A Reply to an Answer Made by Doctor Whitgift

An answer to the whole Epistle to the Church.

WHat causes either pulled you forward / or thrust you backward / to write / or not to write / and how in this dispute / with yourself / in the end you were resolved to write in this sort / I leave it unto the judgment of the Lord / who only knoweth the secretes of the heart / and will in his good time vnseale them. But if there be any place of conjecture / the hatred of contention / which you set down / as the first and principal cause / that beat you back from writing / might well have ben put / as the last and least / or rather none at all. For if peace had been so precious unto you (as you pretend) you would not have brought so many hard words / bitter reproaches / enemylike speeches (as it were sticks and coals) to double / and treble / the heat of contention. If the sharpness of the Admonition misliked you / and you think they outreached in some vehemency of words / how could you more effectually have confuted that / then to have in a quiet and mild spirit set them in the way / which (in your opinion) had left it? now in words condenming it / and approving it in your deeds / I will not say / that you do not so much mislike this sharpness / as you are sory / that you are prevented / and are not the first in it: But this I may well say unto you / which he said: Quid verba audiam, cum facta videam? what should I hear words / when I see the deeds? In the fourth reason / whereby you were discouraged to write / if by backbiters / and unlearned tongs / viperous kind of men / not able to judge of controversies / carried away with affections / and blind zeal into diverse sinister judgments / and erroneous opinions / you mean all those / that think not as you do in these matters: I answer for myself / and for as many as I know of them / that they are they / which first desire (so it be truly) to hear / and speak • all good of you. But if that be not / through your perseverance / in the maintenance of the corruptions of this church (which you should help to purge) then the same are they / that desire / that both the evil which you have done / and that which you have yet in your heart to do / may be known / to the less discredit of the truth and sincerity / which you / with such might and main do strive against. Touching our unlearned tongues / we had rather a great deal / they were unlearned / then they should be as theirs / * which have taught their tunges to speak falsely. And how unlearned so ever you would make the world believe / that we / and our tunges be / I hope (through the goodness of God / ) they shall be learned enough / to defend the truth / against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with. If those be the * generation of Christ / which you call viperous kind of men: know you that you have not opened your mouth against earth / but you have set it against heaven / & for all indifferent judgment / it will easily perceive / that you are as far from the spirit of * John the Baptist / as you are nere to his manner of speech. Which you use / whether it be affection / or blind zeal / that we follow / and are driven by / it will then appear / when the reasons of both sides / being laid out / shall be weighed indifferently. Whereas you say / that your duty towards God / and the Queen her majesty / moved you to take this labor in hand / it will fall out / upon the discourse / that / as you have not served the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours / so have you done nothing less / then any godly duty / which you owe unto her Majesty: so / that the best that can be thought of you herein / is / that wherein an evil matter / you could yield no duty / yet now you have done that / which you thought a duty / which iudgeinent / we will so long keep of you / until you shall by oppugning of a known truth / declare the contrary / which we hope will not be. What truth it is / that we impugn / and you defend / let it in the name of God appear / by our several proofs and answers of both sides. And / as for the slanderous surmises / whereby in your third and last consideration / you set the Papists of the one side of us / and the Anabaptists of the other / and us in the midst / reaching out our hands (as it were) to them both: first it ought not to be strange unto us miserable sinners / seeing that the Lord him self / without all sin / was placed in the midst of two grievous malefactors / as though he had been worse / then they both. Then for answer of those slanderous speeches / I will refer the Reader to those places / where these general charges / are given out / in more particular manner.

An answer to that which is called a brief examination of the reasons used in the Admonition to the Parliament.

IF the scriptures had been applied to the maintenance of the abomination of the mass / and some other of the grossest of antichristianitie / you could have said no more / nor used vehementer speech then this / that they are most intolerably abused / and unlearnedly applied. And then where is charity / which covereth the multitude of faults / especially in brethren / when you do not only not cover them / but also take away their garments / whereby they are covered. I will not deny / but that there be some few places quoted / which might have been spared / but there are a great number / which (M. Doctor) tosseth & throweth away so lightly / which he shall perceive to sit nearer him / then he is / or at the least someth to be aware of. And to bring to pass that y ^• quotations in the margent might appear to the reader more absurd / M. Doctor hath besides the advantage which he taketh of the faults of the Printer / used two unlawful practisies especially. Wherof the one is / that where as the admonition doth quote the scripture / not only to prove the matters which it handleth / but sometimes also to note the place from whence the phrase of speech is taken. M. Doctor doth go about to make his reader believe / that those places which be alleged for proof of the phrase / are quoted for proof of the matter. The other practice is / that where the Admonition (for the shortness which it promiseth / and was necessary in that case) could not apply the places / M. Doctor presuming too much of the ignorance of his reader / thought he might make him believe / that anything else was meant by those places / then that which they meant in deed / and for which they were alleged. And where you say the quotations are only to delude such. &c. I see you hold it no fault in yourself / which you condemn so precisely in others / that is / to judge before the time / to sit in the conscience / to affirm definitely of their thoughts / contrary to their own protestation. But seeing you lift up our imperfections so high / and set them as it were upon a stage for all men to be looked of / to the discredit of the truth which we do maintain: You shall not think much / if your poverty be pointed unto / in those things wherein you would carry so great countenance of store. For the arguments them selves / they shall be seen what they be in their places / so shall also that be answered / which M. Doctor bringeth here for y ^e Confutation / being straightway after / & in sundry other places repeated in this book. I will touche that which is not repeated / & that is / that M. Doctor maketh it an indifferent thing / for men / & women to receive y ^e supper of the Lord clothed / or naked. Thys savoreth strongly of the sect of y ^e Adamites.

S. Paul which commendeth the preservation of godliness and peace / unto the civil magistrate / doth also commend unto him the prouyding / that honesty be kept / and M. Doctor maketh it an indifferent thing / to come either naked / or clothed unto the Lord's table: verily there is small honesty in this. And if the heathē which knew not god / did account it a filthy thing for a stage player to come upon the stage without a sloppe / how much more filthy is it / for a Christian / to come naked unto the Lord's table? and the contrary thereof / is necessarily collected of the scripture / notwithstanding that M. Doctor saith otherwise. They which have heard M. Doctor read in the schools can tell / that he being there amongst learned men / never used to reduce the contrary arguments of the adversaries / to the places of the fallacions / and yet that was the fittest place for him to have shown his knowledge in / because there they should have been best understood: now that he professeth him self to be a doctor of the people / which because they have not learned these things / cannot understand them / he dasheth out his Logic. What may be probably gathered hereof / I leave to every man's consideration: this is certain / that circumstances of place and persons / which he so often urgeth / are not well observed of him / when Logike speaketh in the church / and is mute in the schools: when things are handled more learnedly amongst the people / and more popularly amongst the learned. It is truly said / cakon esti to calon, en ti me kairoutiche. A good thing is evil / when it cometh out of season. But to observe what Art here is shown / I would gladly know what place of the fall actions / either an argument ab authoritate negative is / or of negatives by comparison. Aristotle setting forth places / whereunto all fallacions may be called / maketh no mention of these / and if these were fallacions / and were such as he imagineth them / they should be referred unto the former place / ab eo quod est secundum quid, ad id quod est simpliciter, for these reasons / the scripture hath it not / therefore it ought not to be / or the minister was known by doctrine / therefore by doctrine only / and not by apparel: If I say they be fallacions / they be referred unto that place / and whether they be or no / and also how corruptly / and otherwise then is meant they be gathered / it shall afterward appear. In the mean season in a small matter / here is a great fault / not only to invent new places / but of one place to make three / and may as well make a thousand.

And to the ende the pithe and weight of M. Doctors arguments may be the better seen / I will likewise give the reader a say of them / noting the places of the fallacions / whereunto they be referred. Which I do against my will / and compelled / for that master Doctor to discredit the truth / would make his reader believe / that those which think not as he doth in these matters / are not only unlearned / but contenurers of all good learning. In deed there is no great learning in these final things / & they are of that sort / which although it be a great shame not to know / yet it is no great commendation to have knowledge of them.

In the 40. page he reasoneth thus. The ministers must learn / therefore they must learn Catechisms: which is a fallaction of the consequent. For although he that must learn a Catechism / must learn: yet it followeth not / that whosoever must learn / must by and by learn a Catechism.

In the. 55. page he reasoneth / that for so much as the civil magistrate may appoint some kind of apparel / therefore he may appoint any / and so the popish apparel. Which is / ab eo quod est secundum quid, ad id quod est simpliciter: of which sort he hath divers others. As women may baptize / and preach / because such a one / and such a one did. And the ministers execute civil government / because Elias / and Samuel did.

In the. 69. page he saith. Cyprian (speaking of the office of an archbishop) which is a manifest petition of the principle. For it being that which should have been proved / M. Doctor taketh it for granted. And in diverse places speaking of the archbishop / he goeth about to deceive his reader with the fallation of the aequiuocation, or diverse significatiō of the word. For whatsoever he findeth said of archbishop & bishop in times past / he bringeth to establish our archbishops and bishops: when notwithstanding those in times past / were much different from ours / and are not of that kind / as shall appear afterward.

In the. 239. page he reasoneth / that for so much as those which wear the apparel / do edify / therefore they edify by reason of the apparel / which is to make that the cause / which is not / but only cometh with the cause.

In the. 240. page he reasoneth thus / that the surplice. &c. be notes / and notes of good ministers / therefore they be good notes of ministers / which is a fallacion of compositiō / when a man thinketh that whatsoever is said of a thing by it self / may be said of it when it is joined with another.

In the. 149. page he reasoneth thus / those which authorised the book of Common prayer / were studious of peace / & building the church / therefore those which find fault with it / are pullers down of the church / and disturbers of the peace / which is a fallacion of the Accident, when a man thinketh that everything which is verified of the Subject, may be likewise verified of that which is annexed unto it. The further confutation of which arguments I refer unto their places.

There be diverse other which he hath / which are so far from just conclusions / as they have not so much as any color of likelihood of argument / which I cannot tell where to lodge / unless I put them in the common Inn / which is that / which is called the ignorance of the Elench. as in the. 69. page / when he concludeth thus / that Cyprian speaketh not of the bishop of Rome / ergo he speaketh of an archbishop.

And in the. 71. page. There must be superioures / ergo, one minister must be superior unto another. There must be degrees / therefore there must be one archbishop over a province.

And in the. 73. there was one over every congregation / therefore there was one over all the ministers in the province. These / and a number like unto these / M. Doctor hath scattered throughout his boke / which as Nero said of his master Senecas works / cleave together like sand / & thus let it be seen / whose arguments are most justly concluded / those of y ^e admonition / or these of M. Doctors.

An answer to the exhortation to the eyuill Magistrates.

IT is more thē I thought could have happened unto you / once to admit into your mind / this opinion of Anabaptism of your brethren / which have always had it in as great detestatiō as yourself / preached against it / as much as yourself / hated of the followers & favorers of it / as much as yourself. And it is yet more strange / that you have not doubted / to give out such slanderous reports of them / but dare to present such accusations / to the holy and sacred seat of justice / & thereby (so much as in you lieth) to corrupt it / & to call for the sword upon the innocent / (which is given for their maintenance and safety) that / as it is a boldness intolerable / so could I hardly have thought / that it could have fallen into any / that had carried but the countenance and name of a professor of the gospel / much les of a doctor of dyuinitie. Before you will join with us in this cause / you will place us / whether we will or no / in the campe of the Anabaptists / to the ende you might thereby / both withdraw all from aiding us / which are godly minded / as for y ^e you fearing (as it seemeth) the insufficiency of your pen / might have the sword / to supply your want other ways. And if we be found in their campe / or be such disturbers of the quiet estate of the church / defacers of such as be in authority / maintayners of licenciousnes and lewd lybertie (as you do seme to charge us with) we refuse not to go under those punishments / that some of that wicked sect received / for just recompense of their demerits. You say you will not accuse any / I know it is for want of no good will / that you do not accuse them / of whose condemnation and extreme punishment / we might be sure / if your hand were as strong as your heart. But you suspect the authors of the admonition / and their fautors. * Charity is not suspicious. Let us therefore see / whether there be just matter to bear out / and to uphold this suspicion. You will bear men in hand / that if we be not already full Anabaptists / yet we are in the way thither / the footsteps whereby you trace us / must be considered.

The Reply unto the Answer of the Preface.

IT may be said unto you / that which Aristotle said of a certain Philosopher / that he knew not his own voice. For if that you had remembered / that which you do so often promise / that you will not answer words / but matter / y ^e Printer should not have gained so much / men should not have bestowed so much money of a thing not of so great value / nor that (which is more) the world should not be burdened with unprofitable writings. For how often tunninges out have you / to draw the authors of the Admonition into hatred / by inucighing bitterly against their vnlearnednes / maliciousness? &c. (as it pleaseth you to term it) so that if there were any excess of speech in them / you have paid it again with measure pressed down / & running over. How often charge you them with pride / & arrogancy / men that confess once or twice of them selves / their want of skill / and which profess nothing of them selves / but only a bare and naked knowledge of the truth / which may be done with modesty / even of them which have no learning. And yet those that know them / know that they are neither void of the knowledge of the tongues / nor of the liberal Arts / albeit they do not make so many words of it as you. * Solomon saith / that he that is despised / and hath but one servant / is better / then he which magnifyeth and setteth out him self / and yet wanteth bread. Whereby he meaneth that the man / that hath but a little / and carrieth his countenance accordingly / is much more to be esteemed / then he which beareth a great port / and hath not to support it. These brethren have not undertaken the knowledge of Logike / Philosophy / and other school learning / whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute: you / in so often reproaching them / with the ignorance of them / would make us believe / that you are so notable a Logician & Philosopher / as if Logike & Philosophy had been borne with you / & should die with you: when as it may appear / partly by that which hath been spoken / and partly by those things that will fall out hereafter / that you are better acquainted with the names of Logike and Philosophy / then with any sound or substantial knowledge of them. But let that be the universities judgment / where you have been brought up / and are best known. To return to your unprofitable excursions / how oftentimes in your boke / do you pull at the magistrates sword / and what sword you would have I leave to the consideration of all men / seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment / whereupon also doth ensue the expense of that which they have. What matter is in all these / that bringeth any help / to the decision of these causes / that are in question between us? how many leaves have you wasted / in confuting of the quotations / which (you say) are vain / foolish / unlearned / and to no purpose of that / for which they are alleged? And if they be so / where learned you / to spend so much time / about them? Dyd you never learn / that spoude, ta me spoudes axia, elegchein, tôn atopôn esti? to confute trifling things seriously / is a point of those / which have no judgment / to know what is meet for the time and place / and other such circumstances? If I should of the other side now go about to maintain every place / to be not unfitly quoted / unto that ende wherefore it is alleged / and show how unjust your reprehensions are / and how small cause you have / to lead them oftentimes / so gloriously in triumph (as you do) which I assure you / I could do in the most places. (As / what could be more fitly alleged / to induce to read the book / then that they should * try all things? what more fitly / to hold men from rash condemning of things / then that they should be * slow to speak? what more fitly / to move that they should not misselike of the goodness of the cause for the simplicity or base degree of them that defend it / then / that we * should not have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ / in respect of persons? and what more unjustly done / then that you should whip them / for the printers fault / in putting one place for another). If I say / I should thus go about / to make good every place / how evil should I deserve / either of learning / or of the truth it self / in blotting of much paper / whereby no profit would come to the reader? And if the days of a man / were as many / as the days of an Oke / I would neither willingly trouble / nor be troubled / with such strife of words. Seeing therefore / God hath shut us in so narrow terms / me think / men should have conscience of pestoring the world / with such unprofitable treatises.

Therefore all these / and whatsoever else wandering words / I shall meet / with in this book / I mean (by God his grace) as dead things / and nothing worth / to bury with silence / and will answer to those things / which touch the matters that lie in controversy between us. And as for the vnlearnednes / blind zeal / malice / intolerable pride / contempt of all good orders / and twenty such more things / wherewith M. Doctor chargeth us / if our life & conversation doth not confute thē sufficiently / our words & profession of our selves / will not do it. And therefore / we will first stay our selves with y ^• testimony of our own consciences / & thē in the equity of y ^e judgment of all those / which shall indifferently consider these things / y ^• we are charged with. And as for y ^e sword / that is so hotly & hastily called for / we hope it be in their hands / which will use it better / then they are by you directed.

To come therefore unto the matter / out of the places of the. 20. of Matthew / and the 22. of Luke where our savior Christ / upon occasion of the inordinate request of the sons of Zebede / putteth a difference / between the civil and ecclesiastical function / he placeth the distinction of them in two points / whereof the one is / in their office / the other is in their names and titles.

The distinction of the office he noteth / in these words / the kings of the Gentiles have dominion over them / and the princes exercise authority over them / but it shall not be so with you. Wherupon the argument may be thus gathered. That / wherein the civil magistrate is severed from the ecclesiastical officer / doth not agree to one minister over another. But the civil magistrate is severed from the ecclesiastical officer / by bearing dominion. Therefore bearing dominion doth not agree to one minister over another.

Touching their names and titles / he putteth a difference in these words. And they are called gracious Lord's / but it shall not be so with you. And so the argument may be framed as before / that for as much as they are severed in titles / and that to the civil minister doth agree the title of gracious Lord's / therefore to the Ecclesiastical minister the same doth not agree. For as it is fit / that they whose offices carry an outward majesty and pomp should have names agreeable to their magnificence: so is it meet / that those that God hath removed from that pomp and outward show / should likewise be removed from such swelling and lofty titles / as do not agree with the simplicity of the ministry which they exercise. And whereas it might seem somewhat unjust: that he that hath the greater gifts / should not be preferred to those which have less / our savior Christ showeth that the matter is far otherwise. For by how much every man doth excel his fellow in the gifts of the holy ghost / by so much more / he ought to employ him self to the benefit of others: so that in a manner he should become (as it were) their servant to do them good. Which although it be in part common to the civil magistrate with the minister of the word / yet he doth never let down him self so low / nor giveth his service either to the church or common wealth / but that he doth and ought in that service to retain that dignity and countenance / with the marks and notes thereof / which his princely estate doth require.

In the end / he propoundeth him self for example / in whom he setteth before their eyes / a perfect pattern of y ^e ministry. For seeing he being Lord / took vpō him to be a servant / & being Emperor and king of heaven & earth / was content to want all the glory & show of the world (his ministry so requiring) it should be great shame for them which were his disciples / chosen out for the ministry / not to content them selves / but to aspire unto such offices and dignities / as they dreamed of.

Agaynst this is said / that the places do nothing else but condemn ambitious desire and tyrannical usage of authority / and doth not bar the ministers of these things.

Then be like all those godly and learned men / which have used these places to prove that the Pope which professeth him self to be an ecclesiastical person / ought not to have the civil sword / nor to usurp unto him self such glorious pomp / have abused them. For you teach him how he should answer / that there is nothing forbidden but ambition and tyranny / and in deed this is the answer of all the Papists to that objection.

But Musculus a learned man is of y ^e judgment. And M. Calvin (as learned as he with diverse other) are of that judgment that I have alleged. This is no great proof of your side / nor reproof of ours / let us therefore see the reasons wherewith this exposition is warranted. Musculus reason is this / that if he should have meant that the Apostles had been equal and none greater then another / then there should be equality of all / and none should have authority over other. And so there should be no degrees of the Prince and subject in the common wealth / of master and servant in a family / of people & minister in y ^e church. But it is no good reason to say / there is / nor ought to be / any inequality amongst the apostles / therefore there is none / nor ought to be none at all: Or to say there is no mequalitie amongst the pastors / therefore there is no inequality between the pastors and the people. For as common wealths / families / and churches / are preserved by inequality / and in that some are higher / and some are lower / some rule / and some obey: so are the same likewise preserved by equality of certain amongst them selves. As for example / albeit the Consuls in Rome / wer above other offices / and the people / yet were they equal between them selves. And although it be the preservation of the family / that the master should be above the sernaunt / and the father above the son: yet it tendeth also to the quiet of the house that the servants amongst them selves / and the brethren amongst them selves / should be equal. And so we grant / that for the preservation of the church / it is necessary that there be some should bear rule / and other should be under their rule: but I deny / that thereof followeth / that one minister should bear rule over another. Whereas M. Musculus saith that Peter was found in many places chief amongst the rest / if he mean as Eusebius, lib. 2. cap. 14. doth / which saith / that he was tes aretes eneka tôn Ioipon apostolon proegoron for his virtues and gifts he had / one that spake before the rest / & in the name of the rest / (which he seemeth to do in that he doth not absolutely give any chefetie unto him but only in certain places) I agree with him / and do not deny / but such chiefetie may be amongst the ministers / as shall appear more at large hereafter.

This interpretation of M. Musculus (master D. saith) must needs be true / or else Christ should reject Princes & Magistrates / emongst both Christians & other. I have shown how it doth not follow that / because he forbiddeth y ^• rule unto the ministers / therefore he forbiddeth it simply and altogether: no more then the law which forbiddeth that any stranger should be king of the realm / for biddeth therefore that there should be no king of the realm. Whereas you say master Musculus teacheth how he ought to rule which ruleth / & what he ought to be / I have told you before / other think otherwise: and therefore you having set down his judgment before / needed not to have repeated it here again. But the Greek words (you say) catakyrieuousin kai catexousiazousin do signify to rule with oppression / and why may not I say that this preposition cata, doth not signify here a perverseness of rule / but an absoluteness and a full power and jurisdiction as catamathein, catalambanein is not to learn / or to perceive evilly and perversely / but to learn exactly / and to perceive thoroughly and perfectly? but what need we to follow conjectures in so plain a matter? when as Saint Luke useth the simple words without any composition of exousiazein Kai Kyrieuein? do you not perceive that the preposition wherein you put so great confidence / deceiveth you / besides the manifest untruth you commit in saying / that all three Evangelists have katexousiazousin & katakyrieuousin. Furthermore you say / that our savior Christ saith not / that no man shall be great amongst them / but he that desireth to be great amongst them. He had said so before when he had said it shall not be so amongst you / and therefore needed not to repeat it: and yet another Evangelist saith not / he that desireth to be great / but let the greatest among you / be as the least. Whereby he doth not reprehend only the desire of being great / but will not have them to be one above another.

An answer to that which is contained in the. 20. 21. and 22. page / until. Now if either godly Councils.

YOu give occasion of suspicion / that your end will be scarce good / which have made so evil a beginning. For whereas you had gathered out of the Admonition / that nothing should be placed in the Church / but that God hath in his word commanded / as though the words were not plain enough / you will give them some light / by your exposition. And what is y ^t ? you answer that it is as much as though they would say / nothing is to be tolerated in the church of Christ / touching either doctrine / order / ceremonies / discipline / or government / except it be expressed in the word of God. Is this to interpret? is it all one to say: nothing must be placed in the church: and nothing must be tolerated in the church? he hath but small judgment / that cannot tell / that certain things may be tolerated and borne with for a time / which if they were to be set in and placed / could not be done without the great fault of them that should place them. Again / are these of like weight / except it be commanded in the word of God: and except it be expressed in the word of God? Many things are both commanded and forbidden / of which there is no express mention in the word / which are as necessarily to be followed / or avoided / as those / whereof express mention is made. Therefore unless your waightes be truer / if I could let it / you should waighe none of my words. Hereupon you conclude / that their arguments taken ab authoritate negative, prove nothing. When the question is of the authority of a man / in deed it neither holdeth affirmatively nor negatively. For as it is no good argument to say / it is not true because Aristotle or Plato said it not: so is it not to say / it is true / because they said so. The reason whereof is / because the infirmity of man can neither attain to the perfection of anything / whereby he might speak all things that are to be spoken of it / neither yet be free from error in those things / which he speaketh or giveth out / and therefore this argument / neither affirmatively / nor negatively / compelleth the hearer: But only induceth him to some liking or misliking of that / for which it is brought / & is rather for an orator to persuade the simpler sort: thē for a disputer to enforce him that is learned. But for so much as the Lord God / determyning to set before our eyes a perfect form of his church / is both able to do it / and hath done it / a man may reason both ways necessarily. The Lord hath commanded / it should be in hy • church: therefore it must. And of the other side / he hath not commanded: therefore it must not be. And it is not hard to show / that the Prophets have so reasoned negatively. As when in the person of the Lord the Prophet saith / * whereof I have not spoken / and which never entered into my heart: and as where he condemneth them / * because they have not asked counsel at the mouthe of the Lord. But you say / that in matters of faith and necessary to salvation it holdeth / which things you oppose afterwards and set against matters of ceremonies / orders / discyplyne and government: as though matters of discipline and kind of government were not matters necessary to salvation / and of faith. The case which you put / whether the bishop of Rome be head of the church / is a matter / that concerneth the government / and the kind of government of the church / and the same is a matter that toucheth faith / and that standeth upon our salvation. Excommunication / and other censures of the church / which are forerunners unto excommunication / are matters of discipline / and the same are also of faith and of salvation. The sacraments of the Lord his supper / and of baptism are ceremonies / and are matters of faith and necessary to salvation. And therefore you which distinguish between these / and say / that the former / that is matters of faith and necessary to salvation may not be tolerated in the church / unless they be expressly contained in the word of God or manyfestly gathered: But that these later which are / ceremonies / order / discipline / government in the church / may not be received against the word of God / and consequently received if there be no word against them (although there be none for them) you I say distinguishing or dyuiding after this sort / do prove yourself to be as evil a deuyder / as you shown yourself before an expounder / for this is to break in pieces / and not to devide.

And it is no small injury which you do unto the word of God / to pin it in so narrow room / as that it should be able to direct us / but in the principal points of our religion: or as though the substance of religion / or some rude and vnfashioned matter of building of the church were uttered in them, & those things were left out / that should pertain to the form and fashion of it: or as if there were in the scriptures only to cover the churches nakedness / and not also chains and bracelettes and rings / and other jewels / to adorn hir and set hir out / or that to conclude / there were sufficient to quench hir thirst / & kill hir hunger / but not to minister unto hir a more liberal / and (as it were) a more delicious and dainty diet. These things you seem to say / when you say / that matters necessary to salvation and of faith are contained in the scripture / especially when you appose these things / to ceremonies / order discipline / and government.

And if you mean by matters of faith and necessary to salvation / those without which a man cannot be saved: then the doctrine that teacheth there is no free will / or prayer for the dead / is not within your compass. For I doubt not / but divers of the fathers of the Greke church / which were great patrons of free will (at lest as their words pretend) are saved holding the foundation of the faith / which is Christ. The like might be said of a number of other / as necessary doctrines / wherein men being nusled / have notwithstanding been saved. Therefore seeing that the point of the question lieth chiefly in this distinction / it had been good that you had spoken more certainly and properly of these things.

But to the ende it may appear / that this speech of yours / doth something take up & shrink the arms of the scripture / which otherwise are so long & large: I say that the word of God containeth the direction of all things pertaining to the church / yea of whatsoever things can fall into any part of man's life. For so Solomon saith / in the second chapter of the Proverbs. My son / if thou receive my words / and hyde my precepts. &c. Then thou shalt understand justice and judgment / and equity / and every good way. S. Paul saith that whether we eat or drink / or whatsoever we do / we must do it to the glory of God. But no man can gloryfy God in anything but by obedience / and there is no obedience but in respect of the commandment and word of God: therefore it followeth that the word of God directeth a man in all his actions. And that which S. Paul said of meats and drinks that they are sanctified unto us by the word of God / the same is to be understanded of all things else whatsoever we have the use of. But the place of S. Paul is of all other most clear / where speaking of those things which are called indifferent / in the ende he concludeth / that whatsoever is not of faith / is sin: but faith is not but in respect of the word of God / therefore whatsoever is not done by the word of God / is sin. And if any will say that S. Paul meaneth there a full plerophorian and persuasion that that which he doth is well done / I grant it. But from whence can that spring but from faith / and how can we persuade and assure our selves / that we do well / but whereas we have the word of God for our warrant? so that the Apostle by a metonimie Subiecti pro adiuncto, doth give to understand from whence the assured persuasion doth spring. Whereupon it falleth out / y ^e forasmuch as in all our actions both publyke & private we ought to follow y ^e direction of y ^e word of God: in matters of the church and which concern all / there may be nothing done but by the word of God. Not that we say / as you charge us in these words (that no ceremony. &c. may be in the church except the same be expressed in the word of God) but that in making orders and ceremonies of the church / it is not lawful to do what men list / but they are bound to follow the general rules of the scripture / that are given to be the squire / whereby those should be squared out. Which rules I will here set down / as those which I would have as well all orders & ceremonies of the church framed by / as by the which I will be content / that all those orders & ceremonies which are now in question / whether they be good & convenient or no / should be tried & examined by. And they are those rules / which Paul gave in such cases as are not particularly mentioned of in scripture.

• The first / that they offend not any / especially the Church of God.
• The second / is (that which you cite also out of Paul) that all be done in order and comclynes.
• The third / that all be done to edifying.
• The last / that they be done to the glory of God.

So that you see that those things which you reckon up / of the hour / & time / & day of prayer. &c. albeit they be not specified in the scripture / yet they are not left to any / to order at their pleasure / or so that they be not against the word of God: but even by and according to the word of God they must be established: and those alone to be taken / which do agree best and nearest with these rules before recited. And so it is brought to pass (which you think a great absurdity) that all things in the church should be appointed according to the word of God. Whereby it likewise appeareth / that we deny not but certain things are left to the order of the church / because they are of the nature of those which are varied by times / places / persons / & other circumstances / & so could not at once be set down & established forever: & yet so left to the order of the church / as y ^t it do nothing against the rules aforsayde. But how doth this follow / y ^t certain things are left to y ^e order of the church / therefore to make a new ministry by making an Archbishop / to alter y ^e ministry y ^e is appointed / by making a bishop or pastor without a church or flock / to make a deacon without appointing him his church whereof he is a deacon / & where he might exercise his charge of providing for y ^e pore / to abrogate clean both name & office of y ^e elder with other more: how I say doth it follow y ^e because the church hath power to order certain things / therefore it hath power to do so of these / which God hath ordained and established: of the which there is no time / nor place / nor person / nor any other circumstance / which can cause any alteration or change? Which thing shall better appear both in the discourse of the whole book / and especially there / where you go about to show certain reasons / why there should be other government now / then was in y ^e time of the apostles. But while you go about to seme to say much / & rake up a great number of things / you have made very evil mestin (and you have put / in one / things which are not pairs nor matches. Because I will not draw the reader willingly into more questions then are already put up / I will not stand to dispute / whether the Lord's day which we call Sunday (being the day of the resurrection of our savior Christ / and so the day wherein the world was renewed as the Jews sabbath was the day wherein the world was finished / and being in all the churches in the Apostles times as it seemeth used for the day of the rest and serving of God) ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say / that there was no great judgment to make it as arbytrarie and chaungeable / as the hour and the place of prayer. But where was your judgment / when you wrote / that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such / as shall contemn the common prayers and hearing the word of God? What church discipline would you have other then admonions / reprehensions / and if these will not profit excommunication? and are they not appointed of our savior Christ. There are also civil punishments / and punishments of the body likewise / appointed by the word of God in diverse places / in Exodus. He that sacrificeth to other gods / and not to the Lord alone / shall die the death. And in Deutcronomie. Thou shalt burn out the evil out of the midst of thee / that the rest may hear & learn and not dare do the like. The execution of this law appeareth in y ^e Chro. by king Aza / who made a law / that all those that did not seek y ^e Lord should be kilde. And thus you see y ^e civil punishment of contēners of y ^e word & prayers.

There are other for such as neglect the word / which are according to the quantity of the fault: so that whether you mean civil or ecclesiastical correction / the scripture hath defined of them both. I omit that there be examples of pulpits in Nehemiah's which the common translation calleth Ezra / of chairs in S. Matthew / where / by the chair of Moses our savior Christ meaning the doctrine of Moses / doth also declare the manner which they used in teaching: Of sitting at the communion (which the Evangelist noteth to have been done of our Sauioure Christ with his disciples) which examples are not to be lightly changed / and upon many occasions.

But this I cannot omit / that you make it an indifferent thing to preach the word of God in churches or in houses / that is to say / privately or publicly. For what better interpretation can I have / then of your own words / which say by and by after / of Baptism / that it is at the order of the church / to make it private or public. For if it be in the power of y ^e church / to order that Baptism may be ministered at y ^e house of every private person / it is also in her power to ordain that the word / be preached also privately. And then where is that which Solomon saith that wisdom crieth openly & in the streets / and at the corners of the stretes where many meet: and where be the examples of the old church / which had besides the temple at Jerusalem / erected up synagogues in every town to hear the word of God / and minister the cyrcumcysion? what is become of the commandment of our savior Christ / which * willed his discyples that they should preach openly / and upon the house tops / that which they heard in the ear of him / and secreately? and howe do we observe the example of our savior Christ / who to deliver his doctrine from all suspytion of tumults and other dysorders / said that he preached openly in the temple and in the synagogues / albeit the same were very dangerous unto him? & the example of the * Apostles / that did the same. For as for y ^e time of persecution / when the church dare not / nor is not meet / that it should show it self to the enemy / no not then is the word of God nor the sacraments privately preached or ministered / neither yet ought to be.

For although they be done in the house of private man / yet because they are & ought to be ministered in the presence of the congregation / there is neither private preaching / nor private baptism. For like as where so ever the Queens majesty lieth / there is the Courte / although it be in a Gentleman his house / so wheresoever the church meeteth / that place is not to be holden private / as touching the prayers / preachings / and sacraments / that shall be there ministered. So that I deny unto you that the church hath power to ordain at her pleasure / whether preaching or ministering of sacraments / should be private or public / when they ought not to be / but where the church is / and the church ought not to assemble (if it be not letted by persecution) but in open places. And when it is driven from them / those places where it gathereth it self together / although they be otherwise private / yet are they for the time that the churches do there assemble / and for respect of the word and sacraments / that are there ministered in the presence of the church / public places. And so you see those (whom you charge slanderously with conventicles) are fain to glase up the windows that you open to secreate and private conventicles.

The Answer from. Now if either godly councils / unto I trust M. Calvin's judgment will weigh.

HEere are brought in Justin Martyr / Irenaeus / Tertullian / Cyprian / and councils / as dumb persons in the stage only to make a show / and so they go out of the stage without saying anything. And if they had had anything to say in this cause for these matters in controuersye / there is no doubt / but M. Doctor would have made them speak. For when he placeth y ^e greatest strength of his cause in antiquity / he would not have passed by Justin / Irenaeus / Tertullian / Cyprian / being so ancient / and taken Augustine / which was a great time after them. And if the godly councils could have helped here / it is small wisdom to take Augustine / and leave them. For I think he might have learned that amongst the authorities of mē / the credit of many is better then of one: and that this is a general rule / that as the judgment of some notable personage is looked unto in a matter of debate / more then theirs of the common sort / so the judgment of a council / where many learned men be gathered together / carrieth more likelihood of truth with it / then the judgment of one man / although it be but a provincial council / much more then / if it be a general / and therefore you do your cause great injury / if you could allege them / and do not. Thys is once to be observed of the reader throughout your whole boke / that you have well provided that you would not be taken in the trip for misalledging the scriptures / for that unless it be in one or two points / we hear continually (instead of Isaiah and Jeremiah / S. Paul / and S. Peter / and the rest of the Prophets and Apostles) S. Augustine and S. Ambrose / kai to en te phake myron, Dionysius Areopagita / Clement. &c. And therefore I cannot tell with what face we can call the papists from their antiquity / councils / and fathers / to the trial of the scriptures / who in the controversies which rise amongst our selves / fly so far from them / that it wanteth not much / that they are not banished of your part / from the deciding of all these controversies.

And if this be a sufficient proof of things to say / such a Doctor said so / such a council decreed so / there is almost nothing so true but I can impugn / nothing so false / but I can make true. And well assured I am / that by their means / the principal grounds of our faith may be shaken.

And therefore / because you have no proof in the word of God / we comfort our selves / assured / that for so much as the foundations of the Archbyshop and Lordship of Bishops and of other things / which are in question / be not in heaven / that they will fall and come to the ground / from whence they were taken.

Now it is known they are from beneath and of the earth / and that they are of men and not of God: The answearer goeth about to prove / that they came yet out of good earth / and from good men / which if he had obtained / yet he may well know / that it is no good argument to prove that they are good. For as the best earth bringeth forth weeds / so do the best men / bring forth lies and errors. But let us hear what is brought / that if this visarde and show of truth be taken away / all men may perceive / howe good occasion we have to complain / and howe just cause there is of reformation. In the first place of S. Augustine there is nothing against anything which we hold / for this / that the church may have things not expressed in the scripture / is not against / that it ought to have nothing / but that may be warranted by the scripture. For they may be according to the scripture / and by the scripture / which are not by plain terms expressed in the scripture. But against you it maketh much / & overturneth all your building in this boke. For if in those things which are not expressed in y ^e scripture / that is to be observed of the Church / which is the custom of the people of God / and decree of our forefathers: then howe can these things be varied according to time / place / & persons / (which you say should be) when as y ^t is to be retained / which y ^e people of God hath used / & the decrees of the forefathers have ordained. And thē also how can we do safelier / then to follow the apostles customs and the churches in their time / which we are sure are our for fathers / & the people of god.

Besides that / how can we retain the customs and constitutions of the papists in such things / which were neither the people of God / nor our forefathers.

I will not enter now / to discus / whether it were well done to fast in all places according to the custom of the place. You oppose Amb. & Aug. I could oppose Ignatius and Tertullian / whereof the one saith it is (nefas) a detestable thing to fast upon the Lord's day / the other / y ^e it is to kill the Lord / & this is the inconvenience that cometh of such unlearned kind of reasoning / S. Ambrose saith so / & therefore it is true. And although Amb. and Aug. being strangers and private men at Rome would have so done / yet it followeth not / y ^t if they had ben citizens & ministers there y ^• they would have don it / & if they had don so to / yet it followeth not but they would have spoken against y ^e appointment of days / & nomothesian, of fasting / whereof Eusebius saith / that Montanus was the first author. I speak of that which they ought to have done / for otherwise I know they both thought corruptly of fasting: whē as the one saith / it was remedy or reward to fast other days / but in Lent / not to fast / was sin: and the other asketh / what salvation we can obtain / if we blot not our sins by fasting / seeing y ^t the scripture saith / y ^e fasting & alms doth deliver from sin / & therefore calleth them new teachers / that shut out the merit of fasting. Which I therefore recite / because you would seme by Aug. & Ambrose judgments / to alow of the weekly and commanded fasts. What you mean to cite this place ad Ianuarium. 118. I cannot tell / you charge the authors of the admonition to be conspired w ^t the papists / I will not charge you so / but will think better of you / until the contrary do more appear. But I appeal to the judgment of all men / if this be not to bring in popery again / to allow of s. Aug. saying / wherein he saith that the celebrating of the day of the passion. &c. is either of some general council / or of the Apostles commanded & decreed / whereby a gate is opē unto the papists to bring in / under the color of traditions / all their beggary whatsoever. For you plainly confirm / that there is something necessary to be observed / which is not contained any ways in y ^e scripture. For to keep those holy days / is not contained in the scripture / neither can be concluded of any part thereof / and yet they are necessary to be kept / if they be commanded of the Apostles. Therefore in your opinion / something is necessary to be kept / which is not contained in the scriptures / nor cannot be concluded of them. And if you say / that S. Aug. leaveth it in dout / whether it were the Apostles tradition & statute / or a general councils / then you bring us yet to a worse point / that we cannot be assured of y ^e which is necessary for us to know / that is whether the Apostles did ordain that these days should be kept as holy days / or the councils. And that it is S. Augustine's meaning / to father such like things of the Apostles / it may appear by that which he writeth / saying. There are many things which the whole church holdeth / and therefore are well believed to be commanded of the Apostles / although they be not found written. If this judgment of s. Augustine be a good judgment and a sound / then there be some things commanded of God / which are not in the scriptures / & therefore there is no sufficient doctrine contained in the scriptures / whereby we may be saved. For all the commandments of God & of the apostles / are nedeful for our salvation.

And mark I pray you whether your affections carry you: before you said / that the Lord's day which was used for the day of rest in the Apostles time / may be changed / as the place / and hour of prayer: but the day of the passion & resurrection. &c. you either thrust upon us as the decree of the apostles / or at least put upon us a necessity of keeping of them / least haply in breaking of them / we might break the Apostles decree / for you make it to lie between the councils and the apostles / which of them decreed this. And do you not perceive / how you still reason against yourself? for if the church have had so great regard to y ^t which the apostles did in their times / that they kept those things which are not wryttē / and therefore are doutfull whether ever they used them or no / how much more should we hold our selves to these things / which are written / that they did / and of the which we are assured? As touching the observation of these holy days / I will refer the reader unto another place / where occasion is given again to speak of them. As for that rule y ^• he giveth when he saith whatsoever is not. &c. and for the last of the three rules / I receive them with his own interpretation / which he hath afterward in. 119. epist. ad Ianuarium, which is / that it be also profitable.

And as for those three rules / which you say / are worthy to be noted / I can see nothing that they help your cause one whit / for I know no man that ever denied / but that the church may in such things as are not specified / and precisely determined / make orders so they be grounded of those general rules which I have before alleged out of S. Paul.

And as for the second of the three rules / I cannot at any hand allow it. For when all christianity was over run with Popery / things were universally observed / which to keep / were mere wickedness / and this strengtheneth the papists universality.

Concerning your gloss (if it be not repugnant to the scripture) besides that it is not enough / because it must be grounded by the scripture / and that it is wicked to give such authority to any decree of men / that a man should not inquire of it / or reason of it / I have shown that he meant nothing les. For affirming that such things are the Apostles commandments / his meaning was / that they should be without all exception received / and absolutely. How much better is it / that we take heed to the words of the Apostle / then either to S. Augustine's or yours / which saith / that if he / or an angel from heaven / should preach any other gospel / then that which he had preached / that they should hold him accursed: he saith not any contrary or repugnant doctrine / but any other gospel.

But tell me / why passed you by y ^t in Augustine which he * writeth to Iunuarie that those things which are not contained in the scripture / nor decreed of coūcelles / nor confirmed by general customs / but are varied by the manners of regions and of men / upon occasion offered / ought to be cut of / although they seem not to be against faith / because they pres with servile burdens the religion / which Christ would have free. Thys sentence belike was to hot for you / you could not carry it. The rest whose names you recite (which you say you leave of for brevity sake) I leave to the judgment of the Reader to consider / wherefor they be left out / seeing that Augustine in whom you put so great trust / answereth so little to your expectation. Thys is certain / that brevity (which you pretend) was in small commendation with you / which make so often repetitions / stuff in diverse sentences of Doctors and writers / to prove things that no man denieth / translate whole leaves to so small purpose / upon so light occasions / make so often digressions / sometimes against the vnlernednes / sometimes against the malice / sometimes against the intemperance of speech of the authors of the admonition / and every hand while pulling out the sword upon them / and throughout the whole boke / sporting yourself with the quotations in the margent / so that if all these where taken out of your boke / as wind out of a bladder / we should have had it in a narrow room / which is thus swelled into such a volume / and instead of a boke of .ii. s. we should have had a pamfiet of two pence.

And whereas you say / that you have not alleged these learned fathers for the authors of the libel / but for the wise / discrete / humble / and learned / to them also I leave it to consider / upon that / which is alleged by me. First / howe like a divine it is / to seek for rules in the Doctors / to measure the making of ceremonies by / which you might have had in the scriptures: there / at the rivers / here / at the fountain / vncerten there / which here are certain / there / in parte false / which are here altogether true / then to howe little purpose they serve you / and last of all howe they make against you.

An answer to the ende of the. 29. page / beginning at the. 25. at. But I trust M. Calvin's judgment.

WHy should you trust that M. Calvin's judgment will weigh with them / if they be Anabaptists (as you accuse them) if they be Donatists / if Catharists / if conspired with the Papists / howe can you think that they will so easily rest in M. Calvin's judgment / which hated and confuted all Anabaptism / Donatism / Catharisme and Papism? But it is true which the proverb saith / memorem. &c. he that will speak an untruth had need have a good memory: and this is the force of the truth / in the conscience of man / that although he suppres it / and pretend the contrary / yet at unawares it stealeth out. For what greater testimony could you have given of them / that they hate all those heresies which you lay to their charge / then to say / that you trust M. Calvin's judgment / will weigh with them? Now in deed (that you be not deceived) we receive M. Calvin / and weigh of him / as of the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred up / for the purging of his churches / and of the restoring of the plain and sincere interpretation of the scriptures / which hath been since the Apostles times. And yet we do not so read his works / that we believe any thing to be true / because he saith it / but so far as we can esteem / that that which he saith / doth agree with the canonical scriptures. But what gather you out of M. Calvin?

First / that all necessary things to salvation / are contained in the scripture: who denieth it?

In the second collection / where you would give to understand / that ceremonies and external discipline / are not prescribed particularly by the word of God / and therefore left to the order of the church: you must understand / that all external discipline / is not left to the order of the church / being particularly prescribed in the scriptures: no more then all ceremonies are left to the order of the church / as the sacraments of baptism / and the supper of the Lord: whereas / upon the indefinite speaking of M. Calvin / saying ceremonies and external discipline, without adding / all or some / you go about subtelly to make men believe / that M. Calvin had placed the whole external discipline / in the power and arbitrement of the church. For if all external discipline were arbitrary / and in the choice of the church / Excommunication also (which is a part of it) might be cast away / which I think you will not say. But if that M. Calvin were alive to hear his sentences racked and written / to establish those things / which he strove so mightily to overthrow / and to overthrow those things that he labored so sore to establish / what might he say? and the injury which is done to him / is nothing les because he is dead.

Concerning all the rest of your collections / I have not lightly known a man / which taketh so much pain with so small gain / and which soweth his seed in the sea / whereof there will never rise increase. For I know none that ever denied those things / unless peradventure you would make the reader believe / that all those be contentions / which move any controversy of things which they judge to be amis / and thē it is answered before. And now I answer further / that they that move to reformation of things / are no more to be blamed as authors of contention / then the Physician / which giveth a purgation / is to be blamed / for the rumbling and stir in the belly / and other disquietness of the body: which should not have been / if the evil humors and naughty disposition of it / had not caused or procured this purgation.

Whereas you conclude / that these contentions would be sone ended / if M. Calvin's words were noted / here we will join with you / and will not refuse the judgment of M. Calvin / in any matter that we have in controversy w ^t you. Which I speak not therefore because I would call the decision of controversies to men / and their words (which pertain only to God and to his word) but because I know his judgment in these things to be clean against you / and especially for that you would bear men in hand / that M. Calvin is on your side / and against us. And as for Peter Martyr / and Bucer / and Musculus / and Bullinger / Gwalther / and Hemingius / and the rest of the late writers / by citing of whom you would give to understand / that they are against us in these matters / there is set down in the latter end of this boke / their several judgments / of the most of these things which are in controversy: whereby it may appear / that if they have spoken one word against us / they have spoken two for us. And whereas they have written (as it is said and alleged in their private letters to their friends) against some of these causes / it may appear / that they have in their works published to the whole world / that they confirm the same causes. So y ^• if they wrote any such things / they shall be found not so much to have dissented from us / as from them selves: and therefore we appeal from them selves / unto them selves: and from their private notes and letters / to their public writings / as more autenticall. You labor still in the fire / that is unprofitably / to bring M. Bucer his Epistle / to prove / that the church may order things / whereof there is no particular and expressed commandment / for there is none denieth it / neither is this saying / that all things are to be done in the church / according to the rule of the word of God / anything repugnant unto this / that the church may ordain certain things / according to the word of God.

But if this epistle and others of M. Bucer's with his notes upon y ^e boke of Common prayer / which are so often cited / and certain Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were never printed (as I cannot understand they were) then besides that you do us injury / which go about to prejudice our cause by the testimonies of them / which we can neither hear / nor see / being kept close in your study: you also do your cause much more injury / whilst you betray the poverty and nakedness of it / being fain to ransack & rifie up every dark corner / to find something to cover it with. Therefore it were good / before you toke any benefit of them / to let thē come forth / and speak their own testimonies in their own language and full out. For now you give men occasion to think / that there are some other things in their Epistles / which you would be loath the world should know / for fear of fall of that / which you would gladly keep.

There is no man that faith / that it ought to be permitted to every person in the church where he is minister / to have such order or discipline / or to use such service / as he listeth / no mā seeketh for it. But to have the order which God hath left in those things which the word precisely appointeth / and in other things to use that / which shall be according to the rules of S. Paul before recited / agreed by the church / and constrined by the Prince.

And whereas you have ever hitherto given the ordering of these things to the church / howe come you now to ascribe it to the Bishops? you mean I am sure the Bishops / as we call Bishops here in England / whereby you fall into the opinion of the papists unawares / which when they have spoken many things of the church magnifically / at the last they bring it now to the Doctors of the church / now to bishops.

As form / although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Bishops / and very learned also / and therefore very meet to be admitted into that consultation / wherein it shall be considered / what things are good in the church: yet in respect of that office and calling of a bishop / which they now exercise / I think that every godly learned minister & pastor of the church / hath more interest and right in respect of his office / to be at that consultation / then any bishop or archbishop in the realm / for as much as he hath an ordinary calling of God & function appointed in the scriptures which he exerciseth / and the other hath not.

But how this authority pertaining to the whole church of making of such orders / may and ought to be called to a certain number / that confusion may be avoided / and with the consent also of the churches to avoid tyranny / it shall appear in a more proper place / where we shall have occasion to speak of the eldership or government in every church / and of the communion and society or participation and entercommuning of the churches together / by councils and assemblies provincial or national.

Answer till the Admonition / from the beginning of the 30. page.

VNto the places of Deuteronomic / which prove that nothing ought to be done in the church / but that which God commandeth / and that nothing should be added nor diminished. First you answer / that that was a precept given to the Jews for that time / which had all things even the least prescribed unto them. I see it is true which is said / that one absurdity granted / a hundred follow. For to make good / that things ought to be done besides the scripture and word of God / you are driven to run into parte of the error of the Manichees / which say / that the old Testament pertaineth not unto us / nor bindeth not us. For what is it else / then to say that these two places served for the Jews time / and under the law? For surely / if these two places agree not unto us in time of the gospel / I know none in all the old Testament / which do agree / and I pray you what is here said / which S. John in the * Apocalypse saith not / where he shutteth up the new Testament in this sort. I protest unto every mā which heareth the prophecy of this boke / that whosoever addeth anything to it / the Lord shall add unto him the plagues which are written in it: and whosoever taketh away anything from it / the Lord shall take away his portion out of the boke of life / and out of the things that are written in it? which admonition if you say pertaineth to that boke of the Apocalypse only / yet you must remember / that the same may be as truly said of any other boke of the scripture.

Then you are driven to say / that the Jews under the law / had a more certain direction / and consequently a readier way / then we have in the time of the gospel / of the which time the Prophet saith / that then a man should not teache his neighbor / they shall be so taught of God: as if he should say / that they that live under the gospel / should be all in comparison of that which were under the law Doctors. And Isaiah saith / that in the days of the gospel / the people shall not stand in the outward courts but he will bring them into the sanctuary that is to say / that they should be all / for their knowledge as learned as the Levites and Priests / which only had entrance into it.

Now if the Jews had precepts of every the least action / which told them precisely how they should walk: how is not their case in that point better then ours / which because we have in many things but general rules / are to seek oftentimes / what is the will of God which we should follow? But let us examine their laws / and compare them with ours in the matters pertaining to the church: for whereas y ^e question is of the government of the church it is very impertinent / that you speak of the iudicialies / as though you had not yet learned / to distinguish between the Church and common wealth.

To the ordering and governing of the church / they had only the moral and ceremonial law: we have the same moral that they had: what special direction therefore they enjoy by the benefit of that / we have. We have no ceremonies but two / the ceremonies or sacraments of Baptism and of the Lord's supper / & we have as certain a direction to celebrate them / as they had / to celebrate their ceremonies / and fewer and les difficulties can rise of ours / then of theirs: and we have more plain and express doctrine to decide our controversies then they had for theirs. What hour had they for their ordinary and daily sacrifices: was it not left to the order of the church? what places were appointed in their several dwellings to hear the word of God preached continually / when they came not to Jerusalem? the word was commanded to be preached / but no mention made / what manner of place they should have: where was pulpittes commanded / or chairs? and yet they had both. Where any form of burial in the law? and yet it is a thing pertaining to the church / that the dead be after a comely sort buried. Where / any order or form of marriage? and yet it is known they had. It was (which is more) in the discretion of that church / upon occasion of dearthe / or war / plagues / or any other common calamity / to proclaim a fast.

I will not be long / where as you say / that they had nothing but was determined by the law: and we have many things undetermined and left to the order of the church / I will offer for one that you shall bring / that we have left to the order of the church / to show you that they had twenty which were undecided of by the express word of God. For as their ceremonies and sacraments are multiplied above ours / so grew the number of those cases which were not determined by any express word / and therefore▪ I will conclude / that for so much as we have the same laws to direct us in the service of God / which they had / beside that / a noble addition of the new Testament to make things more manifest / and to bring greater light unto the old Testament / we have also precise direction of our religion as they had / and therefore those places of Deuter. stand in as great force now touching the government of the church / as they did then.

And as for the judicial law / for as much as there are some of them made in regard of the region where they were given / and of the people to whom they were given / the Prince and Magistrate keeping the substance & equity of them (as it were the marrow) may change the circumstances of them / as the times / and places / and manners of the people shall require. But to say that any magistrate can save the life of blasphemers / contemptuous and stubborn Idolaters / murderers / adulterers / incestuous persons / and such like / which God by his judicial law hath commanded to be put to death / I do utterly deny / and am ready to prove / if that pertained to this question. And therefore although the judicial laws are permitted to the discretion of the prince and magistrate / yet not so generally as you seem to affirm / and as I have oftentimes said / that not only it must not be done against the word / but according to the word and by it.

After you define what is it to take from / & put to the word of God / wherein not to speak of your wonderful dexterity in defining / which can define two things / and those contrary (putting to and taking fro) with one difference (which zeno him self could never do) you leave out that which Moses especially meant to comprehend / which is / not to do more / nor to do les / thē he hath commanded. And as for your division / it hath as evil succes here / as in other places / for when it is a great fault in deviding / to have either too much or too little / you fault in both / for whereas you say / they add / which teache or decree. &c. besides that you leave out which Moses meant / you forget also that which yourself had said / which had placed adding to / not only in teaching and decreeing / but in thinking or believing. And whereas you make four partes of your division / y ^e three last are found to be all under the first member / which is to make things of faith and ceremonies / contrary to the word / and so your division is not only faultye / but no division at all. The which thing I could have easily forgiven you / and passed by as a thing not very commendable to travail to show the poverty of those things / which do sufficiently of them selves (as it were) proclaim their own shame: but that it grieved me to see a boke lengthened with first / second / third / last / as though everyone of them contained some notable new matter / which needed an Oyes before it / to stir up the attention of the reader / when there is nothing but a many of words without matter / as it were a sort of fair empty Apothecaries boxes / without any stuff in them. And for that you are so hard with other men for their Logike / I will desire the reader to pardon me / if I pursue these things more narowlyer then some peradventure will like of / or I myself delight in. And so for any definition or division that I cā perceive / it standeth fast / that nothing is to be done in the church of God / but by his commandment and word directing the same. It is true in deed / if they be not against the word of God / and be profitable for the church / they are to be received / as those things / which God by the church doth command / and as grounded of the word of God: but there is the question / and therefore you taking this as a thing granted always / do always fall into that which you charge other with of the fallation of petitio principii.

To that in the. 34. and. 35. page.

WHere in effect do they say / that the church of England is boide of preaching and ministering of the sacraments? is it all one to say / that the word in the church of England is not purely preached / and the sacraments sincerely / and discipline severely administered / with this / that the church of England is void of all these? Again / where do they reason thus / that the word of God is not truly preached / because the ministers are not rightly proved & elected when as they have not one word of true preaching? is it all one to say it is not purely preached / & to say it is not truly preached? S. Paul is glad that the gospel be preached / although it be not purely / but he would never have been glad / y ^• it should have ben preached falsely or not truly. Again / he inueyeth not against y ^e false Apostles in the church of Corinth / because they preached the word untruly / but because they using painted words and affected eloquence / and making a great show of learning and tongues / did not preach the Gospel sincerely. So that you see that it is one thing not to preach truly / and another not to preach purely: and you see their reason is not so evil: for the want of a good calling / may give occasion to say / that the word of God is not sincerely taught / because there is not a lawful and ordynary calling. For although for the substance of doctrine / and the manner of handling of it / they that S. Paul speaketh of to the Phillip. did no fault / yet S. Paul saith that they did not preach purely / because they did it of contention or of eniue / which was no fault in the doctrine / but in him that taught. Therefore let men judge how just your weights are / that expound not purely / not truly: and whether this be to confute other men's arguments / rather then to skirmishe with your own shadows.

I know no papists reason thus / that because we have no ministers / therefore no word / no sacraments / no discipline / no church. For they deny we have the word or sacraments / because we hold not their word & sacrifice / but if there be that so reason / yet these men that you charge / have neither any such antecedent or such a consequent: for they never said that there is no ministry in England / nor yet do ever conclude / that there is no word / no sacraments / no discipline / nor church. For in saying that the face of the church doth not so much appear (for so the whole process of their book doth declare that they mean / when they say that we have not scarce the face of the church) they grant / that we have the church of God: but that for want of those ornaments / which it should have / and through certain the deformed rags of popery which it should not have / the church doth not appear in her native colors / and so beautiful / as it is meet she should be prepared to so glorious a husband as is the son of God. Say you certainly? and do you believe / that the authors of this book are conspired with the papists to overthrow this church and realm? Now certainly I will never do that injury unto them / as once to go about to purge them of so manifest slanders / nor never be brought by the outrage of your speeches / to prove that noon day is not mydnight. And therefore as for you / I will set your conscience and you together: The reader I will desire not to think it a strange thing: For it is no other / then hath happened to the servants of God even from those which have professed the same religion / which they did / as it appeareth in Jeremiah / which was accused of certain of the Israelites / that he had conspyred with the Babylonyans their mortal enemies / and laid to his charge / that he was going to them when he was going to Benjamin.

To the. 36. 37. 38. page.

IT maketh for the purpose which is alleged out of the first of the acts / to prove / that there ought to be trial of those which are chosen to the ministry: for when S. Peter saith / that such a one must be chosen as hath been continually conversant with our savior Christ / and from the beginning of his preaching until the day wherein he ascended into heaven / he meant nothing else / but that such a one should be chosen which was sufficiently instructed and had been continually a scholar of our savior Christ / and therefore fit to teache and to witness that / which they had seen / and whose godly conversation was notoriously known.

Besides that / albeit those two Mathyas and Barsabas were therefore set up in the myddest / that the church in the prayer that was made for their election / might / by seeing them / pray the earnestlyer for them: yet it was also as much to say / that if any could object anything against them / that he should prefer his objection.

And whether they were examined or no / the matter is not great / neither when it is said that a trial should be had / it is meant / that when the parties are famously known to those which have the right of trying / as / that there should be always necessarily an apposing and examyning / so that the sufficiency of doctrine and holiness of life (for the which cause the trial and examynation is commanded) be known and agreed upon by them / that choose / it is enough.

And so these two being notoriously known and consented of by the church to be fit men / might happily not be examined / but yet the words of S. Peter declare plainly / that in the choice of them / there was regard had to both / their ability to teach / and honesty of conversation.

And although there be certain things extraordinary in this election / as / that such a one must be chosen which had been conversant with our fauioure Christ / and that there were two put up for one place / and that it was permitted to lots / to cast the Apostleship upon one of them two / as if the Lord should by the lots from heaven / tell / who should have it: yet it followeth not to say / that the rest of the things that are there used / should not be practiced in ordinary callings / for as much as they will well agree with them.

And M. Calvin in the place you allege / saith / that the ordinary callings somewhat differ from the calling of the Apostles / and after showeth wherein: that is / in that they were appointed immediately of God / and by his mouthe: whereby it appeareth / that for the residue of those things which are there mentioned / he holdeth that they may well stand with the ordinarye elections.

And where you say that the sixth of the Acts / because it speaketh of Deacons / is nothing to the matter / me think you should have easily understanded that if a trial be necessary in Deacons (which is an under office in the church / and hath regard but to one parte of the church / which is the pore / and is occupied in the distribution of money) much more it ought to be in an office of greater charge / which hath / respect to the whole church / and is occupied in the dispensing of the holy word of God.

But in the ende you agree that they / should be tried / so that now the quection standeth only / howe and by what means: wherein you for your part say / that the book of ordering ministers / is a sufficient and good rule. I have red it / and yet I cannot commend it greatly. But you will say / not with judgment or indifferency. I will promise you with this indifferency / that I wished / that all that is there / were good and conuenyent / and such as I might say unto / so be it. Wyth what judgment I do disallow it / I leave it to all men to esteem upon these reasons.

First / that the examynation of his doctrine / wholly / and partly of his life / is permitted to one man. For considering of the one parte the greatness of the charge that is committed unto the ministers / and the horrible pearill that cometh unto the church by the want of those things that are required in them and of the other parte wrighing the weakness of the nature of man / which although he seeth many things yet he is blind also in many / and that even in those things which he seeth / he suffereth him self to be carried away by his affection of love or of envy. &c. I say / considering these things it is very dangerous / to commit that to the view and search of one man / which may with loss danger and more safety be referred unto divers. For herein the proverb is true / plus vident oculi quam oculus.

And almost there is no office of charge in this realm which lieth in election / committed so slightly to any / as that upon one man's report of his ability / all the rest which have interest in the election / will give their voices / so that if we were destitute of authority of the scripture / the very light of reason would show us a more safe and weryer way.

But there is greater authority / for S. Luke in the first of the Acces / showeth that S. Peter would not take upon him / to present two as sit for the place which was void / but saith / they did present or set up: whereby appeareth / that the examynation of their ability was committed to many. The same appeareth also in the sixte of the Acts / when as the Apostles will the church wherein there were so excellent personages / to look out seven full of the holy ghost and wisdom. &c. they do not there permit the dyscerning of their wisdom and other gifts to one / but to many.

Secondarely / I cannot commend it / for that / that one man is the Archdeacon / which must examyne the pastors / and judge of their sufficiency. For what is the Archdeacon? is he not a Deacon? for he being the chief Deacon / must needs be also a Deacon him self. And therefore although the chief deacon / yet inferioure to any of the pastoures: and the * gifts which are required in him / inferioure to those which are required in the pastoure. And to make him judge of the aptness & ableness of the pastoure / is to make the inferioure in gifts / judge of the superioure: he that hath by his calling less gifts / judge of his which hath by his calling greater gifts / which is nothing else / then to appoint him that hath but one eye / to oversee his sight / that hath two.

Thirdly / I mistyke the book / because it permitteth that the Bishop may admit the minister / upon the credit and report of the Archdeacon / & upon his examination / if there be no oppositiō of the people: which appeareth by these words in the book / whereas to the Archdeacon saying thus. Reverend father in God. I present unto you these persons to be made priests. &c. The Bishop answereth. Take heed that the persons whom you present unto us / be apt and meet for their godly conversation / to exercise their ministry duly / to the honor of God and edifying of his church. And thereupon I think it cometh / that the Archdeacon is called the eye of the Bishop. But why doth not he himself take heed unto it? with what conscience can he admit a Minister / of whose fitness he knoweth not / but upon the credit of another / although he were otherwise very fit? where can he have that full persuasion that he doth well / upon the report of others / when the report of his life / and learning / is made but of one. And therefore * S. Paul ordained / that the same should be the ordeyners and the examyners / and not to hang upon the faith or report of another man / in things that are so weighty / and whereof he may him self take notice.

Fourthly / for that albeit the church is demanded whether it have anything to object / yet that church whereof he is to be pastor / & which it skilleth especially that he be fit / is not demanded / and which would (because it standeth them upon) inquire dyligently of him.

Agayne / they are demanded / which can object nothing of his insufficiency / when for the most part they never see nor heard of before / as one that came of one day unto the town / and goeth away the next.

Further / they have no reasonable space given them / wherein they may inquire or hearken out of his honest conversation: and have some experyence of his soundness in teaching and discretion and judgment to rule his flock. But if as sone as ever it be said / to those that are strangers that they should object against them / no mā stand forth to object anything / forthwith he is made a minister. And these are those things wherein I think the book of ordering Mynisters faulty / touching the trial and examynation of the ministers / which self same things are likewise of the trial of the Deacon. And so you see / that besides the faults of those that execute the law / that there be faults in the laws themselves / and therefore the cause is truly assygned / although you see it not.

And what mean you / still to use this fyghting with your own shadow? for where are the words / or what be they that condemn all the Ministers / for some? that say all the Ministers are unlawfully admitted / for some? or that there is none good / because some are bad? If there be no such words / as carry with them any such sense / then you do wrong to your brethren. If there be words that declare the clean contrary / then all men see what you be / which although you often fault in / yet I am loath so often to name and charge you with it. When it is said / that learned and unlearned are received / it is euydent that they condemn not all.

The Lord bless and increase an hundredth fold the godly / wise / learned / grave ministers of this church. And because these words seem to rock us a sleep / and to bring us into forgetfulness of the great ruins & desolations of the Church / I must tell you that two thousand able and sufficient ministers / which preach and feed dyligently / and carefully the flock of Christ / were hard to be found in this Church / which have been notwithstanding found in the Church of France / by the estimation of those which know the estate / even under the time of the cross / where there were no such helps of Magistrates / and appointed stypendes / as God be praised we have.

And again / you are to be put in mind / that a great number of those were bred in king Edward's days / so that I fear me a man need no great Arithmatike to count the numbers of such able ministers / as the late years have brought forth. And yet I am well assured / that if the ministry were reformed / and worthy men were sought for / there are great numbers of zealous and learned men / that would lay their hands to serve this kind of building by the ministry. For besides numbers that the Universities would yield / which sigh for the repairing of the decays of the church / to help forward so great a work / the Inns of Courte / and other the gentrie of the realm / Galene / and Justinian / would bring their tenths / and (as it were) pay their shot in this reckoning. It is not denied / but the testimony that a noble man which professeth the truth doth give / ought to be weighed according to his degree & place which he hath in the common wealth / but where you think / that the testimony of one wise man / learned / and godly / is sufficient warrant to proceed to an election of a Minister / you considered not well the circumspection which S. Paul used / who when he admytted Tymothe into his company / to be a companyon in his journey / to cut of all occasion of evil speech / received him not * but upon commendation of the brethren / both in Lystra and I conyum. You know they meant by the basest of the people / such as gave but one leap out of the shoppe into the Church / as suddenly are changed out of a serving man's coat / into a ministers cloke / making for the most part / the ministry their last refuge. &c. And seeing that besides / the words be plain / y ^e daily experience teacheth it / you need not make it so strange / as though you knew not what they meant.

To the next section beginning in the. 38. page.

WHat ought to be general / if this ought not / to put the minister that hath been an idolater / from his ministry? is it not a commandment of God / and given / not of one Levite or two / but of all those that went back / not at one time / but at others also / when the like occasion was given / as appeareth in the book of Kings / where all the priests of the Lord that had sacrificed in the high places / were not suffered to come to the altare in Jerusalem? Doth not S. Paul make smaller causes of deposing from the ministry then idolatry? for after he hath described what manner of men the ministers should be / and deacons / he addeth: And being tried / let them execute their functions / as long as they remain blameless. I think if so be a man had been known to be an adulterer / although he repented him / yet none that is well advised / would take him into the ministry. For if S. Paul reject him that had ii. wives at once (which was a thing that the Jews and Gentiles thought lawful / and that was common amongst them / and had prevailed throughout all the world) how much les would he suffer any to be admitted to the ministry / which should be an adulterer / and have another man's wife / which is condemned of all that profess the name of Christ / and which is not so general a mischief as that was: Or would he suffer him to abide in the ministry / which should commit such wickedness during his function / likewise of a murderer. Now the sin of Idolatry is greater & more detestable / then any of them / in as much as pertaining to the first table / it immediately stayneth God's honor / and breaketh duty to him / unto whom we more owe it (without all comparison) then to any mortal man. And if S. Paul in the choice of the widow / to attend upon the sick of the church / which was the lowest office in the church / requireth not only such a one as is at the time of the choice / honest and holy / but such a one as hath led her whole life in all good works / and with commendation / how much more is that to be observed in the minister or bishop of the church / that he be not only at the time of his choice / but all other times before such a one / as hath lived without any notable / and open offense of those / amongst whom he had his conversation.

If I should stand with you / whether Peter his forswearing that he knew not Christ / were a greater fault then to go from the gospel to idolatry / and there in / for some long space to continue / as the Levites did / I should trouble you. For if a man / suddenly and at a push / for fear / and to save his life / say and swear he is no Christian / and the same day repent him of his fault / although it be a great and heinous crime / yet it seemeth not to be so great / as his is / which not only denieth Christ in words / but doth it also in deeds / and worshippeth Antichrist / and continueth in that worship / not a day / but months / and years.

But I will answer you / that even as our savior Christ called S. Paul in the heat of his persecution / & whē he was a blasphemer unto the Apostleship / so he having the law in his own hands / and making no laws for him self / but for us / might call S. Peter also to that function / which had thrice denied him.

But as it is not lawful for us / to follow the example of Christ in calling of Paul / by admitting those which are new converted / having a contrary precept given / that no * new plant / or green Christian / should be taken to the ministry: So is it not lawful / to follow that example of our savior Christ / the contrary being commanded / as I have before alleged. For albeit the examples of our savior Christ be to be followed of us / yet if there be commandments general to the contrary / then we must know / that it is our partes to walk in the broad and beaten way / as it were the common caussie of the commandment / rather then an outpathe of the example.

I know Ambrose was taken newly from Paganism / to be bishop of Millaine / for the great estimatiō & credit he had amongst the people / but besides that I have shown / that such things are unlawful being forbidden. The errors and corrupt expounding of scriptures / which are found in his works / declare that it had been more safe for the church / if by study of the scriptures / he had first been a scholar of dyuinitie / or ever he had been made doctor. There may be more examples shown out of that / which you call the prymitiue church / to the contrary of that which you say. For when they used often times against those that had so fallen such severity (in deed extreme and excessive) that they were never after / until their deaths admitted to the Lord's table: I leave to you to think / whether they would then suffer any such to execute the function of the ministry. Besides that S. Cyprian hath also a special treatise of this / that those that have sacrificed to idols / should not be permitted anymore to minister in the church. But you ask what they say to M. Luther / Bucer / Crannier / Latimer / Ridley? I pray you when did these excellent personages / ever slide from the gospel unto idolatry? which of them did ever say Mass / after God had opened them the truth? what hath so blinded you that you cannot distinguish and put a difference / between one that having been nousled from his youth up in idolatry / cometh afterwards out of it / and between him / which having knowledge of the gospel / afterward departeth from it / and of such is the place of Ezekiel / of such I say / as have gone back and fallen away.

I know none / that have been preachers of the gospel / and after in the time of Queen Mary malsemongers / which now are zealous / godly / & learned preachers / and if there be any such / I think for offense sake / the Church might better be without them then have them. You say God in that place showeth how grievous a sin idolatry is / in the priests especially. And is it not now more grievous in the minister of the gospel / whose function is more precious and knowledge greater? And if the sin be greater / should it have now a less punishment / then it had then? how shall the fault be esteemed great or little / but by y ^e greatness or smallness of the punishment? you said before the places of Deuteronomy / touching adding and diminishing nothing from that which the Lord commandeth / were for the Jews / and are not for our times. And this commandment of God in Ezekiel / you say / served for that time / and not for ours.

You work a sure way / which to maintain your corruptions / deny the scripture / which speaketh against them / to be understanded of those which be in our time / and that to be understanded of our ministers / which was of theirs / or of our faults / which was of theirs. Thys is not the way to Anabaptism / but to all heresies / and schisms / that ever have been or shall be. For if you go forward in clipping the scripture / as you begin / you will leave us nothing in the ende / wherewith we may either defend our selves against heretics / or be able to strike at them.

