak improperlie, as, in some Cases, the Fathers do, the Catholic Church is the community of the Church, holding Truth in relation, to Declyners there-from. But your Poet, appropriating this Title, to the first Converters, hath forfaulted from this Dignity, all the Converted by them: And, thus, his Proposition, is not only false, but even ridiculous. For, how-so-ever the Converters of others, by an improper Speach, may be called Catholics; as any particular Church, holding Truth, is called a Catholic Church; or any faithful Man, a Catholic man, because they are true partes of the Catholic Church, in which only is Truth, Lyfe, and Salvation: yet, to call any particular, either person, order of persons, or company, the Catholic man, persons, or Church, it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach. His Assumption I distinguish. If he affirm, That Rome first converted all Nations to the Faith, and was the first publisher of the Gospel, it is so shameleslie false, as, I think, Satan might blush, to broach out such a Lie. How did Paul glory in the LORD, (and that before he did see Rome ) that from Arabia, to Illyricum, he had filled all with the Gospel of CHRIST; and that, most part, where CHRIST had not been named, not building on any other man's foundation? Have all the other eleven Apostles, besides Peter, forgotten, think you, their LORD's Commission; of whom, we have no certain record, that ever any did see Rome? If, converting Nations to the Faith, might appropriate to any Church, 〈6 pages missing〉

down of the same.

But, no Company offereth to GOD, a clean Sacrifice, from the rising of the Sun, to the setting of the same, but the Church of Rome.

There-fore, the Church of Rome, is only, and properly, the Catholic Church.

The Proposition, of this his Syllogism, he taketh from the Prophet Malachi. His Assumption, he proveth, strongly, for-sooth, by an undeniable Truth; That, Onelie, the Church of Rome, offereth all-where, the holy Sacrifice of the Messe. Which, he maketh no question, but that is the only clean Sacrifice, offered to GOD, all-where, from the rising, to the setting, of the Sun. And, thus, he thinketh, his Conclusion cannot fail him.

And so I think, also, ( Eubulus ) and, I hope, shall think so still, for any Aunswere you are able to make there-unto: how-so-ever you would seem, for-sooth, to make a very light account of it; and would, according to your manner, laugh-over those Arguments, which most pintch you.

Then, advert what I have to say, and think, syne, what you please. The Condition of CHRIST His Church, set down by Malachi, (whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition) I acknowledge, according to the Prophet his sense, and words; which your man ( Eriphilus ) resumeth deceitfullie. The words are these; From the •… sing of the Sun, to the going down there-of, My Name shall be great amongst the Gentiles, and, in all places, Incense shall be brought to My Name, and a clean Gift. These clear, and distinct words, either ignorantly, or fraudfullie, your man obscureth, perverteth, and involveth, to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices, or, Sacrifices for sin, and other Oblations, of Praise, or due Worship: which, both, in their diverse Types, are most distinctly put; and, in the Anagogicke Veritie, must be diverselie considered. And, this, your man doeth, to bring some Colour to his Assumption, which is impudentlie false. Neither will the Offering of your Messe, (which is neither clean, holy, nor a Sacrifice, but a most sacrilegious profanation, of an holy Sacrament, and the moste detestable Idolatry, that ever was defended for good Worship) appropriate to Rome, the Offring, all-where, of Incense, and a clean Gift, to the LORD.

Are you so shallow a Man, in Scripture, ( Eriphilus ) that you know not, how all true Christians, any-where, being made Kings, and Priests, to GOD, in CHRIST, do offer up to Him, the Sacrifices of Praise; even the Calves of the Lips? Do we not offer up our selves, an holy, living, acceptable Sacrifice; even our reasonable Service? What-so-ever works of Charity we, in the fear and love of GOD, perform; are they not Sacrifices? and, accepted in CHRIST? To do good, and to distribute, forget not; for with such Sacrifices, GOD is well pleased, saith the Apostle. Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians, by the same Apostle, called, A Sacrifice of sweet Savour, and acceptable to GOD? Your Man his whole Senses have been drowned in his Challice, when, so doltishlie, he forgot him-self, as, to leave no clean Offering in the Church, but his monstrous Messe. As for any other Sacrifice for sin, but that one, and once for all, offered, we acknowledge not: So, as your Messe may be well relegated, to sick Swyne, for whom (upon conveaned price) your Men have mumbled out a million.

Now, as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour, both in that he confoundeth diverse kinds of Sacrifices, and, also, that he acknowledgeth not, (with clear Scripture) any other clean Oblation, in the Christian Church, but the Mischiefe of the Messe: So, he illudeth, more-over, by reasoning from Sacrifice, and Oblation, figuratiuelie, and allegoricallie, spoken of▪ to Sacrifice, and Oblation, in propriety of signification: from typical speeches, concluding not allegoricallie, but properly; and, that, most ignorantly▪ & foolishly. The Prophets, fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdom, do, ordinarily, express the Condition thereof, under Legal Types, where-by it was fore-shadowed. Which is so evident, in all their manner of Dispensation, as it is marvel, if any dare pretend, to misknow it. Speaking of the Conversion of Nations, a •… d, of their Association to the Church, they prophecy, That all Nations shall come yearlie, and worship at HIERUSALEM. Which, to understand properly, it were to be a proper Ass in Divinity. For, expressing of the great measure, of Light, and Knowledge, under the Gospel, they prophecy, That all men shall see Visions, and dream Dreams: to declare, that the Worship of GOD, shall be no more tied to any one place; but that all-where, who worship Him, in Spirit, and Truth, shall be accepted. Isaia telleth of three Altars, to be erected; one in Judea, one in Assyria, and one in Egypt. And thus, to show how the worship of GOD, should be no more confined within the Jewish natiō, or precinct of Canaan, Malacbie fore-telleth, That Incense, and a clean Gift, shall be offered in all places, and, that the Name of the LORD shall be great, from the rising of the Sun, to the going-down there-of. And, howe will you, out of this, make your monstrous Messe? or, out of your Messe, make the miserable Mongers there-of, to be the Catholic Church, except, first, you make Mules of Men? Or, is there any, either Shame, or Sinceritie in disputing, when, upon typical Praedictions, Conclusions are inferred, in propriety of Signification?

You have ( Eubulus ) made this their Sacrifice so vnsavourie, that I long to be from it. I pray you, what is his fourth Reason?

Because ( Philadelphus ) the smell of the Romish Incense, I perceive, is to you some-what loathsome; for your Refreshment, you shall now have an Argument, to laugh at; if this may not move Eripbilus, to count it in vincible. Advert, then, a deadly Demonstration. David saith, in the eyghteenth Psalm, And their sound went thorough all the Earth: There-fore, the Church of Rome, is the Catholic Church. If one were set, in scorn, to play a part, to the Partie's disgrace, whom he representeth; could he have fished out, think you, a fyner Argument, than this is? David, in the nynteenth Psalm, (which some make the eyghteenth) showeth, how GOD hath, in His works, so plainly manifested Him-self, as no Nation in the world, can pretend any excuse of ignorance. Paul, in his Epistle to the Romans, for taking from obstinate Jews, all excuse, of their induration against the Gospel, because the same was so plainly, largelie, and powerfullie preached; he, to this ende, citeth, and very pertinentlie, the words of David. But, I pray you, by what Logic will it follow here-upon, that the Church of Rome, is the Catholic Church; more than the Devil, and his angels, who compass the Earth, continually, roaring, & seeking whom they may devour? or, then, the busy Emissaries of Satan, who compass Sea and Land, to make a Proselyte, and make him doublie the child of the Devil? We affirm, That the Gospel, at first, was so plainly, and plentifully, offered to the World, as, that, most justly, for the contempt there-of, and because men loved Lies, better than the Truth; therefore GOD gave men over, to strong delusion, & effectualnes of error: whereby Satan obtained a throne in the Temple, all the Earth following the Beast. And, that now again, that man of Sin, by the revived light of the Gospel, is so clearly revealed, as, who will not come out of Babylon, are willingly blinded, and worthily part-takers of her judgments. And now, ( Philomathes ) as I think, I have answered to all your Rymer's four Reasons, where-by he would conclude CATHOLICKE, to be a Mark of the Church, and proper to Rome. If you have ought to reply, speak it: other-ways, let us hear more of your Man his Music.

No: but, by your leave ( Eubulus ) my Song was first tabled. And you shall have it short: For it is in honor of the Church of Rome, which is daily shortening.

What-so-ever might be replied to you, ( Eubulus ) yet I will not insist farther, at this time. But, seeing that Philadelphus is so poeticallie disposed, as he must vent his Verses; I will sharpen him, with a new Subject, where-on to meditate his next Sonnet. Thus, then, our Man speaketh, of CONTINVANCE.

You must not expect of me, ( Philomathes ) that I will, so▪ vnprofitablie, spend time, as to sift out, narrowly, all your Man's gross Over-sightes; because I eye but the main point: and, there-fore, you have not to think, that either I spy no •… , or do approve, what in him I pass over, vntaxed. For, as, here, he vaynlie, and ydlie, payneth him-self, to prove a point, which no man will deny, ( That the Church continueth all-ways: ) So, for proving here-of, to allege, the particular Promise, made to Peter, That his Faith should not fail, he is ridiculous, and sophistical. For, in that place, the LORD speaketh of Peter 's particular Faith, that Spiritual Virtue, begotten in him, by the holy Ghost, which was his Victory, where-by he over-came, in that his temptation: and not the Doctrine of Faith, as your Man hath, now, twice, dotingly, expounded. As if the Falling, or Standing, of the Church, did hang on any one particular Man his Apostasy, or Stabilitie. He, no less audaciouslie, fathereth a Lie, on the Apostle Paul, (That, all-ways, there shall remain Apostles in the Church: ) For, except he escape, by equivocation, it is most certain, that, in the most proper, and strict Signification of Apostleship, as it was an extraordinary Function, but for a time, till the Foundation of the Church should be laid, and the Canon closed: So, how-so-ever others, succeeding in Pastoral, and ordinary Offices of the Church, and teaching the same Doctrine, and so keeping the Foundation laid by them, are, truly, the Successors of the Apostles: Yet, that any did succeed to the Apostleship, it is extreamlie false. For, the Church being constituted, extraordinary Offices ceased; as did the extraordinary Gift, and manner of Calling, which maketh the Office. And, I even muze, if your own Men, will not judge, this your Poet, worthy of punishment, that will have Apostles continuing, all-ways, plurallie, in the Church: seeing you all do account this Dignity singular to the Pope; who only, now, in all the World, takes to him-self, the Monopolie of Apostolical Benedictiō.

It is the main point, where-in we would be resolved. For these other things, I am not to make Argument. Can you, all-ways, deny, but that CONTINVANCE, is a proper Mark of the Church?

It is no more a proper Note of the Church, than Colour and Stature, are proper Notes of a Man. And, (that I forget not my promise, as I come on them, one by one, to show, the vain sophistry of your man's main Proposition, in all) I affirm, That, as Universality was foolishly brought by him, for a discerning Mark, betwixt Acclaimers; so, also, is this, of Continuance: not, that I deny it, to be an attribute, and common accident: for, certaynlie, since her first beginning, the Church both hath continued, and shall continue all-ways. But, do you hold this good Logic, in your man, ( Philomathes ) of common accidents, to conclude, that they are proper Notes, and discerning Marks? you know, that Proprium, is but one of diverse kynds of Predication: and, that what-so-ever, is proper to anything, it conveaneth (as Schools speak) Omni soli, & semper: that is, To all, to only, and all-ways. But, Continuance, could not be said of the Church, Semper: that is, at all times. For, at the first moment of Adam and Evaes Creation, (who were the Church) Continuance, of them then, had been no true Predication, when as yet, no time had run. Besides, what-so-ever is a proper Note, it is so converted with the subject, where-of it is the property; as that, if Continuance were a proper Note of the Church; then, as none could be the Church, but which had continued, and did still continue: so, what-so-ever did continue, behooved to be the Church, which you see, were extreamlie absurd. For, Heaven, and Earth, continue to this day: Satan, continueth a Liar, and a Murderer, from the beginning; and his Children continue Liars, and Murderers, like their Father: and, the evil Seed continueth, even amidst the good Seed, in the Lord's own Fielde, till the last day of separation. So, as if with any probable show, your man would had CONTINVANCE, counted a concluding Mark of the Church, he should have added there-to, this Modification, That, what company hath continued in the true Faith, and Worship of CHRIST, that is His true Church. But, then, if he should assume, that the Church of Rome, hath only continued in the true Faith, and lawful Worship of CHRIST, we will deny it, as extreamlie false: and, tell him, that he continueth impudent, to assume the Question. And, thus, you may perceive, ( Philomathes ) that your man's most lykelie Marks, yet are no proper Markes, till they be modified, by that one, and only demonstrative, and truly discretiue Mark, which at first I laid down unto you.

But, ( Eubulus ) you must not escape us at so cheap a rate. For, even upon CONTINVANCE, a common accident, as you call it, I will establish our man's conclusion, for the Church of Rome. You will confess, that the Church of CHRIST, hath continued all-ways, since her first beginning, and must all-ways continue, till her LORD'S return: so, as she can never fall away, absolutely, from His Light, and Lyfe.

This, I heartily yield you.

You will yield me this also, That no company can be said, to continue in the Truth, Light, and Lyfe of CHRIST, which continueth not, in any profession of His Name, or worship there-of, at all. For, to use your own comparison, all-be-it Colour, and Stature will not conclude, of the thing coloured, and quantified, that it is a man: yet this will be a sure Position, That what hath neither Colour, nor Stature at all, it can be no man.

This, I yield you also: but where-upon, you may see, that your conclusion, shall be but negative, to exclude upon defects, & not affirmative, to argue upon demonstrative Markes.

Then, advert, how I will, even affirmatiuelie, conclude, for the Church of Rome:

You find, perhaps, Eubulus, that our Syllogisms, are pointed also.

I will presently prove, what either Poynt, or Edge, it hath; and, how piercing so-ever you presume it to be, ( Eriphilus ) yet make it to be found as phlegmaticke, as you are choleric. Of your Syllogism then, Philomathes, (where-by you conclude nothing to Rome's advantage, if any other Churches may be shown, to have continued in any Profession, or Worship of the Name of CHRIST) I grant the Proposition to be true: for, no question, but that only with-in the compass of the visible Church, and under the common Ensign of Profession, the true Church, and all true Christians, are, and have continued, all-ways. And, as where-ever the Ensign is, and the Name of CHRIST professed, how corruptedlie so-ever it be in common, yet, there, possibly, yea, probablie, (I durst say assuredly) are some true, though weak, Christians: So, where that Name is not at all named, nor any worship there-of, there no Church can be said to be at all. Your Assumption is both false, and deceitful. And, to show it evidently to be such, if I should but oppose to you, the Ethiopian, and Indian Churches, which have continued, and not only without any Communion, but all-most without any knowledge of the Church of Rome; what could you find, to say, against these Instances? but, I will be so indulgent, unto you, as not to urge them on you: I will, other-ways, sufficiently, so discover the deceit of your Assumption, as the falsehood of it may be clearly seen: for it containeth a double fallacy; one in the name of the Church of Rome; the other, in that which is affirmed of it. For, if by the Church of Rome, be understood, the whole body of the visible Church, on which, for some Ages, by craft and ambitious usurpation of Antichrist, in-throned in the Temple, the Character, Name, or Number of the Beast, were imposed in common: how-so-ever thousands, ever were in that community, who, rejecting, and detesting them, retained the Name of the Lamb His Father, and Character there-of; and were of the 144000 sealed ones: and, many, who, in simplicity, received the Name, or Number of the Beast, yet never received his Character. Then, sophisticallie, and deceitfullie, you reason from the accressing Sore, and Gangrene in the body, (and of which Sore, the name is but improperlie and tyrannicallie imposed on the body) to the body affected there-with. When we plead against the Church of Rome, we plead not against that body absolutely, where-in that evil was, and that so far obtaining, as it named the body after it self, (while the Church of GOD dwelt, even where Satan's Throne was) but we plead against the evil, in, but not of, the body: not against all, who were called the Roman Church, or Papists, or were counted of that number: But against Papalitie, or Antichristianism. Not against all, who were, thorough common Contagion, perhaps, lightly touched, or taynted with the Evil: But against the Characterized company, Antichrist his mancipated Slaues, and in whom the pestilent Evil, had eaten up all true life, and sense. So, as in this Case, for arrogating any point, to the Mischiefe which we oppugn, to oppose unto us, the common body, even heavilie affected, and, in common, over-gone with it; it is no less absurd sophistication, than if one should confound the Dropsy, Iaundies, or Gangrene in the Body, with the Body in which they are, and draw Conclusions from the one, to the other. If all the Body, were the Evil, then were there no Body. But, even a sick Body, is yet a Body: and, how-so-ever so affected, in common, and, no part appeareth to be fully free, but, that the Sore possesseth all: yet, so long as the Body liveth, and moveth, performing natural Functions; it evinceth, that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease; so as the Body, all-be-it heavilie affected, yet dieth not: yea, getting the true Medicine, and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit, will expel the Evil, and notiue Humour, and recover Health; as Experience hath proved clearly, in many Reformed, both Churches and Persons.

Thus, ( Philomathes ) if in your Assumption, you mean, by the Church, that whole Body, absolutely, on which that Name was fraudfullie, and tyrannicallie, imposed: then you conclude not your Poynt, but deceive, by Aequivocation, ( A dici, ad esse ) from So called, and, wronglie called, to So is; confounding that known Distinction of Logic, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , where-of I spake before. And if, by the Church of Rome, you signify the Papalitie, and Evil in the Body, which we impugn, (as you must, if you evince ought against us) then is your Assumption clearly false. For, both before that Evil invaded the Body, the Body was: and, even at the time of the waxing Sore, yet still continued, brooking some healthsome remnant of Spiritual Sense, and Lyfe: and, now, at last, by the Medicinal Virtue of the Word, and Spirit, is recovering Health, and destroying the, formerly, destroying Disease.

This will be yet more clear, by the discovery of that other Fallacie, where-by, in this Case, of the Churches continuance, your Men partly illude, and partly are illuded. For, because the Church continueth all-ways, they esteem, and conclude falselie, That, there-fore, she continueth still in one, and the same Condition of Light, and Lyfe: that is, That Truth, and lawful Worship, hath all-ways held place, and borne sway there-in, in common: so as what-soever Company, or Doctrine, most, in common, obtained, and carried Vogue, that was the true Church of CHRIST, and the true and Orthodox Faith. And this is most absurdly false, and evinced to be so, not only by evident Experience, but also by clear Scripture. For, all 〈◊〉 Church, & Truth in her, hath continued always; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she been subject to many Wrestlings, Victories, Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses: She is some-time darkened, (saith Augustine) and is, as it were, over-clowded, with multitude of Offences: some-time, by tranquility of time, quiet & free she showeth her self: some-time is covered, and troubled with the waves of tribulations, and temptations. We confess, that the Church hath continued always: but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth, I sit, being a Queen, & shall see no mourning: but, oft-times, afflicted, & tossed with tempest, & having no comforter. She hath still continued, but, as a Woman, (even at first, while she was yet clothed with the Sun) traveling, and crying out, with pain: next, persecuted cruelly: thirdly, fleeing to the Wilderness: fourthly, lurking, and fed there, while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him, by false pretence of the Lamb's horns. She hath continued always: yet so, as sometime (while the Earth, Sea, Fountayns & Rivers, Stars, Sun & Moon, are either, first, in a great part, burnt, corrupted, made bitter, eclypsed, or totally, at last, darkened) she consisted of a few secret sealed ones, exempted, in GOD'S merciful care, frō a common evil. Sometime, again, she is of a number innumerable, with Palms in hand. Her state hath been, sometime, as the temple closed, in relation to all the holy city, & court of the temple, trodden under foot of the Heathen: her Pastors, some-time, few, secret, ministering within the Temple, in sorrow, for prevailing Evils; yet long without blood-shed, as being vnperceived. Sometime, again, vpō application of the true measuring Reede, (for discerning the true Church, within the compass of so importable an impiety) cruelly murdered, & barbarouslie entreated, evē with applause of the World. Sometime, again, in greater vigor, terrifying their enemies; &, in open view, flying thorough the midst of Heavē, with the ever-lasting Gospel; & separated from incurable Contagion, to come up hither. Sometime, as now at last, coming so down on the earth, as it is all lightened, with the glorious shining of the Gospel. We know, that the true Church hath continued all-ways: Yet so, as, in a common Apostasy, where-by Antichrist obtained a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD; and all the Earth followed the Beast, receiving his Character, Name, or Number, (while to the Beast his wondering Sectators, and charactized Slaues, it appeared impossible, that any such Company could be) she consisted of 144000 secret, sealed, and chaste ones, following the Lamb; and having a powerful, and plentiful Dispensation of Grace, and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps; all-be-it none could either hear, or learn, their Song, but them-selves.

