The Utter Routing of the Whole Army of All the Independents and Sectaries

it is an argument sufficient to convince any rational man, that if the Presbyters would meet together for a salutation, they did much more meet for acts of government: But I say it is not only specified, that the Presbyters met together, but what they did in consultation in that their meeting, and what they acted upon deliberation, and that was to advise Paul, and to direct him what he should do, which council of theirs was not lax, but restrictive and binding, verse 23. Do therefore that which we say unto thee. By all which it is evident that they met about acts of Government, when they gave an order and rule to Paul himself, how he should behave himself at that time; and we read that Paul followed their council, and submitted himself to their order; by all which it is most apparent, that the Church of Jerusalem was ordered and governed by the joint consent and Common Council of Presbyters, though consisting of many Congregations, and was Presbyterially governed.

But I further thus argue, Where there were many Assemblies in Jerusalem, and many Presbyters, and these Assemblies were all one Church, and these Presbyters all of them Presbyters of that one Church, there of necessity there were many Congregations under one Presbytery, and that Church was presbyterially governed; but in the church of Jerusalem there were many assemblies, and many presbyters, and those Assemblies were all one Church, and those Presbyters all of them Presbyters of that one Church; Ergo, in the church of Jerusalem there were many congregations under one presbytery, and that church was presbyterially governed.

For the Major, no man of sound reason or judgment will deny it.

And for the first part of the Minor, that there were many Assemblies in that Church, it hath sufficiently been proved in the foregoing discourse, and is evident out of the 21. chapter, where it is said there were many ten thousands.

And for the other parts of it, that the Church of Jerusalem was but one Church, and that all the Presbyters there were Presbyters of that one Church, the Brethren themselves do acknowledge it; and they do also accord and grant that the Church of Jerusalem was governed by a Presbytery, and that it was Presbyterianly ruled; but withal they conceive the church of Jerusalem to consist of no more believers than might all meet together in one place and congregation; so that the difference between us and the brethren is not whether the church of Jerusalem was Presbyterianly governed or no, for that they do acknowledge, and would have their churches governed after that manner; but this is the debate between us and them, whether there were no more believers in the church of Jerusalem then could all meet in one congregation, which is their opinion; but whether or no it hath not by the foregoing discourse been sufficiently proved that there were more congregations and assemblies in the church of Jerusalem, and a greater number of believers then could all meet in any one place or congregation, and that all these were under one Presbytery: that I refer to the understanding Reader to judge of. And this shall suffice to have spoken of the third conclusion or proposition.

And now according to my promise I will faithfully set down wh • t Master Knollys and I. S. have to say to these my arguments. And in the first place I will begin with Mr Hanserdo who pag. 11. and 12. thus replieth to my first argument. The words of this Scripture Acts 11. ver. 27. (saith he) which the Doctor maketh use of to prove his assertion, are these, ver. 30. and sent it, viz. the relief to the Elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul: Here in these last words saith the Doctor, we see that the Presbyters and none but the Presbyters received the Alms, which sufficiently proveth that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in government. To the which argument of mine, Master Knollys page 11. replieth as followeth. It is not denied by the brethren (saith he) that the Presbyters in all churches were the men in the government of the Churches in which they are Elders. But this I conceive (by the Doctors favor) doth not prove it; to wit, because the alms were sent unto the Elders. Much less doth that Scripture prove that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled the Church in Jerusalem by a common Council and Presbytery. But in the 15. chap. ver. 2. 4. 6. 22. and and chap. 16. 4. and chap. 21. 17, 18. The Presbyters of Jerusalem by name (saith the Doctor) are expressed.

These are Master Knollys his own words with his reply and answer to my first argument by which I proved my third assertion, in the which I shall desire the Reader to consider, what he denieth and what he granteth. It is not denied (saith he) by the Brethren (meaning the Independents) that the Presbyters in all churches were the men in the government of the churches in which they are Elders. Take I pray his own expression. He acknowledgeth, that the government in all churches was committed to the Presbyters, and that it lay only in their hands as to whom it was solely delegated, so that he granteth as much as I contended for by that argument, by which all judicious and understanding men may now perceive that Mr Knollys and the brethren do accord unto this truth; viz. that the people have nothing to do with the government of the churches in which they are Members; so that I have as much assented unto by him and all the brethren as I desire, by the which (if I am not mistaken) he hath utterly excluded the people in all their seven new churches, and in all their new gathered assemblies of the congregational way, from any hand in the government of the churches: For (saith he) it is not denied by the brethren that the Presbyters in all churches were the men in the government of the churches in which they are Elders. So that hereafter I hope the brethren will not be so enraged against me, if I believe as the seven new Churches believe and as all the brethren of the congregational way believe those confiding men: when Master Knollys saith, that it is not denied by them that the government in all Churches is laid upon the Presbyters shoulders; and therefore not upon the people's. So that now there is little need of farther contesting between us about this business; seeing he granteth, that the Presbyters in all churches ought to have the government of them.

But it will not be amiss a little to take notice of the conscientiousness of the man's spirit who grants the thing, and yet wrangles about words, and that wretchedly and poorly; and therefore I shall desire the Reader to consider what he denieth in my argument with the reason of it: viz. these two things. First, that this doth prove it, to wit, because the alms were sent unto the Elders. Secondly, that that Scripture proveth that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled the church in Jerusalem by a common Council and Presbytery: These two things Master Knollys affirms will not insue from that portion of Scripture upon which I grounded my argument.

Now before I come to reply to both these cavils of Master Hanserdo, I shall take this liberty to say unto him that as he is a mere novice in Divinity and a foreiner to all good learning, so he is but a sucking polititian, not knowing either his Primer in that art, or his Catechism in Theology, or anything in the government either of Church or State, which is one of the grand errors and heresies of all his fraternity, who while they pretend to learning and would persuade the world they are excellent Statesmen and Grandees in Government, they will in time prove themselves (as they are indeed) a company of grolls and ninnyes; and I hope yet to see that day that they will be as much exploded & bafled out of their fond whimsies, as ever the Prelates were or any distempered Sect in the world.

But that all men may the better see the truth and discern Master Knollys his errors and the groundlessenesse of his denial of my argument, who saith, it doth not prove that the presbyters were the men in government, because the alms were sent unto the Elders; and that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled that church by a common council and presbytery, because the relief was sent unto the Presbyters.

I shall now upon this occasion speak something concerning politics, and show wherein the sovereign power and authority in all governments consists, and in whose hands it resides; and what are the essential properties or rather parts of Government in either of them: So that wheresoever they are exercised in any country or common wealth, those men only who are invested with them or to whom they are betrusted either immediately by God himself or by the election or choice of the people, the sovereign authority in those several governments lies and is deposited in their hands that manage them, and in no bodies else but such as are allowed of by their appointment or good liking and love.

And if men will then seriously consider and weigh the government secular in all States and Countries, and compare the Ecclesiastical with them; which (without any offense) they may do, the truth will more gloriously shine forth, and the strength and force of my Argument will be the more obvious to every intelligible creature.

Now all men know, that have either read or observed anything in Politicks, and the government of the world, that in whose hands soever the legislative power lieth, so that they can either make or enact new Laws and Statutes, or repeal or abrogate any old ones, and ratify both with sanctions, and who have also the power of life and death, and the authority of punishing all Prevaricators against their Laws, all men I say, know, that the sovereign power and authority resides and lies solely and only in those men's hands that exercise it: And this is the first essential part or property of sovereign and supreme authority in any state, and that declares unto all men who are the men in government there.

The second Essentiall part of sovereign power in any government, consists in this▪ that they can erect and create new Offices, and new Officers within their jurisdictions, and set up new Courts and Judges, and can confer Names, Honors, and titles of Dignity upon them severally, and invest them all with power and authority to execute their several places, Offices and Iudicatures; and this is the second essential property of supreme authority in any state, so that in whose hands soever this power resides, they only are the Rulers in that government, and no other persons.

The third Essentiall part of sovereign power in any state, is this, to make war and peace at pleasure, either foreign or domestical, upon any just occasions, and to have the managing of the Militia, &c. so that those only, in whose hands this authority lieth, they are reputed, and indeed are the supreme Rulers in that state.

The fourth Essentiall property of superlative power and authority in any government or state is this, to have a Court of ultimate resort, to the which all men may fly for relief, and to the which all Appeales, by all persons from all parts, within their jurisdictions, and from all inferior Courts are made upon any unjustice done them there, or upon any pressures or grievances by any one in authority, and in whose power it is to end and determine all controversies and differences, or to redress all abuses, and to relieve the oppressed, so that in whose hands soever this authority resides, they only are said to exercise the sovereign power, and to be the sole Governors and Moderators in that state.

The fifth and last pa • t of supreme authority in any state consists in this, that they have the power of pressing and stamping monies and coins, and setting the valution upon them, or any other monies that are currant in their countries, or have the disposing of the treasury of those states in which they live, and have the Exchequer in their hands, and all the revenues of them, and to whom all the tributes, subsidies, assessements, customs, benevolences and collections of the people that are gathered for the common relief and preservation of the whole country or state are sent, and who have the disposing of them according to their wisdom, in those men's hands I say that this power • esideth of disposing the treasury or revenues, they and they only are the supreme Magistrates and Rulers in that state, as at this day it resides with all the former essential properties in the hands of King and Parliament, that great Council of the Kingdom; by all which it sufficiently appeareth, that all sovereign power resides in them only, and is solely exercised and managed by them, so that if Master Knollys should say that it doth not prove that the government lieth now in the hands of King and Parliament that great Court, because the contributions, collections, and excises from all parts of the Kingdom are sent unto them, and are now at their disposing, I believe the great Council would teach him a little more wit, and all those his brethren that should join with him in this his argumentation a little better manners.

Now if we will compare things together, we shall find, that whatsoever can prove the sovereign power in all secular governments to be in those men's hands which exercise it; the same may be said concerning the Ecclesiastical Government in the Church at Jerusalem, and of the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church, who were the chief Officers, and men in authority in it, that the government and sovereign power in that Church lay in their hands only. So that it will then undeniably follow, that my argument will forever stand good against Master Knolly 's fond cavils for the proving of these two truths, viz. that the Presbyters in the Church at Jerusalem, and in all other churches were the only Governors in those churches, and that from this reason, because the alms were sent unto them, and because they had the disposing of the treasury of the Church: This I say, will in the first place necessarily follow. The second truth, that will result out of the words, is this, that the Apostles and Presbyters governed and ruled that Church by a common-council and Presbyterie, both which Master Knollys vainly denieth, will follow from my Argument.

But for the farther elucidation of this truth, and that it may the better appear unto all men, I will briefly run over the essential properties, and parts of supreme and sovereign power that were exercised in that church, and show that they resided only and solely in the Apostles and Presbyters hands, who were the Governors of that church, and that the people had nothing to do with them; and for the first, to wit, the legislative power it was in the church of Jerusalem, and committed only into the hands of the Apostles and Presbytery of that church, as who had received the Keys, Matth. 16. and Matth. 18. For so saith the Prophet, Isaiah chapter the 2. verse 2. out of Zion shall go forth the Law; and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem; and Acts the 1. verse. 2. 3. it is said that Christ, for the time that he remained upon the earth after his Resurrection, through the Holy Ghost gave commandments unto the Apostles whom he had chosen, speaking to them of the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God, and commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which was that he would send them the Holy Ghost the comforter which should teach them all things, and bring all things unto their remembrance whatsoever Christ had said unto them, and that he should abide with them forever, John 14. verse 26. and lead them into all truth, and in the fifteenth Chapter he calls his Apostles his friends, telling them that he had made known unto them all things that he had heard from his Father, verse 15. and he promised, that the Holy Ghost should bring all those things to their memories, and in the same Chapter in the 26. verse Christ saith, when the comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father he shall testify of me. From all which places, and from the 28. of Matth. verse 18, 19, 20. Mark. the 16. verse 15, 16, 17, 18. and John the 20. verse 21, 22, 23. and many more that might be alleged, it is apparently evident that the Apostles and Presbyters in the Church of Jerusalem were invested with a legislative power, so that whatsoever they preached or writ that we find recorded in the Holy Word of God, they are all the Statutes and Laws of the King of his Church Christ Jesus, and by the which all Christ's subjects to the end of the world are to be regulated and governed. The Apostles and Presbyters in the Church of Jerusalem had power also to abrogate old Laws, and to enact and establish new ones, as we may see Act. 15. and Act. 16. yea, they had power of life and death, of which we have one example in Ananias and Sapphira, Act. 5. yea, they raised the dead, cured the lame, and healed the sick with their very shadows, and all this power was given unto them for the ratifying of their authority, and to show they were sent of God; withal they had the power of erecting new offices and creating new Officers, not only in Jerusalem, but in all the Churches, as that office of Deacons in the sixth of the Acts, and the office of Elders or Presbyters in the 14. chapter, where it is said that Paul and Barnabas ordained them Presbyters in every Church, and therefore they appointed them first in the Mother-church Jerusalem, for out of Zion, (saith the Prophet) shall go forth the Law and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem; yea, they gave those Officers their names, and invested them all with power to execute their several Offices, as is manifest, Acts the 6. and in the 20. of the same book, and in the Epistles of Paul to Timothy, and Titus. They also had the power of making war and peace with the Nations, and all the Inhabitants of the earth; for they preached and published the glad tidings of peace to all such as received the Gospel, and denounced war and death with all manner of judgments to those that obeyed not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 Thess. 1. verse 8. and to the Apostles and Presbyters in Jerusalem likewise, as to their ultimate and extreme refuge, and relief and help, all appeals were made (as we may see in the fifteenth of the Acts, and in the 6. and in the 9. and in the 15. of the same book) as to the supreme Tribunal upon earth in God's matters, in whose hands all the highest power and sovereign authority for Ecclesiastical matters then resided, and whose place it was not only to hear the controversies and differences of greatest concernment in Christ's Kingdom his Church, but also to decide and determine them, and put a final period unto them, the which example of theirs was left as a presi • ent of imitation to all succeeding ages for Ministers to do the like upon the like occasions, as in that controversy that arose among the Christians at Antioch through false Teachers, by whom that heresy was broached, viz. that it was necessary to salvation that the ceremonial Law should be observed, and that Believers could not be saved without it, by which great scandal was given to the weak Jews, who by this means were alienated from the believing Gentiles, because they did neglect those Ceremonies, whereupon there arose a great schism and rent amongst the brethren to the disturbance of the Church of God.

