Ten Counter-Demands Propounded to those of the Separation

Αντεροτεματα Thomae Dra • i.

TEN COVNTERDEMAVNDS PROpounded to those of the Separation, (or English Donatists) to be directly, and distinctly answered.

1. W Hether, that their rent, Schism, and Separation from the Church and Congregations of England, can (in any probability) be pleasing unto God, seeing, it hath had such unhappy beginnings, the a first founder of it, coming to Judas his shameful and fearful ende, hanging himself: and the b second totally recanting it, and reioyning himself to our Church, as diverse of their proselytes do daily: seeing also it hath had so small increases, and so many dismal and fatal events, and divisions: one side excommunicating the other, some of them turning Anabaptists, and c others dying and distracted, by reason of irresolution.

2. Whether, that the quintessenced profession, Religion and discipline of these Nouations and Innouators, as it standeth in opposition to the Church of England, and the rest of the reformed Churches) can be of God, or, have any approbation from God, seeing that it hath no virtue, power and efficacy in it (as the Gospel preached in our English assemblies by God's blessing abundantly hath) to win, convert, and draw unto their party and profession, Atheists, Pap • sts, Heretics, rude, profane and ignorant people: The Apostles, Evangelists, and there holy successors, converted all sorts unto God, but these refined reformers, only seduce the sound, and pervert and estrange from us, those, that are otherwise well affected, and of some understanding and make them twofold more refractary then themselves.

3. Whether that (in the very separatists conscience) our reformed assemblies, (wherein the Gospel of Christ is sincerely preached and professed, and the Sacraments duly and rightly administered) are worse then the Jews Synagogues, in which notwithstanding Christ his Apostles preached; & our Ministers, worse then the Scribes and Pharisees, that sat in Moses Chair, when Christ commandeth the people to hear, and observe and do, whatsoever (according to Moses Law) they did bid them observe. Wherefore (to reason à minore ad maius) if our Lord Jesus, his Disciples, and the people did not separate from their Synagogues and assemblies, that were in faith and manners far more defective then ours are, much less ought they to separate from our Church and assemblies, wherein, all the grounds of Christian Religion are soundly held, and professed.

4. Whether that those great multitudes of people (though hitherto wanting the pretended Church-constitution of the Separatists) that even fasting heard our Lord Jesus preach, and professed themselves his Disciples, (albeit many of them were drawn, not by doctrine but by miracles, report, & with a desire to be fed) can with any reason be denied to be members of the visible Church, and whither those three thousands which blessed Peter at one Sermon converted (for they were baptized, continued in the Apostles doctrine, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayers.) were not, before that Presbyters and Deacons were chosen, true members of a visible Church, and this cannot be refuted, and why are not our Church assemblies in England, (much more grounded in the truth) &c. a true visible Church? and then with what conscience, do, or can these Separatists sequester and rent themselves from them?

5. Whether, (to ascend no higher, and nearer the Apostles to me as I might) that in Constantine's the first Christian Emperors time, and ever since unto M ^r . John Calvin's days, for the space of some thirteen hundred years, there was no Christian Churches in Asia, Afric, Europe, because they had the same outward constitution formal State, Bishops, Arch-bishops, Metropolitans, & Church-government (for substance and substance of doctrine) that our English Church hath, and retaineth. And if those were true visible Churches, why are not ours (also?)

6. Whether, that the reformed Churches in the lower, and higher Germany, in France, the Church of Geneva &c. (that come nearer to their constitution and discipline, then ours do in England,) be true visible Churches, or no? if they be such, why then do they not adjoin themselves to some of them, but distaste them as much as they do ours? And why do they not in judgment assent unto any or all of those reformed Churches, that with a joint consent (as may appear by the harmony of Confession) acknowledge the Church of England to be a true visible Church, and give unto it the right-hand of fellowship? how dare they refuse such a cloud of witnesses? will these 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 put out all their eyes? is there no Church in the world but their Platonicall Idea?