Finallie, we acknowledge, That the Gates of Hell never prevailed, or shall prevail, against the Church: but yet, they have often assailed her, strangelie. And thus, in what-so-ever sense, your Assumption, Philomathes, (That the Church of Rome, hath only, of all Companies in the Worlde, for many Ages, retained the name of CHRIST, and any Worship there-of ) is either deceitfullie sophistical, or evidently false. And so your Conclusion cometh to naught.

This pointed Syllogism of yours, ( Eriphilus) E •… bulus hath so blunted, as it will scarce serve to prick a Pudding. And if neither CONTINVANCE can be a proper Mark of the Church; and being modified, so as it may best seem to be one, yet is falselie assumed of Rome; I see no better Conclusion, but that we let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes, and that we seek the BRYDE, where She may be better found out.

Well, ( Eubulus ) giving you, that the Church continued not all-ways in one, and the same Condition, of obtaining Truth; and, that, possibly, Error might have prevailed in the whole Church, in common, but not vniversallie, in each within it: yet, except some visible, and seen Company, (how small so-ever) may be produced by you, who have professed your Faith, & Doctrine; to whom you may, with any show of Reason, acclayme the Title of the true Body; & so, lay over, on us, the name, and blame, of the Sore: what is all your reasoning, but a poor, and very improbable Paralogisme, A posse, ad esse, as Schools speak? And the point of our Syllogism, is not yet so far blunted, as Philadelphus would make it.

To evince the possibility, it sufficiently meeteth all your Men: who, against our Demonstrations, of GOD His Truth with us, and the Apostasy of the Church of Rome, oppose, all-ways, and only, to us, the impossibility, that any such Case should befall the Church. So as mine Argument is not, as you speak, A posse, ad esse: but, of that where-of we evidently evince the Esse, and you deny the Posse, to clear the certayntie of both. But I see whither you tend: for you come, now, to under-prop your declining CONTINVANCE, with as weak a Warrand, of VISIBILITIE; which is your Man's next Mark, & which I have, all-ready, so marred, with that which hath been said to CONTINVANCE, as I shall have but small a do to hogh the Proppe; that, so, both may tumble down, in the Dust, to-gether.

I pray you, ( Philomathes ) go forward, to the Mark of VISIBILITIE: which, in the Continuance of the Church, cometh most fitly to be considered. And, this Mark shall best clear our Church, and make Eubulus to be seen, in all his Subtilties: For, so shall a Church be found to have continued, if she hath continued visible: And you will perceive Eubulus so pintched, with this Note, as he will vanish away, in his Invisibilitie; and will give us a Church. continuing, for-sooth, a thousand years, by miere imagination.

If I did so far distrust our Cause, ( Eriphilus ) as that I would, there-fore, seek to escape by Subtilties, why would I have suffered myself, (and that vnnecessarilie) to be drawn a-side, by you, to so idle a Disputation, about that, where-of it is shame, for any resolved Christian, once to make question? For, how-so-ever, that, for Philomathes better satisfaction, I was, and am, contented to deal thus; yet, what a senseless thing, in effect, is this, That the Truth of GOD, (so clearly revealed, and, which, by any, having Spiritual Eyes, is as easily discerned from Error, as Light is from Darkness) for Man's vain humor, should be put to this form, and Rule of Trial; That, except it may be cleared, where, and with whom, it hath visibly continued, we will prowdlie, and rebelliouslie, reject it? Which is no less, yea, much more, both ridiculous, and unjust; than, if the Sun, long lapped up, under Clowdes, and, there-after, breaking forth, brightlie, should, therefore, by Dolts, be denied, to be the true Sun; and, that it were but some Counterfey •… , and never-before-seen Comet: Because, for-sooth, their weak Eyes had not continually perceived, all the particular progress of it. Whereas, in any true Sparkle of a Godly, and Christian Disposition, and right Spiritual Wisdom, we should thus reason: This is, evidently, the Truth of GOD; and, there-fore, how-so-ever it hath not appeared, to continue, or keep place; yet, I am certain, that it hath never, all-to-gether, failed, from amongst GOD His Children. Andt, his is Haeresie. There-fore, howe great place so-ever it hath had, or, how long so-ever it hath borne sway, even in the Holy City, and Court of the Temple, yet it is clearly to be casten out.

And, in the beginning of our Dispute, I laid such Groundes, of the Evidencie, and Sufficiencie of Holy Scripture, for full Resolution, in these Poyntes; as I might, well enough, have excused myself, from diverting, thus vaynlie, with you, to these Questions, either of Continuance, or Visibility; if I were in any such peril, by your Praerogatiues in them, as you praesume. But, this cleareth you, ( Eriphilus ) that you are, now, come to your strongest piece: for any fear where-of, I will not yet so far vanish, as you wiene: But, even dismasking your Man, of this vain, and so-much-vaunted-of Visard, of Visibility, I will, GOD willing, show him, in discerning of GOD His Church, to be visibly blind: and, will not give you a Church, by imagination, but, continuing, all-ways, really, and visible, though not to Mules.

Verilie, you make me though not to vanish, yet to wonder at a little; That you confess, the true Church, to have been all-ways visible: and, will make me wonder, yet more, if you perform what you promise. For, I ever imagined, that all your Defense, in this Poynt, had been, to claim unto the Invisibilitie of the Church. But, you have sharpened mine Appetite, to hear you of this Matter. Thus, then, our Poet speaketh of this Mark.

This is your Man's third Mark, and which you have brought, to bear up your decaying CONTINVANCE. But, I say, ( Philomathes ) that no more can VISIBILITIE be a proper Mark of the Church, than could CONTINVANCE; for, it is a common accident, of all visible creatures: So as, all-be-it I should yield as much of Visibility, as I confessed of Continuance, yet would it but serve for a Negative Conclusion, against others; but for no Affirmative Demonstration of your own Church: And, thus, still, thorough all, your Man's main Proposition proveth vain.

I must confess, that Visibility, no more than Continuance, is a proper Note of the Church: For you have clearly evinced it. Yet, as, out of our Man, I framed an Argument, before, upon Continuance; so, now, I will, from Visibility, (even a common Accident, as you call it) conclude, not only negatiuelie, against your Church; but; affirmatiuelie, of the Church of Rome. And, I reason thus:

Such an affirmative Conclusion, jump, as was your former, upon CONTINVANCE; by a deceiving consequence, upon the presumed Defectes of others. Which, as it beguiled you, in your CONTINVANCE, so will it fail you here also, for it is the very same. And, as I so over-threw your Argument, from CONTINVANCE, that you were fain to flee to Visibility, for succor: so will I make, now, the weakness of this your Reason, from Visibility, not only visible, but even palpable also. Where-in, yet, I will not waste time, to show, how ridiculouslie, vainlie, and impertinentlie, he laboreth, to prove the Proposition, of this his Syllogism. That hath been oftener showed, than he hath syllables in his Proper Ballad: neither will I insist, to expose his folly, in bringing bare personal Succession, (and not that which all orthodox Fathers call the principal, and proper succession) and but of one particular Church, (as if it had failed in all other Churches) for stablishing of his Assumption. What is true Succession, and who are true Successors, and how vnjustlie either are appropriated, or attributed to Rome, I have cleared else-where. I come to the point it self: whereof, all-be-it I have already written at such length, as I might be well excused, to refer you wholly there-to, (my Books passing so commonly in the Country) yet, because in this Mark, as in the top of your strength, you glory most, I will, GOD willing, in few words, unfold your Error. This then, ( Philomathes ) is the Major, or Proposition of your Argument: The Church of CHRIST is always visible.

And you have, all-ready, as I think, granted it: neither see I, (though you would recall your word) what, goodly, you can say against it.

I am to recall nothing of that I have said: but yet I must clear, in what sense this your Position is to be admitted, for pulling your men from their ordinary Starting-Hole of Aequivocation. For, how-so-ever, I will still grant, that, in some respects, the Church of CHRIST is always visible: yet, I will deny your Proposition, if, from a restrict Case, you draw it to an absolute Assertion, because, in some consideration, the Church is invisible. And, to clear this: In respect of the matter of the Church, (which is Men) and, in respect of the common outward form, (in the public & common Ensign of Profession, & worship) we confess, the Church to be, and, all-ways to have been, visible. But, in respect of her inward form, & the purpose of Grace, (where-on chiefly the Truth of the Church hangeth) she is invisible. And, the LORD knoweth, who are His. Schools do call the one, Ration̄ Signi; &, the other, Ration̄ Beneplaciti. And, seeing it is an Article of our Faith, to believe the Church; and, that Faith, is of things, which are not seen; it followeth, of necessity, that in some (and that a most principal) respect, the Church is invisible. For, to be believed, & to be seen, cannot consist. Yea, this is so evident a truth, as Bellarmine is forced to confess it: these are his words, Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri, & aliquid credi; videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia; sed quod ill coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus, sed credimus: that is, I say, better that in the Church something is seen, and something is believed; for we see that Company which is the Church; but, that that Company is the self true Church of CHRIST, we see not, but believe it. The one consideration, discerneth Christians, true or false, from open Idolaters, and Heathen men: the other, distinguisheth true Christians, from outward professors only, & commō worshippers. Now, as these distinct Cōsiderations should be sophisticallie confounded; so you see, ( Philomathes ) that your Propositiō, taken absolutely, were deceitfullie false.

Even so much as you grant, will serve me for concluding of mine Argument; so, as I need not impugn your Distinction, or disadvow ought that Bellarmine saith▪ I plead, but that the Church is ever visible, Ration Signi, (as you speak) that is, that the true, & Orthodox external worship, and worshippers, have been all-ways visible. For, it must be some external Sign, falling under Sense, and outward perception, which must be a Mark of the Church, as you have evinced against us, eve •… by our Bellarmine's suffrage: and, there-upon, did bereave us of our first Mark of CATHOLICKE, or VNIVERSALITIE.

As you even modifie your Proposition, ( Philomathes ) yet it implieth a deceit, which you bewray, by your own Gloss: That is, (say you) that the true, and Orthodox Worship, and Worshippers, have all-ways been visible. Which, if you do mean in this Sense, that, all-ways, by the common Ensign of public Profession, ( Ration Signi ) it might ever have been discerned, where the true Worship, and true Worshippers were, and might have been seen; I will heartily yield you it. But, if he •… e-by, (as your Men plead) you would signify, that, all-ways, and in common, lawful, and true Worship, and, lawful, and true Worshippers, have so far obtained, & borne sway, as whatso-ever, in common, held place in the Church, that was to be esteemed Truth: then, I still deny, even your modified Proposition. And, it is still one, and the same Fallacie, wherein, before, in the Mark of Continuance, you did fall; and which, at length, I elided there. In my Distinction, Signi, & Beneplaciti, I told you, even now, That by the visible Ensign, Christians, in common, good, or bad; or Orthodox, or other ways, were discerned from Foreigners, and Heathen men. Now, here-upon, to infer, That, by the common, visible Ensign, (in the community of Christians) true, & Orthodox Worshippers; or, true, & Orthodox Worship, are discerned, from false, and adulterous, both under the same common Ensign; you may see, how chyldish Sophistry it were. If Satan had but one way, of assailing the Church, namely, by open, and avowed Hostilitie: and, if none, but lawful, and Orthodox Worshippers, were under it; then, had you reason, to make the common Ensign, of Visible Profession, a sure Mark, not only of Christians, in common, but even of true Christians all-so; at least, of lawful outward worship. But, seeing, that, both, by Scripture, and many fold Experience, we know, that, by no mean, he hath, so effectually prevailed, as, by transforming him-self, in an Angel of Light; &, under pretence of the common Ensign, to adulterate all lawful worship; of necessity, for discerning the true Church, or approved lawful Worship, from the Abomination of Desolation, (both of them ( in sanctis Ecclesiae locis ) under one, and the same Ensign, of Christian Profession) we must advert, not only whose Horns are pretended; but also, whose Mouth speaketh. So as, still, you may see, that even Visibility must be reduced unto, and examined, by our only demonstrative Mark, which, in the beginning of our Disputation, I laid down.

I love so greatly to be resolved, especially in this so main, and maynlie controverted a Poynt, as I will come farther with you, than, I know, our Church will allow me: and, give you this, That even Error, might possibly have taken place, in the whole Church, in common: (which Case I did, not obscurelie, put, at the beginning of our Conference, about this Mark) yet, seeing we accord in this, That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church: and, seeing that you yield me this, all-so, That the same is all-ways visible, in respect of the matter there-of, [MEN] and external form of Profession: (which is, of necessity, a certain truth; in so far, as not only with the Heart we believe to Righteousness, but also, with the Mouth, we confess unto Salvation. ) How-so-ever, it either hath, or might have fallen, that most part were misscarried, and that Adulterous worship, and Worshippers, have had chief Rowme, and been most conspicuous, and visible: Yet, how can you deny, but some number, at least, behooved to be, all-ways, of lawful Worshippers, and holding the Orthodox Faith: who, both in their persons, and in their Worship, were visible, even in time of greatest Corruption?

Your upright Dealing, and desire of Resolution, ( Philomathes ) maketh me to let that freely with you, which, with others, I would, perhaps, have longer stuck unto. For bringing you, then, to your Wishes, I grant your Proposition, in your last declared Sense, to be true. But then, I say, of your Assumption, ( No Church hath remained visible, but the Church of Rome ) that it hath the same fallacy in it, which I opened, and refelled at length, in the same Assumption of Continuance. For, if by the Church of Rome, you mean the common body, of the whole visible Church, albeit even affected, with the over-going Evil; & on which, for more effectual deceit, tyrannicallie the name of the beast sitting there-in, was by him imposed: then is your Assumption sophisticallie deceitful, in reasoning, A dici, (from, So called) ad esse, (to, So is ) and, concluding, from the Body absolutely, to the Gangrene, or Sore in it, or, contrary-ways, from the Evil in the Body, to the Body affected there-with, in common, but not vniversallie; as before I showed. And, upon your Assumption, thus understood, your Conclusion will not follow. But, if by the Church of Rome, your Assumption meaneth the Evil, and Sore, against which only it is that we plead, and not against the common Body, where-of we are; then, is it manifestly false: and, so, your Conclusion faileth.

But, except you clear to me, how, in that Body, besides that which you do call the over-going Sore, there were some visible partes, brooking Health, and that visibly; I must still think, that your subtle Distinction, of the Body, from the Sore, is but vain. For, I pray you, for many Ages, who were seen, or known, to have any differing Profession? or, to have resisted, and condemned, the Church of Rome?

Now, consider, ( Philomathes ) how aequitablie you require that of me. For, first, How-so-ever it may be easily seen, and shown, in a Body, but contracting a Disease, while, as yet, all Members are not much infected, or affected there-with: or, again, in a Body, convalescing, while either all the Body is all-most freed from the Sickness, or, at least, the strongest, and noblest partes, have expelled the Disease; all-be-it, perhaps, the D •… eggs there-of rest, a space, in the extremities of Handes, or Feet, and keep them swollen. Yet, ( Philomathes ) it shall be hardly shown in a Body, in the prevailing height, and main Fit of the Sickness, when it hath so far obtained, as all parts of that Body, in common, are, either infected, or, at least, heavilie affected, yea, and even much afflicted there-by; so, as no part can be separablie shown, brooking, a-part, perfect health, without either Infection, or Affection. And, yet, even in such a Case, a Skilfull man, beholding, and considering, will perceive, evidently, that it is a living, all-be-it a sick Body: yea, that such Strength, of natural Vigour, yet remaineth there-in, all-be-it no-where vnaffected, which, both, resisteth the wasting Disease, even in the very Paroxisme, and, in ende, by prevailing vital power, & help of right Medicine, expelleth it. For, as in such a Body, if no remnant were of vital Vigour, all Sense, and Motion, should be quite extinguished: So, in a Body, totallie affected, & afflicted, all-be-it not vniversallie infected, it were a monstrous, & unnatural thing, in such a Case, to see any part of the Body, a-part, no-thing affected; all-be-it there will, even in that Body, be parts, not infected: where-in, as in a citadle life, & health residing, they frō thence, both fight against the over-going Evil, &, at last, become victorious over it. Of the Church of Sardis, it it said, That, having a name, that she lived, yet she was dead; &, notwith-standing, is exhorted, to strengthen the parts which remained, and were ready to die. And, even in this miserable Case, the LORD witnesseth, That even there, He had a few names, which had not defiled their garments: &, these yet still lived, in the cōmuniō of that same Church, & were not known by any visible separation, frō the rest of that Body. For, separation is neither requisite, nor lawful, till all hope of Cure be past. And, thus, neither were the faithful ones under Antichristian tyranny, till, after long toleration, & much heaviness, for the waxing Evil, at last, laboring to have cured it, they were cruelly murdered, &, lay, barbarously, unburied, &, insolentlie mocked, in the streets of Babel, which neither would, nor could be cured. And, then, leaving her, as a burnt Mountayne, being, by divine warrand, commanded, to Come up hither, they did separate themselves, not frō the Church, but frō the Contagions, and incurable Evil, in the Church, but not of it. For, we would fain have cured Babel, but she would not. Next, ( Philomathes ) how-so-ever lightened men, each in their own times, even in most desperate state, & condition, both might, and did see, some pure remnant, which were well known to the godly, then; yet, how absurdlie is any account of them required of succeeding Ages, to whose knowledge (through repressing and suppressing tyranny, of such as disposed of all Records at their pleasure) nothing did come, but what obtained commonly in that time? In despite of all which, notwith-standing, so much testimony hath remained, as may satisfy, and certify, any upright mind, That still Truth was in the Church, & in all Ages had its own Assertours; all-be-it not all, in a like degree of contestation, even in most corrupt times; as the Gatalogues of them, drawn up by our Men, for meeting this your Objection, make manifest, if you please with an impartial Heart to read them.

More-over, here, again, ( Philomathes ) you stumble, at a double Deceit, in the word VISIBLE: in that, not only, you conclude, That, what-so-ever is visible, is, all-so, seen: but, there-with, all-so, upon no open resisting, you infer no being, most absurdlie. All men know, that from Tolleration, to Approbation, you can never stablish a Conclusion. Manie will, and, for many Respects, tolerate that, which they are so far from approoving, as they will utterly abhor it. And, (to keep our former similitude) how many have you seen, subject to great, and dangerous Diseases, and having their Bodies repleat with vicious Humours; who, yet, while they could retain any reasonable condition of Health, would not adventure, to move the Body; by expelling, with perilous Medicaments, the nociue Humours? The Church of Pergamos, tolerated what she neither approved, nor communicated there-with: but lurked, even where Satan's Throne was; keeping the Name of GOD, who knew her Dwelling, and Case. Physicians come not to Burning, and Cutting, till the Evil be, not only desperate, but, all-so, that the Lyfe of the Body is in danger there-by. Your Romish Evil, ( Philomathes ) did grow on slowlie, and by Degrees; and came not to the top of Impiety at once: so, as the Degrees of Contestation, in difference of time, and diverse degrees of a waxing Evil, behooved to be much diverse. And, neither could the Case admit, or was it the LORD His will, that Contestation should be, in the highest degree, till the Impiety came to the highest: though, even in the Growth, and subtle Success, of that Mystery of Iniquity, many, both mislyked it, and mourned for it: keeping, them-selves, the Name of GOD, and uttering, in their own times, not obscure Signs of their Miscontentment.