Now for the deciding and determining of this controversy, the Christians of Antioch appeal to the Apostles and Presbyters at Jerusalem, as knowing that all power was given unto them both Dogmatical, Diatacticall and Criticall, yea, authoritative and commanding, who entering into a Council and Synod, and there debating the business, by Reason, Arguments and Disputation, and finding by disquisition of the whole matter, what was the good will and pleasure of God, what he had revealed concerning the Gentiles, and the New Covenant under the Gospel, they determined the whole matter according to the written Word of God, not pretending any new Revelation or new light or any extraordinary or superlative assistance in the deciding that debate, but only exercised that ordinary sovereign power in the church of God, which God had invested them with, and given unto them in his holy Word the rule and square of all Doctrines, and not only unto them, but to all his faithful Ministers his servants to the end of the world; and in the deciding of this controversy, they first shown and put forth their dogmatical power confuting and convincing the heresy, and vindicating the truth.

Secondly, they declared their diatacticall authority, making a practical Canon or Law for avoiding of scandal, and abstaining from such things as gave occasion of it.

Thirdly, they exercised their critical power and judiciary authority, verse 24. condemning and branding those Teachers with that infamous and black mark of Liars, subverters of souls and troublers of the Church.

Fourth. and lastly, they sufficiently manifested their imparative and authoritative power in sending those Decrees unto the Churches of the Gentiles with do this and live, v. 29. for so much the words imports, all which are acts of sovereign power and authority in all governments whatsoever, as the learned know which when they resided in the Apostles and Presbyters of the Church at Jerusalem, and were exercised by them there; it is sufficiently manifest that all the power of government likewise remained, and resided wholly and solely in the Apostles and Presbyters hands, and that they exercised it by joint consent, and the Common-council of them all, for all acts of government ever run in the name of all the Apostles, or in the name of the Apostles and Presbyters.

Lastly, they had the disposing of the treasury of that Church in their hands, as all the Presbyters of all the other Churches had, for they brought the monies always to the Apostles, and laid them down at their feet, as it appeareth, Act. 4. and afterwards all the monies and alms were sent to the Presbyters through all Churches, as in whose hands the sovereign authority lay, which they never gave out of their hands or relinquished, but upon all occasions gave directions to their several Deacons how to distribute them for the good of the church, and for the common emolument of the poor Saints: for otherwise to what end should the alms and benevolences of the Gentiles be sent unto the Presbyters in the churches in Judea, if they had not been the men in authority in those churches, and to whom the government of them belonged, and who only and wholly had the disposing of them. Now then when the contribution and relief was sent unto the Presbyters of the church in Jerusalem as well as the other churches; it followeth that they and they only had the power and authority in that church which they ever exercised by the joint consent and common council and agreement of them all, for it was sent unto all the Presbyters in every church, and therefore they were in common to dispose of them. Now before this relief was sent thither, and long after that, as the story of the Acts declareth, most of the Apostles resided there, and all the Apostles were Presbyters (as the Independents themselves do acknowledge) and the same Scripture that relateth that the alms and relief were sent speaking in the plural number, saith, they were sent unto the Presbyters, now they were all Presbyters, and therefore they were sent unto them in common; and if we observe the Dialect of holy, writ through the whole story of the Acts, we shall find for the most part, if there be any mention made of any act of government, that either all the Apostles, or some more of them are ever made mention of to be the chief Moderators and prime Agents in the business, which was never carried by any one of them, or by the multitude or people; and it it is credibly believed that most of the Apostles resided in Jerusalem or in Judea till after the Council and Synod at Jerusalem, Act. 15. and for the Apostle Saint James, it is the opinion of most of the Ecclesiastical Writers, that he continued President of the Presbytery in Jerusalem his whole life time, as he was President in that Council in the 15. of the Acts, and it stands with very good reason; for many years after he continued still the prime man in authority there amongst the Presbyters, and knew very well the condition of all the Believers there, and what numbers and multitudes of Disciples there were Inhabitants in that Church, all which sufficiently demonstrateth that he had his residence continually, or for the most part in Jerusalem, so that Paul coming thither to the Feast, as it is related, Acts the 21 chapter, was informed by him, not only that there were many ten thousands of Believers in that Church, but what those Disciples had heard concerning his preaching, which showeth not only that Saint James had his abode in that City, but that those believers likewise were dwellers and inhabitants there, and that now he had very good acquaintance and familiarity with them; yea, which is more, at that very time that Paul and Barnabas were sent to Jerusalem with those alms, Peter and James were then in that City, if not other of the Apostles also, as the twelfe chapter of the Acts abundantly showeth; and without doubt they all joined with the Presbyters, and in a Common-council ordered how the Alms should be disposed of by the Deacons to the necessity of the Saints; yea, it doth most necessarily follow (what so ever Mr. Knollys, and those of his Fraternity shall be able to say to the contrary) for the Scripture recordeth, that the relief was sent to the Presbyters through Judea, & Jerusalem was the Metropolis city in Judea, and in the 12. chapter, v. 25. it is related, that Barnabas & Paul returned from Jerusalem whither they had carried the alms, so that many of the Apostles being at that time in Jerusalem, and the princiall and chief Presbyters in that Church amongst the other Presbyters, it may not be credited that they I say being the prime Magistrates and Governors did sit still and leave the rule, ordering, and government of that Church to other of their fellow Presbyters, and them of inferior rank, but they also acted their parts in the government at that time, as well as at others, and therefore I say when the disposing of the treasury of the Church or State, is an Act of sovereign power, and belongs only to those that are in authority in either, and when all the Apostles and Presbyters governed that Church by a Common-council and joint consent, and when the alms were sent unto all, it necessarily followeth, notwithstanding all Master Knollys his garrulity, that my Argument out of that Scripture will ever stand good to prove that the sending of the relief to the Elders, makes good these two things; the first, that the Presbyters were the only men in authority there: and secondly, that the Apostles and Presbyters of that Church governed and ruled it by a Common-council and Presbytery: yea, Master Knollys his own words confirms me in my opinion, who saith, it is not denied by the brethren, that the Presbyters in all Churches were the men in the government of the Churches in which they are Elders; so that all businesses of public concernment, were to be transacted and managed by the common consent and agreement of them all, and not by the determination of any one particular Presbyter in either of those Churches; much less by any other persons or people in them but the Presbyters.

And this shall suffice to have spake concerning the confirmation of my first Argument grounded upon that Scripture, that the relief and alms were sent unto the Presbyters of Jerusalem.

And now I come to what he hath to say against my second argument by which I proved my third proposition, which is this, as he himself set it down in the 12. Page of his book. They that in the holy Scripture are called Presbyters, and acted and ordered things in a joint body and common Council with the Presbyters, and exercised that ordinary power committed to them in the 18. of Matthew they acted as Presbyters: But the Apostles in governing the Church of Jerusalem consisting of many Congregations and Assemblies, acted and ordered things in a joint body and common Council with the Presbytery of that Church as Presbyters. Ergo: the church of Jerusalem was Presbyterially governed, and by a common Council of Presbyters. The Major and Minor of this Syllogism being proved (saith the Doctor) the conclusion will necessarily insue.

Thus Master Knollys relates this Argument, wholly passing by all the rest.

And to this argument he first thus replies. I know not (saith he) that the brethren ever deny ed that the Church of Jerusalem was presbyterianly governed. So that he assenteth unto the conclusion, which is all I contended for by that argument; So that by this it followeth that the people had no hand in the government for they are not Presbyters by office. And yet such is his ambition to be thought somebody in the art of disputation, that he quarrels the form of my Syllogism, and takes upon him to show me how I should have framed it aright; but all those that know indeed what really belongs to learning will easily perceive the man doth but babble, and if I should spend time in trifling with him about forms, moodes, and figures in Syllogisms, who knows no more in Logic then the horse he preaches on, I might be thought as vain as himself; therefore entreating him hereafter to learn his Grand-dame to suck and not me to make Syllogisms, passing by all those his grolleries I will set down what he hath farther to reply to this argument in the 13. page, and then answer to that, and after I have done with him, I will come to I. S. that learned Gentleman and profound Clerk. Master Knollys to this argument thus farther answereth, Though the Apostles (saith he) were called Presbyters in the Scripture, yet it followeth not, that they acted as Presbyters, but as Apostles, Act. 15. And they cannot therein be a pattern and president for Presbyters; First, because the Apostles had the care and charge of and over all Churches 2 Cor. 11. 28. But the Presbyters had the care and oversight of someone Church only as Ephesus Act. 20. 28. or Philippi Phil. 1. 1. and this the Doctor often inserts in his book. That all the Churches we read of in the New Testament (though they were presbyterially governed) were Dependent upon their several Presbyters page 12. And secondly, because this would make the Presbyters Independent indeed; for so the Apostles were in the government of all the Churches; the Presbyters of Jerusalem, of Ephesus, and of all the Churches were Dependent upon the Apostles, and the Apostles only Dependent on Christ; by whose holy spirit they were always guided in the government of their churches, and therefore they said Acts 15. 28. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and us. And though the Doctor say the Presbyters might say so, as well as the Apostles because the Elders and Presbyters are mentioned there. The Doctor might have also considered that the brethren, even the whole Church, the multitude (how many soever the Doctor can make of them) were present as well as the Presbyters Acts 15. 4. 12. 22. 23, 25, 27, 28. and so have made the brethren, the multitude, even the whole Church Independent also; and the Doctor might as well have affirmed, that the brethren even the whole Church might say, it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us.

Thus Master Knollys pleaseth his own humor in heaping up a senseless and confused multitude of words and that only to delude the people.

But should I make a full discovery of all the errors of this his babble and nonsense and give a full answer to them, truly I might make a very large discourse, I will therefore study brevity and answer him in a few words, though I will omit nothing worthy to be taken notice of. But by the way I may say thus much that this his answer is nothing to the purpose and his reasons are as vain, frivolous and fond as by the sequel will appear.

But whereas he denieth, that the Apostles though they be called Presbyters acted as Presbyters and that they cannot therein be a pattern and president for Presbyters, it is a mere begging the question and a fond trifling in a serious and weighty matter, when it was sufficiently proved and that out of the holy Scripture that the blessed Apostles were not only called Presbyters but that they were Presbyters really as well as virtually (which the Independents themselves deny not) and that they acted also as Presbyters at Jerusalem, that is, as ordinary rulers and officers in all acts of government, as also in that Council in the 15. of the Acts; for otherwise their example could not indeed have been a pattern of government to all Ministers and Presbytes in all succeeding ages, if in either of them they had acted as extraordinary men, by a transcendent and superlative power and by an inimitable authority and as men immediately assisted by the holy Ghost as when they wrought Miracles and when they writ the holy Scripture.

Now that the Apostles in all those acts of government were and are to be a pattern to all Ministers in the ages to come, all the learnedst of the Independent tribe and all their brethren of New England do acknowledge it, and take the ordination of Deacons and Elders in their new Churches from the example of the Apostles in the sixth of the Acts and the fourteenth chapter of the same book, and they acknowledge and accord that Synods and Councils in like manner are one of God's Ordinances and ground it upon the Apostles and Presbyters meeting in the 15. of the Acts, and take their example for a pattern and president of gathering into Synods and Councils upon the like occasions, all which they could not do if the Apostles in all those acts of Government had acted and managed them only as Apostles and in an extraordinary way with a transcendent and infallible authority and by a special dispensation from heaven and as only peculiar unto themselves as miraculous and extraordinary governors. So that whiles Master Knollys fights against the truth and against me, he with the same weapon wounds his own cause and overthrows the Independents doctrine, who from the examples of the Apostles though extraordinary men take their ordination of Deacons and Elders and of calling Synods. And therefore in the first place this may serve for the discovering of his ignorance and futility.

As for his reasons of his denial that the Apostles cannot be a pattern and president for Presbyters, because the Apostles (as he saith) had the care of all churches, and the Presbyters were limited and confined to their particular charges, they are foolish and vain, and make nothing for the enervating or weakening of my argument: for it doth not follow as the learned well know, that because the Apostles in some respects were extraordinary men and rulers, therefore in all acts of Government they did nothing ordinary or for the imitation of other Church governors; I say this can never follow with any good reason, neither will any judicious man thus argue because the Apostles were extraordinary men and officers, therefore they did not the acts of ordinary governors; whereas when they assembled themselves about the affairs of the Church and for the good of it, it was for this very end and purpose that they might leave an example and president to the ages to come and to all Ministers that should succeed them of doing the like; and therefore we are ever to consider the Apostles in all acts of government to have acted as ordinary governors and rulers, and for a president and pattern to all Ministers to the end of the world.

But whereas Master Knollys grollishly saith, that the Apostles were Independent in the Government of all the Churches, and that the Presbyters of Jerusalem and Ephesus and all the Churches were Dependent upon the Apostles, and the Apostles only Dependent upon Christ by whose spirit they were always guided in the government of their Churches, and therefore they said Acts 15. 28. It seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us. In every sentence, I might say word, there is an error.