Whereas you say / there is a great difference / between the severity of the law / and lenity of the gospel / me thinks I smell a spice of the error of the Manichees / which were also scholars in that behalf of the old heretic Cerdon / that there is a good and an evil / a gentle and a severe God / one under the law / and another under the gospel. For to say that God was then a severe punysher of sin / and that now he is not at so great hatred with it / but that he will have it gentlyer and softlyer dealt with: is even all one in effect with that / which supposeth two God's. I will join with you in it / that the transgressyons of the law in the time of the gospel ought rather to be seuerelyer punished / then they were under the law / for as much as the knowledge is greater / and the abundance of the spirit of God / whereby the laws are kept is more plentiful / then under the law.

At this time I will content me with the place of Zach. which prophesying of the kingdom of Christ / and of the time of the gospel saith / that then the father and mother of the false Prophet shall cause their own son to be put to death. It is as absurd which is brought / to prove that the papists which worship God falsely / do not fault so heinously as the Israelites did / which worshipped the Idolles. As who should say / the Jews or any other the grossest idolaters that ever were / did ever take those things which they worshipped / Serpentes / Oxen / Fire / Water. &c. to be God / or knew not the Images before which they fell down / were Woode or Stone / Silver and Gold. And who knoweth not / that they thought that they worshipped by them and in them / the God which made heaven & earth. The Jews when they molted a golden calf / and fell down before it / did never think that to be God / * but said that they would keep holy day to the Lord Jehovah. Wherein I will put you over to y ^e learned treatises of the godly new writers / which do refute this distinction being brought of the papists / as a shift to prove that the Idolatry which is forbidden in the old Testament / toucheth not them / because they worship God by these things / and the idolatrous Jews and infidels / worshipped nothing else / nor looked at nothing else / thē the bare things before which they fell down. Which self same distinction you bring to prove / that papistry is not so detestable / as the idolatry of the Jews. It may be / that certain of the Gentiles worshipped by their images / Jupiter and Juno. &c. but you cannot show / that the Israelites ever worshipped any other God / then the true God / so that their fault was only / in that they worshipped him otherwise / then he had appointed. And the Gentiles that worshipped many God's / worshipped one as the head and chief / and the rest as small companions / and as they termed them / minorum gentium deos, as the papists do God as the chief / and the saints as other petty gods.

And here all men may see / what a good proctor you be for the papists / both in lestning their faults / and abating their punishments / and yet will not I say / that you are conspired with them / or have received your see of them. But if you can show where / or in what one point / those that you charge with confederacy / have laid so soft pillows under their heads as these are: they refuse not to be called confederate and conspired with the papists.

To the next section in the. 40. page.

WHat should become of the people in the mean season / whilst they learn their Catechism / and when they have learned it / they are no more fit to be Ministers and to teach other / then he that hath learned his Accidence / is meet to set up a school. And it cannot be defended / but it was a gross over sight / to enjoin ministers to learn a Catechism. It were much to compel them to read it. And if a man would have declamed against the ignorance of the most part of the ministers / three whole days together / he could not have said more against them / then that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion. How know you / that they quote the Catechism in the margent in derision? is there any syllable or letter that soundeth that ways? if you conjecture it because they have set it in the margent / you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision / being also placed there.

But how followeth this? it is meet that ministers should learn every day / therefore it is meet they be enjoined to learn Cathechismes? it is meet they should read Cathechismes / therefore meet to learn them / and be enjoined to learn them? is there nothing worthier the learning and profession of the minister / then to learn Cathechismes? or doth a man learn those things always / which he readeth? doth he not read things some time to record the things that he hath learned. For because they say it is not meet that ministers should be enjoined to learn a Catechism / you conclude of their words / that they would not have a minister to learn / or to read anything / which is as far from their meaning or words either / as you are from the reasonable and upright expounding of them.

To the two next sections in the. 41. and. 42. page.

IT hath been likewise shown / what was in that election extraordinary / and what pertaineth to the ordinary callings. And in the .vi. of the Acts it was shown / that if the Deacons should not be thrust upon the congregation against the will of it / much less ought the minister. And if that congregation had by the commandment of the Apostles an interest in the choice of their governors / I see not why the same commandment remaineth not to be followed of other churches. Your reasons wherewith you would make difference / shall be after considered.

The Answer to the next section / being the 43. page. and until (I add) which is in the 44. page.

VNto these places of the first and sixthe of the Acts is added / first the place of the fourtenth of the Acts / where the authors of the admonition do prove / that the election ought not to be in one man his hand / but ought to be made by the church / against which M. Doctor taketh three exceptions. The first is / for that it is said that Paul and Barnabas ordained Elders / whereby he would conclude / that the congregations had nothing to do. But how siender a reason that is / it may be considered of infinite places in the scripture / whereof I will recite two or three.

In the fifthe Chapter of Joshua it is said / that Joshua made him sharp knives for the circumcising of the children of Israel / and a little after that Joshua circumcised them. Shall we now upon these words conclude / that Joshua did make the knives himself / or was a cutler / or being made to his hand / did whet them and sharpen them / or shall we say that he did circumcise the children of Israel / in his own person and him self alone / when as that was done by many / and by the Levites to whom that office appertained? no / but the scripture declareth / that Joshua procured sharp knives to be made / and exhorted and commanded the people to be circumcised.

In Exodus / it is said / that Moses did appoint unto the people / Princes / Captains over thousands and hundreds. &c. And if any conclude thereupon / that he did it him self alone / he is by and by confuted by that which is written in Deuteronomy / where it appeareth / that the people did choose them / and presented them to Moses. What is it then that is said in Exodus that Moses appointed them / but that Moses assembled the people / and exhorted them to appoint rulers / and told them what manner of men they should be / and in a word / sat as it were moderatour in that election?

To come to the new Testament: In the Acts it is said that Paul and Timothy delivered unto the churches the orders and decrees of the Apostles and elders / and yet it appeareth in another place / that the Church had also to do / and gave their consent unto the making of those decrees / so that the former place meaneth / that the Apostles and Elders did go before / and were the chief / and directors of that action.

The same manner of speech is used of the Roman stories / wherein it is said that the Consul did make Magistrates / for because that he gathered the assembly and voices whereby they were made: and so S. Luke saith here / that Paul and Barnabas ordained / because they being the moderators of the Election / caused it to be made / assembled the churches / told them of the necessity of having good pastors and governors / gathered the voices / took heed that nothing should be done lightly / nothing tumultuously / or out of order. And so to conclude / it is an evil reason to say as M. Doctor doth / that because S. Luke hath / that Paul and Barnabas ordained / therefore the people were excluded.

And I marvel with what conscience he could answer so in this place / especially where it is forthwith added / that they ordained them by the suffrages and voices of the church. But you say that the Greek word cheirotonein, is by the common opinion of almost all Ecclesiastical writers / used in the scripture for the solemn manner of ordaining of ministers by the imposition of hands / which is the second exception you take to this reason. Wherein / but that I have promised to hold myself to the matter / and that these bold asseuerances in matters most untrue / are so common / that if I should every foot pursue them / I should weary myself and all others / I could not keep myself from running out to marvel at such high speeches / void of truth. First / where you say that some translation hath / that they ordained ministers without making mention of election / what have you gained thereby / when I can show mo that translate it otherwise / and say it is that they ordained by election / or voices / or suffrages? I had not the commoditye of books / whereby I could see the judgment of all Ecclesiastical writers. But of those which I had / I find that there was but one only M. Gwalther of that mind / and yet he doth not shut out the people's consent in the election. Master Calvin / M. Beza / M. Bullinger / M. Musculus / M. Brenz / he that translated Chrysostom upon that place / Erasmus in his Paraphrases upon that place / are of the contrary judgment / of whose judgment I would not have spoken / if you would not have gone about thus to abuse youre reader / with such manifest untruths / to overthrow the order which God hath established.

But let all authorities of men go / and let us examine the thing in itself. If so be that the holy ghust had meant the solemn putting on of the hands upon the heads of him that was created elder and minister / had he not words enough to utter this his meaning? would he have / for laying on of hands / used a word that signifieth lifting up of hands? would he have used a word signifying holding up for laying down? for when the hands are laid of the head of another / they are laid down / and not holden up. There are words in the old Testament / and in the new / before S. Luke wrote / and after he wrote / to express this ceremony of laying on of hands / and yet none have ever expressed this.

S. Paul speaketh thrice of it in his Epistles to Timothy / and always he useth epithesis ton cheiron. In the Old Testament where this ceremony is used and spoken of / the Septuaginta did never translate cheirotonein. But as the writers of the new Testament epithesis cheiron. And what should I stand in this / when as S. Luke him self / both before and after / speaking of that ceremony of laying on of hands / doth never use this word cheirotonein, but the same word which s. Paul useth / and the Septuaginta? and although the holy ghost speak properly and well by whomsoever he speaketh / yet it could have ben worst of all said by S. Luke of all the Canonical writers / that he should speak thus improperly / who of them all writeth moste purely and elegantly / according to the phrase of the moste eloquent Grecians / and therefore he borrowed this speech of the ancient Greek writers / which did use to express their elections by this word / because they were made / and voices given / by this Ceremony of lifting up of hands.

But what if S. Luke have used this word before / and in this book / in the signification of choosing by voice / dare you then say that he useth it here for putting on of hands? In the Acts / S. Peter saith that Christ after his resurrection / appeared not unto the whole people / but unto those whom he had before chosen by his voice to be his witnesses / he useth this word procecheirotonemenous. Now if you will say here / that it is to be turned / those of whom he laid his hands / I will ask you where you read that ever he laid his hands of their heads / I will show you where he did by his heavenly voice appoint thē. And I think you are not able to show in any Greek author ancient / & which men do take to be autenticall / to teache the property or eloquence of the Greek tongue / I mean which were before S. Luke his time / where the word cheirotonein, is taken for the laying on of hands of the head of any.

Thys I confess that the Greek Ecclesiastical writers / have sometimes used it so / but you must remember that S. Luke could not learn to speak of them that came two or three hundredth years after him / but he borrowed this phrase of speech of those that were before him / and therefore speaketh of elections as they did. So that you see this shift will not serve.

Let us therefore see your third: which is / that although the Churches consent was then required / yet is it not now / and that it is no general rule / no more then (say you) that all things should be therefore common now / because they were in the Apostles time.

The authors of the Admonition / with their favorers / must be counted Anabaptists / no one word being shown which tendeth thereunto / you must accuse them which confirm that foundation whereof they build their community of all things / which is one of their chief heresies. If I should say now that you are like to those that row in a boat / which although they loke backwards / yet they thrust a nother way / I should speak with more likelihode thē you have done. For although you make a countenance / and speak hotly against Anabaptists / yet in deed you strengthen their hands with reasons. But I will not say so / neither do I think that you favor that sect / but only the whirlwind and tempest of your affection bent to maintain this estate / whereby you have so great honor and wealth / driveth you upon these rocks to wrack yourself on / and others.

For I pray you what community is spoken of either in the second / third / or fourth of the Acts / which ought not to be in the church / as long as y ^e world standeth? was there any community but as touching the use / and so far for the as the pore brethren had need of / and not to take every man a like? was it not in any man his power to sell his houses or lands / or not to sell them? When he had sold them / was it not in every man his liberty / to keep the money to himself at his pleasure? and all they that were of the Church / did not sell their possessions / but those whose hearts the Lord touched singularly with the compassion of the need of others / and whom God had blessed with abundance / that they had to serve them selves / and help others / and therefore it is reckoned as a rare example / that * Barnabas the Cyprian and Levite did sel his possessions / and brought the price to the feet of the Apostles.

And as for Ananias & Sapphira / they were not punished for because they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles / but because they lied / saying that they had brought the whole / when they had brought but parte. And to be short / is there anymore done there / then S. Paul prescribeth to the Corinthians / and in them to all churches to the worlds end? After he had exhorted to liberality towards the pore church in Jerusalem / not (saith he) that other should be relieved and you oppressed / but upon like condition at this time / your abundance supplieth their lack / that also their abundance may be for youre lack / that there might be equality / as it is written / he that gathered much / had nothing over / and he that gathered little / had not the les.

Surely / it were better you were no Doctor in the Church / then that the Anabaptists should have such hold to bring in their community as you give them. In sum / the Apostolic community / or the Churches in their time was not Anabaptistical.

Unto the place of the seconde Epistle to the Corinthians / and. 8. chapter / you ask what maketh that to the election of the ministers / but why do not you say here / as you did in the other place that the apostle meaneth nothing else but the putting on of the hands of them which ordained / for the same word cheirotonetheis is here used / that was there / and this place doth manifestly and without all contradiction convince your vain signification that you make of it in the other place / and the untruth / saying that the scripture useth this word for a solemn manner of ordering ministers by putting on of hands. For here it is said that he that was joined with Paul / was cheirotonetheis by the church / and it is manifest that the imposition of hands was not by the church & people / but by the elders and ministers / as it appeareth in s. Paul to Timothy.

Now / to come to that which you make so light of / for say you how followeth this / the church chose Luke or Barnabas to be companion of Paul his journey: Ergo, the churches must choose their ministers? It followeth very well / for if it were thought • meet / that Saynte Paul should not choose him self of his own authority a companion to help him being an Apostle / is there any archbishop that shall dare take upon him to make a minister of the gospel / being so many degrees (both in authority / and in all gifts needful to discern and try out / or take knowledge of a sufficient minister of the gospel) inferioure to S. Paul?

And if S. Paul would have the authority of the church to ordain the Minister that should aid him in other places for the gathering of relief of the poor Churches / howe much more did he think it meet / that the Churches should choose their own Minister / which should govern them. Which things may be also said of the election in the first of the Acts: for there the Church first chose two / whereof one should be an Apostle / which should not be Minister of that Church / but should be sent into all the world. So that always the Apostles have shunned to do anything of their own willes / without the knowledge either of those churches where they instituted any governors: or if it were for the behofe of those places where there were no churches gathered / yet would they ordain none / but by the consent of some other church / which was already established. You will not deny / but that in the Apostles time / and S. Cyprians time in many places the consent of the people was required / show any one place where it was not?

Dothe not S. Luke say / that it was done church by church / that is in every church? And where you say it endured but to S. Cyprians time / it shall appear to all men / that it endured in the church a thousand year and more after his time. And it appeareth in y ^t he used it not as a thing indifferent / but necessary / and argueth the necessity of it / of the place of the first of the Acts / which is alleged by the authors of the Admonition / and so they are not their arguments that you throw up so scornfully: saying / how followeth this / and this / what proveth it / but Cyprians / whom by their sides you thrust through / and so unreverantly handle. But you say these examples are no general rules. Examples of all the Apostles / in all churches / and in all purer times / vncontrolied and vnretracted / either by any the primitive and purer churches / or by any rule of the scripture / I think ought to stand. If it were a private example of one / or in one place alone / or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture / then the example were not always safe to follow. But what if there be commandment also?

In the book of Numbers / the Lord commandeth that the Levites which preached the word of God to the people in their several congregations should be brought before the Lord and before the people / and the people should lay their hands upon the Levites heads: which / what other thing is it / then to declare their liking of them / and by that ceremony to consecrate them / and set them apart for that use of their ministry? And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands / I grant you: but so he speaketh / because the approbatiō was by all / and some in the name of the rest declared that / by their laying on of hands.

But me thinketh I hear your old answer / that this pertaineth not unto us / being a thing done under the law: but take heed what you say / for if you will admit neither the general examples of the new Testament / nor the commandments and examples of the Olde / take heed that you do not or ever you be aware / spoil us of the chief and principal pillars and buttresses of our religion / and bring us to plain Catabaptistrie / which you say you are so afraid of.

For to prove the Baptism of children and young infantes / what stronger hold have we / then that God commanded in the Old Testament / y ^e they should be circumcised / and examples thereof in the new Testament / for that the Apostles baptized whole families / whereby all likelihood there were children. Now / we say that there is this commandment in the old Testament / of the ministers / and there are examples in the new Testament general and through out / why should it not then be necessary in this / as well as in the other? Besides that / in the. 6. of the Acts / the Apostles command that the church should seek them out Deacons / whom they might appoint over the poor.

Touching certain Ceremonies / I have shown that they are necessary: as namely the Sacraments.

And as for Discipline and government / I have shown partly / and more hereafter will be shown / that they are of the substance of the gospel / if to have Excommunication / be to have Discipline / or if to have pastors or Bishops / and Doctors / and Deacons / be government of the Church. You say / that howsoever in the Apostles time this use was of having the consent of the church in the choice of their pastor or bishop / now in this estate it were moste pernicious and hurtful. Wherein / see how unadvisedly you condemn the churches of Geneva / of all France / of certain of the German churches / which keep this order. But you allege your reasons / therefore those those are to be considered / because they come so rare. For your manner is / that if you can have but one writer / new / or old of your side / or which seemeth to be of your side? you run away with the matter / as though you had scripture / reason / doctors / and all.

I will therefore then take a view of your reasons / when as I shall have briefly set down those reasons / whereby the perpetual equity / reasonablenes / and conveniency of this order / that the church should have a stroke in her ministers election may appear.

It is said amongst the Lawyers / and in deed reason / which is the law of all nations / confirmeth it. Quod omnium interest, ab omnibus approbari debet. That which standeth all men upon / should be approved of all men. Which law hath this sense / that if it may be / it were good that those things which shall bind all men / and which require the obedience of all / should be concluded as far as may be / by the consent of all / or at least by the consent of as many as may be gotten. And therefore it draweth much the obedience of the subjects of this realm / that the statutes whereby the realm is governed / pass by the consent of the moste parte of it / whilst they be made by them / whom the rest put in trust / and choose for that purpose / being as it were all their acts.

So is it also when the question is to choose the magistrate / Mayor / or bailiff / or Constable of every town / which things if they have good grounds in civil affairs / they have much better in Ecclesiastical. For it is much more unreasonable that there should be thrust upon me / a gouernoure of whom the everlasting salvation or damnation both of my body and soul doth depend / then him of whom my wealth and commoditye of this life doth hang. Unless those upon whom he were thrust / were fools / or mad men / or children / without all discretion of ordering them selves / which as I will show / cannot agree with those / that are the church of god / and are to have a pastor. For they of the church of God / although they be called sheep in respect of their simplicitye and harmelesnes / yet are they also for their circumspection wise as serpents / in the wisdom especially which is to salvation: and how vile accompt so ever you will make of of them / they are the people of God / and therefore spiritual / and forthwith those of whom S. Paul saith / the spiritual man discerneth all things.

Moreover / reason and experience teacheth / that it maketh much to the profiting of the church under the hand of the pastor or bishop / that the church love him and reverence him: For the contempt and hatred of the minister for the most parte / standeth not in his own person / but reacheth even unto the doctrine which he teacheth. But the minister that the church desireth / it commonly best loveth and moste reverenceth / and of the other side hateth and contemneth him / that is thrust upon them / therefore it maketh much to the profiting of the people in the doctrine of the gospel / that the minister come in / by their consent. Likewise / the people must by S. Paul his rule / follow the good example of the minister: but men will not likely follow their examples / whom they love not / nor love them / which are thrust upon them against their willes / therefore it standeth with the good conversation and godly following of the steppes of the minister / that he be with the consent of the Church.

And if it should happen (which may come to pass) that any church should desire or choose / or consent upon by the most part / some that is unmeet / either for doctrine or manners / then the ministers and elders of the other churches round about / should advertise first / and afterward as occasion should serve / sharply and severely charge / that they forbear such election / or if it be made / that they confirm it not / by suffering him to exercise any ministry. And if either the churches round about do fail of this duty / or the church which is admonished / rest not in their Admonition / then to bring it to the next Synod / and if it rest not therein / then the Prince or Magistrate / which must see that nothing in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done / ought to drive that church from that election to another which is convenient. Now I will examine the reasons which you add to prove / that although in times past the church chose their ministers / yet now it must be otherwise.

To the first difference in the. 44. page.

YOu say it was in the Apostles times under the cross / and therefore few / and so might easily know one another / who were fit for the ministry: But you forget yourself marvelously. For in the Apostles times / the church I mean visible and sensible (for else how could it be persecuted) was sown not only through out all Asia (which is the greatest part of the world) but through a great part of Africa / and no small portion of Europe: and now it is shut in a small corner of Europe / being altogether banished out of Asia and Africa. And therefore there are not the tithe now / of those that professed the gospel then / and what a conclusion is this / the churches were few in number / because they were under the cross. For to let pass both other scriptures and stories ecclesiastical / have you forgotten that which is said in Exodus / that the more the children of Israel were pressed and persecuted / the more they multiplied? Thē you say they kept together / and met often / and so knowing one another / were best able to judge one of another. But herein you speak as one that hath small experience of persecuted churches / for in the time of persecution / the Christians that were in one great city / were fain to gather them selves out of all the corners / and from all the ends of the City / to one place / being not able to devide them selves into many parishes / both for other considerations / and because they were not able to maintain many ministers / and elders / and Deacons / whereby it may be understand / that by all likelihood in one great city / they had but one congregation / and therefore that must needs be scattered here and there / and so could not have the commoditye either of often meeting / or of knowing one another so well / as where such a city is divided into many churches. Those that know the estate of France in the time of persecution / do well understand that every church almost was gathered of towns / whereof some were six miles / some seven / some more / from the place of meeting / and keeping their congregations. And therefore could not meet so often / nor know one another so well / as we / by the grace of God may do / which meet oftener / and in les number then they do.

To the next section in the 45.

THose that write the Centuries / suspect this Canon / and doubt whether it be a bastard or no / considering the practice of the church: But here or ever you were aware / you have stricken at yourself. For before you said / that this order of choosing the minister by voices of the church / was but in the Apostles time / and during the time of persecution. And the first time you can allege this liberty to be taken away / was in the 334. year of our Lord / which was at the least 31. years after that Constantine the great began to reign. I say at the least / because there be good authors that say / that this Council of Laodicea was holden Anno. 338. after the death of Jovinian the Emperor / and so there is 35. years between the beginning of Constantine's reign / and this council. Now I think you will not say that the Church was under persecution in Cōstantines time. And therefore you see you are greatly deceived in your account.

And if it be as lawful for us to use master Calvin's authority / which both by example and writings hath always defended our cause / as it is for you to wryng him and his words / to things which he never meant / and the contrary whereof he continually practiced / then this authority of yours is dashed. For master Calvin saith / where as it is said in that council / that the election should not be permitted to the people / it meaneth nothing else but that they should make no election / without having some ministers or men of judgment / to direct them in their election / and to gather their voices / and provide that nothing be done tumultuously / even as Paul and Barnabas were chief in the election of the churches. And even the same order would we have kept in elections continually for avoiding of confusion / for as we would have the liberty of the Church preserved / which Christ hath bought so dearly from all tyranny / so do we again condemn and utterly abhor all barbarous confusion and disorder.

But if councils be of so great authority to decide this controversy / then the most famous council of Nice will strike a great stroke with you / which in an Epistle that it writeth unto the Church of Egypt (as Theodoret maketh mention) speaketh thus. It is meet that you should have power both to choose any man / and to give their names which are worthy to be amongst the clergy / and to do all things absolutely according to the law and decrees of the church. And if it happen any to die in the church / then those which were last taken / are to be promoted to the honor of him that is dead / with this condition / if they be worthy / and the people choose them / and the bishop of the city of Alexandria together giving his consent / and appointing them.

An other of the famousest councils / called the council of Constantinople / which was gathered under Theodosius y ^e great (as it is witnessed by the * Tripartite story) in an Epistle which it wrote to Damasus the pope / and Ambrose and others / saith thus. We have ordained Nectarius the bishop of Constantinople / with the whole consent of the counsel / in the sight of the Emperor Theodosius beloved of God / the whole City together decreeing the same. Likewise he saith that Flauian was appointed by that synod / bishop of Antioch / the whole people appointing him.

Likewise in the council of Carthage where Augustine was / holden about anno domini 400. in the first canon of the council it is said / when he hath been examined in all these / and found fully instructed / then let him be ordained Bishop by the common consent of the clerks and the lay people / and the Bishops of the province / and especially either by the authority or presence of the metropolitan.

And in the Toletane council / as it appeareth in the 51. distinction / it was thus ordained. Let not him be counted a priest of the Church (for so they speak) whom neither the clergy nor people of that city where he is a priest doth choose / nor the consent of the metropolitan & other priests in that province hath sought after.

Moreover / concilium Cabilonense which was holden anno domini. 650. in the tenth Canon / hath this. If any Bishop after the death of his predecessor be chosen of any but of the bishops in the same province / and of the clergy & citizens / let another be chosen / and if it be otherwise / let that ordination be accounted of none effect. All which councils prove manifestly / that as y ^e people in their elections had the ministers round about / or synodes & counceiles directing them / so there was none came to be over the people / but by their voices or consentes.

To the next section in the 45. page: Thys alteration. &c.

IN deed if you put such dark coleures upon the Apostles church as this is / it is no marvel if it ought not to be a patron to us of framing and fashioning our church after it. But O Lord who can patiently hear this horrible disorder / ascribed to the Apostles church / which here you attribute unto it: that everyone hand over head preached / baptized / and expounded the Scriptures. What a window / nay / what a gate is opened here to Anabaptists / to confirm their fantastical opinion / wherein they hold / that every man whom the spirit moveth / may come even from the ploughe tail to the pulpit to preach the word of God. If you say it is Ambrose saying and not yours / I answer / unless you allow it / why bring you it / and that to prove the difference between the Apostles times and these. For if it be false (as it is most false) then there is no difference here between the Apostles times and ours. Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare / and hath it not been proved / that there was none that took upon him the ministry in the church / but by lawful calling? what is this but to cast dust and dirte of the fairest and beautifullest image that ever was / to make a smokie / disfigured / evil proportioned image to seem beautiful / to overthrow the Apostles buildings of gold and silver and precious stones / to make a cottage of wode / straw / and stubble / to have some estymation / which could have none / the other standing. For in effect so you do / when (to uphold a corrupt use that came in by the tyranny of the pope) you go about to discredit the orders and institutions which were used in the Apostles times? and that with such manifest untruths.

To the next section in the. 45. page: Musculus also. &c.

THe place is too common which you assign / you had I am sure the book before you / you might have told where the place was / and in what title. But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate / is answered by him self in the same book / where he entreateth of the election of the ministers. For going about (as it seemeth) to satisfy some of their ministers / which were brought in doubt of their calling / because they were not chosen by their churches / speaking of the use of the church in choosing their minister / he saith thus.

First / it must be plainly confessed / that the ministers were in times past chosen by consent of the people / and ordained and confirmed of the semores.

Secondarily / that that form of election was Apostolical and lawful.

Thirdly / that it was conformable to the liberty of the church / and that thrusting the pastor upon the church / not being chosen of it / doth agree to a church that is not free but subject to bondage.

Fourthly / that this form of choice by the church maketh much both to that / that the minister may govern his flock with a good conscience / as also that the people may yield them selves to be eastyer ruled / then when one cometh against their willes unto them.

And to conclude all these / he saith that they are altogether certain / and such as cannot be denied. After he saith that the corrupt estate of the church and religion driveth to alter this order / and to call the election to certain learned men / which should after be confirmed of the Prince. And that it may yet more clearly appear that his judgment is nothing less then to confirm this election / he setteth down their election in Bernland / which he approveth and laboreth to make good / as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the prymitine church / yet cometh very near unto it: As that not one man but all the ministers in the city of Berne / do choose a pastor when there is any place void.

Afterward he is sent to the Senate / from the which / if he be doubted of / he is sent again to the ministers / to be examined / and then if they find him meet / he is confirmed of the Senate / (which standeth of some number of the people) and by the most part of their voices. By these things it appeareth / that this election of the minister by the people / is lawful and Apostolic / and confessed also by him / that those that are otherwise / bring with them subjection unto the church / and servitude / and carry a note and mark of corruption of religion.

Last of all / that he goeth about to defend the election used in the churches where he was minister / by this / that it approached unto the election in the primitive Church. Now what cause there may be / that we should bring the church into bondage / or take away that order whereby both the minister may be better assured of his calling / and the people may the willinglyer submit them selves unto their pastoures and governors / or what cause to depart from the Apostolic form of the choice of the pastor being lawful / I confess I know not / and would be glad to learn.

To assign the cause hereof unto the Christian magistrate / & to say / that these things cannot be had under him (as you / under master Muscuius name / do affirm) is to do great injury unto the office of the magistrate / which abridgeth not the liberty of the church / but defendeth it / dimmisheth not the pastor his assurance of his calling / but rather increaseth it / by establishing the ordinary callings only / which in the time of persecution sometimes are not so ordinary / withdraweth not the obedience of the people from y ^e pastor / but urgeth it / where it is not / & constrayneth it / where it is not voluntary. And seeing that also Musculus saith / that these forced elections are remedies for corruption of religion / and disordered states / what greater dishonoure can there be done unto the holy institution of God in the civil gouernoure / then to say that these forced elections without the consent of the people must be / where there is a Christian Magistrate: as though there could be no pure religion under him / when as in deed it may be easily under him pure / which can hardly / and with great danger / be pure without him. And when as it is said / that the churches consent should be had in the election of the minister / we do not deny the confirmation of the elections unto the godly civil magistrate / and the disannulling of them / if the church in choosing / and the ministers in directing / shall take any unfit man / so that yet / he do not take away the liberty from the church / of choosing a more convenient man.

So that you see / that by Musculus your witness reasons / this enforced election without the consent of the people / is but corrupt / and so ought not to be in the church. And that although it hath been borne withal / yet it must be spoken against / and the lawful form of election labored for / of all those that love the truth / and the sincerity thereof.

To the next section in the. 46. page.

NOw you would prove that this election of ministers by one man was in the Apostles time. But you have forgotten yourself / which said a little before / that this election by the church / was not only in the Apostles times / but also in the time of Cyprian: now you say otherwise. And if the election of the ministry by the church agree so well with the time of persecution / and when there is no Christian Magistrate / how cometh it to pass / that in those days when persecution was so hot / and there were no such Magistrates / that S. Paul would have the election by one man / and not by the church. Besydes that / if this be S. Paul his commandment / that the bishop should only choose the minister / why do you make it an indifferent thing / and a thing in the power of the church to be varied by times / for this is a flarte commandment. Thus you see you throw down with one hand / as fast as you build with the other. But to answer directly to the place of the fifthe of the first to Timothy.

I say first / that S. Paul writeth to Timothy / and therefore instructeth him what he should do for his parte in the appointing of the minister. If he had written to the whole Church of Ephesus / he would likewise have instructed them how they should have behaved thē selves in that business. If one do write unto his friend / that hath interest in any election / to take heed that he choose none but such as are meet / shall any man conclude thereupon / that none hath to do in that election / but he to whom that letter is writ̄? Then I say further / that S. Paul attributeth that unto Timothy / that was common to moe with him / because he being the director and moderator of the election / is said to do that which many do: which thing I have proved by divers examples both out of the scripture / and otherwise before. And even in this imposition of hands / it is manifestly to be shown. For that where as S. Paul saith in the 2. Epistle / that Timothy was ordained by the putting on of his hands upon him / in the first Epistle he saith / that he was ordained by the putting on of the hands of the eldership. So that that which he in one place taketh to him self alone / in the other he communicateth with moe. And that he did it not him self alone / it may appear by those words which follow (and communicate not with other men's sins) as if he should say / if other will ordain insuffycient ministers / yet be not thou carried away with their example. And further that his authority was equal with other elders of that church / and that he had no superiority above his fellows / it may appear / for that he saith lay thy hands rashly of none / where if he had had authority over the rest / he would rather have said / suffer none to lay his hands rashly. Agayne / it is a fault in you / that you cannot distinguish or put difference between the election and imposition of hands.

Last of all / I answer that although this might agree to Timothy alone / as in deed it cannot / yet it followeth not that every Bishop may do so. For Timothy was an Evangelist / which was above a Bishop / as hereafter shall better appear. And it is an evil argument to say the greater may do it / therefore the less may do it. The superior / therefore the inferioure. If you were at any cost with producing your witnesses / you should not be so unwise to be so lauishe of them / as to cite Ambrose / and Chrysostom / to prove a thing that none hath ever denied. For who denieth that S. Paul doth not give warning to Timothy to be circumspect? If you mean to use their testimony to prove that he only made the elections / they say never a word for you / if there be anything / cite it. To the place of Titus / I answer as to that of Timothy / for there is nothing there / but agreeth also to this place. And as for Jerome he hath nothing in that place / as he hath in no other / to prove that to the Bishop only / doth belong the right of election of the minister.

I have shown you reasons before / why it cā not be so taken of the sole election of the Bishop / the church being shut out. If authority would do any good in this behalf / as it seemeth it ought / seeing that all your proof through out the whole book / is in the authorities of men / (which Aristotle calleth atechnas peiseis, vncunning proofs) I could send you to master Calum / which teacheth / that it is not to be thought that S. Paul would permit to Titus to ordain bishops and ministers by his own authority / when he him self would not take so much upon him / but joined his with the voices of the church. But he peradventure savoreth not your taste / and yet you would make men believe sometimes / that you make much of him if you can get but one word vnioynted / and racked in pieces from the rest / to make good your part. If he weyghe not with you / you have master Musculus / whom you take to be a great patron of yours in this cause / which doth with greater vehemency affirm the same thing that master Calvin saith / asking whether any man can believe that Paisle permitted in this place to Titus / or in the place before alleged to Timothy / that they should ordain of their own authority / and by them selves / when as Paul would not do it but by the voices and election of the church.

In the ende you say it is the general consent of all the learned fathers / that it belongeth to the bishop to choose the minister. Because you acquaint my ears with such bold and untrue affirmations / I can now the more patiently hear you thus vaunting yourself / as though you had all the fathers by heart / and carried them about with you / wheresoever you went / whereas / if a man would measure you by the skill in them which you have shown here / he would hardly believe that you had red the tenthe part of them.

Are all the learned fathers of that mind? I think then you would have been better advised then to have set down but one / when as you know a matter in controversy / will not be tried but by two or three witnesses / unless the Lord speak him self / and therefore you give me occasion to suspect that because you cite but one / you know of no more: now let us see what your one witness will depose in this matter.

And first of all you have done more wisely then simply / in that you have altered Jerome's words. For where he saith / wherein doth a bishop differ from an elder / but only in ordaining: you say a bishop doth excel all other ministers. &c. I report me here unto your conscience / whether you did not of purpose change Jerome's his sentence / because you would not let y ^e reader understand what odds is between S. Jerome's bishops in his days / & between our Lord Bishops. For then the bishop had nothing above an elder or other minister / but only the ordaining of the minister. Now he hath a thousand parishes / where the minister hath but one. For the matters also of the substance of the ministry / the bishop now excommunicateth / which the minister cannot / absolveth or receiveth into the church / which the minister cannot. Besides diverse other things which are mere civil which the bishop doth / and which neither bishop nor other minister ought to do. I say I report me to your conscience / whether you altered Jerome's words to this ende / that you would keep this from the knowledge of your reader or no. For answer to the place / it is an evil argument to say the bishop had the ordaining of the minister. Ergo he had the election of him / the contrary rather is a good argument / the bishop had the ordaining of the minister / therefore he had not the election of him. For ordination and election are divers members of one whole / which is the placing of the pastor in his church / and one member cannot be verified of another / as you cannot say your foot is your hand. I will not deny / but that sometimes these words may be found confounded in Ecclesiastical writers / but I will show you also / that they are distinguished / and that the election pertaineth to the people / and ordaining unto the Bishop.

Upon the sixte of the Acts the gloss hath / that that which was done there of the xii. Apostles / in willing the brethren to loke out fit men / was done to give us example / & must be observed in those that are ordained. For saith the gloss / the people must choose / and the Byshoppe must ordain. And that S. Jerome must be so understanded / it appeareth not only that it hath been so expounded: but also it may be casely proved / for that S. Jerome's sentence and judgment appeareth in other places / that he would have nothing here done without the people / as in his Epistle / ad Rusticum monachum: he willeth that the people should have power and authority to choose their clerks and their ministers / and in his Epistle to Neopotian / of the life of the clerks / he hath this distinction manifestly: They run / saith he / unto the Bishops suffragans certain times of the year / and bringing some sum of money / they are annointed / and ordained / being chosen of none / and afterward / the Bishoppe without any lawful election / is chosen in hugger mugger / of the Canons or Prebendaries only / without the knowledge of the people. And so you see / that although y ^• S. Jerome saith / that the Bishop had the ordaining of the ministers / yet he had not the election / for the ordaining was nothing else but an approving of the election / by putting on of hands / and consequently / having made your vaunt that all the learned fathers were of this judgment / that the Bishop should elect the minister / you show not so much as one.

Now will I show you the clean contrary of that you say / not that I gladly travail this ways / for if you had not constrained me / you should not have heard one voice this way. And would to God that you would be content / especially when you meet with those that will be tried by the scriptures / to seek no farther strength then they give you. But I am loath you should oppress the truth / and make all men afraid of it / by making them believe / that it is so desolate and forsaken of her friends / as you pretend. You confess S. Cyprian is against you herein / and he was a learned father / and a Martyr also / which did not only use this form of election / but also taught it to be necessary / and commanded / and therefore me thinketh you should not have said all the learned fathers without exception. You see also S. Jerome is of another judgment. S. Augustine also / when he speaketh how he appointed Eradius to succeed him / showeth / howe it was the approved right and custom / that the whole church should either choose / or consent of their Bishoppe. And * Ambrose saith / that that is truly and certaynely a divine election to the office of a bishop / which is made of the whole church. Eregorius Nazianzen in the Oration which he had at the death of his father / hath diverse things which prove that the election of the minister pertained to the Church / and confuteth those things which should seem to hinder it. These were learned fathers / and yet thought not that the election of the pastor or bishop / pertained to one man alone but that the church had also hir interest / therefore you see all the learned fathers are not of that mind / you say they are.

And that this election continued in the church / until within a three hundred years / at what time there was more then Egyptiacall / and palpable darcknesse over the face of the whole earth / it may appear in a Treatise of Flaccus Illir • cus / which he calleth an addition unto his book that he entituleth the Catalogue of the witnesses of truth / of whom I confess myself to have been much holpen in this matter of the choice of the church touching the ministers: especially in the Emperors Edicts which are before cited. For lacking opportunities diverse ways / I was contented somewhat to use the collection to my commodity / for the more speedy furtherance / and better proceeding in other matters / which I will leave of / because they may be there red of those that be learned / whom I will also refer to the six and seven books of Eusebius / where both the forms of the elections in those times are described / & where / besides that the customs of the people's choice is set forth / there are examples of the election of the people and clergy / which were confirmed by the Christian Magistrate / namely in the Bishop of Constantinople. And these may suffice for the other that have not that commodity of books / nor ability / nor skill to read them / being in a strange tongue / to know / that besides the institution of God in his word / this manner of election did continue so long / as there was any light of the knowledge of God / in the church of God. I will add only one place / which if it be more bitter then the rest / and cut the quick more near / you shall not be angry with me / but first with those that were the authors of it / and then with him that wrote it.

Eusebius speaking of Origin / which was admitted not of one Bishop / but of many Bishops to teache / showeth how the Bishops were reprehended by the Byshoppe of Alexandria called Demetrius / because they had admitted him without the election of the presbytery of the church / which were the chief in the election in every church / and unto the which the churches did committee the government of them selves in every several town and City / & saith / that it hath not been heard that laikous should homilein paronton ton episcopon: which is / that the lay men should teach when the Bishops were present / whereby it is evident / that he counted him a lay man / which was only admitted by the Bishops / although they were many / not being first elected by the presbytery of that church whereof he was the teacher.

Seeing then that the scripture doth teache this order / that there should be no minister thrust upon the church / but by the consent thereof / and reason persuadeth that ways / and the use of the church hath been so from time to time / both in peace and in time of persecution / both under tyrants and godly Princes / it cannot be without the high displeasure of almighty God / the great hurt and sore oppression of the church / that one man should take this unto him / which pertaineth to so many / or one minister / which pertaineth to more then one / especially / where the advise of learned ministers may concur with the people's election or consent.

Now if any man will rise up and say / that this doctrine bringeth in disorder / and by this means children / and boys / and women should have their voices / which is unseemly / all men understand that where the election is most freest and most general / yet only they have to do / which are heads of families / and that this is but a mere cavil to bring the truth in hatred / which is unworthy to be answered / & requireth rather a Censor / then a Disputer to suppress it.

To the. 47. and. 48. pages.

THe reason is of greater force then you would seem to make it / for as the twelueth place was to Mathias / so is a certain church unto a pastor or minister / and as the Apostles ordained none unto that place / before it was void / so ought not the Byshoppe ordain any / until there be a church void and destitute of a pastor. And as the Apostles ordained not any Apostle / further then they had testimony of the word of God / as it appeareth that S. Peter proceedeth by that rule to the election / so ought no bishop ordain any to any function / which is not in the scripture appointed: but there are by the word of God at this time / no ordinary ministries ecclesiastical / which be not local / and tied to one congregation / therefore this sending abroad of ministers / which have no places / is unlawful.

And that it may the better appear / that those functions do only remain / which are appointed to one certain place / and that the reader may have the clearer and plainer understanding of all this matter / all the whole ecclesiastical function may be well divided: first into extraordinary / or those that endured for a time / and into ordinary / which are perpetual. Of the first sort are the Apostles and Evangelists / which the Lord used for a time as it were for chief masons / and principal builders of his church / as well to lay the foundations of churches where none were / as also to advance them to such forwardness and heighte / until there might be gotten / for the finishing of the building and house of the Church fit pastors / elders / and deacons. And that being done / they went from those places into others / which thing may be perceived by the continual story of the Acts of the Apostles / and by diverse sentences which are found in the Epistles of S. Paul. And therefore also / when the churches have been by antichrist even rased from the foundations / God hath stirred up Evangelists even immediately by this spirit / without any calling of men / to restore his churches again: of which sort was Master Wycliffe in our Country / Master Hus and Jerome of Prague in Bohemia / Luther and ♉winglius in Germany. &c. And after this sort / God may at his good pleasure work / when he purposeth to set in his gospel in any nation / where the whole face of the earth is covered with the darkness of ignorance / and want of the knowledge of God.

Of this sort of extraordinary functions are the Prophets also / which besides a singular dexterity and readiness of expounding the scriptures / had also the gift of telling things to come / which because it is not now ordinarily / I think there is none wildeny / but it is an extraordinary calling: For the other two of the Apostles and Evangelists / it shall appear more at large hereafter (by occasion given by master Doctor) that they are but for a tune.

The ordinary & continual functions of the church / are also divided into two partes / for either they are they that govern or take charge of the whole church / as are those which are called elders / or they which take charge of one part of the Church (which is the poor of every church) as are those which are called deacons. Those again that are presbyteri / which we term elders of the church / and have to do with the whole church / are either those which teache and preach the word of God / and govern so / or else which govern only / and do not teach nor preach. Of the first kind are pastors & doctore. Of the second are those / which are called by the common name of elders or ancients. Of all this ordinary function I shall have occasion to speak / and of everyone shall appear that (which I have said before) that they are no uncertain and vndefunte ministries / but such as are limited unto a certain church and congregation. And first of all for the pastor or bishop which is here mentioned: which name so ever we consider of them / they do forthwith as sone as they are once either spoken or thought of / imply and infer a certain and definite charge / being as the Logicians term them / actual relatives. For what shepherd can there be / unless he have a flock? and howe can he be a watchman / unless he have some city to loke unto? Or how can a man be a master / unless he have a servant? Or a father unless he have a child? Now if you will say that they have a charge / and they have flocks and cities to attend and watch upon / for a wholo shire / or province / or realm / are their flocks / and their cities / and their charges.

First of all in your reading ministers that is untrue / for they go not to read in all churches / but tarry until they be hired in one. And therefore when the Bishop hath laid his hand of them / they are no more ministers then before his hund came upon them / because they have no charges / and therefore the patron or person that hireth them to read / and setteth them a work are their bishops / and make them ministers / and not the Bishop of the diocese.

Secondarily for those that preach to have a whole diocese / or province / or realm to be their flock / or city to attend upon / is contrary to the policy or good husbandrye of all those / that would either have their city safe / or their flocks sound. For who are they which would appoint one for the watch of a thousand towns or cities / when as all they which love their safety / would rather have for every city many watchmen / then for many cities one? or what is he that is so watchful and circumspect / whose diligence and watchfulness one city assaulted with enemies / will not wholly occupy and take up? or what is he whose sight is so sharp / that he can see from one ende of y ^e diocese / or province / or realm to the other ende thereof? or what is he that will commit the keeping of .xx. M. sheep to one man / that looketh for any good / or increase of them? howe shall all these hear his whistle / howe shall all know his voice / when they cannot hear it? how shall they acknowledge him / when they cannot know him? howe shall they follow him / when they cannot see him go before? howe shall he heal their diseases / when he cannot possibly know them. But some man will say / that these are human reasons / and likelyhodes which may be overthrown with other similitudes. These notwithstanding are Analogies drawn from the nature of those things which the ministers are likened unto / and are of the moste parte used of the holy Ghoste him self expressly. But that there be no controversy left in this point / what is a flock? S. Paul defineth it plainly / when he saith: appoint pastors / or elders / or bishops (for these words are indifferently used) through / not every shire / or province / or realm / but through every city / or town. And least that any man should here take occasion to conclude / that then it is lawful for one man to be bishop or pastor of a whole City / such as London or York. &c. S. Luke in the Acts doth declare the meaning of this place / where he saith / that they appointed elders throughoute every congregation / so that if the city or town be great / and the professors of the gospel in it / be more then will make conveniently a congregation / then there must be by the rule of God more pastors and bishops. Whervpon it appeareth / that both no pastor or bishop ought to be made without there be a flock / as it were a void place for him / and that a flock is not a realm / or province / or diocese (as we now call a diocese) but so many as may conveniently meet in one assembly or congregation. And that this is the meaning of S. Paul / it appeareth by the practice of the Churches from time to time / which have both decreed against / and found fault with these wandering / and roving ministries.

The great council of * Calcedon decreed that no elder / or deacon / or any other in the ecclesiastical order should be ordained apolelymenos: that is losely / and as it were let go at randone whether he him self listeth / which he also interpreateth by and by more plainly when he addeth / that he should not be ordained Eime idicos en ecclesia poleos e comes: that is / vnies it be specially in a congregation of some city or town. And in the council of Urban (as Gratian reporteth / distinction. 70.) it was decreed / that the ordination that was made w ^t out any title / should be void / and what that meaneth / is shown by and by / when it is said / & in what church any is intitled / there let him always remain. And this is also S. Jerome his complainte / in that men were ordained unto the ministry / when they were chosen by no church / and so went round about having no certain place. And therefore this / that none ought to preach / unless he have some pastoral charge / ought not to have ben so strange a thing unto you as you make it / if either the scriptures / or the councils / or the ancient fathers had been so well known unto you / as either your name requireth / or you take upon you / which dare so boldly pronounce / that there can be shown no text of scripture for the matter.

But you ask what place Paul & Barnabas had appointed them. What / mean you thereby to conclude / that because Paul & Barnabas the apostles had no place appointed them / therefore a pastor or bishop should not? when this is one difference between the apostle and bishop / that the one hath no certain place appointed / and the other hath. But I think I smell out your meaning / which is / that we may make apostles also at these days / and that that function is not yet ceased / for otherwise your reason is nothing worth. Likewise also you ask of Phillip which was an euangelist. And so you think y ^• these running ministers are lawful / because they are Apostles and Evangelists / against which I shall have occasion to speak shortly after in the. 50. page. But if a man be able to live of himself / and mind not to be burdensome to the church / it seemeth unreasonable unto you / that he may not go about and preach throughout all churches.

Did you never read any learned disputations / and that of learned writers in our days about this question: whether (although it be lawful) it be expedient that a man being able and willing to live of himself / ought to take wages of the church / for inconveniences which might ensue of taking nothing? I do but ask you the question / because you make so great a wonder at this / for I will not take upon me here the defense of it / because I will not multiply questions.

And why I may you may not that man that is so able / and will be content to live of him self / why I say may not he teache / and be the pastor of some church? Do you think that for his forbearing the wages of the Church / he may break the laws and orders that God hath established? for the rest contained in those pages touching the ordaining of ministers or bishops / I have before spoken at large.

To the. 49. page.

OEcumenius and Chrysostom say that by Elders he meaneth Bishops / not thereby to sever those that had the government of the church together with the pastor & minister of the word / which were called ancients / as you seem to mean: but to put distinction between those which are elders by age / & elders by office / besides y ^• / it is before alleged y ^• it may be y ^• the pastor or bishop did in the name of all the elders / lay on his hands upon him that was ordained. And lastly / you know and cannot deny that s. Paul in one or two places confoundeth the Bishop and the Elder. To say that the bishop may as well say (receive the holy ghost) as to say the words used in the supper / or to say y ^• the sins of those which to believe are forgiven / is dis dia pason, as far as York & London. For there / are commandments to the ministers to do that which they do / and here is none: and there the minister doth not command that the breaue be the body of Christ / but he saith that it is. Neither doth he command y ^• sins should be forgiven / but pronounceth in the behalf of God / that they are forgivē. It is not unlawful also / that he with the congregation should make a prayer for the assistance / or increase of God his gifts upon him that is ordained, but to command that he should receive it / is merely unlawful. For these words (receive the holy ghost) are the imperatiue mood / and do expressly signify a commandment. And so the bishop may as well say to the sea / when it rageth and swelleth / peace / be quiet / as to say receive the holy ghost. And if you think it so good reason / to use this in the making of ministers / because you use the words of our savior Christ / why may not you as well blow upon them as he did? for seeing that our savior Christ confirmed his word there / with a sacrament / or outward sign / and you think you must therefore do it / because he did it / you are much to blame to leave out the outward sign / or sacrament of breath / whereby the faith of him which is ordained / might be the more assured of such gifts / and graces as are requisite in his function. I heap not up here the judgment of the writers / you know / I think / it might casely be done / if I liked to follow that way.

Answer to the. 50. and. 51. pages.

THys passeth all the divinity that ever I red / that there are now Apostles / and Evangelists / and Prophets. You shall assuredly do maruelles if you prove that / as you say you will / if any deny it / I deny it / prove you it. And that you may have something to do more / then peradventure you thought of / when you wrote these words / I will show you my reasons why I think there ought to be none / nor can be none / unless they have wonderful and extraordinary callings. It must first be understanded / that the signification of this word Apostle / when it is properly taken / extendeth it self not only to all the ministers of God being sent of God / but to the ambassadoure of any Prince or Noble man / or that is sent of any public authority / and is used of the scripture by the trope of Synecdoche for the twelve / that our savior Christ appointed to go throughout all the world / to preach the gospel / unto the which number was added S. Paul and as some think Barnabas / which are severed from all other ministers of the gospel by these notes.

First that they were immediately called of God / as s. Paul to the Galatians / proveth him self to be an apostle / because he was not appointed by men.

Then / that they saw Christ / which argument S. Paul useth. Am I not an Apostle? have I not seen Christ?

Thirdly / that these had the field of the whole world to Till / where as other are restrained more particularly / as to a certain ploughe lande / wherein they should occupy them selves. Wherevppon it followeth / that as we conclude against the Pope truly / that he can be no successor of the Apostles / not only because he neither reacheth / nor doth as they did / but because the Apostles have no successors / neither any can succeed into the office of an Apostle: so may we likewise conclude against those / that would have the Apostles now adays / that there can be none / because there is none / unto whom all these three notes do agree: as that he is both sent of God immediately / or that he hath seen Christ / or that he is sent into all the world.

And although some Ecclesiastical writers do call sometimes good ministers successors of the Apostles yet that is to be understanded because they propound the same doctrine y ^• they did / not because they succeeded into the same kind of function / which they could not do. S. Paul doth use this word (Apostle) sometimes in his proper and native signification for him that is publicly sent from any to other / as when he speaketh of the brethren that were joined with Titus / which were sent by the churches with relief to the pore church in Jerusalem and Jewry / and where he calleth Epaphroditus an Apostle. But that is with addition / and not simply / as in the first place he calleth the brethren the apostles of the Churches / that is not the apostles of all Churches / or sent to all churches / but the apostles which certain churches sent with the relief to other certain churches / and Epaphroditus he calleth not an apostle simply / but the apostle of the Philippians / that is which the Philippians sent with relief to Paul being in prison at Rome / as it appeareth in the same Epistle.

And as for Andronicus and Junius which are by you recited / belike to prove that we may have more apostles / because it is said of S. Paul that they were famous and notable amongst the apostles / it cannot be proved by anything I see there / whether they had any function Ecclesiastical or no. For S. Paul calleth them his kinneffolke / and fellow prisoners / and doth not say that they were his fellow laborers: and a man may be well notable and famous amongst the apostles / and well known unto them / which is no apostle. And if the apostles would have had this order of the apostles to continue in the church / there is no doubt but that they would have chosen one into James his room when he was slain / as they did when they supplied the place of Judas / by choosing Mathias / and so ever as they had died / the other would have put other in their places. So it appeareth that this function of the apostles is ceased.

You ask farther / that if a man should not preach before he have a pastoral charge / what they will answer unto Phillip and Epaphroditus / whereby your meaning is belike / that although they be no pastors / yet they may be euangelists which go about the country here and there▪ But this office is ceased in the church / as the apostles is / saving that sometime the Lord doth raise up some extraordinarily / for the building up of the churches which are fallen down / & pulled up by the foundations / as I have shown somewhat before. And that it is ceased / it may appear by these reasons.

First / for because all those that the scripture calleth precisely Evangelists / (which are only Phillip and Timothy) had their callings confirmed by miracle / and so it is like that Titus / and Syluanus / and Apollos / and if there were any other / had their vocations after the same manner confirmed / but there is no such miraculous confirmation now / therefore there is no such vocation. For allbeit those that God hath raised up in those dark times / and overthrows of the church / whereof mention is made before / as M. Luther. &c. had not their • allings always confirmed by direct and manifest miracles of hearing or raising up from the dead: yet the marvelous succes and blessing that the Lord gave unto their labors / were sufficient seals unto all men / that although they had no ordinary calling / nor by men / yet they were sent of God? That I speak nothing of the miraculous deliverances that some of them had out of dangers / by warning given of pearils by those which were never seen before nor after / and by such like wonderful means / as are to be seen in stories.

Now again / if there should be any Evangelist / who should ordain him? you will say the Bishop. But I say that cannot be / that the greater should be ordained of the les. For the Euangeliste is a higher degree in the church / then is the bishop or pastor. And if he be so / why hath he not his estimation here in the Church above the Bishop or Archbyshop either? for the Archbyshop is but a Bishop / or why doth not he ordain Bishops as Timothy and Titus did / which were Evangelists / being one point of their office as * Eusebius declareth.

Again / if there be in every church a pastor / as S. Paul commandeth / what should the Evangelists do? for either that pastor doth his duty / and then the Evangelist is superfluous / or if he do it not / then he is no lawful pastor / and so ought he to be put out / & another to be put in his stead. And where the pastor doing his duty cannot suffice / there the scripture hath given him an aid of the doctor / which for because his office consisteth in teaching doctrine / to this ende y ^• the pastor might not be driven to spend so much time in propounding the doctrine / but might have the more time to employ in exhorting and dehorting / & applying of the doctrine to the times and places / and persons / it is manifest that he also is tied to a certain church. For howe could he be an aide unto the pastor to whose help he is given / unless he were in the same church where the pastor is? And that the Evangelists office hath been so taken as a function that endured but for a time / it may appear first by that which Eusebius writeth / speaking of Pantenus / for saith he / there were until that time Evangelists. &c. which was about the year of our Lord. 162. whereby he giveth to understand / that about that time they ceased / and that in his time there was none / when notwithstanding there were Bishops or pastors / elders and Deacons. And Ambrose saith that there be no Apostles / but those which Christ himself did appoint / whereby it appeareth that of all the Ecclesiastical functions that preach the word / there are but the pastor and Doctor only left unto us / and the same also restrained to particular charges.

Now that I have proved that there are no Evangelists / Prophets / or Apostles / and that the ministries of the word which remain / are limited unto certain places / I will take that which you grant / that is / that the pastor or bishop / ought to have a special flock. And demand of you wherefor he should have it? is it not to attend upon it? and can he attend upon it / unless he be resident and abiding upon it? but he cannot be abiding upon it / if he go from place to place to preach where he thinketh necessary: therefore being pastor or bishop of a congregation allotted unto him / he may not go from place to place to preach where he thinketh good / much les to have a mastership of a college in one corner of the land / a deanrie in another / and a prebend in the third / and so be absent from his pastoral charge in such places / where either he preacheth not / or needeth not to preach / those places being otherwise furnished without him. For thē how is this difference kept between the pastor & other ministers / that the one is tied to a place / & the other is not. For if you say that it is in that he shall preach more at his flock / then at other places / I answer that the Evangelists and Apostles did tarry longer in one place then in another / & taught some congregations years / when they did not other some months. And therefore they say nothing / which allege for the non residence of pastors / that S. Paul called Timothy & Titus from Ephesus and Crete. For first they were Evangelists and no pastors / thē they went not of their own heads / but called of the apostle which was a chief governor of the church. And thirdly they went not / but having other sufficient put in their place / as it appeareth in their several Epistles / so that if that place make anything / it maketh not to prove the non residencie / but rather whether a minister may be translated from one church to another.

But I will never wearye my pen to confute those / whom their own consciences are to strong for / and confuteth every night when they go to bed: for that were nothing else / but to reason with the belly / that hath no ears to hear / or with the back / that hath no eyes to see. Those that think that they having charges of their own / yet may go from place to place where they think it necessary / and that it skilleth not where they preach / so they preach: must consider that if they think that God is the author of their placing in their flocks / then that either their abode there / is nedeful and expedient / or else that God did not see well and clearly / what was meet to be done in placing them over that congregation / and appointing that that congregation should hang and depend upon them / for their nourishment and good government.

And you see that if I would follow those noble metaphores of watchman & shephard / which the scripture useth to express the office of a minister with / what a large field is opened unto me. For then I could show you how that cities beseged / and flocks in danger of the wolves / are * watched continually night & day. And that there is no city so sore / and so continually besieged / nor no flocks subject to so manifold diseases at home / or hurtful and devouring beasts abroad / & that without any truce or intermission / as are the churches / the shepherds and watchmen whereof / are pastors or bishops. But I will leave that to their considerations / and will show that the partes and duties of the minister be such and so many in his own flock / y ^e if he were as wise as Solomon was / as great in counsel as Joseph / as well learned as s. Paul / as active as Joshua / which fought so many battles in small space / yet all were little enough / or too little / to perform to the full / that which his charge requireth of him. Of the pastors therefore is required / not only the preaching of the word / and ministering of the sacraments / whereof / the preaching of the word / and ministering of the sacrament of baptism / ought to be continually / and as oft as the church may conveniently assemble / the other sacrament of the Lord his supper / although not so continually (for that the church shall hardly have so much leifure from their necessary affairs of this life / as that they may celebrate it as often as the other) yet so often / as that we remember that too rare and seldom celebrating it / argueth a mind too too much forgetful of the unspeakable benefit of our redemption / and argueth also that we are far behind the primitive church in zeal which did celebrate it every Saboth: I say beside the preaching of the word / and ministering of the sacraments / there is required of him that he should admonish privately / and house by house those that are under his charge. Now tell me howe this can be done profitably without a diligent marking / and looking into their manners? Howe can either public preachings / or private admonitions have their effect and working / unless the word of God be applied according to the disposition or state of that people / unto which it is preached? and undoubtedly hereof it cometh that the word of God is no more effectual in this realm then it is / for because it is preached hand over head without knowledge and understanding the estate of the people. For so / often times the promises and glad tidings of the gospel of our savior are preached unto those / that being before secure in their sins / are after the hearing of the promises / rocked into a dead sleep of them / and they that are overthrown with the conscience of their sin / and confounded in them selves / are by the sharpness of the law / and hearing of the judgment of God broken into pieces / and driven to desperation. And so likewise / the people are taught sometimes howe to lead their lives in honest conversation / when all that doctrine falleth to the ground because they have no knowledge of Christ / nor of faith in him: and to be short / it is as much as if either the surgeon should apply his plaster / or the Physician his medicine / when they neither know of the wound or disease of their pacients. But this knowledge of their estate / cannot be without a continual abode amongst them / therefore a continual residence is necessary.

Moreover / as in the law the priests were ready in the temple to answer all the doubts and questions that any of the people should come to ask: so the ministers in their several parishes should be ready to dissolve the difficulties that either one hath with another / or with him self / touching the conscience / for want whereof / the consciences of many / after doubtful and dangerous wrestling with the devil / and with despair are strangled. And thereupon some hang or drown themselves / some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning / and laboring to have no sense nor seeling of their sin / close up the wound vnhealed / which after / either breaketh out more dangerously / or else every day more and more waxing senseless / and without feeling / treasure up unto them selves the wrath of God against the day of judgment. For although the judgment of God doth not for the time follow them so hard / as them which through terror of conscience untaught and vncomforted / kill them selves: yet their estate is never the les dangerous therefore / but rather more / for as much as by a longer line of sin drawn out / they also pull upon them selves a heavier condemnation. Whych things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it / it is easy to judge that it cometh to pass a great deal oftener then we can see. When as therefore the only preaching of the word of God being continual / is a bond strong enough to hold the pastor to his flock. Then the inquiry of the manners and behauioure of his flock / the private admonitions and consolations / the dissolving of doubts when any riseth / as a three or four fold cord ought much more to hold him: so that he which shall break all these things willingly and wittingly / cannot easily be thought to break them as Sampson did his by the strength of God / but rather by some other power not of God. Besides that / S. Paul commandeth that the pastor should be a pattern or example in all goodness / and holiness of life unto his flock / and our savior Christ * saith that when the shepherd hath led forth his sheep / he goeth before them / but if the pastoure be not amongst his flock / and have not his conversation there / they cannot follow him: If they have not the example before their eyes / they cannot make the like unto it: Therefore this commandment also bindeth them to residence amongst their flocks. S. Peter willeth the pastors of the churches / that they should feed the flocks. What flocks? not everyone / but those which are committed to their faith or trust / or which dependeth upon them. And S. Paul speaking to the ministers or bishops of Ephesus / willeth them that they should take heed unto the flocks / over the which the holy Ghoste had made them overseers / where he restraineth as S. Peter did their oversight and watch unto their perticulare flock. S. Paul saith that he toke it heauely / that he was separated from them but a small time / if therefore the Apostle was away with grief from them whom he had taught / whom his calling compelled to be away from / and would not suffer to be always there: what shall be thought of the pastors / whose calling is to be with their flocks / and which are consecrated unto them / even as the Apostles were unto the whole world / what I say shall be thought of them that are away months and years. And in deed those that feed their flocks faithfully according to the commandment of God / do see what a great wisdom and mercy of God it is to appoint every flock his pastor / and every pastor his flock. They can tell of a wonderful love that God worketh in them towards their flocks / and in their flocks towards them. A great encouragement unto them / and as it were a prick to stir up their dullness it is / when they see the blessing of God upon their labors / and thereof a marvelous care and thought to turn all such things away / as should hinder the increase of that blessing / which they cannot have any feeling or experience of / which are not conuersante with their flocks. Besides this / a familiarity between the pastor and the flock is profitable / that they may be emboldened to come and demand to be satisfied of those things they doubt of / which they will never do unto those / whom they are not by continual conversation acquainted with. And it is not nothing / that Aristotle disputeth against Plato his community / which would have all things common / and that all men indifferently should have care of all things / and should have nothing which he should say to be his own. For therein Aristotle said very well / that that which was cared for of all men / was neglected of all / and cared for of none / so that the preservation of wife or children / or of any other possession / was then the best and surest / when as every man had a certain possession committed unto him / which he should care for / and take charge of. And so the Lord his wisdom was for the better surety and salvation of his church / not to make many ministers which should in common and indifferently take care of all / but ordained that the church should be divided into diverse partes / and that everyone should have a piece to care for / and to give account for.

Now if any man will say / that in such great scarcity of pastors / it is good that when a man hath traveled in one place / and removed them from superstition / and brought them to believe in God through Christ / to go to another place / and assay also to draw them from idolatry: First I urge that which I did before / which is the calling wherein every man must abide / and without y ^• which no man ought to attempt anything. Then I say that it is as hard a province / & as painful a thing unto the pastor / as acceptable and precious a work unto the Lord / to keep those which are gotten / as to get those which are not gotten / and that that saying is fulfilled here (if in anything else.)

Non minor est virtus quam quaerere parta tueri.

It is as great a virtue to keep that which is already gotten / as to have got it.

For we know that after that the devil perceiveth / that men are pulled out of the power of darkness / into the glorious light of the gospel / he sweateth and laboreth by a thousand means to destroy them / & bestirreth him self more then / then in the time of their ignorance / and in stead of that one chain of ignorance / and want of the knowledge of god / he layeth a thousand traps for them / to snare them with. So that the continual danger that the church is in / doth as it were speak unto the pastor in the common proverb. Sparten hen claches kosma: that is / look diligently to that charge which thou haste received. For / if the watchman should forsake the City / whereunto he is appointed / and go and watch in another / where he is not called / although he save that / if he lose the other / he shall not therefore escape the punishment of betraying the other city / where he was placed watchman.

Touching the behalf of God & his glory / if any man will say that they cannot pearish / which once have believed / and therefore those may be left / and others attempted / I can say of those that are in ignorance and blindness / that they cannot pearish that be elected / although they never have the gospel preached. And therefore we must walk in those ways that God hath appointed / to bring them to salvation / which is to feed them continually / and watch over them so long as they are in danger of hunger / in danger of wolves / in danger of the enemies / within and without / which is so long as the church is here upon the earth.

Upon all which things I conclude / that the residence of the pastor is necessary / and to dout whether the pastor ought to be resident amongst his flock / is to doubt whether the watchman should be in his tower / the eye should be in the head / or the soul in the body / or the shepherd amongst his flock / especially where the sheep are continually in danger of wolves / as in the lande of Jewry from whence this similitude or manner of speech was taken / where they watched their flocks night and day / as I observed before out of S. Luke.

If any man will hereupon conclude / that they have no space given them to sleep / to eat / to drink. &c. they are cavils / which I will not vouchsafe to answer.

Again / if he will say / that then they may not go for the of the town to do their necessary business for their families / I desire them in the name of God / that they abuse not his graces / in devising cloaks to cover their disorders / but y ^t they would set before them the love of Christ / which shall be found to be so much as they shall show themselves diligent in continual feeding their flocks / & to fear the judgment of God / before whom / no feigned or coloured excuse will stand: and so I trust they will make no longer absences / then must needs. And if upon any occasion at any time they be somewhat longer / that the same be not without the leave of their churches whose they are / and which they for the Lord his sake serve / and then also that in such rare and necessary absence / they provide them of some able man to teach in the mean season / which the church by her governors / will allow of.

And hereupon also / is ended another question that the answerer maketh / whether one may have many flocks / which is / whether one shepherd may be many shepherds / one watcheman / many watchmen. For if his residence be necessary in one place / then he ought to content him self with one.

And whereas you would have men charitably judge of those which take many lyuinges: surely / if so be that he taketh many flocks / not to the intent to have more living to maintain an ambitious pomp / or to satisfy a greedy desire / of having more then enough / but to this end y ^• he may bring in a more plentiful harnest unto the Lord: it were good that he would be content to take but that living of all his flocks / which he now hath of one / especially where one is able to keep and maintain him and his family honestly. Else let him hear what councils / & others / have thought of those / which have more benefices then one.

In the. 15. Canon of the council of Nice it is commanded / that no clearke should be placed in two Churches / and he addeth the reasons / whereof the first is / that it is a point of marchaundise / and of filthy gain. The seconde / that no man can serve two masters. The third / that everyone ought to * tarry in that calling / wherein he is called.

And in the seconde Tome of the Councelles / Damasus in his fourth Epistle / lykeneth those that set over their charges unto other / unto harlots / which assone as they have brought forth their children / by and by give them to be nourished of others / to the intent that they might the sooner fulfill their inordynare lusts.

Whether it were better y ^• one dyligent pastoure should have many flocks / then a neglygent and unskillful pastor one / is not the question: for we say neither is lawful / nor ought to be done.

Do you believe that which you set down of Denys the monk & Pope / that he devised and divided parishes? If you do not / why would you have us beeleeue it? If the law doth condemn him / that turneth a blind man out of the way / or layeth a block before him / what doth it him / which would put out the eyes of them that see their way already? I have shown / and the matter is plain / that the Lord divided national churches / into parishes and congregations: so that if S. Paul have not the word of parish / yet he hath the thing. And those that have red stories / know that dioiceris (which we call a Diocese / and which containeth with us numbers of parishes) was at the first taken to be the same that parish is / and used a great while before Denys was borne / or monkery begotten.

And as for Coemeteria or Churchyardes / if you mean those places that lie next round about the churches / as they came in with the monk / they might well have gone out with him / for any profit either to the church / or common wealth cometh by them. But if you mean as the Greek word (which is there used) signifieth / a fit place where the bodies of men sleep / and are buried / attending the time of their rising up again in the last and general day of judgment / then these churchyardes were in the time of the law / and in the primitive church and at all times / when there was any outward policy of the church / and especially when the church had quietness and peace / that it might without danger * bury their dead in some certain convenient place thereunto appointed / which was for fear of the infection commonly (as it may be gathered) in the field and out of the town / unto the which use & custom (if it might be done conveniently) it were well that we were restored / both because it is more safe for the preservation of the towns and cities in their health / as also for that through the superstition which hath been of being buried rather in the church / then in the church yarde / in the chauncell rather then in the church / nearer the high altare then further of / the remnantes whereof are in a great number of men's hearts yet / which might much be helped by the bringing in of that custom again / of burying the dead in some honest place out of the town thereto appointed.

To the next sections in the. 52. and. 53. pages.

IF you should beget / and be a father of many books / and all your children like their eldest brother / you would (without better advise) shake many grounds of our religion. For here again you wish that all pastors were able to teache / but that being impossible (as the estate is now) you are content with pastors or ministers that can do nothing but read. You through out your whole book make this a marvelous good estate / and always turn the best side outward / and when men go about to urge the deformities thereof / to the ende they might be remedied / then you lay open the shame and nakedness of it / and make it greater then it is in deed. For as I have shown before / the church standeth not so much in need of youre reading ministers / as you would make the world believe. And although it be a great deformity and sore plage of the church which you here speak of and confess at unawares / yet you will let no man come near to heal it. There be some make a gain by sores / and sore legs / and therefore they have a medicine to keep their wounds always green / that they should not heal.

I hope you do not of purpose keep the church in this estate / but this I dare say / that the chief of your gain and of your honor consisteth and is grounded in the ruins of the church / and therefore I desire you to look unto it.

But what if the estate of the church be such as you speak of / that it will scarce yield three preaching pastors and bishops in some diocese / may you therefore make reading ministers? In deed if the Apostle had made this a counsel only / and no commandment / that pastors of churches should be able to teache / then your saying might have been borne.

But seeing that S. Paul hath commanded expressedly / that he should be able to teache / and to convince the gaynesayers / I would learn of you gladly / what necessity there is which can cause a man to break the moral law of God / to bring in a tradytion of man. You may as well break any other commandment of God for necessyties sake / as break this / being comprehended in the first table.

And to say that these that can only read / must be tolerated in the church as ministers / is to say / because you can have no pastors in the churches / you will have idols. For so will I not doubt to call them / although through ignorance of that which they do / some may be good men. But yet in respect of the place that they occupy / they are idols / for they stand for that / and make show of that / which they are not / and admit you them as often as you will / the Lord pronounceth that they shall be no ministers to him / which have no knowledge.

But let us hear your reason / there must be reading in the church / therefore there must be ministers which can do nothing else. Then we may reason thus to. There must be breaking of bread / and distributing of the cup in the church / and pouring on water / therefore whosoever is able to break a loaf of bread / or to lift a cup of wyne / or to pour on water on the body of the child / may be made a minister.

And did you never read that there were readers in the church / when there were no reading ministers? but of reading of the scriptures and prayers in the church / there will be a fitter place to speak afterward where it shall be shown / how unjustly you surmise these things of them.