The other Poynt, where-in you are deceived, and which, in the first room, I propounded, is; That upon Visibility, you conclude Sight. But, many things, and many times, will be visible, which yet are not all-ways seen. Doeth not Experience teach us, howe hardly one Man will be found out amongst a thousand, evē by such as do both know him, and search after him? how long, then, may he lurk unseen, of such as neither know him, nor think of him? And, in the midst of so great Repressing and Suppressing Tyrannie, what marvel, though they were, in common, unseen, as not only being few, but forced also to lurk, and by GOD His Gracious Providence, covered from their Enemies fury? This beguyleth you, ( Philomathes ) that you account, no worship either to be at all, or to be visible, but which is separatelie openly, and avowedlie practiced, in the common view of all men. Which, manifold Experience, and clear Scripture, teacheth us, to be an absurd Conception: and, which Case, neither that course of time, and of the Evil, by GOD His permission, waxing, and obtaining in it, could suffer: and, which, in the wise purpose of GOD His admirable Dispensation, was neither needful, nor expedient.

Did I not divine, rightly, ( Eubulus ) to what pintches this Poynt would drive you? When all is done, what do you, but vanish away, in your Invisibilitie; giving us a Church, by miere imagination? A Church, invisiblie visible, and, visibly invisible. Are you not ashamed, so to dally? Our Church was all-ways visible, (say you) but it was not seen: and, I pray you, what a visible Church, is that, which none doeth see?

Ajax, transported with fury, ( Eriphilus ) did slay many sakelesse Sow, instead of Ulysses. And, you are, now, in great chafe, with your own Shadow. I did not say, neither ever minded I to say, That none did see our Church: but, I, justly, taxed a false Conclusion, led from VISIBILITIE, to common, and continual seeing. For, many things are visible, which yet neither are, in common, nor all-ways seen. And, this maketh not our Church invisiblie visible; but it showeth him, who will deny it, to be visibly blind. I acknowledge, That, how-so-ever Antichristian Darkness, hath over-gone the whole Church, in common, yet that ever still, with-in the compass of that Vsurpation, under the common Ensign, were numbers of true, and lawful Worshippers, and, a true, and lawful Worship: which were, all-ways, visible, by the Ensign, and common Body: as white is visible, in the rucke and heap, how-so-ever covered with the over-going Chaff, or Strae, till the Fanner come, and purge the Floore. And, to come yet more near, ( Eriphilus ) I say, That they were not only visible in this sort, but, all-so, in their persons, and practice of pure Worship: and, that they were seen, all-so, all-be-it not, in common, perceived. For, many things, will be both visible, and seen, all-so, which yet will escape perception, even of the Seers. Yea, which you will yet, perhaps, more admire, I affirm, That they were not only visible, and seen, but perceived, all-so; though not in common, nor of the blinded wordly sort, (which was the LORD His Providence, for their preservation;) but only of their sealed Brethren, who were brought from the Earth; and, being spiritual Virgines, only got Eyes, to see, and perceive; and, Ears, to hear, and understand, that sweet, and hightuned Song, which the Beast's stupefied Sectators could neither hear, nor learn. Now, then, though I affirm, and that justly, That from Visibility, one may not conclude of seeing: neither, from seeing, may one conclude of perceiving: neither, from both seeing, and perceiving, of seeing, and perceiving, in common: yet I deny not, but freely, and truly affirm, That our Church was all-ways visible, seen, and perceived, but not of such as had no Eyes. Do you not know, that many things may be visible; which yet, through the blindness of beholders, are not seen? yea, and many things are seen, which even the seers, (through mis-regard, or over-vayling mist, or GOD, in justice, benumbing their Senses) yet, will not take up, nor perceive: which, yet, the illuminated, will both see, and perceive clearly.

To reason, then, from Visibility, to common sight; or, from Visibility, and common sight, to conclude common Perception; or, to conclude of what is not seen, or perceived, in common, That it is not seen, or perceived, at all; yea, is not visible; yea, is not at all; it is such a dead kind of Argumentation, ( Eriphilus ) as, where-in all your choler will never kindle the life of good Logic. Howe many Papists, and howe much Popish worship, is, and that visible, within this YLAND, which, yet, is not seen, in common, or perceived? Yea, ( Eriphilus ) though I be visible, and you do, all-so, both see, and hear me; yet, you neither perceive, nor understand me. How many things will be lying, even hard by us; yea, before our Eyes; which, yet, will we not, a long time, perceive, though, sedulouslie, seeking after them? I ask you, ( Eriphilus ) was not Lot; were not his Guestes, the Angels, (in their condition, at that time;) were not his Wyfe, and Daughters; was not his House, and the Gates there-of, visible?

Doeth it agree with your pretended Gravity, to ask of me, such scornful Questions?

That you may see, howe I do, very pertinentlie, and seriously, ask this of you; I tell you, That, howe visible so-ever they were, yet they escaped the perception, of all SODOME, even greedilie groaping after them. The Sun was visible, yea, & clearly, both seen, and shining, in GOSHEN, when, not-with-standing, in all EGYPT, was palpable Darkness. And, what wonder, then, though that great City, which, spiritually, is called Sodom, and Egypt, did not see, or perceive, what, yet, was visible, seen, and shining, in the midst of her? And, what marvel, that they are still so blind; as, not to perceive, howe these former things, in GOD His purpose, were Stampes of the like; but, greater Cases to fall out there-after? Was either ELISHA, or SAMARIA, or the Region, thorough which the ARAMITES were led, there-fore, either invisible, or not seen of them; because GOD syled their Eyes; that seeing, yet they should not perceive? But, ( Eriphilus ) to be yet more plain, and to come even close to your hand. As, before, I cleared, how the Church continued all-ways, all-be-it not all-ways in one, and the same Condition: so, I tell you, now, That the Church was ever, and in all Ages, visible; how-so-ever not all-ways in a-like measure of Health, and Spiritual Vigour: which is your Men's gross Fallacie. A Man, even brought to bed with sickness, is no les visible, than when he walked abroad, in perfect health, albeit neither seen of so many, nor so healthful as before. Your men are ridiculous, in asking incessantlie, where our Church was, before Luther: whereas the Church now, the Church in Luther 's days, & the Church before his days, even upward, to the infancy thereof, is, & was, still one, & the same Church, & always visible: but, first, in health, & healthsom vigor: next, by degrees, contracting sickness: at length, heavilie infected, affected, & afflicted, with that disease, whereof you, Eriphilus, are dangerously sick, & Philomathes hath somewhat tasted also: & now is convalescing, through the Medicine of the Word & Spirit: and alike in all these cases, was ever, & is, visible, & seen also, according to her distinct conditions, in diverse times. Neither have we another Church, or a new Church, as your Doctors would persuade the Simple: but the same Church; & a renewed Church. Neither have we forsaken the Unity, & Cōmunion of the Church, within which, & whereof we still are: but we have forsaken Babel, in the Church which hath •… firmed her self against all Cure. For, howsoever the sick Body, was the Church, yet the Sickness oppugning, and wasting the life there-of, was never the Church: and, albe-it in it, yet never of it. Now, ( Eriphilus ) you see, I am far from dallying, and, am come to more plain Dealing, than, perhaps, well pleaseth you.

Verilie ( Eubulus ) I cannot deny, but your Reasons are sound, and solid; and, your Distinctions are subtle. But, it seemeth exceeding strange, that any such Case, and so long a time, should have befallen the Church of GOD: which maketh me yet to suspect, that your Arguments, are more out of subtlety of Logic, than according to the Veritie of the Matter: and, that, how-soever they evince, indeed, clearly, a Possibilitie of such a Case: yet, that any such Case, in truth, was, they will not conclude: And, it were a rash Conception, so to think of holy Church. So that, according as▪ I said before, you seem still to reason, but A posse, ad esse, from Possibilitie, to Real existence, which will not necessarily follow.

I confess, ( Philomathes ) that the Case is, and will seem, strange, to any not acquainted with the clear course of Scripture, and the LORD His wise, and wonderful Dispensation, clearly fore-told there-in, and fallen out accordingly. For, the works of GOD are wonderful, and, He is marvelous, in the Case of His Saints. As, great is the Mystery of Godliness; so, all-so, is that of Iniquity. And, without true illumination, to know the Scriptures of GOD, none ever shall attain, either to the healthsome Knowledge of the one, or happy Discoverie of the other. But, ( Philomathes ) seeing you confess, That I have clearly evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasy in the Church, as where-by Error may take place, in common; and, that, yet, not-with-standing, GOD may, very well, preserve Truth, and true, and lawful Worship, and Worshippers, all-be-it, in common, vnperceived: and, considering the many, and capital Poyntes, where-with so many famous Churches, now, so long time, charge your Church of Rome: I ask you, If in this Case, you think her well defended, with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring? Or, if she hath not great reason, both to suspect, what possibly might befall her; and, carefully, to descend, to an exact Trial, whether it hath so befallen her, or not?

Certaynlie, I think the weight of so great Poyntes, as are in Controversy, to-gether with the Challenge of so many Churches, require no less, than that Matters be condignlie tried, and examined: and, that a proud Denyall, will not justify any, in such a Case.

Well, ( Philomathes ) and, in so clearly evinced a Possibilitie of Apostasy, as requireth a condign Trial; whether, think you, is it the surest way, to put the stable Truth of GOD, revealed in His Word, to this inaequitable, and unsure Condition; as either to approve it self, by the Multitude, and Continuance of Holders, who, yet, may err, or, then, to be rejected? Or, rather, to lay, for a sure Ground; That, seeing it is Truth, there-fore, it ought to subdue all Myndes, and take place against all Praejudices, of Praescription, Praerogatiue of Holders, Tymes, Places, or Persons? Because it dependeth, not on the unstable Humours of Men, who are but, naturally, Liars, and, may be deceived. But, is, in it self, so clear; as, being admitted, purelie, to plead for it self, it will, sufficiently, approve, and, justify, it self, against all, howe strongly so-ever grounded Error; and all, either Quality, or Multitude of Mayntayners, or Praescription of Tyme. In short, ( Philomathes ) whether ought the Truth of GOD, to be subject to Men? or, ought all Men, to be subject unto it? And, which of these two Reasons, conclude strongest? and, on which, may a Christian Soul, best rest? This hath long had place, and Approbation, with most Men: and, there-fore, is the Truth. Or, this is GOD His Truth▪ there-fore, it ought to have place, even against all prejudice what-so-ever. And, how-so-ever it hath appeared, to have been perished, from amongst Men; yet, certaynlie, it hath remained all-ways.

Verilie, I cannot deny, but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie, to subject the Truth of GOD, to Man: all-be-it, again, in the Question, what is that Truth, I think, the judgment of the Church, and what hath long been held of Her, should be much regarded; and not rejected, without great, and very clear Reasons.

That I yield you, ( Philomathes: ) and truly, if, in the present Poynt of our Disputation, we had or could bring no more, but, (as you alleged) the Possibilitie of the case: where-of no Evidence might be produced, that accordingly it had fallen out. And, if my Reasons, and Distinctions, in this Matter, were but from quirkes of Logic, and not according to clearly-fore-told, and, accordingly, fallen-out Events, you had the less reason to regard them. But, besides the Possibilitie, which I have evinced; & besides the undoubted Truth it self, so clearly delivered in Scripture, as may sufficiently certify a Soul, that, accordingly, the Case hath fallen. The holy Ghost (for our farther Resolution) hath also, (according to both the Possibilitie, and the event, in effect, agreeable) so clearly fore-told the whole particular Case, and Course, as, I may boldly say, to whom it appeareth strange, They are yet great Strangers, in the written Word of GOD: and, in such great measure of Light, as now, in GOD'S singular Mercy, is revealed, who disdain to learn, what even Artificers (in such open and large offer of Grace) are holden to know, they are worthily blinded, in GOD'S just indignation. We are not only fore-warned, by the LORD Him-self, in the days of His flesh; and, agreeablie, there-after, by the Apostle Paul, of such a common Apostasy in the Church, as where-by Antichrist should obtain a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD: but, also, most amplie, particularly, and delightfullie, under most goodly, and significant Types, in the Book of the Revelation, the whole course of Story, is plainly, and at length expressed. So, as ( Philomathes ) I have not alleged what probablie might be▪ but what the holy GHOST hath plainly, and particulie, fore-told, and, fore-warned us, should come to pass: and, which, accordingly, we see clearly performed. Yo •… Men are deceived, because they know neither the •… criptures, nor the Power of GOD. And, I am so far from seeking subtle Evasions, in this Argument, as, I, uprightly, protest, in the Presence of HIM, Whome I serve, in the GOSPELL of HIS Son; That, (laying aside the very self clear, and infallible Groundes of Truth, delivered in Scripture, where-upon against all, either Probabilities▪ or Praesumptions, our Faith may, and must, solidlie rely) there is no Reason, in the Worlde, so effectual, to assure my Soul, of the Veritie of our Religion, and, that we are of CHRIST His true Church; as are the very chief things, which our Adversaries do object against us. Neither any so pregnant a Motiue, to persuade me, (laying aside the consideration of their plain heretical Opinions) that they are the Antichristian Body; as even those things, where-in they do, chiefly, and, most insolentlie, glory. Which, to clear unto you, at such length, and in such evidence, as I well could, and, the Matter, all-so, requireth; it were a longer Speach, than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth us. But, if you list to take pains, you may read, what I have, at more length, written hereof, in my DISPVTATIONS, FOR OUR CALLINGES, and, in my COMMENTARIE, on the REVELATION. Which, with the little that I have now said, when you have more deeply considered; then, if you remain yet vnsatisfyed, how-so-ever I neither love, to contend with the Humourous, nor to multiplye Babling, upon Blocks; yet, I will, at your Desyre, not stick, to take more pains, upon your Ingenuitie.

I will, GOD willing, read those Books, where-unto you have sharpened mine Appetite, by that which you have now spoken: having, there-by, so filled mine Heart, with great Doubts, of such things, as I accounted inexpugnable points: that, I cannot choose, but to insist, till I be settled, as it shall please GOD to inform me, in that which is the right Way of His Fear.

How invisible so-ever we be, ( Eriphilus ) and how short so-ever you be of sight, yet, I hope, you may, now, perceive your own foil, in the chief Flowre of your Forces: so, as Eubulus hath not (as you presumed) evanished, in Invisibilitie, but, hath made all your, long, and vaynlie vaunted of, Visibility, to vanish, in a vain Smoke.

Whether we have any such Foyle, as you allege; or, you such Victory, as you presume, ( Philadelphus ) you are all-ways ready to sing your own Triumph. But, now, all-be-it we have, indeed, all-ready passed thorough these Markes, where-in we esteem our selves strongest; and, that Eubulus hath (I must confess) answered, more than I expected: yet, I pray you, let us hear what he hath to say against the rest. The next Mark, is VNITIE: and thus our Poet speaketh of it.

That which, as I think, I have evinced, of all your Man's former Marks, I affirm, of this also; That, it is, impertinentlie, yea, falselie, produced, for a proper Mark of the Church: in so far, as it is a common condition of many things, yea, all things that are, ( hoc ipso quod sunt, anum sunt ) even in that they are, they are, in that same, one; as all Schools acknowledge. The Devils are united; for, Satan's Kingdom is not divided against it self: And, Briggands, banded to rob, and sheede Blood, are one. So, as still, you see, that your Man's main Proposition, of his main Argument, is vain, and sophistical. Neither will VNITIE, in all points, ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST, than of the Antichristian body, except VNITIE, in all points, be modified: and, of an indefinite VNITIE, it be defined, an VNITIE, in all points, of Truth. To which, only demonstrative Mark, (as I have shown of all the former;) so, this of VNITIE, must be reduced also, if there-on, you would build any sure Conclusion. For, of the Antichristian Company, the holy Ghost, hath in plain Tearmes, fore-told, These have one mind, and shall give their power, and authority, to the Beast: and a little after, For GOD hath put in their Hearts, to fulfill his will; and to do, with one consent, for to give their Kingdoms to the Beast, until the words of GOD be fulfilled. And, this is, indeed, that VNITIE, where-of your Men, so much glory, even a Conspiracie in Error, and no true VNITIE in Truth; as their manifold, and shameless Shiftings, (in a clear evidence, of a self-accusing-guiltiness) from subduing their doctrine, to just examination, by Scripture, the sole Rule of Veritie, make more than manifest. Now, Satan never yet envied VNITIE, in Error: or, ZEALE, in Superstition.

Well: to let this go with you, of VNITIE, which you have, indeed, evinced, of the former: that it is no proper Mark: yet, as I said, and you also admitted of the others: so, you cannot deny, of VNITIE, but that it is a true Attribute of the Church: and, that, therefore, our Man's Argument, for the Church of Rome, concludeth very clearly, thus:

I will not quarrel the form of your Syllogism, for that your Assumption, hath the nature of a negative Position. I say, your Proposition is sophistical; and, your Assumption, shameleslie, false: where-by, your Conclusion cometh to naught. As for the Proposition, though you should modifie your indefinite, all Poynts, to definitlie, all Poynts, of Truth: yet hath it in-folded a deep Deceit. For, if it be understood, of All Poyntes of Truth, so absolutely, as, who keep not Unity, in all, and every point there-of, be excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church: then is your Proposition perniciouslie false. And, your Man would but, fraudule •… tlie, put forth a bloody Table of Proscription, where-by, cruelly, to forfault many good Christian, and Church, from the Communion of the Body, even by a deceitful confounding, of what-so-ever points of Truth, and, what-so-ever degrees of Division, or Dissention: which must be wisely, and carefully, distinguished. For, there be many points of Truth, wherein diversity of judgment, breaketh not the Unity of the Church: Yea, and many Divisions, and Dissensions, which, yet, divyde not the dissenting Members, one from another: or, if one from another, yet, neither of them from the Head, or common Body; from which those, only, may be said, absolutely, to fall, which hold not the Head, or, subvert, directly, and with pertinancy, the Foundation. For, many, in weakness, will hold Opinions, which, in-deed, do even choppe against the Foundation, by clear, and necessary Consequence; but not immediately, or directly. So, as, if you should challenge the Holders, of that which their opinion doth import, they will not only deny it, but evē abhor the sequel of that which they maintain, but not with that mind. And, it were great want of Charity, to judge a-like of these, and of the others. We are all, here, still, compassed with Infirmitie; knowing, but in part, and, prophesying, but in part. In which Case, the Apostle, charitablie, advyseth, That, Who are perfect, they be so minded: and, if any be other-ways minded, that the LORD will reveal it unto them: but that, in the time, in that where-to we are come, we ought to proceed, by one Rule, mynding the same things. I confess, & many hundreds do regrate it, with Tears, That the Infirmitie of Men's minds, too far in self-wiening, wedded to their own Sense, and, not humbly receiving Information, or, charitablie comporting, with weak Brethren, (according to the Apostle's Rule) both hath bred, and still breedeth, too many bitter, and unnecessary Distractions, and scandalous Schisms; about such things, as, if Humility, and Love, had over-ruled Men's Affections, neither were, nor are, of such Moment, where-fore the Unity of Men, holding still one, and the same Head, and, keeping one, and the same Foundation, should be so lightly broken, or, the Peace of GOD His House troubled: But, the weakness, and, not duelie-mortified Humours of Men, maketh not the Truth of GOD to fail. That Dissensions, and Divisions are, it declareth Men, to be, yet, in that part, carnal: but, it doeth not separate them, from the common Body, so long as they hold one, and the same LORD, one Faith, one Hope, one Baptism, and are united in one, and the same Spirit: no more, than did this Defect, in the Church of Corinth; which, all-be-it, that, here-fore, the Apostle did rebuke, as carnal, in that; yet, he still did entitle, with the Name of CHRIST His Church. And, though, by any such Schism, either a Person, or Company, should be divided, from particular, either Church or Churches; it will not, therefore, follow, (& I think, none dare avouch it) that, there-fore, they are separated from the Head, or common Body: so, to make them in a-like Case, with heretical Subverters of the Foundation, and, Deserters of the Head. We see, by Experience, in natural Bodies, That, by inflicted Woundes, such Gaps will be made, as the sides of the Wound, either from other, will start a-sunder: and, so, one part of the Body, by a separating Wound, will be severed from another part: which, both, will yet remain still united in the common Body, and, be part-takers of one, and the same common Sense, Motion, and Lyfe, from one, and the same Head, and Heart. Thus ( Philomathes ) your Poet's Proposition, absolutely affirmed, is false; even when he hath modified his indefinite, All Poynts, to all Poynts, of Truth.