For first, the Apostles were not Independent at all no more then the Presbyters, but they were ever tied unto the word of God and his revealed will and that by Christ himself who said John 5. search the Scriptures; and Luke 14. They have Moses and the Prophets, let them hear them; Yea Saint Peter 2 Epist. chap. 1. v. 19. teacheth us, That we have a more sure word of prophecy whereunto we do well to take heed, &c. So that the Apostles themselves were tied to the Scriptures. And Paul the great Apostle of the Gentiles in the 24. of the Acts and in many other places makes the Law and the Prophets the rule of his faith, professing that he believed all things according to them. So that when Peter swerved from that rule & began amongst the Galatians to halt & temporize Paul resisted him to his face and accused him openly of prevarication: Nay which is more so far they were from being independents that they were always to follow the guidance of the spirit; they were not to move but as he directed Act. 16. Yea the Apostles themselves were subject to the Presbytery at Jerusalem and were to give an account of their actions to them at any time, as we may see Acts 11. where Peter was questioned, and was forced to give in his answer for satisfaction; the other Apostles also were subject unto that Presbyterie, and gave an account how they had spent their time amongst the Gentiles; yea, Paul himself received orders from the Presbyterie in Jerusalem, Acts 21. and was ruled by them: yea, they were not only subject to the Church in Jerusalem, but to all other Churches also, and were sent on their message at any time. For Peter and John were sent to Samaria by the Apostles, Act. the 8. and Paul and Barnabas were sent from Antioch by that Church there to Jerusalem, and from Jerusalem they were sent again to Antioch, Syria, & Galatia, so that they were as much dependent as any other Ministers of the Gospel; and therefore M. Knollys is altogether in error in asserting that the Apostles were independent; neither is that true also that the presbyters were dependent upon the Apostles any farther then they commanded in the Lord; for there was a special caution & caveat made to the contrary, not only by Christ himself, who said to all his Followers and Disciples beware of false Prophets and false Christ's, but also by the Apostles themselves, and that in the Synod at Jerusalem, Acts the 15. who bad all the Gentiles beware and take heed that they listened not to any as coming from them, unless they taught according to the word of God and their decrees; yea, Saint Paul in his Epistle to the Galatians, Gal, 1. verse 7, 8. gives them and all Christians a special charge, that if he himself or any of the Apostles, or an Angel from heaven should teach otherwise then he had taught them, that they should account him accursed, and the same doctrine he delivereth to the Corinthians, 2 Cor. 10. and 11. charging them to take heed of falls Apostles, although they transformed themselves into the Ministers of Righteousness, and enjoins Timothy and Titus to do the same, and in them warns all Christians to beware of false Teachers, though they come in the name of Apostles, if they bring not the doctrine of Christ, and teach not according to sound words; and the same doth Saint Peter in his Epistles, and Saint John in all his Epistles, and commandeth them withal that they should not receive them into their houses, nor bid them God speed; and the same doth Saint Jude in his, and the Church of Ephesus, Revel. the 2. verse 2. is commended for discovering and casting out the false Apostles, by all which and many more proofs and reasons that might be alleged, it is apparently evident, that the Presbyters did not depend upon the Apostles themselves, but upon Christ whose Ministers and Angels they were, and the stars in his right hand, Apocalyp. the 2. verse 1. who had their authority and Commission as well from Christ as the Apostles themselves had theirs, and who preserved and protected them as well as he did the Apostles, bidding them not to be afraid what man could do against them, as the second and third chapters of the Revelations sufficiently declare: and therefore they were all dependent upon Christ, and not upon the Apostles (as Master Knollys fondly saith) who were their fellow servants, though in a higher degree and order; and if we duly consider the transaction of all the business in the Synod at Jerusalem, Acts 15. the Presbyters were as much guided by the spirit in that Council as the Apostles themselves, as I said in my Argument, and shall by and by, by God's assistance more abundantly prove, that all the world may see the vanity of Master Knollys, who thinks all men should take for an Oracle every word that falls from his pen, though it be never so erroneous and never so liable to exception and just control as that other of his expressions is, where he saith that the Apostles were always guided by the spirit in the Government of their Churches; in the which words there is a twofold error; for Peter was not guided by the spirit, neither when Christ called him Satan, neither when he denied his Master, nor when he temporized amongst the Galatians; besides the Churches were not the Apostles Churches, as he erroneously and ignorantly speaketh, but they were Christ's golden Candlesticks Revel. 1. ver. 20. who walked amongst them: And the Apostles profess 2 Cor. 4. ver. 5. that they preached not themselves, but Jesus Christ the Lord and themselves the servants of the Church for Jesus his sake, and in the first of the Corinthians chap. 3. ver. 21▪ 22, 23. Therefore let no man glory in men (saith the Apostle) for all things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollo or Cephas, or the World, or Life, or Death, or things present, or things to come, all are yours, and ye are Christ's, and Christ is God's. If the Churches therefore be Christ's golden Candlesticks, and his Churches and his houses, as Paul in the 1 of Timothy averreth ch. 3. ver. 14, 15. where he saith, These things I write unto thee, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth: if therefore, I say, Churches be the houses of God and the Churches of the living God, and the golden Candlesticks of Jesus Christ, and he be the Lord of them, and there be also a special prohibition given by Christ himself to all his Apostles and to all ministers that they should not Lord it over his people as the Princes of the Gentiles did over them that were their subjects; how then can Mr Knollys say that the Churches were the Apostles Churches? Every man I conceive that hath any ordinary understanding, that with deliberation shall read Mr Knollys scriblings, will conclude of him, That he is altogether ignorant in sacred things, and if he had not been a frontlesse man and without all shame, he would never have published so many errors and so much ignorance as he hath done to the view of the world, neither would he ever have said that though the Apostles were called Presbyters in the Scripture, yet they acted not as Presbyters, especially when it was proved unto him and all those of his fraternity in my first book that they acted in all acts of Government and in that Synod at Jerusalem Acts 15. as ordinary Presbyters. But because Mr Knollys is not yet satisfied about that point nor perhaps never will be, for the more ample satisfaction if not to him, at least to others, I will here prove that point a little more fully; viz. that the Apostles acted as Presbyters in an ordinary way as the other did, and after I have done that, I will briefly also answer Mr Knollys his grolleries concerning the fufferage and votes of the Church and people in that Synod in Jerusalem.

But first I will prove, that the Apostles in the debate and controversy in the Synod and in that whole business did not act as Apostles with a transcendent and infallible authority, but as Presbyters in such a way as makes their meeting a president and pattern to ordinary Councils and Synods.

For first Paul an Apostle and Barnabas, though both extraordinary men and endued with an infallible spirit, yet were at that time sent to Jerusalem by the Church of Antioch ver. 2. as servants of that Presbytery, who willingly and in obedience to the order of that Church subjected themselves to their determination, which they would not have done had they acted as Apostles and not as Members (for that present) of the Presbytery of Antioch; now all men know that they that are sent as Messengers by command and appointment, as they were, were not greater then those that sent them, which is one of the reasons all orthodox Divines use against Peters Supremacy, in that the Apostles which were in Jerusalem (Acts 8. 14.) sent him and John to Samaria, and therefore they conclude that the College of Apostles had authority over him and that they were not subject to him: And the same may be concluded concerning Paul and Barnabas that they were subject to the command of the Church: And it is yet more evident out of the second verse of the 15, chapter of the Acts, Where it is said, that when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention & disputation with them, that then they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem unto the Apostles and Elders about this question, out of the which words everyone may observe these conclusions following: First, that Paul and Barnabas used not any transcendent extraordinary and Apostolical authority in that Church▪ neither did they challenge unto themselves an infallible authority for the deciding of that difference, which they might have done if they had then and there acted as Apostles and put forth their Apostolical power; yea which is more, it is in terminis said, that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention and disputation with them, intimating by those words that they argued and debated the matter by Reasons and Arguments, as the other ordinary Presbyters of that Church did, which they would never have suffered if they had acted there as Apostles and with an infallible authority; and this is the first conclusion may be gathered out of those words to prove that Paul & Barnabas acted there as ordinary Presbyters, and were not only at that time subject to that Church, but Members of the same.

The second conclusion that may be gathered out of those words is this, That they were sent as the other ordinary officers, and the same commands laid upon them that were laid upon the other: Now if they of Antioch had looked upon Paul and Barnabas as extraordinary Messengers endued with Apostolical authority, they would have made some difference between them and the certain others spake of in that place; but sending them all with equal authority and with one and the same Message and making no distinction between them, it sufficiently proveth that they of Antioch in this employment looked upon them but as ordinary Presbyters.

The third thing observable is this, that Paul and Barnabas with those certain others were sent as well to the Elders or Presbyters at Jerusalem about the question, as to the Apostles, for so runs the text, they were all sent unto as having equal authority and as the ordinary Governors and Counselors of the Church and as to such as sat by one and the same Commission, Writ, or Charter, and governed with a joint consent and by a Common Council and Agreement: And therefore they are all to be considered as ordinary Presbyters in that Council and Synod; and all this I say may be gathered out of that text.

But there are many other Arguments to prove it, because the Presbyters all of them and that all along through the whole debate acted as authoritatively as the Apostles: For as the Presbyters were sent unto as well as the Apostles and assembled themselves accordingly v. 6. So they did decree and write the Epistle as well as the Apostles ver. 22. 23. and Act. 16. 4. they are called also the decrees of the Apostles and Elders, and Act. 21. the Presbyters say, We have written and concluded, manifesting unto all the World that they in that Synod sat and acted by the same authority and were assisted and guided by the same spirit the Apostles were as sitting by the same Commission or Writ: And therefore when the holy Ghost makes no difference between them in respect of their authority, but only in regard of their names, it is a very great rashness in Mr Knollys and those of his fraternity to say that the Apostles acted not as Presbyters, which is indeed to confute the Scripture and all this to delude the poor people.

Many Arguments more might be produced to prove that the Apostles acted as Presbyters, and were no more then guided by an Apostolical and infallible spirit then the other Presbyters; but for brevity sake I shall only name one more, which is this, in that they stated the question, and debated it from the holy Scripture in the ordinary way disputing Con and Pro, arguing and reasoning what they should write, and what they should judge of that business, as it is apparent in the 7. verse, and many more places in that Chapter, by their deliberate suffrages and discourses in that Council, and having by searching the Scripture (saith the Holy Ghost) found what was the good and acceptable will of God, thereupon they say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us; as any Synod or Council of Divines upon the like assurance of Scripture warrant may do.