Touching Homilies shall be spoken more hereafter / where further occasion is given. I do not use to maintain the places which are quoted / although they be truly alleged for the causes which I have before mentioned / but yet I cannot but speak of this place of S. Luke / for fear of the danger that may ensue. For if this be a good reason / that the place of S. Luke may not be used to prove that preaching is perpetually annexed to the ministry / because in the same place is made mention of curing of diseases / which is but a temporal thing / and followed the ministry but for a time / then the commandment of S. James that the Elders of the Church should pray for those that are sick / is now no commandment / because putting on of hands / and anointing of them / that they might recover their health / hath no place / and by this means you will pull from us many places of the New Testament / as you did before of the old.

What dealing is this / to bring men into suspicion of that / which they never thought of / as though there were any word that sounded to this / that a man should put him self into the office of preaching / without the approbation of those men to whom it doth pertain.

Their complaint is / that those which are ordained pastors / and therefore to preach / cannot do it without further license. As if a man should be charged to do a thing forthwith / and then he that chargeth him / bindeth him hand and foot / that he cannot do it / unless he will lose him.

The Bishops inhable him to teache / and point him a place to teache in / and yet they will not let him teache / unless he have a further license. If he be an heretic or schismatic / or suspected of any such thing / why is he admitted / or being admitted / why is he suffered to be so much as a reader in the church? And because you could not answer this / therefore you set up a fancy of yours to confute. And thus you fight without an adversary / and you make triumphs / where there is no victory.

They will say unto you / that not only under a godly Magistrate / but not in the time of persecution any man ought to take upon him any function in the church / unless he be thereunto called by men / except he have a wonderful calling / which is rare / and must be diligently examined by them which have it / least under pretence of the spirit of God whom they make author of their calling / it fall out that it be but their own headlong affection that hath thrust them in: so far they are from the frensic of Anabaptists / which you by a confutation of that / which they never affirmed / would seem to stain them with.

To the section beginning in the latter ende of the. 53. page / until the midst of the 62. page.

THe Cap / the Surplice / and Tippet / are not the greatest matters we strive for / which notwithstanding hath been informed to the churches beyond sea / to the ende that the judgments of some might be the eastyer had against us. Howbeit we think it an attire unmeet for a minister of the gospel to wear / and the Surplice especially / more then the other two / because such hurtful ceremonies are so much more dangerous / as they do approach nearer the scruice / or worship of God.

The causes why we are loath to meddle with them / are not as many are borne in hand / because that we think any pollution so to stick to the thing • them selves / as that the wearing of them had any such power to pollute & make unclean the vsers of them: neither yet only because the papists have superstitionsly used them / but because they having been abominably abused by them / have no use nor profit in those things or ends / wherein and whereunto they are now used. And further that they are also hurfull / being monuments of idolatry / whereas to bring them in and establish them / it behooveth that there should some manifest profit of them appear. For it is not enough to say it is indifferent in the own nature / Ergo meet to be done: but as the circumstances of the times and persons and profit or hurt of our brethren do require / or not require / so must it be done / or not be done. For in these things which are called indifferent / God will have the use of them to be measured / that it be referred first to his glory / then to the profit of others. Now / that they are not profitable and hurtful / it also may appear if we consider them by all the kinds of men in y ^e realm.

The papists are either stubborn or weak / and in respect of both these / they cannot be but hurtful. The weak I call those that have made some step from popery to the gospel / and of whom there is good hope that they may be fully gotten to the gospel / but these are harmed by the use of these vestimentes / for they take occasion of falling at them / because they think that the sacraments get reverence by them / and the ministry is commended by such apparel wearing / and think that the sacraments want something of that they should have / if they be not used: whereupon are heard oftentimes these voices. I will not communicate unless he wear a surplice. But this offense and occasion of falling / is confirmed by the use of these garments: therefore in respect of such men / they are hurtful.

Agayne / although I have knowledge / and know that the wearing of a surplice is lawful for me / yet another which hath not knowledge / is by my example edifyed / or strengthened to wear a surplice / whereof he can tell no ground why he should wear it / and so sinneth against his conscience: and for this cause S. Paul concludeth / that that which a man may do in respect of him self / may not be done / and is not lawful to be done / in respect of other.

Agayne for the stubborn papists / they take hereupon occasion to speak evil of / and to blaspheme the truth of the gospel / saying / that our religion cannot stand by it self / unless it lean upon the staff of their ceremonies / and persuade them selves that those were very well devised by their Popes / that they that are their enemies to their religion / cannot be without. And heereuppon they take occasion to hope that their other trumpery and baggage / will in the ende come in again / which causeth them to be more frosen in their wickedness / and shut their ears against the truth / which possibly they would hear / if all hope of bringing in of their Popery were cut off. And let it be observed that through out the realm there are none that make such clamoures and ouctryes / and complaints for these ceremonies / as they / and those that they suborn. They pretend I confess / the Queens majesties Injunctions / & obedience unto them / but who is so blind as seeth not / that they have another meaning. For I appeal unto the consciences of all that know them / whether they do it for any obedience towards her Majesty / whose death should be a thousand times better news unto them / then her graces marriage.

There are also numbers of those which have all antichristianitie in such detestation / that they cannot abide the least scrappe of it / and when they see the ministers wear them / they are grieved in their hearts / and they begin somewhat to fear / least this communicating with the papists in apparel / should make some way to those which use them / the easier to admit other things / when they should be likewise commanded. And these brethren's minds are not to be lightly grieved / and the ministers if they think to profit them / must cut away all occasion / whereby they may have an evil opinion of them.

Seeing that therefore this kind of ceremonies in apparel / harden the harts of the papists / and cause them to be the stiffer in their popery / hinder the weak from profiting in the knowledge of the gospel / grieve the minds of the godly / are occasion of an evil opinion unto them of their ministers / we think that these ceremonies are to be removed / as not only not profitable (which they ought to be) but hurtful / if not to the ministers them selves that use them / yet to their people to whom they are commanded by God to have regard unto / in these things that are indifferent in their own natures. Now I will come to that which you set down.

The places alleged by the admonition / with others / which may be cited / howsoever you deride them / are notwithstanding probable conjectures / that neither Samuel / nor the apostles / nor our savior Christ / did wear any distinct apparel from others / which lived in their times. For if Samuel being then the seer / had had a several apparel / which was proper to the seers / it is not like that Saul would have asked of him self where his house was. And if the apostles had worn a several apparel from the rest / they should not have been esteemed by so general and vncerten a note / as of speaking somewhat brodely / or as I may term it / Northenly / for it had been a surer note to have said thou art one of his apostles / because none weareth this apparel but his apostles / where there was a great number that spake Galilcan like / which were not of his apostles / nor disciples neither. But let these go. You say our savior Christ had a several apparel / because he had a coat without seam. Assuredly you might use les scornefulnes in rehearsing of other men's arguments / if for no other cause / yet for this / that they might take more pity of yours.

For what an argument is this? Our savior Christ did wear an under garment / which could not be well parted / but with the spoil or marring of it / therefore he ware a several apparel from the rest. It is true / John the Baptist had a several apparel / and to help you / so had Elias / but to this ende / that both by his unwonted apparel / and strange diet which he used of locusts and wild honey / the extraordinaries of his ministry might be set forth / and the people the rather moved to inquire of his office / whom they saw to vary so much from the common custom of other men. But ministers now have no such extraordinary functions / therefore by that reason of yours / they should not be severed from other men / by any note of apparel. You say you know that the chief notes of a minister / are doctrine and learning / if you mean that the distinction of apparel must supply the rest / and that that also hath some force to commend their ministry / the prophets and apostles of our savior Christ / left us no perfect pattern of a minister / nor no sufficient glas to dres him by / whereof the moste parte never used any such several apparel / and none of them have left any commandment of it.

For want of store / and to make a long boke / here is S. John's miter rehearsed thrice in one leaf to the same purpose / and in the same words. And because it was not enough that M. Bullinger / and M. Martyr should speak of them / you have prevented them both / least you should have seemed to have brought nothing. If this be not Coleworts twice sodden / I cannot tell what is.

You ask whether the Christian magistrate may enjoin a several kind of apparel to the ministers. Either the cause is too weak which you defend / or else it hath gotten an evil patron / which would so gladly shift it / and change it with another. For this is another question which you speak of. For although that be granted unto you / which you demand / yet you cannot conclude your cause. For all be it the magistrate may command a several apparel / yet it followeth not that he may command this kind of popish apparel / and therefore what manner of argument is this of yours / the magistrate may command a several apparel / therefore he may command this. The college walls will tell you / that a man cannot conclude from the whole to the parte affirmatively. So you see I might let you fish / and catch nothing / but I am neither afraid / nor ashamed / to tell you the truth of that you ask / so farreforth at least as I am persuaded. I think therefore it may be such a kind of apparel / as the magistrate commanding it / the minister may refuse it / and such it may be / as he may not refuse it. But whatsoever apparel it be / this commandment cannot be without some injury done to the minister. For seeing that the magistrate doth allow of him / as of a wise / learned / and discrete man / and trusteth him with the government of his people in matters between God and them / it were somewhat hard not to trust him with the appointing of his own apparel / and he is probably to be supposed that he hath discretion to wear his own gear comely / and in order / that is able to teach others / how they should wear theirs? and that he should be able to do that by his wisdom / and learning / that others do without learning and great store of wisdom / & that he should keep order and decency in apparel / which hath learned in the school of Christ / which they do that had never other scholemaster / then common sense and reason? And if any minister be found to fault / in going either dissolutely / or to exquisitely and delicately / then the Magistrate may punish him according to the disorder wherein he faulteth.

And whereas you would prove that it may be done with the ministers / as it is done with Judges / sergeants / Aldermen and Sheriffs / the case is not like. For as for these which be in office / their robes and gowns may as their maces & swords / somewhat help to set forth the majesty and moderate pomp which is meet for the offices of justice which they execute / and consequently to help to strike a profitable fear into their hearts which are underneath them / which hath / nor can have no place in the minister / whose authority and power / as it is not outward / so can it not / nor ought not to borrow any credit of these external shows. And the Magistrate / or the City / may seek some honor of the citizens / mustering as it were by numbers in one livery / which ought not to be looked for at the ministers hand / because he honoreth and serveth the magistrate another way / nor cannot also / considering that they are scattered through all the land in every town one / or not so many / as being put in one livery / would make any great show to the honor & commendation of the town or city where they remain.

And so you see your question answered / whereby appeareth they are subjects as other are / and to obey also sometimes / where the commandment is not given upon good grounds. The place of Theodoret cited of M. Bullinger / maketh mention of a golden cope / and that used by bishops of Jerusalem / and sold by Cyril a good bishop / whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of such garments in the ministry of the sacraments. In the place the which he citeth out of Socrates / there is one Sycinius an Nouatian bishop which is said to have worn white apparel / and therefore is reprehended as for to much exquisitenesse & fineness of apparel / & the B. of Duresine / in a letter he wrote / alledgeth the same place against the surplice. A man would hardly believe that master Bullinger should use these places to prove a distinction of apparel amongst the ministers. We are not ignorant but that a cloke hath been used of the ministers in their service / but that was no several apparel of the ministers / but common to all the Christians / which with change of their religion / changed also their apparel / as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de pallio.

As for the Petalum that S. John ware / I see not how it can be proved / to be like a bishops miter. For the cap / that S. Cyprian gave the executioner / argueth rather that it was y ^e commō apparel which was customably worn / for else it would not have done him so much good. As for his upper garment which he gave to his deacon / it was a token of his good will / which he would leave with him / as the practice hath been seen with us / and proveth nothing that it was any several apparel. As for the white linen garment which he suffered in / it cannot seme strange unto us which have seen the holy martyrs of the Lord executed in Smithfield and other places. And it is not to be thought that S. Cyprian had so small judgment / that living in the time of persecution / he would by wearing of some notable apparel from the rest / as it wear betray him self into the hands of his enemies / unless all the Christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of their faith / and greater detestation of the contrary religion: as Tertullian and the Christians in his time did / by the wearing of a cloke / which reason may be also alleged of the Petalum of S. John. It is true Chrysostom maketh mention of a white garment / but not in commendation of it / but rather to the contrary. For he showeth that the dignity of their ministry / their safety and crown was in taking heed / that none unmeet were admitted to the Lord's supper / not in going about the church with a white garment. And it is easily to be seen by * Solomon in his Ecclesiastes / that to wear a white garment / was greatly esteemed in the East partes / and was ordinary to those that were in any estimation / as the wearing of black with us: and therefore was no several apparel for the ministers / or for to execute their ministry in.

The reasons that M. Peter Martyr useth / are the same before / and how he hath also condemned them / it shall appear / with M. Bucer's judgment of these things in the ende of the book.

As for Eustathius his deprivation / because he did not wear apparel meet for a minister / it maketh not to this purpose one whit. For I have shown that if any minister go like a ruffian or swashe buckler / or in the bravery of a courtier / that it is meet he should be punished according to the quaintitie of the fault. And that it is so to be understanded / it appeareth manifestly by the council of Gangris / which did therefore confirm the same deposing / because he ware a stranger apparel / & the habit of a Philosopher / & caused all his fellows to do so. Therefore I marvel what you mean to allege this place. It is also alleged of * Nicephorus / in neither of y ^e places there is any Eustathius / y ^e son of Eustathius / but of Eulabius / or as Nicephorus readeth Eulalius. And therefore your conclusion is both untrue & uncertain / that since the Apostles times there hath been a distinct & several apparel of the ministers from the rest. The matter lieth not in that whether these things were first muented by papists / or being devised of others / were after taken by the papists / but y ^e matter standeth in this / that they have been used of the papists as notes & marks and sacraments of their abominations.

As for Augustine his place / it is to be understanded of such things as have a necessary use / and therefore may not be taken away from us by the superstition of men. For so we might also be deprived of the sun / which is as it were the life of the world / because the sinme hath been worshipped. But that S. Augustine did not like of this kind of retaining ceremonies / it may * appear. Do you ask saith he / how the Pagans may be won / how they may be brought to salvation / forsake their solemnities / let go their toys / and then if they gree not unto our truth / let them be ashamed of their fewness / whereby he showeth / that the nearest way to gain the papists / is to forsake their Ceremonies. And yet I would be loath to say either with you / or with Augustine / that it is not lawful for a man / to make of a popish surplice / a shirt for him self / or to take the gold of a cope which he hath bought / & convert it to his private use. And herein we do nothing disagree with S. Augustine / which grant that surplices / and copes / and rippets / and cappes / may be applied to a good use / either common or private / as they will best serve / but we deny that that use is in distinguishing either the ministers from other men / or the ministers executing their ecclesiastical function from themselves / when they do not exercise that office.

To all these things that M. Martyr reckoneth up of revenues / and wages / verses / wine / bread / oil / water / which being consecrated unto Idols / are well used / Tertullian answereth in the same boke / whereout a number of these are taken: when he saith / that we ought to admit a participation of those things / which bring either a necessity or profit in the use of them / but we deny that these things thus used / are either necessary or profitable. And therefore instead of temples / tithes / wine. &c. if you would have matched the surplice well / you should have said sensors / tapers / holy bread / holy water / and such like. It is true / that M. Bucer saith / that it is not in the nature of any creature to be a note of Antichrist / but yet followeth not thereof / that the creature that hath been accidentally / & through abuse applied to idolatry / may be forthwith used as we shall think good. For neither the idols of the Gentiles / nor the corruptions of those which offered / had power to make the beefe or mutton that was offered / no good and wholesome meat for the sustenance of man / neither cause that a Christian man could not eat them as beefe and mutton / but yet either to eat it at the table of idols before them / or else privately in his own house / when there was any weak by / that thought it an abhominable thing / was not lawful: and yet the meat nevertheless the good creature of God / and which might be received with thanks giving / so the abuse of the surplice and coape. &c. cannot cause / but that they may be used as clothe and silk.

And whereas he saith that they are changed / and made of notes of Antichristianitie / marks of Christianity / I say that they cannot be changed so by any decree or commandment / for as much as notwithstanding that profession of change / the hearts of men unto which every man must have regard unto / are not changed. For not so soon as the magistrate will say that these things shall be from henceforthe used as things indifferent / forthwyth men do use them so / but those only use them so / which have knowledge / both the ignorant and the weak take them still otherwise. The rest of those things which M. Bucer / and those which M. Bullinger and Gwalther bring / are all of that sort / whereunto answer is made.

Only this they add / that if the people do abuse and pervert these ceremonies / they ought to be better instructed / which is a counsel not so convenient / that the ministers and pastors which have so many necessary points to bestow their time on / and to inform the people of / should be driven to cut of their time appointed thereto / to teache them not to abuse these things / which if they use never so well / they can gain nothing / and to take heed that they hurt not them selves at those things / which in their best estate do no good / especially when one sermon of the taking of them away joined with authority to execute it / may do more good then a thousand sermons without authority.

Besides that / it is absurd / that ceremonies which ought to be helpers to promote the doctrine / should become lets and hindrances / whilst the minister is occupied in teaching / to beware of the abuse of them / and of superstition. And it is as much as if one should be set to watch a child all day long / least he hurt him self with the knife / when as by taking away the knife quite from him / the danger is avoided / and the service of the man better employed. And so it followeth / that although the church may appoint ceremonies and rites / yet it cannot appoint these that have great incommoditye / and no commodity / great offense and no edifying.

And although they have all these properties which you recite / yet if they be not to edifying / if not to God his glory / if not comely and agreeable to the simplicity of the gospel of Christ crucified / they may not be established. Concerning your distinction / whereby you lesten the idolatry of the papists / I have shown the vanity thereof.

But of this matter you say you will speak again. In deed so you do / and again / wherein you confound the memory and understanding of the reader / and declare yourself not only ignorant of Aristotle's rule of katholou proton (which is to speak of one thing generally and once for all) but even to be void of that order which men have commonly by the natural logic of reason. Neither can you excuse yourself in saying that the Admonition giveth you so often times occasion to speak of them / and so to lay the fault upon it / for that it being written by diverse persons of the same matters / whereof one knew not of an others doing / cannot be blamed for the repetition of one thing twice / when as you cannot escape blame which might have gathered easily into one place / y ^• which is said of them in diverse. Whych thing / although it be not so easy for me to do in your book / as it was for you to do in theirs / yet I will assay to do it both in this and in all other points that follow / not thinking thereby to bring this treatise of yours to any good order (for that were to cast it new again / and then you would complain of your mind perverted) but that I might remedy this so great disorder as far as may be done without changing any thing of that which you have set down.

And if there be any other arguments touching any of these points in other places / which I have not gathered together into one / the fault is in this / that I could not bestow so much time in making a Harmonie of the things which are at so great discord / and then that which is left out / shall be answered in place where I shall find it. Now let us see M. Doctors deuteron ploun, and second nauigation touching apparel / whether it be any happier / or have any better succes then the first.

In the. 105. page / M. Doctor to prove the use of the surplice / to draw out his book into some competent volume / boroweth certain places of the examiner / for answer whereunto / I will refer the reader to that which is answered unto the examination / as to a full and sufficient answer wherein I will rest / and when M. Doctor hath proved that which he saith / that it is but a childish cavil / he shall then hear further.

In the mean season it is but a slender Reply / to so learned an answer (that proveth both out of other authors / and out of those same which the examiner citeth / that by a white garment is meant a comely apparel / and not slouēlie) to say it is but a childish cavil / which a D. of Divinity / and of. xl. years of age cannot answer. The place of Jerome upon the. 44. of Ezekiel / the more it be considered / the more shall appear the truth of the answer.

Now I will desire the reader to turn unto the. 237. 238. 239. 240. 242. pages / to see whether at this third voyage M. doctor bringeth any better marchaundise. Where first he surmiseth an untruth / as though the admonition misliked of the taking away of the gray Amis / where it saith only that there was les cause to take that away / then the surplice. &c. Wherein there is nothing but the truth said / for because that was used but in few churches / and but of few also in those few churches: therefore if there were cause to take away that / there was greater to take away the surplice. And to take away the Amis out of the church / and leave the surplice. &c. is to heal a scratch / and leave a wound vnhealed.

Now whereas you say / that we are always (Ad oppositum) and that if the law commanded straightly / that we should wear none of this apparel / that then we would wear: if it should be answered again that you do Seruire scenae: that is / that you are a time seruer / you see we might speak with more likelihood then you. But we will not take (as you do) the judgment of God out of his hands / but will attend patiently the revelation and discovering of that / which is now hid both in you and in us.

And although you will grant us neither learning nor conscience / yet you might aforde us so much wit / as that we would not willingly / and of purpose want those commodities of life / which we might otherwise enjoy as well as you if we had that gift of conformity which you have.

Whereas you say that the accursed things of Jericho / and the ox that was fed to be sanctified unto Baal / and the wood consecrated unto the Idol / were converted to the service of the living God / when you shall prove that the surplice is so necessary to the service of God / as gold / and silver / and other metal / and as oxen and wood / whereof the first sort were such / as without the which / the temple could not be builte / the other / such as were expressly commanded of God / to be used in his service / then I will confess that this place maketh something for you. And yet if your copes / and surplices. &c. should have such a purgation by fire / as those metalles had / or ever the Lord would admit them into his treasure house / and should be driven to pass from popery unto the gospel / by the chimney / the fire would make such wrack with them / that they should need have better legs / then your arguments / to bring them into the church.

Moreover / do you not see here / that you have not loosed the knot / but cut it. For the authors of the Admonition object the place of Isaiah / and you object again / the places of Deuteronomy / and of the Judges / this is to oppose sword against sword: instead that you should have first holden out your buckler / & latched the blow of your adversary. As for churches / it hath ben answered that they have a profitable use / and therefore very evil compared with the surplice / which beside that it bringeth no profit / hurteth also as is before said.

To be short (saith M. Doctor) when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word / as he hath cited before / where he hath had his answer. After this he setteth him self to prove that they edifye / and that first by M. Bucer's / and M. Martyrs authority / and yet in their words before alleged / there is not a word of edifying. If he gather it of their words / the answer is already made. Then he bringeth reasons to prove it / whereof in the first he seemeth to reason / that because it is commanded by a lawful magistrate / and lawful authority / therefore it edifieth. As though a lawful magistrate doth nothing at any time unlawfully / or as though a lawful and a godly magistrate / doth not sometimes command things / which are inconuement and unlawful. Saul was a lawful magistrate / and did command unlawful things. David was a lawful and godly magistrate / and yet there slipped from him commandments / which were neither lawful / nor godly. But he addeth that it is done for order / and for decency / without superstition / or suspicion of it. This is that which is in controversy / and ought to be proved / and M. Doctor still taketh it as granted / and still faulteth in the petition of the principle / wherewith he chargeth others.

The second reason is / that they that wear this apparel / have edified / and do edify: which is / as if a man would say / the midwives which lied unto Pharaoh / did much good amongst the Israelites / Ergo, their lying did much good. If he will say / the comparison is not like / because the one is not sin in his own nature / whereas the other is sin / then take this: One that stammereth and stutteth in his tōg / edifieth the people / therefore stammering and stutting / is good to edify. For what if the Lord give his blessing unto his word / and to other good gifts which he hath that preacheth and weareth a surplice. &c. Is it to be thought therefore / that he liketh well of the wearing of that apparel? This is to assign the cause of a thing to that / which is not only not the cause thereof / but some hindrance also / and s • aking of that / whereof it is supposed to be a cause. For a man may rather reason / that for as much as they which preach w ^t surplice. &c. edify / (notwithstanding that they thereby drive away some / and to other some give •• spition of evil. &c.) if they preached without wearing any such thing / they should edify much more. And yet if a man were assured to gain a thousand / by doing of that which may offend / or cause to fall one brother / he ought not to do it.

The third reason is / y ^t they which consent in wearing the surplices / consent also in all other points of doctrine / and they that do not wear it / do not consent / not so much as amongst them selves. If this consent in the points of religion be in the surplice / cope. &c. tell us I beseech you / whether in the matter / or in y ^• form / or in what hid and unknown quality standeth it? if it be in that the ministers use all one apparel / then it is marvel that this being so strong a bond to hold them together in godly unity / that it was never commanded of Christ / nor practiced of prophets or apostles / never of no other reformed churches. I had thought wholly / that those things which the lord appointeth to maintain & keep unity with / & especially the holy sacraments of baptism / & of the lords supper / had ben strong enough to have first of all knit us unto the lord / & therefore also to his doctrine / & then one of us to another / & that the dissenting in such a ceremony as a surplice. &c. neither should nor could in those that pertain unto God / break the unity of the spirit / which is bound with the bond of truth. And although there be which like not this apparel / that think otherwise then either their brethren / or then in deed they ought to do / yet a man may find greater dissent amongst those / which are united in surplice & cope. &c. then there is / amongst those which wear them not / either w ^t them selves / or w ^t them that wear them. For how many there are that wear surplices / which would be gladder to say a mass / than to hear a sermon / let all y ^e world judge. And of those y ^• do wear this apparel / & be otherwise well minded to y ^e gospel / are there not which will wear y ^e surplis / & not y ^e cap: other y ^e will wear both cap & surplice / but not the tippet / & yet a third sort / y ^e will wear surplice / cap / & tippet / but not the cope. It hath ben the manner always of wise & learned men / to esteem of things by the causes / & not by the event / & that especially in matters of religion / for if they should be esteemed of the event / who is there which will not condemn the Israelites battle against Aye / & afterward against the Benjamites? which notwithstanding / the cause which was God's wist / and God's commandment justifieth. And therefore in a word I answer / y ^e if there be such consent amongst those which like well of this apparel / and such jars amongst those that like it not (as M. doctor would make the world believe) neither is the wearing of the surplice. &c. cause of y ^e consent in them / nor the not wearing cause of the disagrement in the other. But as our knowledge & love is imperfect here in this world / so is our agrement & consent of judgment imperfect. And yet all these hard speeches of yours / or uncharitable suspicions of papisme / anabaptisme / catharisine / donatisme. &c. whereby you do as much (as lieth in you) to cut us clean of from you / shall not be able so to estrange us or separate us from you / but that we will by gods grace hold / what so ever you hold well / & keep that unity of spirit / which is the bond of truth / evē with you M. doctor / whom we suppose as appeareth by this your boke / to have set yourself further from us / then numbers of those / which although they be content to receive the apparel / & bear w ^t things / yet would have ben loath to have set down y ^e against the sincerity of the gospel / & hindrance of reformation / which you have done. The white apparel / which is a note & true representation of the glory & pureness in the angels / should be a lying sign / & pretence of y ^t which is not in y ^e ministers / which are miserable / & sinful men. And our savior Christ / which was the minister of God / & pure from sin / & therefore metest to wear y ^e mark of pureness / used no such kind of weed / saving only for y ^e small time / wherein he would give to his disciples in the mount / a taste of that glory which he should enjoy forever / & they with him: where / for the time his apparel appeared as white as snow. And if it be mete that the ministers should represent the angels in their apparel / it is much more mete / that they should have a pair of wings as the angels are described to have / to put them in remembrance of their readiness & quickness to execute their office / which may and ought to be in them / then to wear white apparel / which is a token of pureness from sin and infection / and of a glory which neither they have / nor can have / nor ought so much as to desire to have / as long as they be in this world.

And whereas the maintainers of this apparel / have for their greatest defense / that it is a thing mere civil: to let pass / that they confound Ecclesiastical orders with civil (which they can no more justly do / then to confound the church with the common wealth) I say to let that pas / they do by this means not only make it an Ecclesiastical ceremony / but also a matter of conscience. For if so be that the white apparel of the minister have any force / either to move the people / or the minister unto greater pureness / or to any other godliness whatsoever / then it is that which ought to be commanded / and to be obeyed of necessity / and to be retained / although the contrary were forbidden. And then also if there be a virtue in a white garment / and the signification thereof be so strong to work godliness / it were meet that order were taken / that the whitest clothe should be bought / that it should be often (at the least every week once) washed by a very good launder / and with sope: for if the white help / more white helpeth more / and that which is moste white / helpeth moste of all to godliness. Although the church have authority to make ceremonies (so they be according to the rules before recited of God's glory / and profiting the congregation) I could for all that never yet learn / that it had power to give new significations / as it were to institute new sacraments. And by this means is taken clean away from us / the hold which we have against the papists / whereby (against all the goodly shows which they make by the color of these significations) we say / that the word of God / and the sacraments / of baptism / and of the supper of the Lord / are sufficient to teache / to admonish / and to put us in remembrance of all duty whatsoever. So we are now come to the superstition of the Grecians / for as they will have neither graven / nor carved image in their Churches / but painted / so we will nether have graven / nor carved / nor painted / but wouē. And truly I see no cause / why we may not have as well holy water & holy bread / if this reason which is here / be good: for I am sure y ^e significations of them are as glorious as this of the surplice / and call to remembrance as necessary things. And if it be said / that it may not be / least the number of ceremonies should be to too great / it may be easily answered / that these which we have may be taken away / and those set in place of them. And therefore although the surplice have a black spot / when it is whitest / yet is it not so black as you make it with your white significations / nor the cause so evil as you defend it. If you pres me with M. Martyrs / and M. Bucer's authority / I first say they were men / & therefore (although otherwise very watchful) yet such as slept sometimes. And then I appeal from their Apocryphas / unto their known writings / and from their private letters / unto their public records. M. Doctor proceedeth to prove that they are signs and shows of good / and not of evil / as the authors of the admonition allege. To the proof whereof / although (according to his manner) he repeateth diverse things before alleged / yet the sum of all he hath comprehended in an argument / which is / that for so much as the ministers are good which wear them / therefore they are also good: and because the ministers whereof the apparel are notes / and marks be good: therefore those be good notes and good marks: so the reason is they are notes / and notes of good ministers / therefore they be good notes of the ministers. So I will prove the names of idols / to be fit and convenient names for good men to be called by. Beltshaser / Shaddrake / Misacke / and Abed-nego were names of Daniel and his three companions / and they were the names of good men / therefore they are good names of men. And so the names of the Babylonian Idols / are by this reason of M. Doctor / justified to be good names. Again / y ^e golden calf was a sign. Also it was a sign of the true God: therefore it was a true sign of God. Concerning the notes of civil professions / and what difference is between those and this cause / I have spoken before.

You say the cause of discord is not in the apparel / but in the minds of men. You mean I am sure / those that refuse the apparel / but if you make them authors of discord / because they consent not with you in wearing / do you not see it is as soon said / that you are the causers of discord / because you do not consent with those which were not? for as there should be unity in that point / if all did wear that apparel / so should there be / if all did wear none of it. It is a very unequal comparison that you compare the use of this apparel / with the use of wine / and of a sword / which are profitable and necessary / but it is more intolerable / that you match it with the word of God. I could throw it as far down / as you lift it up / but I will not do so. Thys only I will say / if there were no harm in it / and that it were also profitable / yet for as much as it is not commanded of God expressly / but a thing (as you say) indifferent / and notwithstanding is cause of so many incommodities / and so abused (as I have before declared) it ought to be sufficient reason to abolish them: seeing that the brazen serpent which was instituted of the Lord him self / and contained a profitable remembrance of the wonderful benefit of God towards his people was beaten to powder / when as it began to be an occasion of falling unto the children of Israel: and seeing that S. Paul after the love feasts (which were kept at the administration of the Lord's supper / and were means to nourish love amongst the churches) were abused & drawn to another use thē they were first ordained, did utterly take them away / & command that they should not be used anymore.

The rest of that which followeth in this matter / is nothing else / but either that which hath been often times repeated / or else reprochefull words / or unjust accusations of contempt of magistrates / without any proof at all / and therefore are such / as either are answered / or which I will not vouchsafe to answer / especially seeing that I mean not to give reproach for reproach / and reviling for reviling: and seeing that I have before protested of our humble submission / and loving fear or reverence / which we bear to the Prince / and those which are appointed magistrates vnderneathe her.

And therefore I will conclude / that for so much as the ceremonies of Antichristianitie / are not / nor cannot be / the fittest to set forth the gospel / and for that they are occasions of fall to some / of hindrance to other some / of grief and alienation of minds unto others (the contrary of all which / ought to be considered in establishing of things indifferent in the church) therefore neither is this apparel fittest for the minister of the gospel / and if it were / yet considering the incommodities that come of the use of it / it should be removed.

To the next section in the. 62. and. 63. pages.

YOu know they allow studying for sermons / and amplifying and expounding of the scriptures / & why then do you ask? But by this question you would have your reader think / or at the least have the authors of the Admonition in suspicion / that they liked not of study for sermons. God make us more careful of the good name of our brethren / then by such light and ungrounded suspicions / nay without any suspicion / nay contrary to that which is daily seen and hard / to raise up such slanderous reports of them. But Homilies are smally beholding unto you / which to prove that they may be red in the church / allege that Augustine and Chrysostom made sermons in their churches: for that which we call a sermon / they called of the Greke word an Homilie / so that the argument is / that Augustine and Chrysostom preached sermons / or Homilies in their churches / therefore we may read homilies in ours. But peradventure you have some better thing to say for them afterward.

To the section beginning in the latter end of the. 63. page.

A Hundreth pounds by year is taken of some benefice / for which four sermons only are preached / and those sometimes by another. If this be more painful then gainful / it is because the horsse Leche hath two daughters / give / give. &c. And I cannot see howe they can be more glorious / unless the palace were turned into a court / and their chair into a throne. There are diverse places that God hath blessed with peace / where the ministers take more pain / and have les gain / and which make * les noise when they go in the streets. We have amongst us which have had Byshopprickes offered / and as things unmeet for a minister of the Gospel / have refused them. God be praised / the Sun shineth not so hot in this Country now / that you need to complain of any great heat / and if you feel any heat / you have better shade then Jonah had by his gourd.

To the next section beginning at the. 64. page / and holding on until the. 77. pages.

OF these offices something hath been spoken before / where it hath been proved out of the words of Christ / that neither the names / nor offices of Archbishop / or Archdeacons do agree to the ministry of the gospel. Now as M. Doctor bestoweth great cost here / and travail in digging about them / and laying (as it were) new earth to their roots / that they being half dead / if it were possible / might be recovered and quickened again / so I (because these trees mount up so high / and spread their boughs and arms so broad / that for the cold shade of them nothing can grow / and thrive by them) will before I come to answer these things that are here alleged / set down certain reasons (as it were instruments) to take away the superfluous loppe and spread of these immoderate offices.

And for the names first / I desire the reader that we be not thought studious of contention / because we strive about the name of Archbyshop. &c. for this is not to strive about words / unless it be counted a strife of words / which is taken for the maintenance of the word of God / as it hath before appeared out of the Evangelists. Then it must be remembered which Aristotle saith very well in his Elenches / that ta onomata ton pragmaton mimemata esti: which is / that names are imitations / or as it were express images of the things whereof they are names / and do for the most part bring to him that heareth them / knowledge of the things that are signified by them. Howsoever the thing be it self / yet oftentimes it is supposed to be as the name pretendeth / and thereupon followeth / that a man may be easily deceived / when the names do not answer to the things whereof they are names. There may be / I grant / a freer and more licentious use of names / but that license is more tolerable in anything / rather then in matters of the church and salvation. And if there be some cases / wherein names that are not so proper / may be borne with / yet are there also which are intolerable. As who can abide that a minister of the gospel / should be called by the name of a Levite / or sacrificer / unless it be he which would not care much / if the remembrance of the death / and resurrection of our savior Christ were plucked out of his mind? Again / it is unlawful for any man to take upon him those titles which are proper to our savior Christ: but the title of Archbyshop is only proper to our savior Christ / therefore no man may take that unto him. That it is proper to our savior Christ / appeareth by that which S. Peter saith / where he calleth him archipoimena: which is archshepheard or archbishop / for bishop & shepherd are all one. And in the Hebrews where he is called the great shepherd of the sheep / and in the Acts / and * Hebrews / archleader of life and of salvation / which titles are never found to be given unto any / but unto our savior Christ / and are proper titles of his mediation / and therefore cannot be without bold presumption applied unto any mortal man.

And it any man will reply and say / that it is not said that our savior Christ is only archbishop. I answer that he is not only said the head / and yet notwithstanding there is no more heads of the church but he. And if it be further said that these archbishops are but under / and as it were subordinate archbishops / I say that a man may as well say that men may be also under heads of y ^e church / which is the same which is alleged for the pope. Whych thing is not only true in those words which do signify / and set unlawful things before our eyes / but even in those names also which having no corruption in their own nature / yet through the corrupt use of men / have as it were gotten such a tacke of that corruption / that the use of them cannot be without offense.

In the primitive church / the name of a Pope was honest / and was all one with the name of a good pastor / but now by the ambition of the man of Rome / it is so defiled / that every good man shaketh at the very mention of it.

The name of a Tyranne / was first honorable / and the same with a king / and yet through cruelty / and unjust rule of certain / it is become now so hateful / that no upright and just dealing Prince / none that governeth with equitye / and to the commodity of his subjects / would bear to be called Tyranne: whereby it may appear / that it is not for naught that we do stand of these names. Now if the names ought to be odious / being both horribly abused / and also forbidden by our savior Christ / the things them selves must be in greater hatred / the unlawfulness whereof may thus appear.

First of all / the ministry is by the word of God / and heavenly / and not left to the will of men to devise at their pleasure / as appeareth by that which is noted of s. John / where the Pharisees coming to s. John the Baptist / after that he had denied to be either Christ / or Elias / or another Prophet / conclude / if y ^u be neither Christ / nor Elias / nor of the Prophets / why baptisest thou? which had been no good argument / if s. John might have been of some other function / then of those which were ordinary in the church / and instituted of God. And therefore S. John to establish his singular and extraordinary function / alledgeth the word of God / whereby appeareth / that as it was not lawful to bring in any strange doctrine / so was it not lawful to teache the true doctrine / under the name of any other function then was instituted by God.

Let the whole practice of the church under the law / be looked upon / and it shall not be found that any other Ecclesiastical ministry was appointed / then those orders of high priest / and priests / and Levites. &c. which were appointed by the law of God / & if there were any raised extraordinarily / the same had their calling confirmed from heaven / either by signs or miracles / or by plain & clear testimonies of the mouthe of God / or by extraordinarye exciting and movings of the spirit of God. So that it appeareth that the ministry of the gospel / and the functions thereof / ought to be from heaven / and of God / and not invented by the brain of men: from heaven / I say / and heavenly / because although it be executed by earthly men / & the ministers also are chosen by men like unto themselves / yet because it is done by the word and institution of God / that hath not only ordained that the word should be preached / but hath ordained also in what order / and by whom it should be preached / it may well be accounted to come from heaven / and from God.

Seeing therefore / that these functions of the Archbishop and Archdeacon are not in the word of God / it followeth that they are of the earth / & so can do no good / but much harm in the church. And if any man will say y ^e we do the church great injury / because we do tie her to a certain number of orders of ministers / as it were to a stake / so that she may not devise new functions / I say that both the church and Christ doth accuse him again. Christ estemeth him self to have injury / because that by this means he is imagined not to have been careful / and provident enough for his church / in that he hath left the ministry / wherein doth consist the life of the church (being that whereby it is begot̄) so raw and imperfect / y ^t by permitting of it to the ordering of men / there is a great danger of error / which he might have set without all danger / by a word or two speaking.

The church of the other side riseth against him / for that he maketh Christ les careful for her / then he was for that under the law. For tell me in the whole volume of the Testament is there any kind or degree of ministry / whereof God is not the certain and express author? was there ever any man (I except Jeroboam and such profane men) either so holy / or so wise / or of such great knowledge / that ever did so much as dream of instituting of a new ministry? After the long wandering of the Ark in the wilderness / when it came to be placed in Jerusalem / tell me if any besides the Levites and Priests / the ordinary ministers / and the Prophets which were immediately stirred up of God / were found to have ordained any office or title / which was not commanded / or whether there was at any time anything added / or enjoined to those offices of priesthood and Leuiteship / which was not by the law prescribed.

All men know that the Ark of Noah / was a figure of the church. Noah was both a wise and a godly man / yet what doth the Lord leave to his wisdom / when as he appointeth the matter / the form / the length / the breadth / the height / the wood / the kind and sort of wood.

In the tabernacle the church is yet more expressedly shown forth / Moses that was the overseer of the work / was a wise and a godly man / the artificers that wrought it / Bezalael / and Aholiab / most cunning workmen / and yet observe / howe the Lord leaveth nothing to their will / but telleth not only of the boordes / of the curtains / of the apparel / but also of the bars / of the rings / of the strings / of the hooks / of the besomes / of the snuffers / and of the things / the matter / and the form.

Let us come to the temple / which as it was more near the time of Christ / so it doth more lively express the church of God / which now is. Solomon the wisest man that ever was or shall be / doth nothing in it / neither for the temple nor for the vessels of the temple / nor for the beauty of it / but according to the form that was enjoined him / as appeareth in the Kings / and Chronicles. And in the restoring of that temple / Ezekiel is witness / howe the Angel by the commandment of God doth parte by parte / appoint all to be done both in the temple and in the furniture thereof.

Now if the holy ghost in Figures and Tropes doth so carefully / and as a man may speak / curiously comprehend all things: in the truth it self / howe much more is it to be thought that he hath performed this? If in the shadows / howe much more in the body / if he have done this in earthly things / and which are pearished / how is it to be thought that he hath not performed it in heavenly / and those which abide forever? And then tell me what are those times / of which it was said / the Messias when he cometh / will tell us all? Is it a like thing that he which did not only appoint the temple and the tabernacle / but the ornaments of them / would not only neglect the ornaments of the church / but also that / without the which (as we are borne in hand) it cannot long stand? shall we think that he which remembered the bars there / hath forgotten the pillars here? or he that there remembered the pins / did here forget the master builders? should he there remember the besomes / and here forget Archbishops / if any had been needful? there make mention of the snuffers to purge the lights / and here pass by the lights them selves? And to conclude / that he should make mention there of the motes / and here say nothing of the beams? there reckon up the gnattes / here keep silence of the Camels? what is this else / but that which Aristotle saith / ta mikra horan kai ta megala paroran: that is / to look to small things / and not to look to great / which if it cannot fall into the Lord / let it be a shame to say that the chief pillar and upholder of the church / is not expressed in the scripture / nor cannot be concluded of it.

Moreover those ministries without the which the church is fully built / and brought to perfection and complete unity / are not to be retained in the church: but without the ministries of Archbishop. &c. the church may be fully built and brought to perfection / therefore these ministries are not to be retained.

And that without these ministries the Church may be complete / it appeareth by that which is in the Ephesians / where it is said / that Christ gave some Apostles / some Prophets / some Evangelists / some pastors and Doctors / to the restoring of the saints unto the work of the ministry / until we all come to the unity of faith / and of the knowledge of the son of God / and unto a perfect man.

The learned writers have thus reasoned against the Pope: that for so much as Apostles / Prophets. &c. are sufficient for the building of the church / therefore there ought to be no Pope. The argument and necessity of the conclusion is as strong against the Archbishop / and all one. For by the same reason that the Pope is cast away as a superfluous thing / for that these offices are able to make perfect the Church / is the Archbishop likewise thrown out of the Church / as a knobbe or some lump of flesh / which being no member of the body / doth both burden it and disfigure it. And as they say that God gave no Pope to his church / therefore the Pope can do no good / so we may well say / God gave no Archbishop to his church / therefore the Archbishop can do no good.

Neither did God give any archdeacon to his church / therefore he cannot profit the church. But it will be said that this argument followeth not / because no mention is made here of the deacon or of the elder / which notwithstanding are both necessary in the church / and therefore that there are functions profitable in the church / whereof no mention is made here. But how easily do all men know / that the Apostle speaketh of those functions here only / which are conversant in the word / and have to do with the preaching thereof: and therefore made here no mention of the deacon or elder. It is said again / that in the Epistle to the Corinth. S. Paul speaketh only of Apostles / Prophets / and Doctors / leaving out Evangelists and pastors / and yet Evangelists and pastors necessary / and so although archbishops are not spoken of in the place to the Ephesians / yet they may not be therefore shut out as unnecessary. But they that say so / should have considered that the diversity of the matter which the Apostle handleth in these two places / bred a diverse kind of speech. For in the Epistle to the Corinthians / going about to condemn the ambition of men / which will thrust them selves into other men's callings / and take upon them to do all them selves / and to be as it were / eye / and ear / and hand and all. S. Paul proveth that the church is a body / wherein there are many members / and the same diverse one from another / and that it is not one member only. And to prove that / it was sufficient to say that he placed some Apostles / some Prophets / some Doctors / without rehearsing all the kinds of functions. But in the Epistle to the Ephesians / meaning to show the liberality of our savior Christ in giving those / which should be able by doctrine and teaching to make perfect and absolute his church / it was necessary that he should reckon up all those functions / whereby that work is done.

But how cometh it to pass that S. Paul neither in the one place / neither in the other / nor else where / maketh mention of the archbishop / which is said to be the chiefest pillar and under setter of the church? Now I hear what is said to this: that under the pastor is contained bishop / he is not contained / but is the same that pastor. How then? forsooth say they an archbishop is bishop / well then / of bishops some are archbishops / & some are what? Here I see that they are hanged in y ^e bush / but I will help them. Of bishops some are archbishops / some are by the common name bishops: For if they answer not thus / what have they to say? But what an absurd thing were that / to say that S. Paul comprehended an archbishop under a pastor or bishop / which neither was at that time / nor certain hundredth years after? this were not to devide / but to prophesy. And how is it that they never marked that S. Paul speaketh of those functions which were in the church / and not of those which should be afterward? and of those that God had given / and not of those which he would give? for the words are / (and he hath given.)

Moreover if so be under the pastor / the apostle comprehended an archbishop / then the archbishop is necessary / and such as the church cannot be without / and commanded of God / and therefore not taken up by the policy of the church for the time and country / and other circumstances / and such also as cannot be put down at the will of the church / which is contrary to the judgment of those / which are the archbishops patrons. The last refuge is / that the Apostle made mention of those functions / which have to do with the ministering of the word & sacraments / & not of those which have to do with order & discipline.

Speak in good earnest / had the Apostles nothing to do with discipline & order? with what face can you take away the rains of government out of the Apostles hands / and put them in the Archbishops and Archdeacons hands? what a perverseness is this / that the ministries invented by men / should be preferred to all the ministries appointed and commanded of God.

The Apostles forsooth have in common with the Archbishops and Archdeacons the power of ministering of the word and of the sacraments / of binding and losyng / and thus far as good as the Archbishops and Archdeacons: But for discipline and order / the Apostles have nothing to do / but herein Archbishops and Archdeacons are above them / and better then they.

Now syr / if I would follow your vain of making so many exclamations / as Oh the impudency / Oh the insolency / with twenty other such great Ohs / you see I have occasion both here and else where / but I would not gladly declaim / especially when I should dispute / nor make outcries instead of reasons.

But to come to this distinction: I had thought before this time / that the apostles had been y ^e * chief builders in setting up y ^e church: now I perceive you make the archbishops and archdeacons the chief builders / and the apostles under carpenters / or common masons / to serve and to take the commandment of the archbishop and archdeacon. And whereas it is said / that the ministers which S. Paul speaketh of / are in the word and sacraments / binding and loosing only / and that there be other which are besides these / occupied in the order and discipline of the church (of which number are archbishops and archdeacons) let us mark a little what deep divinity here is.

And first of all / I would gladly ask them / with what advise they have laid on a greater burden and weight of the archbishops and archdeacons shoulders / then the apostles were able to sustain?

Secondarily / I ask with what boldness / and upon the confidence of what gifts / any man dare take upon him both that which the apostles did / and more too? Then I say that it is too too unskillfully done / to separate order / and discipline from them that have the ministry of the word in hand / as though y ^e church without archbishops and archdeacons / were a confused heap / and a disordered lump / when as S. Paul teacheth it to be without them / a body consisting of all his partes and members / comely knit and joined together / wherein nothing wanteth / nor nothing is too much. Doth it not pertain to order / that the apostle saith / that God hath set first apostles / secondly prophets / thirdly teachers? are not these words (first / second / third / differences of order? if this be not order / surely I know not what order is. And yet neither archbishop nor archdeacon author of this / and it was kept also before they were hatched.

Let us see of discipline and government / which we may see to be committed to those / which have the preaching of the word / and to others also which did not preach the word / when S. Paul saith that the elders which govern well / are worthy double honor / especially those which travail in the word. Where he appointeth the government to the ministers of the word / and to those also that were not ministers of the word. And thereupon it followeth / that the ministers of the church are not severed one from another / as you sever them / because some have the ministration of the word and sacraments only / and some with the administration of the sacraments and word / have also the government and discipline in their hands / but clean contrariwise S. Paul distinguisheth them / and showeth that all y ^e ministers in the church have the gouermnent / but all have not the word to handle / so that he distinguisheth the ministry into that / which is occupied in the word and government / and into that which is occupied in the government only. But in this distinction you do not only forget S. Paul / but you forget yourself. For if S. Paul speak in that place of those that meddle with the ministering of the word and sacraments only: why doth the bishop which is one of the ministers that S. Paul speaketh of (being the same that pastor is) why I say doth he meddle with the discipline and order of the church / seeing that belongeth not to him by your distinction? why doth also the archbishop (whom you say is a bishop) meddle with it? and thus you see you need no other adversary then yourself / to confute you.

And least any man should say I confute mine own shadow / I must let him understand that there is a pamphlet in Latin / which is called the book of the doctors / which goeth from hand to hand / and especially (so far as they could bring to pass) to those only that they thought to favor that opinion / in the which book / all these answers unto the place of the Ephesians are contained / and almost all that which is comprehended in this defense of archbishops and archdeacons / with other things also which are found in this book of M. Doctors: and therefore it is very likely / that he having no other way to vente his rapsodies and rakings together / thought he would bring them to light after this sort / but how much better had it been / that this myshapen thing had had the mothers womb for the grave / or being brought out / had been hidden as the former is / in some bench hole or dark place / where it should never have seen any light / nor no man's eye should ever have looked of it? And thus all these clouds being scattered by the sun of truth / you see that the place to the Ephesians / standeth strong against the archbishop and archdeacon.

Now will I reason also after this sort out of the place of the Ephesians and Corinthyans joined together. There is no function but hath gifts fit and apt to discharge it / annexed and given unto it: whereupon the Apostle by a Metonomy / doth call the Apostles / Prophets. &c. gifts / because they have always gifts joined with them. Thys being granted (as no man can deny it) I reason thus.

Those functions only are sufficient for the church / which have all the gifts needful / either for the ministering of the word and sacraments / or for the government of the church: but all these functions reckoned of S. Paul to the Ephesians / with those which S. Paul calleth antilepseis, and kyberneseis (which are y ^e deacons and elders) have the gifts needful / either for the government of the church / either else for the ministering of the word and sacraments: therefore these functions only are sufficient for the church / for it is a superfluous thing to make more offices / then there be gifts to furnish them / for so they that should have them / should rather be idols then officers. And therefore for as much as there is no gift which falleth not into some of these functions / it is altogether a vain and unprofitable thing / to bring more offices and functions into the church besides these.

And so it may be thus reasoned. If men may make and erect new ministries / they must either give gifts for to discharge them / or assure men that they shall have gifts of God / whereby they may be able to answer them. But they can neither give gifts / nor assure men of any gifts necessary to discharge those functions / therefore they may make or erect no new ministries.

Last of all / I conclude against these made and devised ministries of archbishops and archdeacons after this sort. If men may add ministries / they may also take away / for those both belong to one authority: but they cannot take away those ministries that God hath placed in his church / therefore they cannot add to those that are placed in the church. And this foundation I thought first to lay / or ever I entered into M. Doctors not reasons / but authorities / not of God / but of men / in confuting of which / there will fall forth also other arguments against both these offices of archbishop / and archdeacon.

Now I will come to the examining of your witnesses / whereof some of them are so bored in the ears / and branded in their foreheads / that no man need to fear any credit they shall get before any judge wheresoever / or before whomsoever they come / but in the Romish court / and the papists only excepted. For to let go Polidore Virgil / because whatsoever he saith / he saith of the credit of another / let us come to Clement which is the author of this you speak. And what is he? is there any so blind that knoweth not that this was nothing less then Clement / of whom S. Paul speaketh / and which * some think was the first bishop of Rome ordained by Peter / and not rather a wicked helhounde / into whom the Lord had sent Satan to be a lying spirit in his mouth / to deceive them for their unthankful receiving of the gospel? And he must witness for the archbishop: a worthy witness. For as all that popish hierarchy came out of the bottomless pit of hell / so to uphold the archbishop the neck of it / whereupon that Romish monster standeth / are raised up from hell bastards / Clemens and Anacletus / and in deed as it may appear / the very natural sons of Satan / and the sworn soldiers of Antichrist.

A man would have thought / that the bishop of Salisbury master Jewel / had so pulled of the painting of the face of this Clement / that all good men would have had him in detestation / so far of would they have been to have alleged out of him to prove anything that is in controversy.

The bishop alledgeth both Eusebius and S. Jerome to prove / that none of those works which go in his name / are his. And although the proofs be strong which the bishop useth / being the witness of unsuspected witnesses: yet because y ^e law / although it allow two witnesses / notwithstanding doth like better of three / I will set down here also Irenaeus which was a great while before them both / and followed hard after the times of the true and vncounterfaite Clement / and therefore could best tell of him / and of his writings / & yet * he maketh mention but of one Epistle / which upon occasion amongst the Corinthians / he wrote to them. In deed in another place of that book / he showeth that it is very probable / that Clement also either wrote or turned the Epistle to the Hebrews. Now if that Epistle to the Corinthes / were extante / we should easily set by comparing those that are now in his name with that / what a my shapen thing this is.

And if so be that Irenaeus conjecture be good / that Clement was the author or interpreter of the Epistle to the Hebrews / then what horrible injury is done to the holy ghost / while the same is supposed the writer of this book to the Hebrews / which is the author of such beggary / as this Clement brought into the world? And I pray you / do you hold that it is the true christyan religion / which that book containeth? Coulde none of these consyderations drive you from the testimony of this Clement? it goeth very hard with the archbishop / when these Clementes and Anacletusses / must be brought to vnderproppe him.

But what if there be no such book as this is / which you name (when you say in his book entitled / compendiariū religions christianae) it is like you know not him / nor what he saith / when you cannot tell so much as his name. Only because Polidore writeth that Clement saith this / in a certain short & summary book of Christian religion / you have set down that he writeth thus in a book entitled compendiarium christianae religions / where there is no such title / neither in the councils where his Epistles are / neither yet in all other his works.

Thought you to disguise him with this new name of the book / that he should not be known? • or meant you to occupy your answerer in seeking of a book / which because he should never find / he should never answer. The place which Polidore meaneth / is in the first epistle which he writeth unto James / the brother of the Lord / which is as the rest are both ridiculous in the manner of writing / & in the matter oftener times wicked & blasphemous / which I speak to this ende / that the reader through the commendation that M. Doctor hath given to this Clement / in taking him as one of his witnesses in so great a matter / be not abused.

For answer unto him / although he be not worth the answering / I say that first it may be well said here of the office of the Archbyshop / that the father of it was an Amorite / and mother a Hittite / that is / that it cometh of very infamous parentage / the beginning thereof being of the idolatrous nations.

And whereas Clement maketh S. Peter the Apostle to make it as it were his adopted son / thereby to wipe away the shame of his birth / it doth S. Peter shameful injury. For besides that it was far from S. Peter / to take this authority to him self / not only of making archbishops through out every province / but also instituting a new order or office / without the council of the rest of the apostles / which none else of the apostles did / and which is contrary to the practice of S. Peter / both in the first and sixth of the Acts / contrary also to the practices of the apostles / which after shall appear: I say besides this / is it like that S Peter would grass the noblest plant (as it is said) of the ministry of the gospel / in such a rotten stock of that which was most abhominable in all idolarrie? for the greater they were in the service of the idols / the more detestable were they before God.

The Lord / when he would geuelawes of worshipping / unto his people / in the things that were indifferent / of shaving & cutting / and apparel wearing / saith to his people / that they should not do so / and so / because the Gentiles did so / yea even in those things / the use whereof was otherwise very profitable / and incommodious to forbear / he would have thē notwithstanding to abstain from / as from swine's flesh / conneys. &c. to the end that he might have them severed / as appeareth in S. Paul / by a great and high wall from other nations.

And therefore it is very unlike that S. Peter would frame the ministry of the gospel (which is no ceremony / but of the substance of the gospel) by the example of the heathenish / and idolatrous functions.

If one had said / that the Lord had shapen his common wealth / by the pattern of other common wealths / although it had been most untrue (all other flourishing common wealths of Athens / Lacedemon / & Rome / borrowing their good laws of the Lord's common wealth) yet had it been more tolerable: but to say he framed the ministry of the gospel / by the priesthood of idolatry / is to fetch chastity out of Sodom / and to seek for heaven in hell.

And if so be that the Lord had delighted in this hierarchy / he would rather have taken of his own / then borrowed of others / of his own church / then of the synagogue of Satan. For under y ^e law besides the Levites / there were priests / and above them a high priest.

And to say that Peter appointed archbyshoppes and bishops / by the example of the idolaters / is after a sort to make the law to come out of Egypt or Babylon / and not out of Zion or Jerusalem / as the Prophet saith. You say after that / James was an archbishop: if he were / he was the first / and placed over the Jews.

And although S. Peter might to gain the Gentiles / he content to use their idolatrous functions / with a little change of their names / yet there is none so mad / to think that he would translate any such function from the Gentiles unto the Jews / which were never before accustomed with any such Flamines / or Archiflamines. And this I dare generally and at once say against you and your Clement / that the Lord translated diverse things out of the Law / into the Gospel / as the Presbytery or eldership / excommunication / and the office of Deacons (as it is thought) for that the Sadducees / of whom so often mention is made in the gospel / are thought to have had that office to provide for the poor / for those that know the Hebrew tongue / do understand that tsaddikim and tsedacah, do not only signify justice and just men / but also alms and alms men: I say these and others more translated from the law unto the gospel / but neither you nor your Clement / shall ever be able to show / that the Lord ever translated anything from Gentelisme into the gospel.

We read in the Acts / that all the Gentiles were commanded to conform them selves unto the Jews in the abstaining from blood and strangled meat for a time / but we can never find that the Jews were commanded to conform them to the Gentiles in their ceremonies / the reason whereof is / because the one was sometimes the law of God / and therefore he that had conscience in it / was to be borne with / and the other came from men / and out of their forge / which the Lord would never give so much honor unto / as to make other men by any means subject unto them.

But what if there were no such offices amongst the Gentiles & Pagans / as Archiflamines / or Protoflamines? whereof before I show the conjectures which I have / I must give the (gentle reader) to understand / that I am not ignorant that there are diverse which say there were such offices amongst the Gentiles / and namely here in England / that there were. 25. Flamines / and three Archiflamines / whereof were made three archbishops / of London / Canterbury / and York / and. 25. Bishops / as Platine hath in the chapter Eleutherius: And Galfridus Monemutensis in his seconde book and first chapter. And Lumbarde in his fourth book speaketh of it / as of a general thing that was in all places where Paganism was. But if so be that the religion of other Pagans did follow / and was like unto that of the Romaines (which is very probable) they being then the rulers of the whole world in a manner / unto whose example all men do lightly conform them selves / even without commandment / then there is great likelihood / there were no such archiflamines / or protoflamines out of Tully / which showeth that there was amongst the Romaines divers kinds of priests / whereof some were called flamines / of a several attire which they ware always of their heads / other pontifices, and a thir ••• sort were called Salij, and that the chief of these Flamines / was called fl • me • •• all • s, who was also distinguished from the rest / up a white hatte / but of any archiflamines / or protoflamines / he maketh no mention at all / and therefore it is like that there was never any such office amongst the Pagans.

And if there were / I have shown how wicked it is to say that Peter framed the ministry of the gospel by it. Now let it be seen of all men / how strongly you have concluded / that the names of archbyshoppes are not antichristian / when as it is most certain / that he was a pillar of antichrist / upon whom your reason is grounded.

The times wherein Volusianus lived / declare suffyciently how little credit is to be given to his testimony / which were when the mass had place / if not so wicked as it was after / yet notwithstanding far differing from the simplicity of the supper which was left by our savior Christ. And Eusebius is of more credit in this then Volusianus / which saith of the report of Dionisius bishop of Corinth / that S. Paul made Dionisius Areopagita bishop of Athens: he saith not archbishop / but bishop / although he speak twice of it. And in the preface before his works / it is fayde / that after his conversion / he went to Rome to Clement / and was sent with others of Clement / into the West partes / and that he came to Paris / and was there executed / whether so ever of these opinions is true / that falleth which Volusianus affirmeth. And if either Volusianus or you / will have us beeleue that Dyonisius Areopagita was archbishop of Athens / you must show some better authority then Eusebius or Dyonisius bishop of Corinth / and then your cause shall have at the least some more color of truth.

Erasmus followeth / which saith Titus was archbishop of Crete / whom I could answer with his own words / for I am sure he will grant me / that Titus & Timothy had one office / the one in Ephesus / the other in Crete: but it appeareth by Erasmus his own words / that Timothy was but bishop of Ephesus / therefore Titus was but bishop of Crete. For Erasmus in his argument upon the first Epistle of Timothy / saith that S. Paul did enfornie Timothy of the office of a bishop / and of the discipline of the church: If either he had been an archbishop / or an archbishop had been so necessary as it is made / he would have instructed him in that also.

And I pray you tell me / whether Erasmus or the Greek Scholiast / be more to be beeleeued in this point / out of whom is taken that which is in the latter ende of the Epystles to Tymothe and Tytus / where they both are called the first elected Bishops that ever were / either of Ephesus or Creta. For my parte I think they were neither Bishops nor Archbyshoppes / but Evangelists / as shall appear afterwards: But it may be sufficient to have set against Erasmus authority / the authority of the Scholiaste. And if here you will cavil and say that the Scholiaste which saith he was Byshoppe / denieth not but that he also was an Archbyshoppe / because an archbishop is a bishop / it may be answered casely / that the Scholiaste did not speak nor write so improperly / as to call them by the general name of bishop / whom he might as easily have called (if the truth would have let him) by a more proper and particular name of archbishop. And further in this dyuision of the ministers / the archbishop and the bishop are members of one dyuision / and therefore one of them cannot be affirmed and said of another / for that were contrary to the nature of a true dyuision.

And yet I have a further answer / both to Erasmus and Volusianus / and whatsoever other have written after this sort / that they speak & gave titles to those men they wrote of / not according to that which they were / but according to the custom and manner of that age wherein they wrote. And so we may read that Vincentius and Nicephorus writing of Victor / speak far otherwise of him / then Eusebius doth / which notwithstanding wrote of the same man which they did. The one calleth Victor the Pope of Rome. And the other saith / that in glory he passed all the bishops before him / which Eusebius never maketh any word of. Even so Volusianus and Erasmus / living in the times when as they which were the most esteemed in the ministry / were called archbishops / call Titus and Dyonisius archbishops / upon whom depended the chief care of those churches which they governed.

There followeth Anacletus / another of these witnesses / which must depose that the name of an archbishop is not antychristian / of whom / as of Clement that went before / and Anicetus which followeth after / the common proverb may be verified / Ask my fellow if I be a thief. And although the answerer be ashamed of him / and saith therefore he will omit him / yet even very need dryueth him / to bring him in / and to make him speak the uttermost he can. And this honest man saith / that James was the first archbishop of Jerusalem. But Eusebius saith / James was bishop / not archbishop of Jerusalem / and appointed by the apostles. And in another place / he saith / that the apostles did appoint after his death / Simeon the son of Cleophas / bishop of Jerusalem. And Irenaeus saith / that the apostles in all places appointed bishops unto the churches / whereby it may appear what an idle dream it is of Clement / Volusianus / and Anacletus / either that Peter did this by his own authority / or that the primitive church was ever staynes with these ambytious titles of patriarche / prymate / metropolytane / or archbishop / when as the stories make mention / that thorough out every church / not chery province / not by Peter or Paul / but by apostles / a bishop / not an archbishop / was appointed.

And here you put me in remembrance of another argument against the archbishop / which I will frame after this sort. If there should be any archbishop many place / the same should be either in respect of the person or minister and his excellency / or in respect of the magnificence of the place: but the most excellent ministers that ever were / in the most famous places / were no archbishops / but bishops only / therefore there is no cause why there should be any archbishop. For if there were ever minister of a congregation worthy / that was James / if there were ever any citte that ought to have this honor / as that the minister of it should have a more honorable title / then the ministers of other cities and towns / that was Jerusalem / where the son of God preached / and from whence the gospel issued out unto all places. And afterward that Jerusalem decayed / and the church there / Antioch was a place where the notablest men were that ever have been since / which also deserved great honor / for that there the * disciples were first called Christians / but neither was that called the first and chiefest church / neither the ministers of it called the Arche or principal bishops. And Eusebius to declare that this order was firm and durable / showeth that S. John the Apostle / which over lived the residue of the Apostles / ordained bishops in every church.

These two / Anacletus and Anicetus / you say / are suspected / why do you say suspected / when as they have been convinced and condemned / and stand upon the pillery / with the cause of forgery written in great letters / that he which runneth may read? Some of the papists them selves / have suspected them / but those which maintain the truth have condemned them as full of popery / full of blasphemy / and as those in whom was the very spirit of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctrine.

And do you mark what you say / when you say that these are but suspected? Thus much you say / that it is suspected / or in doubt / whether the whole body of popery and antichristianitie were in the Apostles time / or sone after or no / for Clement was in the Apostles time / and their scholar / and so you leave it in dout, whether the apostles appointed and were the authors of popery or no. I think if ever you had red the Epistles / you would never have cited their authorities / nor have spoken so favorably of them as you do.

You come after to the council of Nice / wherein I will not stick with you / that you say it was holden the .CCC. xxx. year of the Lord / when as it may appear by Eusebius his Computation / that it was holden. Anno Domini CCC xx. and here you take so great a leap / that it is enough to break the archbishoppes neck / to skippe at once .CCC. years / (that is / from the time of the apostles / until the time of the council of Nice) without any testimony of any / either father / or story of faith and credit / which maketh once mention of an archbishop. What no mention of him in Theophilus / bishop of Antioch? none in Ignatius? none in Clemens Alexandrinus / none in Justin Martyr / in Irenaeus / in Tertullian / in Origin / in Cyprian / none in all those old Historiographers / out of the which Eusebius gathereth his story? Was it for his baseness and smalnes / that he could not be seen amongst the bishops / elders / and deacons / being the chief and principal of them all? can the Ceder of Lebanon be hid amongst the box trees? Aristotle in his Rhethorike ad Theodecten, saith / that it is a token of contempt / to forget the name of another / belike therefore if there were any archbishop / he had no chair in the church / but was as it seemeth / digging at the metalles. For otherwise they that have filled their books with the often mentioning of bishops / would have no doubt remembered him. But let us hear what the council of Nice hath for these titles.

In the. 6. canon mention is made of a metropolitan bishop: what is that to the metropolitan which is now / either to the name / or to the office? of the office it shall appear afterwards. In the name I think there is a great difference / between a metropolitan bishop / & metropolitan of England / or of all England. A Metropolitan bishop was nothing else / but a bishop of that place / which it pleased the Emperor or magistrate to make the chief city of the diocese or shire / and as for this name / it maketh no more difference between bishop and bishop / then when I say a minister of London / and a minister of Nuington. There is no man that is well advised / which will gather of this saying / that there is as great difference in preeminence between those two ministers / as is between London / and Nuington: for his office and preeminence / we shall see hereafter.

There are alleged to prove the names of archbishops / patriarchs / archdeacons / the. 13. 25. 26. and. 27. Canons of the council of Nece. For the. 25. 26. 27. there are no such canons of that council: and although there be a thirtenthe canon / there is no word of patriarch / or archdeacon / there contained. And I marvel with what shame you can thrust upon us these counterfeit canons which come out of the popes minte / yea / and which are not to be found. Theodoret saith / that there are but twenty Canons of the council of Niece / and those twenty are in the tome of the councils / and in those there is no mention of any patriarch / archdeacon / archbishop. Ruffine also remembereth. 22. Canons / very little differing from those other twenty / but in length / and in none of those are found any of these names of archbishop / archdeacon / patriarch. And it is as lawful for M. Harding to allege the. 44. canon of the council of Nece / to prove the supremacy of the Pope of Rome / as it is for M. doctor Whitgift / to allege the. 25. 26. 27. to prove the name of archbishop / archdeacon / patriarch: for they are all of one stamp / and have like authority.

I fear greatly / some crafty dissembling papist had his hand in this boke / who having a great deal of rotten stuff / which he could not utter under his own name (being already lost) brought it unto the author hereof / which hath upon his credit without further examination / set it to sale. Peradventure you will think scorn to be censured and reprehended of a poor minister of the country / and therefore I will turn you over for your lesson in this behalf / unto the bishop of Salisbury in his Reply against M. Harding / touching the article of the supremacy. If all should be allowed of / that S. Ambrose alloweth of / then besides other things which he holdeth corruptly / the marriage of the ministers should go very hard: But it is worthy to be observed / with what words Amb. doth allow of the archbishop / that all men may understand / howe low it goeth with M. Doctor / for his defense of the archbishop / and howe the archbishop is so out of credit / that there cannot be gotten any to be surety for his honesty.

Ambrose complaining of the ministers or bishops in those days / saith / it a man ask them / who preferred them to be priests / answer is made by and by / that the archbishop for an hundredth shillings / ordained me bishop / to whom I gave a hundredth shillings / that I might get the favor to be bishop / which if I had not given / I had not been bishop. And afterward he saith / that this grieved him / that the archbishop ordained bishops carnally / or for some carnal respect. And this is all the allowance that Ambrose showeth of an archbishop. Your archbishop taketh all things in good parte / so that his very dispraise he expoundeth to his commendation. And there is great likelihood / that the archbishop which Ambrose maketh mention of / was no other / then he which for the time ruled the action / wherein bishops were ordained / and after the action ended / had no more authority then the rest.

And I am moved so to think. First / because it is not like / that one only ordained bishops / being contrary to the old Canons of the best councils / but that there were other / and that this whom Ambrose calleth archbishop / did gather the voices. &c.

Secondly / because it was very unlike / that there was any absolutely / above S. Ambrose / in those partes where he complaineth of evil bishops / or ministers made.

Thirdly / for that Ambrose in another place (which you after cite) deviding all the church into the cleargye and laitye / doth subdeuide the clergy into bishops / elders / and deacons / and therefore it is not like that there was any which had any continual function of archbishop. But as he was called choregos or leader of the daūce / which cometh first / and after coming in again in the second or third place / is no more so called: so that bishop was called archbishop / which for the time present did gather the voices of the rest of the bishops / which he by & by laid down with the dissolving of the meeting. And that this is not my conjecture only / that there was no ordinarye or absolute archbishop / let the Centuries be seen / which allege that place of Ambrose / to prove that the office of an archbishop / was not then come into the church / which was. 400 years after Christ / and more also.

Basil you say the great Metropolitan of Cappadocia. I have shown what the word metropolitan signifieth / and howe there was not then such a metropolitan as we have now / and as y ^e admonition speaketh against. You play as he which is noted as none of the wisest amongst y ^e merchants / which thought that every shyp that approached the haven / was his ship: for so you think that wheresoever you read metropolitan or archbishop / forthwith you think there is your metropolitan or your archbishop / whereas it shall appear / that besides the name / they are no more like then a bishop with us / is like a minister.

I cannot tell whether you would abuse your reader here / with the fallacion of the accent / because this word (Great) is so placed between Basil and metropolitan / that it may be as well referred to the metropolitan / as to Bastle / and so you having put no comma, it seemeth you had as l • eve have your reader read great metropolitan / as great Basil. But y ^t the simpler sort be not deceived thereby / it is not out of the way to let the reader understand / what a great metropolitan this was / which * appeareth / for that when he was threatened by the magistrate / confiscation of his goods / answered / that he was not afraid of the threatenings / and that all his goods were a very few books / and an old gown / such were then those Metropolitans / under whose shadows M. Doctor goeth about to shroude all this pomp / and princely magnificence of our archbyshoppes.

