Conference Between Rainolds and Hart

: that she seemeth to have mingled the sustenance of life not with filth, but with poison; and the wine of God not with water, but with venoome; and the bread of Christ not with leaven, but with ratsbane, or rather (if I might speak so) men's-bane. As for want of God's word, (which is the other cause of sickness) how wretchedly she hath pined her children therewith: our ancestors felt by long experience, and aged men may remember, and histories of the church do witness, and they who are under the Popish yoke know. For though she permitted, sometimes, in some places, perhaps, a small parcel, of the word of God, (if I may call that God's word which savored more of men's devises then of God ) to be touched, in the presence and assembly of the people, by common cryers, preachers, such as they were: yet she hath not only not permitted to Christians, but also hath hindered, with no less impiety then inhumanity, yea, and hindereth still that abundance and plenty which they ought to have, as it is written, Let the word of Christ dwell in you plenteously with all wisdom. For whereas this plenty is gotten & obtained by two special means, to weete, by hearing, & by reading; the one commanded all in Church-assemblies publicly, y ^e other allowed privately to every man at home, both used and approved by the rules of the holy Ghost, and the practice of holy companies, and the judgment of holy churches: our Romanists pretending that horrible confusion will ensue thereof, and the church of Christ shall be like to Babylon, not to Jerusalem, (as Cardinal Hosius saith), if the holy scriptures be read in mother toongs, do keep them sealed up in a strange tongue, and sound them out so in their Church-assemblies, that the people may have eyes, and not read them; ears, and not hear them. In the which fact whither they show them selves more disobedient to God, or injurious to the people; it is hard to say: since God hath expressly commanded that all things must be doon to edify, that is, to build up; and things not understood (I trow) build not up, no not the tower of Babylon. But by this means the people cannot hear the word of God publicly, because he speaketh to them in an outlandish tongue, and a strange language. Which thing the Lord laid on the Jews for a punishment: the Roman Church doth thrust it on Christians for a benefit. Much less are they able privately to read it: because they neither have the scriptures translated into their mother toongs; and many (in the time of our predecessors) were condemned as heretics, for reading part thereof which they had translated. Wherefore since the plenty of the word of God, which it is a point of very heinous wickedness not to procure for Christians, more heinous not to allow it them, most heinous not to permit it them, is not only not permitted but hindered by the Church of Rome, and hindered not only by laws but by fire too: I will not use sharper words against her tyranny; only this I say, that he must be impudent needs who would deny that she hath brought in a famine of the word. The causes then of sickness, are manifestly found in the Church of Rome, both for the corruption and scarcity of the food of life. Now, such as the cause is, such is the effect : and out of bitter fountains there issue bitter waters. The less marvel is it that her effects and functions bewray sore diseases, such as must of likelihood proceed from such causes. For a sound and whole Church, the faculties and powers whereof are not impaired, hath four special functions, as the scriptures show: namely, to teach the faith, to minister the sacraments, to pray, and practice discipline according to the word of God. But neither is the faith of Christ purely taught, nor sacraments rightly ministered, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duly practiced by the Church of Rome. The Church of Rome therefore is not whole and sound: no more then was his daughter who said unto Christ, my daughter is at the point of death. For, to say a little of ech of these in order, the sum of the doctrine of the Christian faith is the salvation of the faithful by Jesus Christ the lamb of God. Of the which salvation the beginning cometh from the grace of God, the substance consisteth in the righteousness of God, the end is referred to the glory of God by the holy scriptures. This holy religion which maketh God all in all for our salvation, giving the whole to him and taking it from men, that we may trust not in flesh but in the Lord only, doth savor of Christian modesty too much, it contenteth not the Roman pride and arrogancy. And therefore as Prometheus (in the Greek fables) is said to have allotted part of a sacrifice to Jupiter, part to him self: even so the Prometheus of the Popish Church (in the Roman faith) assigneth and referreth the beginning of our salvation in part to God's grace, in part to the power of nature ; the substance of our salvation in part to God's righteousness, in part to man's merits ; the end of our salvation in part to God's glory, in part to the honor and worship of creatures. Neither is this doon by someone Prometheus, or Epimetheus rather: but by y ^e whole company of the Epimetheans, even the Council of Trent, though closely sometimes to cover their deceit with darkness, yet so, that their expositors bring their hidden meanings out into the light. For, first and foremost, they will have the natural power and ability of their own will ( free-will they term it) to be concurrent (as they speak) with the grace of God, that is, a party-worker with it: as if God did only relieve the will being weak, and raise it up being faint, not renew it being corrupted, and repair it being perished. Besides, they imagine that infidels and faithless men do certain works (they call them works of preparation ) in which, though being doon without faith, they sin not; nay, they procure the grace of God thereby. So they bring to pass as much as lieth in them, at least they endeavor, what by the power of free-will, what by their works of preparation : that all be not attributed to the grace of God, which grace is with them, as Paul saith of himself, but to the grace of God with them, (as those words of Paul are ill expressed in their translation,) that is, some what to God's grace, and somewhat to their own merit, at least as to a merit of meetenes and conueniency. As