Now I affirm, had the Apostles at that time acted by an apostolical and infallible Spirit, a when they writ the holy Scripture, and not as Presbyters, they would never have admitted any disputation, nor entered into a serious debate and consultation what they should write and judge of that matter, but would speedily have dispatched the business, and by their Apostolical authority, and that infallible Spirit they were led with, they would have decided the matter, and either have said, thus saith the Lord as the Prophets of old did, or take notice that what we write are the commands of the Lord, dictated unto us by the Spirit of God, and would never have gone to consult with others about it, or debated the matter by Arguments and reasons; which when they did, it is a sufficient Argument to prove that the Apostles acted as Presbyters in that Council; and therefore from all that I have now said it is apparently evident that all the Apostles at Jerusalem acted as Presbyters, and that the other Presbyters had equal authority and power with them, notwithstanding all Master Knollys his bable. And this shall suffice to have spake by way of answer to that part of his fond cavil: and now I come to reply to his Grolleries concerning the votes and suffrage of the people in the Church at Jerusalem whom Master Knollys joineth with the Apostles and Elders, and makes them equal with the Elders in authority, misconceiving what is meant by brethren there; his words are these, page 13. The Doctor (saith he) might have also considered that the Brethren, even the whole Church, the multitude (how many soever the Doctor can make of them) were present as well as the Presbyters, Act. 15. 4. 12. 22, 23. 25. 27, 28. and so have made the Brethren the multitude, even the whole Church independent also; and the Doctor might as well have affirmed, that the Brethren, even the whole Church might say it seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us. Thus Master Knollys disputeth not only against all sound Divinity, but against all reason, whiles he would make all the people to have equal suffrage and voices or votes with the Elders in that Council; and therefore Master Knollys shall never be my Master, who had he known anything concerning governments, either in Church or State, or had he ever read anything concerning Councils in either, he would never have so argued: For Councils in all governments consist of peculiar and select men, who for their Gravity, Wisdom, Learning, and their inveterate experience are made choice of, and set apart for that purpose, and to whom the rule and government of the Kingdoms and Countries wherein they live is committed: so that the ordinary people are not to intrude or intermeddle in those affairs whose place it is only to obey and to yield subjection to their Ordinances, and they that would go about or endeavor to change this order appointed by God himself, would speedily bring confusion upon themselves and others; and as it is and ever has been in the matters and affairs of the State, and in the Kingdoms of this world; so it is in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ which is his Church, all things are to be managed with order and decency, and by such men only as upon whose shoulders God hath laid that government, and into whose hands he hath committed the Keys those ensigns of authority; now when Christ the King of his Church hath given the Keys to his Apostles, and to the Presbyters only, and to be continued in their hands to the end of the world, they only are to manage the affairs & government of the Church to the consummation of all things, whose calling and place it is to rule and govern them, as who have the care of the churches, who are the prime men in authority in them, for the ruling and governing of them, and the people are only to obey them, and their Ordinances in the Lord, and are not to intermeddle in the government of the Church, or have their voices or votes in matters of government, as hath been often proved. And therefore Master Knollys in saying, That the Brethren, even the whole Church, the multitude (how many soever the Doctor can make of them) were present as well as the Presbyters, and had their voices there, is altogether mistaken in his commentary exposition: for he by Brethren, understanding that the whole Church, the whole multitude of Believert, men, women and children then in Jerusalem (for so his words do import) were present in that Council, speaks he knows not what; for it is most certain by the holy Scripture, that the tenth part of the Believers that were in Jerusalem could not have met together in any one place, and therefore all the many ten thousands that were there could not possibly have come together in one Synod or Council; and besides the impossibility of it, all men know, that the Members of Synods, and such as have their voices there, are Presbyters and Ministers of the Gospel only, and such as are sent Commissioners, and delegated out of the several Presbyteries to those Councils for the right ordering and well managing of the government in them; and this is their calling; and for the other people as the secular Magistrates, Masters of Families, Wives, Children and Servants, they are everyone of them to continue in that calling and statiou God had placed them in, 1 Cor. 7. and all under authority, are therein to abide, and everyone of them to follow their particular negotiations and affairs, yielding obedience in their several places to those that are over them; and women especially by a statute Law from heaven, 1 Cor. 14. are enjoined silence in all the Churches, and are commanded if they have any doubts, to ask their Husbands at home, and to be subject and obedient unto them, they are not to vote it in Synods, neither were women ever that I have read or heard of, before such Teachers as Master Knollys, and his Fraternity appeared in the world, permitted to have their voices in the Churches and Synods, which when it is an apparent transgression of the Law of God, I am confident that the Apostles and Presbyters then assembled in the Council of Jerusalem would not have suffered any women to have brake the Laws of God before their faces; and therefore I may with good authority out of God's Word conclude, that there was not a woman in that Synod; for the Scripture saith, the Synod consisted of brethren, and not sisters who had never the Keys committed to them, or any voice there, as Mr Knollys vainly asser • eth, and therefore for women they were not there; so that there was not the whole multitude, how many soever the Doctor can make them, when the sisters are exempted, there being none but brethren. Besides it was against another statute law from heaven made by the Apostle Paul in the 14. of the Romans ver. 1. that weak brethren should be admitted to doubtful disputations, who saith▪ For those that are weak in the Faith, receive, but not unto doubtful disputations or ambiguity of disputes, for they being not well settled and grounded in Religion, would have either been more imbittered against one another or filled more full of scruples, then resolved, as daily experience teacheth all men, who see what a confusion such paltry fellows as Master Knollys is, have already brought in • o the world by admitting their weak brethren to their doubtful disputations and vain janglings u • on all occasions. Neither will I ever believe for my part, that the Apostles • old be transgressors of their own Laws, and teach one thing and practice the contrary; now when Saint Paul had made that law, that the weak brethren should not be admitted to doubtful disputations, shall we think that the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem would have admitted the whole multitude of all the believers amongst the which there were so many weak brethren, into the Syno • to those disputes▪ and so have violated this law and statute from heaven? especially can any rational man believe this when they were not at that time so well acquainted with their Christian liberty? For this would have tended to nothing but a confusion of all things, & would have put the people in an u • roar, as is evident from very good reason; for if many years after the preaching of the Gospel and the free grace of God and the teaching of them their Christian liberty, they remained still so zealous for the observation of the ceremonial law of Moses, as we may read in the 21. chapter of the Acts, that they out of a distempered zeal would have destroyed Paul, and only because they heard that h • taught the Gentiles not to observe the law of Moses; how would all those weak brethren have been enraged against all the Apostles and Presbyters (may any man suppose) if they had been admi • ted into that Synod and should then and there have heard them dispute against the ceremonial law, condemning it as a burden too heavy for them, and to be such as neither they nor their fathers could bear; and therefore decreed, that it should not be imposed upon the believing Gentiles? I say it stands with all good reason if the weak believers in Jerusalem which were many ten thousands should have heard these disputes, it would have put them all in such a heat and rage, as they would have set the whole City in an uproar, to the hazarding of the lives of both the Apostles and Presbyters there, and all such as should have sided with them, and so much the more it would have incensed them against the Apostles and Presbyters, because they granted greater Privileges to the Gentiles, and gave them an immunity from the observation of the Ceremonial Law, which the Jews still observed and strictly kept, so that many of the Jews going from Judea wheresoever they came urged the observation of the ceremonial Law amongst the Gentiles also, as necessary to salvation: now I say if these Zealots of the Law had all both men and women how many soever can be made of them (to use Master Knollys expression) been present, as he groundlessely affirms, and should have heard these disputes, they would have been so far from voting with the Apostles and Elders, and saying it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and us, as they would have voted the contrary; and for this that I say it is evident from the Holy Scripture; for in the one and twentieth chapter of the Acts it is said, that they would have stain Paul, for this their jealousy only, that he preached and taught the Gentiles against the Ceremonial Law, which they would never have been offended with him for, if the Brethren in Jerusalem those believing Jews, the multitude, even the whole Church, how many soever the Doctor can make of them (as master Knollys saith) had then had their voice in the Council and Synod at Jerusalem, and had assented and voted against the ceremonial Law, and for the abrogation of it, as Master Knollys against all reason saith they did, for then they would never have been displeased with Paul for instructing the Gentiles, and all people in their Christian liberty, and for teaching them that they were freed from the Ceremonial Law, for that Council and Synod made those Decrees for the benefit of the Gentiles: but they would rather have been offended with Paul, if they had heard that he yet urged the observation of it amongst the Gentiles, if they with the Apostles and Presbyters had 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 with one unanimous consent and agreement had, by searching the holy Scripture, found out what was the good and acceptable will of God, and from thence had decreed the abolishing of the Ceremonial Law, I say, if all the believers in Jerusalem, the whole Church and multitude as many as can be made of them, as Master Knollys affirms, had been present in the Synod with the Apostles and Presbyters and should have voted with them it seemed good to the holy Ghost and to us, to abrogate the Ceremonial Law, and to free the Gentiles from it: they could not then have been displeased with Saint Paul for observing their Order and Decrees, and for obeying their injunctions: but when they were displeased with him, for but hearing he taught the Gentiles against the Law of Moses and the Temple, it is apparently evident, that by brethren spake of in the text, & by the whole church & the multitude, cannot be understood all the believers in Jerusalem, how many so ever could be made of them, as he grollishly asserteth, could they have all possibly met together in one place: for then they themselves should be transgressors of their own Decrees and be offended with others for observing what they themselves had commanded, which is a sin; and therefore by brethren there.

First, all sisters are excluded; for they are not numbered amongst them, and so then not all the believers, for sisters also are believers and of the multitude: and,

Secondly, all those zealots spake of in the 21 chapter, had no vote in that Synod, and were not present there; for they were enemies to Saint Paul for Preaching according to those Decrees made and Voted there; so that Mr Knollys in time may come to see his Error, and by brethren there, and the multitude, and the whole Church, may very well understand that they were such as Judas and Silas were: viz. Prophets and chosen men, and assistants to the Apostles, members of the Church in Jerusalem, of which they had store, for many of the Priests were converted and were members there, though not fixed Officers and Presbyters, and Elders, as the other were who Synecdochically were called the Church, a part being understood for the whole, which is usual in the holy Scripture: and to these may be added all the Presbyters that came out of all the Churches of Judea, from among whom those false teachers were gone, and had taught among the Gentiles the observation of the Ceremonial Law, as necessary to Salvation, which was a cause of their meeting together; and with these also may be reckoned those that came with Paul and Barnabas to that council from the Church of Antioch, which were the brethren spoken of as the Text doth sufficiently declare, so that to all men that read but the 15 chapter of the Acts with judgment, they will soon be satisfied, That by brethren and the whole Church, and the multitude there spoken of, are to be understood, some chosen men, men of eminency for all divine knowledge, Prophets who disputed and argued the businesses there, and debated the matter by reason, such as Judas and Silas were, for so the Scripture speaketh, and not the people men and women, the whole Church, the multitude, how many so ever the Doctor can make of them; as Master Knollys and those of his fraternity daily though falsely assert, and upon this false ground and rotten foundation laid in their own brain, would erect and build their new confused Babel of Independency, admitting all people both men and women, not only to Votes in their new Congregations but also in Councils and Synods, and free them from all dependency upon other Churches, which tends to nothing else but to the bringing in of a confusion in Church and State, and to mere Anarchy, and therefore from all that I have now said these two conclusions will evidently insue and plainly arise.

First, That all the Apostles and Presbyters, were all equally Depending upon God and his Word, and that all the Churches we read of in the New Testament were all likewise Dependent one upon another, and upon their several Presbyteries.

Secondly, That the people neither brethren nor sisters in those days were to have their Votes or suffrage in the Government of the Churches, and admission of members and Officers, much less in Synods, that employment belonging wholly to the Presbyters in each Church, whom God had made Rulers in his Church over them, and commanded the people to yield obedience unto them, Heb. 13. and therefore that all the new gathered Churches, affecting an Independency, and challenging their Votes and suffrage in the Government of their Churches, are all transgressors against both precept and example. And this shall suffice to have spake in way of Answer to Mr Knollys his vain jangling against my third Proposition.

And now I will briefly Answer to what Sir I. S. hath to say to it, whose words are these, pag. 11. In asserting, That the Presbyters did rule the Church, and ordinarily other Churches, whom do you hit (saith he) sure not the Independents, as you call them; we grant it is their part to rule: but we distinguish (saith he)? between Authority and jurisdiction on the one hand, and power and interest on the other: this latter (saith he) belongs to the people, the other is proper to the Officers, which yet they exercise in the name of the Church: so they (i) the Officers ordain, they excommunicate (i) pronounce excommunication, they lead and direct in all government and disputes, they have executative power as you demand pag. 93. but the people have a power and interest too, as those places alleged by yourself show expressly, Act. 15. for though ver. 2. Paul and Barnabas are said to be sent by the Apostles and Elders only, yet ver. 4. they are said to be received of the Church, and Apostles and Elders; therefore they were sent unto the Church also; and that word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 with one accord ver. 25. imports a multitude met together; and this to be the result of that multitude, else it were no great commendation of the resolution that it was convened and issued forth 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 . And though only the Apostles and Elders are mentioned, as coming together to consider of the question, verse 6. yet it is said, verse 22. that it pleased (not only the Apostles and Elders) but the whole Church also; therefore the Church also came together to consult; or the Apostles and Elders as a Cnmmittee, first prepared the dispute, as not counting it so safe perhaps to admit the weak to the same, while it was intricate, and then reported it, and had their assistance and concurrence; and the Letters of resolution run in the name of the brethren (i.) the Church as well as the Apostles and Elders, ver. 23. and so in Ordination 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 (i) Election by lifting up the hand belongs to the brethren, though 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 (i.) imposition of hands be proper to the Officers, where there are officers as in a Church constituted and complete.

Thus speaks I. S. in the name of all his brethren in way of answer to my third Proposition, the errors of whose expressions should I but only name them all severally they would take up some time and a great deal of paper; but should I undertake the full confutation of them all and discover all the impiety, evil and wickedness that lieth couched in these his words, I might make a just volumn and spend some months in the employment: for grosser errors my eyes never beheld, and such as are more contrary unto the holy Scripture, and to the honor and dignity not only of the Apostles and Presbyters in the Church at Jerusalem and in all Churches, but to the very dignity and honor of Christ himself the King of his church who the Independents most shamefully disthrone) as I shall by and by make appear God assisting me whiles notwithstanding they make the greatest noise of setting him up King in his Church: And to speak the truth, though the Independents seem to hate Popery, their doctrine is Popery itself only the upside of it turned down and the rear made the front, otherwise there is no great difference between their Tenants, but that the Independent doctrine is more shamefully erroneous (as will be made evident) and more derogatory to the honor and dignity of Christ the King of Kings and Lord of Lord's and to the honor and dignity of the Apostles and Presbyters and more tending to confusion and the overthrow of all Government in Church and State, all the which assertions that they may be made a little more evidently manifest, I will briefly run over and examine some of the passages in this his answer; for to discover but half the errors of it, they would weary the Reader to hear them; and to speak but the verity, he that shall have to do with such whibling and unlearned fellows as I. S. and Hanserdo Knollys are, had need to be a man of intolerable patience.

But before I begin with him, I shall desire the Reader to consider, whether I. S. be not guilty of interferring tautology and great confusion, crimes he lays to my charge to use some of his own language Page 15. and 16. if not contradiction, and be not great of his own sense, and a very catechumenos, and one that hath as well need of instruction as of refutation, for as much as to me it seems unmeet, that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled: these things I refer to the Readers consideration and now I go to my work.

In asserting (saith I. S.) that the Presbyters did rule that church, and ordinarily other churches, who do you hit? Not the Independents as you call them; (saith he) We grant it is their part to rule: but we distinguish between avthority and jurisdiction on the one hand, and power and interest on the other: this latter belongeth to the people; the other is proper to the officers, which yet they exercise in the name of the Church: So they (i.) the officers ordain, they excommunicate (i. • pronounce excommunication, they lead and direct in all governments and disputes, they have the executive power, but the people have a power and interest too &c. And in the 12. page. In Ordination (saith he) Election belongs to the brethren, but imposition of hands is proper to the officers, where there are officers as in a Church constituted and complete. Thus profound I. S. I shall entreat the Reader here to take notice, what he grants, and what he denies, and how at every turn he juggles.

First he grants that the Presbyters did rule the Church of Jerusalem and ordinarily other Churches, and saith, that my Argument hits not the Independents; for they, as he in the name of them all asserteth, grant that it is the Presbyters part to rule. So that if he had stayed here, there had been some ingenuity in him, but with the same breath he blasteth yea bloweth down all that he had formerly set up, and that with a windy vain American distinction (which he hath borrowed out of some of those monstrous Pamphlets that come from thence, called the way and the keys, &c. which are fraught with nothing • ut Peacocks, Parrets, and Jackanapes or more mischievous things though gayly set forth) with the which he befooles himself and amases yea deceives the poor and ignorant people whiles they go gazing after them: For saith he, We distinguish between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand and power and interest on the other, and this latter belongs unto the people, the other is proper to the officers, &c.

But before I come to my answer, I must tell I. S. that from whom soever he hath borrowed this distinction it is groundless and has no Warrant for it in sacred writ; yea I hope to make it good that it is contrary unto it, and therefore it was well said by a learned Professor of Divinity in the University of Oxford, that it was an easy thing to find distinctions in schoolmen to mock God and destroy their own souls, and thereupon exhorted all his Scollers to be very careful lest out of respect to men's persons and from the conceit they had of their piety and abilities in learning they were not deceived: And the same exhortation may now in these our days be of very good use, especially when a lying spirit is gone out into innumerable false Prophets as it did in Ahab his time and when a spirit of error is gone out into the world and is to be found in every house of the Independents in all these regards, I say the caveat and exhortation of that reverend Divine may now be very useful and serviceable for these our times. And therefore it stands all men upon to prove and examine all things according to the Apostles rule 1 Thess. 5. ver. 21, and hold fast that which is good. Now in Divine matters and in the matters of our God we must be especially careful that we see a ground & warrant out of his word, or from excellent reason or good consequences deduced from thence; for whatsoever opinion or distinction in sacred things shall be brought and propounded unto us, and if it have not its authority or ground from thence or some example or president or solid reason or good consequence out of the same word to warrant and confirm it, it is to be rejected by all good Christians, especially if it consist of captious, doubtful and ambiguous expressions, and which will admit of various and different interpretations, and to all the rest be found contrary to the word of God, as this grollish distinction brought by I. S. doth: for he makes a distinction between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand, and power and interest on the other, as if there were some vast difference between them when all learned men know, that authority, jurisdiction and power are all one, as when a Magistrate making use of either of these words says such an one is under my authority or jurisdiction or power, all men know that either of those words signifies his authority over him and those expressions intimate one & the same thing. But as for the word interest which he makes a Synonima with power, it is a mere grollery, for that is a word of ambiguity and of various significations, and admits of divers interpretations, and therefore cannot be the same with power, the meaning of the which I am confident that I. S. himself knoweth not, but this word serves the turn of our American brethren and those of the Congregational way here to juggle withal: But if a man would but seriously consider and weigh what the meaning of this word interest signifieth in their dialect, and what they understand by it, if they would speak out, they shall find that by that distinction of power and interest in the people, by interest they mean and understand a title or right or due in the people, both to the property and possession of all the power in Church and State and believe that it is originally and radically in the people and that it is properly their due and right, and from them only delegated to the officers of Church and State, whom as they do betrust with it, so they may at pleasure take it from them again; and this that I now say the Pamphlets of these times many of them can witness is their meaning by interest; amongst others that of England's birth right and John Lilburns learned Letter who in the 14 Page of the same hath these words.