As for Simeon archbishop of Seleucia / I will not deny / but at that time was the name of archbishops / for then Satan had made through the titles of archbishop / primate / patriarch / as it were three stayers / whereby antichrist might clime up into his cursed seat. Notwithstanding there wanted not good decrees of godly councils / which did strike at these proud names / and went about to keep them down / but the swelling waters of the ambition of diverse / could not by any banks be kept in / which having once broken out in certain places / afterwards covered almost the face of the whole earth.

This endeuoure of godly men / may appear in the council of Carthage / which decreed that the bishop of the first seat / should not be called exarchon ton hieron, e akron ierea, e toiouton tipore: that is / either the chief of the priests / or the high priest / or any such thing / by which words (any such thing) he shutteth out the name of archbishop / and all such haughty titles.

The same decree also was made in the Affricane council / and if you say that it was made against the Pope of Rome / or to forbid that any man should be called archbishop / show me where there was either bishop of Rome / or any other that ever made any such title or challenge / to be the general bishop of all / at that time / when this council of Carthage was holden: when as the first of those which did make any such challenge / was the bishop of Constantinople / which notwithstanding challenged not the preeminence first over all / but that he might ordain bishops of Asia / Pontus / Thracia / which were before appointed by their Sinodes / and this was in the council of Chalcedon / which was long after that council of Carthage before remembered.

For to prove the lawfulness of the name of an archdeacon / the antiquitye / the necessity of it / the testimonies of four are brought / which neither speak of their lawfulness / nor of their necessity / and they say not in deed so much as God save them: and two of these witnesses are Popes / whereof the first / and best / ordained that if the Metropolitan did not fetch his pall at the apostolic sea of Rome / within three months after he were consecrated / that then he should lose his dignity / as Gratian witnesseth in the decrees y ^• he ascribeth unto Damasus.

I doubt not therefore that this is but a forger / upon whom you would father the archdeacon / for that Damasus / in whose place you put this forger / lived An. 387. at what time the sea of Rome had no such tirannye as this / and other things which are fathered of him / do pretend. And if this be enough to prove archdeacons / I can with better witness prove subdeacons / acoluthes, exorcistes, lectores, ostiarios, these doth Eusebius make mention of / an auncienter writer / then any you bring / and out of Ruffine / Theodoret / Sozomen / Socrates. &c. monks almost in every page. And here upon it is more lawful for me to conclude / that monks / subdeacons / exorcistes, acoluthes, ostiarij, lectores, are necessary ecclesiastical orders in the church / as you conclude the necessity of the archdeacon.

I perceive you care not whether the archdeacon fall or no / that you bestow so little cost of him / and leave him so nakedly. And if I would be but half so hold in conjectures / and diuinations / as you are / I could say that this sleighte handling of the archdeacon / and sweating so much about the archbishop / is thereupon y ^• you woid be loath to come frō being dean / to be an archdeacon / & you live in some hope of being archbishop / but I will not enter so far. And surely for anything that I see / you might have trussed up the archbishop as short / as you do the archdeacon. For they stand upon one pin / and those reasons which establish the one / establish the other / whereupon also cometh to pass / that all those reasons which were before alleged against the archbishop / may be drawn against the archdeacon / having therefore before proved the unlawfulness of them / I will here set down the difference between those archdeacons that were in times past / and those which are now / whereby it may appear they are nothing like / but in name.

They were no ministers / as appeareth in Sozomen / ours are.

They were tied to a certain church / and were called archdeacon of such a congregation or church / ours are tied to none / but are called archdeacons of such a shire.

They were chosen by all the Deacons of the church where they be archdeacons / ours are appointed by one man / and which is no deacon.

They were subject to the minister of the word / ours are above them / and rule over them.

It was counted to them great arrogancy / if they preferred thenselves to any minister or elder of the church / ours will not take the best ministers of the church as their equalles. If therefore archdeacons will have any benefit by the archdeacons of old time / it is meet they should content them selves with that place which they were in.

As for the office of a dean / as it is used with us / it is therefore unlawful / for that he being minister / hath no several charge or congregation appointed wherein he may exercise his ministry / and for that he is ruler / and as it were master of diverse other ministers in his college / which likewise have no several charges of congregations: and for that which is most intolerable both he him self oftentimes having a several church or benefice / as they call it / is under the color of his deaneship / absent from his church / and suffereth also those that are vnderneathe him / to be likewise absent from their churches. And whereas M. Doctor allegeth S. Augustine / to prove this office to be ancient / in deed the name is there found / but besides the name / not one propertye of that Dean which we have. For Augustine speaking of the monks of those days / saith / that the money which they gate with the labor of their hands / they gave to their dean / which did provide them meat and drink / and cloth / and all things necessary for them / so that the monks should not be drawn away from their studies and meditations / through the care of worldly things / so that this dean which he speaketh of / was servant and steward / and cater to the monks / and therefore only called dean / because he was steward and cater to ten monks. Now let it be seen what Augustine's dean / maketh for the dean which is now / and what faith and trust M. Doctor useth / in reciting of the old fathers.

And unto the ende that these testimonies might be more autenticall / & have some weight in them / M. Doctor addeth / that hitherto antichrist had not invaded the seat of Rome. You shall have much a do / to prove that antichrist had not invaded the sea of Rome / when your Clement / Anaclete / Anicete / and Damasus wrote. Nay / it is moste certain / that then he had possessed it. But what is that to the purpose / although there was no one singular head appeared / or lifted up / yet corruption of doctrine / and of the sacraments / hurtful ceremonies / dominion and pomp of the cleargye / new orders and functions of the ministry / which were the hands that pulled him / the fete which brought him / the shoulders that lifted and heaued him up into that seat / were in the church. Neither / while you do thus speak / do you seem to remember that this monster needed nine months / but almost nine hundredth years / to be framed and fashioned / or ever he could with all his partes be brought to light. And although the Loouer of this antichristian building were not set up / yet y ^e foundations thereof being secretly / and under the ground laid in the apostles times / you might easily know / that in those times that you speak of / the building was wonderfully advanced and grown very high. And being a very dangerous thing to ground any order or policy of the church upon men at all / which in deed ought to have their standing upon the doctrine and orders of the apostles / I will show what great injury M. Doctor doth / to send us for our examples and patterns of government to these times / which he doth direct us unto.

Eusebius out of Egesippus / writeth / that as long as the apostles lived / the church remained a pure virgin / for that / if there were any that went about to corrupt the holy rule that was preached / they did it in the dark / & as it were digging underneath the earth. But after y ^e death of the apostles / and y ^e generation was past / which God vouchsaved to hear the divine wisdom with their own ears / then the placing of wicked error / began to come into the church.

Clement also in a certain place to confirm that there was corruption of doctrine immediately after the apostles times / alledgeth the proverb / that there are few sons like their fathers.

And Socrates saith of the church of Rome and Alexandria (which were the most famous churches in the apostles times) that about the year. 430. the Romaine and Alexandrian bishops / leaving the sacred function / were degenerate to a seculare rule or dominion. Wherevpon we see howe that it is safe for us to go to the scriptures / and to the apostles times / for to fetch our government and order. And that it is very dangerous to draw from those rivers / the fountains whereof are troubled and corrupted / especially when as the ways whereby they run / are muddier and more fennie / then is the head it self.

And although M. Doctor hath brought neither scripture / nor reason / nor council / wherein there is either name of archbishop or archdeacon / or proved that there may be / & although he show not so much as the name of them. 400. years after our savior Christ. And although where he showeth them / they be either by counterfeit authors / or without any word of approbation of good authors / yet as though he had shown all / and proved all / having shown nothing / nor proved nothing / he clappeth the hands to himself / and putteth the crown upon his own head / saying / that those that be learned / may easily understand / that the names / archbishop / archdeacon / primate / patriarche / be most ancient and approved of the eldest / best / worthiest councils / fathers / writers. And a little afterward / that they are unlearned / and ignorant / which say otherwise.

Here is a victory blown with a great and sounding trumpet / that might have been piped with an oten straw. And if it should be replied again / that M. Doctor hath declared in this / little learning / little reading / and les judgment / there might grow controversies without all fruit. And by and by / in saying that y ^e archbishops beginning is unknown / instead of a bastard / which some brought into the church / that hid them selves because they were ashamed of the child / he will make us believe that we have a new Melchizedek / without father / without mother / and whose generation is not known / and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine / as far as he remembereth in the. 118. epistle to January: that the original of them is from the apostles them selves.

Here M. Doctor seemeth to seek after some glory of a good memory / as though he had not Augustine by him / when he wrote this sentence. And yet he marvelously forgetteth him self / for he used this place before in his. 23. page / and citeth it there precisely and absolutely / where also I have shown howe unadvisedly that sentence of Augustine is approved / & howe that thereby a window is open to bring in all popery / and whatsoever other corrupt opinions. That the names of Lord's / and honor / as they are used in this realm / are not meet to be given to the ministers of the gospel / there hath been spoken before.

As for Prelate of the Garter / if it be a needful office / there are inow to execute it besides the ministers / which / for as much as they be appointed to watch over the souls of men purchased with the blood of Christ / all men understand / that it is not meet that they should attend upon the body / much les upon the leg / and least of all upon the Garter. It is not unlawful for Princes to have ministers of their honor / but also it is not lawful to take those that God hath appointed for another ende / to use to such purposes.

Thou seest here (good Reader) that M. Doctor keepeth his old wont of manifest perverting of the words and meaning of the authors of the admonition / for where as they say / that the name of Earl / County Palatine / Justice of peace / and Quorum / Commissioner / are antichristian / when they are given to ministers of the church / whose calling will not agree with such titles / he concludeth simply / that they say that they be altogether unlawful / and simply antichristian. As / if I should reason that it is not meet that the Queens majesty should preach or minister the Sacraments / therefore it is not meet that there should be any preaching or ministering of the sacraments.

Now letting pas all your hard words / & unbrotherly speeches / with your uncharitable Prognostications / and cold prophesies / I will come to examine / whether you have any better hap in proving the office / then you had in proving the name.

And whereas in the former treatise of the name of the archbishop / he blew y ^e trumpet before the victory / here in this of the office he bloweth it / before he cometh into the field / or striketh one stroke / saying / that they little consider what they write / that they are contemners of ancient writers / & that they never red them / and that they are unlearned / which deny these things which he affirmeth. Well / what we read / & how unlearned we are / is not the matter which we strive for. The judgment thereof is first with God / and then with the churches / and in their judgments we are content to rest. But if you be so greatly learned / and we so unlearned / and smally red / then the truth of our cause shall more appear / that is maintained with so small learning & reading / against men of such profound knowledge and great reading. And yet I know not why (if we be not to idle) we should not be able to read as much as you / which may have leisure to read a good long writer / or ever you can ride / only to see / and salute your houses and livings / being so many / and so far distāt one from another. And if we be so unlearned / and hold such dangerous opinions of Papistry and Anabaptistry / as you bear men in hand we do / why do you not by the example of the ministers in Germany / procure a public disputatiō / where you may both win your spurs / and such detestable opinions / with the ignorance of the authors / may be displayed unto the whole world? But let us hear what is said.

Cyprian (saith he) speaking of the office of an archbishop. &c. Unless (good reader) thou wilt first believe that Cyprian speaketh of an archbishop / and haste before conceived a strong imagination of it / M. Doctor can prove nothing. Aristotle saith that vncunning Painters / write the names of the beasts which they painte in their tables / for because otherwise it could not be known what they painte: so M. Doctor mistrusting that the archbishop will not be known by his description / writeth first the name of that he will paint out.

Thys is it which we strive about / whereof the controversy is / and this M. doctor taketh for granted. He accuseth the authors of the admonition / for faulting in the petition of the principle / or desiring to have that granted which is denied / & yet I am sure / that in the whole admonition / there is not such a gross petition as this is. Where / or in what words doth S. Cyprian speak of the office of an archbishop? And here by the way it is to be observed of the reader / how near a kin the Pope and the archbishop be. For this office is confirmed by the same places / that the popes is / the places and arguments which are brought against him / are soluted with the same solutions that they use / which maintain the papacy. For these places of Cyprian be alleged for the popes supremacye / and in deed they make as much for the Pope / as for the archbishop. For / although they be two heads / yet they stand upon one neck / and therefore the reformed churches which cut right / did strike them both of at one blow. In neither of the sentences here alleged out of Cyprian / nor in all his works / as hath been before noted / is there one word of an archbishop / and yet M. doctor saith that he speaketh of an archbishop.

Before he shown the name without the office / and now he goeth about to show the office without the name / so that he can never make both the name and office meet together. To shape out an archbishop here / you must needs interpreate the words (bishop and priest) archbishop and high priest / for Cyprian maketh mention of no other name of ministry in those places. And if you may have this scope of interpreating / it will not be hard for you / to prove that stones be bread / and that chaulke is cheese. Let us see what is a bishop or priest (I use the name of priest against my will / but because it is sacerdos, & you so translate it / that it may be better understanded what I answer to you / I am content to follow you so far) I say let us consider what is a bishop or priest by S. Cyprian / and thereby we shall know / what an archbishop he setteth forth unto us. Whych thing may appear manifestly / by that which he saith in the same Epistle / that the bishop that is appointed into the place of him that is dead / is chosen peaceably by the voice of all the people.

I think you will not say that all the people through out the whole province / or through out a whole diocese (as we count a diocese) met together / for that had been both a great disorder and confusion / a great charge to the church / and in the time of persecution as that was / to have offered the whole church in all the province / into the mouthe of the wolf.

And least peradventure you should have this hole to hide yourself in / saying that it might be procured / that in every church or parish through out either the province or diocese / the consent of the people might be asked / and they tarry in their places where they dwell / Cyprian in the next epistle / doth put the matter out of all question / saying that the priest (whom he after calleth bishop) is chosen in the presence of the people / & in the eyes of all / so that Cyprians bishop / whom you will needs have an archbishop / had neither province nor diocese / as we call a diocese / but only a church or congregation / such as the ministers and pastors with us / which are appointed unto several towns. Which may further appear / in that Cyprian saith / that out of one province there were. 90. bishops / which condemned Priuatus. Now / if there were. 90. bishops in one province which met / and yet not all that were in that province (as may appear out of the same Epistle) all men do understand that the scope that Cyprians bishop or archbishop (as you will have him) had / was no such thing as a diocese or a province. I could bring infinite testimonies out of Cyprian / to prove that the bishop in his time / was nothing else but S. Paul's bishop / that is / one that had cure and charge of one flock / which was so placed as it might be taught of him / and overseen by him / and governed by him / and of whom in matters pertaining to God / it might depend.

Furthermore / to shape the archbishop by these places of Cyp. you must be driven to expound this word (church) province. The papists (which cite this place for the pope / as you do for the archbishop) expound the word (church) here / to be the whole church universal and catholic / and in deed / although it be falsely expounded so in this place / yet may they do it with more probability and likelihood / then to expound it a province / forsomuch as these words (the church) is oftener red / both in the scripture / and old writers / to signify the whole church / then any province of one realm. But let Cyprian expound him self what he meaneth by a church here / although that may easily appear by that / which is spoken of S. Cyprian his bishop. Whereas Cyprian declareth / that Cornelius the bishop of the church which was in Rome / would not let Felicissimum a Nouation heretic / being caste out by the bishops of Afric / to enter into the church / he declareth sufficiently / that he meaneth that company of the faithful / which were gathered together at Rome / to hear the word / and to communicate at the sacraments. For it was not Cornelius part to shut him out of the province / neither indeed could he / him self being not able without hazard (by reason of the persecution that then was) to tarry in any part of the province. Again / speaking against the Nouatian heretic / he showeth that through his wicked opinion of denying of repentance to those that were fallen / the confession of faults in the church was hindered. Now it is manifest that confession was not made through out the province / but in that particular church where the partye dwelt that committed the fault. Therefore Cyprian understandeth by the name of the church / neither diocese (as we call diocese) and much les a whole province. And in the same Epistle / speaking of those which had fallen / he saith / that they durst not come so much / as to the threshold / or entry of the church / where he also opposeth the church to the province / saying that they roue about the province / and run about to deceive the brethren. Seeing therefore / the bishop which Cyprian speaketh of / is nothing else but such as we call pastor / or as the common name w ^t us is parson / and his church whereof he is bishop / is neither diocese nor province / but a congregation which mete together in one place / & to be taught of one man / what should M. doctor mean to put on this great name of archbishop / upon so small a byshoppricke? as it were Saul's great harnes / upon David his little body / or as if a man should set a wide huge porche / before a little house.

And least that M. doctor should say / that notwithstanding the bishops had but several churches / yet one of them might have either a title more excellent then the rest / or authority and government over the rest / that shall be likewise considered out of Cyprian. And first for the title and honor of archbishop / it appeareth how Cyprian held that as a proud name / for that he objecteth to Florentius as a presumptuous thing / for that in believing certain evil reports of him / and misjudging of him / he did appoint him self bishop of a bishop / and judge over him / which was for the time / appointed of God to be judge. And herein also / I may use the same reasons which the godly writers of our times use against y ^e pope / to prove y ^t he had no superiority in those days over other bishops / for that the other bishops called him brother / and he them / called him fellow bishop / & he them. For so doth Cyprian cal y ^e bishops of that province in his epistle / his fellow bishops / and in diverse places his brethren. And in the sentence which he spake in the council of Carthage / he saith / none of us doth take him self to be bishop of bishops.

Now / that there was no authority of one bishop over another / and that there was none such / as when controversies roase / took upon him the compounding of them / or any one to whom it appertained / to see the unity of the church kept / and to see that all other bishops / and the clergy / did their duty (as M. Doctor beareth us in hand) it may clearly be seen in diverse places of Cyprian / and first of all in that sentence / which he spake in the council of Carthage, where he proceedeth further after this sort / that none of them did by any tirannicall fear / bind his fellows in office / or any fellow bishops / to any necessity of obedience / seeing that every bishop hath for his free liberty and power / his own judgment or discretion / as one which cannot be judged of another / as he also him self / cannot judge another. But (saith he) we ought to tarry and wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ / which only / and alone / hath power to set us over his church / & to judge of our doing. And in the same Epistle whereout the first place is taken by M. Doctor / he saith that unto everyone a portion of the flock is appointed / which everyone must rule and govern / as he that shall render an accompt of his deed unto the Lord. And in another place he saith / we do not use any compulsion or violence over any / nor appoint no law to any / seeing that everyone that is set over the church / hath in the government / the free disposition of his own will / whereof he shall give an accompt unto the Lord. And yet Cyprian was the bishop of the metropolitan or chief seat / and one whom for his learning and godliness / the rest no doubt had in great reverence / and gave great honor unto.

And whereas it is said for the preservation of unity / one must be over all / S. Cyprian showeth / that the unity of the church is conserved / not by having one bishop over all. But by the agreement of the bishops / one with another. For so he writeth that the church is knit and coupled together (as it were with the glew) of the bishops consenting one with another / and as for the compounding of controversies / it is manifest / that it was not done by one bishop in a province / but those bishops which were near the place where the schism or heresy sprang.

For / speaking of the appeasing of controversies / and schisms / and showing how divers bishops were drawn into the heresy of Novatus / he saith / that the virtue and strength of the Christians was not so decayed or languished / but that there was a portion of priests / which did not give place unto those ruins / and shipwrackes of faith.

And in another place he saith: therefore most dear brother / the plentiful body or company of y ^e priests / are as it were with the glew of mutual concord & bande of unity joined together / that if any of our company be author of an heresy / and go about to destroy and rent the flock of Christ / the rest should help / and as profitable & merciful shepherds / gather together the sheep of the Lord: whereby it is manifest / that the appeasing & composing of controversies / & heresies was not then thought to be most fit to be in one bishops hand / but in as many as could conveniently assemble together / according to the danger of the heresy which sprang / or deep root which it had taken / or was like to take. And that there was in his time no such authority given / as that any one might remove the causes or controversies which rose / as now we see there is / when the bishop of the diocese / taketh the matters in controversy / which rise in any church within his diocese / from the minister and elders / to whom the decision pertaineth / and as when the archbishop taketh it away from the bishop / it may appear in y ^e same third Epistle of the first book / where he saith after this sort. It is ordained / & it is equal and right / that every man's cause should be there heard / where the fault was committed. And a little after he saith: It is meet to handle the matter there / where they may have both accusers / and witnesses of the fault / which although it be spoken of them / which fied out of Affrike unto Rome / yet the reason is general / and doth as well serve against these Ecclesiastical persons / which will take unto them the decyding of those controversies that were done a hundredth mile of them.

And whereas M. Doctor in both places of Cyprian / seemeth to stand much upon the words (One Bishop and priest) the reason thereof doth appear in another place of Cyprian / most manifestly / and that it maketh no more to prove that there ought to be one archbishop over a hole province / then to say / that there ought to be but one husband proveth / that therefore there should be but one husband in every country or province / which should see that all the rest of the husbands / do their duties to their wives. For this was the case. A Nouatian heretic being condemned / and cast out of the churches of Africa / by the consent of the bishops / & not able by embassage sent to them to obtain to be received to their communion and fellowship again / goeth afterwards to Rome / and being likewise there repelled / in time getteth him self by certain which favored his heresy / to be chosen bishop there at Rome (Cornelius being the bishop or pastor of those which were there godly minded) whereupon it cometh / that Cyprian urgeth (one bishop / one priest in the church) because at Rome there was two / whereof one was a wolf / which ought not to have been there / considering there was but one church / which was gathered under the government of Cornelius. And therefore by that place of Cyprian it cannot be gathered / that there ought to be but one bishop in one city / if the multitude of professors require more / and that all cannot well gather them selves together in one congregation / to be taught of one man / much less can it serve to prove / that there should be but one in a whole diocese or province. I grant that in later times / and which went more from the simplicity of the primitive church / they took occasion of these words to decree / that there should be but one bishop in a city / but that can never be concluded of Cyprians words / if it be understanded why he urgeth one bishop and one priest. If therefore neither word (bishop nor priest) do make anything to prove an archbishop / nor this word (church) doth imply any province / nor in these words (one bishop one priest) there is nothing less meant / then that there should be one archbishop over all the bishops and clergy in a province / and if Cyprian will neither allow of the title of archbishop / nor of the authority and office / but in plain words speaketh against both / we may conclude / that M. Doctor hath done very unadvisedly / to lay so great weight of the archbishop upon S. Cyprians shoulders / that w • ilnot only not bear anything of him / but which hath done all that could be / to make him go a foot / and hand in hand with his fellows. There are other reasons which M. Doctor useth / as this / a notable one. S. Cyprian speaketh not of the usurped power of the bishop of Rome / therefore he speaketh of the office of an archbishop and metropolitan. It is hard to call this argument to any head of fallation / for it hath not so much as a color of a reason / & I think it can deceive nobody but yourself. An other reason is / that all the godlyest & best learned mē do expound the place of Cyprian in the 3. Epist. of the first book of an archbishop. The vanity of this saying / that the godly & learned writers so expound it / I have shown before / and here it cometh to be considered again. I will not say that no godly nor learned writer / expoundeth the place of Cyprian of the authority of an archbishop.

But first I desire M. Doctor to set down but one / and then I will leave it to thy consideration (gentle reader) to think / whether M. Doctor hath red any learned or godly man's exposition to be such / when he hath not red those which are nearest him / I mean our own countrymen. I say he hath not red them / because I would think charitably so of him / rather then that he should have red them / and yet speak untruly of them / and father those things of them / which they never speak.

M. Jewel the bishop of Sarisburie expounded this place / and yet did never expound it / of the office and authority of an archbishop of all the bishops / and clergy of the province / but clean contrariwise applieth it to the authority that every bishop had in his diocese / his words are these: Now therefore to draw that thing by violence to one only bishop / that is generally spoken of all bishops / is a guileful fetch to misseleade the reader / and no simple nor plain dealing. Here you see that M. Jewel doth not understand this of any archbishop / but of every bishop.

M. Nowel Dean of Poules / having occasion to speak of this place / saith on this sort. So that when he speaketh (meaning Cyprian) of one bishop / one judge in the church / for the time / or of the bishop which is one / and ruleth the church absolutely / he meaneth every bishop in his own diocese without exception. If he speak specially / he meaneth the bishop of the city or diocese whereof he entreateth / whether it be the bishop of Rome / Carthage / or any other place.

M. Fore also expoundeth this of every bishop within his own church or diocese. You hear the judgment of these three writers / that cannot pick out neither the name / nor the office of an archbishop out of Cyprians place / and yet I think you will not deny / but these were learned and godly writers. Now I have shown you three / I ask once again of you one godly and learned writer / that expoundeth it as you do. And by this time I suppose all men understand / what a small friend S. Cyprian is / either to the name or office of an archbishop. Let us hear whether Jerome make anymore for the archbishop / then did Cyprian.

The Hebrews do derive the name of time of a verb / which signifieth to corrupt / because in deed it doth corrupt all / and as the times are / so are mē which live in them / that even very good men carry the note of the infection of the times / wherein they live / and the stream of the corruption thereof / being so vehement and forcible / doth not only drive before it / light things / but it cateth also and weareth the very hard and stony rocks / and therefore there is not to be looked for / such sincerity at Jerome his hand / which we found in S. Cyprian / considering that he lived some ages after Cyprian / what time Satan had a great deal more darkened the clear light of the son of the gospel / then it was in S. Cyprians time. For as those that came nearest unto the apostles times / because they were nearest the light ▪ did see best / so those that were further of from these lights / had / until the time of the manifestation of the son of perdition their heavens more dark and cloudy / and consequently did see more dimly / which is diligently to be observed of the reader / both the better to understand the state of this question / and all other controversies which lie between us and the papists.

And although Jerome besides his other faults / might have also in this matter spoken more soundly / yet we shall easily perceive / that he is a great deal further / from either the title or office of an archbishop / or else from the authority that a bishop hath with us / then he is from the simplicity of the ministry which ought to be / and is commended unto us by the word of God.

And here I must put M. Doctor in remembrance / howe unfitly he hath dedicated his boke unto the church / which hath so patched it / and peeced it of a number of shreds of the doctors / that a sentence of the scripture / either truly or falsely alleged / is as it were a Phenix in this boke. If he would have had the church believe him / he ought to have settled their judgment / and grounded their faith upon the scriptures / which are the only foundations whereupon the church may build. Now he doth not only not give them ground to stand of / but he leadeth them into ways which they cannot follow / nor come after him. For / except it be those which are learned / and besides / have the means and abilitye / to have the books which are here cited (which are the least and smallest portion of the church) how can they know that these things be true which are alleged / and as I have said / if they could know / yet have they nothing to stay them selves upon / and quiet their conscience / in allowing that which M. Doctor would so fain have them like of. Therefore he might have much more fitly dedicated his book unto the learned and riche / which have furnished libraries.

Jerome saith / that at the first / a bishop and an Elder (which you call priest) were all one / but afterward through factions / & schisms / it was decreed / that one should rule over the rest. Now I say against this order (that the bishop should bear rule over all) that which our savior Christ saith unto the Pharisees / from the beginning it was not so / and therefore I require that the first order may stand / which was / that a bishop & elder were all one. And if you place so great authority against the institution of God in a mortal man: hear what Tertullian saith unto you.

That is true / whatsoever is first: and that is false / whatsoever is later.

Jerome and you / confess that this was first / that the bishop was all one with the elder / and first also by the word of God / then I conclude that that is true. You both do likewise confess that it came after that one bare rule over the rest / then I conclude that that is false / for all that is false that is later. Furthermore Jerome in the same place of Titus saith after this sort. As the elders know them selves to be subject by a custom of the church unto him that is set over them: so the bishops must know that they are greater then the elders / rather by custom then by any truth of the institution of the Lord / and so they ought to govern the church in common.

Now / seeing that Jerome confesseth that a bishop and an elder / by God his institution are all one / and that custom of the church hath altered this institution / for the taking away of this custom and restoring of the Lord's institution / I say as our savior Christ said / why do you break the commandments of God / to establish your own traditions? for the one is the institution of God / and the other the tradition of the church / and if a man's testimony be so much with M. Doctor / let him hear what the same Tertullian faith: whatsoever savoreth against the truth / shall be accounted heresy / even although it be an old custom. Now I will turn M. Doctors own argument upon his head / after this sort. In the apostles times there were schisms and heresies / but in their times there were no archbishops ordained to appease them / therefore the best means of composing of controversies / and keeping concord / is not by having an archbishop to be over a whole province. That there was none in the apostles times / thus it may appear. If there were any / they were either ordained by the apostles and their authority / or else without / and besides their authority. If there were any without / and besides their authority / then they are therefore to be condemned the more / because in their times they starte up without their warrant. And if the apostles did ordain them / there was some use of them to that whereunto they were ordained / but there was no use of them / to that whereunto they were ordained / therefore the apostles did not ordain them. The use whereunto M. Doctor saith they were ordained / was to compose controversies / and end schisms / but to this they were not used / whereupon it followeth / that if there were any / they were unprofitable. That they were not used to any such ende / it shall be perceived by that which followeth.

At Antioch there rose a great and dangerous heresy / that had in a manner infected all the churches / which shaked the very foundation of the salvation of God's children / that was / whether faith were sufficient to justify without circumcision. The matter was disputed of both sides / it could not be agreed of. What do they now? Do they ordain some Archbishop / Archprophet / Archapostle / or any one chief to whom they will refer the controversy / or upon whom they will depend? nothing less. And if they would have had the controtrouersies ended by one / what divine was there ever / or shall there be more fitter for that purpose then S. Paul / which was amongst them? Why do they send abroad for remedy / when they had it at home? why with great charges and long journeys / which they might have had without charges / or one foot set out of the door? what do they then? They send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem / as if the lesser towns / should send to the churches of the universities / and of London / to desire their help in the determining of the controversy. And what is Paul and Barnabas ambassage / is it to desire the judgment or mind of someone? it must needs be answered with S. Luke / that they came to know the resolution of the church / and yet there were the apostles / whereof everyone was better able both sharply to see / and to judge incorruptly without affection / then any archbishop that ever was. If therefore in so great abundance & overflowing of the gifts of God / and in that time when as controversies might have been referred without danger of error unto one only / this ministry of one above all / was not thought good: now / when the gifts are les / and the danger of error more / to make an archbishop for the deciding of controversies / and avoiding of schisms / is a thing so strange / that I am not able to see the reason of it. For to which so ever of the apostles the controversy had been referred / it is certain that he would have given a true sentence of it.

And if any can show me one man in these times / of whom we may be assured / that he will pronounce the truth of every question which shall arise / he shall make me somewhat more favorable to the archbishop / then presently I am. For although there were found one such as could not err / yet I could not consent that the matter should lie only upon his hand / seeing that the apostles which could not err in these matters / would not take that upon them / and seeing that by that means the judgment of the church should be contemned / and further / for that the judgment of one man in a controversy / is not so strong to pull up errors that are rooted in men's minds / as the judgment and consent of many. For / that the judgment of many is very apt either to confirm a truth / or to confute falsehood / it is evident that S. Paul doth hold forth / as it were a buckler against the frowardness of certain / the authority of the church.

Furthermore / if this distinction came up in the apostles time / and by them / how cometh it to pas / that they never mention it / nay / how cometh it to pas that even S. Paul in that very Epistle where these voices are found (I hold of Paul / I of Apollo / I of Cephas which are said to be the cause of the archbishop / ) ordaineth a clean contrary to this that M. Doctor commendeth? For when two or three prophets have expounded the scriptures / he appointeth that all the rest that are there / should judge whether they have done well or no.

And how cometh it to pas that S. Paul being at Rome in prison / and looking every day when he should give up his last breath / commended unto the church a perfect and an absolute ministry / standing of .v. parts / wherein he maketh mention / not one word of an archbishop: and saith further / that that ministry is able to entertain the perfect unity / and knitting together of the church? Do not all these things speak / or rather cry / that there was not so much as a step of an archbishop / in the apostles times? And if you will say / that the apostles did ordain archbishops (as you have in deed said / & do now again) when as there is not one word in the writings of them / I pray you tell us / how we shall hold out of the church / the unwritten verities of the papists? for my part / if it be true that you say / I cannot tell what to answer unto them. For our answer is to thē / the apostles have left a perfect rule of ordering the church written / and therefore we reject their traditions / if / for no other cause / yet because they are superfluous / and more then need. Now this degree of archbishop / being not only not mentioned in the scriptures / but also manifestly oppugned / it is too bold and hardy a speech (that I say no more) to fetch the petegree of the archbishop / from the apostles times / and from the apostles them selves. But all this time M. Doctor hath forgotten his question / which was to prove an archbishop / whereas all these testimonies which he alledgeth / make mention only of a bishop / and therefore this may rather confirm the state of the bishop in this realm / thē the archbishop. But in the answer unto them it shall appear / that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an archbishop mentioned / so except only the name of a bishop / there shall be found very little agreement between the bishops in those days / and those which are called bishops in our time / & with us.

And consequently / although M. doctor thought with one whiting box / to have whited two walls (by establishing our archbishop and bishop by the same testimonies of the fathers) yet it shall be plain / that in going about to defend both / he left both vndefended. Let us therefore come first / to examine Jerome's reasons / why one must be over the rest / for in the testimony of men / that is only to be regarded / which is spoken either with some authority of the scripture / or with some reason grounded of the scripture: otherwise / if he speak without either scripture or reason / he is as easily rejected as alleged. One (saith he) being chosen to be over the rest / bringeth remedy unto schisms: how so? least every man (saith he) drawing to him self / to break the church in pieces.

But I would ask if the church be not in as great danger / when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man / and when one carrieth all into error / as when one pulleth one piece with him / another another piece / and the third his partalso with him. And it is harder to draw many into an error / then one / or that many should be carried away by their affections / then one / which is evident in water / which if it be but a little / it is quickly troubled and corrupted / but being much / it is not so easily. But by this ecclesiastical Monarchy / all things are kept in peace: Nay / rather it hath been the cause of discord / and well spring of most horrible schism / as it is to be seen in the very decretals them selves. And admit it were so / yet the peace which is without truth / is more execrable thē a thousand contentions. For / as by striking of two flintes together / there cometh out fire / so it may be / that sometimes by contention / the truth which is hidden in a dark peace / may come to light / which by a peace in naughtiness and wickedness / being as it were buried under the ground / doth not appear.

If therefore superiority & domination of one above the rest / have such force to keep men from schisms / when they be in the truth / it hath as great force to keep them together in error / and so besides that one is easier to be corrupted then many / this power of one bringeth as great incommodity in keeping them in error if they fall into it / as in the truth if they are in it. Moreover / if it be necessary for the keeping of unity in the church of England / that one archbishop should be primate over all / why is it not as meet / that for the keeping of the whole universal church / there should be one archbishop / or bishop over all / and the like necessity of the bishop over all Christendom / as of the bishop of all England / unless peradventure it be more necessary / that there should be one bishop over the universal church / then over the church of England / for as much as it is more necessary that peace should be kept / and schisms be avoided in the vniuersali church / then in the particular church of England.

If you say that the archbishop of England / hath his authority granted of the Prince / the Pope of Rome will say that Constantine or Phocas / which was Emperor of all Christendom / did grant him his authority over all churches. But you will say that it is a lie / but the Pope will set as good a face / and make as great a show therein / as you do in diverse points here. But admit it to be a lie (as in deed it is touching Constantine) yet I say further / that it may come to pass / & it hath ben / that there may be one Christian Caesar over all the realms which have churches. What if he then will give that authority to one over all / that one king granteth in his land / may any man accept and take at his hand such authority? and if it be not lawful for him to take that authority / tell me what fault you can find in him / which may not be found in them?

It will be said that no one is able to do the office of a bishop / unto all the whole church / neither is there any one able to do the office of a bishop to y ^e whole church of England. For when those which have ben most excellent in knowledge and wisdom / and most ready and quick / in doing and dispatching / matters / being always present / have found enough to do to rule and govern one several congregation: what is he which (absent) is able to discharge his duty toward so many thousand churches? And if you take exception / that although they be absent / yet they may do by under ministers / as by Archdeacons / Chauncellors / Officials / Commissaries / and such other kind of people / what do you else say / then the Pope / which saith / that by his Cardinals / and archbyshoppes / and Legates / and other such like / he doeth all things? For with their hands he ruleth all / and by their feet he is present everywhere / and with their eyes he seeth what is done in all places. Let them take heed therefore / least if they have a common defense with the Pope / that they be not also joined nearer with him in the cause / then peradventure they be aware of. Truly it is against my will / that I am constrained to make such comparisons / not that I think there is so great diversity between the Popedom and the archbyshoppricke / but because there being great resemblance between them / I mean / having regard to the bare functions / without respecting the doctrine good or bad which they uphold / that I say there being great resemblance between them: there is yet as I am persuaded / great difference between the parsons that execute them. The which good opinion conceived of them / I we moste humbly beseech them by the glory of God / by the liberty of the church purchased by the precious blood of our savior Christ / and by their own salvation / that they would not deceive / by retaining so hard / such excessive and unjust dominion over the church of the living God.

But Jerome saith / that this distinction of a bishop / & a minister or elder / was from s. Mark his time / unto Dyonisius time / whereby M. doctor would make us believe / that Mark was the author of this distinction. But that cannot be gathered by Jerome's words. For besides that things being ordered then by the suffrages of the ministers and elders / it might (as it falleth out of tētimes) be done without the approbation of s. Mark: the words (from Mark) may be rather taken exclusiuely / to shut out S. Mark / and the time wherein he lived / then inclusively / to shut him in the time wherein this distinction rose.

How so ever it be / it is certain that S. Mark did not distinguish & make those things diverse / which the holy ghost made all one. For then (which the Lord forbid) he should make the story of the gospel which he wrote / suspected.

Again / it is to be observed that Jerome saith it was so in Alexandria: signifying thereby / that in other churches it was not so. And in deed it may appear in diverse places of the ancient fathers / that they confounded priest & bishop / & toke them for all one / as Eusebius out of Irenaeus calleth Anicete / Pius / Telesphorus / Higinus / xystus / presbyterous cai prostantas, elders / and presidents. Cyprian confoundeth priest and bishop in the epistles before recited / so doth Ambrose in the place alleged before by M. doctor / and yet it is one thing with us / to be a priest (as M. doctor speaketh) and another thing to be a bishop.

Jerusalem was a famous church / so was Rome as the apostle witnesseth / so was Antioch and others / where also were great contētions / both in doctrine and otherwise / and yet for avoiding of contention and schism there / there was no one that was ruler of the rest / therefore we ought rather to follow these churches being many / in keeping us to the institution of the apostles / then Alexandria being but one church / and departing from that institution / and if there had been any one set over all the rest in other places / it would have made much for the distinction that Jerome had recited. But against this distinction of s. Jerome / I will use no other reason / thē that which Jerome useth in the same epistle to Euagrius. Jerome in that epistle / taketh up very sharply the archd. that he preferred him self before the elder / & the reason is / because by the scripture y ^e deacon is inferior unto the elder. Now therefore Jerome him self confessing that by the scripture a bishop & an elder are equal / by Jerome's own reason / the bishop is to be sharply reprehended / because he lifteth him self above the elder. But what helpeth it you / that there was a bishop of Alexandria / which urge an archbishop / or what auauntageth it you / that there was one chief called a bishop in every several congregation / which would prove that there ought to be one bishop / chief over a thousand congregations. What could have been brought more strong to pull down the archbishop out of his throne / then that which Jerome saith there / when he affirmeth that y ^e bishop of the obscurest village or hamlet / hath as great authority and dignity as the bishop of Rome? Erasmus did see this / and said / eironeuomenos, that is iestingly / that Jerome spake that of the bishops of his times / but if he had seen how the metropolitans of our age excel other bishops / he would have spoken otherwise. And what could have been more fit to have confuted the large dominion and superiority of our realm / then that that Jerome saith / when he appointeth the bishops sea in an uplandish town / or in a pore village or hamlet / declaring thereby that in every town there was a bishop / and that the bishop that he speaketh of / differeth nothing at all from an elder / but that the bishop had the ordaining of the ministers / whereupon it doth appear (which I promised to show) that by this place of Jerome / there is neither name of archbishop / nor so much as the shadow of his authority / and that the bishops which are now / have besides the name / no similitude almost with the bishops that were in Jerome's time / as for his reason / ad Luciferanos, it is the same which he hath / ad Euag. and to Titus / and is already answered.

What is that to the purpose / that Chrysostom saith / there must be degrees? who denieth that there are degrees of functions? we confess there is / and ought to be a degree of pastors / another of doctors / the third of those which are called elders / the fourth of deacons. And where he saith / there should be one degree of bishop / another of a minister / another of the lay man / what proveth that for the office of an archbishop / which is your purpose to show? how often times must you be called ad Rhombum? And that he meaneth nothingles / then to make any such difference between a bishop and a minister / as is with us / which you would fain make your reader believe / I will send you to Chrysostom / upon the third chapter. 1. ep. to Timothy / where he saith: The office of a bishop differeth little or nothing from an elders / and a little after / that a bishop differeth nothing from an elder or minister / but by the ordination only. Still M. doctor goeth forward in killing a dead man / that is / in confuting that / which all men condemn / and proving that which no man denieth / that there must be superiority amongst men / and that equality of all men a like / confoundeth all / and overthroweth all.

Thys is a notable argument / there must be some superior among men: ergo, one minister must be superior to another. Again / there must be in the ecclesiastical fūctions / some degrees: Ergo, there must be an archbishop over the whole province / or a bishop over the whole diocese. And all be it M. doctor taketh great pain to prove that which no man denieth / yet he doth it so evil fauoredly / and so unfitly / as that if a man had no better proofs then he bringeth / the degrees of the ecclesiastical functions / might fall to the ground. For here to prove the degrees of the ecclesiastical functions / he bringeth in that / that Chrysostom saith / there must be magistrate and subject / him that commandeth / and him that obeyeth.

The most therefore that he can conclude of this / for the ministry / is / that there must be minister that shall rule / and people that shall be obedient / and hereby he cannot prove that there should be any degrees amongst the ministers / and ecclesiastical governors / unless he will say peradventure / that as there are under Magistrates / and a king above them all / so there should be under ministers / and one minister above them all. But he must remember that it is not necessary in a common wealth / that there should be one over all / for that there are other good common wealths / wherein many have like power and authority. And further / if because there is one king in a lande above all / he will conclude there should be one archbishop over all: I say / as I have said / that it is not against any word of God which I know (although it be inconvenient) but that there may be one Caesar over all the world / and yet I think M. Doctor will not say / that there may be one archbishop over all the world.

Now M. Doctor cometh to his old hole / where he would fain hyde him self / and with him all the ambition / tyranny / and excess of authority / which is joined with these functions of archbishop / and bishop / as they are now used: and this his hole is / that all the ministers are equal with bishops / and archbishops / as touching the ministry of the word and sacraments / but not as touching policy and government. The papists use the very self same distinction / for the maintenance of the Popes tyranny and ambytion / and other their hierarchy.

Master Doctor hath put out the mark / and concealed the name of the papists / and so with a little change of words / as it were with certain new colors / he would deceive us. For the papists say / that every syr John or hedge priest / hath as great authority to sacrifice and offer for the quick and the dead / and to minister the sacraments as the Pope of Rome hath / but for government / and for order / the bishop is above a priest / the archbishop above a bishop / and the Pope above them all. But I have declared before out of the scriptures / how vain a distinction it is / and it appeareth out of Cyprian / that as all the bishops were equal one to another / so he saith / that to everyone was given a portion of the Lord's flock / not only to feed with the word and sacraments / but to rule and govern / not as they which shall make any accoumpte unto an archbishop / or be judged of him / but as they which cannot be judged of any / but of God. And Jerome upon Titus saith / that the elder or minister did govern and rule in common with the bishops / the church whereof he was elder or minister.

After followeth M. Calvin / a great patron forsooth / of the archbishop / or of this kind of bishop which is used amongst us here in England. And here to pass over your strange cytations and quotations which you make / to put your answerer to pain / sending him sometimes to Musculus common places for one sentence / to Augustine's works / to Chrysostom's works / to Cyril / to Master Fox / and here sending him to the viii. chapter of the institutions / as though you had never red Calvin's institutions / but took the sentence of somebody else / without any examination / whereby it seemeth that you were loath that ever any man should answer your book / letting I say all this pass / what maketh this either to prove that there should be one archbishop over all the ministers in the province / or one bishop over all in the diocese / that amongst twelve / that were gathered together into one place / there was one which ruled the action / for which they met? And that it may appear what superiority it is / which is lawful amongst the ministers / and what it is that M. Calvin speaketh of / what also the fathers and councils do mean / when they give more to the bishop of any one church / then to the elder of the same church / and that no man be deceived by the name of gouernoure or ruler over the rest / to fancy any such authority and domination or Lordship / as we see used in our church / it is to be understanded / that amongst the pastors / elders and deacons of every particular church / and in the meetings and companies of the ministers or elders of divers churches / there was one chosen by the voices and suffrages of them all / or the most part / which did propound the matters that were to be handled / whether they were difficulties to be soluted / or punishments and censures to be decreed upon those which had faulted / or whether there were elections to be made / or what other matter so ever occasion was given to entreat of / the which also gathered the voices and reasons of those which had interest to speak in such cases / which also did pronounce according to the number of the voices which were given / which was also the mouth of the rest / to admonish / or to comfort / or to rebuke sharply / such as were to receive admonishment consolation / or rebuke / and which in a word did moderate that whole action / which was done for the time they were assembled: which thing we do not deny / may be / but affirm that it is fit & necessary to be / to the avoiding of confusion. For it were an absurd hearing that many should at once attempt to speak / neither could it be done without great reproach / that many men beginning to speak / some should be bidden to hold their peace / which would come to pass / if there should be no order kept / nor none to appoint / when everyone should speak or not / to put them to silence / when they attempted confusedly to speak / and out of order. Moreover when many ministers mete together / and in so great dyuersitie of gifts as the Lord hath given to his church / there be found that excel in memory / facility of tongue / and expedition or quickness to dispatche matters more then the rest / and therefore it is fit / that the brethren that have that dexterity / should especially be preferred unto this office / that the action may be the better / and more speedily made an ende of.

And if any man will call this a rule or presidentship / and him that executeth this office a president or moderator / or a governor / we will not strive / so that it be with these cautions / that he be not called simply governor or moderator / but governor or moderator of that action / and for that time / and subject to the orders that others be / & to be censured by the company of the brethren / as well as others / if he be judged any way faulty. And that after that action ended / & meeting dissolved / he sit him down in his old place / and set him self in equal estate with the rest of the ministers. Thirdly / that this government or presidentship / or what so ever like name you will give it / be not so tied unto that minister / but that at the next meeting it shall be lawful to take another / if another be thought meeter. Of this order and policy of the church / if we will see a lively image and perfect pattern / let us set before our eyes / the most ancient and gospel like church that ever was or shall be.

In the acts / the church being gathered together for the election of an Apostle into the place of Judas the traitor / when as the interest of election belonged unto all / and to the apostles especially above the rest / out of the whole company Peter riseth up / telleth the cause of their coming together / with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another / conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election / and his direction is begged / and no doubt executed the residue of the things which pertained unto the whole action.

In the seconde of the acts / all the Apostles are accused of drunkenness / Peter answereth for thē all / wipeth away the infamy they were charged with. But you will say / where are the voices of the rest / which did choose Peter unto this. First / you must know that the scripture setteth not down every circumstance / & then surely you do Peter great injury / that ask whether he were chosen unto it. For is it to be thought / that Peter would thrust in him self to this office or dignity without the consent and allowance of his fellows / and prevent his fellows of this preeminence? undoubtedly / if it had not been done arrogantly / yet it must needs have a great show of arrogancye / if he had done this without the consent of his fellows. And here you shall hear what the Scholiast saith / which gathereth the judgment of Greke divines hora (speaking of Peter) panta meta koines auton gnomes poiounta. Behold / how he doth all with their common consent. And if any man hereupon will say / that Peter exercised domination over the rest / or gate any archapostleship / beside that y ^e whole story of the acts of the apostles / and his whole course of life doth refute that: the same Scholiast which I made mention of in the same place / saith he did nothing / archikos, imperiously / nothing meta exousias, with dominion or power. Further / I will admonish him to take heed / least if he strive so sore for the archbishop / he slide or ever he be aware into the tents of the papists / which use these places to prove that Peter had authority and rule over the rest of the apostles.

And that it may be understanded / that this moderate rule / void of all pomp and outward show / was not perpetual / nor always tied unto one man (which were the last points of the cautions I put before) turn unto the 15. of the Acts / where is shown / how with the rest of the church / the apostles / and amongst them Peter being assembled to decide a great controversy / James the Apostle / and not Peter / moderated and governed the whole action / when as after other had said their judgments / and namely Paul and Barnabas / & Peter / he in the ende / in the name of all / pronounced the sentence / and that whereof the rest agreed / and had disputed unto / and the residue rested in that judgment / the which also may likewise appear in the 21. of the Acts. This is he which is called the bishop in every church / this is he also whom Justin whereof mention is made afterwards / calleth proestos. And finally / this is that great archbishoppricke / and great bishoppricke that M. Doctor so often stumbleth on. This order and preeminence / the Apostles time / and those that were near them kept / and the nearer they came to the apostles times / the nearer they kept them to this order / and the farther of they were from those times / until the discovering of the son of perdition / the further of were they from this moderation / and nearer to that tyranny and ambitious power / which oppressed and ouerlayde the church of God.

And therefore master Calvin doth warely say / that one amongst the apostles indefinitely / not any one singular person (as Peter) had the moderation and rule of the other / and further shadoweth out what rule that was / by the example of the consul of Rome / whose authority was / to gather the senate together / & to tell of the matters which were to be handled / to gather y ^e voices / to pronounce the sentence. And although the Antichrist of Rome had perverted all good order / and taken all liberty of the church into his / the Cardinals / Archbishops / and Bishops hands / yet there are some cold and light footinges of it in our synodes / which are holden with the parliament / where amongst all the ministers which are assembled out of all the whole realm / by the more part of voices / one to chosen which should go before the rest / propound the causes / gather the voices / and be as it were the mouth of the whole company / whom they term the prolocutor. Suche great force hath the truth / that in the utter ruins of Popery / it could never be so pulled up by the roots that a man could never know the place thereof no more / or that it should not leave such marks and printes behind it / whereby it might afterwards recover it self / and come again to the knowledge of men.

Now you see what authority we allow amongst the ministers / both in their several churches / or in provincial sinodes / or national / or general / or what so ever other meetings shall be advised of for the profit and edifying of the church / and withal you see / that as we are far from this tyranny and excessive power which now is in the church / so we are (by the grace of God) as far from confusion and disorder / wherein you travel so much to make us to seem guilty.

M. Doctor reasoneth again / that Paul an Apostle / and in the highest degree of ministry / was superior to Timothy and Titus Evangelists / and so in a lower degree of ministry / therefore one minister is superior to another / one bishop to another bishop / which are all one office / and one function. As if I should say my Lord Mayor of London is above the sherifes / therefore one sherife is superior to another. Again / another argument he hath of the same strength. Titus being an Evangelist / was superior to all the pastors in Crete / which was a degree under the Evangelists / therefore one pastor must be superior unto another pastor. And that he was superior / he proveth because he had authority to ordain pastors / so that the print of the archbishop is so deeply set in his head / that hereof he can imagine nothing / but that Titus should be archbishop of all Crete.

I have shown before / how these words are to be taken of S. Paul: and for so much as M. Doctor burdeneth us with the authority of Calvin so often / I will send him to Calvin's own interpretation upon this place / where he showeth y ^e Titus did not ordain by his own authority / for s. Paul would not grant Titus leave to do that / which he himself would not / and showeth that to say that Titus should make the election of pastors by him self / is to give unto him a princely authority / and to take away the election from the church / and the judgment of the insufficiency of the minister from the company of the pastors / which were (saith he) to profane the whole government of the church.

I marvel therefore what M. doctor meaneth to be so busy with M. Calvin / and to seek confirmation of his archbishop and bishop at him / which would have shaken at the naming of the one / and trembled at the office of the other / unless it be because he would fain have his plaster where he received his wound / but I dare assure him / that in his garden / he shall never find the herb that will heal him. And because that the scriptures when they make for our cause / receive this answer commonly / that they served but for the apostles times / and M. Calvin's authority will wey nothing as I think with M. Doctor / when he is alleged by us against him / I will send him to the Greke Scholiaste / which upon this place of Titus saith after this sort. He would not (speaking of s. Paul) have the whole I will of Crete / ministered and governed by one / but that everyone should have his proper charge and care / for so should Titus have a lighter labor / and the people that are governed / should enjoy greater attendance of the pastor / whilst he that teacheth them / doth not run about the government of many congregations / but attendeth unto one / and garnisheth that.

Now M. Doctor may see by this / that Titus (by the judgment of the Scholiaste) was not as he fancieth / the archbishop of all Crete / but that he had one flock / whereupon (for the time he was there) he attended. And that where it is said he ordained ministers / it is nothing else / but that he was the chief and the moderator in the election of the ministers / as I have declared before by many examples. And it is no marvel / although the rest granted him this preeminence / when he had both most excellent gifts / and was a degree above the pastors / being an Evangelist.

Unto the place of Timothy / where he willeth him not to admit an accusation against an elder under two or three witnesses / I answer as I have done before to the place of Titus / that is / that as the ordination of the pastors is attributed unto Titus and Timothy / because they governed and moderated that action / and were the first in it / so also is the deposing or other censures of them / and that for as much as he writeth his epistles unto Timothy & Titus / he telleth them how they should behave them selves in their office / and doth not shut out other from this censure and judgment. And it is more agreeable to the inscription of the epistles / that he should say (admit not thou / or ordain not thou) writing unto one / then if he should say (ordain not ye / or admit not ye) as if he should write to many / for so should neither the ending agree with the beginning / nor the midst with them both. And if this be a good rule / that because Paul biddeth Timothy and Titus to judge of the faults of the pastors / and to ordain pastors / therefore none else did but they: Then whereas S. Paul biddeth Timothy that he should command & teach / that godliness is profitable to all things / & admonisheth him to be an example of the whole flock / by your reason he will have no other of y ^e ministers of Ephesus / or of the I will of Creta / to teach that doctrine / or to be examples to their flocks / & an hundredth such things in the Epistles of Timothy and Titus / which although they be there particularly directed unto Timothy / and Titus / yet do they agree / & are common to them / with all other ministers / yea sometimes unto the whole flock.

As for Epiphanius / it is known of what authority he is in this place / when as by Arius sides / he goeth about to prick at the Apostle / whilst he goeth about to confute the Apostle which maketh a distinction and difference between those which the Apostle maketh one / that is / a bishop and an elder / and to spare the credit of Epiphanius / it were better lay that opinion upon some Pseudepiphanius, that is to say counterfeit / which we may do / not without great probability / seeing Augustine saith / that the true Epiphanius uttereth all after a story fashion / and doth not use any disputation / or reasoning for the truth against the falsehood / and this Epiphanius is very full of arguments and reasons / the choice whereof M. Doctor hath taken.

And whereas M. Doctor citeth Ambrose / Calvin / and other godly writers / to prove that the minister is understanded by the word elder or presbiter, he keepeth his old wont / by bringing sticks into the wood / and proving always that which no man denieth: and yet with the minister of the word / he also understandeth the elder of the church which ruleth / and doth not labor in the word. But therein is not the matter / for I do grant that by presbiter, the minister of the word is understanded / & yet nothing proved of that which M. Doctor would so fain prove. It is no marvel although you take up the authors of the admonition for want of logic / for you utter great skill yourself in writing / which keep no order / but confound your reader in that thing / which even the common logic of the country / which is reason / might have directed you in. For what a confusion of times is this / to begin with Cyprian / and then come to Jerome and Chrysostom / and after to the scripture / and back again to Ignatius / that was before Cyprian / which times are ill disposed of you / and that in a matter wherein it stood you upon to have observed the order of the times. But as for Ignatius place it is sufficiently answered before in that which was answered to Cyprian his place / for when he saith the bishop hath rule over all / he meaneth no more all in the province / then in all the world / but meaneth that flock & congregation / whereof he is bishop or minister. And when he calleth him prince of the priests / although the title be to excessive and big / condemned by Cyprian and the council of Carthage / yet he meaneth no more the prince of all in the diocese as we take it / or of the province / then he meaneth the Prince of all the priests in the world: but those fellow ministers and elders that had the rule and government of that particular church and congregation / whereof he was bishop / as the great churches have for the most part both elders which govern only / and ministers also to aid one another / and the principality that he which they called the bishop had over the rest / hath been before at large declared.

But M. Doctor doth not remember that whilst he thus reasoneth for the authority of the bishop / he overthroweth his archbishop quite and clean / for Ignatius will have none above the bishop but Christ / and he will have an archbishop.

I see a man cannot well serve two masters / but either he must displease the one / and please the other / or by pleasing of one / offend the other. For M. Doctor would fain please / and uphold both / and yet his proofs are such / that every prop that he setteth under one / is an axe to strike at the other. But that M. D. delyteth always where he might fetch at y ^e fountain / to be raking in ditches / he needed not to have gone to Justin Martyr for Proestos, when as S. Paul calleth the ministers & Elders by this title. And if this place of Justin make for an archbishop / then instead of an archbishop in every province / we shall have one in every congregation. For Justin declareth there / the Leyturgie or manner of serving God that was in every church used of the Christians. And I pray you let it be considered / what is the office of that proestos, and see whether there be any resemblance in the world / between him and an archbishop. For he placeth his office to be in preaching / in conceiving prayers / in ministering of the sacraments. Of any commandment which he had over the rest of the ministers / or of any such privileges as the archbishop hath / he maketh not one word. It may be / that the same might have the preeminence of calling the rest together / and propounding the matter to the rest of the company / and such like as is before declared. As soon as ever you found proestos, you snatched that by and by / and went your ways / and so deceive yourself and others. But if you had red the whole treatise / you should have found that he was proestos, of the people / for thus it is written in the same Apology / Epeita prospheretai to Proestoti ton adelphon artos. Afterwarde bread is brought to the president of the brethren calling the people as S. Paul doth continually brethren. And therefore these are M. Doctors arguments out of Martyrs place. There was a minister which did stand before / or was president of the rest in every particular church and congregation / therefore there was an archbishop over all the province. And again / there was one which ruled the people in every congregation / therefore there was one that ruled all the ministers through out the whole province. And albeit things were in great purity in the days that Justin lived / in respect of the times which followed / yet as there was in other things (which appear in his works / and even in the ministration of the sacraments spoken of in that place) corruption / in that they mingled water and wine together / so even in the ministry / there began to peep out something which went from the simplicity of the gospel / as that the name of proestos, which was common to the elders with the ministers of the word / was (as it seemeth) appropriated unto one.

Another of M. Doctors reasons / for to prove the archbishop / is / that Cyril maketh mention of an high priest / whereunto I answer / that he that bringeth in a priest into the church / goeth about to bury our savior Christ / for although it might be proved that the word priest were the same with the Greeks presbyteros, yet (as shall appear in his place) is the use of this word (priest) for a minister of the gospel very dangerous. And as for him that bringeth in an high priest into the church / he goeth about to put our savior Christ out of his office / who is proved in the Epistle to the Hebrews to be the only high priest / and that there can be no more as long as the world endureth. And yet if all this were granted / you are not yet come to that which you desire to prove / that is / an archbishop. For if you look in Theodorete / you shall find this word archierosyne, which signifieth the high priesthood / to be nothing else but a byshoppricke / and in the. 7. chapter of that book / and so forth divers times / you shall have archiereus, taken for a bishop / as speaking of the council of Nice / he saith that there was. 318. archiereis, high priests. Now I think you will not say there were. 318. archbishops. If you do / you are confuted by all ecclesiastical writers that ever I red / which speaking of them / call them bishops.

Chrysostom followeth / which as M. Doctor saith / ruled not only the church of Constantinople / but the churches of Thracia / Asia / and Pontus / & he saith it out of Theodorete. But herein it may appear / that either M. Doctor hath a very evil conscience in falsifying writers / & that in the points which he in controversy / or else he hath taken his stuff of certain at the seconde hand without any examination of it at all. For here he hath set down instead of (had care of the churches in Thracia. &c.) ruled the churches / the Greke is / epoieito ten promethcian, it is translated also (prospexit) so that it appeareth he fetched it neither from Theodorite in Greek nor in Latin. And what is this to prove an archbishop / that he had care of these churches? there is no minister but ought to have care over all the churches through Christendom / and to show that care for them / in comforting or admonishing of them by writing / or by visiting them / if the necessity so require / and it be thought good by the churches / and leave obtained of the place where he is minister / upon some notable and especial cause / being some man of singular gifts / whose learning and credit may profit much to the bringing to pass of that thing / for the which he is to be sent. After this sort * S. Cyprian being in Afric / had care over Rome in Europe / and wrote unto the church there. After this sort also was * Irenaeus bishop of Lions / sent by the French churches unto the churches in Phrigia. And after this sort have M. Calvin / and M. Beza been sent from Geneva in Savoy / to the churches of France.

Now / if you will conclude hereupon / that Cyprian ruled the church of Rome / or Irenaeus the churches of Phrigia / or master Calvin / or M. Beza the churches of France / or that they were bishops or archbishops of those places / you shall but conclude as you were wont to do / but yet all men understand / that here is nothing less then an archbishop / or any such bishop / as we have and use in our church. And if so be that Chrysostom should be bishop or archbishop of all these churches which were in all Asia / Pontus / Thracia / as you would give the reader to understand / you make him bishop of more churches / then ever the Pope of Rome was / when he was in his greatest pride / and his Empire largest. For there were six presidentships in Thracia / and in Asia there were a eleven Princes / and had several regions or governments / and in Pontus as many / and if he were bishop or archbishop of all the churches within these dominions / he had need of a long spone to feed with all. It is certain therefore / that he was bishop only of the church in Constantinople / and had an eye & a care to those other churches. And that he was bishop of one city / or of one church / it may appear by that which I have before alleged out of the Greek Scholiaste upon Titus / who citeth there Chrysostom / where it is said that S. Paul did not mean to make one over the whole I will / but that everyone should have his proper congregation. &c. * And in another place he showeth the difference between the Emperor and the bishop / that the one is over the world / and the other that is the bishop / is over one city.

Touching Theodorete bishop of Cyrus / to let pas that which the bishops of Egypt cried in the council of Calcedon / that he was no bishop / it is to be observed / that which the Emperors Theodosius and Valentinian / write unto Dioscorus bishop of Alexandria / that he had commanded Theodoret bishop of Cyrus / that he should keep him self unto his own church only: whereby it appeareth / that he meddled in moe churches then was mete he should. Besides / that wanteth not suspicion y ^e he speaketh this of him self / especially when he saith / y ^e there was not in all those. 800. churches one tare / y ^e is / one hypocrite or evil mā.

Now / that it may appear what great lykelyhoode there is between this Theodoret / and our Lord bishops and archbishops / it is to be considered which he writeth of him self in the Epistle unto Leo / that is / that he having been. 26. years bishop / was known of all that dwelt in those partes / that he had never house of his own / nor field / nor halfepennie / not so much as a place to be buried in / but had willingly contented him self with a poor estate / belike he had a very lean archbyshoppricke. And if the fat morsels of our byshopprickes & archbishopprickes / were taken & employed to their uses of maintenance of the pore / & of the ministers / and of the universities / which are the seed of the ministry / I think the heat of the disputation / and contention for archbishops and bishops / would be cooled.

Now good reader thou hearest what M. Doctor hath been able to take together out of the old fathers / which he saith are so plain in this matter / and yet can show nothing to the purpose. Hear also what he saith out of the writers of our age / all which he saith (except one or two) are of his judgment / and allow well of this distinction of degrees.

Master Calvin first is cited / to prove those offices of archbishop / primate / patriarche / the names whereof he cannot abide / and as for him he approveth only / that there should be some ▪ which when difficult causes arise / which cannot be ended in the particular churches might refer the matters to sinodes and provincial councils and which might do the offices which I have spoken of before of gathering voices. &c.

But that he lyketh not of those dominations and large jurisdictions or at all of the bishops or archbishops / which we have now / it may appear plainly enough / both in that place / when as he will have his words drawn to no other then the old bishops / shutting out thereby the bishops that now are / as also in other places / and namely upon the Philippians / where (reasoning against this distinction between pastor and bishop / and showing that giving the name of bishop to one man only in a church / was the occasion why he afterward usurped domynation over the rest) he saith after this sort: In deed I grant (saith he) as the dispositions and manners of men are / order cannot stand amongst the ministers of the word / unless one be over the rest / I mean (saith he) of every several and singular body / not of a whole province / much less of the whole world.

Now if you will needs have M. Calvin's archbishop / you must not have him neither over a province nor diocese / but only over one singular and particular congregation. How much better therefore were it for you to seek some other shelter against the storm then master Calvin's / which will not suffer you by any means to cover yourself under his wings / but thrusteth you out always as soon as you enter upon him forcibly.

But here I cannot let pass M. Doctors ill dealing / which recyting so much of master Calvin / cutteth him of in the waste and leaveth quite out that which made against him / that is which master Calvin • ayth in these words: Although (saith he) in this disputation / it may not be passed over / that this office of archbishop or patriarch was most rarely and seldom used / which dealing seemeth to proceed of a very evil conscience.

Then followeth Hemingius / who you say approveth these degrees of archbishop / metropolitan / bishop / archdeacon / for so you must needs mean / when you say he approveth these degrees / or else you say nothing / for there upon is the question. Now how untruly you speak (let it be judged by that which followeth. * First he saith that our savior Christ in S. Luke distinguisheth and putteth a difference / between the office of a Prince and the office of the minister of the church / leaving dominion to the Princes / and taking it altogether from the ministers. Here you see / not only how he is against you in your exposition in the place of S. Luke / which would have it nothing else but a prohibition of ambitiō / but also how at a word / he cutteth the throat of your archbishop and bishop / as it is now used. And afterward speaking of y ^e churches of Denmark / he saith they have Christ for their head & for the outward discipline / they have magistrates to punish with the sword / & for to exercise the Ecclesiastical discipline / they have bishops / pastors / doctors / which may keep men under with the word / without using any corporal punishment. Here is no mention of archbishops / Primates metropolitans. And although he showeth that they keep the distinction between bishops and ministers / against which there hath been before spoken: yet he saith that the authority which they have / is as the authority of a father / not as the power of a master / which is far otherwise here. For the condition of many servants under their masters / is much more free then the condition of a minister under his bishop. And afterward he showeth wherein that authority or dignity of the bishop over the minister lieth / that is in exhorting of him / in chiding of him / as he doth the lay people / and yet he will have also the minister / although not with such authority / after a modest sort to do the same unto the bishop. And so he concludeth / that they retain these orders / notwithstanding the anabaptists. Now let the reader judge / whether Hemingius be truly or faithfully alleged or no / or whether Hemingius do say that they have in their church archbishops / primates / metropolitans / archdeacons / or whether the bishops in the churches of Denmark / are anything like ours. For I will omit that he speaketh there against all pomp in the ministry / all worldly superiority or highness / because I love not to write out whole pages / as M. Doctor doth out of other men's writings / to help to make up a boke.

M. doctor closeth up this matter with M. Fox / but either for fear that the place should be found that there might be answer / or for fear that M. Fox should give me the solution which hath given you the objection / he would neither quote the place of the boke / nor the boke itself / he having written diverse. You cā not speak so much good of M. Fox / which I will not willingly subscribe unto. And if it be any declaration of good will and of honor / that one beareth to another / to read that which he writeth / I think I have red more of him / then you. For I have red over his boke of Martyrs / and so I think did never you. For if you had red so diligently in M. Fox / as you have ben hasty to snatch at this place / he would have taught you the forgery of these Epistles / whereout you fetch your authorities / and would have shown you that the distinguishing of the orders of metropolitans / bishops / and other degrees / which you say sometimes had their beginnings in the apostles times / sometimes you cannot tell whē / were not in Higinus time / which was a. 180. years after Christ. I perceive you fear M. Fox is an enemy unto your archbishop and primate / & therefore it seemeth you went about to corrupt him with his praise / and to seek to draw him / if it were possible / unto the archbishop / and if not / yet at the least that he would be no enemy / if he would not / nor could not be his friend. You make me suspect that your praise is not hearty / but pretended / because you do so often & so bitterly speak against all those that will not receive the cap and surplice / and other ceremonies / whereof M. Fox declareth his great misliking. For answer unto y ^e place / because I remember it not / nor mean not to read over y ^e whole boke to seek it / I say first as I said before / that there may be something before or after / which may give the solution to this place / especially seeing M. Fox in another place / proving the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeit / he useth this reason: because the fifthe Canon of the said Epistles / solemnly entreateth of the difference between primates / metropolitans / and archbishops / which distinction (saith he) of titles and degrees / savor more of ambition thē persecution. Moreover I say / that M. Fox writing a story / doth take greater pain / and looketh more diligently to declare what is done / and in what time / and by whom / then how justly or unjustly / how conveniently or inconueniently it is done. Last of all / if anything be spoken there to the hindrance of the sincerity of the gospel / I am well assured that M. Fox / which hath travailed so much and so profitably to that end / will not have his authority or name therein to bring any prejudice. Now will I also wyne with you / and leave it to the judgment of the indifferent reader / how well out of the scriptures / councils / writers old and new / you have proved either the lawfulness at all of the names of archbishops / patriarches / archdeacons / primates / or of the lawfulness of the office of them / and of bishops which be in our times.

And for as much as I have purposed to answer in one place / that which is scattered in diverse / I will here answer half a shete of paper / which is annexed of late unto this boke put forth in the name / and under the credit of the B. of Salisbury. Wherein I will say nothing of those biting & sharp words / which are given partly in the beginning / when he calleth the propounders of the proposition which concerneth archbishops and archdeacons novices / partly in the end when he calleth them children / and the doctrine of the gospel wantonness. &c. If he had lived / for his learning and grauitye / and otherwise good deserts of the church / in defending the cause thereof against the papists / we could have easily borne it at his hands: now he is dead and laid up in peace / it were against all humanity to dygge or to break up his grave / only I will leave it to the consideration of the reader upon those things which are alleged / to judge / whether it be any wantonness or noueltye which is confirmed by so grave testimonies of the ancient word of God. Unto the place of the. 4. of the Ephesians before alleged / he answereth clean contrary to that which M. Doctor saith / that we have now neither Apostles / nor Evangelists / nor Prophets / whereupon he would conclude that that place is no perfect pattern of the ministry in the church. In deed it is true / we have not / neither is it needful that we should. It was therefore sufficient that there were once / and for a time / so that the want of those now / is no cause why the minysteries there recited / be not sufficient for the accomplyshment and full fynishing of the church / nor cause why any other minysteries should be added / besides those which are there recyted.

Afterward he saith / that neither bishop nor elder are reckoned in that place. The pastor is there reckoned up / and I have shown / that the pastor and bishop / are all one / and are but divers names to signify one thing. And as for those elders which do only govern / they are made mention of in other places / the apostles purpose being to reckon up here only / those minysteries / which are conversant in the word as I have before alleged / and therefore the bishop and elder which with government teache also are there contained.

After that / he saith there is no catechista, if there be a pastor / or as some think Doctor / there is one which both can / and ought to instruct the youth / neither doth it pertain to any other in the church / and publykely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion / then unto either the pastor or doctor / how so ever in sometimes and places / they have made a several office of it.

And where he saith that there is neither deacon nor reader mentioned / for the deacon I have answered that s. Paul speaketh there only of those functions which are occupied both in teaching and gouernyng the churches / and therefore there was no place there to speak of a deacon / and as for the reader / it is no such office in the church / which the minister may not do. And if either he have not leisure / or his strength and voice will not serve him / first to read some long time / and afterward to preach: it is an easy matter to appoint some of the elders or deacons / or some other grave man in the church to that purpose / as it hath been practiced in the churches in times past / and is in the churches reformed in our days without making any new order or office of the ministry. Where he saith / that by this reason we should have no churches / pulpits / schools / nor universities: it is first easily answered that S. Paul speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians / of all things necessary for the church / but only of all necessary ecclesiastical functions / which do both teach & govern in the church / and then I have already shown that there were both churches and pulpits.