for the righteousness of God, which is given us in Christ, while we are cleansed from our sins and acquitted as righteous before God's judgment-seat by the sacrifice of Christ offered for the faithful, and the obedience of Christ imputed to the faithful: they contemn this righteousness, yea and condemn it as heretical. In the steed whereof as of a vain righteousness, or at least to it as to a righteousness vnperfit, they put the righteousness of men, consisting of their own works and merits of woorthines: works and merits, wrought by the grace of Christ, they will say, I grant; yet of their own works, and merits of woorthines, (as the Schoolmen name them,) that is to say, the woorthines whereof doth deserve and merit everlasting life. That so they may enjoy it, not of gift, but of duty ; by their own merit, not by Christ's; as triumphers, not as suitors; not as beggars, but as conquerors : after the glorious vant of the Louan-divinity. To y ^t which purpose they do not extenuate only the worthiness of the merits of Christ, in so much that they supply the weakness thereof with their own merits, & other men's; with due works, and undue ; with Masses, Trentals, Pardons, Pilgrimages, with treasures of the church, with prayers of the Saints, finally, wit satisfactions while they are alive, and after death with pains to be endured in Purgatory : but also they extol and lift up to the sky the woorthines of their own merits, professing most proudly that they are able to do the law of God perfectly, and truly to merit everlasting life : yea, to do more then they are bound by God's law, even works (as they term them) of supererogation, thereby to help foolish virgins with their oil. And hence it cometh too, that they do no less extenuate their own sins, then they extol their own virtues: neither make they only venial sins of mortal, and change the commandments of God into counsels : but also deny concupiscence to be sin, acquitting fleshly lusts (wherewith we being pricked do rebel against the Lord) from gilt of transgression. By the which doctrine, how much so ever they add to their own merits, or take away from their own sins, while they go about to be justified by works : yet gain they nothing else but that with a wonderful tormenting of conscience they mistrust still, and stand in dout of their salvation. Which thing themselves deny not: nay, they teach that they ought to dout, and mistrust, because they know not whether they have merits enough. So that we may justly say that their doctrine is not a doctrine of faith, and belief, but of mistrust, and dout rather. And what marvel is it, that they, who pluck away so much from the grace and righteousness of God, do abate no less of the glory of God ? whose worship and honor they communicate and impart, I say not with Saints, with elect Angels, with the blessed Virgin, whom they make equal to Christ in being free from all sins: but (which is more shameful) with relics, with images, with scurfe of all scurfe, and things most vile and contemptible, against the Lord's commandment God only shalt thou serve. They make a distinction (I grant) that to these things they give a lesser honor, called Dulia: but the greater honor called Latria, they give to God only. Which is vain and false. For they give the greater honor, even Latrîa, not only to the sacrament of the body of Christ, the consecrated bread, wherein they will excuse themselves because they hold it to be their Lord and God : but also to the cross of Christ, the wooden cross, nay to the image thereof, as Thomas of Aquine their Angelical Doctor teacheth and confirmeth by the practice of the church, and Cardinal Cajetan liketh it, nor doth Andradius deny it, but defend it stoutly. Wherefore since the doctrine of the faith of Christ doth set forth unto us our wretchedness, and God's goodness; our naughtiness, and God's mercy; that we, through the knowledge of God and of our selves, thinking of him religiously, and of our selves modestly, may conceive assured trust, that salvation is given us in Christ, by the grace of God, through the righteousness of God, to the glory of God : can there be any fellowship & communion between this doctrine & the doctrine of the faith of Rome, which planteth superstition, in steed of religion; pride, in steed of modestly; douting, in steed of trusting; a Pharisaical vanity, in steed of Christian piety, that is (at one word) unfaithfulness, in steed of faith ? Now, what shall I say touching the sacraments ? how those holy rites delivered us by Christ to seal the grace of God unto us, have been increased in number, impaired in virtue, depraved with errors, polluted with ceremonies, defiled with men's inventions, and spoiled of their fruit by reason they were ministered in a strange tongue. With the which anoyances to let pass in silence how greatly and grievously the Romanists have hurt baptism, whereof the substance yet and as it were the life hath been preserved whole and sound through God's mercy: they have corrupted the supper of the Lord so foully, with so great and many errors and abuses, that there is almost no token of his supper to be found in it. For they have made of a sacrament, a sacrifice ; not a sacrifice of thanks giving, but propitiatory ; nor propitiatory as representing Christ, but truly and properly propitiatory ; to be offered by a Mass-priest, as by a new Priest after the order of Melchizedek ; and offered not only for the quick, but for the dead too; nor for the quick and dead only to save them, but also to rid their pigges from diseases, and to serve their turn for whatsoever other chares. They offer up anew that one and only sacrifice, which being once offered hath sanctified us forever, and make the death of Christ to be of no effect. They take away the human nature of Christ by the real presence. They take away the holy sign, that is the sacrament, by transubstantiation. They take away the right use of the communion by their private Masses. They take away the ordinance of our Lord and Savior, they take away the singular comfort of the faithful, they take away a most sweet pledge of salvation, by their maimed communion under one kind. They take away almost religion it self, at least they profane it with a cursed custom of superstition more then heathenish, in that they carry a cake ( the body of Christ they call it) about in processions, to be worshipped