For my part (saith he) I look upon the House of Commons as the supreme power of England, who have residing in them that power that is inherent in the people, who yet are not to act according to their own wills and pleasures, but according to the constitutions and customs of the Land, &c. out of whose words it is apparently evident, that they make all power to be inherently in the people as their birth-right, to which they may at any time make as good title and claim as to their inheritance, and that they in their language call interest, & this also can be proved out of many of the Independents Pamplets, and from their words, that if they conceive the Parliament use not that power they are entrusted with, according to the constitutions and customs of the land, they may at any time by the people be devested of it, or at least questioned; I am confident I say there would be no great difficulty to prove as much as I now say has been uttered by the Sectaries of these our times, and I am most assured if they increase but to a little greater number, that unless the Lord show his mighty power in preserving the Parliament, if they should in the least displease them, and not humor them to their content, they would put that in execution, and really act what now they but mutter in corners, and set forth in libellous Pamphlets, and in warning pieces, as in London's late Warning-piece; so that this truth is very well known that by power and interest in the Independents language, which they place in the people and not in the officers, they mean the sovereign and supreme authority, and all say that it is their peculiar birth-right, and that they are the Parliament and Judges, and that the officers are but their servants, either to prepare matters for their hearing, or for executing of what they would have them to do, and that whatsoever they speak of authority and jurisdiction in the officers, it is only to please them a little by putting a rattle into their hand that may look gayly, and make a little noise but have no strength in it: for they keep all power in their own hands, and this I hope to make good out of I. S. his distinction, and that to the dishonor of God himself, as well as to the overthrowing of all authority in time through the world, and therefore this distinction must necessarily be against the word of God. But that my charge against I. S. and those of his party, (for he writeth in the name of them all) may the better appear to all that shall read this Book, I will here again repeat his answer to my Argument with his distinction: The Jndependents (saith he) grant that it is the Presbyters part to rule, but (saith he) we distinguish between authority and jurisdiction on the one hand, and power and interest on the other: this latter belongs unto the people, the other is proper to the officers which they exercise in the name of the Church, &c. If he had said in the name of Christ it had been better; but all error is like unto sin, it seldom goes single and alone, for here I. S. commits a multiforme error in robbing not only the Presbyters and Ministers of Christ of their due honor, but in robbing also the Lord of life himself of his dignity and royalty, and making all the Ministers and Officers of Jesus Christ, and his peculiar servants but the vassales and slaves of the people who they call the Church, so that according to I. S. his learning all the Officers and Ministers of Christ are at the people's disposing, for they are all of them to act as the Church directs them, and they must do it always in the name of the Church, and this is the Hysteron Proteron Divinity of the Independents, in all which they deal most wickedly on every side, so that when they seem to speak the Ministers fairest, they abuse them to their face; for here I. S. by that distinction of his would persuade the world that the Independents give great honor to the Ministers, in saying that authority and jurisdiction belongs unto them and is theirs properly, and that only power and interest belongs unto the people, and yet in the same breath before he hath passed two steps, by his own description of the power and interest which he grants unto the people, he gives away all that authority and jurisdiction that he spake of a little before, not only from all the Ministers and Presbyters of the Gospel, but from Christ himself the King of his Church, and invests the people with it, which he calls the Church, saying, that the Officers are to exercise their authority and jurisdiction in the name of the Church, so that it is evident according to his Divinity that the Ministers of Jesus Christ are but the slaves of the people; and that all men may see that this is his meaning, he in the 12. page saith, that the very Apostles and Elders in the Council and Synod at Jerusalem were but as a Committee to prepare the dispute, and then to report it for the assistance nnd concurrence of the multitude; these are his own words, by all which, if hegives not the people, by his distinction of power and interest, a greater authority then he gives unto the Apostles and Presbyters, and to Christ himself, let every ingenious man judge, which is not only a horrid impiety, but abominable in justice & sacrilege: yea every man may plainly perceive, & that out of his own words, and from the language of all the Independents, that he invests the people with all authority under that distinction of power and interest; for in saying in the same pag. that in ordination, election of officers belongs unto the brethren, and imposition of hands to the officers, where there are officers, as in a Church constituted and complete, by these words he invests the people with all full and ample authority as any men are capable of or can be betrusted with: for amongst many of the Independents to my knowledge, they make nothing of ordination and imposition of hands, and count it but a complement that makes nothing to the essence of any officers (as they say) for they assert that it is sufficient to make any man an Officer or Minister if he be once chosen by the people, and it is the election of the church, and their call as they say that makes officers, without which they affirm they can be no true officers; so that if election be the main and essential business required for the making of Church-officers, and as they teach their followers, and they give the power of election to the church or people, and affirm that all things are ever to be done in the name of the church, it matters not with them whether they be ordained, or have any imposition of hands or no; that being in their dialect but a complement, or a needless ceremony (for so I have heard them speak) the which ordination also, though they say it belongeth unto officers, notwithstanding the church and people make no scruple to exercise it at any time and to put it in execution if they think it fit, as the practice of the new gathered Churches daily teaches all men; yea, we may gather as much out of I. S. his own expressions, that the power of ordination as well as of election resides in the people and lies in their hands, who saith, that imposition of hands is proper to the officers where there are officers in a Church constituted and complete, intimating that if they have no Church-officers they themselves may then ordain them, and this is the practice of some of the churches of the congregational way, by all which their language and proceedings, if by their distinction of power and interest they do not assume & arrogate all power to themselves, and take it into their own hands, and invest the people with plenary authority over all Ministers in Church and State, I know not what it is to confer authority on any people. It is most notoriously known, that our Independent Gentlemen would place all authority in the people, and would have the Magistrates and Ministers in Church and State all dependent upon them, and expect their election and ordination from them, and they only would be independent; and all this may be gathered not only from their words and practices, and out of all their Pamphlets, but even from I. S. his own distinction of power and interest, which he saith belongs unto the people: having thus from their own Principles sufficiently elucidated that by the Independents doctrine, and by their distinction of power and interest they assume all authority to themselves, whiles they pretend they give authority and jurisdiction to the Ministers; I will now set forth their wickedness in sh • wing how they rob Christ of his honor, and the Apostles also and Presbyters of Jerusalem of their dignity and power as well as they do all other ordinary Presbyters of their due honor and authority.

And I will first begin with their dealing towards Christ the King and Lord of his Church which is his Kingdom. All those that know how the Kingdoms and Empires of the world a • e governed, know that all their Councils, Ambassadors, Judges, Rulers and Officers under them, either in the time of peace or war, in all their acts of government▪ and in all their precepts and mandates, whether Imperative or Prohibitive, and in all their Courts of Judicature, transact and pass all things with all their writs and summons in the name of the King or Emperor▪ and for any Magistrate or any Court to issue out any writ, warrant, mandate or summons in their own name, and by their own authority makes them fall into a Praemunire, and makes them guilty laesae majestatis; so that all warrants run in the name of the King or Emperor; and whosoever faileth in this kind, as not to command in the Kings or Emperors name, doth make himself a Delinquent, and this if I am not mistaken was one of the charges against the Prelate of Canterbury, that he issued out writs and summons in his own name, or in the name of his Court.

Now Christ is the eternal King of his Church, that immortal and mighty Potentate, in whose name all the Prophets of old • ssued out all their warrants and mandates, speaking ever to the people in the name of the Lord, saying, thus saith the Lord; nothing was done in the name of the Church, or in the name of any creature in those days, and God never changed the style of issuing out his warrants, neither did Christ resign his regal dignity, or put it into the hands of the Church, but is still their King, and he keeps the same tenure still all through the New Testament as well as through the old, commanding that all should be done in the name of God, saying, Matth. 28, 19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and loe, I am with you all even to the end of the world, amen.

By the way take notice the very Apostles themselves were limited what to preach, they might not exceed their bounds, they must teach nothing but what Christ the King of his • hurch commanded them; but Christ never taught his Apostles or any of his true Ministers, to issue out anything in their own name, for that was the custom of all false Teachers; neither did he ever teach them to issue out anything in the Churches name, or say unto them at at any time, what you do in all Administrations let it be done in the Churches name; Christ I say taught nothing of all this; that is but the new blasphemous style of our new gathered churches, and of our new church officers, who J. S. says must exercise their authority & Jurisdiction in the name of the church; whereas Christ our King and Law-giver, as in the place above quoted, so in Mark 16. v. 17. In my name (saith he) they shall cast out Devils, &c. all in the church was to be done by all the faithful Ministers and people of God in Christ's name, the King of his church. And so S. Peter accoring to his Masters command in his Sermon in the 2. of the Acts, preaching unto all the people and new converts, says nothing to them in the name of the Church, but in the 38. verse saith, Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, &c. H • e was a faithful officer, and did nothing in the churches name: he was not acquainted with our new Divinity; and in the 3. chapter, when he cured the Creeple. verse the 6. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (saith he) rise and walk; and so Saint Paul had learned his Lesson well, who when he cast out the spirit of Divination out of the Damsel in the 16. of the Acts, verse 18. saith unto it, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her, and he came out at the same hour. Nothing was done in those days in the Churches name, but in the name of their King Jesus Christ; to omit many other places, we have a special command in the 3. of the Coloss. verse 17. whatsoever you do (saith the Apostle) in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God, and the Father by him: all Christians are bound to do all in Christ their Kings name. Yea, the Apostle in the 1 of the Corinth. the fifth chapter, verse the 3. and 4. teaching the Corinthians, and in them all Christians, in whose name all acts of Church governemt should be managed and exercised, saith I verily as absent in body but present in spirit have judged already, that he that hath done this doed, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Here the Apostle teacheth all Ministers of all Churches, that as all believers are to be received into the Church in the name of the Lord Jesus their King; so when any for their disorderly walking are to be cast out, they are to exercise all those acts of government, and to cast them out in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ their King, he knew nothing of this new style, that our Independents and learned I. S. publish to the world, who in terminis saith, that that Authority and Jurisdiction that is proper to the officers is to be exercised in the name of the Church; these are his words, in the name of all his brethren, saying, the Officers ordain, and they pronounce excommunication, they lead and direct in all government & disputes, & have the executive power, but the people have a power and interest too; that is in his learning, the officers must yet exercise their power and Jurisdiction in the name of the Church, so that the Ministers are but the churches servants at pleasure, and their executioners. This is our American Divinity, so that whereas we are taught by Christ himself, and all his blessed Apostles to do all in the Church in the name of Christ our King, these our confiding brethren, and our Itinerary Ill-dependent Predicants have brought in a new style of exercising all acts of church government, and that not in Christ the Kings name, but in the name of the Church; and whereas the Church of Jesus Christ is the most absolute Monarchy in the world, in the which all things should be done and acted according to his command, and in his name, they have changed this Monarchy into so many thousand sucking Democrasies, or rather so many Anarchies, in all the which they transact all things, and send out all their Writs & Warrants in the name of their several new Churches, and so have dis-throned Christ, whom notwithstanding they pretend to set up as King in his Church. But whether in this their so dealing with Christ, and with his people and subjects they are not more Independently and arrogantly blasphemous, then the Pope himself, or any Prelates that ever the world yet saw, I leave it to the saddest thoughts & deepest consideration of all such as truly love the Lord Jesus, and desire from their soul the glory of his Kingdom, and that he may be our sole Monarch and eternal King, and may perpetually rule in his Church, and have all things done in his alone name, and according to his own appointment; to the judgment I say of all such cordial subjects of Jesus▪Christ, and to their seriousest thoughts and censures I leave the consideration of this weighty business: I am confident they will conclude their blasphemy was yet never paralleled by the very Pope himself, or by any of his shavelings, who were never yet so notoriously usurping and injurious to Christ the King of his Church, as to send out their Mandates in their own name, but all things issued out in in nomine domini, hence came up the Proverb, when they heard of anything from the Pope, that they usually said in nomine domini incipit omne malum, for he always pretended to do all in the name of Christ the King, for that style notwithstanding did that man of sin ever observe and keep, continually ever setting forth his grolleries in nomine domini, whereas our Independent Brethren act all their baggatelly and trifling business in the name of their several churches, their officers ever saying, when they carry or bring any learned Messages one from another, that they come in the name of the churches, and what they do, they would have them know they do it as officers in the name of the church; Christ's name the King of his church is never so much as heard amongst them in the transacting of their church affairs, so that we may truly say, that whatsoever they pretend of setting up Christ as King upon his Throne, their practice showeth the contrary; for in the government of all their several churches, they act all not in the name of Christ, but in the name of their several churches; so that Christ the Kings name is not so much as mentioned amongst them (as we have learned not only from their daily practice, but from I. S. and our American monstrous Divinity.