As for schools and universities / it is sufficient commandment of them / in that it is commanded / that both the magistrates and pastors should be learned / for he that commandeth that they should be learned / commandeth those things and those means / whereby they may most conveniently come to that learning. And we have also examples of them commended unto us in the Old Testament. As in the boke of the Judges / when Deborah commendeth the university men / and those which handled the pen of the writer / that they came out to help in the battle against the enemies of God. And in the boke of Samuel / and of the Kings / where Nayothe and Bethel / Ierycho / and a place beyond Jordan / are specified places / which were schools or universities / where the scholars of the Prophets / were brought up in the fear of God / and good learning. The continuance of which schools and universities amongst the people of God / may be easily gathered of that which S. Luke writeth in the Acts / where it may appear that in Jerusalem there were certain Colleges appointed for several countrymen / so that there was one College to receive the Jews and Proselytes which came out of Silicia / another for those y ^t came out of Alexandria. &c. to study at Jerusalem. And if any man be able to show such evidence for archbishops and archdeacons / as these are for universities and schools / I will not deny but it is as lawful to have them / as these.

Furthermore / he saith that the church is not governed by names / but by offices: so is it in deed. And if the office of an archbishop or archdeacon can be shown / we will not strive for the name / but for so much as all the needful offices of the church together with their names / are mentioned in the scripture / it is truly said / that both the offices and names of archbishop and archdeacon / (being not only not contained in them / but also condemned) ought to be banished out of the church.

Last of all / he saith / that Anacletus (if there be any weight in his words) nameth an archb. I have before shown what waighte there is in his words / and I refuse not that he be weighed with the bishops own weightes / which he giveth us in the handling of the article of the supremacye / and in the. 223. and 224. pages / by the which waightes appeareth / that this Anacletus is not only light / but a plain counterfeit.

The second reason which saith that the church of God under the law / had all things needful appointed by the commandment of God / the bishop saith he knoweth not what could be concluded of it. I have shown before that there is nothing les meant / then that the church under the gospel / should have all those things that that church had / or should have nothing / which that had not: but this thereupon is concluded / that the Lord which was so careful for that / as not to omit the least / would not be so careless for this church under the gospel / as to omit the greatest.

And where he saith / that there was then which was called high priest / and was over all the rest: he did well know that the cause thereof was / because he was a figure of Christ / and did represent unto the people / the cheefetye and superioritye of our savior Christ which was to come / and that our savior Christ being come / there is now no cause why there should be any such preeminence given unto one: and further / that it is unlawful that there should be any such / unless it be lawful to have one head▪ bishop over all the church. For it is known / that that priest was the head priest over all the whole Church / which was during his time unto our savior Christ. And as for those titles / chief of the synagogue / chief of the sanctuary / chief of the house of God / I say that that maketh much against archbyshoppes and archdeacons / for when as in stead of the synagogue / and of the sanctuary / and of the house of God or Temple / are come particular churches and congregations / by this reason it followeth / that there should be some chief / not in every province or diocese / but in every congregation: and in deed so ought there to be certain chief in every congregation / which should govern and rule the rest. And as for the chief of the families of the Levites / and chief of the families of the priests / the same was observed in all other tribes of Israel as a civil thing. And by all these princes over every tribe and family / as by the Prince of the whole land / God did / as it were by diverse lively pictures unprint in their understanding / the cheefety and domination of our savior Christ. Moreover these orders and policies touching the distribution of the offices of the Levites and priests / and touching the appointment of their governors / were done of David by the advise of the prophets / Gad & Nathan / which received of the Lord by commandment / that which they deluiered to David. And if so be that it can be shown / that archbishops and archdeacons / came into the church by any commandment of the Lord / then this allegation hath some force / but now being not only not commanded / but also (as I have shown) forbid̄ / every man doth see that this reason hath no place / but serveth to the utter overthrow of the archbishop and archdeacon. For if David being such a notable personage / and as it were an angel of God / durst not take upon him to bring into the church any orders or policies / not only not against the word of God / but not without a precise word and commandment of God / who shall dare to be so bold / as to take upon him the institution of the chief office of the church / and to alter the policy that God hath established by his servants the apostles?

And where the bishop saith / it is known and confessed / that there wanted many things to y ^e perfection of the church of the Jews: truly I do not know / nor cannot confess / that that church wanted anything to the perfection of that estate / which the Lord would have them be in / until the coming of our savior Christ: and if there were anything wanting / it was not for want of good laws and policies / (whereof the question is / ) but for want of due execution of them / which we speak not of.

For the two last reasons against the archbishop and archdeacon / although I be well acquainted with diverse / that favor this cause / yet I did never hear them before in my life: and I believe they cannot be proved to be his reasons / whose they are supposed to be / and which did set down that proposition / that the bishop confuteth. Notwithstanding / the former of these two seemeth to have a good probability / and to be grounded of that place of Logic / that showeth / that according as the subject or substance of anything is excellent / so are those things that are annexed and adjoined unto it. But because I would the simplest should understand what is said or written / I will willingly abstain from such reasons / the terms whereof are not easily perceived / but of those which be learned.

And as for the answer which the bishop maketh / that in place of apostles / prophets / the gifts of tongues / of healing / and of government / are brought in universities / schools / bishops / and archbishops: for schools and universities / I have shown / they have been always / and therefore cannot come in / to supply the room of the apostles and prophets. And whether a man consider the scholars that learn / or the scholemaisters which teach / or the orders appointed for the government of the schools / they shall be found to be rather civil then ecclesiastical: and therefore cannot come instead of any ecclesiastical ministry. If the bishop do mean that they come in place of the gift of tongues / and knowledge of the gospel that was first given miraculously / I grant it / and then it maketh nothing to this question.

As for bishops / they cannot come in place of apostles or prophets / for as much as they were when the Apostles / Evangelists / and Prophets were: and are one of those ministries / which S. Paul mentioneth in the. 4. to the Ephesians / being the same that is the pastor.

There remaineth therefore the archbishop / which if he came in place of the Prophets and apostles (as the bishop saith) howe cometh it to pas / that the bishop saith by and by out of the authority of Erasmus / that Titus was an archbishop: for at that time / there was both apostles / prophets / and Evangelists. If it be so therefore / that the archbishop must supply the want of apostles. &c. howe cometh it to pas / he waiteth not his time whilst they were dead / but cometh in / like unto one which is borne out of time / and like the untimely and hasty fruit / which is seldom or never wholesome. And for one to come into the apostles or prophets place / requireth the authority of him which ordained the apostles. &c. which is the Lord / and his institution in his word / which is that which we desire to be shown. But hereof I have spoken before at large. The necessity of Deans I do not acknowledge / and I have already spoken of them. Touching Prebendaries / I shall have occasion to speak a word hereafter. For Earls and Dukes / and such like titles of honor / they are civil / neither doth it follow / that because there may new titles or new offices be brought into the civil government / that therefore the same may be attempted in the church. For God hath left a greater liberty in instituting things in the common wealth / then in the church.

For / for so much as there be diverse common wealths / and diverse forms of common wealths / and all good / it falleth out / that the offices and dignities which are good in one common wealth / are not good in another / as those which are good in a Monarchy / are not good in Aristocratie / and those which are good in Aristocratie / are not good in a populare state. But that cannot be said of the church / which is but one and uniform / and hath the same laws and form of government throughout the world.

In common wealths also there are conversions / one form being changed into another / which cannot be in the true church of God. As for Erasmus authority which saith that Titus was an archbishop / I have answered to it. And whereas Chrysostom saith / that the judgment of many bishops was committed to Titus / I have declared in what sort that is to be understanded / and yet upon those words / the bishop can hardly conclude / that which he doth: that Titus had the government of many bishops. For it is one thing to say / the judgment of many was committed unto Titus / and another thing to say / that he had the government of many.

The answer of the bishop unto the fourth supposed reason / pertaineth unto another question / that is whether ecclesiastical persons / ought to exercise civil jurisdiction / whereunto I will answer by God's grace / when I come to speak upon occasion of M. Doctors boke of that question. In the mean season I will desire the reader to consider / what weak grounds the archbishop and archdeacon stand upon / seeing that the bishop of Sarum / being so learned a man / and of so great reading / could say no more in their defense / which notwithstanding in the controversies against D. Harding / is so pithy and so plentiful.

Now I have shown how little those things which M. doctor bringeth / make for proof of that wherefor he alledgeth them: I will for the better understanding of the reader / set down what were y ^e causes why the archbishops were first ordained / and what were their perogatives / and preheminēces before other bishops / and the estate also of the old bishops / which lived in those times / wherein although there were great corruptions / yet the church was in some tolerable estate / to the intent it may appear / partly how little need we have of them now / and partly also howe great difference there is between ours and them. Of the names of Metropolitan / it hath been spoken / howe that he should not be called the chief of priests / or the high priest / or bishop of bishops: now I will set down his office and power which he had / more then the bishops.

In the council of Antioch it appeareth / that the bishop of the metropolitan seat / called Synods / & propounded the matters which were to be handled. &c. the archbishop doth not now call Synods / but the Prince doth / for as much as there is no convocation without a parliament / & he doth not propound the matters / and gather the voices / but another chosen / which is called prolocutor / therefore in y ^e respect that an archb. & metropolitan was first ordained / we have no need of an archb. or metropolitan. Again / another cause also appeareth there / which was to see that the bishops kept them selves within their own dioceses / and brake not into an others diocese. But first this may be done without an archbishop / and then it is not done of the archb. (him self giving licences unto the wandering ministers to go throughout not so few as a dosen dioceses) therefore the office of an archb. is not necessary in this respect / and if it were / yet it must be other then it is now.

Again / the cause why the metropolitan differed from the rest / and why the calling of the Synod was given to him / as it appeareth in the same council / was for that the greatest concourse was to that place / and most assembly of men / whereunto also may be added / for that there was the best commodity of lodging & of vitailing / and for that / as it appeareth in other councils / it was the place and seat of the Empire. But with us neither the greatest concourse nor assembly of men / nor the greatest commodity of lodging and vitailing / neither yet the seat of the kingdom is in the metropolitan city / therefore with us there is no such cause of a metropolitan or archbishop.

In the council of Carthage / holden in Cyprians time / it appeareth that no bishop had authority over another / to compel another / or to condemn another / but every bishop was left at his own liberty to answer unto God / and to make his accompt unto Christ: and if anything were done against any bishop / it was done by the consent of all the bishops in the province / or as many as could conveniently assemble. Therefore Cyprian / which was the metropolitan bishop / had then no authority over the rest / and yet then (there being no Christian magistrate / which would punish the disorders which were committed of the Christian bishops) there was greatest need / that there should have been someone / which might have had the correction of the rest. If therefore when there was moste need of this absolute authority / there neither was / nor might be any such / it followeth that now we have a Christian magistrate / which may and ought to punish the disorders of all Ecclesiastical persons / and may and ought to call them to account for their faults / that there should be no such need of an archbishop.

The moderation of their authority in the ancient times may appear / first by a Canon which is falsely given to the apostles / being as it is like a Canon of the council of Antioch / wherein although it ordaineth one primate in every nation over the rest / and will not suffer any great matter to be done without him / as also will not suffer him to do anything without the rest / yet every B. might do that / which appertained unto his own parish / without him / and he nothing to do with him in it. But as it seemeth / the meaning of the Canon was / that if there were any weighty matter to be concluded for all the churches in the natiō / then the bishops of every parish should not enterprise anything without calling him to counsel. Now we see that the archb. meddleth with that which every bishop doth in his own diocese / and hath his visitations for that purpose / & will take any matter out of their hands / concludeth also of diverse matters / never making the bishops once privy to his doings.

Higinus / or as some think Pelagius (I speak here as Platina reporteth not thinking that in Higinus time / there was any Metropolitan) ordained that no Metropolitan should condemn any bishop / unless the matter were first both hard and discussed by the bishops of that province / at what time / and after a great while / a bishop was the same we cal a minister. Now the archbishop will without any further assistance or discussion by others suspend him / and in the ende also throw him out of his charge / and if he have the same authority over a bishop / as a bishop over the minister (as it is said) he may do the like unto him also.

The council of Antioch ordained / that if the voices of the bishops were even / and that if half did condemn him / and half clear him / that then the metropolitan bishop should call of the next province some other bishops / which should make an end of the controversy. Whereby appeareth that the Metropolitan had so small authority and power over and above the rest / that he had not so much as the casting voice / when both sides were even / and therefore it appeareth / that besides the names of metropolitan / there was little or no resemblance between those that were then / and those which be now.

Now / to consider how the bishops which are now / differ from the bishops which were in times past / I must call to thy remembrance (gentle reader) that which I have spoken before / which was that then there was / as appeareth out of Cyprian and Jerome / and others / one bishop in every parish or congregation: now one is over a thousand / then every bishop had a several church where he preached and ministered the sacraments: now he hath none / then he ruled that one church (as I shown out of Jerome) in common with the Elders of the same: now he ruleth a thousand by him self / shutting out the ministers / to whom the rule and government belongeth / then he ordained not any minister of the church / except he were first chosen by the presbiterie, and approved by the people of that place whereunto he was ordained: now he ordaineth where there is no place void / and of his private authority / without either choice or approbation of presbytery or people: then he excommunicated not / nor received the excommunicated / but by sentences of the eldership / and consent of the people / as shall appear afterward: now he doth both.

And thus you see that contrary to the word of God / he hath gotten into his own hand / and pulled to him self / both the preeminence of the other ministers / and the liberties of the church / which God by his word had given. And as for the offices wherein there is any labor or travail / those they have turned unto the other ministers / as for example in times past it was not lawful for him that was then an elder / to preach or minister the sacraments in the presence of the bishop / because the bishop him self should do it / and now those which they call elders / may preach and minister the sacraments by the bishops good license / although he be present.

Now if you will also consider how much the Lordship / pomp / and statelines of the bishops in our days / differ from the simplicity of them in times past / I will give you also a taste thereof / if first of all I show the beginning / or as it were the fountain whereupon the pomp grew / which was / when in stead of having a bishop in every parish and congregation / they began to make a bishop of a whole diocese / and of a thousand congregations.

In an epistle of yacharie unto Pope Boniface / it is thus written: it hath been oftentimes decreed / that there should not be a bishop appointed in every village or little city / least they should wax vile through the multitude: whereby it both appeareth / that there was wont to be a bishop in every parish / and upon howe corrupt and evil consideration one bishop was set over a whole diocese. No doubt those that were authoures of this / had learned too well our old proverb / the fewer the better cheare / but the more bishops the meryer it had been with God's people. And they might with as good reason hinder the sun from shining in all places / & the rain from falling upon all grounds / for fear they should not be set by / being common / as to bring in such a wicked decree / whereby under pretence of delivering the bishop from contempt / they sought nothing else but an ambitious and stately Lordshyp over those which had not that title of bishop that they had / although they did the office of a bishop better then they did. And what intolerable presumption is this / to change the institution of God / as though he which ordained not one only / but some number more or les of bishops in every church / did not sufficiently foresee / that the multitude and plenty of bishops could breed no contempt of the office. And it may be as well ordained that the children of pore men should not call them that begat them / fathers and mothers / but only the childrē of the rich / and of noble / least that if every man that hath children / should be called a father / fathers should be set nothing by. And here let us observe by what degrees and stairs Satan lifted the child of perdition unto that proud title of universal bishop. First / where the Lord did ordain that there should be diverse pastors / elders / or bishops in every congregation / Satan wrought first that there should be but one in every church: this was no doubt the first step. Afterwardes he pushed further / and stirred up diverse not to content them selves to be bishops of one church / but to desire to be bishops of a diocese / whereunto although it seemeth that there was resistance (in that it is said that it was decreed often) yet in the end this wicked attempt prevailed / and this was another step. Then were there archbishops of whole provinces / which was the third stayer unto the seat of antichriste. Afterwards they were Patriarchs of one of the .iv. corners of the whole world / the whole church being assigned to the jurisdiction of four / that is to say of the Romaine / Constantinopolitane / Antiochene / and Alexandrine bishops. And these four stayers being laid of Satan / there was but an easy stride for the B. of Rome / into that chair of pestilence / wherein he now sitteth. Having now showed howe this Lordly estate of the bishop began / and upon what a rotten ground it is built / I come to show how far the bishops in our time are / for their pomp and outward statelines / degenerated from the bishops of elder times.

And here I call to remembrance / that which was spoken of the poor estate of Basil and Theodorete: and if M. Doctor will say (as he doth in deed in a certain place) that thē was a time of persecution / and this is a time of peace: it is easily answered / that although Basel were under persecution / yet Theodorete lived under good emperors. But that shall appear better by the Canons / which were rules given for the bishops to frame them selves by.

In the. 4. council of Carthage it is decreed / that the bishops should have a little house near unto the church: what is this compared with so many fair large houses / and with the princely palace of a bishop? And in the same council it is decreed that he should have the furniture and stuff of his house after the common sort / and that his table and diet should be pore / and that he should get him estimation by faithfulness and good conversation.

And in another council / that the bishops should not give them selves to feasts / but be content with a little meat. Let these bishops be compared with ours / whose chambers shine with gilt / whose walls are hanged with clothes of Auris / whose cupbordes are loden with plate / whose tables and diets are furnished with multitude and diversity of dishes / whose daily dinners are feasts: Let them I say be compared together / and they shall be found so unlike / that if those old bishops were alive / they would not know each other. For they would think that ours were princes / and ours would think that they were some hedge priests / not worthy of their acquaintance or fellowshyp.

In the same council of Carthage / it was decreed / that no bishop sitting in any place / should suffer any minister or elder to stand. Now I will report me to themselves how this is kept / and to the pore ministers which have to do with them / and come before them.

The bishops in times past had no tail nor trayne of men after them / and thought it a slander to the gospel to have a number of men before and behind them. And therefore is Paulus Sam of atenus noted as one that brought religion into hatred / and as one that seemed to take delight rather to be a captain of two hundredth / then a bishop / because he had gotten him a sort of serving men to weight on him. An other example not unlike and likewise reprehended is in Ruffine of one Gregory a bishop. Now in our days it is thought a commendation to the bishop / a credit to the gospel / if a bishop have 30. 40. 60. or moe waiting of him / some before some behind / whereof three partes of them (set apart the carrying of a dishe unto the table) have no honest or profitable calling to occupy themselves in two hours of the day / to y ^e filling of the church and commonwealth also with all kind of disorders and greater incommodities / then I mind to speak of / because it is not my purpose.

And here I will note another cause / which brought in this pomp and princely estate of bishops / wherein although I will say more in a word for the pompeous estate / then M. Doctor hath done in all his treatise / yet I will show that although it were more tolerable at the first / now it is by no means to be borne with. * In the ecclesiastical story we read that the inscriptions of divers epystles sent unto bishops were timiotatois kyriois. We read also of aspasticon oicon house of salutations / which Ambrose bishop of Milan had. As for the title of (most honorable Lord's) it was not so great nor so stately as the name of a Lord or knight in our country / for all those that know the manner of the speech of the Grecians do well understand / how they used to call everyone of any mean countenance in the common wealth where he lived kyrion / that is Lord / so we see also the Evangelists use the word Kyrios to note a mean person as when Mary in the. 20. of John / thinking that our savior Christ had been the keeper of the garden calleth him (Kyrion). So likewise in France they call everyone that is gentilman / or hath any honest place Monseur, and so they will say also fainng your honor. Now we know this word (Lord) in our country is used otherwise / to note some great personage / either by reason of birth or by reason of some high dignity in the common wealth / which he occupyeth: and therefore those titles although they were somewhat excessive / yet were they nothing so swelling and stately as ours are.

And as touching Ambrose house / albeit the word doth not employ so great gorgeousnes nor magnificence of an house as the palaces and other magnificall buildings of our bishops: yet the cause whereupon this rose / doth more excuse Ambrose / who being taken from great wealth and government in the common wealth / giving over his office / did retain his house and that which he had gotten.

But our bishops do maintain this pomp and excess / of the charges of the church / with whose goods a great number of idle loitering serving men are maintained / which ought to be bestowed upon the ministers / which want necessary finding for their families / and upon the poor / and maintenance of the universities. As for these riotous expenses of the church goods / when many other ministers want / and of making great dynners and entertayning great Lord's and maiestrates / and of the answer to them that say they do help the church by this means / I will refer the reader to that which Jerome writeth in a certain place where this is handled more at large. By this which I have cited it appeareth / what was one cause of this excess and stately pomp of the bishops / namely that certain noble and rich men / being chosen to the ministry and living somewhat like unto the former estates wherein they were before / others also assayed to be like unto them: as we see in that point the nature of man is too ready to follow / if they see any example before their eyes. But there is no reason because Ambrose and such like did so / therefore our bishops should do it of the churches costs. Nor because Ambrose and such like did tarry in their trim houses which they had built them selves of their own charge before they were bishops / that therefore they should come out of their chambers or narrow houses / into courts and palaces built of the churches costs.

An other reason of this pomp and statelynes of the bishops was / that which almost brought in all poison and popish corruption into the church / and that is a foolish emulation of the manners and fashions of the Idolatrous nations. For as this was the craft of Satan to draw away the Israelites from the true service of God / by their fond desire they had to conform them selves to the fashyons of the gentiles: so to punish unthankfull receiving of the gospel / and to fulfill the Prophesies touching the man of sin / the Lord suffered those that professed Christ to corrupt their ways by the same sleyght of the Devil.

Galerianus Maximinus the Emperor to the end that he might promote the Idolatry and superstition whereunto he was addicted / chose of the choicest magistrates to be priests / and that they might be in great estimation gave eche of them a trayne of men to follow them. And the Christians and Christian Emperors / thinking that that would promote the Christian religion that promoted superstition / and not remembering that it is often times abominable before God / which is esteemed in the eyes of men / endeavored to make their bishops encounter and match with those Idolatrous priests / and to cause that they should not be inferior to them in wealth and outward pomp. And therefore I conclude that seeing the causes and fountaynes from whence this pomp and statelynes of bishops have come / are so corrupt and naught / the thing it self which hath risen of such causes cannot be good.

And thus will I make an end / leaving to the consideration and indifferent waying of the indifferent reader / how true it is that I have before propounded / that our Archbishops / Metropolitans / Archdeacons / Bishops / have besides the names almost nothing common with those which have been in elder times / before the sun of the gospel began to be marvelously darkened / by the stinking mists which the devil sent forth out of the bottomless pit to blind the eyes of men / that they should not see the shame and nakedness of that purpled whore / which in the person of the clergy / long before she gat into her seat prepared her self by paynting her written face / with the couloures of these gorgeous titles and with the show of magnifycall and worldly pomp. For the devil knew well enough / that if he should have set up one only bishop in that seat of perdition / and left all the rest in that simplicity wherein God had appointed them / that his eldest son should neither have had any way to get into that / and when he had gotten it / yet being as it were an owl amongst a sort of birds / should have been quickly discovered.

But I have done / only this I admonish the reader that I do not allow of all those things which I before alleged in the comparison between our Archbyshoppes and the Archbishops of old time / or our bishops and theirs. Only my intent is to show that although there were corruptions / yet in respect of ours they be much more tolerable: and that it might appear how small cause there is that they should allege their examples to confirm the Archbishops and Bishops that now are.

Concerning the offices of commissionership and how unmeet it is that mimisters of the word should exercise them / and how that the word of God doth not permit any such confusion of offices / there shall be by God's grace spoken of it afterward.

To your answer also unto the places of S. Matthew and Luke / the reply is made before. The place of the fourth of the first to the Corinthyans / is well alleged / for it teacheth a moderate estymation of the ministers / and a mean between the contempt and excessive estymation / neither can there be any redyer way to breed that disorder which was amongst the Corinthyans / as to say I hold of such a one / and I of such a one / and I of such another / then to set up certain ministers in so high Titles and great show of worldly honor. For so cometh it to pass / that the people will say / I believe my Lord / and my Lord archbishop / whatsoever our parson say / for they be wise men and learned / as we see it came to pass amongst the Corrinthyans. For the Apostles because they had a show and outward pomp of speech / they carried away the people. For although Saint Paul saith that some said / I hold of Paul / I hold of Apollo / I of Cephas / yet as it appeareth in another place / they held one of this brave eloquent teacher / another of that. For he translated these speeches unto him and his fellows by a figure. All that rule is tyrannycall / which is not lawful / and is more then it ought to be / and therefore the place of Saint Peter is fitly alleged / whereof also I have spoken something before.

You are you say of Hemingius mind / and think that this opinion smelleth of Anabaptism / I have shown how you have depraved and corrupted Hemingius / and desire you to show some better reason of your opinion / autos ephe, will not suffice us. You say / that if we had once obtained equality amongst the clergy / we would attempt it in the laity.

In what star do you see that Master Doctor? Moses saith / that if a man speak of a thing to come / and it come not to pass as he hath spoken / that that man is a false Prophet / if your prophesy come not to pass / you know your judgment already out of Moses.

The Pharisees when our savior Christ inveighed against their ambytion / accused him that he was no friend to Caesar / and went about to discredit him with the civil Magistrate / you shall apply it yourself / you will needs make the Archbyshoppe. &c. neyghboures unto the civil Magistrates / and yet they almost dwell as far a sonder as Rome and Jerusalem / and as Zion and S. Peters Church there / so that the house of the archbishop may be burnt stick and stone / when not so much as the smoke shall approach the house of the civil magistrate.

In the. 116. page / for the authority of the archbishop / is alleged the nynthe Canon of the Council of Antioch / which I have before alleged / to prove how far different the authority of the Metropolitan in those times was from that which is now. For there the Council showeth that every Byshoppe in his Diocese / hath the ordering of all matters within the circuit thereof / and therefore the meaning of the Council to be / that if there be any affairs that touche the whole Church many lande / that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitan privy / as also the Metropolitan might do nothing without making the other Bishops a counsel of that which he attempted / which master Doctor doth clean leave out.

And if this authority which the council giveth to the Metropolitan / being nothing so excessive as y ^e authorytie of our Metropolitans now / had not been over much / or had been justifiable / what needed men father this Canon (which was ordained in this council) of the Apostles / for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles / to give creadite unto this Canon / doth carry with it a note of evil and of shame / which they would have covered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authority.

And in the hundredth twenty and three page / to that which Master Bucer saith / that in the Churches there hath been one which hath been chief over the rest of the ministers / if he mean one chief in every particular church / or one chief over the ministers of divers churches meeting at one Synod / and chief for the time / and for such respects as I have before shown / then I am of that mind which he is: And if he mean any other chief / or after any other sort / I deny that any such cheefety was from the Apostles times / or that any such cheefetie pleaseth the holy ghost / whereof I have before shown the proofs.

And whereas M. Bucer seemeth to allow / that the name of a bishop / which the holy ghost expressly giveth to all the ministers of the word indifferently / was appropriated to certain chief governors of the church / I have before shown by divers reasons / how that was not done without great presumption and manifest danger / and in the end great hurt to the church.

And if M. Doctor delight thus to oppose men's authority to the authority of the holy ghost / and to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture / M. Calvin doth openly misselyke of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certain / which the holy ghost maketh common to moe. And whereas of M. Calvin's words / which saith that there be degrees of honor in the ministry / M. Doctor would gather an archbishop / if he had understanded that an Apostle is above an Evangelist / an Evangelist above a pastor / a pastor above a doctor / and he above an elder that ruleth only / he needed never to have gone to the popish Hierarchy / to seek his dyuersities of degrees / which he might have found in S. Paul. And whereas upon M. Calvin's words / which saith that Paul was one of the chief amongst the Apostles / he would seem to conclude an archbishop amongst the bishops / he should have remembered / that S. Paul's cheeftie amongst the Apostles / consisted not in having any authority or dominion over the rest / but in laboring and suffering more then the rest / and in gifts more excellent then the rest.

Now where as he saith / that we desire to pull the rule from others / that the rule might be in our hands / and we might do what we list / and that we seek to withdraw our selves from controlment of Prince / and Byshoppe / and all. Firste / he may learn if he will / that we desire no other authority then that / which is to the edifying of the church / and which is grounded of the word of God: which if any minister shall abuse to his gain or ambytion / then he ought to abide not only the controlment of the other ministers / yea of the brethren / but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantity of the fault.

And seeing you charge the brethren so sore / you must be put in remembrance / that this unreasonable authority over the rest of the ministers and clergy / came to the bishops and archbishops / when as the Pope did exempt his shauelinges from the obedience / subjection / and jurisdiction of the Princes: now therefore that we be ready to give that subjection unto the Prince / and offer our selves to the Princes correction in things wherein we shall do a miss / do you think it an unreasonable thing / that we desire to be disburdened of the bishops and archbishops yoke / which the Pope hath laid upon our necks?

And in the. 207. page unto the midst of the 214. page / this matter is again handled / where first M. Doctor would draw the place of Galatians the second / to prove an archbishop / and that by a false translation / for hoi dokountes / which is (they that seemed or appeared) he hath translated (they y ^e are the chief) & although the place of the Galatians may be thought of some not so pregnant / nor so full against the archbishop / yet all must needs confess / that it maketh more against him then for him. For S. Paul's purpose is to prove there / that he was not inferioure to any of the Apostles / & bringeth one argument thereof / that he had not his gospel from them / but from Christ immediately / & therefore if the apostles that were esteemed most of / and supposed by the Galatians & others to be the chief / had no superiority over S. Paul / but were equal with him / it followeth that there was none that had rule over the rest. And if there needed no one of the Apostles to be ruler over the rest / there seemeth to be no need / that one bishop should rule over the rest. But that I run not back to that I have handled before / I will not here so much urge the place / as I will not do also that of the Hebrews which followeth / and yet the argument is stronger / then that M. Doctor could answer. For if the writer to the Hebrews / do prove our savior Christ's vocation to be just and lawful / because his calling was contained in the scriptures / as appeareth in the 5. and 6. verse / then it followeth that the calling of the archbishop which is not comprehended there / is neither just nor lawful. For that no man (saith the apostle) taketh that honor unto him self / but he that is called of God. &c. But I say / having before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which overthrow the archbishop / I will let pass these and other places / answering only that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them. He saith therefore afterward / that although one man be not able to be bishop over all the church / yet he may be bishop over a whole diocese / or of a province. Now if I would say the one is as impossible as the other / & for proof thereof allege that which the Philosophers say / that as there are no degrees in that which is infinite / so that of things which are infinite / one thing cannot be more infinite then another / so there are no degrees in impossibility / that of things which are impossible / one thing should be more impossible then another: If I should thus reason / I think I should put you to some pain. But I will not draw the reader to such thorney and subtle questyons / it is enough for us / that the one and the other be impossible / although one should be more impossible then the other. And that it is impossible for one man to be bishop over a whole province / or over a whole dyocese / I leave it to be considered of that which is before said in the description of the office of a bishop / pastor / or minister / where I speak of the necessity of the residence of the bishop in his church.

As a Prince may rule a whole realm / such as France / or England / so may he rule the whole world by officers and magistrates appointed underneath him: And there have been divers Princes / which have had as many lands under their power / as the Pope hath had churches / and although it be somewhat incōuenient / yet I know not why they might not so have / coming lawfully by them. Now I would gladly hear whether you would say the same of a bishop / and if you dare not / then why do you bring the similitude of the government of a Prince over a lande / to prove that an archbishop may be over a whole province. M. Doctor dare boldly say / that there may be one bishop over a whole province / but he dare not say that there may be a bishop over the whole Church. But what better warrant for the one / then for the other? Agayne / if the whole church be in one province or in one realm / which hath been / and is not impossible to be again / if there may be now one bishop over a realm or province / then there may be one bishop over all the church / so that in trauayling with an archbishop / he hath brought forth a Pope.

But he saith that an archbishop hath not the charge of government over the whole province generally / but in cases exempted / & so may do it more easily: But he should have remembered / that he assigned before the offices of archbishop & bishop / to be in all those things / which other ministers are / & that besides those offices / he giveth them particular charges. So that where the office of the minister is but to preach / pray / & minister the sacraments in his parish / the office of archbishop & bishop / is to do the same / and more in the whole prounice or diocese. And so it followeth that it is easier for a minister to discharge his duty in his parish / then for an archbishop or bishop to discharge their duties in any one parish of their province or diocese. For they have in every parish more to do / and greater charge / then the minister of the paryshe hath / then much less are they able to do their duties in all the paryshes of their provinces or dyocese.

After M. Doctor translateth out of M. Calvin / the papists reasons for the supremacy of the Pope / and M. Calvin's solutions. For what purpose he knoweth / I cannot tell / unless it be to blot paper / I know not what he should mean / and the quarrel also which he picketh / to translate this place / is yet more strange. For he saith that the authors of the admonition / borrowed their arguments from the papists / when the contrary is true / that they use the reasons which they of the gospel use against the supremacy of the pope / to overthrow the archbishop. And master Doctor doth use reasons to defend the archbishop / which the papists use to maintain the Pope. For M. Doctor would prove / that for because there is one king over a realm / therefore there may be one bishop over a province / and the papists use the same reason to prove the Pope to be a bishop of the whole church. Shew now one reason / that the authors of the admonition brought of the papists / to prove that there should be no archbishop. But now I perceive his meaning / and that is / that he thought to get some comfort for the archbishop in M. Calvin's solutions made unto the papists reasons for the supremacy: and therefore he hath hailed and pulled in as it were by the shulders / this disputation between the protestants and the papists touching the supremacy. And what is it that M. Calvin saith for the archbishop? It hath been before shown / what his judgment was touching having one minister over all the ministers of a province / and that he doth simply condemn it in his commentary upon the first chap. of the Philippians. Now let it be considered / whether in these sentences he hath said anything against him self. The papists object that for so much as there was one high priest in Jury over all the church / therefore there should be one bishop over all. To whom M. Calvin answereth / that the reason followeth not: for saith he / there is no reason to extend that to all the world / which was profitable in one nation. Hereupon M. Doctor would conclude that M. Calvin allowath one archbishop over a whole province.

If one going about to prove that he may have as many wives as he list / would allege Jacob for an Example which had two wives: and Master Doctor should answer and say / that although he might have two wives / yet it followeth not that he may have as many as he list / would not Master Doctor think that he had great injury / if a man should conclude of these words / that his opinion is that a man may have two wives? I think that he would suppose that he had great wrong / and yet thus would he conclude of Master Calvin's words in this first sentence / whereas in deed M. Calvin declareth a little after / a special reason why there was but one high priest in the whole land of Jury / which is because he was a figure of Christ / and that thereby should be shadowed out his sole meditation between God & his church. And therefore showeth y ^e forsomuch as there is none to represent or figure our savior Christ / that his judgment is / that as there should be no one over all the churches / so should there be no one over any nation. To the papists objecting for the supremacy / that S. Peter was the prince & chief of the apostles / M. Calvin answereth / first by denying that Peter was so / and bringeth many places to prove y ^t he was equal to the other apostles. Afterward he saith / although it be granted / that Peter was chief / yet followeth it not because one may bear rule over twelve being but a few in number / that therefore one may rule over an hundredth thousand / & that it followeth not / that that which is good amongst a few / is forth with good in all the world. Now let all men judge / with what conscience & trust / M. Doct. citeth M. Calvin / for to prove the office of the archbishop. But I marvel that he could not also see that / which M. Calvin writeth in the next sentence almost / where he saith that Christ is only the head of the church / and that the church doth cleave one to another under his dominion: but by what means? according (saith he) to the order and form of policy which he hath prescribed / but he hath prescribed no such form of policy / that one bishop should be over all the ministers and churches in a whole diocese / or one archbishop over all the ministers and churches in a whole province / therefore this form of policy which is by archbishops / and such bishops as we have / is not the means to knit us one to another in unity under the dominion of Christ. Touching the titles and names of honor which are given to the Ecclesiastical persons with us / and how that princes and civil magistrates may and ought to have the title / which cannot be given to the ministers / I have spoken before / and therefore of archbishops / archdeacons / and the lord bishops thus far.

To the next section contained in the. 77. 78. and a piece of the. 79. page.

BEfore I come to speak of prayers / I will treat of the faults that are committed almost thrughout the whole Leyturgy / & public service of the church of England. Whereof one is that / which is often objected by the authors of the admonition / that the form of it / is taken from the church of Antichrist / as the reading of the Epistles and Gospels so cut & mangled / as the most of the prayers / the manner of ministering the Sacraments / of Marriage / of Burial / Confirmation / translated as it were word for word / saving that the gross errors and manifest impieties be taken away. For although the forms & ceremonies which they used / were not unlawful / and that they contained nothing which is not agreeable to the word of God (which I would they did not) yet notwithstanding / neither the word of God / nor reason / nor the examples of the eldest churches both Jewish and Christian / do permit us to use the same forms and ceremonies / being neither commanded of God / neither such / as there may not as good as they / and rather better be established.

For the word of God I have shown before / both by the example of the apostles conforming the Gentiles unto the Jews in their ceremonies / & not contrariwise the Jews to the Gentiles / & by that the wisdom of God hath thought it a good way to keep his people from the infection of idolatry and superstition / to severe them from idolaters by outward ceremonies / and therefore hath forbidden them to do things which are in them selves very lawful to be done.

Now I will add this further / that when as the Lord was careful to severe them by ceremonies from other nations / yet was he not so careful to severe them from any / as from the * Egiptiās amongst whom they lived / & from those nations which were next neighbors unto them / because from them was the greatest fear of infection. Therefore by this constant & perpetual wisdom which God useth to keep his people from idolatry / it followeth / y ^e the religion of God / should not only in matter & substance / but also (as far as may be) inform & fashion differ from y ^e of the idolaters / & especially the papists which are round about us / and amongst us. For in deed it were more safe for us to conform our indifferent ceremonies to the Turks which are far of / then to the papists which are so near.

Common reason also doth teach / that contraries are cured by their contraryes: now Christianity and Antichristianitie / the gospel and popery / be contraries / therefore antichristianitie must be cured not by it self / but by that which is (as much as may be) contrary unto it: So that a meddled & mingled estate of the order of the gospel / & the ceremonies of popery / is not the best way to banish popery. And therefore as to abolish y ^e infection of false doctrine of the papists / it is necessary to establish a diverse doctrine / & to abolish the tyranny of y ^e popish government / necessary to plant the discipline of Christ: so to heal y ^• infection y ^• hath crept into men's minds by reason of the popish order of service / it is meet that the other order were put in the place thereof. Philosophy which is nothing else but reason / teacheth / that if a man will draw one from vice which is an extreme unto virtue / which is the mean / that it is the best way to bring him as far from that vice as may be / and that it is safer and less harm for him to be led somewhat too far / then he should be suffered to remain within the borders and contines of that vice wherewith he is infected. As if a man would bring a droncken man to sobriety / the best and nearest way is to carry him as far from his excess in druicke as may be / and if a man could not keep a mean / it were better to fault in prescribing less then he should drink / then to fault in giving him more then he ought. As we see to bring a stick which is crooked / to be straight / we do not only bow it so far until it come to be straight / but we bend it so far / until we make it so crooked of the other side / as it was before of the first side / to this end / that at the last it may stand straight / and as it were in the mid way between both the crookes / which I do not therefore speak / as though we ought to abolish one evil and hurtful ceremony for another / but that I would show / how it is more dangerous for us that have been plunged in the mire of Popery / to use the Ceremonies of it / then of any other idolatrous and superstitious service of God. Thys wisdom of not conforming it self unto the ceremonies of the Idolaters in things indifferent / hath the church followed in times passed.

Tertullian saith / O saith he / better is the religion of the heathen / for they use no solemnity of the Christians / neither the Lord's day / neither the Pentecoste / and if they knew them / they would have nothing to do with them / for they would be afraid / least they should seem Christians / but we are not afraid to be called heathen.

Constantine the Emperor speaking of the keeping of the feast of Easter / saith that it is an unworthy thing to have anything common with that most spiteful company of the Jews. And a little after he saith / that it is most absurd and against reason / that the Jews should vaunt and glory / that the Christians could not keep those things without their doctrine. And in another place it is said after this sort: It is convenient so to order the matter / that we have nothing common with that nation.

The Councelles although they did not observe them selves always in making of decrees this rule / yet have kept this consideration continually in making their laws / that they would have the Christians differ from others in their ceremonies.

* The council of Laodicia / which was afterward confirmed by the sixthe general council decreed / that the Christians should not take unleavened bread of the Jews / or communicate with their impiety.

* Also it was decreed in another council / that they should not decke their houses with baye leaves and green bows / because the Pagans did use so / and that they should not rest from their labors those days that the paganes did / that they should not keep the first day of every month as they did.

* An other council decreed / that the Christians should not celebrate feasts on the birth days of the Martyrs / because it was the manner of the heathen: whereby it appeareth / that both of singular men and of councils / in making or abolyshing of Ceremonies / heed hath been taken / that the Christians should not be like unto the Idolaters / no not in those things which of them selves are most indifferent to be used / or not used. It were not hard to show the same considerations in the several things which are mentioned of in this admonition / as for example in the ceremonies of prayer / which is here to be handled / we read that Tertullian would not have the Christians sit after they had prayed / because the idolaters did so / but having shown this in general to be the policy of God first / and of his people afterward / to put as much difference as can be commodiously between the people of God and others which are not / I shall not need to show the same in the particulares.

Furthermore / as the wisdom of God hath thought it the best way / to keep his people from infection of idolatry / to make them most unlike the idolaters: so hath the same wisdom of God thought good / that to keep his people in the unity of the truth / there is no better way / then that they should be moste like one to another / and that as much as possibly may be / they should have all the same ceremonies. And therefore S. Paul to establish this order in the church of Corinth / that they should make their gatherings for the pore upon the first day of the Saboth (which is our sunday) allegeth this for a reason / that he had so ordained in other churches / so that as children of one father / and servants of one family / he will have all the churches / not only have one diet / in that they have one word / but also wear / as it were one livery / in using the same ceremonies.

Thys rule did the great council of Nice follow / when it ordained / y ^• where certain at the feast of Pentecost / did pray kneeling / that they should pray standing / the reason whereof is added / which is / that one custom ought to be kept throughout all the churches. It is true / that the diversity of ceremonies ought not to cause the churches to dissent one with another / but yet it maketh much to the avoiding of dissention / that there be amongst them an unity / not only in doctrine / but also in Ceremonies. Now we see plainly / that as the form of our service and Leyturgie cometh to near that of the papists / so it is far different from that of other churches reformed / and therefore in both these respects to be amended.

An other fault there is in the whole service or Liturgy of England / for that it maintaineth an unpreaching ministry / and so consequently an unlawful ministry. I say it maintaineth / not so much in that it appointeth a number of psalms and other prayers and chapters to be red / which may occupy the time which is to be spent in preaching / wherein notwithstanding it ought to have been more wary / considering that the devil under this color of long prayer / did thus in the kingdom of antichriste banish preaching / I say not so much in that point / as for that it requireth necessarily nothing to be done by the minister / which a child of ten year old cannot do / as well and as lawfully / as that man wherewith the boke contenteth it self. Neither can it be shifted / in saying this is done for want of able men to be ministers / for it may be easily answered / that first the want of sufficient ministers ought to be no cause for men to break the vnchāgeable laws of God / which be / that none may be made minister of the church / which cannot teache / that none minister the sacraments which do not preach. For although it might be granted / (which thing I would not deny / no not when there are enough sufficient ministers / ) that they may appoint some godly grave man which can do nothing else but read to be a reader in the church / yet that may not be granted / that they may make of one that can do nothing but read / a minister of the gospel / or one which may have power to minister the sacraments.

Besides that / howe can they say that it is for want of sufficient ministers / when as there be put out of the ministry men that be able to serve God in that calling / and those put in their roumes / which are not able / when there are numbers also which are fit to serve and never sought for / nor once required to take any ministry upon them? If therefore it were lawful to plead want of able ministers / for this dumb ministry which is altogether unlawful / yet would this plea never be good / until such time as both those were restored which are put out / and all other sought forth and called upon which are fit for that purpose.

Again / it cannot be said justly / that they have taken these reading ministers / until such time as better may be gotten / for if the church could procure able ministers / and should desire that they might be ordained over them / they cannot obtain that / considering that these reading ministers have a free hold / and an estate for term of their lives in those churches / of the which they are such ministers: so that by this means / the sheep are not only committed to an idol shepherd / I might say a wolf / and speak no otherwise then Aug. speaketh / in that a not preaching minister hath entrance into the church / but the door also is shut upon him / and sparred against any able minister / that might haply be found out.

There is a third fault / which likewise appeareth almost in the whole body of this service and Liturgy of England / and that is that the profit which might have come by it unto the people / is not reaped. Whereof the cause is / for that he which readeth / is not in some places heard / and in the most places not understanded of the people / through the distance of place between the people and the minister / so that a great part of the people cannot of knowledge tell / whether he hath cursed them or blessed them / whether he hath red in Latin or in English / all the which riseth upon the words of the boke of service / which are that the minister should stand in the accustomed place. For thereupon the minister in saying morning and evening prayer / sitteth in the chauncell / with his back to the people / as though he had some secreate talk with God / which the people might not hear. And hereupon it is likewise / that after morning prayer for saying a nother number of prayers / he climeth up to the further end of the chauncel / and runneth as far from the people / as the wall will let him / as though there were some variance between the people and the minister / or as though he were afraid of some infection of plage. And in deed it reneweth the memory of the Levitical priesthood / which did withdraw himself from the people into the place called the holiest place / where he talked with God / and offered for the sins of the people.

Likewise for Marriage he cometh back again into the body of the church / and for baptism unto the church door / what comeliness / what decency / what edifying is this? Decency (I say) in running and trudging from place to place / edifying: in standing in that place / and after that sort / where he can worst be hard and understanded. S. Luke showeth / that in the primitive church both the prayers and preachings / and the whole exercise of religion was done otherwise. For he showeth howe S. Peter sitting amongst the rest / to the ende he might be the better heard / rose / & not that only / but that he stood in the midst of the people / that his voice might as much as might be / come indifferently to all their ears / and so standing / both prayed and preached. Now if it be said for the chapters & Litany / there is commandment given / that they should be red in the body of the church / in deed it is true / and thereof is easily perceived this disorder which is in saying the rest of the prayers / partly in the hither end / and partly in the further end of the chauncell. For seeing that those are red in the body of the church / that the people may both hear and understand what is red / what should be the cause why the rest should be red farther of / unless it be / that either those things are not to be heard of them / or at the least not so necessary for them to be heard as the other which are recited in the body or midst of the church. And if it be further said / that the boke leaveth that to the discretion of the ordinarye / and that he may reform it if there be anything amis / then it is easily answered again / that besides that it is against reason / that the commoditye and edifying of the church should depend upon the pleasure of one man / so that upon his either good or evil advise and discretion / it should be well or evil with the church: Besides this (I say) we see by experience of the disorders which are in many churches and dioceses in this behalf / how that if it were lawful to commit such authority unto one man / yet that it is not safe so to do / considering that they have so evil quitten them selves in their charges / and that in a matter / the inconvenience whereof being so easily seen / and so easily reformed / there is notwithstanding so great and so general an abuse. And the end of the order in the boke is to be observed / which is to keep the prayers in the accustomed place of the church / chapel / or chauncell / which how maketh it to edification? And thus for the general faults committed either in the whole Liturgy / or in the most part of it / both that I may have no need to repeat the same in the particulares / and that I be not compelled always to enter a new disputation / so often as M. Doctor saith very unskillfully / and unlike a divine / whence so ever this or that come / so it be not evil / it may be well established in the church of Christ.

Now I come to the form of prayer which is prescribed / wherein the authors of the admonition declare / that their meaning is not to disallow of prescript service of prayer / but of this form that we have. For they expound themselves in the additions unto the first part of the admonition. It is not to any purpose / y ^t M. Doctor setteth himself to prove / that there may be a prescript order of prayer by Justin Martyrs testimony / which notwithstanding hath not one word of prescript form of prayers / only he saith there were prayers. He saith in deed the ancient fathers say that there hath been always such kind of prayers in the churches / & although they do say so / yet all men may understand easily / that M. doctor speaketh this rather by conjecture / or that he hath heard other mē say so: for so much as that Doctor which he hath chosen out to speak for all the rest / hath no such thing / as he fathereth on him. He saith that after they have baptized / they pray for them selves / & for him that is baptized / and for all men that they may be mete to learn the truth / and to express it in their honest conversation / and that they be found to keep the commandments / that they may attain to eternal life / but is this to say y ^e there was a prescript form of prayer / when he showeth nothing else but the chief points upon y ^e which they conceived their prayers? If you had alleged this to prove what were the matters or principal points that the primitive church used to pray for / you had alleged this to purpose / but to allege it for a proof of a prescript form of prayer / when there is not there mentioned so much as the essential form of prayer (which is the asking of our petitions in the name / and through the intercession of our savior Christ) without the which there is not / nor cannot be any prayer / argueth that either you little know what the form of prayer is / or that you thought (as you charge the authors of the admonition so often) that this gear of yours should never have come to the examination. But for as much as we agree of a prescript form of prayer to be used in the church let that go: this that I have said / is to show that when M. Doctor happeneth of a good cause / which is very seldom in this boke / yet then he marreth it in the handling. After he affirmeth / that there can be nothing shown in the whole boke / which is not agreeable unto the word of God.

I am very loath to enter into this field / albeit M. Doctor doth thus provoke me / both because the Papists will lightly take occasion of evil speaking / when they understand that we do not agree amongst our selves in every point / as for that some few professors of the gospel being private men / boldened upon such treatises / take such ways sometimes / and break forth into such speeches / as are not meet nor convenient.

Notwythstanding my duty of defending the truth / and love which I have first towards God / and then towards my country / constraineth me being thus provoked / to speak a few words more particularly of the form of prayer / that when the blemishes thereof do appear / it may please the Queens majesty / and her honorable Council / with those of the Parliamente / whom the Lord hath used as singular instruments to deliver this realm from the hot furnaice and iron yoke of the popish Egypt / to procure also / that the corruptions which we have brought from them (as those wish which we being so deeply dide and stained / have not so easily shaken of) may be removed from amongst us / to the end that we being nearelyer both joined unto the sincerity of the gospel / and the policy of other reformed churches / may thereby be joined nearer with the Lord / and may be set so far from Rome / that both we may comfort our selves in the hope / that we shall never return thither again / & our adversaries which desire it / and by this too much agreement with them / and too little with the reformed churches / hope for it / may not only be deceived of their expectation / but also being out of all hope of that which they desire / may the sooner yield themselves unto the truth / whereunto they are now disobedient.

And as for the papists triumph in this case / I shall not greatly need to fear it / considering that their discords and contentions are greater / and that our strife is / because we would be farther from them. For the other that profess the gospel / I will desire in the name of God / that they abuse not my labor to other end / then I bestow it / and that they keep them selves in their callings / commit the matter by prayer unto the Lord / leaving to the ministers of the word of god / and to the magistrates that / which appertaineth unto them.

To come therefore to touch this matter / I answer that there is fault in the matter / and fault in the form. In the matter / for that there are things there / that ought not to be / and things there are wanting in the order that should be. Of the first sort is / that we may evermore be defended from all adversity.

Now / for as much as there is no promise in the scripture / that we should be free from all adversity / and that evermore / it seemeth that this prayer might have been better conceived / being no prayer of faith / or of the which we can assure our selves that we shall obtain it. For if it be said that by the word (adversity) is meant all evil / we know that it hath no such signification / neither in this tongue of ours / neither in other tongues which use the same word in common with us / but that it signifieth trouble / vexation / and calamitye / from all the which we may not desire always to be delivered. And whatsoever can be alleged for the defense of it / yet everyone that is not contentious / may see that it needeth some caution or exception.

In the collect upon the twelfth Sunday after Trinity Sunday / and likewise in one of those which are to be said after the Offertorie (as it is termed) is done / request is made / that God would give those things which we for our unworthiness dare not ask / which carrieth with it still the note of the popish servile fear / and savoreth not of that confidence and reverent familiarity / that the children of God have thorough Christ / with their heavenly father. For as we dare not without our savior Christ ask so much as a crumb of bread / so there is nothing which in his name we dare not ask / being needful for us / and if it be not needful / why should we ask it? And if all the prayers were gathered together / and referred to these two heads of God's glory / and of the things which pertain to this present life / I can make no Geometrical and exact measure / but verily I believe / there shall be found more then a third part of the prayers which are not psalms and texts of scriptures / spent in praying for / and praying against the commodities / and incommodities of this life / which is contrary to all the arguments or contents of the prayers of the church / which are set down in the scripture / and especially of our savior Christ's prayer / by the which ours ought to be directed / which of .vii. petitions / bestoweth one only that ways. And this / these foresaid prayers do / not only in general words / but by deducting the commodities and incommodities of this life into their particular kinds / & we pray for the avoiding of those dangers which are nothing near us / as from lightning and thundering in the midst of winter / from storm and tempest / when the weather is most fair / and the seas most calm. &c. It is true / that upon some urgent calamity / a prayer may and ought to be framed / which may beg either the commodity for want whereof the Church is in distress / or the turning away of that mischief which either approacheth / or which is already upon it: but to make those prayers which are for the present time and danger / ordinarye and dailye prayers / I cannot hitherto see any / either scripture or example of the primitive church. And here for the simples sake I will set down after what sort this abuse crept into the church.

There was one Mamercus bishop of Vienna / which in the time of great earthquakes which were in France / instituted certain supplications / which the Grecians / & we of them call the Litany / which concerned that matter: there is no doubt but as other discommodities rose in other countries / they likewise had prayers accordingly. Now Pope Gregory either made himself / or gathered the supplications that were made against the calamities of every country / and made of them a great Litany or supplication / as Platina calleth it / and gave it to be used in all churches: which thing albeit all churches might do for the time in respect of the case of the casamity which the churches suffered / yet there is no cause why it should be perpetual / that was ordained but for a time / and why all lands should pray to be delivered from the incommodities / that some land hath been troubled with.

The like may be said of the gloria patri, and the Athanasius Crede: it was first brought into the church / to the ende that: nen thereby should make an open profession in the church of the divinity of the son of God / against the detestable opinion of Arius and his disciples / wherewith at that time marvelously swarmed almost the whole Christendom / now that it hath pleased the Lord to quench that fire / there is no such cause why these things should be in the church / at the least why that gloria patri, should be so often repeated.

Moreover / to make Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc dimittis, ordinarye and daily prayers / seemeth to be a thing not so convenient / considering that they do no more concern us / thē all other scriptures do / and then doth the Ave Maria, as they called it. For although they were prayers of thanks giving in Simeon / yacharie / and the blessed virgin Mary / yet can they not be so in us / which have not received like benefits / they may be added to the number of Psalms / and so song as they be / but to make daily and ordinary prayers of them / is not without some inconvenience and disorder.

And so have I answered unto those things which are contained in the 202. 203. pages / saving that I must admonish the reader / that whereas you will prove that we ought to have an ordinarye prayer to be delivered from danger of thunder / lightnings. &c. because there are examples of certain that have been killed thereby / you might as well bring in a prayer / that men may not have falls frō their horses / may not fall into the hands of robbers / may not fall into waters / and a number such more sudden deaths / wherewith a greater number are taken away / then by thunderings or lightnings / and such like / and so there should be never any end of begging these earthly cōmodityes / which is contrary to the form of prayer / appointed by our savior Christ.

And whereas you allege the petition of the Lord's prayer (deliver us from evil) to prove this prayer against Thunder. &c. besides that all the commodities and discommodities of this life are prayed for / and prayed against in that petition / whereby we desire our daily bread: it is very strange to apply that to the thunder / that is understanded of the devil / as the article apo tou ponerou doth declare. And that it is a marvelous conclusion / that for so much as we ought daily and ordinarily / and publicly desire to be delivered from the Devil / Ergo, we ought daily and ordinarily / and publicly / desire to be delivered from thunder. It is one thing to correct Magnificat, and another thing to show the abuse of it: And therefore I see no cause why you should use this allusion between Magnificat & significat, unless it be for y ^t you purposing to set out all your learning in this boke / would not so much as forget an old rotten proverb / which trotted amongst the monks in their cloisters / of whom I may justly say / which Tully said in a nother thing. Nec quicquam ingenium potest monasterium: that is / the cloister could never bring forth any witty thing / for here although there be Rythmus, yet it is sine ration.

As these are diverse things more then ought to be conveniently / so want there some things in the prayers. There are prayers set forth to be said in the common calamities / and universal scourges of the realm / as plague / famine. &c. and in deed so it ought to be by the word of God joined with a public fast commanded / not only when we are in any calamity / but also when any the churches round about us / or in any country receive any general plague or grievous chastisement at the Lord's hand. But as such prayers are needful / whereby we beg release from our distresses / so there ought to be as necessary prayers of thanks giving / whē we have received those things at the Lord's hand / which we asked in our prayers. And thus much touching the matter of the prayers / either not altogether sound / or else too much or too little.

Concerning the form / there is also to be misliked: A great cause whereof is the following of the form used in Popery / against which I have before spoken. For whilst that service was set in many points as a pattern of this / it cometh to pas / that instead of such prayers as the primitive churches have used / & those that be reformed / now use / we have diverse short cuts & shreddings / which may be better called wishes then prayers. And that no man think that this is some idle fancy / & that it is no matter of weight / what form of prayer we use / so that the prayers be good / it must be understanded / that as it is not sufficient to preach the same doctrine which our savior Christ & his apostles have preached / unless the same form of doctrine / and of teaching be likewise kept: so is it not enough that the matter of our prayer be such as is in the word of God / unless that the form also be agreeable unto the forms of prayers in the scripture. Now we have no such forms in the scripture / as that we should pray in .ii. or .iii. lines / and thē after having red a while some other thing / come and pray as much more / and so to the .xx. and .xxx. time / with pauses between.

If a man should come to a Prince / and keep such order in making his petitions unto him / that having very many things to demand / after he had demanded one thing / he would stay a long time / and then demand another / and so the third / the prince might well think / that either he came to ask before he knew what he had need of / or that he had forgotten some piece of his suit / or that he were distracted in his understanding / or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication. And therefore how much more convenient were it / that according to the manner of the reformed churches: first the minister with an humble and general confession of faults / should desire the assistance of the Lord / for the fruitful handling and receiving of the word of God / and then after that we have heard the Lord speak unto us in his word by his minister / the church should likewise speak unto the Lord / and present all those petitions and suits at once / both for the whole church and for the Prince and all other estates which shall be thought needful.

And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts / it may be answered / that S. Luke doth not express the whole prayers at large / but only set down the sums of them / and their chief points. And further it may be answered / that always those prayers were continued together / and not cut off / and shred into diverse small pieces.

An other fault is / that all the people are appointed in diverse places to say after the minister / whereby not only the time is unprofitably wasted / & a confused voice of the people one speaking after another caused / but an opinion bred in their heads / that those only be their prayers which they say and pronounce with their own mouths / which causeth them to give the les heed to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the minister / which notwithstanding are as well their prayers / as those which they pronounce after the minister / otherwise then the order which is left unto the church of God doth bear. For God hath ordained the minister to this ende / that as in public meetings / he only is the mouthe of the Lord from him to the people / even so he ought to be only the mouthe of the people from them unto the Lord / and that all the people should attend to that which is said by the minister / and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is said / and there hope that it shall so be and come to pas which is prayed / by the word (Amen) as S. Paul declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians. And Justin Martyr showeth to have been the custom of the churches in his time.

Although these blots in the Common prayer / be such as may easily enough appear unto any which is not wedded to a prejudicate opinion / and that there is no great difficultye in this matter / yet I know that this treatise of prayer will be subject to many reprehensions / and that there will not be wanting some probable colors also / whereby these things may be defended / if men will set them selves to strive and to contend: yet (for the desire that I have that these things should be amended / and for the instruction of the simpler which are studious of the truth) I have been bold to utter that which I think / not doubting also but that the light of the truth shall be able to scatter all those mists of reasons / which shall go about to darken the clearness thereof.

To the next section beginning at the. 79. page / and holding on until the. 82. page.

MAister D. requireth that it should be proved unto him / that by private baptism is meant baptism by women. First it is meant / that it should be done by some other then the minister / for that the minister is bid to give them warning / that they should not baptize the child at home in their house without great cause and necessity. Secondarily / I would gladly ask him who they be that are present / when y ^e child is so shortly after it is borne in great danger of death. And last of all M. Doctor doth not see / howe he accuseth all the magistrates of this realm of the neglect of their duty / in that they allow of the daily practicing by women in baptising children / if so be that the boke did not so appoint it or permit it. If he meant plainly herein / there needed not so much ado.

The place of S. Matthew is as strong against women's baptising / as it is against their preaching. For the ministry of the word and sacraments cannot be pulled in sonder / which the Lord hath joined together from time to time. For Noah which was a preacher unto the old world of the will of God / was ordained also of God to make the Ark / which was a Sacrament and seal of his preaching touching the destruction of the world. And Abraham whom the Lord would have to be the Doctor of his church / which was then in his family / was also commanded to minister the Sacrament of circumcision unto his family. The priests and Levites which were appointed to teache the people / were also appointed to sacrifice / and to minister other sacraments in the church. Likewise the same Prophets which God stirred up to preach / he also ordained to cōfirm the same by signs and sacraments. The same may be also brawn through out the New Testament / as unto every of the twelve / and afterward to the. 70. power was given / both to preach the gospel / and also to confirm with signs and miracles which were seals of their doctrine. And S. Paul by the commandment that our savior Christ gave him to preach / vndertoke also to baptize / although there were no express words that licensed him thereunto: for he knew right well that it was the perpetual ordinance of God / that the same should be the ministers of the word and sacraments. Whervpon it followeth / that for as much as women may not preach the gospel / no not by the laws of the realm / that they ought not to minister baptism. But M. Doctor riseth up and saith / that a woman in the time of necessity / and when there is none other that either can or will preach / may preach the gospel in the church.

This is strange doctrine / and such as strengtheneth the Anabaptists hands / and savoreth stronger that ways / then any one thing in all the admonition / which is so often condemned of Anabaptism. Hys first reason to prove it / is y ^t there are examples thereof. When we allege the examples of all the churches of the apostles times / to prove the election of the minister by the church / and in other cases which are general examples approved and executed by the apostles / contrary to no commandment nor institution of God / yea / and as hath been proved according to the commandment of God / M. Doctor giveth us our answer in a word / that examples prove not: now that the question is to make good women's preaching in the church / examples I will not say of all churches / but of no one church / only of a few singular persons / not according to the commandment of the word of God / but clean contrary to the prescripte word of God / I say / now examples / and such singular examples are good proofs and strong arguments.

Now / if the speech be a true messenger of the heart / I perceive M. doctor is of this mind / that he would have women preach in the church of England at this time: for he cannot deny (and he also confesseth it sometimes) that this is the time of necessity / & in deed it must be needs an extreme necessity / that driveth to make one man pastor of two churches / especially so far distant / that driveth to make men which are not able to teach / ministers / and diverse more things which are contrary to the word of God. Therefore this being a time of necessity / by M. Doctors judgment we ought to have women to preach. Besides this he saith / if neither none other can or will preach / that then women may preach / but in the most churches of this realm / there is none that either can or will preach / therefore there / and in those churches women (at the least if they be able) may preach the gospel / and consequently minister the sacraments.

In the. 187. page / he citeth M. Calvin in the. 13. chap. section. 32. to prove that women may teach: wherein I marvel what he meaneth so to allege M. Calvin continually / he alledgeth the. 13. chapter and no book / as though he had written but one boke / and in deed there is no such thing in no such chapter of any boke of his institutions / or in any other place throughout his whole works / as I am persuaded. If this fault had been but twice or thrice / I would have thought it had been the printers / but now that it is continual and so oftentimes / surely he giveth great suspicion / that either somebody hath mocked him with these places / or else he would abuse others / and especially him that should answer his boke / setting him to seek that he should never find.

As for M. Calvin's judgment / what it is of women's preaching / it may appear by that he will not by any means / no not in the time of necessity (as they term it) suffer either woman or any lay mā to baptize or minister any sacrament / and therefore not to preach. And as for the examples of Mary the sister of Moses / of Olda / of Anna / and the daughters of Philip the euangelist / which are all called prophetisses (for I think M. doctor meaneth these examples) as for them I say / it will be hard for to show that they ever prophesied / or taught openly in any public meeting or congregation. But the surer answer is / that although the Lord do sometimes not being under any law change the order which he hath set / in raising up certain women / partly to the shame of men / and to humble them / partly to let them understand that he can / if he would / want their ministry: yet it is not lawful for us to draw that into example / and to follow it: or that for as much as he breaketh the law which is not subject unto it / and which he made not for him self / that therefore we may break the law whereunto we be subject / and to whom it is given. But we must go in the broad high way of the commandment / and of the ordinary usage of God in governing his church / and not in the biepath of certain singular examples which have been in diverse ages. And as often as God hath used this extraordinary means of the ministry of women / so often also hath he confirmed their calling either by miracle or some wonderful issue / or with some other singular note and mark / whereby he hath made their calling otherwise strange and monstrous / most certain and undoubted to all men.

There is greater difficulty then M. Doctor mentioneth / in the words of S. Paul / where he saith a woman praying or Prophesying ought to be veiled / and have her head covered / in which words it seemeth that the Apostle lycenceth a woman to prophecy / so that she do it with her head covered. But to him that shall diligently consider the place / it shall appear / that the women of Corinth / did pass the bounds of modesty and of shamefastness / two ways / whereof one was / that they came into the congregation contrary to the custom of those countries / with their heads & faces uncovered: another was / that they also took upon them to speak in the congregation / both which faults S. Paul condemned / but in their several and proper places. Although therefore speaking against the abuse of uncovering their head / he doth not condemn their boldness in teaching / yet he did not therefore approve it / the confutation whereof he reserved to a more commodious place. But saith he / if women do baptize / it is in private houses.

I have shown before that they may not baptize at all / therefore not in private houses: besides that that I have in the Reply unto the section in the one and twenty page shown / how it is not lawful neither to preach the word / nor to minister the Sacraments in private corners / for the which matter of not ministering the Sacraments in private houses / to the authors of the Admonition / citing the eleventh Chapter of the first Epistle unto the Corrinthians / M. Doctor answereth that he reproveth the profanation of the supper by banketting and contempt of their brethren / and exhorteth to tarry one for another.

But what is this to the purpose? we ask not M. Doctor the interpretation of this place / as we do not of all the rest which he interpreateth / where there is no occasion in the world to interpreate them / being of them selves very clear / and the interpretation which is brought never almost making ▪ anything for the solution of that which is objected / which I desire the Reader to mark throughout his whole book. For what if S. Paul reprove the profanation of the supper of the Lord / doth it follow therefore that he doth not give to understand / that the Sacrament should be administered in a common assembly? What if he exhort to tarry one for another / therefore doth he not dehorte from celebrating of the sacrament in a private house?

And surely me think / you cannot be so ignorant as you make yourself / that you should not understand their argument / and therefore I think you do rather dissemble it / as you do in diverse other places. For all men may easily perceive / that as S. Paul opposeth the supper of the Lord / to the common supper: his banket / to the common banket: so he opposeth there manifestly the church and congregation / unto the private house: and declareth that as the common supper or banket / ought to be kept at their houses / so the Lord's supper and his banket / ought to be celebrated in the congregation.

To the Admonition objecting in the ninety and two page that John baptized openly amongst the congregation / he answereth and saith / that it may be as well concluded that we should baptize only in the river of Jordan / and none but those that be of age. By which saying he giveth to understand / that to baptize in the church / hath no greater necessity thē y ^e baptising in Jordan / nor it skilleth no more whether baptism be ministered in the public assembly / thē it is necessary or skilleth / whether we be baptized in the river of Jordan / & that the baptism of young infantes / hath no better grounds then private baptism hath. The later whereof (both being absurd) is too too injurious unto the baptism of young infantes. For as of our savior Christ's preachings in publyke places / and refusing private places / we do gather that the preaching of the word ought to be public: even so of S. John's preaching and baptising in open meetings / we conclude that both preaching and baptysing / ought to be in public assemblies.

And although to someone action there concur divers things / which partly are not to be followed at all / partly are indifferent to be followed or not followed: yet neither the unlawfulness of the one to be followed / nor the indifferency of the other / can hynder / but there are other some things in the same action necessary to be followed. Which may be considered both of the place of the Acts / touching the election / where I have proved some things there mentioned to be necessary to be done in elections / although other some be not convenient nor fit for us to follow. And I have shown it also by M. Calvin / which Master Doctor allegeth for him self / and by Cyprian / whose authority he would be loath to reject I am sure / least he should lose the opinion of his studiousnesse of the old writers / which he hunteth so dyligently after in this book / and whereof he maketh the authors of the Admonition so great contemners. And it is not hard to show the same in .xx. places more / as in S. Matthew and S. Luke / where / as there are divers things not to be followed of the ministers now / other things indifferent to be followed / so are there also other things that be as well commanded to all the ministers that now are / as they were then either to the 12. or. 70. disciples. And other reason he addeth there / that S. Peter baptized in Cornelius house. But M. Doctor maketh not the best choice of his arguments / for S. Paul's baptysing in the house of the gayler / had been more fit for him. For unto his place it may be easily answered / that Cornelyus having so great a family as it is like he had / and besides that divers soldiers underneath him / and further his friends and his acquaintance which he had called / had a competent number / and as many as would make a congregation / and as could commodiously be preached unto in one place. But the answer to both these examples and other such like / as that S. Paul baptized the house of Stephana is easy. For there being persecutions at that time / so that it was not safe neither for the minister / nor for the people to be seen / it was meet that they should do it in houses / which otherwise they would have done in open places. And then / those houses which received the congregation / were not as I have shown for the time to be counted private houses. And further in places where the gospel hath not been received / nor no church gathered / but one only household embracing the gospel / I say in such a case / and especially in the time of persecution / where should the ministers preach or minister the sacraments more conveniently / then in that house where those professors of the gospel be? Now to draw this into our churches / which may safely come into open places / and where the church and congregation standeth of divers households / is a token of great want of judgment / in shuffelyng those things together / which for the great diversity of their natures will not be mingled.

And in the page. 152. he bringeth other reasons to prove that the sacraments may be ministered in a private house / whereof the first is / that our savior Christ celebrated his supper in a private house / and in an inner parlor / the reason whereof is easily to be known / for the law of God ordained that every householder in his house should eat the passover with his own family / if it were so great / as that they might well eat up a whole Lamb.

Our savior Christ therefore with his household / observeth this law / and for because he would declare that the passover had his ende / and that his holy sacrament of the supper should come in place thereof / he doth forthwith celebrate it in y ^e same place. Which if he had not done / neither could he have done it at all (the hour of his apprehension then approaching) neither should it so lively have appeared / that either the passover was abolyshed / or that the supper came in place of it / being celebrated both at another time / & in another place. For the celebrating of the supper in houses in the Apostles times / and in Iustins and Tertullian's times / which were times of persecution / I have spoken before / where also I declared that such houses for the time are not private but public.

And these are his reasons wherewith he would prove / that the sacraments / and therefore also the sacrament of baptism / may be ministered in a private house. He hath certain other to prove that women may baptize / whereof the first is in the. 93. page / and that is / that Sephora Moses wife / circumcised her child / whereunto I have answered partly before / that particular examples / especially contrary to general rules / are not to be followed / and will further answer / if I first admonish the reader / whereupon this baptism of mydwiues and in private houses rose / that when we know of how rotten a stock it came / the fruit it self may be more loathsome unto us. It first therefore rose upon a false interpretation of the place of S. John. Unless a man be borne again of water & of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Where certain do interpreate the word water for the material & elemental water / wherewith men are washed / when as our savior Christ taketh water there / by a translation or borrowed speech / for the spirit of God / the effect whereof it shadoweth out. For even as in another place by the fire and the spirit / he meaneth nothing but the spirit of God / which purgeth and purifieth as the fire doth: so in this place / by the water and the spirit / he meaneth nothing else / but the spirit of God / which cleanseth the filth of sin / and cooleth the broiling heat of an unquiet conscience / as water washeth the thing which is foul / and quencheth the heat of the fire. Secondarily / this error came by a false and unnecessary conclusyon drawn of that place. For although the scripture should say / that none can be saved / but those which have the spirit of God / and are baptized with material and elemental water / yet ought it to be understanded of those which can conveniently and orderly be brought to baptism / as the scripture saying / that who so doth not believe the gospel / is already condemned / meaneth this sentence of those which can hear the gospel / and have discretion to understand it when they hear it / and cannot here shut under this condemnation / either those that be borne deaf / and so remain / or little infantes / or natural fools / that have no wit to conceive what is preached.