That no Unity argueth any Company, to be CHRIST'S Church, but Unity in Truth, I must needs confess it: and, that every diversity of opinion, or every degree of Distraction, doth not separate the dissenters, or distracted, mutually from other; or, at least, either of them from the common Body, and Head, I cannot deny, but that you have evinced it clearly. Yet, so many, and so material, are the Divisions amongst your Churches, and your Quarrels are debated so bitterlie: and, again, so great is the Harmonie, and Concord, of the Romish Church, as, I think, giveth just Reason, to suspect of you, that you are not, nor cannot, be united, as you spake, in one, and the same LORD, Faith, Hope, Baptism, and Spirit: and, that the Church of Rome, hath only, and evidently, this Honor.

Now, ( Philomathes ) you put the Lyfe of your Syllogism, in the Hands of your Assumption, to stand, or fall, there-with. And, denying us any such Unity, as may argue a Church of CHRIST, you have appropriated all to Rome, how justly, we will, even now, examine: and, first, your Objection against us, is, many ways sophistical. First, if such be accounted ours, who are none of us, the imputation is unjust. We acknowledge, and do lament it, that there is too great Division, and variety of Sects, calling themselves Christians, in the world: but, what do most part of them, more, or so much concern us, as they concern your Church of Rome? out of whose dongue, as noisome Flees, they are bred: and by Satan's craft, coming to fly on, upon our Churches, (that by the mixture of their Poison, they may bring the Truth in disgrace) are only, by us diligently resisted, and their Errors clearly convinced: while, in the mean time, your Romish Church, (whose brood they are) is careless of anything, but to suppress the Truth; and, calumniouslie, to lay over, on us, the Stinke of their own Excrements. As for such, whom we will not disadvow, in common, (how-so-ever we will not justify the Ambition, Giddinesse, and bitterness of some particular Men, who, as fire-brands, disturb, humurouslie, and vnnecessarilie, the Peace of the Church) I affirm, that no such material Poynts are in differ betwixt us, in common, wherefore, we, both, may not, and ought not, embrace others, mutually, as Brethren. Which, that we do not, it is our weakness, and the malicious work, of but a few evil-inspired Instruments; seeking more their own Estimation, than GOD his Glory, and good of His Church. And, that no such Separation is betwixt us, but that, how-so-ever, by a cruel Wound, of merciless Hands, we are separated, one of us, from another; yet we are still joined in the common Head, and in the common Body, each of us to other. So, as your Man's odious enumeration of Protestants, Puritans, Calvinists, Zwinglians, and, if you list, to add to them, Lutherans, also, is but a calumnious traducing, of such, as, most part, are not separated either from other: or at least, how-so-ever, by some weakness, they be in that sort distracted, yet, are but one Body, joined in one, and the same LORD, Faith, Hope, Baptism; and informed, all of them, by one and the same Spirit, all-be-it not all, in a-like measure. Amongst whom, there is no just breach of Communion: how-so-ever, that, by a Wound, of some cruel and dispitefull Men, those you do call Lutherians, are, vnnecessarilie, separated from the rest: but, none of us, from the common Head, and Body, in which we are still united, and will be yet more & more nearlie: our Concord, in GOD, and His Truth, growing, as your Unity, in Evil, shall be broken off: the will of GOD being fulfilled, in all the work of Antichrist's deceit, justly upon the Worlde, for contempt of His Truth. And, thus ( Philomathes ) your Assumption, where-by you deny us any such Unity, as, of necessity, is required in the Church of CHRIST, for keeping, justly, that Account, is false. And, no less false is it, all-so, in that, what you would rob us of, you do appropriate to Rome: which cannot be, truly, praised for any Unity, except that which before I mentioned, out of the seaventeenth Chapter of the REVELATION, which is the only Unity proper unto her, and, accordingly, there fore-told of her. For, other-ways, she hath fallen away, foulie, both from the Head, and the Foundation: and, can never be said, to have keeped Unity with the true Body; other-ways, than the accressing Sore, or Apostume in the Body, but not of it, may be said, to be one with the Body. And, your Man bewrayeth, very well, howe poorelie provyded he is, of any sure probation of his Unity: when, for all Argument, where-by to evince an Union, in one LORD, one Faith, one Hope, one Baptism, and one true, and sanctifying Spirit, he is not ashamed, impudentlie, to take that, which is the very main point in question. Whither, I pray you, did his Poëticke Furie transport him; when, without blushing, to sustain his Assumption, on which all the life of his Cause depended, he brought this only, and goodly, Argument?

That Church, only, keepeth Unity, in all points, which cleaveth to the Pope.

But, the Church of Rome, only, cleaveth to the Pope.

There-fore, the Church of Rome, only, keepeth Unity, in all points.

The Proposition of this his Demonstration, he proveth, by this; That the Keys of the Kingdom of Heavē, were given to Peter. But the Pope is Peter 's Successor. Ergo, do you require me, ( Philomathes ) to make any answer to these your Man his Raveries? Or, if he had been set, of very purpose, to play the Praevaricator in the Cause, which he pleadeth; could he more ridiculouslie, I will not say, have reasoned, but raved: We neither deny, nor envy your Church, her Unity with the Pope; all-be-it, in Christian Compassion, we pity it. But, we deny, your Mischiefe to have any Union, either with the Head, Foundation, or Body, except as a Sore in it, but not of it. And, to clear yet farther, the falsehood of your Man's main Assumption, of Unity, (That the Church of Rome, keepeth Unity in all points ) and how vain he is, in vaunting there-of: if your Poet had as carefully picked out the Partialities of his Romish Church, (even in this their damnable and cursed conspiracy) as he hath, with a perverse mind, and poisonable Eye, pryed in our Distractions: What great matter, of Insulting, hath he, or any of his profession, against our Churches, for any Division, betwixt us, and these whom they do call LVTHERIANS? If he were as powerful a Peace-maker, as he proveth an impertinent Pratler, he might have found, at Home, to work upon, not only great Dissensions, but even as bitter, and material, Digladiations, as any is amongst us. When all our Controversy, amongst our selves, about the manner of Presence, and participation of CHRIST, in the sacred Supper, is duelie weighed; what shall be found, there-in, comparable to the manifold Debates, amongst your Schoolmen, about the manner of their prodigious TRANSSVBSTANTIATION? whence, as from an horrible Hydra, so many monstruouslie diverse Heads have sprung up, in their Schools, as never will be reconciled, till Fire, from Heaven, burn up all that intoxicated Body. When your Poët shall put at one, the Scotists, and Thomists; the Franciscans, and Domicians; the School-men, and the Canonists; their other Clergy, and the Iesuists; when Black-well, and Bellarmine, shall accord, upon that main Poynt, of the Pope's Supremacy: (which, to believe, and that both, In temporalibus, & spiritualibus is, de necessitate salutis: that is, Necessarie to Salvation, saith the one party) then might he, with the more credit, praesume, to tax our Distractions: Loripedem rectus derideat, Aethiopem albus. Now, then, your Man's Proposition, of his main Syllogism, of VNITIE, being sophistical, and, his Assumption, clearly false; he will hardly, I trow, upon such Antecedents, conclude well, that the Church of Rome, is the only true Church of CHRIST.

You have admitted the Church of Rome an VNITIE; but, such, as where-in they have neither any matter of Glorying; and are, but even scarce, well united in that same sacrilegious Society.

As Eubulus in doing his best, to take from our Poët, the praise of a deep Divine; so, I perceive, ( Philadelphus ) that you mind not to permit him the Monopolie of the MVSES. But, now, it resteth, to speak of the Note of HOLINESSE: and, I much muze, ( Eubulus ) if, as of all the former, so you will affirm of this all-so, That it is no proper Mark. For, I am sure, that to nothing under Heaven, doeth the property of HOLINESSE conveane, but to the Church of CHRIST only. And, again, (according to the Law you alleged of Propers) that whatso-ever Men are holy, they must be of the Church of CHRIST: for, Holiness becometh His House.

The Prophet ELISHA, being consulted by great Personages, and upon great Poynts, called for a Minstrel. And, mine Advyse were, ( Eubulus ) before you answer to this Mark of HOLINESSE, that, even for refreshing of our Spirites, a little, 〈◊〉 hear their Man's Melodie, upon that point.

As your Myndes are mistuned, you may, perhaps, find yourselves, nor greatly cheered there-with. For, how-so-ever, Eubulus, like a slippery Eele, by subtleties of Distinctions, hath slidden thorough all our preceeding Marks; yet, as Philomathes, hath rightly said, I hope, HOLYNESSE, is such a sure one, as you cannot deny; except, you would once, and in this one Poynt, prove true Men, even to profess yourselves, a profane Company.

What-so-ever a property we shall find HOLINESSE to be, yet, ( Eriphilus ) I take bitter Passion, to be no proper Poynt of it. And, therefore, what-so-ever your Man's Music, might work in us; yet, shall it not, incontinentlie, come praesentlie in place, for mitigating, of your own Cholericke Motions, by some greater Sympathie: which, perhaps, it shall find in you, than it can waken, up, in our (as you call them) mistuned Myndes. Therefore, Philomathes, bring out your Cure quickly, for succouring of your Companion.

In-deed, the consideration of HOLINESSE, would require, a calm Constitution. And these are our Man's Verses there-of.

I am, against both your Wish, and Expectation, ( Eriphilus ) so far cheered with your man's Poësie; as, if it may not trouble your cheare, I would ask, even chearfullie, of you; why he hath passed by the Apostolic Creed, (which, with some more credit, he might have cited; and, where-in, he might have found, all-so, the property of HOLYNESSE ) to allege the Nicene? for, if he thought, that this word [ Apostolic ] would have marred his Metre, by making his Lyne a foot longer: yet, the shortness of his immediately, subsequent verses, might have recompensed that slip: neither hath he been, in the rest of this Ryme, so squimmish, as to stand too praeciselie, on footes; or, half footes.

We will let this pass, ( Philadelphus: ) for as I protested before, I am not to insist, in taxing all his absurdities, no, not in the Matter, much less in his Metre, which is less material, I come to speak of this Mark of Holiness: and, before I enter to examine the Man's Logic, I will yield this much, That, this once, he hath fallen on a true Property of the Church of CHRIST: yea, and I will grant thus much more, That all-be-it all properties be not Marks, (because more is required for being a proper Mark, than only to be a proper Attribute) yet, that Holiness is even a proper Mark of CHRIST His Church; but, where-in the Church of Rome, hath as little, and less advantage, than in any of the former. And, for clearing of this, ( Philomathes ) I must, first, put out your Man, from the Lurking-den of Aequivocation, where-in your Doctors delight to lie; and, thence, to shoot at the Innocent, in secret. For, if, by Holiness, be meaned, that sanctified Disposition of the Soul, and Affections, by the Spirit of Regeneration, wrought in all true Christians; in that Sense, it can be no Mark, because GOD, only, knoweth the Hearts of Men. And, we concluded, before, with consent of Bellarmine, That all Markes must, of necessity, fall under Sense. And, again, if by Holynesse, be meaned, that which is seen, and exposed to perception, in Men's outward carriage, according to the Law of Righteousness, in Manners, and common conversation; neither, thus, can it be a proper Mark of CHRIST HIS true Church. For, that, by the restraining Virtue of GOD HIS Spirit of Administration, even Heathen men, and Infideles, will appear, in all moral Virtues, matcheable to Christians; except, that we know, that what-so-ever is not of Faith, is sin. Was not Paul unrebukable, as concerning the Law; while, yet, he was not only no Believer, but even a cruel Persecuter all-so?

How-so-ever outward Righteousness may not be a sure Mark of Men, considered absolutely; for that fair carriage, which by the restraining Virtue of the Spirit of Administration, will be even in Heathen men: yet, (as you did, in short words, make answer to yourself) that what is not of Faith, is sin; and, that, there-fore, no Heathen conversation, how approved so-ever, can be counted for true Holynesse: So, amongst Professors of Christianity, I think, that Holynesse in life and manners, must be a most sure discerning Mark, whereby to know the true Church, as which must, in them, be praesumed, to proceed of Faith. And we are a-searching of such Notes, as in the community of Christians, all acclayming the Title of the Church, may discern the Vpright, from the Bastard, in that same kind. So, as your Objection, of Heathen carriage, in this case, is clearly the same Sophism, which, you may remember, that, before, you taxed in our Men.

Do you not know, ( Philomathes ) that, even amongst Professoures, not only will Hypocrites, in all these Outwardes, appear to go far beyond, even the moste sincere, and single-hearted Christians; but, even superstitious, and corrupt worshippers, yet in a blind zeal, will seem to keep more precisely, the way of HOLINESSE, and RIGHTEOVSNESSE, than who have more, and truer Light?

And if no more were to lead you, to know, that HOLINESSE, in this kind, can be no Mark, this, alone, might tell it you; That your own Men, all-ways, in their Disputes with us, about the true Church, Doctrine, and Worship, do reject, (and that justly) all Arguments brought by us, against any persons, or personal actions of Men. How-so-ever, again, in charging us, they do forget them-selves, so far, as, all-ways, to fall to personal, and, those, impudentlie false, and unjust Criminations. So, as you may see, that, of necessity, this Mark of HOLINESSE, must be understood of an holy, and lawful Worship, and holy, and pure Doctrine. And, albe-it I confess, that this can never be any-where, but, that, there-with, all-so, shall be some number of Names, both inwardly sanctified, by the Word, and Spirit, and, all-so, showing forth their Faith, by their works: yet, it is the HOLINESSE of Doctrine, and lawful, and pure Worship, which is the proper Mark of the true Church: and, not either the inward Sanctification of the Soul, which we see not: or, the only outward Manners, where-in we may be deceived.

〈2 pages missing〉 of your Man's Argument, I will now set it before you, that you may see the Force there-of:

That Company, which, only, hath in it holy Men, holy Service, Ceremonies, Sacrifice, Sacraments, Days, &c. must be the Church of GOD. But, in the Church of Rome, only, these are to be found. There-fore, the Church of Rome, is the only Church of GOD.

Now, to grant his Proposition, or Major, in such Sense, as where-in I have, all-ready, cleared, and you, all-so, ( Philomathes ) have confessed, That, only, it can consist. I deny his Assumption, or Minor, as which is shameleslie false: except, by the only, sure, and laid-down Rule, he prove it.

You must attend ( Eubulus ) the Probation of his Assumption, in the next Proper Ballad, that happeneth to break out of the Super-abundance of his Poēticall Veyne: and, suspende his Conclusion, till then. And, that, in the time, he may, the more seriously, set himself for it; what, if from his own Groundes, where-of he glorieth, one should draw this contrary Conclusion?

That Company, which hath turned all the Worship of GOD, (Who will be worshipped, in Spirit, and Truth) in a profane Histrionicke Farce: which teacheth, for Doctrines, the Traditions of Men': which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians, (whom their Lord will have to be free, saith Augustine ) with innumerable idle, & superstitious Ceremonies, of Mans inventiō; in the multitude whereof, all true Religion, is not only buried, but, all-so, lost: Which, after that perfect Sacrifice, which CHRIST offered, once for all, offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices, for Sin: Which devyseth Sacraments of their own, which they have not received from the LORD: Which, superstitiouslie, keep Days, and Tymes: Which set up Saints departed, and erect Images, to be worshipped, with Religious Adoration: Who, glorying of Fathers, and Martyrs, are, them-selves, Persecutors, and Murderers of the Sayncts: That Company cannot be the Church of CHRIST; but is, undoubtedly, The Antichristian Synagogue. But, such is the Church of Rome. There-fore, the Church of Rome, is not the true Church of CHRIST, but is, The Antichristian Synagogue.

Now, as your Man's stout Asseveration, of holy Service, Ceremonies, Sacrifice, Sacraments, Days, &c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion; except you try, & verify them to be such, by that only Touch-stone, which, in any case, you desire never to be touched: so will his vain Acclaiming of all the Sayncts, Martyrs, and Virgines, contained in our Kalendar, and the pretended canonizing of them, much less help him. What they have been, who are contained in our Kalendar, we are not much curious to inquyre; because we hold it not for a Register of Sayncts, but for a civil Rule, where-by to calculate Tymes. And I praesume, that Ianus, Julius, and Augustus, are none of the number written in Heaven, as, perhaps, no more are some others, who are written in the Kalendar; whose Names, yet, in civil use, may serve fitly for Notes of Tymes. And I think, verily, your Poet hath lost, both the Yeare of GOD, and Dominicall Letter, all-so, when he is proving Religion, from the Kalendar: which, we esteemed, ever should be cleared from Scripture. And, he hath dipped his Mynde so deeply in this Study, as he asketh, when, and where, they lived. But, foolish Man, it is neither the ryme, when, nor the place where, any Man, either liveth, or dieth, that maketh him a Christian. But, that third thing in his Question, which, only, for all; except to multiply Babling, he should have asked, namely, in what Faith they lived, and died? And, then, we answer, That, if they were Saints, indeed, they both lived, and died, in the same Faith which we hold; and were even of our Company: which Company, is not defined by Tyme, when, or place where, but by the union of what-so-ever persons, in what-so-ever place, and of what-so-ever time, in one LORD, one Faith, one Spirit, on Baptism, &c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Truth: and, Thy Word is Truth, saith our Savior. And, giving this, that all these Sayncts had been, not only in the Company of the Church of Rome, then, but, also, that they had been of her Company, (for many, even now, are in her Company, which are not of it: Come out of her, my People, saith the Spirit) and holding one, and the same Faith, which Rome, at that time, held: yet, as Eubulus hath now more than once told you, What will any Praise, or Praerogatiue of Rome, then, make for Rome, now, which is not now of the Company of Rome, then; but is the Synagogue of Satan; where-as, Rome, of old, was of our Company?

What? ( Philadelphus ) will you make those, whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized, to be of your Company? they were Canonized, I tell you, may Ages before Luther was borne.

Of their Canonizing, ( Eriphilus ) I will not, now, much dispute, whether it was farther, either to their honor, who were so Canonized; or to theirs, who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honor, in making Sayncts: or to the reproach, and disgrace, of both. I am certain, that whom GOD hath sanctified, he is, and will be, a Saynct, though the Pope, and all the Conclaue, had concluded the contrary: and, whom GOD hath not sanctified, no power in the Worlde, can make holy. I say, that in this your glorying, of Canonizing Saints, you have as valide an Argument, for the Church of Rome, as the building of the Prophets Tombes, and garnishing of their Sepulchers, was for the Jews, whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets, and them-selves, crucifiers of the LORD of Glory. And our Faith, ( Eriphilus ) was not borne, with Luther, no more, than your Heresy, was borne with you: but, our Faith, is the same Faith, where-by all Faythfull, in all Ages, and Places, ever lived: as yours is that same deceitful Illusion, which, even in the Apostolic times, Satan was a-hatching: and, which, having by slow degrees, mounted to so monstrous an height, is now, again, near the dead-trach, to the Devil's great displeasure.

If EUBULUS, and I, shall give over to you, PHILADELPHUS, and, to ERIPHILUS, the reasoning of this Matter, I fear, we must provyde us, some-where, of long Weapons, to go betwixt you, so Satyricke are you, and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS.

Verilie, ( Philomathes ) I mind not to free Eubulus of that Taske, where-of he can much better acquyte him-self, than I am able: and, if Eriphilus take my Counsel, he shall behold you all-so, to plead your part. And, it is not so much any Satyricke Speaches of mine, (as it pleaseth you to call them) which have marred Eriphilus Mirth, as Eubulus sad Syllogisms; whereby, he hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes, as, how-so-ever, at first, rejecting my Sonnets, he summoned us to Syllogisms; yet, I perceive him, now, so surfeyted with them, that, in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion, I will yet, vouchsafe him one Sonnet, to swadge it; where-in, he shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable.