To all that I have said for proof that all the Independents by their doctrine disthrone Christ and set themselves in his place whiles they most of all pretend they set him up upon his Throne, I may for a corallary add their new traditions and practices which they impose upon all the Members of their several new gathered churches as the commandments of God and as the practices of the Saints of old, and enjoin them and urge them as the statutes, ordinances and decrees of God; yea I might here farther show how they practice contrary unto Christ's the King and Lord of his Church commands: For whereas he sending out his Disciples and Apostles setting down the conditions upon which all men should be admitted into the Church, which were to repent and believe and to bebaptized in token of their beliese and repentance, which whosoever should accept of and embrace, they should thereupon be received into Church fellowship; the Illdefendents notwithstanding regard not Christ's commands, but unto it add their own vain traditions, for the which they have neither precept nor president in all holy writ nor the practice of any well reformed church; and they force men to conform unto them, or else there can be no admission; howsoever they offer themselves to do as much as Christ their King commands them to do. And whereas Christ the King of his church laid the Government of it upon the shoulders of none but his Ministers, to whom he had given the Keys; the Ildependents not only dispense with this law at pleasure, but absolutely oppose it; for contrary unto this law is their doctrine and practice who teach that the power and interest lies in the people, and that is their part, and that the Ministers are to exercise their authority and jurisdiction in the churches name, and so they spoil the Ministers of their power and invest the people with it, and give laws unto the people of God, yea unto the Law • iver Christ himself; whether all these dealings therefore of the Illdependents with many more paslages of the like nature that might be produced, if not worse, be not to disthrone Christ, when they slight his Laws and prefer their own traditions before the commandments of Christ the King of his church and revile and reproach his servants and officers offering all the indignity that can be committed against men to them all, I leave it to the judgment of the wise and godly. Again I refer it to the wisdom of any discerning spirit to consider and judge what difference there is between the Sectaries and the Pope and his conclave in this point, whenas they both assume all authority to themselves and take it from the Ministers, and make them but their executioners: Surely they will find them both equally guilty and both Antichristian in rebelling in all things against Christ; For Christ saith to all men that they that despise his Ministers despise him, and they that despise and slight Christ, in as much as in them lies they disthrone him, and therefore when all the Independents daily practice all the malifices above mentioned, and that in a higher manner and strain, pretend they what they will of setting up Christ upon his Throne, they plainly disthrone him & dishonor him; which may yet further appear if we consider some of their other passages; for it is well known that some of the chief pillars in their houses and churches those Atlasses that some of them confide so much in for their strength and so much extol for the preaching up of Christ's Kingdom and for the setting of him up upon his Throne, I say some of these as it is well known have upon the Frontispices of their Pamphlets set this title Against Jesu Worship.

Now although it be praise worthy in any in maintenance of God's true worship and service to write against all Idolatricall or Superstitious worship of the true God or Jesus, yet it is a thing no way beseeming any Christian to write against God Worship and Jesus-Worship which are both commanded because that some fail and err in the manner of the Worship of either God the Father or God the Son: Yea, it would have been thought in any Christian Nation an unsufferable thing to have tolerated the very reading or publishing of any books with such a title and inscription though the matter in them might have been good: for no man much less a Christian o • ght to write against Jesus-Worship no more then he ought to write against God-Worship, for Jesus also is God blessed forever, the eternal Son of the eternal Father, who hath commanded all his Disciples John 5. To worship the Son as they worship the Father; Now then if it be an unsufferable thing to write against God-Worship, no less intolerable is it in any to write against Jesus-Worship, and all such as write such books and all such as allow of them and approve of them and their authors, let them pretend what they will of setting up Christ upon his Throne, all such as these are I say, make Christ a Pagent King and salute him with hail Master as the Jews did, to usurp some of their own rhetoric and learned elequence, but indeed they disthrone him: For what is it to disthrone a King if writing of Warning Peeces, and Pamphlets against Kings▪service and Kings-honor be not? And what I pray is it to disthrone a King▪ if this be not to pass all acts of Government in the people's name, and to send out all their warrants and mandates in the people's name, and to command all their officers to manage all their employments in the people's name, never so much as mentioning or taking notice of the King in a public act of Government? Are not all these actions and passages to any rational creature a sufficient demonstration that the King in that Kingdom is either absolutely disthroned or is but a King to them in ludibry as Christ was to the wicked Jews? I am confident that all understanding men will so conclude. Now when in all the new congregations those new gathered churches the Ildependents there have such amongst them that write books and that with their approbation against Jesus-Worship, that is, against the Worship of Jesus who is the eternal King of his Church, and when every day in all their particular churches they exercise all the acts of Government in the name of their churches, and not in Christ's the Kings name, and that against the command of Christ and his Apostles; I affirm and by the grace of God I hope ever to make it good, that all this is not only a robbing Christ our Lord and King of his due honor, but a blasphemous and more then a Papal usurpation and derogating from his Kingly dignity and royalty, yea it is indeed a plain disthroning of Christ their King and thrusting him out of his place and putting themselves in it, which whether or no it be not the highest point of contumacy, rebellion and blasphemy, I leave to the judgment of others; as for myself, I know not what either of these things be if they be not blasphemy; for when I learned Divinity I was taught that blasphemy consisted in this, either to give unto God that that belonged not to him and to the excellency of his Majesty & divine nature, or to detract from him that that peculiarly belonged either to the essence, persons or glorious attributes of the diety, or to give the honor properly and peculiarly due to God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or to any person in the glorious Trinity, to any creature, or maliciously or wickedly to speak evil of God his essence, attributes, word, works, &c. or to do or act anything obstinately and willfully that is or may be derogatory to the dignity and honor of the Divine Majesty of God blessed forever; any of these things, when I studied Divinity, were thought blasphemy and worthy of severest punishments, and those that perpetrated any of those crimes were reputed unworthy to live, and proclaimed blasphemers and men unsufferable: and yet there are many such kind of creatures in our new gathered Churches who are guilty of all that can be called blasphemy, and that rob Christ the Lord of his Worship and write against Jesus-worship, & blaspheme the holy Scriptures, and deny the diety of Christ and the blessed Trinity &c. and disthrone Christ in their new Congregations whiles they cry hail Master, exercising all acts of Government amongst themselves in the name of the Church, never so much as mentioning the name of Christ the King▪ and many more intolerable insolencies they daily commit against the Sovereign Majesty of heaven and earth the Lord Jesus Christ our Lord and King; and all these notwithstanding are counted Saints that commit these vices and malifices; and great books are writ in defense of all these wicked blasphemous wretches, and both their errors and their persons are countenanced, and that by their great Rabbyes and Champions, all which notwithstanding are in God's dialect and in his holy Word both old and new counted abominable creatures, and men unholy and displeasing unto God, and the acters and abettors and countenancers of all such blasphemies and wickednesses were thought equally guilty, and great and fearful judgments were denounced against them all as it is apparently evident out of God's holy Word, and yet these great evils are counted but the infirmities of the Saints amongst our Independent masters. Now then I say when the Illdefendents are guilty of all these crimes, as partly acting them, partly tolerating such as are both actors and abettors, or conniving at them and countenancing them, pretend they what they will of setting up Christ upon his Throne▪ I hope to be ever able to make it good, that they all of them disthrone Christ & manifest to the world that as much as in them lies they would not have him reign over them, and so make themselves guilty of that crime they lay to the Presbyterians charge whom they daily accuse to be enemies of Jesus Christ & his Kingdom and such as would not have Christ rule over them, when notwithstanding the Presbyterians do and ever will by God's divine assistance set up Christ King upon his Throne, and shall ever desire that all honor and glory and praise may be given forever and ever to the King eternal, immortal, invisible the only wise God the King of Saints and King of Kings, and that he may solely rule forever, and that all his enemies and such as rob him of his honor and dignity may be made his footstool, in the number of which the greatest part of the Sectaries are and all such as comply with them.

And this shall suffice to have spoken concerning the first part of my undertaking against I. S. which was to set forth the wickedness of the Independents and to show how by their doctrine they rob Christ of his honor and Kingly dignity when they pretend they set him upon his Throne, which is an unsufferable blasphemy in them.

And now I come to prove against I. S. that I undertook in the second place to make good: viz. that by their doctrine they not only rob Christ of his honor, but all Christ's blessed Apostles, Ministers and Servants of their power, and leave them nothing but the name and shadow of authority▪ which is a horrid injustice and wickedness in the Sectaries and Independents to do; which although I have briefly proved before, yet I shall here again for the more full elucidation of the truth and for the better setting forth of the Illdependent wickedness a little further expatiate in this business and answer to all that I. S. hath materially or with any color to speak in behalf of his cause, where I presume he hath spake as much as he and his complices thought and conceived made for it and for which their vain and impious jangling they must one day give a dreadful account.

I undertake therefore now to prove that by this their doctrine, they not only rob Christ the King of his Church of his honor and dignity, which I made good before, but all the holy Apostles and Presbyters his Ministers and Servants also of their honor, power and dignity, which the King of his Church the Lord Jesus had invested them with and bestowed upon them, all which will clearly appear if we shall again briefly consider and but take notice, First what power and authority God gave unto his Apostles and to his Ministers, which was the power of the Keys Matth. 16. and Matth. 18. that is all power in his Church under him Matth. 28. and Mark 16. I say if we shall duly in the first place but consider that all the Apostles Christ's special Ministers and Servants were by Christ himself invested with all authority and guided in their preaching and writing by his holy spirit, so that whatsoever they taught or writ as his Ministers, were the dictates of his spirit, and the commandments of God, and were forever to be the rule of his Church to all succeeding ages to the end of the World; and if we consider also what he promised to his blessed Apostles and all his Servants and Ministers that should succeed them: viz. that he would be with them to the end of the World; to all which Ministers likewise he had given the keys and made them stewards and overseers of his house which is his Church; I say if we but duly weigh all these things we shall find them all invested with plenary authority, and by the very commission of God forever enabled to exercise all acts of Government in the Church, and that by themselves without the assistance and concurrence of the people who were never joined with them in commission, but received commands from heaven to obey those that God had made guides over them and made Rulers in his Church; I say if we maturely consider all these immunities and privileges and the power that the Apostles and Ministers of Christ were endued with and that from Christ the King of his church: And on the other side shall but consider what learned I. S. in the name of all the Independents his brethren declareth concerning not only all the ordinary Ministers of the church, but what he delivereth concerning the blessed Apostles, we shall clearly perceive that herobbs them all of that honor, dignity and power which God hath given them, and invests the people with it, which is a double injustice▪ First in taking from the Apostles and Ministers that which was their due and which God had bestowed upon them. And secondly, in giving unto the people, that which pertained not to them and to which they had no right nor could lay no claim and with which they were not to meddle.

But take notice of his Doctrine, what he holds and believes concerning the ordinary Ministers, page 12. In ordination (saith he) election belongeth unto the brethren, Jmposition of hands is proper to the Officers, where there are Officers, as in a Church constituted and complete, otherwise if the Church be not complete, according to his learning the people may do it. Thus I. S. speaks there, and in the 11 page he grants it is the Presbyters part to rule. But as soon as he hath spake the word, as if he repented of what he had said, he comes in with a but, saying, but we distinguish between Authority and Jurisdiction on the one hand, and Power and Jnterest on the other: this latter belongs unto the people; the other is proper unto the Officers, which yet they exercise in the name of the Church. The Officers (saith he) ordain, they excommunicate, they lead and direct in all government and disputes, they have the executive power, but the people have a power and interest too, that is, in his dialect as he declared himself in the words going before, the Officers must exercise all their authority and jurisdiction in the name of the Church, and must do as the people shall direct them, for their power is only the executive power, they are only the executioners of the church, they can neither elect any officers, nor excommunicate any without they have the leave and good liking from the people; for the radical and original power lies in the people and church, which if it be not utterly to overthrow the authority of the Ministers, and to make them nothing but cyphers in the Church, and most sacrilegiously to rob them of that power Christ the King of his Church hath given them, and to arrogate it, and assume it unto themselves, and whether this be not the greatest wickedness and injustice in the Independents that can be committed against men, I leave it to the consideration and judgment of all conscientious and learned men: and whether such temerarious and bold impudent thieves and Church-robbers ought not with greatest severity and justice to be proceeded against for this their malefice and unsufferable wickedness, who do not only take from the Ministers of Jesus Christ, whom they ought ever to have in great reverence for their works sake, 1 Thess. 5. that honor, power and authority Christ hath given them, but labor likewise now with all their might to take from them also that that God hath put into the hearts of men his servants to give them, viz. their tithes and lively-hood, and all that by which they should support themselves and their poor Families, which is as intolerable an in justice and ingratitude, both towards God and men, as can by mortal creatures be committed, which wickedness of the Independents and Sectaries, if the Magistrates shall suffer to go unpunished, I most confidently believe, that the Lord and King of his Church, the Lord of heaven and earth will take the quarrel of his righteousservants into his hand, and will pour down his plagues, both on them and all their complices and abettors.

And now I have made it evident, how they rob all the ordinary Ministers and Presbyters of the Gospel of their due honor and power, I will make it likewise appear that the Apostles also are by their doctrine in the same predicament, and that they deal no better with them whom they have robbed also and spoiled of their honor, power and authority, and count of them all no otherwise then of ordinary and common Ministers, and but as of a company of Executioners: for we must take what I. S. speaks in this business, to be uttered in the name of all the Independents; for he is but their mouth, and his book came forth by the authority and approbation of them all, and was esteemed of as a goodly piece, and he highly honored amongst them for it. His words are these, page 12. The Apostles and Elders (saith he) as a Committee, first prepared the dispute, as not counting it so safe perhaps to admit the weak to the same, whiles it was intricate, and then reported it, and had their assistance and concurrence; and the Letters of resolution run in the name of the brethren (1) the Church as well as the Apostles and Elders: these are his words.