And hereupon * S. Augustine concludeth / that all not baptized are condemned / which is as absurdly concluded of him / as that of our savior Christ's words (except one eat the flesh of the son of man / he hath not life) he concludeth that whatsoever he be which receiveth not the sacrament of the supper / is damned.

Upon this false conclusion of S. Augustine / hath risen this profanation of the sacrament of baptism / in being ministered in private houses / & by women or lay men / as also upon his other absurd conclusion / sprong a horrible abuse of the Lord's supper / whilst they did thrust the bread and wyne into young infants mouths / for that men were persuaded / that otherwise if their children should die before they were baptized or had received the supper / they were damned forever. And what better token can there be / that this was the cause of this blind baptism / then that the papists from whom this baptism by women is translated / were of the same judgment / and for that cause brought in their baptism by women. Hereupon may be added another cause / which is that as (when the church began not only to declyne / but to fall away from the sincerity of religion) it borrowed a number of other profanations of the Heathen: so also it borrowed this. For as the Heathen had women priests / so it would have also her women priests / and that this was another occasion of bringing in the baptism by women / it appeareth by your Clement / if he can speak any truth.

Now I return to the example of Sephora / and say that the unlawfulness of that fact doth appear suffyciently in that she did it / before her husband Moses / which was a Prophet of the Lord / and to whom that office of circumcysion did appertain: so that unless M. Doctor would have mydwyues baptize in the presence of the bishop or the minister / there is no cause why he should allege this place. Besides that she did cut of that foreskin of the infant not of mind to obey the commandment of God / or for the salvation of the child / but in a choler only / to the ende that her husband might be eased and have release: which mind appeareth in her / both by her words / and by casting away in anger the forskin which she had cut of. And if it be said that the event declared that the act pleased God / because that Moses forthwith waxed better / and was recovered of his sickness / I have shown before / how if we measure things by the event / we shall oftentimes justify the wicked / and take the righteousness of the righteous from them. An other reason he hath / which is / that the dignity of the sacraments doth not depend upon the man / whether he be minister or no minister / good or evil.

In deed upon this point whether he be a good or an evil minister it dependeth not / but on this point / whether he be a minister or no / dependeth not only the dignity / but also y ^e being of the sacrament: so that I take the baptism of women / to be no more the holy sacrament of baptism / then I take any other daily or ordinary washing of the child. Neither let any man think / that I have at unawares slipped into this asseveration / or that I have forgotten / that sone after the times of the Apostles / it was the use of certain churches / that deacons should baptize in the time of necessity (as they call it.) For as for the baptism of deacons / I hold it to be lawful / for because although (as it is with us) they give him the name of deacon / yet in deed he is / as he then was in the elder times a minister / and not a deacon. And although he did then provide for the poor / and so had two functions (which was not meet) yet his office ought to be esteemed of the principal part of his function / which was preaching and ministering of the Sacraments / in certain cases. And as for the baptysing by lay men / considering that it is not only against the word of God / but also founded upon a false ground / and upon an imagined necessity (which is none in deed) it moveth me nothing at all / although it be very ancient / for so much as the substance of the sacrament depended chiefly of the institution and word of God / which is the form / and as it were the life of the Sacrament / of which institution this is one / and of the chief partes / that it should be celebrated by a minister. For although part of the institution / in that the name of the holy Trinity is called upon / be observed: yet if the whole institution be not / it is no more a Sacrament / then the papists communion was / which celebrating in one kind / took a part of the institution / and left the other. And for so much as S. Paul saith / that a man cannot preach which is not sent / no not although he speak the words of the scripture and interpreate them: so I cannot see / how a man can baptize / unless that he be sent to that end / although he pour water and rehearse the words which are to be rehearsed in the ministry of baptism. I know there be divers difficultyes in this question / and therefore I was loath to enter into it / but that the answearer setteth down so confidently / that it maketh no matter for the truth of baptism / whether he be minister or no minister / and so whether one have a calling or no calling. Wherein notwithstanding he doth not only by his often handling of one thing / confound his reader / but him self also / and forgetteth that he is in another question then which is propounded. For although it should be granted him / that the sacrament doth not depend upon that / yet hath he not that which he would have / that women may baptize. For it is one thing to say the baptism which is ministered by women / is good and effectual / and another thing to say that it is lawful for women to minister baptism. For there is no man doubteth: but that the baptism which is ministered by an heretical minister is effectual / and yet I think that M. Doctor will not say / that therefore an heretical minister may baptize / and that it is lawful for heretics to baptize in the church. And therefore men must not only take heed (as M. Doctor saith) that they usurp not that which they are not called unto / but they must also take heed that they receive not functions and charges upon them / whereof they are not capable / although they be thereunto called.

In the 153. page M. Bucer's censure upon the communion book is cited / for the allowance of that it hath touching private baptism / and consequently of the baptism by women. It may be / that as M. Bucer although otherwise very learned hath other gross absurdities / so he may have that. But it had been for the credit of your cause / if you had shown that out of those writings / which are published and known to be his / and not out of those whereof men may doubt / whether ever he wrote any such or no: and if he wrote / whether they be corrupted by those into whose hands they came. And if you would take any advantage of M. Bucer's testimony / considering y ^• a witness is a public person / you should have brought him out of your study into the Stationers shop / where he mought have been common to others as well as to you / where by his style and manner of writing / as it were by his gestures & countenaunces / & by those things that go before and come after / as it were by his head & his feet / we might the better know whether it were the true Bucer or no. For although I will not say but that this may be Bucer's doing / yet it seemeth very strange / that Bucer should not only contrary to the learned writers now / but also contrary to all learned antiquity / and contrary to the practice of the church / whilst there was any tolerable estate / alow of women's baptising. Tertullian saith it is not permitted unto a woman to speak in the church / nor to teache / nor to baptize / nor to do any work of a man / much less of a minister. And in another place / although he do permit it to be done of lay men in the time of necessity (as it is termed) yet he giveth not that lycence to the woman. Epiphanius upbraideth Marcian that he suffered women to baptize / and. in another book he derydeth them that they made women bishops / and. in another book he saith / it was not granted onto the holy mother of Christ to baptize her son. Augustine although he were of that mind / that children could not be saved without baptism / yet in the time of necessity (as it is called) he doth not allow either of baptism in private houses or by women / but when there was danger the women hasted to carry the children unto the church / and although. he do seem to allow of the baptism of a lay man in the time of necessity / yet there also he mentioneth not women's baptism / and further he doubteth whether the child should be baptized again / which was baptized by a lay man. And in y ^e fourth council of Carthage it is simply without exception decreed / y ^• a woman ought not to baptize. The authors of the Admonition object that necessity of salvation is tied to the sacraments by this means / and that men are confirmed in that old error / that no man can be saved without baptism / which in deed is true. For must it not be thought to be done of necessity / and upon great extremity / for the doing whereof the orders that God hath set (that it should be done in the congregation / & by the minister of the gospel) are broken? Yes verily. And I will further say / that although that the infants which die without baptism should be assuredly damned (which is most false) yet ought not the orders which God hath set in his church / to be broken after this sort. For as the salvation of men ought to be dear unto us: so the glory of God which consisteth in that his orders be kept / ought to be much more dear / that if at any time the controversy could be between his glory and our salvation / our salvation ought to fall that his glory may stand.

Now in the 187. page M. Doctor answereth hereunto / that this implieth no more that the salvation is tied to the sacraments / then when it is taught that infants must be baptized / and not tarry until they come to the age of discretion. Which how truly it is spoken / when as the one hath ground of the scripture / the other hath none / the one approved by the continual / and almost the general practice of the church / the other used in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof / let all men judge. Therefore for so much as the ministry of the word and sacraments go together / & that the ministry of the word may not be committed unto women / and for that this evil custom hath risen first of a false understanding of the scripture / and then of a false conclusion of that untrue understanding (which is / that they cannot be saved which are not baptized) and for that the authors them selves of that error / did never seek no remedy of the mischief in women's or private baptism: And last of all for that if there were any remedy against that mischefe in such kind of baptism / yet it ought not to be used / being against the institution of God & his glory / I conclude that the private baptism / and by women is utterly unlawful. There followeth the private communion which is found fault with / both for the place wherein it is ministered / & for the small number of communicants which are admitted / by the bocke of service. Touching the place before is spoken sufficiently / it reasteth to consider of the number. But before I come to that / I will speak something of the causes & beginning of receiving in houses / & of the ministering of the Communion unto sick folks. It is not to be denied / but that this abuse is very ancient / and was in Justin Martyrs time / in Tertullian's and Cyprians time / even as also there were other abuses crept into the supper of the Lord / and that very gross / as the mingling of water with wine / and therein also a necessity and great mystery placed / as it may appear both by Justin Martyr and Cyprian. Which I therefore by the way do admonish the reader of / that the antiquity of this abuse of private communion / be not prejudicial to the truth / no more then the mingling of water / with that opinion of necessity / that those fathers had of it / is or ought to be prejudicial to that that we use in ministering the cup with pure wine according to the instytution. I say therefore that this abuse was ancient / and rose upon these causes. First of all in the prymitiue church the dyscipline of the church was so severe and so extreme / that if any which professed the truth / and were of the body of the church / did through infirmity deny the truth / & joined him self unto the idolatrous service / although he repenting came again unto the church / yet was he not received to the communion of the Lord's supper anymore. And yet lying in extremity of sickness / and ready to depart this life / if he did require the communion in token that the church had forgiven the fault / and was reconciled altogether unto that person that had so fallen / they granted that he might be partaker of it / as may appear by the story of Serapion. Another cause was that which was before alleged / which is the false opinion which they had conceived / that all those were condemned / that received not the supper of the Lord / & therefore when as those that were (as they called thē cathecumeni) which is young novices in religion never admitted to the supper / or young children fell sick dangerously / they ministered the supper of the Lord unto them / least they should want their voyage victual (as they termed it) which abuse notwithstanding was neither so ancient as the other / nor so general. And there wanted not good men which declared their mislyking / and did decree against both the abuses / & against all manner communicating in private houses. As in the council of * Laodicea it was ordained that neither bishop nor elder should make any oblation / that was / minister any communion in houses. Besides therefore that I have before shown the unlawfulness generally of ministering the sacrament in private places / seeing that the custom of ministering this supper unto the sick / rose upon corrupt causes and rotten foundations / & considering also (God be praised) in these times there are none driven by fear to renounce the truth / whereupon any such excommunication should ensue / which in the extremity of sickness should be mitigated after this sort (for no man now that is in extreme sickness / is cast down or else assaulted with this temptation y ^t he is cut of from the church) I say these things considered / it followeth that this ministering of communion in private houses & to the sick is unlawful / as that which rose upon evil grounds: & if it were lawful / yet that now in these times of peace / & when the sick are not excommunicated / there is no use of it. And so it appeareth / how little the custom of the old church doth help M. Doctor in this point.

And as for that he saith Peter Martyr & Bucer / do allow the communion exhibited to the sick persons / when he showeth that / he shall have answer. For where he saith he hath declared it in another treatise / either y ^e Printer hath left out y ^e treatise / or M. Doc. wonderfully forgetteth him self / or else he meaneth some odd thing / that he hath written / & laid up in some corner of his study. For surely there is no such saying in all his boke before / nor yet after / so far as I can find.

Now remaineth to be spoken of the number of communicants / & that there is fault in the appointing of the service book / not only for that it admitteth in the time of plage / that one with y ^e minister may celebrate the supper of the Lord in the house / but for that it ordayneth a communion in the church / when of a great number which assemble there / it admitteth three or four / the abuse and inconvenience whereof may thus be considered. The holy sacrament of the supper of the Lord / is not only a seal and confirmation of the promises of God unto us / but also a profession of our conjunction / as well with Christ our savior and with God / as also (as S. Paul teacheth) a declaration and profession that we are at one with our brethren: so that it is first a sacrament of the knitting of all the body generally / and of every member particularly with the head / and then of the members of the body one with another. Now therefore seeing that every particular church and body of God's people / is a representation / and as it were a lively portraiture of the whole church and body of Christ / it followeth that that which we cannot do with all the church scattered throughout the whole world (for the distances of places whereby we are severed) we ought to do with that church whereunto God hath raunged us / as much as possibly or conveniently may be. The departing therefore of the rest of the church from those three or four / is an open profession that they have no communion / fellowship / nor unity with them / that do communicate: and likewise of those three or four / that they have none with the rest that join not them selves thereunto: when as both by the many grapes making one cup / and corns making one loaf / that whole church being many parsons / are called as to the unity which they have one with another / and altogether amongst them selves: so to the declaration and profession of it / by receiving one with another / and altogether amongst them selves: And as if so be that we do not celebrate as we may possibly and conveniently / the supper of the Lord / we thereby utter our want of love towards the Lord which hath redeemed us: so if we do not communicate together with the church / so far forth as we may do conveniently / we betray the want of our love that we have one towards another. And therefore S. Paul dryuing hereunto / willeth that one should tarry for another / reprehending that when one preventeth and cometh before another / saying: that that is to take every man his own supper / and not to celebrate the Lord's supper. Not that so many men or women as there came / so many tables were / for that had not been possible in so great assemblies / but that they sorted them selves into certain companyes / and that they came scattering one after another / and that instead of making one supper of the Lord / they did make divers.

These things being considered / the reason which the Admonition useth in the 185. page / where this matter is spoken of / which is / drink you all of this / is not so rydiculous as M. Doctor maketh it. For although that it do neither prove that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessity receive / yet it proveth that as all they which were present / did communicate: And so as many as in the church are fit to receive the sacraments / or may conveniently receive them together / should follow that example in celebrating the supper together. And it is probably to be thought / that if our savior Christ had not been restrained by the law of God touching the passover unto his own family and to as many only as would serve to eat up a Lamb by them selves / that he would have celebrated his supper / amongst other of his disciples and professoures of his doctrine. But for so much as it was meet that he should celebrate his supper there and then / where and when he did celebrate his passover / for the cause before by me alleged / it pleased him to keep his first supper with the fewer / for that the law of communication unto the passover / which was joined with the supper / would not admit any greater number of communicants / then was sufficient to eat up the passover.

And although it be clear and plain / that when it is said drink ye all of this / and tarry one for another / these sayings are meant of that particular congregation or assembly / which assemble themselves together to be taught by one mouth of the minister: yet I have therefore put this caution (as much as may be possyble) least any man should cavil / as though I would have no communion / until all the godly through the world should meet together. Likewise I have put this caution (as much as may be conveniently) for although it be possible / that a perticulare church may communicate at one table in one day and together: yet may the same be inconvenient for divers causes. As if the number should be very great / so that to have them all communicate together / it would require such a long time / as the tarrying out of the whole action / would hazarde either the life / or at least the health of divers there. Agayne / for as much as other some being at the church / it is meet that other should be at home / upon occasion of infantes and such like things / as require the presence of some to tarry at home. In these cases and such like / the inconveniences do deliver us from the gilte of uncharitableness / and forsaking the fellowship of the church / for that we do not here severe our selves / but are by good and just causes severed: which gilte we shall never escape / if beside such necessary causes we pretend those that are not / or having not so much as a pretence / yet notwithstanding separate our selves / as the daily practice thorough out the church doth show.

But it may be objected / that in this point the book of Common prayer is not in fault / which doth not only not forbid that all the church should receive together / but also by a good & godly exhortation moveth those that be present / that they should not depart / but communicate altogether. It is true that it doth not forbid / and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose / but that (I say) is not enough / for neither should it suffer that three or four should have a communion by them selves (so many being in the church meet to receive / and to whom the supper of the Lord doth of right appertain) & it ought to provide / that those which would withdraw them selves / should be by Ecclesiastical discipline / at all times / and now also under a godly Prince by civil punishment brought to communicate with their brethren. And this is the law of God / and this is now and hath been heretofore the practice of churches reformed. All men understand that the passover was a figure of the Lord's supper / and that there should be as straight bonds to bind men to celebrate the remembrance of our spiritual deliverance / as there was to remember the deliverance out of Egypt. But whosoever did not then communicate with the rest at that time / when the passover was eaten / was excommunicated / as it may appear in the boke of Numbers / where he saith / that whosoever did not communicate being clean / his soul should be cut off from amongst the people of God. Therefore this neglect / or contempt rather of the Lord's supper / ought to be punished with no les punishment / especially when as (after the church hath proceeded in that order which our savior Christ appointeth of admonishing) they be not sory for their fault / and promise amendment. And that this was the custom of the churches / it may appear by the. 9. of those canons / which are fathered of the apostles / where it is decreed that all the faithful that entered into the congregation / and heard the scriptures red / and did not tarry out the prayers & the holy Communion / should be as those which were causers of disorders in the church / separated from the church / (or as it is translated of another) deprived of the Communion. Also in the council of Braccara it was decreed / that if any entering into the church of God / heard the Scriptures / and afterward of wantonness or losenes / withdrew him self from the communion of the sacrament / and so brake the rule of discipline in the reverend sacraments / should be put out of the church / till such time as he had by good fruits declared his repentance.

But here also may rise another doubt of the former words of Moses in the boke of Numbers / for seeing that he maketh this exception (if they be clean) it may be said / that those that depart / do not fele themselves mete to receive / and therefore depart / the other .iii. or .iv. or moe / feel themselves meet and disposed for that purpose: whereupon it may seem that it is neither reason to compel those to come / which feel not themselves meet / nor to reject them that feel that good disposition and preparation in themselves. For answer whereunto / we must understand that the uncleanness which Moses speaketh of / was such as men could not easily avoid / and whereunto they might fall sometimes by necessary duty / as by handling their dead / which they were by the rule of charitye bound to burye / sometimes by touching at unawares a dead body / or by sitting in the place where some unclean body had sitten / or by touching such things which the law judged unclean / which thing cannot be alleged in those that are now of the church. For as many as be of it / and withal of such discretion as are able to prove and examine themselves / can have no excuse at all / if they may be at the church / to withdraw themselves from the holy supper of the Lord. For if they will say that they be not meet / it may be answered unto them / that it is their own fault: and further / if they be not meet to receive the holy sacrament of the supper / they are not meet to hear the word of God / they are not meet to be partakers of the prayers of the church / and if they be for one / they are also for the other. For with that boldness / and with that duty or lawfulness (I speak of those which are of the church / and of discretion to examine themselves) I say with what lawfulness they may offer themselves to the prayers / and to the hearing of the word of God / they may also offer themselves unto the Lord's supper. And to whomsoever of thē the Lord will communicate himself by preaching the word / unto the same he will not refuse to communicate himself by receiving of the sacraments. For whosoever is of God's household and family / he need not be afraid to come to the Lord's table / nor dout but that the Lord will feed him there: and whatsoever he be that is a member of the body of Christ / may be assured that he receiveth life frō Christ the head as well by the arteries & condints of the supper of the Lord / as by the preaching of the word of God. So that it must needs follow / that the not receiving of those which depart out of the church / whē there is any communion celebrated / proceedeth either of vain and superstitious fear / growing of gross ignorance of themselves and of the holy sacraments: or else of an intolerable negligence or rather contempt / of the which neither the one nor the other should be either borne with or nourished / either by permitting .iii. or .iv. to communicate alone / or else in letting them which depart / go so easily away with so great a fault / which ought to be severely punished. And upon this either contempt or superstitious fear drawn from the papists Lenton preparation of. 40. days / eareshrift / displing. &c. it cometh to pas / that men receiving the supper of the Lord but seldom / when they fall sick must have the supper ministered unto them in their houses / which otherwise being once every week received before / should not brede any such unquietness in thē / when they cannot come to receive it. Although as I have before shown / if they had never received it before / yet that private receiving were not at any hand to be suffered. And thus having declared what I think to be faulty in the communion boke in this point / and the reasons why / and with all answered to that which either M. doctor allegeth in this place of the. 80. and. 81. and likewise in the. 152. &. 185. pages touching this matter / I come now unto that which is called the Jewish purifying by the admonition / and by the service boke afore time the purification of women.

Now to the churching of women / in the which title yet kept / there seemeth to be hid a great part of the Jewish purification. For like as in the old law she that had brought forth a child / was holden unclean / until such time as she came to the temple to show her self after she had brought forth a man or a woman: so this term of churching of her / canseme to import nothing else / thē a banishment / & (as it were) a certain excommunication from the church / during the space y ^t is between the time of her delivery / & of her coming unto y ^• church. For what doth else this churching imply / but a restoring her unto y ^• church / which cā not be w ^t out some bar or shutting forth presupposed. It is also called y ^e thanks giving / but the principal title which is the directory of this part of the Liturgy / & placed in the top of the leaf / as y ^e which the translator best liked of is (churching of women.) To pas by y ^e / that it will have thē come as nigh the communion table as may be / as they came before to y ^• high altare (because I had spoken once generally against such ceremonies) y ^• of all other is most Jewish / & approacheth nerest unto the Jewish purification / y ^• she is commanded to offer accustomed offerings. Wherein besides that / the very word offering carrieth w ^t it a strong sent & suspitiō of a sacrifice (especially being uttered simply w ^t out any addition / it cannot be w ^t out danger / that the boke maketh the custom of y ^e popish church (which was so corrupt) to be y ^e rule & measure of this offering. And although the meaning of the boke is not / y ^e it should be any offering for sin / yet this manner of speaking may be a stumbling stock in the way of y ^• ignorant & simple / & the wicked & obstinate thereby are confirmed & hardened in their corruptions. The best which can be answered in this case is / y ^e it is for y ^e relief of y ^e minister / but thē it should be remembered / first that the minister liveth not anymore of offerings. Secondarily / y ^t the payment of the ministers wages is not so convenient either in the church or before all the people. And thirdly / y ^• thereby we fall into y ^• fault which we condemn in popery / & that is / y ^• besides the ordinary living appointed for the service of the priests in y ^e who • e / they toke for their several services of mass / baptism / burying / churching. &c. several rewards / which thing being of y ^e service boke well abolished in certain other things / I cannot see what good cause there should be / to retain it in this and certain other. Now whereas m. D. saith y ^t the place of the. 15. of the Acts alleged by the admonition / maketh nothing against this / he should have considered / that if it be a Jewish ceremony (as they suppose it / ) it is to be abolished utterly. For it being shown there y ^e all the ceremonial law of Moses is don away through our savior Christ / this also a part thereof must needs be therein comprised. And whereas he saith / that it being nothing else but a thanks giving for her deliverance / cannot be therefore but Christian & very godly / I answer y ^e if there should be solemn and express giving of thanks in the church for every benefit / either equal or greater thē this / which any singular person in the church doth receive / we should not only have no preaching of the word / nor ministering of the sacraments / but we should not have so much leisure as to do any corporal or bodily work / but should be like unto those heretics / which wer called of the Syriac word Messalians, or continual prayers / & which did nothing else but pray. For the Psalm. 121. spoken of in the 155. page / it being shown that it is not meet to have any such solemn thanks giving / it is needeles to debate of the Psalm / wherewith the thanks giving should be made. And whereas in. 101. and. 102. pages unto the admonition / objecting that the coming in the veil to the church more then / thē at other times / is a token of shame or some folly committed / M. D. iestingly leaveth the matter to the womens answer. A little true knowledge of divinity would have taught him / that the bringing in or usurping without authority any ceremony in the congregation / is both an earnester matter / then may be jested at / and a weightier then should be permitted unto the discretion of every woman / considering that the same hath been so horribly abused in time of poperye.

The holy days follow / of which M. Doctor saith / that so they be not used superstitiously or unprofitably they may be commanded. I have shown before / that they were. If they were so indifferent as they are made / yet being kept of the papists which are the enemies of God / they ought to be abolished. And if it were as easy a matter to pull out the superstition of the observing of those holy-days out of men's hearts / as it is to protest and to teache that they are not commanded for any religion to be put in them / or for any to make conscience of the observing of them / as though there weresome necessary worship of God in the keeping of them: then were they much more tolerable. But when as the continuance of them doth norishe wicked superstition in the minds of men / and that the doctrine which should remedy the superstition through the fewnes & skarcitye of able ministers / cannot come to the most part of them which are infected with this disease / and that also where it is preached / the fruit thereof is in part hindered / whilst the common people attend oftentimes rather to that which is done / thē to that which is taught / being a thing indifferent (as it is said) it ought to be abolyshed / as that which is not only not fittest to hold the people in the sincere worshypping of God / but also as that which keepeth them in their former blindness and corrupt opinions which they have conceived of such holy days. And if they had been never abused neither by the Papists nor by the Jews (as they have been and are daily) yet such making of holy days is never without some great danger of bringing in some evil and corrupt opinions into the minds of men. I will use an example in one / and that the chief of holy days / & most generally & of longest time observed in y ^e church / which is the feast of Easter / which was kept of some more days of some fewer. How many thousands are there / I will not say of the ignorant papists / but of those also which profess the gospel / which when they have celebrated those days w ^t dilygent heed taken unto their life / and with some earnest devotion in praying and hearing the word of God / do not by and by think / that they have well celebrated the feast of Easter / and yet have they thus notably deceived them selves. For S. Paul teacheth that the celebrating of the feast of the Christians Easter / is not as the Jews Easter was / for certain days / but showeth that we must keep this feast all the days of our life in the unleavened bread of sincerity and of truth. By which we see that the observing of the feast of Easter for certain days in the year / doth pul out of our minds or ever we be aware / the doctrine of the gospel / and causeth us to rest in that near consideration of our duties for the space of a few days / which should be extended to alour life. But besides the incommodities that rise of making such holy days / and continuing of those which are so horribly abused / where it is confessed that they are not necessary: besides this / I say the matter is not so indifferent as it is made. I confess that it is in the power of the church to appoint so many days in the week or in the year (in the which the congregation shall assemble to hear the word of God / and receive the sacraments / and offer up prayers unto God) as it shall think good according to those rules which are before alleged. But y ^• it hath power to make so many holy days (as we have) wherein no man may work any parte of the day / and wherein men are commanded to cease from their daily vocations of plowing and exercising their handy crafts. &c. that I deny to be in the power of the church. For proof whereof I will take the fourth commandment / and no other interpretation of it / then M. doctor alloweth of in the. 174. page / which is / that God licenseth / and leaveth it at the liberty of every man to work six days in the week / so that he rest the seventh day. Seeing that therefore that the Lord hath left it to all men at liberty / that they might labor (if they think good) six days: I say the church nor no man can take this liberty away from them / and drive them to a necessary rest of the body. And if it be lawful to abridge the liberty of the church in this point / and instead that the Lord saith six days thou mayst labor if thou wilt / to say thou shalt not labor six days: I do not see why the church may not as well / whereas the Lord saith thou shalt rest the seventh day / command that thou shalt not rest the seventh day. For if the church may restrain the liberty that God hath given thē / it may take away the yoke also that God hath put upon them.

And whereas you say in the. 173. page / that notwithstanding this fourth commandment / the Jews had certain other feasts which they observed: in deed the Lord which gave this general law / might make as many exceptions as he thought good / and so long as he thought good. But it followeth not because the Lord did it / that therefore the church may do it / unless it hath commandment and authority from God so to do. As when there is any general plague or judgment of God either upon the church / or coming towards it / the Lord commandeth in such a case that they should sanctify a general fast / and proclaim ghnatsarah, which signifieth a prohibition or forbidding of ordinary works / and is the same Hebrew word wherewith those feasts days are noted in the law wherein they should rest. The reason of which commandment of the Lord was / that as they abstained that day as much as might be conveniently from meat / so they might abstain from their daily works / to the ende they might bestow the whole day in hearing the word of God / and humbling themselves in the congregation / confessing their faults / and desiring the Lord to turn away from his fierce wrath. In this case the church having commandment to make a holy day / may and ought to do it / as the church which was in Babylon did / during the time of their captivity: but where it is destitute of a commandment / it may not presume by any decree to restrain that liberty which the Lord hath given.

Now that I have spoken generally of holy days / I come unto the apostles and other saints days / which are kept with us. And though it were lawful for the church to ordain holy days to our savior Christ or to the blessed Trinity: yet it is not therefore lawful to institute holy days to the apostles and other saints / or to their remembrance. For although I confess as much as you say in the. 153. page / that the church of England doth not mean by this keeping of holy days that the saints should be honored / or as you allege in the. 175. and. 176. pages / that with us the saints are not prayed unto / or that it doth propound them as meritorious / yet that is not enough. For as we reason against the popish purgatory / that it is therefore naught / for as much as neither in the old Testament nor in the new / there is any mention of prayer at any time for the dead: so may it be reasoned against these holy days ordained for the remembrance of the saints / that for so much as the old people did never keep any feast or holy day for the remembrance either of Moses or Daniel / or Job / or Abraham / or David / or any other / how holy or excellent so ever they were: nor the apostles nor the churches in their time never instituted any either to keep the remembrance of Stephen / or of the virgin Mary / or of John the Baptist / or of any other notable and rare personage / that the instituting and erecting of them now / and this attempt by the churches which followed / which have not such certain and undoubted interpreaters of the will of God / as the prophets and apostles were which lived in those churches / is not without some note of presumption / for that it undertaketh those things which the primitive church in the apostles times (having greater gifts of the spirit of God then they that followed them had) durst not venter upon.

Moreover I have shown before / what force the name of every thing hath to cause men to think so of every thing / as it is named / and therefore although you say in the. 175. page that in calling these holy days the days of such or such a Sainte / there is nothing else meant but that the Scriptures which are that day red / concern that saynte / and contain either his calling / preaching / persecution / martyrdom. &c. yet everyone doth not understand so much. For besides that the corrupt custom of popery hath carried their minds to another interpretation / the very name and appellation of the day teacheth otherwise. For seeing that the days dedicated to the Trinity / and those that are consecrate to our savior Christ / are in that they be called Trinity day or the Nativity day of our savior Christ / by and by taken to be instituted to the honor of our savior Christ and of the Trinity: so likewise the people / when it is called S. Paul's day / or the blessed virgin Mary's day / can understand nothing thereby / but that they are instituted to the honor of S. Paul or of the virgin Mary / unless they be otherwise taught. And if you say let them so be taught / I have answered that the teaching in this lande cannot by any order which is yet taken come to the moste parte of those / which have drunk this poison: and where it is taught / it were good that the names were abolyshed / that they should not help to vnteach that / which the preaching teacheth in this behalf.

Furthermore / seeing the holy days be ceremonies of the church / I see not why we may not here renew Augustine's complaint / y ^t the estate of the Jews was more tolerable then ours is (I speak in this point of holy days) for if their holy days and ours be accounted / we shall be found to have more then double as many holy days as they had. And as for all the commodityes which we receive by them / whereby M. doctor goeth about to prove the goodness and lawfulness of their institution / as that the scriptures are there red and expounded / the patience of those saints in their persecution and Martyrdom is to the edifying of the church remembered / and yearly renewed: I say / that we might have all those commodities without all those dangers which I have spoken of / & without any keeping of yearly memory of those saints / and (as it falleth out) in better and more profitable sort. For as I said before of the keeping of Easter / that it tieth / and (as it were) fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a few days / which should reach to all our age and time of our life: so those celebrations of the memories of saints and martyrs / straighten our consideration of them unto those days / which should continually be thought of / & daily as long as we live. And if that it be thought so good and profitable a thing that this remembrance of them should be upon those days / wherein they are supposed to have died / yet it followeth not therefore that after this remembrance is celebrated by hearing the scriptures concerning them / and prayers made to follow their constancy / that all the rest of the day should be kept holy in such sort / as men should be debarred of their bodily labors / and of exercising their daily vocations.

Now where as master Doctor citeth Augustine and Jerome / to prove that in the Churches in their times / there were holy days kept besides the Lord's day / he might have also cited Ignatius and Tertullian / and Cyprian / which are of greater auncienty / and would have made more for the credit of his cause / seeing he measureth all his truth almost through the whole book / by the crooked measure and yarde of time. For it is not to be denied / but this keeping of holy days (especially of the Easter and Pentecost) are very ancient / and that these holy days for the remembrance of Martyrs / were used of long time. But these abuses were no auncienter then other were / groser also then this was / as I have before declared / and were easy further to be shown / if need required. And therefore I appeal from these examples to the scriptures / and to the examples of the perfectest church that ever was / which was that in the apostles times. And yet also I have to say / that the observation of those feasts first of all / was much better then of later times. For Socrates (confessing / that neither our savior Christ nor the apostles / did decree or institute any holy days / or lay any yoke of bondage upon the necks of those which came to the preaching) addeth further / that they did use first to observe the holy days by custom / and that as every man was disposed at home. Whych thing if it had remained in that freedom / that it was done by custom / and not by commandment / at the will of everyone / and not by constraint / it had been much better then it is now / and had not drawn such dangers upon the posteritye / as did after ensue / and we have the experience of.

As touching M. Bucer's / M. Bullingers & Illiricus allowance of them / if they mean such a celebration of them / as that in those days the people may be assembled and those partes of the scriptures which concern them whose remembrance is solemnised / red / and expounded / and yet men not debarred after from their daily works / it is so much the les matter: if otherwise / that good leave they give the churches to dissent from them in that point / I do take it granted unto me / being by the grace of God one of the church.

Althoughe as touching M. Bullenger it is to be observed / since the time that he wrote that upon the Romaines / there are about .xxxv. years / sythens which time although he hold still that the feasts dedicated unto the Lord (as of the Nativity / Easter / and Pentecost) may be kept / yet he denieth flatly that it is lawful to keep holy the days of the apostles / as it appeareth in the confession of the Tigurine church joined with others.

As for M. Calvin / as the practice of him and the church where he lived was and is / to admit no one holy day besides the Lord's day: so can it not be shown out of any parte of his works (as I think) that he approved those holy days / which are now in question. He saith in deed in his Institution: that he will not condemn those churches which use them: No more do we the church of England / neither in this nor in other things / which are mere to be reformed. For it is one thing to mislike / another thing to condemn / and it is one thing to condemn something in the church / and another thing to condemn the church for it. And as for the places cited out of the epistles to the Galatians and Collossians / there is no mention of any holy days / either to saints or to any other. And it appeareth also that he defendeth not other churches / but the church of Geneva / and answereth not to those which object against the keeping of saints days or any holy days (as they are called) besides the Lord's day / but against those which would not have the Lord's day kept still / as a day of rest from bodily labor / as it may appear both by his place upon the Collossians / and especially in that which is alleged out of his Institutions. And that he meaneth nothing les then such holy days / as you take upon you to defend / it may appear first in the place of the Colossians / where he saith that the days of rest which are used of them / are used for policy sake. Now it is well known / that as it is policy and a way to preserve the estate of things / and to keep thē in a good continuance and succes / that as well the beasts as the men which labor six days should rest the seventh: so it tendeth to no policy nor wealth of the people or preservation of good order / that there should be so many days / wherein men should cease from work / being a thing which breedeth idleness / and consequently poverty / besides other disorders and vices / which always go in company with idleness. And in the place of his Institutions he declareth him self yet more plainly / when he saith / that those odd holy days then are without superstition / when they be ordained only for the observing of discipline and order. Whereby he giveth to understand / that he would have them no further holy days / then for the time which is bestowed in the exercise of the discipline and order of the church / and that for the rest / they should be altogether / as other days / free to be labored in. And so it appeareth / that the holy days ascribed to Saints by the service book / is a just cause why a man cannot safely without exception subscribe unto the service.

Now whereas master Doctor saith / it maketh no matter whether these things be taken out of the Portuis / so they be good. &c. I have proved first they are not good / then if they were / yet being not necessary / & abused horribly by the papists / other being as good / and better then they / ought not to remain in the church. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whom so ever it be said / is of the holy ghost: it I were disposed to move questions / I could demand of him which careth not of whom he have the truth / so he have it / what our savior Christ meant to refuse the testimony of Devils / when they gave a clear testimony that he was the son of God / and the holy one: and what S. Paul meant to be angry / and to take it so grievously / that the Pithonisse said / he and his companion were the servants of the high God / which preached unto them the way of salvation. Here was truth / and yet rejected / and I would know whether master Doctor would say that these spake by the spirit of God. Thus whilst without all judgment he snatcheth here a sentence / and there another out of the Doctors / and that of the worst / as if a man should of purpose choose out the dross / and leave the silver: within a while he will make no great difference / not only between the prophets and apostles / and profane writers / as Aristotle and Plato / but not between them / which speak not by the conduite and leading of the holy ghost / but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirit.

The reply unto the next section in the. 82. and. 83. and. 84. page.

HEre master doctor would fain (as it seemeth) if he durst / interpreat diligent preaching / and preaching in season / and out of scafon / to be preaching once a monthe. But because he dare not say so directly / he compasseth it about / and first putteth y ^e case of one preaching twice a day verbally / and w ^t small substance of 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 matter / and of another preaching but once in a monthe / and doth it pithily and orderly and discretely / and concludeth that such a sermon once in a month / is nearer the mind of the Apostle / then all those other sermons made twice every day: & yet the case is not so clear / as he maketh it. For granting that those (which he calleth verbal sermons) have some goodness and edifying / it must be very simple and slender meat / which is not better being given every day / then the best and daintiest meat once only in a month. For with the one / a man may live although he be not liking / with the other he being once fed / is afterward famyshed. But howe if the case be put / that the monthly and long labored sermons (as they are called) have as little and les good wholesome doctrine in them / then the sermons which are preached every day. Assuredly for the most of those that go so long with a Sermon / and which I know / and have heard: when they come to bring it forth / bryngforthe oftentimes more wind and unprofitable matter / then any good and timely fruit / or wholesome substantial doctrine. And no marvel / for therein the word of God is fulfilled / which declareth that the talents of God's gifts and grace are increased by continual use and laying out of them / and of the other side diminished / and in the end taken quite away / when as they are suffered to lie so long rusting / and as it were digged in the ground.

And here master Doctor taketh occasion to utter his stomach against London / flinging of one side against the women / of the other side against the ministers / whose dilygence because it maketh master Doctors negligence more to appear / as a dark and duskishe color matched with that which is clear and lightsome / he doth go about to deface / with the untrue and flaunderous surmise / of lose neglygent and unprofitable preaching. If there be someone such or two in London / it is too great injury therefore to charge indefinitely the company of the ministers of London. Besides that M. Doctor doth not see / howe first he accuseth the bishop or ever he be aware / both in ordaining such ministers / and not in reforming them / being so far out of order / and then the archbishop / which doth not require this disorder at the bishops hand / since as (he saith) this is so goodly and heavenly an order / to have one bishop over many ministers / and one archbishop over diverse bishops. And if we shall esteem the pithynes and fastnes of preaching / by the fruits / as by the knowledge and fear of God in the people of London / and by faithful and true hearts towards the prince and the realm: I think that that which he termeth frivolous / lose / and unprofitable preaching will fall out to be weightier / and to leave a deeper printe behind them / then those monthly sermons which he speaketh of: and the ministers of London better ministers which preach twice a day / then those which make the word of God novel and dainties / and as M. Latimer pleasantly said / strawberies coming only at certain times in the year.

Of this thing M. Doctor speaketh again in the. 167. page / but to this effect altogether / and almost in the same words. To the next section being the rest of the. 84. page / I mind to say nothing / having before spoken of the faults of the ceremonies and rites which are used with us.

The reply unto the next section contained in. 86. 87. and. 88. pages.

AFter a number of words without matter / sayings without proofs / accusations without any grounds or likelihood of grounds / as that they be instruments of greedy guts and lustye roysters / to maintain them in their iolitye / which notwithstanding speak against patronages / and would have the lyuings of the church / which are idly and unprofitably spent (for the most part) applied to the right uses of the pore / and of ministers and scholars / & that they would be discharged from eyuill and ecclesiastical subjection / which humbly submitting them selves to the Queens majesty and all those that are sent of her / would deliver the churches and them selves for the churches sake / from the unlawful dominion of one / to the ende that they might yield them selves with their churches subject to the lawful ecclesiastical government of those which God hath appointed in his word: After I say a number of such and like accusations mixed with most bitter and reproachful words unto all which / it is suffitient answer / that quod Verbo dictum est, Verbo sit negatum. As easily denied as said. He turneth him self to those that be in authority / whom he would make believe that it standeth upon the overthrow of the church / of religion / of order / of the realm / and of the estate of Princes and magistrates / which are by this means established / & whose estates are made this way most sure / when as y ^• true causes of these clamoures and outcries that M. Doctor maketh / is nothing else but the fear of the overthrow of that honor / which is to the dishonor of God and ignominy of his church / and the establishing of that which maketh to the good dispensing of those goods for the aid and help of the church / which now serve to oppress it. As for the court of faculties / the corruptions thereof being so clear / that all men see them / and so gross / that they which cannot see may grope them: M. Doctor answereth / that he knoweth not what it meaneth / and therefore is moved of modesty to think the best of it / which is but a simple shift. For besides that the Admonition speaketh nothing of it / but that the streets and high ways talk of: if there had been any defense for it / it is not to be thought that M. Doctor would have been so neglygent an advocate / as to have omitted it / seeing if he were ignorant / he might have had so easily and with so little cost the knowledge of it. As for his modesty / his bold asseveration of things which are doubtful / which are false / which are altogether unlikely / which are impossible for him to know / doth suffyciently bewray and make so well known / that no such visard or painting can serve to make men believe / that mere modesty shut up his mouth from speaking for the court of faculties / which hath opened his mouth so wyde for the defense of those things / wherein (as it falleth out) he hath declared himself to have less skill and understanding / then he hath of that court.

The reply unto the next section in the. 89. 90. 91. 92. 93. pages.

WHereas unto the Admonition proving out of the third of S. Matthew / that preaching must go before the ministering of the sacraments / you answer first / that it is against all Logic to conclude a general rule upon a particular example: you shall understand that that which John did in that point / he did it not as a singular person or as the son of yacharie / but as the minister of the gospel / and therefore it appertaineth as well to all other ministers as unto him. For as it is a good conclusion / that for so much as Peter in that he is a man / is borne to have / and by common course of nature hath two legs / therefore John and Thomas and all the rest have so: even so for so much as John by reason of his ministry had need first to preach / then to baptize / it followeth / that all others that have that ministry committed unto them must do the like. Secondarely you say / that it doth not appear that he preached immediately before he baptized them with water. And yet S. Matthew after that he had shown that he preached repentance (which the other Evangelists call the baptism of repentance) he addeth that then the people were baptized of him / which also may appear in the Acts / where S. Paul noteth this order to have been kept. For although between the story of his preaching and that which is said of his baptising / there is interlaced a description of his diet and of his apparel / yet these words (then came unto him. &c.) must needs be referred unto the time which followed his preaching. And where as you say / that it is manifest that our savior Christ was baptized without preaching: I would know of you what one word doth declare that / when as the contrary rather doth appear in S. Luke / which seemeth to note plainly that our savior Christ was baptized / when the people were baptized. But the people (as I have shown) were baptized immediately after they heard John preach / therefore it is like / that our savior Christ was baptized / after that he had heard John preach. And it is very probable / that our savior Christ which did honor the ministry of God by the hand of men so far / as he would vouchsafe to be baptized of John / would not neglect or pass by his ministry of the word / being more precious then that of the sacrament / as it appeareth by John that our savior Christ was present at his sermons / for so much as S. John doth as he was preaching to the people point him out with the finger / and told them that he was in the midst of them which was greater then he. And there is no doubt / but those words which our savior Christ said before his supper / although they are gathered by the Evangelists into short sentences / were notwithstanding long sermons / touching the fruit of his death and use and ende of that sacrament. And this order of preaching immedyatly before the ministering of the sacraments / is continually noted of S. Luke throughout the whole story of the Acts of the Apostles. But I will not precisely say neither yet do the authors of the Admonition affirm (as M. Doctor surmyseth of them) that there must be preaching immediately before the admynistration of the sacraments. Thys I say / that when as the life of the sacraments dependeth of the preaching of the word of God / there must of necessity the word of God be / not red but preached unto the people / amongst whom the sacraments are ministered. And forasmuch as I have proved before / that no man may minister the sacraments but he which is able to preach the word / although I dare not affirm / that there is an absolute necessity / that the word should be preached immediately before the sacraments be ministered / yet I can imagine no case / wherein it is either meet or convenient or else almost sufferable / that the sacraments should be ministered without a sermon before them / for the minister being as he ought of necessity to be / able to preach / ought so to do. And if it be said that his health or voice will not serve him sometimes to preach / when he is able enough to minister the sacraments: I say that either he ought to beg the help of another minister hard by / or else there is less inconvenience in deferring the celebration of the sacrament until he be strong enough to preach / then ministering it so maymedly and without a sermon / whereby it is seen / how just cause M. Doctor hath to cal these blind and unlearned gatherings / which he with his Egles eye and his great learning cannot scatter / nor once move.

After this M. Doctor accuseth the authors of the Admonition / as though they simply condemned reading the scriptures in the church / and this accusation he followeth in many words and in dyners places / wherein as in a number of other places of their book the authors of the Admonition have cause to renew that old complaint of Theodorus / which is / that whensoever anything is said that is unpleasant / that is by and by expounded otherwise then it is meant of him that speaketh it: so that that which is given with the right hand / is received with the left. For the authors of the Admonition declaring their utter mislyking that there should be instead of a preaching minister a reading minister (if I may so call him) and instead of preaching / reading / are untruly expounded of M. doctor / as though they condemned all reading in the church. And here he maketh him self work / & picketh a quarrel to blot a great deal of paper / & to prove that which no man denieth / for besides this treatise he speaketh afterward of it in half a score pages / even from the. 159. page until the. 1 • 0. page / and so lighteth us a candle at noon days. It is a token of a nature disposed to no great quietness / which rather then he would not strive / striveth with him self. And although the cause be just and good which he defendeth / yet I will note in a word or two / how as though there were pitch or some worse thing in his hands / he defyleth whatsoever he toucheth. First therefore he asketh / and so / that he doth most boldly and confidently affirm it / whether the word of God is not as effectual when it is red / as when it is preached / or whether reading be not preaching. In which two questions / although the one of them confuteth the other (for so much as if reading be preaching (as he saith) then the comparyson of the profit and efficacy between one and the other / is absurd) yet I will answer to both. I say therefore that the word of God is not so effectual red as preached. For S. Paul saith / that faith cometh by hearing / & hearing of the word preached / so that the ordinary and especial means to work faith by / is preaching and not reading. And although reading do help to nourish the faith which cometh by preaching / yet this is given to the preaching cath exochen, that is by excellency / and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary means / to work by / in y ^e hearts of the hearers. The beholding of the creatures / & the consideration of the making of the world and of God's wisdom / and wonderful love appearing in them / doth nourish and strengthen faith / and yet may it not therefore in efficacy be compared to the preaching of the word of God. And to know that the word of God preached / hath more force and is more effectual then when it is red / it is to be observed whereunto the preaching is compared. It is called a lifting or heauing up of our savior Christ. Lyke unto the displaying of a banner / as the serpent was lift up in the wilderness. As therefore that which is lyfted up on high / is better and easelyer seen of a great company / then when it standeth or lieth upon the ground or in some valley or low place: so the preaching of the gospel doth offer sooner and easlyer the truth thereof unto the faith (which is the eye of the hearer) then when it is red. The same also may be said in that the preaching is called a cutting of the word of God / for as when the meat is cut and shred / it nourisheth more then when it is not so / so likewise it is in preaching and reading. And that which is brought by the authors of the Admonition / and so scornfully hurled away of Master Doctor / that S. Paul compareth the preaching unto planting and watering / is a very notable place to prove that there is no salvation / without preaching. For as the husbandman receiveth no fruit / unless he both plant and water that which is planted: even so there is no salvation to be looked for / where there is no preaching. And to this also may be well referred that the preaching is called of Saint Luke an opening of the scriptures whereby it is declared / that they be as it were shut / or clasped / or sealed up until such time as they be by exposition and declaration of them opened. It may be that God doth sometimes work faith by reading only / especially where preaching cannot be / and so he doth sometimes without reading by a wonderful work of his spirit: but the ordinary ways whereby God regenerateth his children / is by the word of God / which is preached. And therefore Solomon saith / that where Prophesy (which is not a bare reading / but an exposytion and applycation of the scriptures) faileth / there the people pearyshe. It is true / the word both preached and red / is all one / as the fire covered with ashes / is the same when it is discovered. But • s when the fire is stirred up and discovered / it giveth more heat then when it is not: so the word of God by preaching and interpreating (as it were stirred up & blown) maketh a greater flame in the harts of the hearers / then when it is red. The reason whereof is not in the word / which is all one red & preached / but in y ^• •• pleaseth the Lord to work more effectually with the one / then with the other / thereby approving and authorysing that means and ways / which he especially ordained for us to be saved by.

Of infinite examples take one of the Enuche / which although he had been at Jerusalem / and returning home / was reading of the Prophet Isaiah / yet he believed not / until Phillip came and preached unto him / which I neither say to disallow reading of the scripture (which is very profitable) nor yet to strengthen the hands of the papists / which to banyshe the reading of the scriptures / object the hardness and difficulty of the scriptures / as M. Doctor doth most slanderously & unbrotherly surmise of the authors of the Admonition: but that it may appear / what a gross and a palpable error this is / that the reading of the scripture should be as effectual as the preaching of it / which God hath appointed to be the especial and singular means to save those / whom he hath appointed to salvation. And what is this else but to condemn the wisdom of God in ordaining pastors and doctors to be continual functions in the churches: and in so carefully commending them unto the church of the which notwithstanding there is no use / if reading be as good as preaching. And although this be very gross / yet in the. 163. page where he goeth about to show the profit of reading the scriptures in the church / he is yet more absurd. For there he saith / that it may be / that some men be more edifyed by the simple reading of the scriptures / then by sermons. In deed if a man sleep the sermon time / and wake the reading time / or be otherwise deaf at the one and attentife and heedye at the other / I will not deny / but he may be more edifyed at the simple reading / then at the sermon / unless it be in this and such like case / I know not how it may be tute that M. Doctor saith. And in deed it is as much to say that it may be / that the means that God hath ordained to be the fittest and meetest to call men to salvation / is not the fittest & meetest means / which a man should not once so much as think of / without trembling and shaking every ioynte of him. And now I think by this time M. Doctor knoweth his answer to his second question / which is whether reading / be not preaching. And if this be not sufficient that I have said / I would ask gladly of him / whether all readers be preachers / and whether whosoever readeth / preacheth: for if it be true (which he saith) that reading is preaching / then that is likewise true / that all those which read preach / and so a child of 4. or 5. years old / is able to preach / because he is able to read. And least he should seem to be thus evil advised without some reason / in the. 159. page he asketh whether (if a man write his sermon / & after read it in the boke) that reading be preaching. Here is hard shift. What if I granted that it is preaching / yet I deny that therefore he that readeth another man's sermon preacheth: and further I say / that if there be any such / as being able to preach for his knowledge / yet for fault either of utterance or memory cannot do it but by reading / that which he hath written: it is not conuenyent / that he should be a minister in the church. For S. Paul doth not require only that the bishop or minister should be learned in the mysteries of the gospel / & such a one as is able to set down in writing in his study the sense of the scripture / but one which is apt and fit to teach. And the Prophet Malachi showeth / that he must have the law not in his papers / but in his lips / noting thereby / that it is necessary to have the gift of utterance / and Isaiah the Prophet saying that God had given him the tongue of the learned / doth thereby declare / that it is not sufficient that he be well instructed in the mystery of salvation / but that he have also the gift of utterance. Afterwarde M. Doctor asketh whether S. Paul did not preach to the Romaines when he wrote unto them. No forsooth his writing to the Romaines was no more preaching / then S. Paul's hand or his pen / which were his instruments to write with / were his tongue / or his lyghtes / or any other partes / which were his instruments to speak with. And S. Paul him self writing to the Romaines / putteth a difference between his writing & his preaching / when although he wrote unto them / yet he excuseth him self that he could not come to preach unto them / saying that he was ready as much as lay in him to preach unto them. But saith he / was not the reading of Deuteronomy preaching? No more then the reading of Erodus. Here be good proofs. It is generally denied / that reading is preaching / and Mayster Doctoure without any proof / taketh it for granted / that the reading of Deuteronomy is preaching. All men see / how pityfull reasons these be. And in the. 162. page he alledgeth that in the Acts S. Luke seemeth to mean by reading preaching. But what dealing is this / upon a seeming and conjecture / to set down so certainly and undoubtedly / that reading is preaching / & then there is no one letter nor syllable that upholdeth any such conjecture. For S. James saith that Moses (meaning the law) red every Saboth through out every town in the synagogue / was also preached / or had those that preached it / setting forth the order which was used in all the churches amongst the people of God: that always when they met upon the Saboth days / they had the scriptures first red / and then preached of and expounded / which is that the authors of the Admonition do desire / and therefore complain for that after reading followeth no preaching / which any indifferent man may easily understand by that that they say: In the old time the word was preached / now it is supposed to be sufficient if it be red.

But Mayster Doctor heareth with his left ear / and readeth with his left eye / as though his right eye were pulled out / or his right care cut of. For otherwise the other words which they have touching this matter / might easily have been expounded by the argument & matter which they handle. Of ministering of the sacraments in private places & by women / I have spoken before / there remaineth therefore only in this section / to speak of the deacons / that they ought not to minister the sacrament. Which although I have done partly before / & partly afterward will do / when I shall show that it appertaineth not to them to minister the word / and therefore not the sacraments (being things the ministry whereof ought not to be severed) yet I will in a word answer those arguments that M. Doctor bringeth for to prove that they may minister the sacraments. Whereof the first is / that Phillip in the. 8. of the Acts baptized. There is great doubt amongst writers / which Phillip that was that S. Luke mentioneth in the eyght chapter of the Acts of the Apostles: But I grant him to be y ^• Phillip / that was the deacon & answer that he was no deacon then. For the church of Jerusalem whereof he was deacon / being scattered / he could be no more deacon of it / or distribute the money that was collected for the poor of the church. And further I answer that he was afterward an Evangelist / and therefore preached not by virtue of his deaconshyppe (whose calling is not to preach) but by that he was an Evangelist / whose office put upon him a necessity of preaching. After you say that deacons are not permitted with us to celebrate the Lord's supper / and why then should they be suffered to minister baptism? as if the one sacrament were not as precious as the other. Thys is a miserable rending a sonder of those things / which God hath joined together / not only to separate the ministry of the sacraments from the word / but also the ministry of one sacrament from another.

And what reason is there / that it should be granted unto one that cannot preach being (as they call him a minister) to minister both the sacraments / whē as the same is not permitted unto a deacon (as they call him) which is able to preach? I do not speak it for that I would have those which be deacons in deed / that is which have charge to provide for the poor of someone congregation / either preach or minister the sacraments: but I say that it is against all reason / to permit the ministry of the sacraments to those which cannot preach / & to deny it to those which are able to preach. In the. 118. page unto the example of Phillip / he addeth S. Stephen / which was one of y ^e deacons which he affirmeth to have preached. But I deny it / for all that long oration which he hath in the 7. of the Acts / is no sermon / but a defense of him self against those accusations / which were laid against him / as M. Beza doth very learnedly & substancially prove in his annotations upon those places of S. Stephens disputations & defense. Now to defend him self being accused / is lawful not for the deacons only / but for any other Christian / & we read nothing that Stephen did there either touching the defense of his cause / or the sharp rebuking of the obstinate phariseys and priests / but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor ministers / have done with us / when they have been convented before their persecutors. And where as he saith that Philip baptized / I have shown before by what authority he did it / that is / not in that he was a deacon / but for that he was an Evangelist. He addeth further out of Justin Martyr / that the deacons did distribute the bread & the wyne in the admynistration of the supper. Tully saith in a certain place that it is as great a point of wisdom in an advocate or pleader of causes / to hold back and to keep close that which is hurtful to his cause / as it is to speak that which is profitable.

M. Doctor observeth none of these points / for besides that the things which he brought for the defense of the service book / are such / as they have before appeared: in seeking to defend it / he manyfestly oppugneth it. For before he said that the book of service doth not permit deacons to minister the supper of the Lord / and that by way of alowing of the book: and here he proveth that the deacons did minister the sacrament of the supper / and that also as a thing which he doth alow of.

But to let that pass / I beseech thee (good Reader) mark / what a ministering of the supper this is which Justin maketh mention of / & note with what conscience M. Doctor handeleth this cause. Justin saith that after the scriptures are red and preached of / and prayers made / bread and wine & water was brought forth / and that the minister made prayers and thanks giving in the hearing of the people (which is that which the Evangelists call the blessing / and hath been of later times called the consecration) and after that the people were partakers of them / that then this being done / the deacons did carry of that which was left / unto those which were not present (for that corruption of sending the communion unto the houses was then in the church / against which I have before spoken) now if to carry to a private house the bread and wyne which was blessed or set a part by prayers / & by obeying the institution of Christ by the minister / be to minister the sacrament of the supper / then Serapions boy / of whom mention is made by Eusebius / ministered the sacrament. For Serapion being sick as I have before shown / and sending his boy to the minister for the sacrament / received the same at the hands of his boy / for that the minister being sick / could not come him self: so by M. Doctors reason / Serapions boy ministered the sacrament. And a man would not think that one that hath been the Queens Majesty's public professor of divinity in Cambridge / should not know to distinguish & put a difference between ministering the sacrament / & helping to distribute the bread and the cup of the sacrament. And if M. Doctor could not learn this in books / yet he might have either seen it / or at least heard tell of it in all the reformed churches almost / where the Deacons do assist the minister in helping of him to distribute the cup / and in some places also the bread / for the quicker and spedyer dispatch of the people / being so many in number / that if they should all receive the bread and the cup at the ministers hand / they should not make an end in eight hours / which by that assistance may be finished in two / which is tha • that M. Calvin saith. For he saith the Deacons did reach the cup / & maketh no mention of the bread. And if this be to minister the sacrament / then they that cut the loaf in pieces / they that fetch the wine for the supper / they that pour it forth from greater vessels into glasses and cups / or whosoever aideth anything in this action / do minister the sacrament: then the which thing there can be nothing more ridyculous.

In the ende M. Doctor to shut up this matter / saith / that it is the first step to the ministry / and so joined of S. Paul in the third chapter and first Epistle to Timothy. But what a reason is this: to be a Deacon is the first step to the ministry / therefore the Deacon may preach and minister the sacraments / when as the contrary rather followeth. For if it be a step to the ministry / then it is not the ministry / but differeth from it / and so ought not to do the things that belong to the minister. But I deny that it is / or ought to be always a step to the ministry. I knew that it hath been the use of long time / & I know also that there be very many which interpreate the place of S. Paul / (where he speaking of the Deacons that behave them selves well / that they get them selves a good bathmon, that is a degree to be a minister or a bishop.) But I will show a manifest reason / why it cannot so be understanded / which is / for that as the functions of a Deacon or a minister are divers: so are the gifts also whereby those functions are executed likewise divers. And therefore there may be some men for their wisdom and gravity / discretion and faythfulnesse / and whatsoever other gifts are required in him / that should do this office of prouyding for the poor / and to be a good Deacon: which notwithstanding for some impediment in his tongue / or for want of utterance shall never be able as long as he liveth / to be a good minister of the word / and therefore the gifts being divers wherewith those offices must be executed / (although it is neither unlawful / nor unmeet to make of a Deacon a minister if he have gifts for that purpose) yet I deny that S. Paul appointeth that the Deaconship should be (as it were) the seed or fry of the ministers: or that he meaneth by those words that the Deaconship is a step to the pastorshyp. Which may yet also further appear / by the phrase of speech which the Apostle useth. For he doth not say that they that do the office of Deaconship well / shall come to or get a good standing / but he saith that in so doing they do get themselves a good standing / that is they get themselves authority & estimation in the church / whereby they may be both the bolder to do their office / and whereby they may do it with more fruit. Whereas when they live naughtely / they neither dare do oftentimes that which they should do / nor yet that which they do well / taketh so good effect / because of the discredit which cometh by their evil behavior. And so I conclude that M. Doctor hath brought hitherto nothing / to prove why either Decons ought / or else have wont either to preach or to minister the sacraments.

And albeit M. Doctor be not able to show it / yet I confess that it hath been in times past permitted unto them in some churches to baptize / in other some to preach and baptize and sometimes also to minister the supper: but I say also that this was a corruption / and used at those times / when there were many other gross & intolerable abuses / from the which I do appeal unto that which was first / that is the institution of the Apostles / which lymitted and bounded every function within his several limites and borders which it ought not to pass.

Unto the three next sections contained in the. 94. 95. and a piece of the. 96. pages / touching that which is called the introite / and fragments of the Epistles and Gospels / and the rehearsal of the Nicene Crede / I have declared before the causes of our mislyking / neither mean I to stand to refute the slanderous surmises which M. D. raiseth of the authors of the Admonition / whereby he would bring thē into the suspitiō of Arianism / to whom all those that fear God bear witness / y ^• they are most far from. He him self notwithstanding once again in the last of these three sections. 96. page / doth lay the manifest foundations of that part of Anabaptism / which standeth in having all things common / saying directly against S. Peter / that in the time of the Apostles / Christians had propriety in nothing. And further giving great cause of triumph of the one side to the Catabaptistes / and such as deny the baptism of young infants / in matching that with those things which the church may (although not without incommodity yet without impiety) be without: and of the other side unto the papists / whilst he saith that we read not of any women which received the Lord's supper in the Apostles time. For this is that they allege to prove their unwritten verityes / when as it is easily answered both to the papists and M. Doctor / that for so much as the Apostle doth witness / that the churches of Corinth consysting of mē and women did receive: that therefore women also did receive / and were partakers of the Lord's table. Thus it is manifest that M. Doctor only to displease the authors of the Admonition / sticketh not to pleasure iii. notable heretics / Anabaptists / Catabaptists / and Papists.

To the next section contained in the. 96. and a piece of the. 97. page.

MAister Doctor asketh how it is proved that there was any examination of the communicantes. After this sort: all things necessary were used in the churches of God in y ^e Apostles times / but examynation of those whose knowledge of the mistery of the gospel was not known or doubted of / was a necessary thing / therefore it was used in the churches of God which were in the Apostles time. Then he saith he is sure there is neither commandment nor example in all the scripture. In the book of the Chronicles he might have red / that the Levites were there commanded to prepare the people unto the receiving of the passover / in place whereof we have the Lord's supper. Now examination being a part of the preparation / it followeth that here is commandment of the examination. And how holdeth this argument / S. Paul commandeth that every man should prove him self / Ergo there is no commandment that the minister should prove and examine them? so I may say that every man is a spiritual king to govern him self / therefore he may not be governed of others. The authors of the Admonition do not mean that everyone should be examined as those whose understanding in the gospel is well known / or which do examyne them selves / and so they interpreate them selves in the. 108. page.

To the next section in the 97. 98. and in a piece of the. 99. pages.

I Have spoken of this bread before in general / and if Master Doctor did not disagree with him self / we are here well agreed. For first he saith it skilleth not what bread we have / and by and by he saith / that he wisheth it were common bread / and assigneth a great cause which the book of service likewise assigneth / which is to avoid superstition. And it is certaynely known by experience / that in divers places the ignorant people y ^• have been mysled in popery / have knocked and kneeled unto it / and held up their hands / whilst the minister hath given it / not those only which have received it / but those which have been in the church / and looked on. I speak of that which I know / and have seen with my eyes. An other reason is alleged by Mayster Bucer / which is / that there being some thicker substance of bread / and such as should move and stir up the taste better / the consideration of the mind which is conveyed by the senses / might be also the more effectual / and so the fruit of receiving greater. By the way note that either Bucer's censures upon the book of service be falsely ascribed unto him / or be corrupted / or else were not even in his own time here thought good / substantial / and sufficient / when there is some cause by Acte of Parliament afterward found (I mean in the second book of king Edward) to mislyke wafer cakes / and to change them into common bread. How so ever it be / that circumstance would be well marked / that it was one thing to talk of a wafer cake in the use of the supper in king Edward days before they were justly abolyshed / & another thing now being revoked after they were removed.

Besides that / we be called by the example of our savior Christ to use in the supper usual and common bread / for what time our savior Christ celebrated his supper / there was no other bread to be gotten / but unleavened bread / there being a straight charge given by the law / that there should be then no leavened bread. And it is not to be doubted / but that if there had been then when he celebrated his supper as at other times nothing but leavened bread / he would not have caused unleavened bread to have been made for that purpose of celebrating his supper. But this is a gross ouersyght of M. Doctor / both in this section / and that which goeth before / that he hath not learned to make a difference between that which is not sincerely done / and that which is not at all done. For in the former section he triumpheth upon the admonition / because they conclude / that for as much as there is no examination / therefore it is not rightly and sincerely ministered. For saith he / the examination of the communicants / is not of the substance of the sacrament / and in this section he saith / that for as much as it is not of the substance of the sacrament / whether there be leavened or unleavened bread / therefore it is not sufficiently proved / that the sacrament is not sincerely ministered. But he ought to have understanded / that if either the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine / or the form of it / which is the institution (which things are only substantial partes) were wanting / that then there should have been no sacrament ministered at all / but they being retained / and yet other things used / which are not convenient / the Sacrament is ministered / but not sincerely. For example in the popish baptism / there was the substance of baptism / but there being used spyttle and cream / and candles / and such beggarly trumpery / it was not sincerely ministered / therefore it is one thing to minister sincerely / and another thing to minister / so that that which is of the substance should be wanting. But of this distinction I have spokē in another place / whereinto although M. doctor falleth in the next section / and in other places / yet this shall be an answer for all.

The meaning of the Admonition in saying (their God of the altar) is plain enough / that it is understanded of the papists / but that M. Doctor doth set him self to draw the authors of it into hatred: and he cannot be ignorant / that when a man speaketh of things which are notoriously known / he often useth (the or that / or their) without naming the things which he speaketh of.

To the next section contained in the. 99. and a piece of the. 100. page.

ALthough it be not of necessity / that we should receive the communion sitting / yet there is the same cause of abolyshing kneeling / that there is of removing the wafer cake / and if there be danger of superstition in one (as M. Doctor confesseth) why is there not danger in the other? And if there be men that take occasion to fall at the one / and that by superstition / howe cometh it to pass that M. Doctor in the. 180. page / saith that neither gospeller / nor papists obstinate nor simple / can superstitiously offend in this kneeling / when as the kneeling carrieth a greater show of worship / and Imprinteth in the minds of the ignorant a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration / then the sight of a round • ache. And if kneeling be so void of all fault / as M. Doctor would make us believe / howe came it to pass / that in King Edward's days / there was a protestation added in the boke of prayer / to clear that gesture from adoration.

An other reason why kneeling should be taken away / is for that sitting agreeth better with the action of the supper / whereunto M. Doctor taketh exception / both in this place / and where he speaketh again of it / that for so much as this sacrament is a sacrament of thanks giving / and thanks giving a prayer / therefore kneeling to be most fit / as that which we use ordinarily when we pray.

But he should have remembered / that that thanks giving may well come after we have received the sacrament / and that whilst we receive the bread and wine of y ^e sacrament / we are not then most fit to speak / they being in our mouths, and during the time we receive them / our mind is occupied in considering the inestimable benefit which the Lord hath bestowed upon us / and to meditate of the fruit which we receive thereby / by the Analogy and comparison between the bodily nourishment and the spiritual / that by these considerations our minds may be more enflamed and set on fire / and our mouths may be filled with the praise of God / after we have received. And further if this be a good reason that therefore it is meet we should kneel at the supper for as much as we give thanks / then it followeth that when so ever we have supped or dined / it is meet that we should kneel / when as yet we do say grace sitting. And by this he accuseth our savior Christ and his Apostles / as those which did not use y ^e which was most fit: for in his judgment he saith kneeling is the fittest site or position of the body which can be / and if our savior Christ had been of that judgment / undoubtedly he would have also kneeled / and caused his Apostles so to do. In the. 181. page unto the admonition / saying that sitting is most fit / because it betokeneth rest and accomplishment of the ceremonies in our savior Christ / M. doctor saith it is a papistical reason / and triumpheth over the authors of the admonition / because they allegory / when as notwithstanding the surplice before / crossing / and rings. &c. afterwards / are defended by nothing / but with vain allegories / which have nothing so good grounds as this hath. But let it be that this is not so sound a reason (as in deed for my part I will not defend it / and the authors them selves have corrected it) yet M. doctor might have dealt easlier with all / then to called a papistical reason / which is far from popery / and the reason of two notable learned & zealous men Johannes Alasco / and of M. Hooper in his commentary upon the Prophet Jonah. For the rest which he hath here / or in the. 180. and. 181. page / it is either answered before (as that the danger of adoration may be taken away) or hath no matter worthy the answering. I only admonish the reader / that sitting at the communion is not hold̄ to be necessary / but only that I think that kneeling is very dangerous / for the causes before aledged.

Unto the .iii. next sections contained in the .100. and .101. page / I have spoken already / when as I shown the general faults of the service boke / only that is to be noted / that M. doctor still privily pincheth or ever he be aware at our savior Christ's action / in the first of these sections / when as he commendeth rather this form of speaking / take thou / then that which our savior Christ used / in saying take ye. And if it be a good argument to prove that therefore we must rather say take thou / then take ye / because the sacrament is an application of the benefits of Christ: then for as much as preaching is the applying of the benefits of Christ / it behooveth that the preacher should direct his admonitions particularly one after another / unto all those which hear his sermon / which is a thing absurd. And therefore besides that it is good to leave the popish form / in those things which we may so conveniently do: it is best to come as near y ^• manner of celebration of the supper / which our savior Christ used / as may be.

To the next section contained in the. 102. and a piece of the. 103. page.

IF the place of the. 5. to the Corinthians do forbid that we should have any familiarity with notorious offenders / it doth much more forbid that they should be received to the communion. And therefore papists being such / as which are notoriously known to hold heretical opinions / ought not to be admitted / much les compelled to the supper. For seeing that our savior Christ did institute his supper amongst his disciples / and those only which were as S. Paul speaketh within / it is evident / that the papists being without / and foreiners and strangers from the church of God / ought not to be received / if they would offer them selves: and that minister that shall give the supper of the Lord to him which is known to be a papist / and which hath never made any clear renouncing of popery with which he hath ben defiled / doth profane the table of the Lord / & doth give the meat that is prepared for the children / to dogs / and he bringeth into the pasture which is provided for the sheep / swine and unclean beasts / contrary to the faith and trust that ought to be in a steward of the Lord's house / as he is. For albeit that I doubt not / but many of those which are now papists / pertain to the election of God / which God also in his good time will call to the knowledge of his truth: yet notwithstanding they ought to be unto the minister and unto the church touching the ministering of the sacraments / as strangers and as unclean beasts. And as for the papists / howsoever they receive it / whether as their popish breaden God (as some do) or as common and ordinary bread (as other some do) or as a thing they know not what (as some other) they do nothing else but eat and drink their own condemnation / the weight whereof they shall one day assuredly feel / unless they do repeat them of such horrible profaning of the Lord's most holy mysteries. And if this be to gratify the papists / to show that they ought not to be compelled to receive the supper of the Lord / as long as they continue in their popery: I am well content to show them this. pleasure / so that both they and you forget not / what I have before said / that the magistrate ought to compel them to hear the word of God / and if they profit not / nor with sufficient teaching correct not them selves / that then they should be punished. And if you do ask why they should be more compelled unto the sermons / then unto the supper of the Lord / or why they are not as well to be admitted unto the one / as unto the other: you see the like done in the sacrament of baptism / which may not be ministered unto all to whom the word may be preached. The reason also is at hand / for the preaching of the word of God to the papists / is an offer of the grace of God / which may be made to those which are strangers from God / but the ministering of the holy sacraments unto them / is a declaration and seal of God's favor & reconciliation with them / and a plain preaching / partly that they be washed already from their sins / partly that they are of the household of God / and such as the Lord will feed to eternail life / which is not lawful to be don to those which are not of the household of faith. And therefore. I conclude / that the compelling of papists unto the communion / and the dismissing and letting of them go / whē as they be to be punished for their stubbernes in popery (with this condition if they will receive the communion) is very unlawful / when as although they would receive it / yet they ought to be kept back / until such time / as by their religious and gospellike behavior / they have purged themselves of that suspicion of popery / which their former life and conversation hath caused to be conceived. As for the fee that M. doctor saith we be worthy of / for showing our selves (as he saith) so good patrons of the papists / he hath given us well to understand / what it should be if he were the paymaister: but as we serve the Lord in this work / so we loke for reward at his hand / not fearing but that the Lord will in the ende give such blessing unto our labors / as we shall not need greatly to fear at the hands of those which God hath placed in authority / thereward which you do so often call for.