as God : and before the Pope they mount it on a horse, with lanterns, and a bell, in a manner as the Persians did carry fire (their God) before the king of Persians. As for public prayers, ordained to this end, that the people of God banding them selves together (as Tertullian speaketh) might do their suite & service to God with joined force : the Romanists not contented to rob God of his honor by praying to creatures, yea to dumb creatures (which is more abominable) oil, stones, crosses, images, saying to a stock, thou art my father, and to a stone, thou hast brought me forth, like ^m the idolaters in Jeremiah ; they rob the people of God both of a duty, and of an aide, by praying in a strange tongue; wherein neither can they pray together with them, nor be stirred up thereby to true devotion. For it is a small faute in these men, to pray for the dead, that they may be rid out of the pains of Purgatory : & to babble in praying with vain repetitions, as if God were served By reckoning up their mutteringes upon a pair of beads. Though these things are also beside the word of God : and therefore not of faith : & therefore of sin. Yet in these men they are small faults: at least they have some coolour either of old custom, or of man's reason, or of zeal without knowledge. But to pray to God in words not understood, like popiniayes, or parrats, it is so absurd a matter in reason, so wicked in religion, so contrary to the express commandment of the Lord, & judgment of the Apostle, and practice of the church, I say not of the church of the Jews, or of the Syrians, or of the Greeks, or of the Latins, but the church generally, even of all churches from the beginning of the world till the dark ages in which the Barbarians of late did overflow them: that such as do use it, may be thought to dote; such as defend it, seem to have a lust to be mad with reason. It remaineth for me to entreat of discipline : whereof this is the order set down in the scripture, that the church should be governed by the ministers of God, according to the laws of God, to the saluatiō of God's people. And what one of these pointes is kept in the church of Rome ? In the which the ministers of God are removed from governance by the Pope : who, being not a voluntary Senator (as Tully iesteth at Asinius ) himself chosen by him self, but a voluntary tyrant, doth take upon him self the rule of y ^e whole church. Who to get the sovereignty that he aspireth to, doth cast off the folly of Paul, and of Peter: and neither will him self, nor suffereth his to be subject unto higher powers. Who autoriseth him self to give and take away the dominions and kingdoms of the whole world, as if that all Princes held their right of him. Who challengeth the two swords (as he termeth them,) the spiritual and temporal, and that by the gospel, because it was said (for sooth) by the Apostles, Behold, her • are two swords. Who, having committed the temporal sword in part to civil magistrates, and reserved it in part to him self; hath put up the spiritual sword of all Pastors into his own sheath. Who of church-ministers hath made him self Cardinals, fellows of kings, gardians of Princes, Protectors of nations, a Senate meet for such a • arquin. Who exacteth an oth of Emperors, of Bishops, of Christian common wealths, Universities, and Churches to be obedient unto him. Who admitteth, I say not Cornelius the Centurion, (which Peter yet would never have doon,) but the Lord's of Centurions, even Kings and Keisars, Emperors and Empresses, to kiss his blessed feet. Finally, who being in Princely attire, and accompanied with Princely train; served not by common, but by noble men; wearing, not a single, but a tripl • Crown; called by his Parasites our Lord God the Pope, by discreet Doctors, most good in grace, most great in power ; as full of riotous pomp, and pride, as ever were the Persian kings; hath taken the state ecclesiastical of Christ, appointed in noble order as an army set in array, and hath transformed it as it were with an enchauntment of the whore of Babylon into a visisible monarchy, and kingdom of the Romans. And that the old saying might be fulfilled, new Lord's, new laws; such lips, such lettise, (as one said of an asse that was eating thistles:) this new Prince the Pope hath brought in new laws to govern his kingdom, in steed of God's laws which Christ would have to rule his Church ; and in steed of the Canon of the holy scriptures he hath ordained his Canon law. Touching the unrighteousness of the which law, (least any man should think me perhaps to find fault with that I have no skill in, as the shoomaker did, whom Apelles warned not to presume beyond his shoe :) I had leiffer you should hear the judgment of a learned Doctor and professor of the law, then mine. Francis Duaren, a man of great skill in both the laws, civil, and canon, and named amongst lawiers the chiefest lawyer of our time, hath written a learned treatise touching the holy functions and livings of the Church, as it were an abridgement of the canon law: allowed by the judgment of the Parliament of Paris • , and set forth with the privilege of the French king, that no man can just • y 〈◊〉 either the autor, or the work, as heretical. In 〈…〉 then of the said treatise, declaring that the body of the Canon law consisteth of two parts, to weete, Decrees, and 〈◊〉 Decrees, which were gathered together by Gratian; 〈◊〉 , epistles written by sundry Popes : he saith, that in the • ir • t volume of Decretales, containing five books set out in the name of Gregory the ninth, there are many things that do much degenerate and grow out of kind from that old discipline comprised in the former book of Decrees. And hence arose that saying, which is common and famous amongst our countrymen, (he meaneth the Frenchmen:) Things have gone ill with men, since tales were added to Decrees, that is, since y ^e time that in steed of y ^e Decrees the Decretales did bear sway. For the Church-causes had lost their old simplicity, when Decrees were patched out with those tales: as the world is wont to grow worse and worse, So destenies do provide That all things fall unto decay, and back efisoones they slide. As for the other volume, the sixth book of Decretales, which Bo • iface the eighth added, it hath not been received in the kingdom of France, because the constitutions and ordinances thereof are thought to have