And for confirmation of this his opinion, that the Apostles and Elders were but a Committee, and only prepared the business and then reported it, and could not without the assistance and concurrence of the brethren have ratified the Decrees made in that Council, he in the same page produceth his reasons for this his fond conceit, saying, that Paul and Barnabas were sent unto the Church and brethren as well as to the Apostles and Elders, for they were received of the Church; withal (saith he) the word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 with one accord, verse 25. imports a multitude met together; and this to be the result of that multitude, else it were no great commendation of the resolution that it was convened about and issued forth 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , and in verse 22. it is said, that it pleased (not only the Apostles and Elders) but the whole church also: therefore the Church also came together to consult: or the Apostles and Elders as a Committee, first prepared the dispute, &c. Thus worshipful I. S. says and un-says, determines and concludes, and then goes from his resolution again, affirming that Paul and Barnabas were sent unto the Church also, and that the multitude was with one accord together, or else it had been no great commendation of the resolution; and he asserteth that the whole Church came together to consult; and yet in the same breath as if he had forgot himself, he comes in with his perhaps as a man doubting and wavering in his opinion, and altogether in uncertainties, saying, that perhaps the Apostles did not count it safe to admit the weak to the dispute while it was intricate, so that here all men may see that he makes it suspicious and doubtful, whether the brethren, the multitude, the whole Church were present there or not, and that for a double reason, both in respect of the Apostles discretion and wisdom, as also in regard of the weakness of the Brethren, saying, that the Apostles and Elders were but as a Committee to prepare the dispute, and after reported it for the churches assistance and concurrence, and so he learnedly concludes and determines by all this his babble that they were all there, and they were not there; where can any man find this creature, and what man of understanding is he that shall behold the levity, vanity, rashness and ignorance of this fellow, to say no more, that would not conclude that he is a mere Catechumenos, and that one had need to instruct him instead of confuting him: for as much as it may seem to any man unmeet that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled; these are I. S. his wise expressions concerning me in his 16. page, which whether or no they may not fitly be applied to himself, I leave to the judgment of the wise and learned, who whiles he will be a Teacher of the Law, according to that of Saint Paul, 1 Tim. chap. 1. verse 7. understands not neither what he says, nor whereof he affirms. I am most assured there scarce ever in the world appeared upon the Theater of learning a more unlearned payr of wicked triflers then this I. S. and Hanserdo Knollys. But it will not be amiss to consider the reasons of I. S. by which he laboreth to prove that which he himself had first positively set down to be a truth; to wit, that all the brethren, the multitude and the whole Church were together in the Synod; and yet he after doubteth whether they were present there or no, I say it will not be amiss to consider the reasons, by which he affirms these two things; the first, that all the whole Church were present in the Synod; the second, that they all had their vote and concurrence, without which there had been no great commendation of the resolution of the Council as he prattles, and without which the Decrees of the same had not been ratified; his first reason is this, because (saith he) Paul and Barnabas were received of the Church, Ergo, they were sent unto the Church as well as to the Apostles and Elders as if one should thus conclude, the Ambassadors of France and Swede were sent unto the King and Parliament, and the City of London entertained them, Ergo, they were as well sent unto the City of London as to the King and Parliament; again, the City of London assented unto whatsoever the King and Parliament accorded unto to gratify those Ambassadors after they had made them acquainted with what they had done, Ergo, all the City and the whole multitude of Citizens had not only their votes and concurrence in those great businesses, and were Judges also in the Parliament, but they were altogether in the great Council, and that the Parliament could have ratified nothing without them; would not all men that should hear any man thus argue, gather that that man that should make such inferences from such premises, and should so conclude, that he were crazed in his brain, or else a very Ninny, and void of all reason?

And yet this is the manner of I. S. and Hanserdoes disputing, and which is more to show the vanity of this man, he understands by the brethren, the multitude, and the whole Church, agreeing and according with Hanserdo in this sottish opinion, who holds that by brethren, the multitude, and the whole Church, all the believers in Jerusalem both men, women and children are to be understood, and that they all had their Votes in that counsel and ratified the Decrees, without the which they had not been valid, whereas it is most certain, as I shown before in my Answer to Hanserdo, that there was not only an impossibility that such multitudes of believers as were in Jerusalem should all meet in any one place, but that by multitude there and the whole Church must necessarily be understood some choice and select men such as Judas and Silas were, who are called Prophets and Ministers of the Gospel, of which the Church of Jerusalem was furnished with good store, and of which that great council only consisted, and who debated and argued con and pro about the business in controversy, which is manifest from the seventh verse, where it is said, when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up &c. and in the 12. verse for farther confirmation of this truth, it is related that then all the multitude kept silence and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul &c. And that James after they had held their peace gave in his judgment, to which the whole multitude and Church assented: so that out of all these words it necessarily and undeniably followeth that by the brethren there, the multitude and the whole Church are to be understood, not the common people, men and women in the Church of Jerusalem; For it is said they were brethren and therefore all the sisters were excluded, who were not at any time permitted to vote in churches 1 Cor. 14. And therefore the whole multitude of believers were not there, for women were part of the multitude; neither were the weak brethren to be admitted to doubtful Disputations by a special command from the Apostle Paul Rom. 14. v. 1. and this is accorded to by the wise I. S. that confident disputant, who saith that the Apostles and Elders as a Committee first prepared the dispute and after reported it, not counting it safe to admit the weak to the same, whiles it was intricate, so that from Saint Paul's Doctrine there were neither women nor weak brethren there, and from I. S. his own concession, the weak were not admitted all the time of the dispute: and therefore the whole multitude of believers that were in Jerusalem were not in the Council, by all which it is apparently evident, That by brethren, and church, and multitude there, the whole company of Believers in Jerusalem cannot be understood, and therefore by Brethren, Multitude, and the whole Church, we are necessarily to understand the learned and godly Prophets, Ministers and Members of that church chief and eminent ones such as Judas and Silas were, and with them are to be joined the other Presbyters that came out of all the Churches of Judea, with those that came with Paul and Barnabas from Antioch, which being all considered together, made up a great number and multitude, all the which are called the Church, v. 3. the Scripture there speaking Synecdochically, and taking a part for the whole, I say, of all such as these are did that Synod consist, and not of all sorts of believers w ^ch were not members fit for a Synod and Council, which was to be managed and ordered and consist of such men only as had received the Keys, and upon whom the government of the Church was laid, which was never committed to the people, much less to women; & therefore I say in all these respects, by the Brethren and Multitude, and the whole Church, we are to understand it Synecdochically as before, for all those that were in the council which were but a part of the whole, for the eminent Ministers and Prophets that were Commissioners there, and assistants to the Apostles and Eld • rs, he which yet is more eviden • from this reason, That they only could be Judges and Voters in that Synod, which had heard the whole debate and the full dispute on both sides; for none can be Judges in any cause to give righteous judgment, that have not fully heard the allegations and probations on both sides, which I. S. acknowledgeth, the weak neither heard, nor could judge of, because they were intricate; ergo, they could not be Judges, nor give their voices there upon no terms: for they could not be Judges of things they had not fully & understandingly heard; now the weak neither heard, neither could they have understood if they had heard (both which I. S. accordeth to) and therefore by multitude and the whole Church the weak brethren cannot be meant, much less the sisters: and if men would but with deliberation weigh and consider of things as they ought to be pondered and considered of, very reason without the warrant of holy Scripture would persuade every rational and well grounded Christian that none could or can be Judges in any cause but such as have heard the pleading of the whole business, and controversy from the beginning to the ending, which none but the apostles & presbyters, and the Commissioners, and such as Silas and Judas and Barnabas were, did; for the Scripture saith verse 6. that the Apostles and Elders came together for to consider of this matter; and when there had been much disputing, &c. out of which words we may gather, that none but they that managed the disputation, and heard the whole debate, were or could be Judges, which all the people neither did, nor possibly could do; neither may we conceive of the Council of Jerusalem that they had any raw headed boys, or giddy braind creatures, or Minors in it, or any such as were ever running out and in; for we may not imagine, that that great Council was like a pigion house, where they are continually fluttering out, and fluttering in; for that Council consisted of such men only as were holy, grave and approved; all Prophets, such as Silas, Judas and Barnabas were, such as for gravity and experience, were thought fit companions to sit with the Apostles and Elders in consultation; so that it is apparently evident, that Council consisted of none but venerable, precious, godly and staid men, of whom we cannot by the Law of charity think that they did the work of the Lord in that Synod negligently, or to the halves, or that they did not all sit close, and diligently to the work from the beginning of the Session to the conclusion of the same, and therefore that as they met altogether at a set hour or time, so that they continued and kept together in consultation and dispute as long as any other sat, and till they in their wisdom by their joint consents and agreements thought fit to sit to the full determination of the whole business, and till the Decrees were made, were it fewer or more days or weeks, and although it be not recorded how long the Council continued, yet we read nowhere in the 15. chapter, but that they sat altogether in judgment, the Apostles and Elders, and Commissioners, till they had heard the whole debate and di • pute, and none but they: This truth may be gathered, not only from the holy Scripture, and from that I have formerly spake, but from I. S. his own words above specified, viz, that there were neither weak brethren, nor the sisters; and therefore it is a great wickedness in I. S. from such uncertainties as he goes upon, to raise and make such conclusions as he doth, which tend to no other end, but for the taking away all the authority and power from the Apostles themselves, which God notwithstanding had invested them with, and to put it into the hands of the people, which they had nothing to do with; for as his words declare, he accounteth the Apostles and Elders but a Committee only, to prepare the dispute, and then to report it, that they might have the assistance and concurrence of the people, without the which (as he affirmeth) there were no great commendation of the resolution, that is to say, if the people had not assented unto the Decrees, they had been of no effect, which if it be not wholly to devest the Apostles of all power and authority, and lay it and place it upon the people, I leave it to the judgment of the learned, then the which there cannot be a greater sacrilege, and injustice perpetrated against Ministers and servants of God in the world by any; and as this dealing and proceeding of I. S. is most injurious to the Apostles, so this his doctrine is contrary to all divine and human learning; yea, contrary to the very opinion of the learnedst of the Independents: for this I. S. his judgment is, that the Apostles and Presbyters without the concurrence of the people and Church, could not have made the Decrees valid and binding, whereas all the Independents (besides himself) joining with the Papists against the Protestants, affirm, that the Apostles only in that Synod and Council, by their infallible authority ratified those Decrees; and so they exclude all the Presbyters, saying, that the Apostles acted not as Presbyters in that Council, but as Apostles stles with a transcendent power, and were only the men who were led and guided in that Session by the Holy Ghost, and by a spirit of infallibility (which say they) the Presbyters were not endued with; and therefore their presence only as Apostles made their Decrees binding, which opinion of the Independents howsoever it is very erroneous, as I have often shown in the foregoing Discourse; yet it is point blank against the Doctrine of I. S. who places all the power in the people, robbing both the Apostles and Presbyters of their authority; and on the other side his brethren, they place all authority upon the Apostles, and deprive the Presbyters of it, and count them but ordinary men, and not infallibly there assisted by the Holy Ghost; both which opinions as they are contrary unto the word of God, so they sufficiently prove that these men are but Babel Builders, whose tongues and language are divided, and tend to confusion; for they are diametrically fighting one against ano there; so that all the world may see that those men that begin once to fight against the truth, like the Midianit • s they destroy one another.

But this has generally been observed, that such men as these are, that study to invent Engines to beat down the truth, yet all the vapors of their brain cannot so much as cloud so bright • Sun, but it will evermore gloriously shine forth to the dazzling of the eyes of all the enemies of the same: So that it is a wonder of wonders to me to see the people generally so hardened by obstinacy, that they cannot yet discern into the craft and juggling of the Ill-defendents predicants, who whiles they give the people or Church power and interest, to humor them (it is not so much out of love to them, as hatred to the Presbyterians) to build up their Diana Temple of Independency, hoping by raising it to ruin the truth it self, and to overthrow the whole Fabric of Presbyterian government, which Christ the King of his Church hath appointed, and in fine by this means to bring in a confusion of all things, and a m •• re Anarchy in Church and State.

But howsoever the Ill-defendents seek to put out the light of the truth by this their snuffing at it, they make it burn the brighter, as I. S. and Hanserdo Knollys have done by their snuffing at it.

And this shall suffice by way of Answer to have replied to what both these Gentlemen Master Hanserdo and I. S. had to say to my third Proposition▪

I come now to my fourth, which I will first set down with their Answers to it, and then make my reply as I have done to all their former cavils; and I will go on in the same order, first answering to Hanserdo and then to I. S.

My fourth Proposition is this, viz. That the Church of Jerusalem and the government of the same, is to be a pattern for all Congregations and Assemblies in any City or Vicinity, to unite into one Church; and for the Officers and Presbyters of those congregations to govern that Church jointly, in a College or Presbytery.

And for the proof of this there needs no great dispute; for all men acknowledge that the mother Church must give an example of government to all the daughter Churches; now then when it doth evidently appear, that this mother Church of Jerusalem, in her most flourishing condition, and by her first constitution, was consisting of many Congregations and several Assemblies, and that they were all governed by a Presbytery, or a joint and common Council of Presbyters: then it followeth, that all other Churches should be governed after the same manner as the mother Church was, to the end of the World; neither do the brethren deny, but the government of the church of Jerusalem, must be the pattern of government to all churches; and therefore out of that misprision and mistake, that she was consisting of but as many as could meet in one congregation, they take the church of Jerusalem, for imitation, and teach all their several congregations to do the same, and to exercise the same power among themselves Independent, and to govern with as absolute an authority in their several Congregations, as the whole College of the Apostles and Presbyters did in the church of Jerusalem, and from the which they allow of no appeal, as all that know their tenets can witness: So that this last Proposition being strengthened both by reason and the consent of the brethren, needs no further proof.

Now to this my fourth Proposition and the Arguments contained in the same, Master Knollys thus replieth Page 14. Neither do the Brethren deny, but the Government of the Church of Jerusalem must be the pattern of Government to all Churches. But the Doctor knows, that the brethren deny that the Church of Jerusalem consisted of divers Congregations and several Assemblies under a common Council, Consistory, College, or Court of Presbyters. And this they have not granted, neither hath the Doctor proved. And this may be sufficient to be said in Answer to the four Propositions touching the first Question.

This is all Mr Knollys hath to say by way of Answer to this my last Proposition; in the which Answer of his, I desire the Reader to observe what he in the name of all the brethren granteth and assenteth unto, and what both he and they all deny (at least as he saith); for he personateth them all. He grants in behalf of them all, that the Church of Jerusalem must be the pattern of Government to all churches: And this is as much as I desire.

But by the way take notice that Master Hanserdo reckons before his host; for I. S. is one of the brethren, and yet he Page 13. asserteth that the example of that Church is not bindingly presidentiall. Now what he and all the brethren deny, if Mr Knollys be worthy of credit, are these two things, viz. The first, That the Church of Jerusalem consisted of divers congregations. Secondly, they deny that the Doctor hath proved it.