Unto that which is contained in the two next sections in the. 103. and a piece of the. 104. pages I have answered before partly particularly: and partly when I noted the general faults of the service boke / especially seeing that M. Doctor will not defend the piping / and organs / nor no other singing then is used in the reformed churches: which is in the singing of two Psalms / one in the beginning / and another in the ending / in a plain tune / easy both to be sung of those which have no art in singing / and understanded of those which because they cannot read / cannot sing with the rest of the church.

The reply unto the next section which is contained in the 106. 107. and a piece of the. 108. pages.

FOr that which is in the. 105. page / and concerneth the surplice / I have answered before. There followeth the interrogatories or demands ministered unto the infants in baptism / for the proof whereof is brought / in the first place Dionisius Areopagita, a worthy cover for such a cup. For to let pas / that M. doctor alledgeth the celestial hierarchy / instead that he should have cited the ecclesiastical hierarchy / this testimony being found in the one / and not in the other: dare M. Doctor be so bold / as to delude the world in so great light / with such babbles as this? doth he think that the author of these books of hierarchies / being so full of subtle speculations / vain and idle fancies / wicked blasphemies / making one order of popes / another of prelates / the third of sacrificers / and then of monks (some of which orders came not many hundredth years after that time / wherein Denis the Arcopagite lived) which mentioneth many foolish ceremonies and corruptions (that no other author neither Greek nor Latin stories / nor others diverse hundredth years after doth make any mention of besides him) I say doth he think to abuse men / and to give them such dross in stead of silver / such chaff instead of corn / as to make us believe that he that wrote these books of hierarchy / was s. Paul's scholar? for the better blasing of this Denis arms / I will send the (reader) unto that which Erasmus writeth of this Denis of M. Doctors / upon the. 17. of the Acts of the Apostles / where he also showeth together with his own judgment / the judgment of Laurentius Valla. I am not ignorant what Nicephorus a fabulous historiographer / and of no credit in such matters (and in those matters especially / which might like or mislike those times wherein he wrote) saith of S. Paul's communicating with Denis / and another / concerning the heavenly and Ecclesiastical hierarchy. But because I think M. Doctor be now ashamed of his Denis / I will follow it no further.

By this it may appear / that M. Doctors Dionisius being a counterfeit and startvp / these interrogatories and demaūds ministered unto the infants / have not so many gray hairs as he would make us believe / although in deed the question lieth not in y ^e antiquity. As for reasons he hath none / but only as one which hath learned his aequipollences very evil / he maketh it all one to say (I renounce) and to say (I will teach another to renounce.) As for S. Augustine's place (although I cannot alow his reason that he maketh / nor the proportion that is between the sacrament of the body and blood of our savior Christ / and his body and blood it self of one side / and between the sacrament of baptism / and faith of the other side: saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christ after a sort is the body / so the baptism of the sacrament of faith / is after a sort faith / whereas he should have said / that as the supper being the sacrament of y ^• body of Christ / is after a sort the body of Christ: so baptism being a sacrament of the blood of Christ / is after a sort the blood of Christ / for faith is not the subject of baptism / as the body and blood of Christ is the matter of the supper). Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one word to approve this abuse of answering in the childes name / & in his person / but goeth about to establish another abuse / which was / that it was lawful for those that presented the child / to say that it believed. So that it is like that the minyster did ask those which presented the infant / whether they thought that it was faithful / and did believe / and those which presented it / said it was so: whereupon this question rose / whether it was lawful to say that the child believed.

In the. 191. and. 192. pages / he speaketh of this again / but he doth nothing else but repeat in both places / that which is here / only he saith / that it is a mocking of God to use the place of the Galatians (God is not mocked) against this abuse / and his reason is / because s. Paul speaketh there against those that by feigned excuses / seek to defraud the pastor of his living / as who should say s. Paul did not conclude that particular conclusion (thou shalt not by frivolous excuses defraud the minister) with this general saying (God is not mocked) for his reason is / God is not mocked at all / or in any matter / therefore he is not mocked in this. Or as who should say / because our savior Christ saying that it is not lawful to separate that which God hath joined / speaking of divorce: it is not lawful to use this sentence / being a general rule / in other things / when as we know it is as well and properly used against the papists / which sever the cup from the bread / as against the Jews which put away their wives for every small and trifling cause. And as for this questioning / it can be little better termed / then a very trifling and toying. For first of all / children have not / nor cannot have any faith / having no understanding of the word of God / I will not deny / but children have the spirit of God / which worketh in them after a wonderful fashion. But I deny that they can have faith which cometh by hearing / & understanding which is not in them. Secondarily / if children could have faith / yet they that present the child / cannot precisely tell / whether that particular child hath faith or no / and therefore cannot so absolutely answer that it believeth? Because it is comprehended in the covenant / and is the child of faithful parents / or at the least of one of the parents / there is warrant unto the presenters to offer it unto baptism / and to the minister for to baptize it. And further we have to think charitably / and to hope / that it is one of the church. But it can be no more precisely said that it hath faith / thē it may be said precisely elected (for in deed it is all one to say that it is elect / and to say it believeth) and this I think the authors of the admonition do mean / when they say that they require a promise of the Godfather / which is not in them to perform. Thirdly / if both those things were true / that is / that infantes had faith / and that it might be precisely said y ^• it believeth / yet ought not the minister demand this of the child / whom he knoweth cannot answer him / nor those that answer for the child ought to demand to be baptized / when they neither mean / nor may be (being already baptized. But it is meet / that all things should be done gravely / simply / and plainly in the church. And so (if those other two things were lawful) it ought to be done / as seemeth to have been done in S. Augustine's times / when the minister asked those that presented the infant / and not the infant / whether it were faithful / and those which presented / answered in their own persons / and not in the childes / that it was faithful.

For Godfathers there is no controversy between the admonition / and M. doctors boke / which appeareth not only in their corrections / but plainly in the 188. page / where they declare that they rather condemn the abuse / whilst it is urged more then greater matters / and which are in deed necessary / this being a thing arbitrary / and left to the discretion of the church / and whilst there is so evil choice for the moste parte of Godfathers / which is expressedly mentioned of the admonition / and whilst it is used almost for nothing else / but as a mean for one friend to gratify another / without having any regard to the solempne promise made before God and the congregation / of seeing the child brought up in the nurture and fear of the Lord. For the thing it self / considering that it is so generally received of all the churches / they do not mislike of it.

As for fonts I have spoken of before / both particularly & in general. But whereas M. doctor saith in the apostles times they baptized in no basins but in rivers & common waters / I would know whether there was a river or common water in Cornelius and in the iaylors houses / where Paul and Peter baptized.

To prove crossing in baptism / M. Bucer's authority is brought. I have said before / what injury it is to leave the publyke works of Bucer / and to fly unto the Apochryphas, wherein also they might drive us to use the like / and to set down likewise his words which we find in his private letters. But it is first of all to be observed of the reader / howe & with what name those notes are called / which are cited of M. Doctor for the defense of these corruptions. They are called by M. Doctors own confession (censures) which word signifieth and implieth / as much as corrections and controlments of the book of service / and therefore we may take this for a general rule throughout the whole boke of service / that in whatsoever things in controversy M. Doctor doth not bring Bucer's authority to confirm them / that those things Bucer mislyked of: as for example in private baptism / and communions ministered in houses / for interrogatories ministered unto infants / & such like / for so much as they are not confirmed here by M. Bucer's judgment / it may be thought / that he mislyked of them / and no doubt if either M. Bucer's notes had not either condemned or mislyked of diverse things in the service boke: we should have had the notes printed and set forth to the full / this I thought in a word to admonish the reader of.

Unto M. Bucer's authority / I could here opposemen of as great authority / yea the authority of all the reformed churches / which shall also be done afterward. And if there were nothing to oppose but the word of God / which will have the sacraments ministered simply / and in that sincerity that they be left unto us / it is enough to make all men to cover their faces / and to be ashamed / if that which they shall speak / be not agreeable to that simplicity. The reasons which Bucer bringeth I will answer / which in this matter of crossing are two. First that it is ancient / and so it is in deed. For Tertullian maketh mention of this usage / and if this be sufficient to prove the goodness of it / then there is no cause why we should mislyke of the other superstitions and corruptious which were likewise used in those tunes. For the same Tertullian showeth / that they used also at baptism to taste of miike and honey / and not to wash all the week after they had ministered baptism.

But here I will note the cause whereupon I suppose this use of crossing came up in the primitive church / whereby shall appear / how there is no cause now why it should be retained / if there were any why it should be used in the primitive church. It is known to all that have red the Ecclesiastical stories / that the heathen did object to the Christians in times past in reproach / that the God which they believed of / was hanged upon a cross. And they thought good to testify that they were not ashamed therefore of the same God / by the often using of the sign of the cross / which carefulness and good mind to keep amongst them an open profession of Christ crucified / although it be to be commended: yet is not this means so: for they might otherwise have kept it / and with les danger / then by this use of crossing. And if they thought y ^e use of the cross to be the best means / yet they should not have been so bold / as to have brought it into the holy sacrament of baptism / and so mingle the ceremonies and inventions of men / with the sacraments & institution of God. And as it was brought in upon no good ground / so the Lord left a mark of his curse of it / and whereby it might be perceived to come out of the forge of man's brain / in that it began forthwyth / while it was yet in the swaddling clouts to be superstitiously abused. For it appeareth by Tertullian also in the same book De corona militis, that the Christians had such a superstition in it / that they would do nothing / nor take nothing in hand / unless they had crossed them when they went out / when they came in / when they sat or lay down / and when they rose / and as superstition is always strengthened / and spreadeth it self with the time / so it came from crossing of men / unto crossing of every thing that they used. Whervpon Chrysostom commondeth the crossing of the cup before a man drink / and of the meat before it was eaten. But if it were granted that upon this consideration which I have before mentioned / the ancient Christians did well: yet it followeth not / that we should so do. For we live not amongst those nations which do cast us in the teethe / or reproach us with the cross of Christ. If we lived amongst the Turks / it were another matter / and then there might peradventure some question be / whether we should do as they did / and having the same sore / use the same plaster: but now we live among the papists / that do not contemn the cross of Christ / but which esteem more of the wooden cross / then of the true cross of Christ (which is his sufferings) we ought now do clean contrariwise to the old Christians / and abolyshe all use of these crosses / for contrary dyseases must have contrary remedyes. If therefore the old Christians to deliver the cross of Christ from contempt / did often use the cross: the Christians now to take away the superstitious estimation of it / ought to take away the use of it. Concerning the other reason of the profitable signification of the cross / I have shown / that that maketh the thing a great deal worse / and bringeth in a new word into the church / whereas there ought to be no Doctor heard in the church / but only our savior Christ. For if these significations be good / then the papists have to answer us / that their ceremonies be not dumb / which have as lykely and as glorious significations as these are / and so in deed they say / that their ceremonies are not dumb ceremonies / for so much as they signify so good things. But although it be the word of God that we should not be ashamed of the cross of Christ / yet is it not the word of God / that we should be kept in remembrance and observation of y ^e by two lines drawn a cross one over another in the childes forehead / but a fond toy and idle devise of man's brain.

In the. 192. page / unto the admonition objecting that by this signification it is made a sacrament / M. Doctor answereth that every ceremony which betokeneth some thing is not a sacrament: I would know what maketh a sacrament if a doctrine annexed unto an outward sign doth not make a sacrament. And I am sure / there was no outward sign neither in the old testament nor in the new / which hath a doctrine joined with it / which is not a sacrament. For if he will take the nature of the sacrament so straightly as Augustine doth / and that there be no Sacraments / but when as to the clement there cometh the word / the circumcision can be no sacrament. Besydes that / seeing that master Doctor hath condemned the allegory and signifycation of sytting at the Lord's supper / saying that it is Papistical / I marvel what privilege he hath or special lycence / that he may allow that in him self and in his own assertions / which he saith is unlawful and papistical in others / especially seeing the allegorye of the sitting was never used by the Papists / but this of crossing is. And if this license of allegories be allowed / I see not why Oil may not be brought into the sacrament / as well as crossing / both because it hath been a sacrament of God before / and for that the signification thereof (betokening the gifts of the holy ghost / and shadowing out the power & efficacy of those gyfts) carrieth as great a show of wisdom and Christian instruction / as doth the crossing. And to conclude / I see no cause / why some crosses should be unlawful / and other some commendable: and why it should be a monument of popery in wode and metal / and yet a christistian badge in the forehead of a man: why we should not like of it in streets and high ways / & yet allow of it in the church. And because I would have all those things together / that touche this matter of baptism / I come to that which he hath in the next section / & in the. 111. page / where after his old manner he wrangleth and quarelleth. For although the Admonition speaketh so plainly and so clearly / that (as Hesiode saith) it might areskein to momo satisfy Momus / yet M. doctor goeth about there to bring it in suspicion of Anabaptism / because allowing in plain words / the baptism of infants / they add that if the parties be of discretion and years / them selves in their own parsons should demand to be baptized. For saith he in this church / they tarry not for baptism so long. But is there no case or may there not be / when they that be of age may be baptized? It may be there are Jews in England / which understanding their blindness / and confessing their sin / may desire to be baptized / and there be diverse Mores in noble men's and gentle men's houses / which are sometimes brought to the knowledge of Christ / whereby there is some use and practice of this case.

After that M. Doctor hath cast him self in derision / at the feet of the authors of the Admonition / and desired to be taught of them whom he hath so contemptuously condemned as unlearned / he doth by and by raise up him self into his chair / and there sitteth Doctorally / apposing the authors of the admonition / as if they were his scholars: and upon occasion of the sound faith and good behauyor of the parents of the infante mentioned by the admonition / asketh first of all / what if the infant be the child of a dronkard? what if he be of a harlot? shall not (saith he) the infant be baptized? If it were not that M. doctor in asking these questions doth also answer them / and answereth them far otherwise then the truth doeth suffer / I would not be drawn from the causes which we have in hand by these roging questions / now I cannot leave them vnansweared / because I see that master Doctor doth make of the holy Sacrament of baptism (which is an entry into the house of God / and whereby only the family of God must enter) a common passage whereby he will have clean and unclean / holy and profane / as well those that are without the covenant as those that be within it / to pass by: and so maketh the church no household / but an June to receive whosoever cometh. I will answer therefore almost in as many words / as the questions be asked. If one of the parents be neither drunkarde nor adulterer / the child is holy by virtue of the covenant / for one of the parents sakes. If they be both / and yet not obstinate in their sin / whereby the church hath not proceeded to Excommunication / (them selves being yet of the church) their child cannot / nor ought not to be refused. To the second question / wherein he asketh what if the child be of Papists or Heretics. If both be Papists / or condenmed heretics / (if so be I may distinguish papists from heretics) and cut of from the church / then their children cannot be received / because they are not in the covenant: if either of them be faithful / I have answered before that they ought to be received. To the other question wherein he asketh / what if they err in some points of matters of faith. If it be but an error / and be not in those points which case the foundations of faith / because they still notwythstandyng their error / are to be counted amongst the faithful / their children pertain unto the promise / and therefore to the sacrament of the promise.

And in the. 193. page he asketh / what if the parents of the child be unknown. If they be / yet if godly men will present it to baptism / with promise of seeing it brought up in the fear of the Lord / for so much as it is found in a place where the church is / and therefore by lykelyhoode to appertain unto some that was of the church: I think it may be baptized / if the church think it good in this last case.

Then he goeth forth in the. 111. page to prove that the children of those which he hath reckoned / may be baptized / and demandeth whether a wicked father may have a good child / a papist or heretic father a believing child? yes verily may they. So may have and hath the Turk and the Jew / and yet their children are not to be received / unless their faith do first appear by confession. But you say the papist and heretic be baptized / and so are not the Jews and Turks. Their baptism (they being cut of from the church) maketh them as much strangers unto it / as was Ishmael and Esau: which albeit they were circumcysed / yet being cast out of the church / they were no more to be accounted to be of the body of God's people / then those which never were in the church. Now you see the poison (as you term it) which lieth hyd under these words / and if it be as you say poison / let us have some of your triacle. In all the rest of the section / there is nothing but that which he spake of before / only the eldership is named / which cometh to be entreated of in the next section.

The reply unto the three next sections concerning the seniors / beginning in the latter end of the. 112. page / and holding on until the beginning of the. 118. page.

AS though M. Doctor were at utter defiance with all good order / & Method of writing / that which was given him orderly by the Admonition / he hath turned upside down. For where the Admonition speaketh first of the elders / then of that which is annexed unto them / which is the dyscipline (whereof excommunication is a part) considering that the subject is in nature before that which is annexed unto it / M. Doctor hath turned it clean contrary / and first speaketh of excommunication / and then of the elders. I will therefore that the reader may the easelyer understand that which is said / follow the order of the Admonition / and first of all speak of the elders or seniors which ought to be in the church. And in speaking of them / I must call to remembrance that division which I made mention on before / that is: Of those which have care and which govern the whole congregation / some there be which do both teache the word and govern also: some which do not teach / but only govern / and be aiders in the government / unto those which do teache. Thys dyuision is most manifestly set forth in the Epistle unto Timothy: where he saith the elders which rule well / are worthy of double honor / and especially those which labor in the word and doctrine / where he maketh by plain and express words two sorts of elders / the one which doth both govern and teach: the other which governeth only. These therefore are the seniors which are meant / whose office is in helping the pastor or bishop / in the government of that particular church / where they be placed pastors and elders. Now that it is known what these seniors be / in entreating of them I am content to answer M. Doctor three requests which he maketh in the. 125. page / where he desireth that one would do so much for him / as first to show that these seniors were in every congregation: secondarely he will have it proved that this regiment is perpetual / and not to be altered: last of all he desireth to know / whether these seniors were lay men / and not rather ministers of the word and bishops. Thys last is a fond request / and such as is already answered / but he must be followed. For the first therefore / which is / that there were segnyors in every congregation / although M. Doctor in the 114. page / and in the. 132. page / constrained / by Ambose authority / confesseth it in plain words / yet because he requireth it to be shown / and maketh a jest at those places which are alleged out of the scripture to prove it / something must be spoken thereof. The first place is in the Acts / which is / that Paul & Barnabas did appoint by election / elders in every congregation / but it is not like they did appoint divers ministers or bishops / which preached in every congregation / which were not to be had for such a number of congregations as were then to be preached unto: therefore in every congregation there were besides those that preached / other elders which did only in government assist the pastors which preached. And what should we follow comectures here / when S. Paul doth in the place before alleged declare / what these elders are. But M. Doctor saith that there is no mention made of the office of such an elder: therefore that place maketh nothing to prove that there should be such elders in every congregation. So M. Doctor write / he careth not what he write. Belike he thinketh the credit of his degree of Doctorshyp / will give weight to that which is light / and pithe to that which is froth / or else he would never answer thus. For then I will if this be a good reason say / that for so much as S. Luke doth not in that place describe the office of the pastor or bishop which preacheth the word / therefore that place proveth not that in every congregation there should be a bishop or a pastor. Besides that / M. Doctor taketh up the authors of the Admonition for reasoning negatively of the testimony of all the scriptures / and yet he reasoneth negatively of one only sentence in the scripture. For he would conclude that for so much as there is no duty of a senyor described in that place / therefore there is no duty at all / and consequently no senyor.

Afterwardes he saith / that for so much as this place hath been used to prove a pastor or bishop in every church / therefore it cannot be used to prove these elders / so that (saith he) there must needs be either a contradiction or else a falsification. The place is rightly alleged for both the one and the other / and yet neither contradiction to them selves / nor falsification of the place: but only a must before M. Doctors eyes / which will not let him see a plain and evident truth / which is / that the word (elder) is general / and comprehendeth both those elders which teach and govern / and those which govern only / as hath been shown out of S. Paul. And whereas M. Doctor saith / that the place of the Corinthes may be understanded of civil magistrates / of preaching ministers / of governors of the whole church / and not of every particular church / and finally anything / rather then that whereof it is in deed understanded: I say first that he still stumbleth at one stone / which is / that he cannot put a difference between the church and common wealth: and so between the church officers which he there speaketh of / and the officers of the common wealth / those which are ecclesiastical: and those which are civil. Then that he meaneth not the minister which proacheth / it may appear / for that he had noted them before in the word (teachers) and last of all he cannot mean gouernoure of the whole church / unless he should mean a Pope / and if he will say he meaneth an Archbyshop which governeth a whole province / besides that it is a bold speech without all warrant / I have shown before that the word of God alloweth of no such office / and therefore it remaineth that it must be understanded of this office of Elders. The same answer may be made unto that which he saith of the place to the Romaines / where speaking of the offices of the church / after that he had set forth the office of the pastor / and of the doctor / he addeth those other two offices of the Church / whereof one was occupied in the government only / the other in prouyding for the poor / and helping the sick. And if besides the manifest words of the Apostle in both these places / I should add the sentences of the writers upon those places / as M. Calvin / M. Beza / M. Martyr / M. Bucer. &c. It should easily appear / what just cause M. Doctor hath to say / that it is to daily with the scriptures / and to make them a nose of wax / in alleging of these to prove the elders / that all men might understand / what terrible outcries he maketh / as in this place / so almost in all other / when there is cause / that he should lay his hand upon his mouth.

Thys I am compelled to write / not so much to prove that there were seniors in every church (which is a thing confessed) as to redeame those places from M. Doctors false and corrupt interpretations. And as for the proof of elders in every congregation / besides his confession / I need have no more but his own reason: For he saith that the office of these elders in every church / was in that time wherein there were no Christian magistrates / and when there was persecution / but in the Apostles times there was both persecution / and no Christian magistrates / therefore in their time the office of these elders was in every congregation. I come therefore to the second point wherein the question especially lieth / which is / whether this function be perpetual / and ought to remain always in the church. And it is to be observed by the way / that where as there are divers sortes of adversaries to this discipline of the church / Master Doctor is amongst the worst. For there be that say / that this order may be used or not used now / at the lybertie of the churches: But M. Doctor saith that this order is not for these times / but only for those times when there were no Christian magistrates / and so doth flatly pinch at those churches which having Christian magistrates / yet notwithstanding retain this order still.

And to the ende that the vanity of this distinction / which is / that there ought to be seniors or ancients in the times of persecution / and not of peace: under tyrants and not under Christian magistrates may appear: the cause why these seniors or ancients were appointed in the church / is to be considered / which must needs be granted to be / for that the pastor not being able to oversee all him self / and to have his eyes in every corner of the church / and places where the churches abode / might be helped of the ancients. Wherein the wonderful love of God towards his church doth manifestly appear / that for the greater assurance of the salvation of his / did not content him self to appoint one only overseer of every church / but many over every church.

And therefore seeing that the pastor is now in the time of peace / and under a Christian magistrate not able to oversee all him self / nor his eyes cannot be in every place of the paryshe present to behold the behavior of the people / it followeth that as well now as in the time of persecution / as well under a Christian prince as under a tyrant / the office of an ancient or seignior is required. Unless you will say that God hath less care of his church in the time of peace and under a godly magistrate / then he hath in the time of persecution / and under a tyrant. In deed if so be the ancients in the time of persecution and under a tyrant / had meddled with any office of a magistrate / or had supplied the room of a godly magistrate / in handling of any of those things which belonged unto him / then there had been some cause why a godly magistrate being in the church / the office of the senior / or at least so much as he exercised of the office of a magistrate / should have ceased.

But when as the ancient neither did / nor by any means might meddle with those things which belonged unto a magistrate / no more under a tyrant thē under a godly magistrate / there is no reason why the magistrate entering into the church / the elder should be therefore thrust out. For the elders office was to admonish severally / those that did amiss / to comfort those which he saw weak & shaking / and to have need of comfort / to assist the pastor in ecclesiastical censures of reprehensions / sharper or milder as the faults required / also to assist in the suspēsions from the supper of the Lord until some trial were had of the repentance of that party which had confessed him self to have offended / or else if he remained stubborn / to assist him in the excommunicatiō. These were those things / which the elders did / which forsomuch as they may do as well under a Christian magistrate / as under a tyrant / as well in the time of peace as in the time of persecution / it followeth that as touching the office of elders / there is no distinction in the times of peace and persecution / of a Christian prince and of a tyrant. But I will yet come nearer. That without the which / the principal offices of charity cannot be excercised / is necessary and always to be kept in the church. But the office of ancients & elders are such as without which the principal offices of charity cannot be exercised / therefore it followeth that this office is necessary. That the principal offices of charity cannot be exercised without this order of ancients / it may appear for that he which hath faulted / and amendeth not after he be admonyshed once privately / and then before one witness or two / cannot further be proceeded against / according to the commandment of our savior Christ / unless there be in the church / ancients and elders / therefore this principal office of charity / which tendeth to the amendment of him which hath not profited by those two former admonitions / cannot be exercised without them. For it is commanded of our savior Christ / that in such a case when a brother doth not profit by these two warnings / it should be told the church. Now I would ask who be meant by the church here / if he say by the church are meant all the people / then I will ask how a man can conveniently complain to all the whole congregation / or how can the whole congregation conveniently meet to decide of this matter. I do not deny / but the people have an interest in the excommunication / as shall be noted hereafter / but the matter is not so far come / for he must first refuse to obey the admonition of the church / or ever they can proceed so far. Well / if it be not the people that be meant by the church / who is it? I hear M. Doctor say it is the pastor / but if he will say so / and speak so straungely / he must warrant it with some other places of scripture where the church is taken for one / which is as much to say as one man is many / one member is a body / one alone is a company. And besides this strangeness of speech / it is clean contrary to the meaning of our savior Christ / and destroyeth the soueraignitie of the medycine which our savior Christ prepared for such a festered sore / as would neither be healed with private admonition / neither with admonition before one or two witnesses. For as the fault groweth / so our savior Christ would have the number of those before whom he should be checked and rebuked / likewise grow. Therefore from a private admonition he riseth unto the admonition before two or three / & from them to the church / which if we should say it is but one / then to a daungerouser wound should be laid an easier plaster: and therefore our savior doth not rise from two to one / (for that were not to rise but to fall / nor to proceed but to go backward (but to many. Seeing then that the church here is neither the whole congregation / nor the pastor alone / it followeth that by the church here he meaneth the pastor / with the ancients or elders. Or else whom can he mean? And as for this manner of speech / wherein by the church is understanded the chief governors and elders of the church / it is oftentimes used in the old Testament / from the which our savior borrowed this manner of speaking / as in Exodus it is said. That Moses wrought his miracles before the people / when mention is made before / only of the elders of the people / whom Moses had called together. And most manifestly in * Joshua / where it is said / that he that killed a man at unawares / shall return unto the city until he stand before the congregration to be judged. Where by the congregation / he meaneth the governors of the congregation / for it did not appertain to all to judge of this case. Lykewyse in the Chronicles / and divers other places. And therefore I conclude that forsomuch as those be necessary and perpetual which are spoken of in those words (tell the Church) and that under those words are comprehended the elders or ancients / that the elders and ancients be necessary and perpetual officers in the church. Furthermore S. Paul having entreated throughout the whole first Epistle to Timothy / of the orders which ought to be in the church of God / and of y ^e government / as him self witnesseth in y ^e third chapter of that Epistle (whē he saith he wrote that Epistle to teach Timothy how he should behave him self in the house of God) and having set forth both bishop / and elder / and deacons / as ministers and officers of the church / in the shutting up of his Epistle he (for the observation of all the orders of that Epistle) adiureth Timothy / and with the invocation of the name of God strayghtly chargeth him / to observe those things which he had prescribed in that Epistle. I charge thee (saith he) before God which quickeneth all things / and before Jesus Christ which witnessed under Pontius Pilate a good profession that thou keep this commandment without spot or blemishe / until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ. The wayght of which sentence for the observing of those things which are mentioned in this Epistle / that it may be the better understanded / I will note the words severally.

First therefore it is to be noted that he saith (I denounce or I charge.) He doth not say (I exhort or give counsel) leaving it to the lyberty of Timothy.

Secondarely it is to be noted / that he calleth the whole Epistle a commandment / and therefore it is no permission / so that it may be lawful for the churches to leave it / or to keep it.

Thirdly / when he maketh mention of the living God / and of Christ / which witnessed a good profession under Pontius Pilate / he showeth that the things contained in this Epistle are such / as for the maintenance thereof we ought not to doubt to give our lives / and that they be not such as we ought to keep / so that we have them without strife and without sweat / or easily / but such as for the keeping of them if we have them / and for the obtaining of them if we have them not (I will not say our honors / or our commodities and wealth / but as I have said) our lives ought not to be dear unto us. For therefore doth he make mention of the confession of Christ unto the death / that he might show us an example / and forthwith speaketh of God / which raiseth from the dead / that by this means he might comfort Timothy if he should be brought into any trouble for the defense of any of these things.

Fourthly / if we refer those words without spot or blemish unto the commandment (as I for my part think they ought to be) then there is a weight in these words not to be passed over / which is / y ^t the apostle will not only have the rules here contained / not trodden under the feet / or broken in pieces / but he will not have them so much as in any one small point or specke neglected. But I see how M. Doctor will wype away all this / and say that these things / or some of them were to be observed thus necessarily and precisely / until there were Christian princes and peace in the church: but the print is deeper then that it will be so washed away. Therefore it is to be observed / what he saith in the latter end of the sentence / where he chargeth Timothy / and in him all / that he should keep all these things / not until the time of peace / or to the times of Christian Princes / but even until the coming or appearing of our savior Christ / which is as long as the world lasteth. And therefore I conclude that the seigniors or elders of the church (being a part of that order and government of the church / which S. Paul appointeth in this Epistle) are necessary / perpetual / and by no means to be changed. So that we have / not only now the examples of all the primitive churches (which ought to move us / if there were no commandment) but we have also a straight commandment: I say the only examples ought to move us / for what way can we safelyer follow / then the common high way / beaten and trodden by the steps of all the Apostles / and of all the churches? Things also growing / and being preserved by the same means by the which they were engendered / why should we think but that the churches now will prosper by that government / whereby it first came up? But I say we have not only the examples of the churches / but we have also commandment and straight charge to keep this office of elders and ancients in the church / and therefore it is not only rashness in leaving the way that the Apostles and churches by the Apostles advise have gone / but disobedyence also to depart from their commandment / and to maintain and defend that we may do so / I can almost give it no gentler name then rebellion.

Now I will come to Mayster Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundredth and fourteen / and a hundred and fifteen pages / where he granteth that there were elders in every church in times past / but saith that it ought not now so to be. For saith he / the times alter the government / and it cannot be governed in the time of prosperity / as in the time of persecution / under a Christian prince as under a tyrant. Thus he saith / but showeth no reason / bringeth no proof / declareth not how nor why prosperity will not bear the Elders as well as persecution / neither why they may not be under a godly prince as well as under a tyrant / unless this be a reason / that because the godly prince doth nourish the church as a civil magistrate / therefore the ancients may not nourish it as Ecclesiastical overseers.

Now seeing Master Doctor can show us no cause why they may not as well be now / as in the time of the Apostles / as well under a Christian prince as under a tyrant / I will show him that although they be always necessary / yet there is better cause why they should rather be now then in the apostles times / greater necessyty under a Christian prince / then under a tyrant. First of all in the apostles times it is known that the gifts of the spirit of wisdom / discretion / knowledge / enduring of travail / were poured forth more plentifully then ever they were / either before / or shall be after. By reason whereof the pastoures and ministers of the churches that were then / were (I speak generally / and of the estate of the whole Church) better furnyshed with the gifts needful for their ministry / then are the ministers of these days. Wherupon I conclude that if the aid and assistance of the pastor by the Elders / was thought necessary by the apostles in those times / when the ministers were so well / and so richly replenished with such gifts / much more is that aid and assistance meet for the ministers of these days / wherein their gifts of discretion and knowledge / and dyligence / are not so plentiful. For if they whose eye sight was so clear to perceive / whose hands so nimble to execute / had need for their aid / of other eyes & other hands / then the ministers now / whose eyes are dimmer / and hands heavier then theirs were / have much more need of this aid then they had.

Agayne / if S. Paul did charge the persecuted / & therefore pore churches / with the fineding and providing for the seniors in every church (as it appeareth in the Epistle to Timothy / where he saith that Elders which rule well / are worthy double honor / whereby he signifieth a plentiful reward / and such as may be fully sufficient for them and their households / as when he biddeth that the widow which served the church in attending upon the sick / and upon the strangers should be honored / that is / have that wherewith she might honestly and soberly live) if I say Saint Paul would charge the churches then with maintaining the elders / which being poor / were not sometimes hable to live without some relief from the church / because they were compelled oftentimes to leave their own affairs / to wait of the affairs of the church: how much more ought there now to be seniors / when the churches be in peace / and therefore not so pore / and when there may be chosen such for the most part throughout the realm / as are able to live without charging the church any whit / as the practice of these days doth manifestly declare.

And if S. Paul that was so desirous to have the gospel adapanon, that is / free and without charges as much as is possible / and so loath to lay any burden upon the churches / especially those which were poor / did notwithstanding enjoin the maintenance of the elders unto the churches poor and persecuted / how much more shall we think / that his mind was that the Churches which live in peace / and are rich / and may have this office without charge / ought to receive this order of ancients?

Moreover those that be learned know / that the government of the church which was in the apostles times / being partly in respect of the people that had to do in the elections and other things popular: partly in respect of the pastors and ancients Aristocratical / that is the rule of the best: I say they know that these governments do easily declyne into their contraries / and by reason thereof both the government of those which were most virtuous / might easily be changed into the government of few of the richest / or of greatest power / and the populare estate might easily pass to a confused tumulte. Now this incommodity were they more subject unto under a tyrant / then under a godly prince. For they had no civil magistrate which might correct and reform those declyninges when they happened. For the tyrants did not know of it / and if they had known of it / they would have been glad to see the churches go to wrack. Therefore now we have a godly civil magistrate / which both will & ought to remedy such declinings & conversions of good government into evil / it followeth that this estate & government by ancients / is rather to be used under a Christian prince then under a tyrant.

Besides this / in the time of persecution all assemblies of divers together were dangerous and put them all in hazard of their life which did make those assemblies: And therefore if the pastor alone might have ordered and determined of things pertaining to the church by him self / it had been less danger to him / and more safety for others of the Church. And therefore if the seniors were then thought meet to govern the church / when they could not come together to exercise their functions without danger / much more ought they to be under a Christian prince / when they may meet together without danger.

M. Doctor proceedeth / & saith it cannot be governed in a whole realm / as it may be in a city or town. This government by seniors is not only in one city / but also hath been of late throughout the whole realm of France / where there were any churches: and M. Doctor confesseth that it was in all the primitive churches / and therefore not only in one realm / but almost throughout the whole world / and therefore the large spreading of the church / cannot hynder it. So that the difference lieth still in the peace and persecution of the Church / and not in the capacity and largeness of the place where the churches abide. So might one reason against the lawful estate of a Monarchy: For he might say that although the rule of one be needful and convenient in a household / yet it is not convenient in a town / and although it be convenient in a town / yet it is not in a city / and although in a city / yet not in a realm.

To be short saith he / when he can say no more / it cannot be governed when it is full of hypocrites / Papists / Atheists / and other wicked persons / as in the times of persecution / when there were few or none such. I have shown before / how great want of knowledge it bewrayeth / to say that Papists and Atheists be of the church / and I love not as Master Doctor doth to use often repetition / but if there be now moe hypocrites & other wicked and unruly parsones in y ^e church / then there were in the time of persecution (which I will not deny) thē there is greater cause now / why there should be seniors in every church / then there was then when there were fewer. For the more naughty persons / and the greater disorders there be / the more aid and help hath the pastor need to have / both to find out their disorders / and also when they have found them out / to judge of the quality of them / and after also to correct them with the censures of the church / which standeth in such reprehensions private and open / and excommunication / as I have before rehearsed.

Afterwarde he asketh what seniors may be had in most of the paryshes of England fit for that office? he asketh the same question in the. 133. page / where he also addeth pastors / asking where may be gotten such pastoures as the authors of the Admonition require / when as they require no other then those which the word of God requireth. Well then if this be a good reason why there should be no elders in any church / because fit men are not to be gotten in all paryshes: it followeth by M. Doctors reason / that forasmuch as we have not fit and able pastors for every church / that therefore we ought to have no able pastor in any church.

And if he will grant that we ought to have able pastoures in as many places as they may be gotten: how can he deny / that we should have elders in those churches where fit men may be had. And I say further / where we have an express commandment laid upon us to do a thing / there all disputations must cease / of hardenes / of impossibility / or profit / or else of peace. For first God hath not commanded any orders in his church which are impossible / and if they seem hard / it must be remembered / that the best and excellentest things are hardest / and that there is nothing so hard / which dyligence and travail to bring it to pass / will not overcome. Which thing if it be proved true in worldly affairs / the truth thereof will much more appear in the matters pertaining unto God / considering that if God with his blessing do surmount all the difficultyes in worldly matters which are otherwise hard to be compassed / he will in his own matters / and matters pertaining to his glory / fill up the valleys / although they be never so low / bring down the hylles / although they be never so high / plain the ways be they never so rough: so that he will make of a way not passable in the eyes of flesh / away tracked and easy to go in / and to walk towards that kingdom / whereunto he calleth us. Besides that / I answer wheresoever there is a church / there are the riches of the spirit of God / there is with knowledge / discretion & wisdom / and there are such as * S. Paul calleth wise / and can discern and judge. And we see that when men are called to a lawful and profitable calling / and especially to a public calling / God doth pour on his gifts of that person which is called so plentifully / that he is as it were suddenly made a new man / which if he do in the wicked as Saul was / there is no doubt but he will do it in those / which are with the testimony of the church / and with experience of their former godly behavior / chosen to such offices of weight. So that there is not / nor cannot be any want to obey God's commandment / and to establish the order in the church which God hath appointed / but our own either negligence and slothfulness / or fearfulness / or ambition / or some other leaven which we nourish within our selves. It is true / that we ought to be obedyent unto the civil magistrate / which governeth the church of God in that office which is committed unto him / and according to that calling. But it must be remembered / that cyuil magistrates must govern it according to the rules of God prescribed in his word / & that as they are nourises / so they be servants unto the church / and as they rule in the church / so they must remember to subject them selves unto the church / to submit their scepters / to throw down their crowns / before the church / yea as the Prophet speaketh / to lick the dust of the feet of the church. Wherein I mean not / that the church doth either wring the scepters out of Princes hands / or taketh their crowns from their heads / or that it requireth Princes to lick the dust of her feet (as the Pope under this pretence hath done) but I mean as y ^e Prophet meaneth / that whatsoever magnificence / or excellencye / or pomp / is either in them or in their estates and common wealths / which doth not agree with the simplicity / and in the judgment of the world) poor and contemptible estate of the church / that that they will be content to lay down.

And here cometh to my mind / that wherewith the world is now deceived / and wherewith M. doctor goeth about both to deceive him self and others to / in that he thinketh that the church must be framed according to the common wealth / and the church government according to the civil government / which is as much to say / as if a man should fashion his house according to his hāgings / when as in deed it is clean contrary / that as the hangings are made fit for the house / so the common wealth must be made to agree with the church / and the government thereof with her government. For as the house is before the hangings / & therefore the hangings which come after / must be framed to the house which was before: so the church being before there was any common wealth / and the common wealth coming after / must be fashioned and made suitable unto the church. Otherwyse God is made to give place to men / heaven to earth / and religion is made (as it were) a rule of Lesbia / to be applied unto any estate of common wealth whatsoever.

Seeing that good men / that is to say the church / are as it were the foundation of the world / it is meet that the common wealth which is built upon that foundation / should be framed according to the church / & therefore those voices ought not to be heard / this order will not agree with our common wealth / that law of God is not for our state / this form of government will not match with the policy of this realm.

Now to come again to M. Doctors reasons / he saith in the. 133. page / that if they urge governors because they are spoken of in the. 12. to the Corin. then they may as well urge the power to work miracles / the gift of healing. &c. for that they are likewise reckoned up in the same place. But doth not M. doctor know / that although some things be extraordinarye / and for a time / yet other some things are ordinary / and to endure always? Will he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarye / therefore the teachers which are there reckoned together with the gift of working miracles and of healing are extraordinary? hath he forgotten that he (in deed untruly) made before the office of Apostles and Prophets / and Evangelists / a perpetual office / and yet they are there joined with these gifts which were but for a time / and therefore it is a very absurd argument to say / that for that some thing reckoned with governors / is for a time / and extraordinary / therefore the governors be so. As for Musculus authority / which is / that the times do change the orders / besides that I have answered before / and besides that he doth not speak it of the Elders / I have proved that it can have no place here / for so much as the Elders are necessary / and commanded in the scripture.

Unto the authors of the Admonition saying that it is easier to overthrow by bryving / one man / then the faith and piety of a godly company: he answereth / that so it should come to pass / that the moe that ruled / the better estate it should be / and so the populare estate should be the best. But where do the authors of the admonition say / that the more that rule / the better it is? is it all one to say / that the government of a few of the best / is better then the government of one / and to say / the more that rule the better? If it were to the purpose / it might be shown both by Diuinitye and by Philosophye / which M. Doctor speaketh of / that that estate which he meaneth / is not the best: and I have in a word before spoken of it / where I declared that the mixed estate is best / both by the example of the kingdom of Christ / and also of this our realm. It is sufficient now to admonyshe you / that although it be granted that the government of one / be the best in the common wealth / yet it cannot be in the church. For the Prince may well be Monarche immediately between God & the common wealth / but no man can be Monarche between God & his church but Christ / which is the only head thereof. Therefore the Monarchy over the whole church / and over every particular church / and over every singular member in the church / is in Christ alone.

Last of all / to prove that there ought to be no seniors in the church under a Christian prince / he citeth Ambroses authority both in the. 114. and. 132. pages / which saith that the synagogue or church of the Jews / & after that the church of the chrystians had seniors / without whose counsel nothing was done in the church: whereupon he concludeth / that for as much as they were not in Ambrose time / therefore they were not under a Christian prince. And here M. doctor hath in one sentence proclaimed both his great ignorance in the whole story of the church / and withal either a marvelous abusion / and suffering him self to be misled by some vnaduysed prompter / or subtle fox that thought to deceyne him / or else a notable evil conscience / which wrestleth against the truth. Hys ignorance doth appear partly in that he saith / that because there were no seniors in Amb. church / and in those churches about him / therefore there was none at all: but moste manifestly in that he saith / for so much as there were no seniors in Amb. time / therefore there was none under a Christian Prince / as though there were not many years before Amb. time Christian Emperors / when as between the time of S. Ambrose being bishop / and the time of Phillip successor of Gordias the first Christian Emperor / there is more then a. 150. years / and between the time of Constantine the Emperor / and the time of Ambrose being bishop / there be above. 80. years. And if M. Doctor had ever red the ecclesiastical stories / he mought have found easily the eldership moste flourishyng in Constantine's time / and other times / when as the peace of the chrystians was greatest.

And that the presbytery or eldership endured in the church after Ambrose time / and in the time of peace / and as it is very like in Amb. time / although not where he was / it may be shown plainly by Jerome (which followed Ambrose immediatlye) who in his third chapter upon Isaiah / saith that they had also the presbytery or eldership in the church. The same might be shown by diverse other testimonies / which I omit / because that it may appear by the former treatise touching the election of the minister / that this order of eldership continued in the church diverse hundredth years after Ambrose time / even as long almost as there was any sound part of the church / from the head to the heel. Now I have shown the ignorance / it remaineth to show howe that either M. Doctor was marvelously him self abused / or else desireth to abuse other. For if whereas he toke half Ambrose sentence / he had taken the other half with him / and had not suddenly stopped his breath that he should speak no more / in stead of a false witness against the eldership / he should have brought forth as clear and as flat a witness for the proof of them / as a man could desire out of an ancient writer. The whole sentence is this / speaking of this office of the elders / (although not upon so good occasion) thus he saith: Whervpon the sinagoge / and after the church had elders / without whose counsel nothing was done in the church / which Elders I know not by what negligence they are worn out / unless it be through the slothfulness of the doctors / or rather through their pride / whilst they only would seem to be somewhat.

Now that I have shown the place / I will say no more / I will leave it to M. Doctor to think of it in his chamber by him self / and so will conclude this question: that for so much as this order is such / as without which / the principal offices of charity cannot be exercysed: and that it is that which is commanded by the scriptures / approved and received by all the churches in the Apostles times / and many hundredth years after in the most flouryshing churches / both in time of peace / & in time of persecution: and that there are greater causes why it should be in the time of peace / then in time of persecution / why rather under a Christian prince / then under a tyrant / why rather now / then in y ^e apostles times / that in consideration of these things / the eldership is necessary / and such an order as the church ought not to be without. And so also is answered the third question / that for so much as they were church officers / and over the people in matters pertaining to God / & such as watched over the souls of men / that therefore although they were not pastors to preach the word / yet were they no lay men (as they term them) but ecclesiastical persons. The rest comprehended in these sections / is answered before / being matter which pertained unto the archbishop.

Now I return back again to Excommunicacion / which M. Doctor thinketh to be the only discipline in the church / but he should understand / that beside that parte of private discipline / (which is ordinarily and daily to be exercised by everyone of the pastors & elders / as Admonition and reprehension) there are .iii. princypal parts / which are exercised of them jointly and together / whereof the first is the election or choice / and the abdication or putting out of Ecclesiastical officers. The second is in excommunication of the stubborn / or absolution of the reap̄taunt. The third is the decision of all such matters as do rise in the church / either touching corrupt manners / or perverse doctrine.

As touching the election / and consequently the throwing out / it hath been shown before / that together with the church / the eldership hath the principal sway. For the decision of controuersyes whē they rise / it may appear in the. 15. of the Acts / that the Presbyterie or Eldershyp of the church hath to determine of that also. Now it remaineth here / that whereas M. Doctor saith that the Excommunication / and consequently the absolution or restoring to the church again / doth pertain only to the minister / that I show that the Presbyterye or eldership / and the whole church also / hath interest in the Excommunication / and consequently in the absolution or restoring unto the church. But here by the way it is to be noted / that in saying that it belongeth to the minister / he confesseth the dysorder in our church / wherein this power is taken away from the minister / and given to the bishop and his officers.

Now that this charge of excommunication belongeth not unto one / or to the minyster / but chiefly to the eldership and pastor / it appeareth by that which the authors of the admonition allege out of S. Matthew / which place I have proved before to be necessarily understanded of the elders of the church. It is most absurdly said of M. doctor in the. 135. page / that by the church is understanded either my Lord's grace / or the bishop of the diocese / or the Chancellor or Commissarye. And that when a man complaineth unto one of these / he may be well said to complain unto the church: which is the more intolerable / for that being so strange a saying / and such as may astonyshe all that hear it / he neither confirmeth it by any reason / or like phrase of scripture / or by the authority of any godly or approved writer old or new / which notwithstanding he seeketh for so diligently / and turneth the commentaries in his study so painfully / when he can have but one against twentye / and but a syllable where he cannot have a sentence. It may be the clearlyer understanded / that the presbytery or eldership / had the chief stroke in this excommunication / if it be observed / that this was the policy and discipline of the Jews / and of the smagogue from whence our sauyoure Christ toke this / and translated it unto this church / that when any man had don anything that they held for a fault / that then the same was punished and censured by the Elders of the church / according to the quality of the fault / as it may appear in S. Matthew. For although it be of some (and those very learned) expounded of the civil judgment / yet for so much as the Jews had nothing to do with civil judgments (the same being altogether in the hands of the Romaines) and that the word san • drim, corrupted of the Greek word synedrion, which S. Matthew useth / is known by those that have skill in the Rabbins / and especially the Jews Talmud, to signify the ecclesiastical governors / there can be no doubt but he meaneth the ecclesiastical censures. And if the fault were judged very great / then the sentence of Excommunication was awarded by the same elders / as appeareth in S. John. And this was the cause why our savior Christ spake so shortly of this matter in the. 18. of S. Matthew / without noting the circumstances more at large / for that he spake of a thing which was well known and used amongst the Jews whom he spake unto. And that this was the meaning of our savior Christ in those words / it may appear by the practice which is set forth in the Epistles to the Corinthians. For it is certain that S. Paul did both understand and observe the rule of our savior Christ. But he communicateth this power of Excommunication with the church / and therefore it must needs be the meaning of our savior Christ / that the excommunication should be by many / and not by one / and by the church / and not by the minister of the church alone. For he biddeth the church of Corinth twice in the first Epistle / once by a Metaphor / another time in plain words / that they should excommunicate the incestuous person. By metaphor / saying: (purge out your old leaven) in plain and flat words / when he saith (take away that wicked man from amongst you.) And in the second Epistle understanding of the repentance of that man / he entreateth them that they would receive him in again / showing that he was content to release the bond and chain of his excommunication / so that they would do the same / and therefore considering the absolution / or reconciliation of the excommunicate / doth pertain unto the church / it followeth that the excommunication doth in like manner appertain unto it.

Now / whereas M. Doctor upon those words of S. Paul / that he being absent in body / and present in spirit / had determined. &c. concludeth y ^t the right of excommunication was in S. Paul / and not in the rest / it is as much as if he should say / S. Paul as much as lay in him excommunicated / therefore s. Paul excommunicated: or S. Paul excommunicated / therefore the church did not. For what if S. Paul did excommunicate him so much as lay in him / should he therefore have been excommunicated / if the church of Corinth / and the minyster there would have admitted him to the supper / and not abstain from familiare companying with him? You will say he should have been bound in heaven and before God / although the church of Corinth had not put him forth. It is true that the apostles denunciation of God's vengeance upon the impenitent sinner / is ratified in heaven / and so should he also have been if S. Paul had said nothing / and yet S. Paul did not excommunicate the incestuous person / but so much as lay in him / and as far as his right stretched: not being therefore yet excommunicated by S. Paul / it followeth that the church had a stroke in the excommunication. Again / to prove that the church hath nothing to do with excommunication / it is not enough to say that S. Paul had the right of excommunication: But you should have shown that he only had it / and then you are manifestly convicted by S. Paul's own words / which joineth the church with him in that excommunication / saying that he had decreed that the doer of that fact (by his spirit / and them gathered together in the name of Jesus Christ / and by his power) should be given to Satan. And if the right of excommunication were only in S. Paul / how is it that you said before / that it is in the minister of the church? had the minister of the church of Corinth nothing to do? And if it were in S. Paul alone / why doth he chide with the church / that they had not already excommunicated him before he wrote unto them to signify his will to excommunicate? or if it were in the minister of the church only / why w •• S. Paul chide and sharply rebuke the church / for that the incestuous man was not cast forth? Why doth he charge the Corinthians with that which was the only fault of the minister?

An other objection M. doctor hath out of the .16. of S. Matthew / and the 20. of John / in which places because he giveth power to the .xii. to bind and to lose / M. Doctor will conclude that they only have power to bind and to lose. Solomon saith that the just man is first the accuser of himself / and therefore it behooved M. doctor or ever he should have accused the authors of the Admonition of dalying and irreverent handling of the scriptures / to have first of all spoken to him self / and have strickē him self upon the thigh. For if this be not to abuse the scriptures / I know not what is to abuse them / for to let pass that some and of the ancient writers do expound the place of S. Matthew of every member of Christ / and of as many as have faith to confess Christ to be the some of God / and so by that means to have power of excommunication / I say to let that go / M. doctor might easily know if he would / that in that pla • e our savior Christ speaketh of the binding and losing which •• y y ^e preaching of the word of God / standing in threats and promises / and therefore that binding pertaineth only unto the ministers / to whom the preaching doth only belong. But in the .18. of S. Matthew where he speaketh of the binding and losing by excommunication and receiving to the church again / there he attributeth this power unto the church. He hath another objection out of S. Paul to Timothy / where for that it is said that s. Paul did excommunicate Hymineus and Alexander / he concludeth after his old manner / that therefore he only excommunicated. But for so much as I have proved that both the rule of Christ / & the practice of S. Paul according to that rule / be otherwise / it cannot be that S. Paul did excommunicate him self alone those persons: for then he should disagree both with our savior Christ and with him self. But as I have shown before in other ecclesiastical actions and exercises of discipline / that one man is said to do that which was done of many / for because one was moderator of that action or exercise: so s. Paul here saith that he did excommunicate / not that he did it by him self alone / but because he was president & chief in that action. And although it should be granted (which cannot) that S. Paul did excommunicate himself alone (being an apostle / or for one time) yet it neither followeth that the bishop or minister may do that which the apostle did / or that he may do continually y ^e which was done but once and extraordinarily. As for the place of Titus the third / it maketh nothing to excommunication / unless you would conclude that for that S. Paul biddeth Titus to trouble himself no more with confuting an obstinate heretic / therefore he biddeth him excommunicate an heretic by him self. As touching Bafiles place in the second book of Offices when the book cometh forth & is Printed / then it shall be answered / as for me I know of none such that is extant now. To the rest I will answer with this protestation / that if all men should do contrary to the order of God / yet their authority or example ought not to have the weight of a fether / which I have said before / & do understand it in all places where I do not express it / & with this I come to M. doctors authorities.

And as for Theodoretus bishop of Laodicea / which Sozomene maketh mention of in his sixthe book / I find none such / but there is mentioned of one Theodotus / who is said to have separated or excommunicated Apollinaris / but it doth not appear there that he alone of his own authority did excommunicate him. And there be great reasons in that Chapter / to prove that he did it not of his own authority / for immediately after his heresy was known / Damasus bishop of Rome / and Peter bishop of Alexandria / caused a sinode to be gathered at Rome / where his heresy was condemned. Now for so much as the custom of synodes and councils is / when they condemn the heresies / to excommunicate the heretics / it is to be thought that that council did excommunicate him / and that Theodotus bishop of Laodicea / did execute that decree and excommunication. And in deed Sozomene doth so expound him self / when immediately after he had said that he did excommunicate him / he addeth acoinonetoh auton apophainei, which is / that he declared him excommunicate / which in deed properly belongeth to the minister / when the excommunication is decreed by those to whō it appertaineth. Whych thing may yet better appear by the manner of speech which is used in another place / where speaking of • ictor excommunycating Theodotus / he uttereth it by this apekeryxe, which is to promulgate or pronounce the sentence which was decreed by others. As for Amb. although he be greatly commended for excommunicating the Emperor / yet he was never commended / for that he did excommunicate him himself alone: and if he did excommunicate him himself alone / yet his fault was the les / for so much as he being desirous of an eldership / could not as it seemeth by his complaint (which I have spoken of before) ••• aine one. And although the stories do not make mention y ^• there were others / whose authority came into this excommunication / yet it followeth not y ^• there were no other. And how often will you stomble at that / which you do so sharply reprove in others / which is in making of arguments of authority negatively? And if you will not grant this manner of reasoning in the scripture / in matters pertaining to the government of the church / which are all comprehended in the scripture / how would you reason of a common story / which neither can / nor doth profess to speak all those things which fall into that matter which it writeth of? But what if so be it be proved that Ambrose did not this of his own authority / but by the authority also of others / will you then confess that he is commended of all those which write stories for so doing / and confess that the use and practice of the primitive church was far from this that is now? For proof whereof I will give you a place which Ambrose the best witness of this matter hath in one of his epistles / where he showeth that assone as the murder which Theodosius had caused to be done at the city of Thessalonica was heard / by and by the bishops of France came and there was holden a Synod: where also Ambrose saith / that his communicating with Theodosius / could not absolve him (for that as it might appear) the bishops in that synod had in excommunicating him / ordained that he should not be absolved until such time as he had done repentance / which he did afterward with confession of his fault before the congregation / and asking forgiveness of it. So it appeareth that that which he did / he did it by the sentence of the synod / and not of his own authority alone. In the. 220. & 221. pages / he speaketh of this thing a fresh / but hath no new matter / but maketh a bare rehearsal of the places of the admonition / asking after his accustomed manner of confuting / what maketh this or what proveth that? only whereas he said before / and proved (as he thought) that the minister had only to do with excommunication / being pressed there / by the admonition either to defend or renounce his Chauncellors. &c. he had rather deny both the truth and himself / then he would have any of that horrible confusion and profanation of the holy discipline of God (brought in by popery threatening the overthrow of the whole church / & serving for nothing but for the nourishing of the ambition and idleness of a few) driven out of the church. Of the which I will upon occasion speak a word / if first I show that the use of the auncyent church hath been not to permit the excommunication to one / but that the sentence thereof should come from the governors and elders of the church / unto whom that did especially appertain. Although I cannot pass by that which M. doctor saith / that for so much as the authors of the Admonition had alleged the words (tell the church) to prove the interest of the church in excommunication / that therefore they could not use the same to prove the interest of the pastor / as who should say that the pastor is not one of the church. But of the absurdity of this / I have spoken sufficiently before / and how all men do see the vanity of this reason / that because y ^t people have an interest by this place / therefore the pastor hath none. But I come to show the use of the primitive church in this matter / whereof we have a manifest testimony in Tertullian. If (saith he) there be any which hath committed such a fault that he is to be put away from the partakyng of the prayer of the church / and from all holy matters or affairs: there do bear rule or be presidents certain of the most approved ancients or elders / which have obtained this honor / not by money / but by good report. And that the ancients had the ordering of these things / and the people's consent was required / and that if the case were a very difficult case / it was referred unto the synodes or councils / and that the ministers did not take upon them of their own authority to excommunicate / and that those which did receive the excommunicate without the knowledge & consent of the church were reprehended / it may appear almost in every page of Cyprians Epistles / and namely in these which I have noted in the margent.

In Augustine's time it appeareth also / that the consent of the church was required / for in the third boke against the epistle of Parmenian / he showeth that if the multitude of the church be not in that fault for which one is to be excommunicated / that then it helpeth much to make the party both afraid and ashamed / that he be excommunicated or anathematised (as he calleth it) by all the church / and in his books de Baptis. contra Donatistas, in diverse places / he is so far from permitting the excommunication to one man / y ^t he seemeth to fall into the other extremity / which is to make the estate of the church to populare / and the people to have too great a sway. For there he showeth / that if the most of the people be infected with the fault which is to be punished by excommunication / that then no excommunication ought to be attempted / for because a sufficient number of voices will not be obtained for the excommunication. By which testimonies / besides the institution of God / & the practice of the churches in the apostles times / appeareth manifestly what hath ben the use of the churches touching excommunication / as long as there was any purity in the church. And it is to be observed here / that both in this parte of the discipline / and also in all other partes of it (as I have shown) as in harder and difficulter causes / things were referred unto the Synods provincial / national / or general / as the case required: so if the elders of any church shall determine anything contrary to the word of God / or inconueniently in any matter that falleth into their determination / the parties which are grieved / may have recourse for remedy / unto the elders and pastoures of divers churches / that is to say unto Synods of shires / or dioceses / or provinces / or nations of as great or of as small compass as shall be thought convenient by the church / according to the difficulty or weight of the matters / which are in controversy. Whych meetings ought to be as often as can be conveniently / not only for the decision of such difficultyes which the several presbyteries cannot so well judge of / but also to the ende that common counsel might be taken for the best remeady of the vices or incommodities which either the churches be in / or in danger to be in. And as those things which cannot be decided by the Eldershyp of the churches are to be reserved unto the knowledge of some Synod of a shire or diocese: so those which for their hardness cannot be there decided / must be brought into the Synods of larger compass as I have shown to have been done in the apostles times / and in the churches which followed them long after.

These things standing in this sort / all those Courtes of bishops and archbyshoppes must needs fall / which were by Antichrist erected against this lawful jurisdiction of Eldership / as the court of faculties / and those which are holden by chauncellors / commissaries / officials / and such like / the describyng of the corruptions whereof / would require a whole boke / of which I will note the principal heads and sums.

First / for y ^e they enter into an office which pertaineth not unto them / but to every particular church / and especially to the eldership or governors of the church / and therefore although they should do nothing but that which were good / lawful / and godly / yet can they not approve their labors unto men / much les to God / putting their sickle in another man's harnest. For neither by the truth of the word of God doth that appertain unto them / neither by M. Doctors own judgment (if his yea were yea / and his nay nay) considering that he said before / that this jurisdiction belongeth to the ministers. And although it should pertain unto the Bishop / (as he is called) to whom notwithstanding it doth not appertain) yet were it not lawful for him to translate this office unto another / and to appoint one to do it when he lysteth / no more then he can appoint them to do his other offices of ministering / as preaching the word / and ministering the sacraments.

An other thing is / that in these courts (which they cal spiritual) they take the knowledge of matters / which are mere civil / thereby not only perverting the order which God hath appointed / in severing the civil causes from the ecclesiastical / but iustling also with the civil magistrate / and thrusting him from the jurisdiction / which appertaineth unto him / as the causes of the contracts of marriage / of diuorces / of willes & testaments / w ^t diverse such other like things. For although it appertain to the church and the governors thereof / to show out of the word of God which is a lawful contract or just cause of divorce / and so forth / yet the judicial determination / and definitive sentences of all these / do appertain unto the civil magistrate. Heerevnto may be added / that all their punishments almost are penalties of money / which can by no means appertain to the church / but is a thing merely civil.

Thirdly / as they handle matters which do not appertain unto the Ecclesiastical jurisdiction / so those which do appertain unto the church / they do turn from their lawful institution / unto other ends not sufferable / which M. doctor him self doth confess in excommunicating for money. &c.

Last of all they take upon them those things / which are neither lawful for civil nor ecclesiastical jurisdiction / nor simply for any man to do / of which sort diverse are reckoned up by the admonition / and same confessed by M. Doctor. I will not here speak of the unfitness of those which are chief officers in these courts / that the most of them are either papists / or bribers / or drunkards / (I know what I write) or epicures and such as live of benefices and prebends in England or in Ireland / doing nothing of those things which appertain unto them / and of other such naughty persons which are not only not meet to be governors in the church / but which in any reformed church / should not be so much as of the church. I speak not of all / I doubt not but there be some do y ^e which they do of conscience / and with mind to help forward the Church / which I trust will (when the Lord shall give them more knowledge) keep them selves in their vocations / and being men for their gifts apt and able either to serve the Church or the common wealth in some other calling / will rather occupy their gifts there / then where they have no ground to assure them selves / that they do please God. Now I will take a short survey of that which M. doctor allegeth to prove his offices of master of faculties / chancellors. &c. First he saith in y ^e . 117 page out of the Ancyran council / y ^t there were vicars of bishops / where although y ^• name be not found of chācclors. &c. yet there is (saith he) the office. What vicar s. Paul's B. may have / and in what case / I have shown before / where I have proved the necessary residence of every pastor in his flock. But I will note here how M. Doctor both go about to abuse his reader in these vicares. And first where there were three editions / of which one only maketh mention of these vicares he took that & left the other / which is to be observed / for that this variety of editions rose of the diverse understanding of the greek word (chorepiscopos,) which may be taken either for him that is bishop for another / and in his place / or for him that is bishop in the country / that is in some town which is no city / so that chorepiscopus, was opposed unto the bishop which was of some city. And if it be so taken / then here is no proof for the vicarse of bishops. But howsoever it be / it shall appear that the names of chauncelors and / chorepiscopos, do not so much differ / as the offices and functions of them. For it appeareth in the same Council and Canon / that they were like the. 70. disciples / that they had also some care to provide for the poor / and that they were such as did minister the sacraments. And in another Council / they have authority given them to make subdeacons / exorcists / and readers. I know this was a corruption of the ministry / but yet all men see / how Master Doctor looketh as it were a far of upon things / and therefore taketh a man for a molehill / when he would make us believe that these were chauncelors. &c.

In the. 125. page to the admonition desyring that these may be removed and the eldership establyshed according to God's order / M. Doctor answereth / that that were to place in stead of wise and discrete men / unlearned / ignorant and unapt to rule. Let Master Doctor take heed / least in alowing so well of the popish ceremonies / not only as tolerable / but as fit / and then acquainting him self with the papists manner of speaking / in saying that the people be ignorant and unlearned / he fall or over he be aware into some worse thing. Moses in Deuteronomy / and Solomon in his proverbs / place the principal wisdom in keeking God's commandments and in fearing God. And David saith / that the secretes and the privy council of the Lord / is known to those which fear him / and I have shown out of S. Paul / that he giveth to the spiritual man great discretion and judgment of things. If therefore there be in every church which fear God and keep his commandments / there are both wise and learned & discrete men / and therefore not to be spoken of so contemptuously as M. Doctor speaketh. And God be praised there are numbers in the church / that are hable to be teachers unto most of the chauncelors / in any matter pertaining to the church / and are hable to give a ryper judgment in any ecclesiastical matter / then the most part of them can.

And besides that the choicest are to be taken to this office / this ought not to be forgotten / that seeing good success of things depend upon the blessing of God / and that blessing followeth the church when the Lord's order is kept / simple men which carry no great countenance or show / will undoubtedly do more good unto the church / having a lawful calling / then those of great port which have no such calling.

In the. 228. page he thinketh the Archbyshoppes Courte necessary / but bringeth no reason / and further confesseth him self ignorant of the estate of it / and therefore I know not from whence that good opinion of his should come / unless it be from thence that he lyketh of all things be they never so evil which the admonition missyketh. The rest which M. D. hath of this matter is nothing else but great and high words. And as for the Canon law / it is known what a stroke it beareth with us / and that a few cases excepted it remaineth in her former effect.

Unto the. 149. and. 150. pages.

THe Admonition hath no such thing / as M. Doctor chargeth the authors thereof with / that they did ever allow of the book of service. It saith they bare with it / and used it so far / as they might / and therefore now when it came to the approving of it by subscription / they refused / & there is no man which cannot understand / that it is one thing to bear with a thing / and another to approve it / and therefore to bear / and to use it so far as might be / may well agree with their refusal of subscription / so that M. Doctors note is not worth the noting. The Apostles did bear with the infirmity of the Jews addicted to the observation of the ceremonial law / yet they never allowed that infirmity / and they were so far from approving it by subscribing / that they wrote against it. Those (saith M. D. which authorized this book / were studious of peace / and of building of Christ's church / therefore they that speak against it (which he calleth defacing) are disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. So I will reason: Gideon was studious of peace / and of building of the church / therefore they which spake against the Ephod which he made / were disturbers of the peace / and destroyers of the church. We speak against images in churches / and consubstantiation in the sacraments / and such like / which Luther being studious of peace / and of the building of the church did hold / and yet we are not therefore disturbers of peace / or destroyers of the church. Although they were excellent personnages / yet their knowledge was in part / & although they brought many things to our light / yet they being sent out in the morning / or ever the sun of the gospel was risen so high / might oversee many things which those that are not so sharp of fight / as they were / may see / for because that which they want in the sharpness of sight / they have by the benefit and clearness of the sun and of the light. They sealed not the book of service with their blood (as M. Doctor saith) for some that suffered for the truth / declared openly their myslyking of certain things in it / and as for the other they could never die for that book / more then for the lyturgie used in the French church / or at Geneva. For they received not the sentence of condemnation / because they approved that book / but because they improved the articles drawn out of the mass book. And if they had died for that book (as in deed they died for the book of God) yet the authority of their martyrdom / could not take away from us this lyberty that we have to inquire of the cause of their death. Justin and Cyprian were godly martyrs / & yet a man may not say / that they sealed their errors which they wrote with their blood / or with this glory of their martyrdom / prejudice those which speak or write against their errors: for this is to oppose the blood of men / to the blood of the son of God. For the papists triumph I have answered before / and I will not strive about the Goats wolle / who is the opponent / & who the respondent in this difference.

From the. 151. page unto the. 171. page / all is answered where these things which are here joined / are severally handled / now unto that in the. 171. and. 172. pages.

I answer / y ^e although it be meet / that as we hope that the homylies which are made already be godly / so those that shall be made hereafter / shall be likewise: yet considering the mutability of men / and that oftentimes to the worse / it is not meet / nay it is merely unlawful / to subscribe to a blank / seeing that we cannot witness or allow of those things which we have not seen nor heard. The place unto the Corinthes / is the same unto the Romans / and M. Doctor approving one / hath no cause to find fault with the other. For the homylies first of all I have shown / how absurd a saying / and how unlike a dyuine it is / to match reading of homylies / with preaching of sermons. For if the reading of the holy scriptures is nothing so fruitful as the preaching of them / much less is the reading of homylies to be for their fruit matched with preaching of sermons. There remaineth that I show briefly / that neither the homylies nor the Apochripha / are at all to be red in the church. Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lord kept with his people in times past / when he commanded that no vessel / nor no instrument either besom / or flesh hook / or pan. &c. should come into the temple / but those only which were sanctified / & set apart for that use. And in the book of Numbers / he will have no other trumpets blown to cal y ^e people together / but those only which were set apart for y ^• purpose. What should the meaning of this law be? The matter of other common vessels & trumpets / was the same oftentimes which theirs was / the same form / also & the other beesomes and hooks / and trumpets hable to serve for the uses of sweeping and sounding. &c. as well as those of the temple / and as those which were set apart / wherefor mought not these then as well be used in the temple as others? Forsothe / because the Lord would by these rudiments and pedagogy teache / that he would have nothing brought into the church / but that which he had appointed / no not although they seemed in the judgment of men / as good as those things which God him self had placed there. Which thing is much more to be observed in this matter / seeing that the homilies red (be they never so learned and pithye) neither the Apocrypha / are to be compared either in goodness within thenselves / either in fruit or in effect towards the hearer / with the authentical scriptures of God. Now / if a man will say that the Homilies do explain & lay open the scriptures / I answer that the word of God also is plain and easy to be understanded / and such as giveth understanding to idiotes & to the simple. And if there be hardness in them / yet the promise of the assistance of God's spirit / that God hath given to the reading of the scriptures in the church / which he hath not given to homilies / or to the Apocrypha / will be able to weigh with the hardness / and to overcome it / so that there shall easily appear greater profit to come unto y ^e church by reading of the scriptures / then by reading of homilies.

Besides this / the policy of the church of God in times past is to be followed herein / that for the expounding of darker places / places of more easines ought to be joined together / as in y ^e persecutiō of Antiochus / where they could not have the commodity of preaching / the Jews did appoint at their meetings always a piece of the law to be red / & with all a piece of the prophets which expounded y ^• piece of the law / rather then to bring in interpretations of men to be red. And because I am entered into that matter / here cometh to be considered the practice also of the church both before our savior Christ's coming / and after / that when the churches met together / there is nothing mentioned but the reading of y ^e scriptures / for so is the Liturgy described in the Acts. And it is not to be thought / but that they had those which made expositions of the law and the prophets. And besides that / they had Onkelos the Calday paraphrast / both Galatine / & Rabbi Moses (surnamed Maymon) write / that Jonathan an nother of the Calday paraphrasts floryshed in our savior Christ's time / whose writings and paraphrases upon the scriptures / are esteemed comparable in that kind of paraphrasticall writing / with any which hath labored that ways. And if any men's writings were to be red in the church / those paraphrases which in explanyng y ^e scripture / go least from it / and which keep not only the number of sentences / but almost the very number of words / were of all most fit to be red in the church. Seeing therefore (I say) the church of God then abstained from such interpretations in the church / and contented it self with the scriptures / it cannot be but a moste dangerous attempt / to bring any thing into the church to be red besides the word of God. Thys practice continued still in the churches of God after the apostles times / as may appear by the second Apology of Justin Martyr / which showeth that their manner was to read in the church the monuments of the prophets and of the apostles / and if they had red any thing else / it is to be supposed that he would have set it down / considering that his purpose there / is to show the whole order which was used in their churches then. The same may appear in the first Homilye of Oregine upon Exodus / and upon the Judges. And as for M. Bucer's authority / I have shown before how it ought to be wayghed / & here also it is suspicious: for that it is said that his advise was / when the lord should bless the realm with moe learned preachers / that then order should be taken to make more homilyes / which should be red in the church unto the people: As if M. Bucer did not know / that there were then learned preachers enough in the realm / which were able to make homilies / so many as the volume of them might easily have exceeded the volume of the Bible / if the multitude of homilyes would have done so much good. And if the authority of M. Bucer bear so great a sway with M. Doctor / that upon his credit only without either scripture or reason / or examples of the Churches primitive / or those which are now / he dare thrust into the church homilies / then the authorities of the most ancient & best councils ought to have ben considered / which have given charge / that nothing should be red in the church / but only the canonical scriptures. For it was decreed in the council of Laodicea / y ^e nothing should be red in the church / but the canonical books of the old and new testament / and reckoneth up what they be. Afterward as corruptions grew in the church / it was permitted that homilies might be red by the deacon / when the minister was sick / and could not preach / and it was also in another council of Carthage permitted / that the martyrs lives might be red in the church. But besides the evil success that those decrees had (under pretence whereof the popish legende / and Gregory's homilies. &c. crept in) that use and custom was controlled by other councils / as may appear by the council of Colen / albeit otherwise popish. And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration / that the bringing in of the reading of Martyrs lives into the church / and of the homilies of ancient writers / hath not only by this means iustled w ^t the Bible / but also thrust it clean out of the church / or into a corner where it was not red nor seen / it ought to teach all men to beware of placing any writing or work of men in the church of God / be they never so well learned / as long as the world should endure.