I know not, howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mind: but, verily, you have made your word good, in this, That in all your Sonnet, there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable: all-be-it it be so full of Sentence, as you have compryzed, in a short Sum, the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse, against our Man's Markes. But, now, both the Day, and the Way, are shortening: and, we have, yet, one Poynt, to pass thorough: namely, of HAERETICKES. You have been so difficill, ( Eubulus ) to grant us the Title of the true Church, and have so far set at naught all our Notes: as, I would gladly hear, how you will clear your own Churches, from this imputation of HAERESIE, which our Man, here, at great length, layeth against you.

If he could have proved his power in any thing, he would, chiefly, have employed it, for the credit of his own Church, and Cause. Where-in, if he had prevailed, he should, with one, and the same travel, have over-thrown us, all-so. As, accordingly, you see, howe, in all his alleged Markes, he laboreth, to appropriate them so to Rome, (and, there-upon, to conclude of her, That she is the true Church) that, there-with, all-so, by a Consequence, in his Conceit, clear enough, our Churches, as defective, were condemned by him. And, in-deed, if he could possibly have well instructed the one, we had the less place to plead against the other. For Rome's Justification, should, sufficiently, convince us; like as the justifying of our Churches, showeth her to be Satan's Synagogue. But, if I have made him to be seen a weak Soldier, for him-self, it may well be praesumed, that he will prove no great Masteries against us; how-so-ever he assayleth us, with an Army of Interrogatours; if so be, that by the hudgenesse of the number, in common, the particular imbecility, of each severallie, might be supplied. And, to manifest this unto you, ( Philomathes ) in all his Ryme, (inscrybed HAERETICKS ) he racketh his Ingyne, to prove our Churches, to be heretical, even by this main Argument:

To whom the Notes of Haeretickes, do, properly, conveane: and, in whom manifold Defectes are found, which cannot befall the true Church: they must, of necessity, be heretical.

But, to the Protestant Churches, the Notes of Heretics do, properly, conveane: and, manyfold Defects, which cannot befall the true Church.

There-fore, the Protestant Churches, are heretical.

The Major of this Syllogism, is so clearly true, as it cannot be gain-said. Howe he proveth his Minor, we will try, GOD willing, when you have read unto us his Verses there-on. And, first, concerning the first point of heretical properties, to which I will, first, make answer: and, there-after, with no great a-do, we will over-turn all his Interrogatours, of those Defectes, which he would father upon our Churches.

Then, take heed, howe he descrybeth you.

Stay there, Philomathes: for in these Verses, is the probation of that first point of his Assumption, whereby the Notes of Haeretickes are affirmed of us: and, now, I pray you, advert a deadly Demonstration, where-by you said, jestinglie, that he descrybeth us:

Those Marks, given us, to discern Haeretickes, conveane but to such as profess the Name, and Worship, of CHRIST.

But, you Protestants, profess the Name, and Worship▪ of CHRIST.

Therefore, these Markes conveane to you: and, consequently, you are Haeretickes.

Now, how Cholericke so-ever you take Eriphilus to be in this Cause; yet, I will even admit him Judge, of this sad Syllogism, where-by your Poet will prove us Haeretickes. Would you allow me, ( Eriphilus ) to conclude your Ballader, a barking Dog, thus? Barking can conveane, but to living, and sensitive Creatures: but, your Ballader, is a living, and sensitive Creature: therefore, barking conveaneth to him; and, consequently, he is a Dog.

He is very skillesse in Logic, who knoweth not, that of miere Affirmatiues, in the second figure, nothing can conclude. And, you but skornfullie afforge to our Man, so senseless a manner of Argumentation.

I am content ( Eriphilus ) it be esteemed so of me; if, bending there-to all your Skill in Logic, you shall be able, out of your Man's Verses, to frame any other form of Conclusion, than that, which you say, I have afforged unto him. This is the sum of his last read Verses; Such, and such, are the Notes of Haeretickes: which Notes, conveane, only, to Men professing CHRIST; for, to Jews, Turks, and Pagans, who deny His Name, they cannot be competent. But, you, Protestants, profess the Name of CHRIST: and, there-fore, &c.

Verilie, ( Eriphilus ) I fear, that both our Skills, in Logic, shall, hardly, find out a better form of our Man's words: where-in Eubulus hath so opened a chyldish over-sight, as I cannot find, well, a Vayle to cover it.

At worst, it is but a fault in form; which, in a well-consisting matter, may be soon mended.

But, I pray you, (good Eriphilus ) though you had a Syllogism, at your own shaping, will you ever find matter, where-of to make it, or, us Haeretickes, by it; in this, that we profess CHRISTIANITIE? or, putting it even to the Racke, will it afford any reason, where-fore to bind on us, the Notes of Haeretickes, more than on the Church of Rome, which professeth the Name, & Worship, of CHRIST, all-so? Except you will be allowed, to reply, as one of your Profession, one day, disputing with me, of Antichrist, (when I propounded an Argument, where-by I concluded, that of the Pope; in place of resuming the partes of my Reason) answered me confusedlie, and confidently, That, find him out, as we could, other ways, the Pope could not, possibly, be once suspected to be Antichrist, for he is CHRIST HIS Vicar. Shall we be counted Haeretickes, ( Eriphilus ) only, because it pleaseth your Poet, so to call us? To whom these Notes do most fitly agree, let the rightly-illuminated, judge: and, He will judge one day, who judgeth righteouslie, and, whose is all judgment. We pass very little, to be judged by your Man: yea, we judge not our selves.

You are too sharp sighted, ( Eubulus: ) he hath thought, that under the sweetness of Poesie, such a slip in Logic, might have easily been concealed.

That might have been praesumed of Sirens, singing unto Swyne. But, to leave the Man, with his own Logic; I would demand of you, ( Philomathes ) why, in so long an Enumeration of heretical Notes, he hath passed over those, where-by the holy Ghost witnesseth, that Haeretickes, and of this time, may be moste clearly known? And, what a Conscience doeth it argue, to amasse a number, where-of the application may breed but jangling; and, to keep silence, of the moste notifying Notes of all?

You still mistake the Man, ( Eubulus: ) Charity beginneth at ones self: and, accordingly, their Poet is so full of Self-love, as he never minded to produce ought, where-by to praejudge his own cause.

But, what are those Notes, ( Eubulus ) with the fraudulent omission, where-of you do charge our Man?

I will essay, by a more formal Syllogism, than he framed against us, to lead you both to know them, and to acknowledge of them, that they so nearlie touch your Romish Church, as might make your Man think, they were no Wares, for him to exhibit:

In-deed, ( Eubulus ) your Syllogism hath a better form, but a much badder matter.

And if I make the matter, as good as the form, then all shall hold good; where-in, yet, (that I may be charitablie conceived) I mean by the Church of Rome, (as I have, now more than once signified) the Evil in the Body, not, absolutely, the Body affected there-with: the Papalitie, not all, who are named Papists: not all, who have the Name, or Number of the Beast, but who have his Character.

If, even thus, you make your matter good, we have lost a Gayne.

Then, let us examine the partes of mine Argument. I hope you will admit my Major.

It cannot be denied. It resteth you, to prove your Minor.

My Minor, or Assumption, chargeth Papalitie, or charactarized Papists, with two maligning Markes; Doctrines of Devils, and Devilish Dealing. I will, first, prove the one, and then the other, also. That the Church of Rome, teacheth Devilish Doctrine, I prove it thus:

The Major of your Argument, is from Paul, and cannot be denied. I distinguish your Minor: for, if you say, that the Church of Rome, either forbiddeth Marriage, absolutely, and, as a thing, absolutely, and in it self, damnable: or, commandeth, to abstain from Meats, absolutely, as from things, absolutely, and in them-selves, unclean; (which is the forbidding, and commanding meaned of the Apostle) then is your Assumption false. But, that the Church of Rome, in some respects, and to some persons, forbiddeth Marriage; and, in some respects, commandeth, to abstain from some Meats, I do not deny. But, this is not against the Apostle his mind; who prophesied, in that place, of some ancient Haeretickes, in the Primitive Church, who, absolutely, damned Marriage, and diverse sorts of Meats, as, in them-selves, polluted.

If so serious, and hazardous points, be well, or wisely, put upon the danger of so cavillatorie a Distinction, devysed by Men, I report me to your own Conscience: that, others, before, have been in the same sin, and, perhaps, in some farther degree there-of; what doeth that excuse the Romish Church; which, in any degree, praesumeth to forbid, and command that, the forbidding, and commanding where-of, the holy Ghost affirmeth, to be Devilish? Is not this to play, and that even perilouslie, in a serious matter? The Church (you say) doeth not condemn Marriage: but, the Apostle maketh even the forbidders there-of, to be Devilish Doctors. And, yet, if who are in the flesh, are, in that, to be condemned, (by the Apostle's Doctrine:) how can you absolve your Romish Church, of condemning Marriage; when she affirmeth, of married persons, That they are in the flesh? Now, where you affirm, the Apostle, in that Prophesy, to have eyed only the ancient Haeretickes, absolute condemners of Marriage, and Meats; all circumstances of the place, evince, manyfestlie, that he neither eyed them only, nor principally: but, that also, and principally, the holy Ghost eyed your Church of Rome. I let this go, that he speaketh of the latter times, which yet (I am persuaded) hath a narrower relation, than that, where-by, I know, you will seek to shift this point. He speaketh, there-with, of such, as, by great and cunning Hypocrisy, should have so great place, as, by Authority, to forbid, and command. But, it is well known, that the ancient Haeretickes, mayntayners of these Doctrines, were, in their very first out-setting, exsibilated, and abhorred, commonly, of all: and, that, both they, and their Doctrine, soon evanished. So, as, it is plain, that so serious a warning of the Apostle, is chiefly, in regard of more dangerous Doctors, and so far, by Hypocrisy, obtaining place, and authority in the Church, as to come prowdlie to 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , (interdicting, and commanding.) And, thus, ( Philomathes ) all your distinction, of mine Assumption, is vain, and cavillatorie: and, so, will never vindicate your Romish Church, from the guilt of my Conclusion.

Verilie, all-be-it I dare not condemn the Church, or suspect rashlie of her, in these, or any such points: yet, I will not deny, but that I could have wished her, to have been less audacious, in so perilous a Case, and to have given you less advantage against her here-in. But, go forwards. You took, all-so, for to prove, against our Church, That, by Devilish Dealing, they verified them-selves, to be Satan's Children; which was the seconde point, of your main Assumption, against us.

I prove it, thus:

Who are Liars, and Murderers, like their father, the devil, their Dealing is Devilish; and, they verify themselves, there-by, to be the Devils Children.

But, the Church of Rome, are Liars, and Murderers, like their Father, the Devil.

There-fore, their Dealing is Devilish; and, they verify of them-selves, that they are Satan his Children.

Is this, for-sooth, the calm Conference you protested for? And, are you the Man, that so far abhorreth bitter Contention; who falleth, thus, not only to Bitterness, but even to open Reproaches, and impudent Rayling? Did not you, in Disputation, about Poyntes of Doctrine, disallow all personal Criminations? Where-in, to all, and any Instances, which you can bring against us, when we have opposed as many, and as odious, on your side; shall not all our Dispute, but finish in a foul Flyting?

I have neither, as yet, touched any man his person, or spoken of any personal Action, of Lying, and Murdering; neither mind I, by any such Instances, to strengthen mine Assumption, howe many, and howe tragical so-ever, I might easily produce, and those of recent Practice. So as, thus once again ( Eriphilus ) heat, hath made you too hasty. What-so-ever Instances you might oppose to me, of our Men, in personal Recriminations; yet, I am sure, that you shall never verify of any, on our side, that they teach, and, by public Books, maintain, That it is lawful to lie, and to commit Murder. So, as, if I prove, that your ROMANISTES, not only practice privilie, but, all-so, teach, yea, and maintain, openly, That it is lawful to lie, and murder, I hope, I shall make mine Assumption good; and, yet, never a whit, there-fore, declyne from the course of a calm Conference, and Rules of a lawful Disputation.

When you clear so great a Calumnie, then shall I confess my too great heat in an evil Cause.

Will you not grant me, ( Eriphilus ) that, who praise the Art of Simulation, and Dissimulation, to be both good, and profitable, and, call it Prudence, and Virtue, yea, and a good Prudence: and affirm, That who use it, are to be praised, those are Teachers, of Men, to become Liars?

You will not, so easily as you trow, get me in-trapped, with your Interrogatours: for, there is some even Godly and prudent Simulation.

I mind no such Circumvention, as you fear, but moste plain Dealing, for gaining of you, more than my Poynt. And, to show you howe far I am, from entertayning impertinent Plea, I will not, now, question with you, about this, howe well any Simulation may be made to accord with Prudence, and Piety. But, let the Instances, which I shall produce, bear witness, whether they be such, as may escape under this your Sconse. As for the Position, which I have brought, in all the Poyntes there-of, your own Man, Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta, (who hath written a whole Treatise, of Aequivocations, in Favoures, as he professeth, of the Jesuits, In Cap. humanae aures, 12. Quaest. 5.) affirmeth playnleie, In d. Cap. humanae, Pag. 352. & Pag. 349. Et pag. 351.

You may, perhaps, wrong him, in this Imputation: But, and though any one such Man hath written so, yet ought it not be counted a common Fault of our CHURCH. Howe many of your Men, maintain Poyntes, which your CHURCH, yet, disadvoweth in common?

If I do wrong him, his Book, and places there-of, alleged by me, will witness. And, that his Doctrine, is a just Imputation, against your Church, is clear, by this; That Pope Gregory the thirteenth, approved, and ratified his Doctrine, as ( Sanctam, & inconcussam ) holy, and stable. And, besides him, Gregorius de Valentia, a lesuit, Tom. 3. Dispute. 5. Quaest. 13. de reo. punct. 2. calleth AEQVIVOCATION, (Prudentem Defensionem ) a wise Defense. The fore-named Navarrus, in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest. 5. Pag. 348. recordeth, and highly praiseth an Aequivocation used by Saynct FRANCIS: who, being asked, by the Sergeantes, pursuing after a Murder, If such a Murderer had passed that way? did put his Handes, in his Gowne Slieues, and answered, That he had not passed that way. Understanding, with himself, contrary to common perception, that he had not passed thorough his Slieues. And, the said Navarrus, addeth, even there, ( Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus, fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchy FRANCISCI: ) that this Doctrine of Aequivocations, is founded, upon that noble Fact, of that Great PATRIARCH, Saynct FRANCIS.

Besides that common dislyke, which all-most all the other Roman Clergy have of Jesuits, I think, that the Cordeliers have here a proper Quarrell, and a most competent Plea, and Action, against them: who thus take unto them-selves, wrongfully, the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION; which, being founded on the noble Act of Saynct FRANCIS, should, with all reason, have remained the Property of his Family: as, accordingly, they were called, once, commonly, LYING FRIERS: till, now, the Jesuits have so far encroached upon this their Right, as that, how far so-ever the Friers be still set to maintain their Title, yet the Jesuits do far exceed them, in all the cunning kinds of Aequivocation.

It is an vnlucklie Debate, where-in the Victors greatest Honor is, that, there-by, he proveth to be the more near sib unto Satan. But, to prosecute my Matter; The same Navarrus teacheth, that a person accused before a Judge, who proceedeth not ( juridice ) lawfully, is not holden to confess the Truth: but, may use AEQVIVOCATION, mentallie reserving within him-self, some other thing, than his words do sound: yea, either in Answer, or Oath, to his Judge, or Superior, that he may use a Bout-gate of Speach, ( Amphibologia ) whether through a diverse signification of the word, or through the diverse intention of the asker, and of him that maketh answer, and although it be false, according to the meaning of the asker: in cap. Ne quis. can. 22. quaest. 2. The same Navarrus, instructeth a Witness, to depone, that he knoweth nothing; reserving this within him-self, nothing that he is holden to tell. And, he giveth the same instruction, to Pleaders, who are required to give their Oaths, de calumnia, or, of Veritie, Pag. 151. Toletus, a Jesuit, and a Cardinal, teacheth these same healthsome Lessons, Instruct. sacerd. lib. 4. cap. 21. Jacobus Sylvanus, alias, Keller, Jesuit, teacheth the same, Philipp. contr. Anonymum, &c. pag. 5. Besides all these, ( Eriphilus ) do they not teach men to be Liars, who affirm, that no Oath given to an Haereticke, or Infidel, is to be keeped? And, yet, this was both enacted, and practiced, in the Council of Constance. Jacobus Simancha, Episcopus Pacensis, de Catholic▪ institut▪ cap. 46, all-so avoucheth it. Conradus Brunus, de Haereticis, lib. 3. cap. 15, determineth, that no Pactions, Conventions, Laws, Confirmations, ( rescripta ) where-by Haeretickes obtain Peace, and Security, ought to be keeped, or counted of any force, or effect. Now, if willful, and even purposed Perjurie, may be counted Piety; and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Truth, you esteem a prudent Simulation, ( Eriphilus ) I think him pittifullie imprudent, who hath any dealing with you.

I beseech you, ( Eubulus ) no more of this. For my part, I never lyked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation: And, I think, verily, that the Church hath been evil beholden to those Men, what-so-ever they were, who have brought that Blot upon the Catholic Faith.

Then, ( Philomathes ) of all others, the Church is worst beholden to the Pope, who hath approved, and confirmed, and yet still •… hamelessie mayntayneth, that disgraceful Doctrine. And you, who see the Evil, are yet worse, than woe •… st of all, beholden to your-selves; who, in so plainly, a perceived Praevarication, yet suffer yourselves to be so sensleslie, and miserably, miscarried. But, how-so-ever I be, in this purpose, more plain than pleasant unto you: and that, even there-fore, I could be content to speak no more of it, who am loath to grieve you in anything; yet, because I promised it to Eriphilus, and he conceived, that I could not possibly clear such (as he called it) a Calumnie, I must essay, to acquyte myself, in proving all-so of your Romanists, the other Poynt, and Note of their spiritual K •… nred, propounded by me, of Devilish Dealing: namely, that they are Murderers, and teach men so, as well as Liars, and, thus, are Satan's upright Children. Cardinal Baronius, in his Epistle against the Venetians, speaketh thus; The Ministry of Peter, (blessed Father) is twofold, To feed, and to kill; according to that, [Feede my Sheep] and according to that [Kill, and eat.] For, when the Pope hath to deal with refractary, and averse parties, (as are the Venetians) then Peter is bidden, Kill, and slay, and pack them up in his Bellie. Is not this, I pray you, reverentlie, and rightly used Scripture? The same Baronius, in his Paraenesis to the Venetians, Pag. 9. It resteth, O Father, (the Pope) that you draw against Malefactours the Sword of Peter; whom to this ende, CHRIST appointed over Kingdoms, and Nations. Their King-killing Doctrine is too well known, and too tragicallie, what attempted, what archieved by them. Johan. Mariana, Jesuit, de Rege, lib. 1. cap. 6. affirmeth, That Subjects, willing to do so, may depose the King from his Princelie state: and, that from all memory, it hath been esteemed a praise-worthy thing, who-so-ever attempted to oppress Tyrants. And, Pag. 60. If no means be of obtaining a public Convention, then who (favoring the common Wishes) shall attempt to kill a King, or Prince, I will not esteem that he hath done wrong. For, their advowed Impudencie, in this pernicious Opinion, let any Man read the Jesuit's Book, De Henrici tertii abdicatione, which was put forth at Lions, Anno, 1591: in the Praeface where-of, are these words; That seeing this is one, and the same common Cause, of that other Henry, a wicked Tyrant, all-so, &c. therefore, it is, that since we have spoken of the just abdication of the first, we desire, that we may appear so to have spoken (de hoc quo{que} excludendo, immo conterendo & perdendo) of excluding; yea, down-beating, and destroying of this other, all-so. Mariana, de Rege, pag. 59. for King-killing, allegeth the Exemple of E •… ud: as if common and ordinary actions, could be warranded by extraordinary, which ought not to be drawn in example. And the same is brought, all-so, in defense of the Jesuits, Tom. 6. memor. lig. pag. 281: and, together with it, diverse Roman Doctors, are alleged, all-so, to this same purpose, as Cajetan. Dominicus Soto. Thomas Aquin. Sylvester Fumus. But, that you may yet see portentuous, both Impudencie, and Impiety, Johannes Mariana, Jesuit, De Rege, lib. 1. cap. 7. pag 65. & 67. hath these words; Quid interest ferro an vene •… o per •… as? &c. that is, What mattereth it, whether thou kill with Knyfe, or with Poison? That which is done by Poison, is done with less danger, and more hope of impunity. Upon my Warrand, thou mayest use Poison: but, with this provision, that be who is killed there-by, be not compelled, him-self to drink the Poison, where-by he may perish: but that it be outwardly applied, by some other, without using any aid of him, who is killed there-by. Seeing, especially, that so great is the strength of Poison, that either the Chair, or Apparel, stroked there-with, may have force to kill. And, in the ende of that same Chapter, pag. 68. he concludeth, That it is lawful, by all means, to compass ones death; so being, that neither wittinglie, nor vnwittinglie, he be made his own Executioner.