been purposely made (the most part of them) in hatred and despite of Philip the French king, and for the game of the court of Rome. No not the Clementines neither, nor Extrauagants, the last part of the Decretales, are void of like faults: nay, the later laws of the Popes be commonly worse then the former. And this is the body of the Canon-law, these are the Popes statutes, by the which, though very unmeet for the church (in Duarens judgment) yet is the church of Rome governed: and it is so governed, that the Decrees (which are the better part) have less authority; the Decretales (which are worse) have greater force in Church-causes, and are more authentical Yea, the matter came to that pass, that Gratian the principal autor of the Canon law, would have had the Decretal epistles of the Popes to be accounted holy, and reckoned in the number of the Canonical scriptures. For the better compassing and credit whereof he did most shamefully corrupt a saying of S. Austin's. But it would not • ay. In so much that the Papists, Alfonsus, and Andradius, are them selves ashamed of that his, either willful fault, or oversight. The Decretales therefore remain, not in the number of the Canonical scriptures, which hope the Giants failed of through the division of their tongues: yet equal in authority to the canonical scriptures, yea, above them, in deciding Church-causes at Rome. For that which S. Bernard complained off to Pope Eugenius long since, he might complain off to any Pope in our time, if he were alive: the laws keep a great stir daily in your Palace, but the laws of Justinian, not the laws of the Lord. Whether justly or no: look you to that. For doutlesse the law of the Lord is undefiled, and converteth souls. But these are not so much laws as law-quarrels, and strifes subuerting judgment. Besides that, the manner of dealing which is used in debating causes is too too abominable, and such as is marvelous unseemly for the church: nay it were not seemly for the common place, where civil matters are handled. He meaneth that manner, which the Popes Court of Chauncerie at Rome had bred long before, though it were not grown yet to that bigness to which it shot up afterward: even that manner of dealing, which is practiced in the brabbles and cavils of advocates, fitter to subvert then to find the truth; in the pleas of lawiers, who bring in sleights of falsehood and fraud against innocence, stop up the ways of judgment, beat down the simplicity of truth; in dilatory shifts, and other such instruments of making gain by suites, which came from the laws, but from the laws of Justinian (as Bernard saith) not of the Lord. These are the laws then which the Pope useth, and useth, to what end? which is the last point. He useth them, not to further the salvation of God's people, but to satisfy (if yet a horseleach might be satisfied) his own and his Courtiers insatiable covetousness, ambition, and lust. For what hath the outrageous tyranny of the beast respected else but that, in the Church-offices, Church-censures, and Church-causes? Why hath he withdrawn suites from other places to the Court of Rome ? Why hath he reserved cases to him self? Why hath he dispensed with laws at his pleasure? why hath he made and unmade them? He hath taken into his own hands the elections of Bishops from them whom they belonged to. The Christian ministers, magistrates, and people he hath robbed and spoiled of their due and right. He hath committed the feeding and guiding of the flock of Christ to brute and beastly creatures. He hath let and set the charge, or the commodity rather, of churches, as he would himself, and to whom he would, by presentations, preventions, provisions, reservations, translations, permutations, aduousons, & commendaes. He hath ordained Pastors without a room of Pastorship, Ministers without a functiō: benefices without cure, sacrileges without punishment. The goods of the church, that is the living of the Pastors, and maintenance of the poor, he hath impaired with pensions, embesilled with first fruits, made away with appropriations, seized on with sundry wrongs, and spent them wastefully with lusts, to the common out-cries of men reproving him for pride, for riot, for extortion, and for simony. He hath not permitted the causes of the church to be debated and decided there where they arose, as equity, as reason, as peace, as the judgment of Councils and Fathers would he should have doon: but he hath removed them thence to be heard and determined at Rome, what by reserving of cases to him self, what by fetching matters with the fishers signet, what by exempting men from their Ordinaries, what by allowing appeals from all coasts to the Lord Apostolic. The censures of the church in excommunication ordained to cut the wicked off (as rotten members) from the company of Christians, he hath used and exercised, not against the wicked, of whom a sink hath flowed of old time to Rome, and overfloweth it still; not against thieves, of whom (a Pope witnesseth) Rome is made a den; not against murderers, for whom there is a sanctuary in the very houses of Cardinals at Rome ; not against adulterers, whose offense was punished with death by the old Romans, now they are toyed with; not against whores, which set themselves to open sale under the Pope, who playeth the baude and gaineth by it; not against whooremongers, whom he preferreth somewhere before married persons, and leacherie before chastity, which the Canonist noteth as a wonderful case: but he hath exercised it against Emperors, Princes, States, and nations, that would not serve him at a beck; against any magistrate that did but lay hands upon a clergy-man; against any Christian, that denied his parish-priest a little tithe; against whole assemblies and companies of the faithful, who worshipped (as Paul ) the God of their fathers after that way, (which Papists call heresy,) believing all things which are written in the law and the Prophets. Whom he with most vilanous cruelty and treachery, as if they had been sheep appointed to the slaughter, hath rid away by torments, by fire, by sword; not himself, for he came not into the judgment hall least he should be defiled, but he hath delivered them to Pilate to be crucified: and when the streams of water did flow with blood at Paris, old men and maidens and babes being murdered without all respect of sex, or age, or state, he sang