And if any man object / that by this means also is shut out of the church the form of ordinary prayers to be said: I say the case is nothing like / for when we pray we cannot use the words of the scripture / as they orderly lie in the text. But for so much as the church prayeth for diverse things necessary for it / the which are not contained in one or two places of the scripture / and that also there are some things which we have need of / whereof there is no express prayer in the scripture: it is needful / that there be a form of Prayer drawn forth out of the scripture / which the church may use when it meeteth / as the occasion of the time doth require / which necessity cannot be by no means alleged in the reading of Homilies or Apocrypha. Wherevpon appeareth that it is not so well ordained in the church of England / where both Homilies and Apocrypha are red / especially when as diverse chapters of the books called Apocrypha / are lyfted up so high / that they are sometime appointed for extraordinary lessons upon feasts days / wherein the greatest assemblies be made / and some of the chapters of the canonical scripture (as certain chapters of the Apocalypse) quite left out and not red at all.

Unto the two next sections I have answered before / where I have entreated of holy days / and of kneeling at the Communion / it followeth to speak unto the section contained in the. 183. and. 184. pages.

ALthough it will be hard for you to prove that this word (priest) cometh of the Greke word (presbyteros) yet that is not the matter / but the case standeth in this / that for so much as the common and usual speech of England is / to note by the word (priest) not a minister of the gospel / but a sacrificer (which the minister of the gospel is not) therefore we ought not to call the ministers of the gospel (priests) and that this is the English speech / it appeareth by all the English translations / which translate always (hiereis) which were sacrificers (priests) and do not of the other side (for any that ever I red) translate presbyteron, a priest. Seeing therefore a priest with us / and in our tongue / doth signify both by the papists judgment in respect of their abhominable mass / and also by the judgment of the protestant in respect of the beasts which were offered in the law / a sacrificing office (which the minister of the gospel neither doth nor can execute) it is manifest / that it cannot be without great offense so used.

The next three sections I have before answered / where I have spoken of the abuses in baptism / crossing / and interrogatories / it followeth to speak unto the section contained in. 194. 195. &. 196. pa.

IF it be M. Bucer's judgment which is alleged here for the ring / I see that sometimes Homere sleapeth. For first of all I have shown / that it is not lawful to institute new signs and sacraments / and then it is dangerous to do it / especially in this which confirmeth the false and popish opinion of a sacrament / as is alleged by the admonition. And thirdly / to make such fond allegories of the laying down of the money / of the roundnes of the ring / and of the mystery of the fourth finger / is (let me speak it with his good leave) very ridiculous and far unlike him self. And fourthly / that he will have the minister to preach upon these toys / surely it sauoreth not of the learning and sharpness of the judgment of M. Bucer. And whereas M. doctor / upon that s. Peter willeth the husbands to give honor to their wives / would approve this manner of speech in matrimony (with my body I thee worship) he must understand that it is one thing with us to worship / and another thing to honor. For we honor men which we do not worship / and besides that S. Peter speaketh of the honor of the mind / whereby the husband should be moved to bear with the infirmities of his wife / & therefore it is unfitly alleged / to prove that he may worship her with his body.

As for the receiving of the Communion when they be married / that it is not to be suffered (unless there be a general receiving) I have before at large declared / and as for the reason that is fathered of M. Bucer / (which is / that those that be Christians / may not be joined in marriage / but in Christ.) It is very slender and cold / as if the sacrament of the supper were instituted to declare any such thing / or they could not declare their joining together in Christ by no means / but by receiving the supper of the Lord.

To the next section in the. 197. page.

TEll me M. doctor why there should be any such confirmation in the church / being brought in by the feigned Decretal Epistles of the Popes / and no one tittle thereof being once found in the scripture / and seeing that it hath been so horribly abused / and not necessary / why ought it not to be utterly abolyshed? and thirdly / this confirmation hath very dangerous points in it. The first step of popery in this confirmation / is the laying on of hands upon the head of y ^e child / whereby the opinion of it / that it is a sacrament is confirmed / especially when as the prayer doth say / that it is done according to the example of the Apostles / which is a manifest untruth / and taken in deed from the popish confirmation. The seconde is / for that the bishop (as he is called) must be the only minister of it / whereby the popish opinion which esteemeth it above baptism is confirmed. For whilst baptism may be ministered of the minister / and not confirmation / but only of the bishop / there is great cause of suspicion given to think / that baptism is not so precious a thing as confirmation: seeing this was one of the principal reasons / whereby that wicked opinion was establyshed in popery. I do not here speak of the inconvenience / that mē are constrained with charges / to bring their childrē oftentimes half a score miles for that (which if it were nedeful) might be as well done at home in their own parishes. The third is / for y ^• •• the allegation of the seconde cause of the using of the confirmation / the boke saith / that by the imposition of hands and prayer / the children may receive strength and defense against all temptations / whereas there is no promise / that by the laying on of hands upon children / any such gift shall be given / and it maintayneth the popish distinction / that the spirit of God is given at baptism unto the remissyon of sins / and in confirmation unto strength / the which very word (strength) the book alledgeth / and all this M. Doctor confuteth by calling of the authors of the admonition peevish and arrogant.

To the next section contained in the. 198. 199. 200. 201. pages.

LEast M. Doctor (as his common fashyon is when the corruption of any thing is spoken against) say that we condemn burial / I would have him understand / that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried / and that it is mete / that for that cause some reasonable number of those which be the friends and neyghbors about / should accompany the corps to the place of burial. We hold it also lawful to lament the dead / and if the dignity of the person so require / we think it not unlawful to use some way about y ^e burial / whereby that may appear / but yet so / that there be a measure kept both in the weeping and in the charges / considering that whereas immoderate either weeping or pomp was never / no not in the time of the law allowed / now in the time of the gospel / all that is not lawful / which was permitted in the time of the law. For unto the people of God under the law / weeping was by so much more permitted unto them / then unto us / by howe much they had not so clear a revelation and plain sight of the resurrection as we have / which was y ^• cause also why it was lawful for them to use more cost in the embaulmyng of the dead / thereby to nouryshe and to help their hope touching the resurrection / whereof we have a greater pledge by the resurrection of our savior Christ / then they had. Now for the things which the admonition findeth fault with / and thereof bringeth reason / M. Doctor of his bare credit without any reason or scripture / or any thing else / commendeth them unto us / & saith they be good. And this you shall mark to be M. doctors simple shyft throughoute his book / that when he hath no color of scripture / nor of reason / no name nor title of doctor / thē to make up some thing / he varyeth his affirmation by all the figures he can / as in saying simplye that it is so / and then in asking whether it be not so / and after in asking whether there is any other man will think that it is not so / as if the would make us believe / that he setteth us divers kinds of meats / because he bringeth the same in divers dyshes. For besides these reasons / he hath no reason / either to prove that it is meet to have prescript form of service for the dead / or that the minister should be drawn to this charge. Surely if the order be so good and convenient / it hath met w ^t a very barren patron / which can say nothing for it. And although there be enough said by the admonition / yet because this bold and hardy speech is enough to lead the simpler away / & to make them think that M. doctor hath a good cause / therefore I will also say somthyng of these rites of buryal.

And first of all / as this almost is a general fault in them all / y ^t they maintain in the minds of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead: so is this also a nother general fault / y ^t these ceremonies are taken up w ^t out any example / either of the churches under the law / or of the purest churches under the gospel / that is / of the churches in the apostles times. For when the scripture descrybeth the ceremonies or rites of burial amongst the people of God so dilygently / that it maketh mention of the smallest things / there is no doubt but the holy Ghoste doth thereby show us a pattern / whereunto we should also frame our buryalles. And therefore for so much as neither the church under the law nor under the gospel / when it was in the greatest puritye / did ever use any prescript form of service in the burial of their dead / it could not be but dangerous / to take up any such custom / & in the time of the law it was not only not used / but utterly forbidden. For when the law did forbid that the priest should not be at the burial / which ought to say or conceive the prayers there / it is clear y ^• the Jews might not have any such prescript form. And yet they had most need of it / for the causes of obscure knowledge / & weaker faith before alleged. Again / by this means a new charge is laid upon the minister / and a taking him away from his necessary duties of feeding and governing the flock / which being so great as a marvelous diligence will scarcely overcome / ought not to be made greater by this / being a thing so unnecessary. The Admonition doth not say that the Prayers which are said / are for the dead / but that they maintain an opinion of prayer for the dead in the hearts of the simple / and that they declare manifestly enough / when they say that it may be partly gathered. &c.

For the mournyng apparel / the admonition saith not simply it is evil because it is done of custom / but proveth that it is hypocritical oftentimes / for that it proceedeth not from any sadness of mind / which it doth pretend / but worn only of custom / there being under a mourning gown of tentimes a merry heart. And considering that where there is sorrow in deed for the dead / there it is very hard for a man to keep a measure that he do not lament too much: We ought not to use those means whereby we might be further provoked to sorrow / and so go a great way beyond the measure / which the apostle apoynteth in mournyng / no more then it was well done of the Jews in the gospel to provoke weeping & sorrow for their dead by some dolfull noise or sound of instrument / or then it was lawful for Mary Lazarus sister to go to her brothers grave / thereby to set the print of her sorrow deper in her mind. Seeing therefore if there be no sorrow / it is hypocritical to pretend it / and if there be / it is very dangerous to provoke it / or to carry the notes of remembrance of it / it appeareth that this use of mourning apparel were much better laid away then kept. And here M. doctor threps a little kindness of the authors of the admonition / & saith that they know it is very ancient / whom before he denieth to have any knowledge of antiquity. In deed it is very ancient / but M. doctor is afraid to show the ancienty of it / for Cyp. and Aug. inveigh vehemently against it / condemning it as unlawful and indecent.

Now touching the funeral sermons M. doctor taketh on / & tryumpheth marvelously / as though he had already gotten the victory: but he that girdeth his harnes / should not boast as he that putteth it of. There is more matter then peradventure M. doctor is aware of / & that which is set down / he answereth not: as that it norysheth an opinion that the dead are the better for it / which doth appear in y ^e there are none more desirous of funeral sermons / then the papists / which although they cannot abide the doctrine which is preached / yet they will have such sermons / and those which will very seldom / or not at all / be at other sermons / will not commonly miss one of these. Furthermore / for so much as the minyster is driven oftentimes by this means to preach upon a sudden / the word of God thereby is negligently handled / especially of those whose gifts are not so great / as that they can provide in so small time / and by this neglygent handling of the word of God / it is brought into contempt.

Moreover / considering that these funeral sermons are at the request of rich men / and those which are in authority / and are very seldom at the burial of the pore / there is brought into the church (contrary to the word of God) an acceptation of persons / which ought not to be. For although the minister may give to one more honor then to another / according as the calling or degree requireth / yet in his ministry / & that which pertaineth unto his office / he ought to show himself indifferent / and therefore preach as well at the death of the pore / as of the rich: and because he cannot well do both / it is most convenient to leave both. If so be that M. doctor will say / that it is good that notable and famous men should have their commendation / to the ende that both the goodness of God towards them / might be the better known / and others the sooner drawn to follow their example: I grant it is so / and the scripture doth both approve it / and showeth what mean is best to do that by. For so we read that Jeremiah the prophet commended that godly and zealous prince Josiah / in writing verses of his death. He could have as easily preached / but this he thought the best way. So did also David write verses at the death of Saul / and Jonathan and Abner / in which he commendeth their gyfts and graces which the Lord had bestowed upon thē. There were in deed of ancient time funeral orations / as appeareth in Gregory Nazianzen / but they savored of the manner of Athens / where he was brought up: where also this custom of funeral orations was used / as may be seen in the second boke of Thucydydes story by an oration of Pericles. And although this custom was not in Nazianzeus time / so corrupt as afterwards: yet the departing from the examples of the purer churches / gave occasion of further corruption which ensued. And to say the truth / it was better used amongst the Athenians / then amongst the Christians. For there it was merely civil / and the oration at the death of some notable personage / made / not by a minister / but by an Orator appointed therefore: which I think may well be done. And if M. doctor will say / that there might be sermons / although they be not mentioned neither in the old testament nor in the new: I have answered before / that seeing the holy ghost doth describe so dilygently the least circumstances of burial / he would not have omitted that / being the greatest. And let it be observed / that this devise of man's brain bringeth forth the same fruit that other do / y ^e is / dryueth quite away a necessary duty of the minister / which is / to comfort with the word of God / the parties which be grieved at the death of their friends / that considering the sore is particular / he apply unto it a particular plaster which is very seldom or never done / and yet a necessary duty / as of a good Christian / so especially of the minister / which can best do it / and to whom it most appertaineth. And whereas M. doctor asketh / when there is a better time to speak of death and of mortality then at burial / surely if it had ben so fit / the Prophets and apostles would never have lost that opportunity / or let pas that occasion of advancing and making effectual their preaching. What if it be answered / that for as much as our life is a continual meditation of death / it is not salfe to use this custom / for that it tieth our cogitation to so short a time as the time of burial is / which ought to be extended to the whole course of our life. But I answer / that it may be well done without any such funeral sermons when the minister taketh occasion of y ^e death of any which is lately departed / to speak of the vanity of y ^e life of man. Whether M. doctor lyketh the reformation or no / so it is in the church where M. Calvin was pastor / & hath ben for these many years. And although the English church in Geneva had that in the boke of common prayer / yet (as I have heard of those which were there present) it was not so used. And if it had been / yet thereby it is not proved that M. Calvin allowed of it. For with things wherein there was no great and manifest disorder / M. Calvin did bear that which he lyked not of. And there being no papists in all the city / and all being well instructed / there was no such danger in a funeral sermon there / as is here amongst us / where there is many papists / and mo ignorant. I will say nothing of the great abuse of those / which having otherwise to live on of the church / take nobles for every such sermon / and sometime a mourning gown / which causeth the papists to open their mouths wide / and to say / that the merchandise of sermons is much dearer then of the mass: for that they might have for a grote or six pence / and the sermon they cannot have under a roūder sum. That must be remembered which I had almost forgotten / howe untruly and slanderously M. doctor saith / that the authors of the admonition do compare y ^e sermon with a trentall or a mass. For whē I say instead of the mass we have the holy Communion / do I compare / or lyken the communion to the mass? and yet this is M. doctors charitable collection / which gathereth things which no man letteth fall. Touching the place of burial / I have spoken before. And although it be not to be mislyked / that there should be a common place to bury in / yet the places which M. doctor poynteth us unto / prove the clean contrary. For by the story of Abraham's place of burial / it appeareth that the manner was that everyone was buried in his own several ground / as may appear also by that that the euangelist saith / that there was a field bought to bury the strangers in / which had no place of their own / which was also used sometimes in the churches under the gospel / as appeareth by the story of Theodoret / which I have before recited / & in the later end of a funeral oratien / which Gregory Nazianzen made of the death of his brother Cesarius. And so by this reason M. doctor would have everyone buried in his own possession.

To the next section I have answered before / where I have entreated of churchyng women / and of prayer / it followeth to speak unto that / in the. 205. and. 206. pa.

TO pas by the profane proverb here used / which matcheth mad men & women / & children together / most unseemly for a D. of divinity / especially handling divine matters: for the singing of psalms by course / and side after side / although it be very ancient / yet it is not commondable / and so much the more to be suspected / for that the devil hath gone about to get it so great authority / partly by deriving it from Ignatius time / and partly in making the world believe / that this came from heaven / and that the angels were heard to sing after this sort / which as it is a mere fable / so is it confuted by hystoriographers / whereof some ascribe the beginning of this to Damasus / some other unto Flauianus & Diodorus. Frō whence so ever it came / it cannot be good / considering that when it is granted y ^• all the people may praise God (as it is in singing of psalms) there this ought not to be restrained unto a few / & where it is lawful both w ^t heart and voice to sing the whole psalm / there it is not mete y ^t they should sing but the one half with their heart and voice / and the other with their heart only. For where they may both with heart and voice sing / there the heart is not enough. Therefore besides the incommodity which cometh this way / in that being tossed after this sort / men cannot understand what is song / these other two inconveniences come of this form of singing / and therefore is banished in all reformed churches.

Unto two very good reasons which the admonition useth / to show the inconnenience of making curtesy / and standing at the name of Jesus / and at the gospel / rather then at other names of God / and the rest of the scripture: whereof the one is / that it is against decencye and good order which is broken by scraping of the feet / and the other y ^• it may brede a dangerous opinion of the inequality either of the son of God with the other persons / or of the gospels w ^t other scriptures / M. doctor saith y ^• it is an indifferent thing / and neither taketh away their reasons / nor setteth down any of his own: this is a slēder defense. And it is no malicious dealing / to note those faults which are so general & so open / & yet notw ^t standing uncorrected or unreformed by those / by whom M. d. would make us believe / y ^t the church is best governed. But I pray you tell me / why do you condemn the serving of two cures / y ^e alow the having of two benefices? If it be no fault to have two benefices / how is it one to have two cures? for y ^e curate is better able to read his service in .ii. places / thē the pastor to discharge his office in .ii. churches. As for y ^e speech of y ^e cathedral churches / either it is nothing / or else it is falls. For if he say y ^• there is either in all those cathedral churches one / or in every of those. 12. churches one / which is able to confute papists. &c. what great thing saith he / which saith no more of all these churches / then is to be found in one poor house of the university / whose rents are scarce three hundred pound by year? yea what hath he said of them which was not to be found in them even in Queens Mary's time / when there was yet someone almost in every Church / which for fear dissembling / was able notwithstanding to confute the Papists / Anabaptists / Puritans. And if he mean that in those .xii. houses / the worst of the Prebendaries are hable to defend the truth against all Papists. &c. all men do know the untruth of it / so that although this sentence be very doubtfully put forth / yet how so ever it be taken / it is as M. Doctor hath ryghtly termed it / a mere brag. And yet I doubt not / and am well assured / that there be diverse godly learned men which have lyuings in those places / but for all that they cease not therefore to be dens of loyterors and idle persons / whilst there are nouryshed there some which serve for no profitable use in the church (their offices being such as bring no commoditye / but rather hurt / of which number certain are which the Admonition speaketh of in the. 224. page:) some other which having charges in other places under the color of their prebendes there / absent them selves from them: and that which they spoil and rauen in other places / there they spend and make good cheare with / and therefore not without good cause called dens. Finally / there being nothing there / which might not be much better applied / and to the greater commodity of the church / whilst they might be turned into colleges / where young men might be brought up in good learning / & made fit for the service of the church and common wealth / the universities being not able to receive that number of scholars / wherewith their need may be supplied.

And where M. Doctor saith / that that which is spoken of the Queens maiestyes chapel / is worthy rather to be punished then confuted: if so be that these be abuses / the example of them in her majesties chapel / cannot be but most dangerous / which with all humble submission and reverence / I beseech her majesty duly to consider.

And as for the reasons which M. doctor bringeth to establish them in the 225. page / as that they are necessary (which he doth barely say) and that s. Aug. alloweth of a Dean / and that the authors of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoil of them / and that a man may as well speak against universities & colleges / as against them / I have answered before / saving that it is to be feared / that colleges in universities (if M. doctor may work y ^• which he goeth about) will shortly be in little better case / then those cathedral churches / which not only by his own example / but with might and main / and all endeavor possyble / goeth about to fill and fraught them with Non residences, and such as have charges of churches in other places: which do no good in the vniuersitye / and partly are such as can do none / only are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making great cheare / with the prays and spoils which they bring out of the country to the great hurt of the university presently / and utter ruin of it hereafter / unless spedy remedy be therefore provided. And where he saith it is not material / although these deanes / vicedeanes / canons / peticanōs / prebēdaries. &c. come from the pope / it is as if he should say / that it skilleth not although they come out of the bottomless pit. For whatsoever cometh from the Pope which is Antichrist / cometh first from the devil: and where he addeth this condition (if it be good. &c.) in deed if of the eggs of a cockatrice can be made wholesome meat to feed with / or of a spiders web any cloth to cover with all / then also may the things that come from the Pope and the Devil / be good / profitable / and necessary unto the church. And where he saith that collegiate churches are of great auncientie / he proveth not the auncientie of the cathedral churches / unless he prove that cathedral and collegiate be all one. But I will not stick with him for so small a matter / & if our controversy were of the names of these churches / and not of the matter / I could be content to grant his cause in this point as good as antiquity without the word of God (which is nothing but rottenness) could make it. But for so much as those ancient collegiate churches were no more like unto these which we have now / then things most unlike: our cathedral churches have not so much as this old worn cloke of antiquity / to hide their nakedness / and to keep out the shoure. For the collegiate churches in times past were a senate Ecclesiastical / standing of godly learned ministers & elders / which governed and watched over that flock which was in the city or town where such churches were / and for that in such great cities and towns commonly there were the most learned pastors and ancients / therefore the towns and villages round about in hard and difficult causes / came and had their resolutions of their doubts at their hands: even as also the Lord commanded in Deuteronomy / that when there was any great matter in the country / which the Levites in matters pertaining to God / and the Judges in matters pertaining to the common wealth / could not discuss / that then they should come to Jerusalem / where there was a great number of Priests / Levites / and learned Judges / of whom they should have their questions dissolved / and this was the first use of collegiate churches. Afterward the honor which the smaller churches gave unto them / in asking them counsel / they took unto them selves / and that which they had by the curtesy and good will proceeding of a reverent estimation of them / they did not only take unto them of right / but also possessed them of all authority of hearing and determyning any matters at all. And in the ende they came to this which they are now / which is a company that have strange names and strange offices / vnhearde of of all the purer churches / of whom the greatest good that we can hope of is / that they do no harm. For although there be divers which do good / yet in respect that they be Deans / Prebendaries / Canons / Petycanons. &c. for my part / I see no profit but hurt come to the church by them.

And where he saith they are rewards of learning / in deed then they should be / if they were converted unto the maintenance and bringing up of scholars / where now for the most part / they serve for fat morsels to fill (if it might be) the greedy appetites of those / which otherwise have enough to live with / and for holes and dens to keep them in / which either are unworthy to be kept at the charge of the church / or else whose presence is necessary and dutiful in other places / and for the most part unprofitable there.

Last of all / whereas M. Doctor saith that we have not to follow other churches / but rather other churches to follow us / I have answered before / this only I add / y ^• they were not counted only false Prophets which taught corrupt doctrine / but those which made the people of God believe / that they were happy when they were not / and that their estate was very good / when it was corrupt. Of the which kind of false prophecy / Jeremiah especially doth complain. And therefore unless M. Doctor amend his speech / & leave this crying peace / peace / all is well / when there are so many things out of order / and that not by the judgment of y ^e admonition & favorers thereof only / but evē of all which are not willingly blind / I say if he do not amend these speeches / the crime of false prophesy will sit closer unto him / thē he shall be ever able to shake of / in the terrible day of the lord.

The next section I have answered in the treatise of the archbishops / it followeth to speak unto the remnant of that section which is contained in the. 214. 215. 216. 217. 218. pages / for unto a part thereof which is comprehended in the. 213. and a piece of the. 214. page / I have answered in the same treatise of the Archbishops.

THe places alleged by the Admonition to prove that ministers of the church may not intermeddle with civil functions (one only excepted) are well and fitly alleged: and most of them used to that ende of writers / which if I should name / all would confess / that they are such / as with whom M. Doctor is not worthy to be so much as spoken of the same day.

For the first place / if so be that the minister ought rather to leave necessary duties of burying his father / & saluting his friends undone / then that he should not accomplysh his ministry to the full: much more he ought not to take upon him those things / which are not only not necessary duties / but as it shall appear / do in no case belong unto him. And although it may be applied to all Chrystians / yet it doth most properly belong unto the ministers. And as for the other place of Luke / touching our sauyoure Christ's refusal to devide the inheritance between the brethren / it is moste aptly alleged to this purpose. For although our savior Christ doth not there take away from men / authority to judge / yet he showeth thereby sufficiently / that it belongeth not unto the ministers of the word / to intermeddle in the judgment of cyuil causes. For our savior Christ framed that answer / having respect to the bounds of his calling.

For as he being a Minister of the Gospel / did all those things which were pertaining to his ministry: So by refusing this office of judgment in civil causes / he gave to understand that it did not appertain unto the compass of that office / which he exercised / which was the ministry. And therefore it is altogether out of season that M. D. here alledgeth / that the Anabaptists use this reason to prove that Christians may not have magistrates. For how doth this follow / that because this place of S. Luke proveth not / that we ought to have no Christian magistrates: that therefore it proveth not / that the minister should be no magistrate / as if there could be no civil magistrates / unless ministers of the word were.

And the place which he alledgeth out of the learned man / doth not only not make anything for him / but doth quite overthrow his cause. For he saith that our savior Christ did not refuse this as a thing in it self unlawful / but because it did not agree with his vocation. Now the vocation of our savior Christ / was to be a minister of the gospel / therefore it doth not agree with the vocation of a minister of the gospel to judge or to entermeddle in civil government. And if M. Doctor had been so studious of M. Calvin's works / as by his often allegation of him / he would make the world believe / he might have * red in him this sentence cited for this purpose / to prove that the ministers have not to do with civil things. Furthermore M. D. asketh what S. Paul's place to the Romans (where he willeth that he which hath an office / must wait of that office he that teacheth of his teaching) maketh to this purpose. Surely M. Doc. very much. Neither can there be a place more properly alleged / both for the very playnes of the words / & also for the circumstance of the place. For S. Paul speaketh there against those / which would ouerreach their callings / & having certain callings / contented not them selves with them / but would have an ore in every man's boat / and would take more upon them then they were able to do / or the measure of their gifts would stretch unto. And therefore showeth / that as the body is best preserved when every member thereof doth his office / and destroyed when one member will take upon it to do the office of another: so the church is then best governed / when every Ecclesiastical person keepeth him self within the limits of his calling / not meddling with that which pertaineth unto another. But M. Doctor saith that the bishop governeth as well by discipline as by preaching: so he doth. But I pray you by what discipline? what a reason is this / he governeth by discipline / ergo, by civil discipline. You say in the next sentence that the authors of the admonition either dote or dream: But if these be your sharp disputations / when you are awake? surely they are very blunt when you dream. But I had rather judge the best / that Master Doctor was over-watched.

The last place which is alleged by the admonition / is out of the epistle to Tim. where it showeth / that for so much as the estate of a minister / is as that of a soldier / & therefore as the souldyer / to the end he might the better please his captain / & do his service of warfare / quitteth all those things which he loveth / & whereof otherwise he might have care / and might enjoy: even so the minister ought to dispatch him self of all those things which may be any let to the office of his ministry / although he might otherwise lawfully use thē. And if so be for the performing of y ^e ministry to the full / he must quite those things which he may lawfully use / how much more might the admonition conclude that he ought not to entangle himself with those things / which (out of the places of S. Luke / and to the Romaines) it had shown to be unlawful for him to meddle with? And although M. D. say the sentence be general / yet it is particularly meant / and most properly of the ministers / which Master Calvin teacheth M. Doctor in the same place / where he hath cited his authority twice to no purpose. For what although M. Calvin do not there apply in prescript words this sentence to prove that ministers ought not to meddle with civil offices / doth it follow therefore that this place cannot be used thereto? In saying that he ought to abstain from all lets which may hinder his vocation & ministry / he doth consequently say / that he ought to abstain from all civil offices. And if so be M. Doct. had been so well red in the ancient doctors (as he would seem) he might have known that this place is used of * Cyprian / to the same purpose that it is alleged here. For Cyprian speaking against an elder which had taken upon him to be executor to one which was dead / alledgeth this place. To these reasons of the admonition / may be added that which the admonition hath in the. 230. page / that the regiment of the church is spiritual / and respecteth the conscience / & therefore hath not to do with civil offices / which respect properly the common wealth / and the outward godly honest / and quiet behavior. And therefore their meaning is ▪ that as the civil governor doth use such kind of punishment as may bridle the outward man / & hold him / that he dare not offend in the open breach of that godliness / honesty and quietness which Saint Paul commendeth unto us: so the Ecclesiastical regyment doth use that kind of discipline / whereby the consience and inward man may be kept in that willing obedience unto God's commandment touching a godly honest and quiet life. And to note the distinction of these regymentes civil and spiritual / the place unto the Thessalonyans is well alleged: for by the words (such as rule over you in the Lord) the Apostle doth put a difference beetweene the civil and ecclesiastical regymente. For albeit that godly civil magistrates do rule over us in the Lord / yet Saint Paul catexochen that is / by excellencye / ascrybeth that unto the Ecclesiastical governors / because that whereas the civil magistrate beside his care for the salvation of the souls of his people / is occupied in procuring also the wealth and quyetnes of this life: the Ecclesiastical governors have all their whole care set upon that only ▪ which pertaineth to the life to come. And to this end also is alleged by the admonition / the place of Tim. wherein the apostle teacheth part of the ecclesiastical discipline which the minister may use / to consist in reprehensions and rebukes / which must be tempered according as the estate and age of everyone doth require. Theyr meaning is not (as M. Doctor untruly surmyseth) to shut out the civil magistrate / or to debar him of punishing the wicked / but that it appertaineth not unto the ministers to deal that ways / whose correction of faults lieth partly in reprehensions and admonitions / which he speaketh of there / partly in excommunication / whereof is spoken before. Further touching the place of the Ephesians / for so much as our savior Christ as he is head of his church / is the spiritual governor thereof / it is meet that their government which are appointed underneath him / as he is head / should be likewise spiritual / as his is. For as for the civil magistrate / although he be appointed of Christ (as he is God) in which respect there is none above Christ / yet he is not appointed of him / in respect that he is head of the church / in regard whereof / God is above Christ / and as the apostle saith / the head of him.

Now that I have shown that the places quoted by the admonition / are for y ^e most part to the purpose of that they be quoted for / I will add a reason or two to this purpose / before I come to answer to those reasons which are brought by M. Doctor. Here I must desire the reader to remember (which I said before / when I spake against non residencie) the multitude & difficulty of those things which are required of the minister of the word of God. And with all I will leave to the consideration of everyone / the great infirmity and weakness which is in men / both the which consyderations set together / it will easily appear how unmeet a thing it is / that the minister should have any other charge laid upon him / seeing that it being so wayghty an office / as will require all the gifts he hath / be they never so great / it must needs fall out / that so much as he doth in another calling / so much he leaveth undone in this. And what the hand of man is able to reach herein / it is to be considered in the apostles / whom if the office of the ministry did so wholly occupy and set a work / that they could admyt no other charge with it / yea / & were fain to cast of that which they had / it is clear that none of those which live now / can beside that function / admytte any other publyke calling. The story is known in the Acts / that the apostles even during the time that they kept together at Jerusalem / and taught the church there / were fain / that they might the better attend unto preaching and praying / (by which two things S. Luke summarely setteth forth the office of the ministry) to give over the charge of providing for the poor unto others / because they were not hable to do both. Now for so much as the Apostles endued with such gifts as none have been since / or shall be hereafter / could not discharge together with the office of the minister that also of the deacon / how should any man be found / that together with that office / can discharge the office of a civil magistrate? And if the Apostles would not have the office of a Deacon / which was ecclesiastical / and therefore of the same kind with the ministry joined unto it / how much less will they suffer that the ministry should be joined with a civil office / and therefore of another kind? For reason teacheth that there is an easier mingling of those which are of one kind / then of those which are of divers kinds. Agayne / how can we justly reprove the papists for the use of both the swords / spiritual / and material / when as we are found in the same fault our selves? And surely howsoever long custom hath caused it to seme / yet in deed it is a very great and intolerable confusion / which may be the easelyer understanded / if so be we set before our eyes / how uncomely and disordered it is / in the like / or rather in the very same case. For let us imagine the Mayor or Baylife of a town / or the King or Emperor of the lande / to come into the pulpet / and make a sermon / afterward to minister the Sacraments / and from the Church to go with the scepter in his hand unto the place of judgment: who would not be amazed to see this / and wonder at it / as at a strange and monstrous sight? assuredly the self same deformity it is / when as the Mynister of the word / is made a Justice of peace / of Quorum / a Commyssioner / an Earl / or any such like / to whom the judgment of matters pertaining to the court of the civil Magistrate is committed: especially seeing there are (God be praised) of the Nobility and gentry of the realm / that are able to discharge these offices much better / then these Ecclesiastical persons to whom they are committed. And if so be that there fall out any question at any time which is to be decided by the word of God / and wherein the advise of the minister is needful / there the ministers help / may / and ought to be required. For thereof we have not only an example in Ezra / where the Princes in a matter of difficulty / came & asked the counsel of Ezra / but we have a plain commandment in Moses by the Lord▪ who commanded that the cause of pertury should be heard before the Lord in the sanctuary / at the hearing whereof the high priest should be present / by which commandment the Lord doth not (by bringing this cause into the sanctuary) declare / that the judgment thereof did appertain unto the Ecclesiastical court / but because it being a matter which touched the glory of God very expressly / he would have the Princes which were judges there / to be the nearer touched / and the depelyer affected with the glory of God / whereof they saw the sacrament before their eyes. Neither is the high priest commanded to be present to this ende / that he should sit as judge of that matter / but that he might dissolve the difficulties / if any rose of the understanding of the law / and that he might prick forward and styre up by admonition / the Princes to whom the judgment appertained / if so be he should see them cold & slack to revenge the injury done unto the Lord. Which thing may the better appear / in y ^t the handling of the matter / is there appointed not unto the priests / but unto the judges or princes only / and so likewise of matrimony and diuorse / although the judgment thereof appertain unto the civil magistrate / yet the minister if there be any difficulty in knowing when it is a lawful contract / & when the dyuorse is lawful / may and ought to be consulted with. Thus may the common wealth and church enjoy both the wisdom & learning which is in the minister / & things may be done in that order which God hath appointed / without such confounding and iombling of offices and jurisdictions together. For although Aristotle's obeliscolychnion, and Plato's dorydrepanon, that is / instruments serving to two purposes / be lawful in offices of the common wealth / where things are more free / and left in greater liberty to be ordered at the judgment and advise of men / especially considering that upon the diuersitye of the forms of common wealths / variety of regiment may spring: yet in the church of God where things are brought to a strayghter rule / and which is but one and uniform / the same may not be suffered. And yet even those common wealth Philosophers which do lycence upon occasion that two offices may meet in one man / hold that it is best and conuenientest / that everyone should have a particular charge. For Aristotle saith that it is most agreeable to nature / that hen should be pros hen, that is / one instrument to one use. And Plato useth the proverb mede heracleis pros duo, against those which will take upon them diverse vocations / and not content them selves with one / so that they make the meting of many functions in one man / to be a remedy only in extreme need & poverty of able men. And although both be unlawful / yet as the case standeth in our realm / it is more tellerable that the civil magistrate should do the office of a minister / then that the minister should intermeddle with the function of the magistrate. For when the accounts shall be cast / it will fall out / that there are more sufficient & able men to serve in the common wealth of this realm / then in the church / and greater want in the one then in the other. And if beside this / both authority of the werd of God and light of reason / we will look unto the practice of the church many years after the time of the Apostles / we shall find that the church hath been very careful from time to time / that this order should be kept / that the ministers should not entangle them selves with anything beside their ministry / and those things which the word of God doth necessarily put upon them / le • st the strength of their mind & of their body / being distracted unto many things / they should be the less able to accomplish their ministry unto the full. Which may also partly appear by that which I have alleged out of Cyprian / which will not permit them so much as to be executors of a Testament. And in one of the Canons which are ascribed unto the Apostles it is enjoined that they should not entangle them selves with worldly offices / but attend upon their Ecclesiastical affairs.

Further / in the council of Calcedon it was decreed / that none of the clearkes or clergy (as it termeth them) should receive any charge of those which are under age / unless they were such as the laws did necessarily cast upon him / which it calleth inexcusable charges / meaning by all lykelyhoode / the wardshyp of his brothers children or some such thing. Where is also declared the cause of that decree to have been / for that there were certain ministers which were stewards to noble men. And in the. 7. canon of the same council it is decreed / that none of the clergy should either go to warfare as souldyers or captaynes / or should receive any secular honors / and if they did / they should be excommunicated or accursed. Now I come to M. Doctors arguments / which he bringeth to establish this disorder.

And first he saith ministers of the word may not occupy them selves in worldly business / as to be merchants / husbandmen / crafts men / and such like / but they may exercise civil offices. Where first of all I perceive M. Doctor is of this mind / that the order of God is not to be broken for small gain / or when a man must take great toil of the body to break it: but it may be broken with getting of honor / and doing of those things which may be done without soil / & with great commendation / there it is lawful to break it. In deed so the Poete (but in the person of an unjust and ambition man / ) said: ei chre adicein, tyrannidos heneca chre, that is. If a man must do unjustly / he must do it to bear rule.

Secondarely I do see that M. Doctor will not be shackled and hyndered from his ministry by a pair of iron fetters / but if he can get a pair of golden fetters / he is contented to be hampered and entangled / from doing the office of ministry committed unto him. For unless these should be the causes which should move him to take the one / and refuse the other / verily I see none. For where as he saith it is a help / & maynteineth religion / in deed that is the reason of the papists which M. Calvin confuteth in his institution. And although it be good and necessary to punish vice and iniquity / by corporal punishments and by civil corrections: yet it doth no more follow that that should be done by y ^e ministers / then it followeth that for that preaching and ministering the sacraments and excommunication are good and necessary / therefore the same is fit to be executed by the civil magistrate. I grant the ministers have also to punish vice / for as the civil magistrates punish lyghter faults with some penalty of money or loss of member: so the church and the minister especially with the church / hath to punish faults by represions and rebukes. And as the civil magistrate punisheth greater faults by death: so the minister with other which have interest / hath with the sword of excommunication power to kill those which be rebellious / & to cut them from the church / as the other doth from the common wealth. And if it be a help to the ministers office / that he should meddle with civil punishments / why should it not be a help unto the magistrates office / that he should excommunicate and other things pertaining to the ecclesiastical discipline? And where as M. Doctor saith they may not be husbandmen / crafts mē. &c. & yet may have civil offices / I think far otherwise / that although neither be lawful / yet the one were more tolerable then the other. For seeing after the ministry of the word / there is no calling under the sun weightyer / and which requireth greater exercise of the mind / then the office of the magistrate / it is against all reason to lay this heavy burden upon a man that is already loden / and hath as much as he is able to bear. It were more equal / if they will needs add unto the weight of this burden / to lay some lyghter charge of exercising & handy craft / then to break his back with the charge of a civil magistrate.

And whereas in the policy of M. Doctor it seemeth a furtherance to the gospel to join these together which was also the policy of the Idolaters / (as I have before declared) in the wisdom of God it hath seemed far otherwise / which I doubt not did therefore separate the ministry from this pomp / which is commendable in the civil magistrate / least the efficacy and power of the simplicity of the word of God and of the ministry should be obscured / whilst men would attribute the conversion of souls unto the gospel (dew unto the word and to the spirit of God) to these glorious shows. And least whilst the mynyster have the word in one hand / and the sword in the other / men should not be able to judge so well in their consciences of the mighty operation of the word of God in them. For they might doubt with them selves / whether the fear & out ward show of the minister / carried some stroke with them in believing the word.

But M. Doctor saith / that civil offices are not to be counted worldly affairs / but heavenly and spiritual / it is so / and yet when they are compared with the ecclesiastical offices / they may be called secular offices / for so much as they together with the care of religion / procure and provide for the things whereby we may quietly and commodiously live here / where the ecclesiastical offices are immediately and only bent / to procure the glory of God and the salvation of men / and in that signification of heavenly & spiritual which you take / marchandyse / husbandry / and the handy craft be heavenly and spyrituall / although not in the same degree. All lawful callings came from God / & return to him again / that is / he is both author of them / and they ought to be referred to his glory / so that if the minister may exercise all things which be heavenly / and spiritual / you may as well bring him down to the plough / as promote him to the court. And whereas M. Doctor saith that the office of a commissyoner is ecclesiastical / because it handleth ecclesiastical causes / I marvel that he is so ignorant / that he cannot put a difference between giving iudyciall sentences / and appointing bodily punishments (which are mere civil) and between the understanding the truth of every such cause according as the word of God defyneth of it: which is a thing common as well unto the magistrate as unto the minister / and wherein the minister because he ought to be most ready / ought (if need be) consulted with.

An other of Master Doctors reasons is / that as kings do serve Christ by making laws for him / so bishops do serve Christ by executing laws for him. As though it pertained not unto the magistrates to execute laws / as well as to make them / and as if the magistrate were not therefore called a speaking law / because by executing them / he doth cause the laws after a fashion to speak. Thys is to devide the stake of the magistrate / between him / and the bishop / yea to give the bishop the best part of it. For we know that with us / the people be at making of the laws / which may not meddle with the execution of them. And if M. Doctor say that he meaneth not hereby to shut the prince from executing the laws / then as his similytude (when it is at the best) proveth nothing: so by this means it haltes down right / and is no simylitude. As for Eli and Samuel they are extraordinary examples / which may thereby appear / for that both these offices first meting in Melchizedek / & afterward in Moses / were by the commandment of God severed / when as the Lord toke from Moses (being so wise & godly a man) the priesthood / & gave it to Aaron / and to his successors. And so / for so much as when the Lord would polishe his church / & make it famous / & renowned in the world / he gave this order: It appeareth that he would have this to be a perpetual rule unto his church. And by so much it is the clearer / for that y ^e Lord did not tarry until Moses death / but toke the priesthood away frō Moses / which was a man as able to execute both / as either Eli / or Samuel. And this may be also easily seen / for that in a manner always / where there was any good and stayed estate of the church / these offices were ministered by several persons / and then met & were mingled / when the estates were very ruinous and miserable. And if this be a good reason to prove that ministers may exercise civil offices / it is as good a reason to prove / that princes may preach / and minister the sacraments. For if the ministers may exercise civil offices / because Eli / and Samuel (being ministers) did so: the Princes / and Judges may preach the word / and minister the sacraments / because Eli and Samuel (being princes and judges) did so. And so we see / how M. Doctor going about / to defend one confusion / bringeth in another.

As for Elias killing the false prophets / and our savior Christ's whipping out of the temple / it is strange that Master Doctor will allege them / as things to be followed / when he may as well teach / that we may cal for fire from heaven / as Elias did / and being demanded / answer nothing / as our savior did: as to follow these actions which are most singular / and extraordinary. And if these one / or two examples be enough to break the order that God hath set / by this a man may prove / that the ministers may be fyshers / and tent makers / because Peter / and Paul (being ministers) did fyshe and make tents. And truly these are not so extraordinary / and from the general rule / as the other be. And it was permitted in a council / that rather then a minister should have two benefices / he might labor with his hands / to supply his want withal. When S. Paul willed Tim. that he should not receive an accusation against an elder / under two or three witnesses / he did commit nothing les / then any civil office unto him. And M. Doctor him self hath alleged it before / as a thing incident to the office of a bishop: and therefore he doth forget himself marvelously now / that maketh this a civil office.

And doth M. Doctor think / that S. Paul made magistrates? Or is he of that judgment / that the church in the time of persecution / may make civil officers? But it is true / that he that is once over the shoes / sticketh not to run over his bootes.

And last of all to prove that bishops may have prisons / he citeth Peter which punished Ananias / and Sapphira with death. M. Doctor must understand that this was Ecclesiastical power / and was done by virtue of that function / which S. Paul calleth dynamin, which is one of those functions that the Lord placed in his church for a time. But is this a good argument / because S. Peter punished with the word / therefore the minister may punish with the sword? And because S. Peter did so once / therefore the bishop may do so always? & because S. Peter did that / which appertaineth to no civil magistrate / and which no civil magistrate / by any means may / or can do / therefore the minister may do that / which appertaineth unto the civil magistrate? For if there had been a civil magistrate / the same could not have punished this fault of dissimulation / which was not known / nor declared it self by any outward action. So that if this example prove anything / it proveth that the minister may do / that no man may do / but the Lord only / which is to punysh faults that are hyd / and unknown. If this be ignorance / it is very gross / & if it be against knowledge / it is more dangerous. I have determined with myself / to leave unto M. Doctor his outcries and declamations / and if I should have used them / as often as he giveth occasion / there would be no end of writing. The Lord give M. Doctor either better knowledge / or better conscience.

Unto M. Doctor / asking where it appeareth that pope Eugenius brought in prysons into the church / as also unto three or four such like demands which he maketh in this book / the authors of the Admonition answer at once / that this and the other are sound in Pantaleon and M. Bales Chronicles. Here I will take in that / which the bishop of Salesbury hath in the last page of his half sheet touching this matter.

And first of all I well agree / that he saith / that to give unto Satan (which is to excommunicate / and to correct an Ecclesiastical person by reprehensyon / or putting him out of the ministry / if the case so require) is mere ecclesiastical / and not civil / and that those things ought to be done of the officers of y ^e church. Thys only I deny / that the ministers ought to meddle with civil offices. For proof whereof / the B. alledgeth the example of Augustine / which as Possidonius writeth / was troubled with the hearing & determinyng of causes. Wherein Possidonius saith nothing / but that I willingly agree unto. For the minister with the elders / ought both to hear / and determine of causes / but of such causes / as pertain unto their knowledge / whereof I have spoken before. And that Possidonius meant such causes as belonged unto Augustine / as he was a minister / and not of civil affairs / it appeareth by that which he writeth immediately after / where he saith. Being also consulted of / by certain in their worldly affairs / he wrote epistles to diverse / but he accounted of this / as of compulsyon / and restraint from his better busynesses: whereby it appeareth / that S. Augustine meddled not with those worldly affairs / further / then by way of giving counsel / which is not unlawful for a minister to do / as one friend unto another / so that his mynisterye be not thereby hindered. And for the truth of this matter / that ministers ought not to meddle with civil affairs / I will appeal to no other / then to the bishop him self / who doth affirm plainly the same / that the admonition here affirmeth.

And therefore I conclude / that for so much as both the holy scriptures do teache / that ministers ought not to meddle with civil offices / and reason / and the practice of the church do confirm it / that they ought to keep thenselves within the limites of the ministry / and Ecclesiastical functions / least whilst they break forth into the calling of a magistrate / in stead of showing themselves episcopous, that is overseers / they be found to declare themselves * allotriopiscopous, that is: busy bodies / meddling in things which belong not unto them. And thus putting them in remembrance of that which they know well enough / that they ought cosman sparten hen elachon, that is to say: study to adorn that charge which they take in hand / and do profess / I leave to speak any further of this matter.

Unto the two next sections I have spoken in that which hath been said touching excommunication / canons / and prebendaries. &c. and unto that which is contained in the. 226. and. 227. I answer that I cannot excuse covetous patrons of benefices / but covetous parsons and vicars be a great plague unto this church / and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant people.

Lykewise unto the two next sections I have answered before / in speaking against the spiritual courts / which are now used / and unto the next after that / in speaking of the ordaining of ministers. And unto that which is contained in the later ende of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the church shall judge of the aptness or unaptness of our reasons / and albeit we do find fault with diverse things in the book / yet we neither oppugn as enemies / nor are by the grace of God either Papists / Anabaptists / Atheists / or Puretanes / as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call us. And to the prayer against disturbers of the church / I say with all my heart. Amen.

Unto the next section I have answered in the treatise of the apparel. And unto the next after / in the treatise which declareth to whom it doth appertain to make ceremonies and orders of the church. And unto the section contained in the. 243. page / I say that M. Doctor being asked of Oynions / answereth of garlike. For the authors of the admonition / desyring that it might be as lawful for them to publish by Printe their minds / or to be heard dispute / or that their mind put in writing / might be openly debated / master D. answereth with Augustine's sentence (which he hath made the foot of his song) nothing to the purpose of that which they said / the performance of which promise / we will notwithstanding wait for.

Unto the section contained in the. 245. and. 246. pages.

HEre master Doctor / contrary to the protestation of the authors of the Admonition / which declare that for the abuses / and corruptions / they dare not simply subscribe / saith / that therefore they will not subscribe / because they are required by lawful authority. Whych howe both presumptuous and uncharitable a judgment it is / let all men judge / especially upon this matter which hath been declared. And where master Doctor would upon the marginal note / prove that we have good discipline / because we have good doctrine / and thereupon doth wonderfully tryumphe / he playeth as he of whom it is said / meden labon cratei carteros, that is / having gotten nothing / holdeth it fast. For can M. doctor be so ignorant / that this manner of speech (doctrine and discipline cannot be severed) is used for that / that they ought not to be severed? when we say (following S. Paul) that we can do nothing against the truth / do we not mean that we ought to do nothing / nor can do nothing lawfully against it? And do not all men know when we say that a man cannot be separated from his wife / but for the cause of adultery / that we mean he ought not / or he cannot lawfully? Therefore this is / as (all men may see) a mere cavil / and triumph over his own shadow. There is no brag of suffering made by the authors of the admonition. The modesty wherewith he hath defended this cause / cā not be hid̄. That he would have other men punished for well doing / when he is not content that the open wrongs which he doth / should be once spoken of / I have shown how unreasonable it is.

Finally / as you exhort us to submit our selves to good order / which have ben always / and yet are ready to do: to leave to be contentious / which never yet began: to join with you in preaching the word of God / which have stopped our mouths / and will not suffer us to preach: so we exhort you in God's behalf / & as you will once answer it before the just judge / that you will not willingly shut your eyes against the truth / that if the Lord vouchsafe to open it unto you / you kick not against it. Where we pray you to take heed / that neither the desire of keeping your wealth and honor which you are in / nor the hope which you may have of any further promotion / nor yet the care of keeping your estimation / by maintaining that which you have once set down / nor the sleighty suggestion of crafty & wily papists / do drive you to stomble against this truth of God / which toucheth the government of his church / and the purging of those corruptions which are amongst us / knowing that you cannot stumble upon the word of God / * but forthwith you run yourself against Christ which is the rock. And you know that he will not give back / but breaketh all to fytters / whatsoever he be that rusheth against him. And if the matter herein alleged / do not satisfy you: then I desire even before the same God / that you confute it / not by passyng over things which you cannot answer / or by leaving both the words and the meaning of the book / and taking your own fansye to confute / or by wrangling with the fault of the Printe / or by carping at the translation / when the words being changed / the sense remaineth / or by alleging that such a one / or such another / was of this or that judgment / as you for the most parte (having nothing but his bare name) have done. (All which things you have committed in this boke) but that you confute it by the authority of the word of God / by good and sound reasons / wholly and not by pecemeale. And if you bring the practice of the churches / we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extāt / which are not counterfeit / and which were in the best and purest times. And if you think that the credit of your doctorship or deanrye / will bear out that which you cannot answer yourself / besides that ecdicon omma, is never shut / remember M. doctor / that light is come into the world / & men will not be deluded with nothing / nor abused with visards. Neither let it embolden you (which peradventure hath made you to presume the more in this boke) to write anything upon hope / that no man dare answer it. For neither the Queens majesty / nor her honorable council / as we are persuaded / will deal so sharply with those whom they know to be faithful & lawful subjects / which pray that all the treasures of God's wisdom may be poured upon them: neither have we cause to think / but that as the evil opinion which is in part conceived of us / hath grown upon false & untrue informations / which you and such other have given (in crying in their ears / y ^t we be anabaptists / conspired with papists / puretanes / Donatists / bringers in of confusion & anarchy / enemies to civil government / and I know not what) even so whē her majesty & their honors shall understand / how far we are from those wicked opinions / they will leave that opinion of us / and rather esteem of us by that we have preached / taught / and now write / then that which other men report of us / being things which we never taught / spake / or so much dreamed of.

Unto master Doctors censures upon the additions / detractions / and alterations of both the partes of the admonition.

BEsydes that oftentimes M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations / corrections / he leaveth us somewhat the les hope / that he will correct his errors / for that he pursueth the authors of the admonition so hard / correcting their very small and few slips which they have made / calling this singular modestye / and commendable humility amongst other reproaches / dalying and inconstancye / when it is our profession every day to learn better things. For unto what ende should we live / if time / if experience / if reading / if musing / if conference should teache us nothing? And therefore / when things are Printed again / it is good and praise worthy / to pollish those things which are some▪ what rude / to mitigate those things which are to sharp / to make plain / and to give light to those things which seem darker / and to correct that which is a miss. I think M. Doctor should not be ignorant / that wise men have their deuteras phrontidas, their seconde counsels / and those also wiser and better then their first / as that sentence doth declare. I will therefore say no more hereof / but admonish M. Doctor that he receive more lovingly those which correct them selves / seeing that the best defense to his book must be / not a correction here and there / but a clean blotting and striking out / not an amending / but a new making almost of his whole book. Other matter in his censures / he hath almost none at all worth the answering / saving that he hath a place or two which touch the matters before entreated of. For whereas he accuseth the authors of the admonition in the first leaf / as though they should condemn Doctors and bachellers of divinity / and so bring in confusion of degrees / he upon the. 5. leaf / confesseth that they allow of a Doctor. Althoughe he that taketh away degrees of Doctor or Bachelor of Divinity / doth not bring in confusion / nor taketh not away all degrees of schools / especially seeing they are now made bare names without any offices / and oftentimes they are admitted to these degrees / which neither can / nor will teache.

Unto the seconde leaf of the addition of the second parte of the admonition / master D. saith / that because the third to Titus maketh not against reading / therefore it maketh not against reading ministers / that is / ministers that can do nothing but read.

And whereas he would pick out a contradiction in the words of the admonition / because they say bare reading / is but bare feading / the discord is in his cares / not in their words. For when they said it was no feading / they meant such feeding as could save them / and so in calling it bare feading / they note that there is not enough in that / to keep them from famishment. And in deed / unless the Lord work miraculously and extraordinarily (which is not to beloked for of us) the bare reading of the scriptures without the preaching / cannot deliver so much as one poor sheep from destruction / and from the wolf. And if some have ben converted wonderfully / yet M. doctor should remember that potamos ouc aei axinas pherei, that is. The water doth not always bear iron.

And upon the third leaf / where he giveth instance in the Apocalypse of the word (priest) to be taken otherwise / then for the Levitical priesthood / and priesthood of our savior Christ. Master D. cannot be ignorant / that the admonition speaketh of those which be priests in deed / & properly / and not by those which are priests by a Metaphor and borrowed speech. And whereas he desireth to learn where the word (priest) is taken in evil parte in all the New Testament. Although all men see how he asketh this question of no mind to learn: yet if he will learn (as he saith) he shall find that in the acts of the apostles / it is taken diverse tunes in evil parte. For seeing that the office and function of ron iereon, that is / of priests / was (after our savior Christ's ascencion) naught and ungodly: The name whereby they were called / which did exercise that ungodly function / cannot be otherwise taken / then in the evil parte.

M. Doctor upon the. 5. leaf / citeth M. Calvin's authority / to prove that the laying on of the hands upon young children / and the Confirmation which is here used / is good. In the which place / although he allow of a kind of Confirmation / yet he doth not commend that which we have. For he doth plainly reprove Jerome / for saying that it came from the apostles / which notwithstanding the Confirmation with us doth affirm. Besydes that / there are other abuses which I have noted there / which M. Calvin doth not by any word allow. He alloweth in deed of a putting on of hands of the children / when they come out of their childehode / or begin to be young men / but as well as he doth allow of it / he was one of those which did thrust it out of the church / where he was pastor. And so he alloweth of it / that he bringeth (in the sixth section of the same chapter) a strong reason to abolyshe it. Where he asketh / what the imposition of hands should do now / seeing that the giving of the gifts of the holy ghost by that ceremony is ceased. Therefore / seeing that we have M. Calvin's reason against this imposition of hands / his name ought not to be prejudicial unto us: especially / seeing that we have experience of great inconuenyences which come by it / which M. Calvin could not have / that thing being not in use in that church where he lived. Whych inconvenience in things which are not necessary / ought to be a just cause of abolyshing of them. And this is not my judgment only / but the judgment of the churches of Heluetia / Berne / Tigurine / Geneva / Scotland / and diverse others / as appeareth in the. 19. chapter of their confession.

Upon the. 6. leaf / M. Doctor saith that the Pope taketh the sword from Princes / but our bishops take it at their hands / and given of them: as though challenge were not made against the Pope / for using the material sword / and not only for using it against the will of y ^e princes. For by that reason / if Prynces would put their swords in his hand / as sometimes they have done / he might lawfully use them. And whereas he saith / that our church men meddle not with all civil causes / or exercise all civil jurisdiction / but such as helpeth to discipline / and the good government of the church / and the state: What saith he / that is not truly said of any civil magistrate in the realm? for no one doth meddle in all causes. And further / I would gladly know what civil jurisdiction is in this realm / which helpeth not unto the good government of this church / and state. For if they meddle with all that / there is none which they have not to do with.

Upon the. 7. leaf / he saith / that he knoweth not the meaning of the admonition / when it proveth that the government of the church is spiritual / their meaning is plain enough / and I have declared it more at large to be / not only that our savior Christ ruleth by his spirit in the hearts of his elect (besides which government M. doctor seemeth to know none.) But that there is also spiritual government / which is in the whole church visible / & to be seen / exercised by those / whom God hath appointed in his stead / called spiritual / because where as the civil government useth the sword / this useth the word: and where the civil governor addresseth himself unto the body / and hath that for special matter to work on / the spiritual governors be occupied in reforming the mind / and subduing that with those punishments and corrections / which God hath appointed for that purpose. Whych signification of spiritual government / M. Calvin doth speak of in both the places alleged by M. doctor: and especially in the later / unto whom the admonition sent the reader / not thereby to give more weight unto the truth / but that he might have there a plainer / and fuller understanding of that which it meant / and could not for that brevity and shortness which it followeth throughout / utter at large. Whereby it is manifest / that the admonition is so far from shutting out either civil government / or external government in the church / that it teacheth of an external government which M. doctor seemeth not to have heard of / allbeit there be nothing either more common in the scriptures / or Ecclesiastical writers.

Upon the. 8. leaf / M. doctor saith he seeth nothing / howe the place of the Ephesians maketh anything against this manner of speech of the bishop (receive the holy ghost) and yet it maketh thus much / that for as much as the apostles did use to pray that the grace of God might be given unto men / the bishops should not use this manner of speech / which containeth the form of a commandment.

Upon the. 9. leaf he hath sundry grievous accusations and charges of disorder / disobedience / and contempt against those which refuse the apparel / and laboreth to persuade that they are great and weighty matters. But his profess were spent before.

As for answer to the articles collected out of the admonition / it is made in the Reply unto M. Doctors boke / where I have shown howe the admonition is misconstrued / and taken otherwise / then either it meaneth or speaketh / whereunto I will refer the reader.

And albeit I have shown how untrue it is / that the admonition affirmeth that there is no church in England / yet I cannot pas by the secrete philosophy whereby M. doctor would prove / that the authors of the admonition affirm it. For saith he by y ^e rule of Philosophy. Quod vix fit, non fit, that which is scarce done / is not done. I say this is secrete / for it was never taught / neither in Academia, nor in Stoa, nor Lyceo. I have red Quod fere fit, non fit, that which is almost done / is not done. But I never remember any such rule / as M. Doctor speaketh of.

And besides that in our tongue / those things which 〈◊〉 said to be scarce / are notwithstanding oftentimes supposed to be: As when a • an saith that there is scarce a man alive. &c. the scripture also useth that phrase of speech / of things which are / as when it saith / the just man shall scarce be saved / it doth not mean that just men shall not be saved. The rest of that I have answered.

And whereas he saith that it is all one / to say that the election of the minister must be made by the church / and to say / it must be made by the people: It is a great ouersyghte to make the parte / and whole all one / seeing the people be but one parte of the church / and the minister and the other governors are / allbeit not the greatest / yet the principallest part. I grant that sometimes a part is taken for the whole / and so we do call sometimes the governors of the church the church / and sometimes the people. But where the question is of the proprietye of these speeches (the church and the people) there all men that have any judgment / can easily put a difference. The rest of those articles are answered in the discourse of the book. Besydes that / the faults which are found with the untrue gathering of them / are not taken away by M. Doctor / but only in confident and bold asseverations. And if I should say any thing / I should but repeat their words.

In the view of the second admonition / M. Doctor doth as it seemeth of purpose / cull out those things which he hath spoken on before / and in repeatyng of them / referreth his reader unto his boke. Divers other matters there are / of great weight / which he speaketh not of / if he do approve them / it had been well he had signified his liking: if he do not / that he had confuted them. And if he travailed so heauely of bringing forth of this book / that it was as heavy a burden unto him / as Solomon saith a fond word is unto an unwise man: he might have taken day to answer it. Now by this slender answering of it / or rather not answering at all / but only asking howe this and that is proved / (where as being proved / it is unreproved of him) he doth his cause more harm / then he is aware of. For unless his proofs be joined with his expulsions / imprisonments / and with all that racket which he maketh in Cambridge to the uttermost of that his authority will stretch unto / he may be well assured / that their driving out / will draw in the truth / and their imprisonment / will set the truth at greater liberty / and thereby prove it self to be neither Papistry / nor Anabaptistry / Donatistry / Catharisme / nor any other heresy which are by due correction repressed. But as for the truth of God / the more it is laden / the straighter it standeth / and y ^e more it is kept under / the more it enforceth it self to rise / and will undoubtedly get up / howe great so ever the stone be / which is laid upon it. And albeit he had no leisure to answer the matters which required his answer / yet he carpeth at by matters / and asketh who are meant by the political Macheuils.

What if they mean master doctor / and such other / which under the pretence of policy / would overthrow the church / and that by those things which have scarce a show of policy / and in deed overturn the policy and government of the Lord. And I pray you tell me M. doctor who be those superyors / which do contemn / hate / discourage / and frumpe those which execute the laws of the realm / of the which you speak in the. 88. page. And where you add by and by / that they envy all men of great authority / wit / and policy / I have answered this speech before. And truly I think there is not in Meshecke / so slanderous a tongue to be found as this is / nor the Juniper coals are not comparable with it. After he accuseth the admonition / as if it condemned schools and universities with all manner degrees / when it doth but inveigh against degrees given of custom / rather then of right / rather by money / then by merit of learning / and when titles of doctorshyp be given to those which have not the office of a Doctor / and oftentimes to those which cannot do the office if they had it / and when men do seek vain glory in them / and such like.

For the repetition of Gloria patri. &c. I have spoken sufficiently before: but what spirit is it / that calleth this translation of the word battologefete, (use not vain repetitions) a wicked wresting of S. Matthews place in his .vi. chapter. What razor is this / that cutteth so sharp? knoweth he against whom / and against the excellent learning / and singular piety of howe many he speaketh? For this is the translation of those learned / and godly men / which translated the Bible / which is commonly called the Geneva Bible: and is this a wicked wresting? Admit it were not translated exactly / to the word of the Evangelist: is it therefore a wresting / and a wicked wresting? What (I will not say wicked / but) false conclusion / or doctrine can be grounded of this translation? And they that translate it thus / have not only the authority of y ^e Lexicons to confirm their translation / which show that this word was taken up / in reproach of a folysh Pocte called Battus, which used to repeat one thing many times: but they have also the circumstance of the place to warrant it. For the reason which our savior Christ useth / to draw men from this fault leadeth to this translation / and cannot stand with that sense / which M. doctor setteth down. For how hāg these together: you shall not babble many words without faith. &c. because your heavenly father knoweth / what you have need of / before you ask? It is unlike first / that our savior Christ would speak thus (babble not many words w ^t out faith. &c.) when as rather he would have forbidden them to speak any one word without faith. &c. For if he should speak thus / he should seem to have allowed a prayer without faith / so that it were not conceived in many words. And again / if (as M. doctor saith) this had been the proposition / which our savior Christ dissuaded from / y ^• they should not babble many words without faith. &c. he would never have added this reason / (for your heavenly father knoweth. &c.) for neither is he father unto any such: And he would rather have said as S. James saith / that they should be sure to receive nothing / because they ask not in faith. Now as this reason cannot stand with M. Doctors interpretation: so doth it well agree with the translation of the Geneva Bible. For what could be more fitly said to drive the disciples from this vain repetition / then to say / that the heavenly father knoweth. &c. and that it is not with the Lord / as it is with men / that must have a thing oftentimes spoken / or ever they can understand it? Furthermore / what a reason is this: We must repeat the Lord's prayer oftentimes / therefore we must repeat it oftentimes in half an hour / and one in the neck of another? And if s. Paul's place to the Thessalonians / (pray continually) be referred unto the saying of the Lord's prayer (as M. doctor would bear us in hand) then it is not lawful for us to use any other words / then those which our savior Christ used. But I could never yet learn / that those words bind us of necessity / anymore unto the repetition of the Lord's prayer word for word / then unto the repetition of any other godly prayer in the scripture. And I would be loath to say that it were simply necessary / to use that just number of words / and neither more / nor les at any time / much les oftentimes in so small a space. For our savior Christ doth not there give a prescript form of prayer / whereunto he bindeth us: but giveth us a rule and squire to frame all our prayers by / as I have before declared. I know it is necessary to pray / and to pray often. I know also that in so few words it is impossible for any man to frame so pithy a prayer: And I confess that the church doth well in concluding their prayers with the Lord's prayer: but I stand upon this / that there is no necessity laid upon us / to use these very words and no more / and especially that the place of S. Paul to the Thessalonians doth least of all prove it. As for M. Doctors outcries / he hath so often worn our ears with them / and that without cause / that I think by this time / no man regardeth them.

A short Reply unto M. Doctors brief answer / which he maketh to certain godly Admonitions and Exhortations / which he calleth pamphletes.

WHere the saith the authors of the admonition are not punished / or their boke misliked / for that it telleth of the faults in the church / or of y ^e sins of men / but for y ^t it maintaineth false doctrine / and for that they preferred a libel: For the doctrine / it appeareth by that which is said / what it is. And if he would define what a libel were / it were easy to answer unto the other point. If he mean because it was preferred without any name unto it / howe will he answer unto the example of the writer of the Epistle unto the Hebrews / which was a singular instrument / and did not subscribe his Epistle / wherein notwithstanding / he sharply rebuketh diverse faults amongst them. And yet the writer to the Hebrews / was not the minister of Satan. And if he call it a libel / because it useth some sharper speeches / surely all men see that his boke deserveth then to be called a Satire / having for tarte words / bitter / and for one / twenty. But in what respect so ever he call it a libel / he accuseth not so much the authors of the admonition for preferring of it / as diverse of the honorable house of Parliament / which did alowe it. Whereas master Doctor compareth us with the Pharisees / and saith we do all to be seen of men / and that we hold down our heads in the streets / and strain at a gnatte / swalowing down a Camel / because they are in all men's knowledge / I will leave it to them to judge of the truth of those things. Where he saith we seldom / or never laughe / it is not therefore that we think that it is not lawful to laughe / but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches / and of the ruins of ours / with the heavy judgments of the Lord which hang over us / ought to turn our laughing into weeping / besides that a man may laugh / although he show not his tethe. And so Jerome in effect / answereth in an epistle which he wrote / where upon occasion that certain used the same accusation / that M. doctor doeth / he saith / because we do not laugh with open mouth / therefore we are counted sad.

And where he saith / we separate our selves from all congregations / and are enemies to Prince / and that we would seem to be holier then other / these and such like slanders are answered before. And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers / or spitte in any man's face / or wish the plague of God to light upon them / or say that they be damned / we defend not / nor allow of any such behauyor. And it is unreasonable / that the fault of one / should be imputed to so many / and to those which do as much mislyke of it / as M. doctor himself. And what needed. M. Doctor to bid the authors of these exhortations to hold their hands? where do they in a word / offer to strike? belike his tongue is his own / and therefore he speaketh whatsoever he lysteth.

After M. Doctor confuteth his own shadow. For the exhortation doth not require that the name of a brother should deliver the authors of the admonition from punishment if they deserved it / but desireth that it might work some moderation of the rigoure of it / and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison. He saith that the authors of the Admonition / take not them for their brethren / yes verily / although unbrotherly handled / & for fathers to / and so both love them / and reverence them / until (which we hope will not be) they shall manifestly for the upholding of their own kingdom and profit / refuse to have Christ reign over us / in whom this fatherhoods and brotherhoode doth consist.

I know not whether they have been conferred with or no / but I think the first reason which they had to persuade them / was / that they should go to Newgate / which is that / which the Exhortation complaineth of after / that they are first punished / before they be taught. And in this behalf M. doctor hath no cause to complain as he doth. For if he list / he may learn or ever he go to prison. And as for the truth of the cause / and wresting and mangling of the scriptures / in most places where they are said to mangle and wrest / and how he hath answered the request of the exhortation / which is: to confute the admonition by the scriptures / & how truly / aptly / & learnedly M. doctor hath behaved himself / in citing of the old Councils / & Fathers: I leave it to be esteemed / partly / of that which I have said / and partly / by the deeper consideration of those / which because they can better judge / may see further into M. Doctors faults / and rapsodies then I can. Although the truth is / that I have / because I would not make a long book / by heaping of one reprehension upon another / contented myself rather to trip / as it were / and to pass over with a light foot / the Heades / and Summes of things / then to number the faults which are almost / as many as there are sentences in this book / more I am sure then there are pages.

ACcording to my promise made in my boke / I have here set down the judgment of the later writers / concerning these matters in controversy between us. Wherein because I love not to translate out of other men's works / whereby I might make mine to grow: I have kept this moderation / that I neither set down all the writers / nor all their places / that I could / nor yet of every singular matter: but the chiefest writers / and other of the chiefest points / or else of those / wherein they are alleged against us by M. Doctor / and one only place of eche (as far as I could judge and choose out) most direct to that wherefore I have alleged it. For otherwise if I would have spoken of all the points / and of the judgment of all the writers / and gathered all the places that I could / they would have been sufficient matter of another book as big / or rather bigger then this. I must also admonish the Reader / that I have for borne in certain of these Titles / to set down the judgments of M. Beza / M. Bullinger and M. Gwalther: because they are comprehended in the Confessyon of the Churches. And thus / partly upon those sentences which I have alleged in this book / and partly upon these Testimonies here set down: I leave to the consideration of all men / how truly / and justly it is said / that the learned writers of these times (one or two only excepted) are against us.

1 That there ought now to be the same regiment of the Church / which was in the Apostles time.

THe confession of the Heluetian / Tygurin / Berne / Geneva / Polonia / Hungary / and Scotland with others / in the. 18. chapter / speaking of the equality of the ministers saith / that no man may justly forbid to return to the old constitution of the church of God / and to receive it before the custom of man.

M. Calvin in his Institututions. 4. book. 3. chapter / and 8. section / speaking of the ancients which did assist the pastor in every church / saith that experience teacheth / that that order was not for one age / & that this office of government is necessary to all ages. And in the. 12. chapter / and first section of the same book saith as much of Excommunication and other Ecclesiastical censures.

Peter Martyr upon the third to the Rom. teacheth that although the common wealth change her government / yet the church always keepeth hers still.

Bucer in his first book of the kingdom of Christ. 15. chapter / lamenteth that there were found amongst those which are counted of the forwardest Christians / which would not have the same discipline used now / that was in the times of the Apostles / objecting the differences of times / and of men.