And, if it may neither offend Philadelphus, (for some far carnal conjunction he had with him) nor you, ( Eriphilus ) who accounteth him an holy Martyr, I might add to the former, a familiar, and late Proof, of what Spirit those Men are, in that brain-sick Traitor, who being executed this other year, for peartlie practiced, and phreneticallie professed Treason: yet, soon after, for-sooth, was canonized, and, by you, ( Eriphilus ) esteemed a Martyr. But it falleth you foul, that you can never find one to fill up that Roll, but Men, both accused, and clearly convinced, of Theft, or Treason.

For any Interest I had in that Man, I may, warrandablie, say, that, what-so-ever he be, of HIS MAIESTIE'S Liedges, who either thinketh so of him, or speaketh of him, as a Martyr, he meriteth, most justly, to be canonized, in the Catalogue of arrand Traitors; and, to receive the Recompence of such. But, now, ( Eriphilus ) hath not Eubulus, think you, sufficiently, cleared the Truth, of that which you called a Calumnie? And, are these, for-sooth, the abstruse Mysteries, of your Jesuits Divinity? And, howe jumplie, are they the Followers of JESUS; who, not only, are open, and audacious Encowragers to Murder; but, all-so, so cunning Informers, of all the diverse Manners, of mischievous working; and, are so well practiced, in all the operative Powers, and application of Poison; that, they may be moste apt APOTHECARIES, for Pluto? And, it is goodly to see, howe, in the open practice, of monstrous Impiety, yet they would make Asses believe, that, at least, they kill conscientiouslie. For, they are so squimmish, for-sooth, as, in any Case, they will not have a Man made his own Executioner. And, this is just such an Holiness, as had the Priests, and Pharisees; who, whiles they were, with all Falsehood, Crueltie, and bloody, and vnbrydeled Rage, murdering the LORD JESUS, yet they would neither pollute their Sanctitie, by entering into the Common HALL, nor receive the price of Blood into their TREASURY. Thus, Hypocrites, even in the open Practice, of moste gross, and detestable sins, yet bear the, justly benumbed, world in hand; that, because they strayne Gnattes, they cannot, but, in a good Conscience, swallow Camels.

But, what a monstrous excecation, of Men, is this; that so prodigious Impiety findeth, amongst Professors of CHRISTIANITIE; not only Patrocinie, but, all-so, Admiration? Where-as, any Heathen Man, of settled Senses, would skunner, at the very mention, of such monstrous dealing: where-by, all Bandes of Commerce, amongst Men, which either DIVINITIE, HVMANITIE, or NATVRE, by any kind of Law, have established; are, impiouslie, vnhumanlie, and vnnaturallie, broken.

When GOD will not be defended, with a Lie; neither, will have us to do any evil, that good may ensue there-of; shall a bare pretence of Zeal, and intention of a good ende, make more than Cyclopicke feritie, and devilish Deceit, to become good Religion? What if those honest-hearted Heathen, whom the Record of Story, extolleth so much for TRVETH, IVSTICE, TEMPERANCE, FORTITVDE, and others, MORAL VERTVES, (who yet knew not the true GOD, nor the sole Way of LYFE ) were raised from the Death, and did see, and hear, what Men, called CHRISTIANS, and acclayming the Title of KNOWLEDGE, and HOLINESSE, from all others, do not only practice, but profess, all-so; would they not be persuaded, that all the Devils of Hell, had come forth, under Ecclesiastic Names, and Habites, to destroy the World?

Let me entreat you, (good Philadelphus ) to insist no more in this Subject: other-ways, you will turn Eriphilus Choler, into a burning Ague.

I will, at your request, forbear it: yet so, as I must tell you this one word; That, I will rather choose, to be mine own Varlot, than either to have the Chair set unto me, or mine Apparel reached me, by any Page, which hath passed his Prentiship, and, hath been initiated, in the Secrets of the Chamber of Meditations. And, for Eriphilus, I will presently refresh his Mynde, with one Sonnet more; where-by to prevent his Ague, or, at least, to give him a mature Cooling, in the very beginning of his Fitte.

Your Syrope ( Philadelphus ) is little less unpleasant, than your Potion: so, as Eriphilus hath to provide him-self, other-ways, of Patience. But, leaving this, I will turn me again, to Eubulus, who gave the Wound, which you, well satyricklie have rankled. You remember, ( Eubulus ) that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse, of HAERETICKES, in this main Syllogism: To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES, do properly conveane; and, in whom are found manifold Defectes, which cannot befall the true Church; they must, of necessity, be baereticall. But, to the Protestant Churches, the Notes of HAERETICKES, do properly conveane; and, in them are found manifold Defectes, which cannot befall the true Church. There-fore, the Protestant Churches, are heretical. The Proposition, of this Argument, you admitted. To the first part, of the Assumption, (as touching the Notes of Haeretickes ) you have so answered; that, laboring to clear yourselves, you have laid over, well sadlie, that Imputation upon our Church. Now, then, all-be-it we have, the longer, but the less Esperance of prevailing; yet, seeing this other point (concerning the Defectes found in you, or affirmed of you) resteth now, only, of all our Man's Poēsie, to be spoken of; I would hear your Aunsweres, all-so, unto his Interrogatours there-upon.

Of this, ( Philomathes ) I will acquyte myself, with small a-do; for, that, all-most, all the Defectes objected unto us, are, upon your Poet's praesumed Opinion, That we want those Markes, where-of hath been spoken: So, as, any sensible Man, in that which we have all-ready said, shall find all his subsequent Questions, sufficiently answered. Besides that, else-where, I have answered them, at such length, as my Discourse, here, may be the shorter, and you yet, aboundantlie, satisfied; if not with that which I now say, yet, with easy pains, to read mine other TREATISES. Now, then, read forth, in order, your Man's Questions.

I will both gladly hear, what you shall now say, and will not weary, all-so, to read what else-where you have written. These, now, are the Questions.

You may perceive ( Philomathes ) the truth of that which I said unto you; that all these yourman's questions, are coincident, with the cases of Continuance, & Visibility, whereof we have spoken: except, that, in end, for giving us a deadly blow, in his conceit, he close all up, with the question of our Callings. And, to make clear to you, how your man multiplieth words, in vain, without knowledge, I reduce all his impertinent prattling, to this main Argument:

Verilie, our Poet, if he were even here present, could allege no Prevarication on you, in the upright compryzing of the sum of his Discourse. And, if you shall answer to it, as clearly, and ingeniouslie, as you have ingeniouslie propounded it, undoubtedly the best of this Game will be yours.

The Proposition of his Argument, is true: but his Assumption, is extreamlie false: where-of he laboreth, to fortify the first part, touching the Defects alleged on our Churches, thus:

The Promise of CHRIST, to His Church, is, That Peter's faith shall never fail: that, The Gates of Hell shall not prevail against her: that, The Salt shall not lose its savor: that, The Bryde shall not be out of favor: that, The Church shall remain the stable Pillar of Truth, &c. and, According to this Promise, the certain Condition of the Church, is, That She all-ways continueth, and is, visible. But, by these things, which you affirm, of your Churches, Peter's Faith should have failed: The Gates of Hell should have prevailed: the Salt should have lost its savor: the Spouse should have been out of favor: the Pillar should have been over-thrown: and, the Church of CHRIST, should not have continued, and continued visible. There-fore, things affirmed by you, cannot consist with the promise of CHRIST, made to His Church, and her Condition, accordingly: and, consequently, you are Haeretickes.

Thus, having, as he thinketh, set us aside, from any Interest in the Title of CHRIST'S Church: next, upon a ground, confessed by us, but miserable mistaken by him, he buildeth a Conclusion, for the second part of his main Assumption, which concerneth the Church of Rome, thus:

To give lawful Ordination to Pastors, is competent only to the Church of CHRIST. But, you, Protestants, acknowledge, That the Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawful Ordination. There-fore, the Church of Rome, must be the Church of CHRIST.

Do you not, now, perceive ( Philomathes ) whither your Man's meaning tendeth, by all this his great Squadron of Interrogatours: with the multitude where-of, he would, in a Musicall Mood, over-whelme us?

I now perceive it well enough: you have reduced all, to so clear and compendious a form. And, granting the Major of his main Argument, you denied his Minor. And, first, that part there-of, which, upon the Defectes, laid against you, he assumed of your Churches. For Probation where-of, I must confess, that no-thing is brought, by him, in his second Syllogism, but the all-ready disputed points, of Continuance, and Visibility. Where-of you have said •… o much, as we cannot, goodly, require anymore of you. So, that, except it please you to answer unto his last, and, appearinglie, insoluble Objection, against you, grounded on your own Grant, of lawful Ordination by the Church of Rome, I think, for me, there resteth no other point vndiscussed of all our matter.

Of his Objection, of lawful Calling, by the Church of Rome, and all that he can possibly build thereon, I shall, GOD, willing, either pay him, or prove him all-ready paid, more than aboundantlie. And, all-be-it I have before, all-so, spoken of the other points; yet, for more clearing, whether he better proveth, or I deny his main Assumption, let us take a short view of his Interrogatours.

Then, say to them, and we will hear gladly. Thus they are.

We affirm, that our Faith, which is the only true Faith, hath appeared, not six hundredth, only, but, now, all-most, sixeteene hundredth years; though not in alike evidence, at all times, or to all persons: and, though not all-ways, perceived, even of them, to whom it appeared. For, as the Smoke of the bottomless Pit, by degrees prevailed; so, was true Light, the less, and of the lesser number, perceived, And, yet, even in the height of that Evil, (when a Throne was erected to Satan, in the Temple of GOD, and Antichrist obtained, not only the Court of the Temple, but, all-so, all the holy City) there were Candle-sticks, still, in the Temple, and good numbers of Sealed Ones, following the Lamb, on Mount Zion, while all the miscarried Earth, followed the Beast: although none could hear, or learn, their Song, but themselves; who, in that common Apostasy, were bought from the Earth, to be the true Citizens of Heaven, all-be-it in the Earth, yet not of it.

Now, what time Popery did first begin, what Man is he, that needeth to make any question, who readeth Paul, affirming plainly, that the Mystery of Iniquity, was even then begun to work: or, who readeth John, avouching that Antichrist was even then in the World? That the first beginninges, and subtle Insinuation, were not, commonly, marked, it was the LORD His wise Dispensation, and Satan's deep Deceit: for, other-ways, it had been no Mystery. Doeth not the LORD Him-self, teach us, in Parable, That the envyous one, did sow his Tares, even with the good Seed, in the LORD His own Fielde; and, that, so covertlie, and subtillie, while the Servauntes were sleeping; that, all-be-it mixed with the good Seed, and waxing in the midst there-of; yet, it is not espied, until, by different Stalke, Flowre, and Eare, it bewray whose Hand did scatter it: so, as the very Servants, all-be-it, by time, they see it growing, and waxing, and discern it to be adulterous; yet, they cannot tell howe, by whom, nor what time, it was sown? And, shall Tares, I pray you, be counted good Wheat, except the moment, and first Sower there-of, be shown? Your Man doteth, and deceiveth, in reasoning, Sophisticallie, from Popery, in the first Seed, to Popery begotten: and, even from Popery begotten, in the first subtle Insinuation, and cunninglie-covered beginninges, to Popery borne, and brought forth: and, from Popery, even brought forth, but yet still masked, under fair and plausible Pretences, and swedled up, in the Clouts of GOD His Children; to Popery, at length, kything, openly, Teeth, Horns, and Clawes: so, bewraying, evidently, whose Broode it was; all-be-it long, and fraudfullie fostered, in the midst of GOD His own House. Satan was, long, in all Subtlety, and deep Deceit, a-bringing out of that Monster, as the last, and greatest Master-stich, of all his Policy, and Power: and, much, and dark time, behooved to be allotted, to the begetting of that great Hercules, of the infernal Jupiter. First, in the Seed: Next, in the Egg: whence Satan, long, and sedulouslie, sitting there-on, at length, hatched out a Serpent: which became, by time, a fiery flying Dragon. For, the Beast arose out of the Earth, slowlie, and insensiblie: not as that Tages, repent doctus in ipso nascendi Articulo. You may read, if you list, ( Philomathes ) a more large Answer, to this same vain Question, sent to myself, by one of your side, in my Discoverie of his Dotage there-in.

I will, GOD willing, read it. But, what say you to this?

They were even where Satan's Throne was: and, all-be-it tolerating spiritual Fornication, (for which the LORD had some-thing against them) yet, keeping the NAME of GOD, them-selves, and, informing others, in the true knowledge there-of; they were in the Temple, while Antichrist trode down the Court there-of, and the holy City: and, powerfullie, dispensing, there-in, both Light, and Grace, to true Christians; and, having Vengeance in readiness, against their Enemies; they were in the Wilderness, both fed, and feeding others. They were on Mount Zion, with the Lamb, both worshipping, purelie, them-selves, and leading others there-in; though none either heard, or learned, their Song, but the sealed Virgines, while the Beast miscarried all the Earth, to commit spiritual Fornication.

Thus, they were, all-ways, and, both spake the Truth, and, for the Truth. But, the blind, and stupefied Sectatours of the Beast, neither saw, nor heard them. For, howe soon the Beast of the bottomless Pit perceived them: then was The Patience of the Saints: and, then, Blessed were the Dead, which died in the LORD: then lay they unburied, in the Streetes of that great City, which, spiritually, is called Sodom, and Egypt: and, then the Whoore was drunken, with the Blood of Saints; and, the Beast became, wholly, of the Dragon's Colour.

Now, where, upon this, That no opposition was made by them, your Man concludeth, That, there-fore, none at all were; I pray you, ( Philomathes ) what kind of Logic do you account it? Because, in Spain, and Italy, no open opposition is made to Popery; are there, there-fore, no Protestant, either Pastors, or Professors, in those partes? The future Ages, might, perhaps, be induced to think so; because that so the Story of the Tyme may carry; no-thing being recorded, but what, in common, obtayneth in the Tyme. But, we, who now live, would laugh him to heading, as an impudent, or senseless Liar, who would but deny, that, even in Rome, are hundreds, who hold the Pope, to be Antichrist. And, howe great encowragement so-ever, our too great Lenitie, giveth them of kything; yet, would they be contented, that their numbers, amongst us, were esteemed, but according to their open and advowed opposition? When the golden Calf, was set up, in the Wilderness, and that, by so common an Apostasy, as that Aaron was carried away with the violent Streame of that Evil, it might appear, that none had been, there, for the LORD, or free of that common Guiltinesse: and, yet thousands did kythe in the convenient time of challenge. Were there none true, either Prophets, or Professors, in Israel, the years of Elias, lurking? And, yet, who spake publicklie for the Truth? Did not even Elias think, that all were gone, when yet there were an hundredth Prophets, in one Cave, and seven thousand true Professors, in one, and the same Kingdom? Shall Tolleration, specially in perilous times, conclude approbation, of what is tolerated, in all the Tolleraters there-of? Doeth not Augustine acknowledge, in his time, (where-in the Mystery of Iniquity, was not so far advanced, but that Truth still obtained some place, in common) that, for regard of the CHURCHES peace, they were compelled to tolerate many things, which, other-ways, they utterly mislyked? Attour, in your Man's Objection, is another ridiculous Fallacie; by confounding the diverse and distinct times, and, accordingly, the diverse and distinct degrees of growth, of that Apostasy, in the course of time: and, not distinguishing, accordingly, the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers, and of opposition thereunto. No Age, since the Apostolic times, wanted its own opposition, and Opponers, according to the degree of Evil, all-though they came not to that last, and highest degree, to which the open discovery of the Evil, in the top of all importable, and incurable Impiety, did force Men.

Love, is ever loath to cast off, till all hope be past. And, sober Men, some-times, in a laudable judgment; some-times, again, in weakness, will even choose, often, in a prevailing Iniquity, rather to lurk, and keep themselves clean; than, with perilous Contestation, either to disturb the CHURCHES Peace, or object them-selves, to desperate Daungers. Which, not-with-standing, when they perceive, that (without plain peril of all Christianity, and imputation to them-selves, of betraying the Gospel) Peace can no more be keeped; will then, rather contest, with all hazard, than tolerate a clearly-discovered, and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe. Shall a Thief, be counted no Thief, but from the time of his open Endytement? Or, shall the first beginninges, of injurious Vsurpation, on the one part; and, an undoubted, and clear Right, on the other; be reckoned only from the first public points of Litiscontestation? A Man, disposed to Peace, will long bear, and, patiently, expect Reparation of Wronges; and, even comport, with many injurious Encroachmentes: upon hope, that Reason, and gentle Admonition, will bring the Partie to do him measure. Who, not-with-standing, at last, perceiving his Adversaries waywardness, and daily progress in wrong doing; will, then, intend plain Action against him, for his Right. Now, shall the usurping, and injurious Partie, have, in this, any reason, where-by either to justify him-self, or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges, and usurpation; because they were never, till then, challenged, in that manner, and degree? You may see more, here-of, in my TREATISE, of our CALLINGES, and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION.

Well: let us go on.

No: but, if it had, what should have followed there-upon unto the Church, more than upon the fall of Judas? What a ridiculous Question is this? as, if, on the standing, or falling, of any one Man, or, what-so-ever number of Men, did hang the fall, or stability, of the Church: which is built, neither on Man, nor Men; but, on that immooueable Rock, which cannot fall.

Yet, your Bellarmine confesseth, That, though the Pope should fall away from Truth, yet, the Church should not, there-fore, fail.

You, who are so quick a Carper of Aequivocations, fall, now, to the same Play, which you reprove so often in our Poet. For, by Peter 's Faith, he doeth not mean that Spiritual Virtue, where-with Peter was endued, there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation, (as you would, perhaps, descrybe it:) but that Doctrine of Faith, which Peter professed, and taught.

Then, ( Philomathes ) the playing with Aequivocations, shall be still your Poet's part: for the Lord prayed, for the stability of Peter 's particular faith, where-of Satan sought to sift him; &, which, remaining steadfast, was his Victory, in that his Temptation, as I have before signified. And if your Man, will have it permitted unto him, by Poetical Licence, against the LORD'S mind, to wrest Scripture, and to entitle, thus, the Doctrine of Faith: yet, why is it called Peter 's faith, more than Paul's, I am 's, or John 's? And, why would not your Poet rather (according to Scripture speech) cal it the Faith of our LORD JESUS CHRIST? But, in what-so-ever sense, giving him, that the Fall, or Standing of the Church, had depended, wholly, on the failing, or stability, of Peter's Faith; could that Faith, be no other-ways preserved, but in the Church of Rome? And, shall the fall of Rome, conclude, that Peter's Faith, and, consequently, CHRIST'S Church, is fallen? To make this Conclusion infallible; your Man must bring a better Argument, than a vain vaunt, of a bare personal Succession: while, in the time, they are fallen away from Peter's Faith, to the faith of Simon Magus.

Did the Gates of Hell prevail?

No: but they did so far assayle, and with such success (in GOD His just judgment, and wise permisssion) as Satan obtained a Throne, even in the Temple of GOD.

Did the Salt lose its Savour?