a song of joy for the French marriage, and celebrated with bonfyres and processions at Rome a most outrageous act of more then Scythian barbarousnes. What should I reckon up his tyrannical laws, wherewith he hath oppressed the Church intolerably? Of single life imposed on ministers of the word, of auricular confession, of the choice of meats, apparel, and days, of the new and strange canonizing of Saints, of pilgrimages to holy land, of the vows of Moonkes and Nuns, of the state and rites of marriage, of innumerable ceremonies, partly unfruitful, partly foolish, partly impious, whereof some sprang from heathens, some from the Jews, and some from heretics. What should I say of his wicked dispensations, if yet they deserve the name of dispensations, and not (as Bernard rather doth call them) dissipations ; wherewith there is nothing so holy and religious which he hath not polluted, nothing so profane which he hath not permitted: that a brother may mary his own brothers wife, an uncle his sisters daughter ; that Church-offices and livings may be given to boys, to Simoniacal merchants, to unlearned persons, and such as are unfit for them; that one man may have a plurality of benefices ; that he who hath the benefice, need not attend the office, the steward not provide meat for God's household, the servant and minister not do the work of God, the angel and messenger not show the will of God, the shepherd and pastour not feed the flock committed to him; that subjects may be discharged of their oth and fealty, & licensed to withdraw allegiance from their Prince, yea, take arms against him, yea lay violent hands on the anointed of the Lord; that promise may be broken with God and with men; that abominations most horrible may be committed; that all things divine and human may be perverted; right and wrong, heaven and earth, lawful and unlawful, may be confounded together. And can it be douted but that this so monstrous, so pestilent, so misshapen foulness and corruption of laws and of discipline, was instituted and inducted by this king of Rome, not to set forward the salvation of the Church, but to fill his greedy appetite of gold and lust of dominion? Doo not his own Friars witness that all things Doo not his Courtiers allow of their judgment who say that the pomp of the church would be abated, which he sought to increase with anoyance of religion ? Doo not ^q Cardinals acknowledge that Christians are wiped of their goods and substance by first fruits, and other policies of the Popes, to the end that he and his Courtly train may be more rich in wealth, more galant in bravery, more high in Princely state? Hath not all Christendom borne to their grief the yoke of the ambition and covetousness of Rome, which crieth out like Judas, what will ye give me ? There is extant in print the defense and Apology of the Church of England, showing fresh marks of the Roman tyranny, wherewith our country hath been seared as with a hot burning iron. There is extant a supplication of the parliament of Paris, wherein the Frenchmen request their king to ease them of the cursed extortions, injuries, and guiles of the Court of Rome. There are extant the hundred greeuances of Germany, whose complaints (written as it were with their own blood) do show with what outrage the See of Rome hath thrown down, oppressed, bruised, and spoiled that most noble nation. There are extant infinite books of lamentations, written by learned men of all coasts & quarters in the midst of the Papacy: confessing all with one consent that the discipline of the church is greatly decayed. The Papists themselves in the Council of Trent do not confess it only, but also witness it by public writing to the world. There was gathered together a Council at Constance, about an eight score years since, that the church might be reformed, both in the head and in the members. The matter, not being accomplished at Constance, was enterprised again at Basel. But Eugenius the fourth (who was Pope then) could not abide the reformation, and therefore revoked the Council of Basel by messages and bulls: which since they disobeied, he brake it up by force of arms. And whereas there was made an act by the French king with his States, that sundry decrees and ordinances of that Council should be of force in France : the Popes who succeeded Eugenius never rested, till they had gotten that act repealed. The last hope remained in the Council of Trent: and truly many things were decreed there for points of reformation wisely, and worthily. But three spots of mischiefs, touched by Heruetus (a Papist, of so much the greater weight his testimony is against Papists,) do renew the old corruptions: one, that the decrees, although they were made, were not observed yet ; another, that although they should be observed, yet they are not such as might restore fully the ancient good orders ; the last, that although they restored the ancient orders, yet do they little good, because the Pope is not bound to laws him self, and he dispenseth with whom he list : so that medicines heal not the wounds, but make them worse, as long as the Pope may repeal, alter, pervert, and break through the decrees of the Council, with his dispensations. And, out of all dout, that detestable clause annexed to decrees of reformation in the Council, provided always that the Popes authority be safe, and no way prejudiced : doth show the Roman Church to be not only sick, but also past hope of recovering her health. For as in men's bodies the greater the spleen waxeth, y ^e lesser wax the rest of the members, they say: so the more safe the Popes authority is, the less safe will all parts of the Church be.

The Court of Rome with poison strong infected to destroy, With the contagion of her sores doth countries all annoy. Wherefore to knit up the sum of my reason, seeing it is manifest by the very evidence of the things themselves, that nether the faith of Christ is taught purely, nor the sacraments rightly ministered, nor prayers made religiously, nor discipline duly practiced in y ^e Church of Rome : if the former reason of causes seem too weak, yet is it fully proved (I hope) by the effects, that the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic church. How much more absurd were it to count her the Catholic Church. The Church of Rome therefore is neither the Catholic, nor a sound member of the Catholic Church.