7. How can the Church, or, Church-assemblies of England, be false, Antichristian, bastardized, wherein the Gospel, is so soundly and solemnly and substantially taught and professed, and the Sacraments, so rightly administered and received, whose Bible translations, (specially the last English translation done by his Majesty command) are so pure, that the very Separatists rest in them: wherein are so many thousands, yea hundred thousands of true Converts and orthodox Christians, that hath bred and brought forth so many excellent and renowned Martyrs, who have sealed the truth of our religion with their blood, and died members of the protestant Churches; wherein so many Christian exiles are comfortably harboured, wherein so many sound, religious and learned Pastors, Doctors, Preachers, as (for proportion) no Country in the world can afford the like; and by whose doctrine, writings, disputes, (not to speak of the Magistrates sword) the Romish Ierico hath been more shaken, and the second beast the Antichrist, more fatally wounded, then by any national Church whatsoever: and which Church, and the members thereof, have been so wonderfully blessed and protected, and so strangely delivered from the rage, tumults, designs, treasons, conspiracies of the Romish Antichrist and all his adherents: and in which Churches (as one of the princiall Separatists I. R. in his admonition ad lectorem, in his own name and in the name of his faction, lately prefixed before the third book of M. Robert Parker, de politia ecclesi. pag. 368. confesseth, that the grace of God by the Gospel, in respect of the chief heads of true Christian faith, by diverse of the faithful preached, doth so abound, that there are very many godly and holy men in these assemblies, both of Reformitants and Conformitants, which they acknowledge for brethren in Christ &c. We have (by their own confession) sound faith, and holiness, why then do they or how dare they sunder and rent themselves from such a Church, and why will they for accidents and circumstances, deny and renounce the substance of a Church? And if they (upon bettercōsideration) estcēc us brethren, with what warrant cā they separate from holy brethren in Christ, is it not good and pleasant for to see brethren to dwell together in unity? Did not the converts in S. Peters days continue daily with one accord in the Temple &c. And why do not our Separatists who would be accounted converted Saints, imitate them, must we leave and forsake a goodly City, for the weakness of the walls?

8. How can the formal state (as they call it) of the Provincial, Diocesan, Cathedral & Parishonal Churches of England, and the regiment thereof, be unlawful, papal, Antichristian? And how do, or, can the Laws of the land, and Ecclesiastical Cannons confirm it? seeing that the name, calling & office of B B: whether we respect ordination of ministers or power of jurisdiction, is (as hath ben, & will be proved) for substance expressed in diverse places of the New Testament; seeing, it hath had a continual succession from the Apostles time to this day, as all ancient Fathers and Counsels acknowledge: and seeing that (at least) this formal estate of Diocesan, Parishonal and Cathedral Churches, hath been in use, long before Antichrist was hatched, for the Pope was not Antichrist before he had gotten the Title of universal Bishop, nor complete until he had gotten into his hands both swords, that is, both Civil and Ecclesiastical Dominion: Doth not every Bishop amongst us, every Pastor and ecclesiastical officer, abjure the Prpes usurped supremacy? Do not our statutes, and Cannons directly make againg papistry and Idolafry? What will Satan expel Satan, and will the members of Antichrist fight against Antichrist? And admit all be, as you pretend, do we not (at least) kill Antichrist with his own sword and weapons?

9. Whether, any new laws can, or ought to be enacted, or any further reformation made without the Christian Princes or Magistrates consent, or ever in a well ordered Church hath been enacted, or made and whether, they have done well, to separate without the Kings Majesty's leave and license, and consent of the state?

10. Whether, it were not the separatists best course, to return to God's true Church and people, from which (upon some concealed hard dealing) they have made an unlawful rent, and therein to confer with the best learned, and if still their consciences be somewhat tender, to supplicate for some favor and liberty, or if they will not take this course, whether it were not good for them, for the avoiding of scandal, and in expectance of some prosperous success, by the permission of our noble King, and honorable Counsel to remove into Virginia, and make a plantation there, in hope to convert infidels to Christianity?