It did so far lose its Savour, in common; and, such as should have been the Salt of the Earth, became so vnsavourie, that they could serve for nothing, but to be cast out, and trodden under foot: ( Cast out the Court, which is with-out the Temple, and mete it not, &c.) yet ever still the LORD had Ministers, so seasoned, with the Spirit of Light, and Grace, as they were, all-ways, Candle-sticks, and Olives, to the Temple: all-be-it, long, few, and laboring in many Tears; and, at length, cruelly, murdered, by that vnsavourie, and unsanctified Fellowship.

Was the Bryde out of favor?

Never: all-be-it, often-times, the Brydegrome hath had some-what against her: while, dwelling where Satan's Throne was, and keeping even there, the Name of Her LORD; yet, in weakness, she tolerated spiritual Fornication. She was never out of favor: yet she hath been often afflicted, and tossed with tempest, having no 〈◊〉 : but, beaten, even of the Watch-men: and glad to lurk, and to be fed in the Wilderness: while the masked Whoore, with subtle deceit, made all the Earth to drink the Cup of her Abhominations.

Was the Pillar over-thrown?

No: but stood still stable, upon Mount SYON, with the Lamb; while all the Earth was, in GOD HIS justice, miscarried, after the Beast; receiving his Name, Number, or Character. And, so, ( Philomathes )

Where have you been so long a time?

Even where Satan's Throne was: and, even there, keeping the Name of JESUS, against the terror of Blood-shed.

To whom did your Light shine?

To the hundredth, forty, and four thousand sealed Virgines, Followers of the Lamb, by the Light shining before them, and seen of them, (while all the Earth, depryved of Eyes, to see, wondered, blyndlinges, after the Beast:) who, there-fore, rested not in the common pollution of the holy City, and Court of the Temple: but, stepped inwardes, to the Temple, where were, all-ways, Candle-sticks, and Olives.

Where did your principal Pastor sit?

At the Right Hand of the FATHER, yet filling all. For, in any other, this Title were a sacrilegious Vsurpation of CHRIST His Honor.

Who kept your Keys? who fed your Sheep?

Even those, who (when all, in common, had lost the Key of Knowledge; and, neither entered them-selves, nor suffered others, to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven) were still the true Lightes, and Olives, of the Temple: and, who, at length, by the true Key, have so opened up, and discovered Antichrist his Deceit, unto the long-blinded Worlde, as, the Beast is going, sensibly, to Destruction; though the characterized Company, should never so much gnaw their Tongues, for Sorrow.

If the Scrybes, and Pharisees, to whom CHRIST objected, the loss of the Key of Knowledge, and, shutting of the Kingdom of Heaven, had laid over, against Him, this your Man's Objection; and argued, there-upon, the failing of GOD His Church; and, consequently, of His many and great Promises: would He nor, soon, and easily, have answered, That, how-so-ever they had so fallen away, in common; yet GOD still had true, both Scrybes, and Israelites, even in the Bowels of that, commonly, corrupted Body?

Show some Church that you have built, &c.

A great many, that you have spilled. To your Man, (Philomathes) Destroying is Building, and Building is Destroying. Upon, and by that Doctrine, where-upon we build, and which we teach, hath the true Church been built, and instructed all-ways: as, by the right Rule of Examination, we have, a thousand times, evinced: and, he, who gathereth not with us, but scattereth.

Seeing, that without the Church of CHRIST, there can be no Salvation: and, that you do take to yourselves, the Title of the CHURCH, and deny the same unto the Church of Rome: I would gladly hear, ( Eubulus ) what you can answer, to this Question: and, how you can, so vnwynde yourself there-of, as not to fall, in someone of these Absurdities: namely, That either all our Fathers, many hundredth years a-go, were damned eternally; and, that, now, all-so, all Men, professing Popery, do perish: or, you must acknowledge, the Church of Rome, to have been, and, yet, still to be, the Church of CHRIST: in which case, your Churches must be heretical.

I will answer directly, and, even, categoricallie, to your Man's Question: and, even, so, clearly, free our selves, of all your Absurdities. But, I must, first, protest, for your patience, ( Eriphilus ) that you will not start at my first words; which, may, perhaps, appear strange, unto you: until I have cleared them; and, there-with, have unfolded the Deceit of your Man's Question.

I answer, then, and affirm, plainly, That all were damned eternally, who were not of our Company. For, there is but one Way, one Veritie, and one Lyfe. And, yet, it shall neither follow, here-upon, that, all, our Fathers, in Ages past, were damned: or, that, all, presently called Papists, and professing so, do perish. For, we are not so praesumptuouslie audacious Determiners; or, so uncharitable judgers of other Men, as your Men are of us; secluding, absolutely, all who die in our Communion, from Everlasting Lyfe. But, it is well, that, to them, all judgment is not committed. Neither, yet, here-upon, shall either the Church of Rome, be made the Church of CHRIST; or, our Churches, to be heretical Companies.

I will take to me patience, according to your Protestation, to attend the clearing of these so evil-consisting Assertions: all-be-it, I fear, that my patience, in this point, shall neither beget me EXPERIENCE, nor HOPE.

Who hardly conceive HOPE, may, haplie, fall to •… e ashamed: but, the equivocation of this word [ COMPANY ] where-in lieth your Man's Cavl •… lation; and, according vhere-unto, you are also misc •… led in the word [ CHURCH ] •… eeing cleared: that, where-of you despare, to find the Experience, or, con •… ine the Hope, shall be manifest, and certain, to any, who will perceive, and be persuaded.

First, then, I say, That all Christian Churches, are one Church; and, all Christian Companies, are one Company: united, at least, in one common Profession, of the NAME of CHRIST, and in one Baptism, being all under one, and the same general Ensign: and, so, within one and the same Catholic Church, (as the same is absolutely, all-beit not most properly, taken:) but, not all, truly, and properly, of it. For, within the Catholic CHURCH, are CHRIST, and Antichrist; PROTESTANTS, and Papists; Orthodox; and heretical Christians. Now, again, in this one, and general Church, and Company, there be many diverse Companies, (as in a great Army, are several and distinct Bandes, discerned by their proper, and particular Colours, and Cognizanses) according as they are divyded, each from other: and, that, either vnnecessarilie, by prydefull, and uncharitable Renting, of turbulent Men: or, necessarily, for keeping the clean, and health some partes of the Body, from the dangerous Contagion of affected parts, in that same common Body.

In a diseased natural Body, ( Eriphilus ) three distinct Considerations, offer them-selves to be observed: First, the Body in it self. Secondly, the Evil, or Disease in the Body. And, thirdlie, the Body affected with the Evil, or Disease. The health some Body, or considered in its own natural state, is one thing. The Body affected, or diseased, is (in that consideration) another. And, yet, the Disease is the third. The Evil, or Disease, all-be-it it be in the Body, yet is it not of the Body: but, the affected, or diseased part, is of the Body: not, in that it is affected, or diseased; but, in that it communicateth, yet (all-be-it weaklie) with the Lyfe, Sense, and Motion of the common Body. Agayne, we must put a difference, betwixt partes diseased, which, all-be-it heavilie affected, and having partes ready to die, yet are not past Physic, but may be cured, and quickened, by the Purgation of the Word, and Spirit; and, such as are quite dead, in the Evil, and are incurable, as now, no more part-taking of the common Lyfe, and Sense of the Body: as in an Hydropicke Body, some partes will be free, by lively Vigour repelling the vicious Humour; some, not all-to-gether free, but yet less affected: some, much affected, and ready to die; but, yet, in some measure, communicating with the common Lyfe, Sense, and Motion of the Body: some, lastly, in which the vicious Humour hath quite drowned, out of all Sense, and Motion.

Now, to clear this, by Accommodation: I say, That the BODIE, is the CATHOLICKE CHURCH, in which are all sorts of Christians: the Evil in this Body, but not of it, is Haeresie, Antichristi anisme, or Papalitie. Now, as a much different, and distinct consideration, was put betwixt the Evil, considered in it self, and the partes of the Body, affected there-with: and, again, amongst affected parts, a great difference betwixt those, who yet retain life, and Motion, and are cureable; and others, who are dead, or consumed by the Disease: So, ( Eriphilus ) you must not confound PAPISTES, and PAPALITIE; ANABAPTISTES, and ANABAPTISME; BROWNISTES, and BROWNISME. GOD forbid, that we judge so hardly, as, because PAPALITIE, ANABAPTISME, BROWNISME, &c. are damnable, that, there-fore, all who are called, or profess them-selves PAPISTES, ANABAPTISTES, BROWNISTES, are damned. Because, all-be-it affected, in some degrees, and even dangerouselie sick, of those Evils, yet they may have the life of the common Body; part-taking, thus, with the common Head, and be curable, by the Purgation of GOD. How many PAPISTES, ANABAPTISTES, BROWNISTES, are there, who, not knowing the deepness of Satan's deceit, (where-with some of their Seducers, and many all-so of their Companies, are infected deadly, and diverted from all true life) are, in simplicity of Heart, miscarried, with glistering and plausible pretences, of the Church of Zeal, of Purity, singular Holynesse, and such like; having yet, and, all-be-it some-what affected, holding the life of GOD, and true Foundation? And, so, in distinct considerations, are of one, and the same Company, with all good Christians, and true Professors: and, yet, are not of one, and the same Company. Because, all-be-it one, in the common Body, and some measure of the common Lyfe, yet separated each from other: for keeping the clean partes free, not from the others partes, but from the Evil, where-with they are affected; till GOD, by the Purgation of His Word, and Spirit cure them.

When we dispute against the Church of Rome, and deny her the Name, or Title of CHRIST's Church; we mean the Papalitie, not all Papists; Antichristianism, not all, who, in simplicity of Heart, are miscarried after it, (which no more justly may be excluded, from the account of Christians, than those two hundredth Men, accounted Traitors, who went with Absalom, from Jerusalem ) those who have received the Character of the Beast, (against whom, only, in all the Revelation, is wrath, ever denounced) not all such, as have received, but his Name, or his Number: as, handling this same Question, in my COMMENTARIE on that Book, I have, at more length, cleared. And, thus I hope, that, if you will, you may see, how it standeth true, that all were damned eternally, who were not of our Company: and; yet, not all who were, or are, called Papists, are damned. Neither maketh this the Church of Rome, to be the Church of CHRIST: because such Papists, as are saved, are not saved by the destroying, and consuming Gangrene, where-with they are affected, and which fighteth against the life of GOD: but by the remnant of the life of the Body, so far, as yet, prevailing in them, that the evil hath not gotten force, to suffocate, or extinguish it. In which respect, they were, and are, of our Company: as, in some measure, joined to, and holding still, the same Head: all-beit each from other separated, either by an unnecessary wound, of turbulent Men, or, by a needful disjunction: and (all-be-it not all in a-like measure of strength, and health) enjoying the Common Lyfe. For it is not divers Nominations, whether foolishly taken, or, at apperite imposed, that disjoyne the, so diverslie named; either from CHRIST, or from the Communion of His Body, and Lyfe. It is a gross Sophistication, in your Men, what is true of the Catholic Church, to conclude, that, properly, of any one part thereof: but, it is both gross and impudent, to conclude the Properties, and Privileges, of the Body, of the inherent and consuming Gangrene in the Body, but not of it.

By this your Discourse, ( Eubulus ) you make it an indifferent thing, what either Company, or Religion a Man be of. And, if one may attain Salvation, being Papist, Protestant, Anabaptist, Brownist, or what you will, so he profess CHRIST; to what ende make you so great a stir? And, why go you about, by all means, to have us converted unto you? Do you not see, that, while you would fain appear, to have Charity, you over-throw all Piety?

Because, ( Eriphilus ) in Cities, and Houses, infected with Plague, or Leprosy, Men may live, as who either may escape the Contagion, or be cleansed, or cool out of it: is there, there-fore, no regard to be had, what City, or House, a Man come into? Or, is all care, to keep the Cleane, from the Foule, superfluous? Or, is there no care to be had, of curing the Diseased, and cleansing away the Contagion? In such Companies, some, possibly, may live, and escape the Evil: but, the abode, is extreme dangerous, and Death more ready, than Lyfe.

Without the CATHOLICKE CHURCH, it is moste true, that there can be no Salvation, But, it were high praesumption, for the most pure worshipping Company, in all that common Body, to confine, absolutely, all Salvation, within their particular Society: how-so-ever, Salvation, there, must be moste assured, and less danger of Damnation. So, as, ( Eriphilus ) in this your Objection, is little, either Piety, or Charity, or common Sense.

Whether the Disease of the Body, be with us, or with you: whether it be Papalitie, or Lutheranism; I will not, now, more dispute, much less, determine. But, verily, ( Eubulus ) I cannot, but much allow your Discourse, which is no less solid, and true, than it is quick, and subtle. And I commend, much more, your charitable judgment in this case, than our Men's hard determinations of you. And, you have, exceeding well cleared, that this charitable Opinion, can, nor should, diminish nothing, of that Care, which lieth on all Men, to search, and embrace Truth. But, let us come to the rest of our Interrogatours.

To this Question, I have, all-ready, answered, more than once: and, it is the same, which, more than thrice, your Man hath not been ashamed to demand. For, from that Question, [ where were the servants of the LORD; that none of them durst speak a word▪ ] what have all his Interrogatours been, but a peevish repetition of one, and the same thing, in substance? Anie truly-lightened, and humbly, and sincerely seeking, might all-ways have found us out, under the common Ensign. And, if, perhaps, Error had so far prevailed, in common, as he could find, or hear, nothing, in all the holy City, and Court of the Temple, but the Dragon's mouth; yet Candle-sticks, and Olives, were never wanting in the Temple. And, even when all the Earth, committed Fornication, following the Beast, yet Virgines would have found, on Mount Zion a Song, which chaste Hearts might hear, and learn. To your Man's Rhetoric, (where-by, here, in a Poëticall license, he looseth his Tongue so liberallie, upon, LVTHER ) I disdain to answer: but, refer him to the Fish-Market, where-of his Aeloquence most smelleth. I come to examine his Logic. Because before LVTHER, and such others, as were in the same Age, and cause, with him: none did contest, so openly, or in so high a degree, against Antichrist; doeth it follow, there-upon, that none, at all, were before him? Why, then, were JOHN HVSSE, and HIEROME of PRAGVE, an hundredth years, ere then, cruelly, and barbarouslie, burnt; against public Faith, and assurance, given them? Why were all the Bo •… emian Churches, so sore vexed? Because the two Witnesses, Revel. xi. after the Spirit of Lyfe, had entered in them, stood more vigorouslie, and advowedlie, than before: and, because, by Divine Warrand, at that point of time, they were first bidden, Come up hither; their Enemies saw them, and were afraid. And, so, then, first, they were, publicklie, separated, from Antichrist his Contagion; and his Kingdom beginneth to take an open fall, (where-by the Holy Ghost, paynteth out, plainly, the time, and dealing, of LVTHER, and his Fellowes, in their State, Course, and Condition:) will it conclude, there-fore, that those Witnesses, were not till then? or, that they did not contest against Evils, before that time, all-be-it not in that degree, either of Strength, or Success? Had not the Beast, ere then, murdered them, even with applause of the Worlde? Yea, and before any advowed Contestation with him, or Violence from him, were they not long prophesying, in the Temple; all-be-it lurking, and in Sacke-clothe?

Because, in KING EDWARD'S days, the abolishing of Popery, and reparation of true Worship, were, first, by public Laws, established; will any Logic conclude, hereupon, That no Protestants were, before that? Where-fore, then, were so many martyred, before the days of KING EDWARD? What did your Men mean, by the barbarous raising of JOHN WICKLEFE, and his Disciples Bones, some Ages before that?

The Name of PROTESTANTS, (your Man would say) was never heard of, before LVTHER. But, I pray you, ( Philomathes ) were it good Logic, to conclude, That never a Christian was in the Worlde, before a Church was raised in Antiochia; because, till then, that name was not heard of? Will your Poet admit, that where Popery is not, by laws, established, there no Papists are at all? Popery, in-deed, did bear sway, for the space of a thousand years; for, so long time, the holy Ghost putteth betwixt the Dragon's imprisonment, at which point of time, Antichrist had his first open degrees of usurpation, to his loosing again: at which point, that Mischiefe was come to the top of all sacrilegious Impiety. But, it did not bear, all that time, a-like sway; neither, at any time, vniversallie, with everyone, how-soever it did commonly, with all: but had much different, and slowlie, and slielie coming-on, degrees, which your Poet confoundeth, most unskillfully: and, there-upon, no less chyldishlie, in different times, and cases, yet requireth one, and the same Manner; and, one, and the same Measure of Contestation. Which, in GOD'S wise Providence, was reserved to the challenging of the Beast, in the height of his impiety, for working of his fall. He was, first, a fraudulent spotted Pard; but, by time, became of the Dragon's Colour. He, first, had on his head, the name of Blasphemy; but, by time, all his body was full of the names of Blasphemy. He, first, craftily, laid stumbling Blocks, as Balaam; but, by time, the Whoore; horn up by him, like furious and bloody Jezebel, did, openly, over-throw all true Worship, erect Baal, and drink the blood of Sayncts. Finallie, ( Philomathes ) this your Men's Question, (where-by they so much stupefy the Simple) Where was the Church, so many hundredth years, &c? is, even, just, such a Question, as, if one, who had lain long diseased, convalescing, at length, should be asked, by one, who had never seen him, walking in perfect health; Where were you, before this time? To which foolish Demaund, as he might, very well, answer, That he, both had been, before, and, were the same self Man, which the Demaunder had seen before: all-though not in the same state, and condition.

So, we affirm, That the CHURCH, is still, the same CHURCH, which was, all those hundreds of years, where-in they would appear, to make Her a-missing: but, that She was long sick, by a long, slowlie, and, at first, insensiblie coming-on, Disease: which, at length, had become extreme dangerous, and deadly; but that, by the Cure of Her LORDE, She hath convalesced of it.

And, it were an extreamlie ridiculous Clayme, If, in a Body, which had been over-gone, with a great Disease; and, yet, by the power of the Noble partes, retaining Integrity, had so far recovered, that even the Dregges, and force of the Sickness, were fallen into the Legges, and Feet: If, there-fore, (I say) the swollen Legges, and Feet, should deny the rest of the Body, and take all Privilege there-of, to them-selves; because, they, for-sooth, kept still the Dregges of a long Disease.

As the CHURCH, at first, even in the Apostolic times, and, some while after, retaining PVRITIE, and Spiritual Health, was the CHURCH: So, afterwards, contracting Sickness, in all the growing Degrees thereof; yet was still the same CHURCH; all-be-it▪ not in the same good condition, of Health, and integrity, of all her Members: and, now, again, by the Purgation of of the WORD, and SPIRIT, convalescing, is yet, still the same CHURCH; all-be-it in a greater Degree of Health, than before.

And, still the CHURCH lived the same Lyfe of GOD, all-though not, all-ways, in a-like measure, and force. And, the Evil, or Disease, was still one, and the same, wasting the Lyfe of the CHURCH; all-be-it, not, at all times, in a-like force, or seen working; neither, yet, ever, over-going, vniversallie, every Member: howeso-ever, it, in common, over-went, and affected, all. For, it never, utterly, extinguished the Lyfe of GOD, in the CHURCH. If your Doctors would; or, if your seduced ones, could, understand this; all your Men's vain Objections, of the Church, should go in Smoke. But, of this matter, I have written so largelie, in my Defense of our Callinges, and, Discoverie of the Adversarie's Dotage; as, I weary, here, to multiply so many words unto you. And, this, which I have, now, more than once said, sufficiently answereth your Man's next Question.