I have stayed longer in opening this Conclusion, then I had purposed: but I may run over the last so much the more speedily. For knowing how the Church of Rome is infected with pestilent diseases, the contagion whereof, as the lepers sore, because it is dangerous to them who dwell near it, must therefore be removed out of the campe of the faithful: we may be assured that the reformed Churches in England, Scotland, France, Germany, and other kingdoms & common weals, have severed themselves lawfully from the Church of Rome. For that is done lawfully which is done by the warrant of the word of God: all whose commandments are righteousness, saith the Prophet. But the reformed Churches obeyed his commandment in severing themselves from the Church of Rome. Therefore they severed themselves from the Church of Rome lawfully. For as ecclesiastical societies and Church-assemblies were ordained by God, that his elect and chosen should seek him and praise him, that is, learn to know him, and worship him being known: so where his right faith and knowledge is not taught, or he is not served and worshipped aright, thence doth he command his servants to depart. To depart, first, from that Church-assembly, where his right faith, and knowledge is not taught: the charge is given to Timothy. Whom S. Paul advertising of such as taught other doctrine, then he did, and not the wholesome words of Christ and godly doctrine, declareth the qualities and fruits of those wolves, and biddeth him depart from them: from such (saith Paul ) depart thou: depart thou frō their assembly, and Church. For so must such teachers be departed from: as himself declared by his example at Ephesus. Where he frequented the synagogue of y ^e Jews for the space of three months. But when certain obstinate & disobedient persons spake evil of the way of God before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples. So that he severed, not himself only, but others also from that Church, wherein the way of God was evil spoken of, and men were not taught to know and believe in him aright. Now, that we must likewise depart from that Church, wherein God is not served and worshipped aright: it is written to the Corinthians. Who being admonished to flee from idolatry, and from all communion with idolatrous worship, are charged not to yoke thenselves with idolaters in their assemblies & meetings. For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? light with darkness? Christ with Belial? the faithful with the infidel? the temple of God with idols? Wherefore come out from among them, and separate yourselves, saith the Lord. Separate yourselves from them, saith the Lord: the Lord saith, not I. The Lord saith to the Jews, go ye not up to Beth-auen : not Hosea, but the Lord saith. It is called Beth-el, but it is Beth-auen: the hie places of Auen are the sin of Israel. Therefore go ye not up to Beth-auen, saith the Lord. Thus we are expressly commanded by God to depart and separate our selves from those Churches, wherein the right ways, either of his knowledge, or of his worship, are perverted. Much more, from those Churches, wherein they are perverted both. But they are both perverted in the Church of Rome most notoriously: as I have declared. It remaineth then that the reformed Churches have severed themselves from the Church of Rome most lawfully & justly. And therefore our English Papists and the Louanists deal, shall I say, of ignorance, or of malice? but of whether soever, they deal very l • wd • lie: who to make us odious for severing our selves from the Church of Rome, as if we had played the schismatics therein, do report of us that we rent our selves from the Catholic Church as the Donatists did. Truly, or falsely: let the faithful judge. Chiefly, since it is manifest, that the Donatists found not any fault with Catholics, either for y ^e service wherewith they worshipped God, or for y ^e doctrine of God which they preached: but we have convicted y ^e Romanists of impiety, both for their idolatrous profaning of his service, and for their ungodly corrupting of his doctrine: and these men, who blame us, do themselves teach, that no man ought to join and communicate with that Church, whose service is idolatrous, whose doctrine is ungodly: in so much that the Louanists reprove (& that worthily) the Catholic Bishops of Afric, yea S. Austin too, for saying that the Prophets Elias, and Elisaeus, resorted to the Church, and service of the Israelites when it was stained with idola • try : and an English Papist condemneth (though unjustly) them who hear our sermons, because it is horrible sin to give patient hearing to blasphemies, such as (he saith) we preach. Wherefore if the Romish doctors themselves should sit in judgment upon us for trial of the schism and Donatism (so to term it) whereof they indite us: no doubt (unless their minds were overcast in like sort as were the eyes of Elymas ) they would acquit us of it; and pronounce of Christians, as Pilate did of Christ, I find no fault in him. For what have we done in forsaking their synagogue, y ^t may deserve the check of a severe Censour, much less the condemnation of an indifferent judge? Save in this (perhaps) that, as mad Fimbria complained of Scaeuola, we received not the whole weapō into our body. The Ministers of Christ were bound to preach the word of God. they preached it. To reprove the people's sins. they reproved thē. To suffer afflictions evē unto the shedding of their blood. they suffered. The people of Christ were bound to hear the pastors voice. they heard it. To worship God & serve him only. they did it. To profess their faith before men. they professed it. If against the will of Princes and Magistrates, as it fell out in France: they ought to obey rather God then men, as the Apostles told the rulers of Israel. If by the commandment of Princes and Magistrates, which befell to England through God's most gracious goodness, and we beseech him it may forever: they were to obey their Princes in the Lord, as the Priests, and Prophets, and people of the Jews did obey Josiah. Wherefore seeing all the reformed Churches (not to rehearse them in particular) following the same rule which England did & France, have severed themselves from the church of Rome, in such sort as they ought by the law of God: they are not seditious because they have done, but they were sacrilegious unless they had done so; nether have we dealt as schismatics in forsaking, but others deal as heretics in following the whore: whose hearts I would to God that might pierce into, which our Savior saith to his, touching Babylon, Go out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receue not of her plagues. And thus have I declared to you (reverend Syr) my judgment of the Conclusions which you proposed. In opening whereof although I have been longer, partly being moved with the weightiness of the pointes, and partly presuming of the patience of the hearers, then in this place is usual: yet have I purposely omitted many things which adversaries may object, because I thought they might be produced and answered in the disputation it self more conveniently.

John Rainolds to the Christian Reader.

I T is now five years almost, (gentle reader) since being occasioned by order of our University to handle and defend these Conclusions in disputation: I was moved to make them common unto many, that through the instruction and consolation of the scripture the church might reap some fruit of them. Howbeit as Apelles was wont to set forth his pictures at his stall, that, if any fault were found, he might amend it, before they were delivered to such as they were drawn for: the like have I done with mine, (though not like his,) by keeping thē in Latin at home as it were, that, if anything were justly blamed in them, it might be corrected, before I sent them abroad to English men. In the which respect, though I could hardly resist the importunate desire of sundry friends, of whom some had translated them, requesting that I would translate them myself or suffer theirs to be printed: yet I resisted it, & hope they took it in good part. But now being otherwise enforced to publish my conference with M. Hart : I have cōdescended unto their request, to do them into English, & publish them withal. The rather, because I have proved herein, that the faith professed by the Church of Rome is not the Catholic faith. The contrary whereof was the last point that M. Hart avouched. So that, seeing he brake off conference thereon, and would not put the faith of his church to that trial, to which he had put the Pope, the head of it: the godly, who will wish that also had been handled to the confusion of all Popery, may for want of larger repast take this sclenderer, as better half a loaf (men say) then no bread. And I am the bolder to set it before them: because Doctor Stapleton & Licentiate Martin, who, as evil physicians to get themselves work, do praise vnholesome baggage above wholesome food, have discōmended it. Chiefly, since their dealing therein hath been such, that they have shown greater stomach thē wisdom, as physicians of no value. For of four pointes that I find reproved by the former of them, in the last editiō of his doctrinal principles: one is, that I distinguish the militant and visible church from the Catholic, after a new sort, unskillfully, and fondly. The distinction thereof I grounded on the scripture: fond and new (it may be) to others, not to us. But the Doctor saw that Babylon would fall if the distinction stood. Wherefore if he had no stronger shot then this to discharge against it: I will bear with him; as in the rest of his taunts also. Loosers must have their words. An other point he carpeth at, is mine exposition of holy catholic church. Which I having proved by the Papists themselves, that it must needs signify the company of the chosen alone, not mixed with wicked ones, because (by their catechism) it is the body of Christ, & all the body of Christ is quickened by his spirit, which the wicked are not: he replieth that the church is said in the scripture to be the body of Christ quickened by his spirit, because some partes of it are so, not all the body. An answer somewhat strange: considering that the scripture, which I had alleged, saith that all the body of Christ is quickened so. As for that he noteth of the word [Catholic,] that I and Philip Mornay expound it not in one sort: Philip Mornayes excellent gifts, and fruitful labors, I reverence and love. And both of us having aimed at the truth: whether hath come nearer it, let the Prophets judge. But if, among Prophets in the church of Christ, somewhat be revealed to one, that is not to another: this justifieth not them, who say they are Jews, & are not, but are the Synagogue of Satan. Yet this is the soundest reason that he hath against my Conclusion; that the holy Catholic church which we believe is the whole company of God's elect and chosen. For touching that he addeth that he hath disproved it, by showing that the church is distinguished from heretical assemblies by the name of Catholic: he hath disproved it as soundly thereby, as if he should say, that the Catholic epistles in the New Testament, were not so called, as general, & written to no certain persons, because that other writings are named catholic also to distinguish them from heretical. The third point he taketh upon him to confute, is an argument that I made to prove my third Conclusion. All the words of scripture be the words of truth: some words of the Church be the words of error. But he that telleth the truth always, is more to be credited, thē he that lieth sometimes. Therefore the holy scripture is to be credited more thē is the Church. And to this argument (saith he) I answer briefly, that no words of the Church are the words of error, that is, that no erroneous thing is ever taught, defined, or approved, by the Church in her Bishops & Pastors teaching vniformly; in the decrees of Councils, chiefly of general Councils; in that which the Fathers teach with one consent; in her head, the Pope, defining, & delivering anything publicly; & finally in the rule of faith which all the Church holdeth: though • euerally some Bishops may privately err in teaching; and one or moe Fathers may write some untrue thing, or be in some er • or; and somewhat even in Councils, without the decree itself, may be said or reasoned inconueniently; and (to conclude) the Pope may be overseen privately in somewhat. But this must be certes imputed to the frailty of men, not to the Church her self. Which speech of D. Stapletons if it be an answer unto my argument: then can I tell him a very brief way to answer my Conclusions all with one word. How? By granting them all to be true. For though it were so, that nether Bishops teaching uniformly might err, nor Fathers consenting, nor Councils in decrees, nor the Pope in public and definitive sentence, which I both there, & else where have shown to be otherwise, but if it were so: yet seeing that Bishops and Fathers, and Councils, and the Pope himself may err (as he confesseth) in this or that point, and this or that manner ; he granteth that which I said, that some words of the Church are the words of error. But those words must certes (saith he) be imputed to the frailty of men, not to the Church her self. Now certes M Doctor is a merry mā: who can shift an argument off with such a jest. As though the Church her self consisted not of men : and therefore must needs offend so through frailty, the men offending so. The fourth and last point wherewith he findeth fault, is, that amongst the reasons why the Church of Rome is no sound member of the Catholic Church, I bring this, that, touching expounding of the Scripture, she condemneth all senses and meanings thereof, which are against the sense that her self holdeth, or against the Fathers consenting all in one. Whereof in that he gathereth that I allow not the expositions of the