The next Question, is:

In this Interrogatour, I cannot tell, whether he showeth him-self, more ignorant, or impudent: for, first, it is asked, as if nothing had been in the Body, but the Sore. If, besides the consuming Gangrene, there was ever a Body, where-in it was, and, though affected therewith, in common; yet, having Members, some lightly affected, some wholly free of that Evil; how shameless is your Man, in this his question? Next, what if the keeping of Scripture, had been even by the contagious Company? Is this either impossible, or a new thing, to the LORD? And, hath it not fore-going Examples, of the like marvelous dispensation, to the high commendation, of His Wisdom, and Providence; but, where-in the Keepers have nothing to glory of? Did not the Jews, who neither pleased GOD, & were Enemies to all Men; who crucified the LORD of Glory, and rejected Salvation; and, on whom the wrath of GOD was come, to the out-most; yet, by His wise disponing Providence, keep, so carefully, the Canon of holy Scripture; as, there-fore, they obtain the name of ( Christianorum Librarii) The Libraries of Christians? Made not GOD, the holy Vessels of the Temple, to be, carefully, kept, even in Babylon, till the time of Restitution? And, what wonder, then, if, in mystical Babylon, the Vessels, and Instruments, of the true Sanctuary, were long, both kept, and captived? And, may not the Conformitie of Case, so jumplie answering, make us, to advert, in a deep Heavenlie Wisdom; howe those former things, were, also, in GOD HIS Purpose, Stampe •… of things to come? Was not the Ark of GOD, kept, carefully, amongst the Philistines? Of what Mood hath your Man been, ( Philomathes ) when he moved, so ridiculous a Question?

Why should you so much marvel heereat, Eubulus? You did tell us, before, That their Poët, in this his Army of Interrogatoures, did more trust in the M •… ltitude of all, than in the particular Strength of any one. And, in such common Convocations, it is no wonder, though many be found, not well appointed, in their Geare. And, now, verily, I count it strange, that Men, professing great things, yet should not only, bewray a shameful Want, both of Light, and Sense, in laying, for the only Rules of Examining, and discerning GOD HIS Truth; What, or where, or what time, or by what Men, ought hath been maintained, and, moste commonly, holden: But, even not obscurelie tax the ALL-MIGHTIE, as leaving His Church, so weaklie warranded, of the Way of Truth.

We are, now, come to our last point, and, as we account, the moste choice Shaft, in all our Quyver. Our Man's last part, of his Discourse, upon this point of HAERETICKES, you reduced, ( Eubulus ) unto this Syllogism:

That was, in-deed, the Syllogism, where-in I compryzed this last part of your Man's poetical Discourse, upon HAERETICKES.

There-of, granting the Proposition, you denied the Assumption; and, have, accordingly, done your best, to show it false, in this part, that anything is affirmed by you, of your Churches, where-with the Promise of CHRIST, cannot consist. The other part of the Assumption, seemeth, yet, to stand strong: namely, that you are forced, to confess, that of the Church of Rome, which cannot be competent, but to the Church of CHRIST: and, there-fore, that the Conclusion, at least, for that part, is true: namely, That The Church of ROME, is the Church of CHRIST. This point, confessed, by you, of Rome; and, which can be competent, to none other Company, but to CHRIST His Church, is the lawful Ordination of Pastors; as you, yourself, did, before, very formallie, take up, in this Syllogism:

If I have well, and clearly, over-thrown the first parte of his Assumption, as you confess, ( Philomathes ) that I have done my best, to that effect: consider, with yourself, what Feet, the other parte there-of, can possibly find, for to stand upon. But, to try this: You acknowledged▪ That I proved no Praevaricatour, in taking up the sum of your Man his Argument: but, that, uprightly, I have brought it forth, in all the strength his words can give it.

I acknowledge it, in-deed; and, approve your Ingenuitie, in such points.

Then, will I, as clearly, unfold to you, the manifold Deceit there-of. For, first, his whole Argument, is a beguiling Sophism; à communi indiviso, as the Schools speak; to be a separate parte in the Communitie. And, to clear this, I will, orderlie, go thorough the partes of his Syllogism. You have to advert, the deceit of his Proposition: For, that lawful Ordination of Pastoures, is competent, to no Company, or Body, but to the Church of CHRIST; it is moste certain. For, the Ordayners of Pastoures, must, of necessity, have outward lawful Place, and power, in the visible CHURCH: in which, except they, both were, 〈◊〉 did, all-so, obtain, Place, and Power there-in, they •… uld be no lawful Ordayners at all. Now, because that Body, in common, in which all lawful Ordayners are, and must be, is, undoubtedly, the Church of CHRIST: there-upon, to insinuate, that all, or moste parte, of Ordayners, in this Body, are of it: and, though lawful Pastoures, yet, either true Pastoures, or Christians, it is a Sophisticall Deceit, à communi indiviso, as I have said. And, upon your Man's Proposition, thus, rightly understood, and, as it can only be admitted, to be true; when you have assumed, that, Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was lawful Ordination: yet, shall you never be able to conclude more, here-upon, than, That the Church of Rome, is in the CHURCH, and common Body. Where-by it was, (before visible Separation was made, from that Contagion, in, but not of the Body, by divine Commandment, to the Witnesses, to Come up, hither ) that Ordination given by the Church of ROME, was lawful Ordination. And, that, which, a little before, I answered to your Man's Question, ( Were all damned, aeternallie, Who were not of your Company? ) may clear to you the infolded Fallacie of this your Man's Proposition also. For, within the CATHOLICKE CHURCH, are CHRIST, and Antichrist; TRVETH, and Lies; WHEAT, and Chaff; PASTOVRS, and Wolves; the true TEMPLE, and the Abomination of Desolation, standing, all-so, ( in sanctis Ecclesiae loc •… ) in the holy places of the Church; the Body, and the consuming Gangrene.

Now, upon that, which is proper, and competent, to the whole Body; and, there-fore, rightly propounded of the Body, in common: and, which, all-so, is rightly assumed, not only of partes of the Body, (because, of that Body:) but, even, of the Apost •… me, or Gangrene, (because, in the Body,) to conclude, That the Gangrene were in the Body, it will hold: but, to conclude, there-of, That i •… is of the Body, it will not: much less, That it is the only, and self Body. Shall the Sore, in the Body, appropriate, there-fore, to it self; or, glory of the natural, and lively Actions of the Body, because it is in the Body; yea, and hath even over-gone the Body, in common? A man hath the Goare, in his Legge: which Legge, all-be-it, in an huge degree, festered; yet, walketh, and moveth, through the remnant of living, and moving power, which it yet retayneth. Now, shall the Goare, here, glory, that, by it, the Legge walketh, and moveth; where-as, it is, by it, that the Legge creapeleth, and halteth?

Lawfull Ordination, is a good, yea, and proper Action, of the Church of CHRIST: not of the Goare, or for the Goare, which is in the Church, and stayneth it: but, through the Lyfe, and Power of the Head, yet remaining in the Body, all-be-it affected, and having divers Members, even corrupted, with the Sore. Papalitie, is the Goare in the Church, but not of it: of which, to conclude, the proper Actions of the Church, because it hath place there-in; and there-upon, farther, to conclude, of it, the Title of the Church, and Body, whose, properly, the Actions are; it is but a fraudulent Illuding. Neither, because lawful Ordination, is a proper Action of the Church of CHRIST, will it, there-fore follow, That whoever give lawful Ordination, are of the Church, how-so-ever they must be in it. For, as I have, else-where, evinced, clearly, lawful Ordination, may be taken from a Wolf, and Thief, who, as yet, still retayneth outward Place, and Power of ordaining.

Thus, then, ( Philomathe •… ) if your Man's Proposition, be understood so, as, that, where ever lawful Ordination of Pastors were, that Body, (considered wholly) behooved to be the Church of CHRIST, I yield it to be •… true: but, if he, fraudfullie, would insinuate, That all with-in that Body, who gave Ordination, were the Church, or of the Church of CHRIST, then is his Proposition deceitfullie false; and he concludeth nothing.

Now, let us see his Assumption. ( But, the Protestants acknowledge, That Ordination, given by the Church of Rome, was Lawfull Ordination ) This Assumption, as it may be understood, in an •… e of two diverse Senses; so, I must, accordingly, answer it. For, first: if by the name of the Church of Rome, be understood, the common Body of the visible Church, all-be-it, at that time, affected, so far, even in common, with that Antichristian Sore, as by Fraud, and tyrannical Vsurpation, the Name or Number of the Beast, sitting there-in, were imposed: all-be-it numbers, there-in, never received his character; I grant his assumption 〈◊〉 be true: but, where-on, he shall conclude nothing, either against us: or for the Church of Rome, as we oppugn her. For, we never pleaded against the Body; neither have we ever separated our selves from the Body, as your Men would fain bind upon us: but, we plead against Papalitie, in the Body; and, have separated our selves, from the Sore, and such deadly contagious parts, as are infectiue, and incurable: offering, still, the purging Medicine of GOD HIS Word, for the cure, and Health, of all affected Members, who will admit Physic; and, for destroying of the annoying, and eating Evil: praying GOD, heartily, for the perfect convalescing of the whole Body. And, the Sore, is still more than ridiculous to oppone, for defense of it self, the actions, or properties, of the Body, where-in it is: for, with-in that Body, even affected, in common, and bearing the name or number of the Beast, were, always, numbers, of not only lawful, but, also, true Pastors, to give Ordination. For, a sick Body, is still a true, and living Body: but, the Sickness, in it, is no part of it, and is Enemy to the Lyfe there-of. Next, again, if, by the name of the Church of ROME, your Poet understand, even the Papalitie, or characterized Papists: that is, the incurable parts, deadly festered with the Sore, (which only we impugn:) then, all-be-it not absolutely, yet, in some respect, we grant, the Ordination, even so given, to have been lawful: namely, so long as they retained outward Place, and Power of Ordination; before Antichrist's full detection, and separation of the revived Witnesses, from the contagious Company. Because, albe-it the Ordayners were Wolves, and Thieues, yet they were not, in common, known to be so: but, retained still, with all, in common, the reputation, if not of true, yet, of lawful Pastors. In which case, the receiving of Ordination, from them, was nothing praejudiciall to the sincere Receiver of the same, who had not, as yet, espied them to be Traitors. And, this Lawfulnesse was not, because it was ministered by the Sore, or deadly festered parts in the Body: but, because those festered parts were still in the Body of the Church, and, in common, all-so, esteemed to be of it: and, all-be-it dead, incurable, and contagious, yet were not cut off, outwardly, from the Body: thus, retaining, still, the account of Members; all-be-it, in effect, they were none, but a deadly consuming Evil.

If your Poet, poor Man, had either understood, or considered, what, I think, I have, plainly, laid before you: if he had not been, first, a very shallowe Ignorant, and unstable PROTESTANT; and, now, (I warrand you) no profound PAPIST: howe could this have, so much, stupefied him, and casten him into such a Musing; that, in the REFORMATION of the CHURCH, we made no question, to receive, and use, the MINISTRIE, of PRIESTES, ordained by the CHURCH, which he calleth ROMANE?

For, as the Body, all-be-it affected, yet was the Body: So, the Calling of the MINISTERS therein, all-be-it taynted, and corrupted, in common, yet, was a CALLING; and, that, according unto the state, and time, lawful.

And, your Poet his Muzing, hath, here-in, so marred his Memory; that, forgetting what they moste object against us; he yieldeth us, here-by, that our PASTOVRES, and REFORMERS, had an ordinary Vocation.

Now, as I have opened, the implied Deceit, of your Poet his Proposition, and Assumption, you may see, ( Philomathes ) what Conclusion he can be able to build thereupon; either for the Church of ROME, not-withstanding any Confession of ours; or, yet, against us.

And, this, for-sooth, is the Argument, where-of all your Men, so much glory, as, they do entitle it, their INVINCIBLE ARGUMENT: and, where-in your Poet hath so much pleased him-self, that he hath reserved it, for his last Blowe: and, falleth, even for to muze, what we can be able to answer there-unto: and, is so secure, of getting none Answer from us, as, he is content, to set this, to all his Disciples, for a term of adhering to the Romish Faith: till we, for-sooth, find out an Aunswere there-unto. But, besides that little, which I have, here, said, as I think, I have answered there-unto, so at length, and plainly, in my Defense of our Callinges, and Epistle, to a Recusant, (where, of purpose, this point is handled) as, I need not, here, at this time, insist farther there-in. I refer you, to those TREATISES, for a more distinct Light, and fuller Resolution here-in. Which, if you shall read, with care, and that Ingenuitie, which I conceive to be in you; it may fall, that your Poet repent him, of praefixing you so short a time, to remain a Romanist.

I will, GOD willing, read them, both carefully, and uprightly. And, seeing that in them, as you say, this point of matter, is purposely handled; I will not urge you to speak more there-of, at this time. For, even in the little, which you have said, you have given me some-what more, to muze upon, than I expected: and, which will stir me, to search what, more accuratelie, here-of, you have, else-where, written.

I hope, ( Philomathes ) you shall find yourself so satisfied, in this, which your Men esteem, and call, their Invincible Argument, by reading those TREATISES; and, shall find it, in them, so solidlie answered, as though your Poet should not only fall from his Muses, to muzing: but, even, from Muzing, should fall to Madness; yet shall he never be able, to make there-unto any sound Replye. As for his Counsel, which, upon vain Confidence of this his Argument, he giveth, of cleaving to the Romish Faith; let them follow it, whom GOD hath not, and upon more •… ure Groundes, advysed better.

If he were able to prove, either, That the Doctrine, preached by his Apostle, AUGUSTINE, was the true, and uncorrupted FAYTH of CHRIST; or, that, since AUGUSTINE'S time, it had not received great Increase of Corruption; he might the better bind us to his Counsel. But, bare Personal Succession, without Evidence of the principal, and moste proper Succession, will never conclude that. And, your Poet proveth, but still like him-self, and closeth up his Ryme, ridiculouslie, in bringing it.

N OW, ( Philomathes ) I think, you see, howe, at your Intreatie, Eubulus hath, clearly, answered, unto all your Man's Questions: where-of, at the beginning, you praesumed so much, as, that there were some of them, to which, very hardly, he would find an Aunswere.

Verilie, ( Philadelphus ) I cannot deny, but that I rest greatly Debtor, both to you, and to Eubulus, for this Days Communication: and, that, so cowardlie, at mine Intreatie, you were induced there-unto: where-in, I think, the time hath been so well spent, as (if it may not be unpleasant unto him) it may make me to be, often, here-after, a more than troublesome, Interrupter of Eubulus better Thoughtes.

As for your Aunsweres, I will not, so rashlie, determine, what to think: but, truly, I must, uprightly, confess, that I have heard more, than I expected: which, stirreth me, to covet yet more; and, will make me, carefully, to catch all Occasions, to breed Eubulus farther Molestation.

Your honest Heart, ( Philomathes ) will make me, all-ways, glad, and ready to give you Contentment, in ought I can: For, other-ways, truly, I, utterly, abhor all contentious Disputation; and, I account, all, both Speach, and Paper, but badlie employed, which is spent, upon any of such a Disposition.

My Counsel, unto you, and, out of upright Love, is; As GOD hath given you this, that you, both hear, and read, calmlie, and carefully: So, that you be, both earnest, and instant, in all humble, and fervent Prayer, unto GOD, for the Direction of HIS Holy Spirit, in the right way of HIS Fear; which is the only Way, to true Illumination: and, not heat of Contention, Bitterness, Pryde, Self-love, and Singularitie; which: (in GOD His justice, Who resisteth the Prowde, and giveth Grace unto the Humble) but involue Men, still, more and more, in Blyndnesse, and induration of Heart.

I give you hearty Thanks, all-so, for this your good, and loving Counsel: which, by GOD His Grace, I shall be myndfull of, and labor to follow. And, now, unto that Grace of GOD, we must, even heartily, commend you: For, both the declining time of the Day, and our Effayres, do call us another way.

The BLESSING of GOD, accompany you, in all your ways: and, direct you, in the right Path of SALVATION.

AND, have we not, think you, ( Eriphilus ) spent, both pleasantlie, and profitably, a piece of time? Trust me, I cannot, but like well of this Eubulus, his discreet Disposition: though but even now first acquainted with him. And, hath he not, think you, said much more, in the points, which we have passed, both against us, and for them-selves, than we could have imagined, that, possibly, they might have brought? So, as, verily, the longer, the more, I am induced, to think, and see, that it is a good, yea, a necessary thing, for Christians, to be humbly, and prudentlie careful; in proving, and trying, what they do hold, in Matters of Faith; where-in Men stand, in no less hazard, than of missing of, or hitting on, the right Way of Salvation.

I am so far from your Temper, in this matter, ( Philomathes ) as, by the plain contrary, I think, we have badlie bestowed this Day: where-in, with great indignation of Heart, I have been forced, to hear the Holy Church, disdaynfullie mocked, and bitterlie railed upon. So, as I, both blame myself greatly, for casting in any such purpose, and you, all-so, for so curiouslie insisting there-in. And, by this Days experience, I perceive, well, how just reason our Holy Fathers have, to interdict Catholics, absolutely, of all; either hearing of these Heretics, or conference with them, or reading of their Books: and, that how-so-ever, some cool-minded Men, cannot brook it, there is great reason, of ridding away, and dispatching, out of the Worlde, even by all means, of such pestilent and pernicious Men: who, except they be quite razed out, will not fail, to subvert the whole state of the World. For, I see, ( Philomathes ) that, by your giving Eare, to their charming Speaches, you are, all-ready, put in the Stayes; yea, half over-turned. For me, when-so-ever I hear ought of them, to which I cannot make Aunswere; I, then, make the Sign of the Cross, over my Person; and, I turn mine Heart, and Ears, another way. So, as, let them speak, write, or preach, what they please, (how true, plain, and infallible, so-ever, it appear;) yet, I determine, with myself, That it is false: and, I rest, upon the Authority of holy Church; whose Doctrine, I count it sin, once to put in question.

Agaynst an undoubted Light, and clearly convincing Truth, it were, in-deed, high sin, once to deliberate: much more, curiouslie, or carnallie, to make question. But, for attaining to Knowledge, and Resolution, in doubtful Matters; to inquire humbly, soberlie, and sincerely; we not only well may, but, all-so, are, of duty, holden. And, who, without Light, are carried, upon any Man's Credite, in Matters of Salvation; I think, they more resemble senseless Blocks, than wise Christians.

As for your other Opinion, (of ridding away, out of the Worlde, by what-so-ever means, those you call Haeretickes ) I am sorry to hear it of you: and, so much the more, if you have uttered it, not only out of Passion; but, all-so, out of a settled judgment. And, to speak freely to you, in this; I think, this Doctrine, in many of our Men, bewrayeth, evidently, what Spirit they are of. And, for me, I not only, can account them, no Christians; but, even, no Men at all; or, worthy of human Society: who, under any Praetext of Zeal, do shake all Bandes of Piety, and Civility.

And, it will be, assuredly, seen, ( Eriphilus ) that this Tragicall, and bloody Wisdom, (where-by Men, now, are begun to think, that the Catholic Faith, must be maintained) shall be the Mean, to hasten the Ruin of the Romish Church: while all the Worlde shall be wakened, by their own Perill, and clear Sight, of such monstrous Inhumanitie, to destroy the Destroyers of the Earth.

YOU did tell me, very rightly, at our first Discoverie of these two Gentle-men, that, all-be-it, both of them Papists; yet, they were, of a much contrary Disposition: for, so we have, in-deed, tried them. I love this Philomathes his Towardnesse; and, I hope well of him. The other's Waywardnesse, and bitter Disposition, I dislyke as far.

You remember, how, even before our encountering of them, I was wishing you, to make some Answer to these Questions, of this Ballader: and, Theriomachus was, all-so, of my judgment. Now, though you refused to do so; yet, let me entreat you, thus far, as to write, but a short Record, of this our Days Conference.

Though, even that piece of Paynes, were, in my Opinion, but idle, and unprofitable; yet, it is too small a matter, where-of to refuse you: whom, for many respects, I am holden, both to love, and honor. For, other-ways, to write, either at length, or of purpose, any Answer, to such things, (so often, and, so learnedl •… e, confuted) I neither think it expedient, for any, so •… o bus •… e him-self; and, for me, in so manifold Distractions, which, you know, I have, and, a daily Employment, in the matters of my Calling; together, with such imbecility of Body, as cannot endure great Paynes; I were even greatly blame-worthy, so to waste, either Tyme, or Travel. There-fore, hence-forth, let no Man put me to business. GOD grant, we may earnestly study, to our own Sanctification; and, according to that great Dispensation committed unto us, we may labor to work the same, carefully, in the Heartes of others: and, not to delight in contention of Disputations; about Questions, which but ingender Stryfe; and, do more feast idle Humours, than they edify Godly Souls.