Fathers, yea, that I affirm that it is a mark and token of a false Church to admit the joint-consent of the Fathers in expounding of the scripture: he doth me great wrong. For, though by following too much brevity in Latin, I fell into obscurity, and said not so plainly that which I would, and should, as in the English now I have: yet that which I said, doth clear me of his slander, as D. Fulke hath shown; whom I can better thank for his defending of me, then deserve the praise that he hath given me therein. Nay, I was so far from noting that as faulty in the Church of Rome, that the fault which I noted was her vile abusing the name of the Fathers against their judgment in that point. For I declared straight in the words ensuing, that first she autoriseth thereby her own practice, as the right sense and meaning of the Scripture, though contrary to it self: next, she alloweth the puddles of the Schoolmen, & will have thē taken for waters of life : lastly, when some Fathers gainsay her, she rejecteth them, because they all consent not and admitteth them who do make for her, as having hit the mark. Of the which branches the last importeth not that I refuse the Fathers consenting all in one. The former two import that I condemn the frenzy of the Church of Rome, maintaining her Dunses and deeds against the Fathers. But the serpentes assembled in the Council of Trent, have set down that I spake of (touching the expounding of the scripture) so suttilly: that a simple man would think they allow such senses and meanings of the Scripture only, as the Fathers give all with one consent. Whereas in very truth they do nothing less: they disallow them rather. For whether by the Fathers consenting all in one, they mean the Fathers all, simply, none excepted; that consent is a Phoenix, and never will be found: or whether they mean a good number of them, as M. Hart expoundeth it▪ they dissent frō senses agreed on by that number. For example, the scripture saith, There shall be one flock, one Pastor. The Fathers, Austin, Chrysostom, Cyril, Jerome, & Gregory, expound this of Christ. The church of Rome's mouth expoundeth it of the Pope. The Council then of Trent condemning all senses and meaninges of the scripture which are against the sense that their Church holdeth, or against the Fathers consenting all in one : doth it not condemn this sense of the scripture givē by the Fathers, because it is against the sense of their Church? Sure it bindeth not the Papists to maintain it. Or else D. Stapleton (I trust) should be censured, for placing the Pope in the one Pastors seat. Wherefore if they, who hold not the senses that the Fathers give of the scriptures, be the false Church, as he teacheth us: the false Church and the Church of Rome may claim kindred. And thus much of the Doctor.

The Licentiate followeth him in the same steppes, reproving a speech of mine, touching Cyprian. Whose praise of the Romans, that unfaithfulness cannot have access to thē, being stretched by Sanders to prove that the Church of Rome cannot err : I, having shown the contrary by scripture, did add, What? and was Cyprian of another mind? Pardon me ô Cyprian: I would believe thee gladly, but that believing thee I should not believe the word of God. Hereon, M. Martin, to advantage his cause, first abuseth Cyprian, saying, that he affirmeth that the Church of Rome cannot err in faith. Which he affirmeth not. But whereas the Nouatian heretics at Carthage had made themselves there a Bishop in schism, and to get him credit with the Church of Rome had written thither falsely, that he was allowed by five & twētie Bishops: Cyprian, to meet with their falsehood and treachery, saith that it could not find credit with the Romans, who being faithful men would not give ear to faithless liars. Neither spake he this as though the Romans could not in deed be deceived by false reports of wicked ympes; (for even there he noteth they might be a while, as he did try both then and after:) but to stir them up to beware of heretics, by praising them as wary. Wherefore he affirmeth not that the Church of Rome cannot err in faith : as M. Martin threapeth on him. Yet because he might be supposed to have thought it, at least by a consequent; for if they could not err in that, much less in faith: therefore I, contenting myself with a peremptory exception against it, said, that if he thought it, he must pardon me for not believing him, the word of God gainsaying it. And this doth M. Martin reprove, both for that whereupon I spake it, and for my kind of speech. That, whereupon I spake it, is (he saith) that every youth among us, upon confidence of his spirit, will control not only one but all the Fathers consenting together, if it be against that which we imagine to be the truth. In which words, by mentioning so all the Fathers consenting together, he bewrayeth the canker that consumed him. For I touched the credit of no more of them, then the Papists grant themselves may be touched. Nor controlled I ought upon confidence of my spirit, but of the spirit of God: because it was against, not that which I imagined, but knew to be the truth. My kind of speech he noteth, for being very fine and figurative, as I thought. As I thought ? did M. Martin see my heart? If not: he might have kept that thought within himself. For in truth, (to open it, because he presseth me so far,) I thought in that figure [Paerdon me ô Cyprian] to imitate a like kind of speech in S. Austin, [Pardon me ô Paul.] What M. Martin thought, whē hereupon he matched me with vain & foolish youths : himself hath declared. But it would better have beseemed his age, to have acknowledged rather the truth which I proved, then have reproved my kind of speech. For although I be a vain and foolish youth, who spake so of Cyprian : yet S. Paul was not a vain and foolish Apostle, whose doctrine I maintained in it. These are (good Christian reader) the faults of my Conclusions: all, that are noted by Stapleton & Martin, as far as I know. If they or any other have touched ought else, which I have not lighted on: I will not be ashamed (vpō notice of it) to bring it forth myself, and answer it in judgment. For I have been so careful of true and faithful dealing, as well in the Conclusions, as in the Conference with M. Hart, God is my record: that, if mine adversaries should write a book against me, I would bear it vpō my shoulder, & bind it as a crown unto me. The bolder I am to commend them both to thy upright judgment: beseeching the Father of lights, for his mercies sake in Jesus Christ, to bless thee with the grace of his holy spirit, that thou mayest grow in knowledge, in faith, in hope, in love, and enjoy the blessings prepared for the chosen, who seek and serve him.

LONDON▪ Printed by John Wolf, for George Bishop. 1584.