That all the brethren deny (as Mr Knollys saith) that the church of Jerusalem consisted of many congregations, is not altogether to be believed: For my brother Burton, none of tne meanest of the Brethren, doth not deny it: yea he not only grants it, but by arguments proves that there were many Assemblies of Believers in the church of Jerusalem: and therefore Mr Hanserdo in this also his assertion reckons before his host.

But whereas in the second place he saith that the brethren deny that I have proved there were many congregations of Believers in Jerusalem, he being better acquainted with their denials then I am, may speak according to his information, and so is not so blame worthy as in the former of his conclusions; but if it were anything material, or to the purpose, I could name some of the Brethren of the congregational way, that told me discoursing with them, that by reading of my book they were convinced that there were many Assemblies of believers in Jerusalem: and therefore to my knowledge all the Brethren do not deny that I have proved it: But whether or no I have not abundantly evinced there were many Assemblies of Believers in Jerusalem, and that not only out of the holy Scripture, but from my brother Burtons and Hanserdoes own words, I leave it to the judgment of all such men as have any understanding and without prejudice shall read the foregoing discourse course, whither I send them, entreating them likewise with diligence to peruse it: and then I doubt not, but whatsoever they have believed concerning that business, or whatsoever they have formerly denied, they will be convinced that I have sufficiently proved both from Scripture and from my brother Burton and Saint Hanserdoes own concessions that there were many Congregations of Believers in the Church at Jerusalem, and withal I am most assured they will also for time to come take heed how they believe Mr Knollys and those of his fraternity upon their bare words without other sufficient and approved witnesses.

And this shall suffice for Answer to Master Knollys.

Now I desire the Reader to hear what learned I. S. hath to say; He in the 13. Page answers thus:

First, saith he, They are not (meaning the Congregations and several Assemblies) an example of uniting or aggregation, except it be found that there were many Churches aggregated, which a very facile and swasible Reader may well doubt of, for anything that hath yet been said to make it good.

For Answer to I. S. I say that he that is but a very facile and swasible reader, that will vouchsafe to peruse and consider but what I have wr • t in way of Answer both to himself, Hanserdo Knollys and my learned brother Burton, will never doubt but that I have sufficiently made it good that there were many Assemblies and Churches aggregated in Jerusalem: and therefore I shall send all such as are studious to find out the truth, and to shun error and to decline all trivall and fond seducers, to what I have written in the foregoing Treatise.

And this shall serve for Answer to his first Reply.

Secondly, saith he, If this were granted that many Churches did aggregate and unite in the beginning, yet would not this example be bindingly Presidentiall, &c.

Here I shall desire the Reader to take notice of the vanity of this Novice, and worthless man who is so far from all learning and knowledge, as he is not acquainted with the very principles of any sound reason or with the Independents doctrine; for he hath the whole Army of the Independents against him in this point as well as the Presbyterians, who all acknowledge that the church of Jerusalem is for its Government to be the pattern of Government to all churches to the end of the World; and that hath been all the controversy between the Presbyterians and the Illdependents, whether that Church consisted of many Congregations and Assemblies, which if it could be proved they professed that then the cause was lost and the day was the Presbyterians; for they all acknowledge that the Church of Jerusalem must be a pattern of all Churches; and this Master Knollys in the name of all the brethren assented unto in the foregoing words, so that these brethren are not so well acquainted with one another's mind and principles as they persuade others they are.

Now profound I. S. denieth that were it so that the Church of Jerusalem consisted of many Assemblies, yet for all this that it could not be bindingly Presidentiall, these are his words by the which he beats up all the Independents Quarters, to use his own rhetoric, and utterly overthroweth that cause he as a Champion came out to maintain. Neither hath he only beat up the Independents Quarters, but indeed all the Apostles Quarters: For that Government they established in Jerusalem and in all the other Primitive Churches, was left for a pattern of imitation to all Churches in all succeeding Ages, as not only the Independents but all orthodox Divines do accord, yea the Scripture it self hath commanded it, Isaih 2. saying, out of Zion shall come the Law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem: Jerusalem therefore must be a pattern, both for doctrine and government, and this all the Independents themselves acknowledge, and the Scripture in many places saith, whatsoever was written was written for our instruction; therefore the government of all the Primitive Churches, especially that of Jerusalem, and the example of all the Apostles, are left for our imitation, Phil. 3. Now when the Apostles constituted all churches after one way, and aggregated many Churches or Congregations all under one Presbyterie, in each of them severally, as in that at Jerusalem, that Church principally, and all the rest are left for a pattern of imitation of Church government to the end of the world, and this is confirmed by the Holy word of God, and assented unto by all the Learned, from all which when J. S. most rashly and wickedly dissenteth, I leave him to the censure of the seven new Churches, who I hope will whip him out of their Assemblies, with his foolish Flagello flagelli, for thus sottishly beating up of all their quarters, and renouncing all the Independents Principles, whiles he labored to maintain them; and this shall suffice for answer to I. S. his grolleries to the former Propositions concerning the first Question.

Now before I come to my second question, concerning the gathering of Churches, I will say thus much by way of Preface concerning Hanserdo, I. S. and my brother Burton, that as they are very confused in their replies, jumbling things together, that are heterogenious, leaping backward and forwards, picking and choosing, snatching and carping, yea, and trifling about words, as the custom of all the Ill▪defendents is, so they deal not fairly with me, nor ingenuously, nor Saint-like with the people, whom they desire to delude, and therefore they pass over the most material Arguments, never so much as making mention of them, and slighting all as not worthy the answering to, and by such arts as these are, they most prodigiously abuse the well minded people, and by these their unchristian, unbrotherly, and wicked dealings, they every day broach their errors with more facility, and abuse all their ignorant and credulous followers, to the utter destroying of many of their poor souls, some of the which as I am able to prove, were men esteemed of to be godly, as walking unblameably, being also diligent hearers of the word before they knew them, yet after their acquaintance with them, being first by their means seduced from our Churches, after some time they fell from their congregations also, into wicked and desperate opinions, and in a short time after, became so profane and beastly; yea, so atheistical, as it would exceed ordinary belief to relate, and truly if I had not very good witness to prove what I say, besides my own knowledge and experience, I would not have mentioned it; but because if occasion serves I shall be able to produce many Presidents of fearful Apostasies, even amongst those that were their Scholars, and the Disciples of the Independent way, I am the willinger to speak of it, that I might arm all men with some caution in reading their Pamphlets, which they write against the Presbyterians; for they never deal candidly, neither with them, nor with their own brethren: for first they either wholly dissuade them from reading our books, or else by their emissaries, and railing Libels they most shamefully vilify and bely them so, that they come prejudicated to them, and then they send their own putrid and corrupt scriblings amongst those of their Fraternity, whom they miserably cozen and abuse with their fraudulent jugglings, and that against all the Laws of piety and common honesty, to the disturbance, both of Church and State. This I thought fit (I say) to speak before I come to my second question and several Queries arising from it, concerning the gathering of Churches, and their answers unto them, wherein they rather trifle then dispute, as will by and by appear; I shall therefore in my replying unto them, first set down the question fully with all my queries, and then answer to all the materials of their fond cavils and evasions, with their silly responsals to them, and after I have done that, I will set down God's method, and the Apostles practice in the gathering of Churches, with the manner of their admitting of Members, and then reply to whatsoever they have to say against my Arguments and Reasons deduced from holy Scripture; and for further confirmation of the truth, I will add many more Presidents, and them undeniable ones of the Apostles receiving of Members, and that into Churches formed after the New-Testament form, according to their own description; besides, those that were received into the Catholic visible Church, and all without any of those conditions they now require of their Members, and I shall by God's assistance evidently make it appear, that God by his holy Apostles and Ministers uses but one way of admitting of members into the church, whether it be the catholic visible church, or any particular presbyterian church, whether they be admitted in an ordinary or an extraordinary way, I say by thegrace of God I shall clearly elucidate this truth, that God useth one and the same method in gathering his people out of all nations into Church fellowship, and the communion of the Saints, which ought to all Ministers to be a rule to walk by in the receiving in of Members into their Congregations.

Having thus set down what order I will proceed in, I come now to the second question between us and the Brethren, which is, concerning the manner of gathering of Churches and admitting of Members and Officers, viz. Whether Ministers of the Gospel may out of already congregated Assemblies of `Believers, select and choose the most principal of them, into a Church-fellowship peculiar unto themselves, and admit of none into their society, but such as shall enter in by a private covenant, and are allowed of by the consent and approbation of all the Congregation. And this question brancheth it self into these several Queries: The first, whether for the gathering of Churches there be either Precept or President in the Holy Word of God, that the Preachers and Ministers of the Gospel did ever leave their own ordinary charges, to which they are called, and whereto they are fixed, with a command not to leave them, and under pretence of a new way, or a new borne truth, or a new light, did run about and alienate the minds of the people, well affected formerly to their several Ministers, as of duty they were bound, as who had converted them to Christ by their Ministry, and fed them still with the sincere milk of the Word, and built them up in their most holy Faith: I say, the first Quere is, whether there be precept or example in the Word of God of any true Ministers so doing? and whether it was ever heard of in the Apostles and Primitive times, that any believing Christians were in great numbers congregated from among other believing Christians, and molded into several Congregations and Assemblies, as separate and distinct bodies and Churches from them, and who had no Church-fellowship with the other Congregations, nor communicated with them in the Ordinances, but were independent from them, and absolute among themselves? and whether this way of gathering of Churches was ever heard of before these days? and whether this be to set Christ upon his Throne, to make divisions and schisms in Churches, and among Believers and brethren, and that upon groundless pretences.

The second Quere is, whether for the making of any man or woman a Member of the Church, it be requisite or necessary, to the believing and being baptized, that they should walk some days, weeks, months, perhaps years with them, that they may have experience of their conversation before they can be admitted, and after that, a confession of their faith should be publicly made before the Congregation, and the evidences of their conversion, as, the time when, the place where, the occasion how they were converted, should likewise openly be produced for satisfaction to the Church before they can be admitted to be Members, and if any, either men or women shall except against their evidence, that then they are not to be admitted; this is the second Quere.

The third is, whether for making any man or woman a Member, or an Officer of a Church, the consent of the whole Congregation or the greater part of them besides the Presbyters and Ministers be requisite?

The fourth Quere is, whether for the admission of any one into Church-fellowship and Communion, a private solemn Covenant be requisite or necessary for the making of any one a Member, the neglect or refusal of the which, makes them incapable of their Member-ship and admission? There is no question between us and the brethren, about a public covenant, for we have Presidents of that in holy Scripture, in all public reformations.

The fifth Quere is, whether the women and people, as well as the Presbyters and Ministers have the power of the Keys, and whether the women have all their voices in the Church, both for election and reprobation of Members and officers, as well as the men, and whether the consent of all the women, or the greatest part of them, be requisite for the making of any one a Member or Officer, so that if they gain▪say it, being the greater number, or allow of it, the most voices carry the business? this is the fifth Query, the practice of the which, as of all the former, the brethren in some of their Congregations hold for orthodox, and think all these things required of any that offer themselves to be a Member.

The last Quere is, whether the practice and preaching of all these things, and the gathering of Churches after this manner, be to set up Christ as King upon his Throne? and whether Churches and Assemblies thus congregated be the only true Churches, and in the which only Christ rules and reigns as King, and all other that are not molded up after this fashion, be no true congregated Churches, and in the which Christ is not set up as King upon his Throne, which is the opinion of the brethren, as will afterward appear.

If I have failed in anything in stating the question, or in any of these Queries, the brethren must pardon me; for I speak according to the practice of some of their Congregations, and according to the doctrine many of them teach, not only in their own Assemblies, but in every Pulpit through the Kingdom where they come, as I shall be able to prove: And therefore if I have been mistaken in anything, they may blame their own practice and teachers, and thank themselves also, that in the space of almost three years (though it has been again and again desired at their hands) they have not so much as set down the model of their government, and what they would have, with all the appertainances belonging unto it, that all the world might be out of doubt. What therefore I find practiced amongst some of the most zealous of them, and the most approved for integrity, and what I shall be able to prove, that I have without any spirit of bitterness specified.

And now according to my method propounded I will set down their Answers to what all of them have to say to the several branches and parcels of the ensuing discourse concerning the gathering of Churches; only in this I shall refer every cavil they make against my several queries and arguments to their right place; whereas I said before, they had in a confused and disorderly way by snatches answered to what they thought themselves best able to deal with, eitherwholy passing by the main arguments with silence, or slighting of them with contempt, wherein I shall in their due places discover their dishonest dealing.

But before I come to my answer, I shall desire the Reader to hear, first what Mr Knollys and I. S. say concerning me about this second question.

Hanserdoes words are these Page 14. And this question (saith he) the Doctor brancheth into six Quaries, wherein the judicious Reader may perceive the Doctor (through mis-information I conceive) hath mistaken the stating of the question, which he partly acknowledgeth. Thus Mr Knollys speaks.

I. S. his words are these Page 15, 16.

The second question, saith he, is of the manner of gathering of Churches and of admitting of Members and Officers proposed by him: 1. in the Chaos it seems. 2. orderly, (as he supposes) drawn forth into six Queries, though I dare not say there is not interfering, tautology and great confusion. The nature in which the things are: viz. of Quarie, encourages me rather to do something in them, for that I hope the Doctor will not be great of his own sense, but take an Answer of these things from those that know the way better then himself, who it seems is but a Catechumenos therein. I shall here therefore endeavor to instruct him instead of refuting him, for as much as to me it seems unmeet, that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled. Thus speaks learned I. S.

For my brother Burtons good opinion of me and his kind expressions of his love towards me I shall in their places record them with my due thanks to him for the same.

But whereas Master Knollys accuseth me of ignorance in the stating of the question, and saith that I have partly acknowledged it, and conceives that this mistake in me arose from a mis-information: In all he saith he plays the vain man; for I am able to prove from their daily practice all that I there set down, and know the question as well as any Independent living, and can at any time make it appear that Master Knollys knows not the Independents principles. And so far as their New Lights have illuminated the world, so far I know of their ways; and that I acknowledged and no other thing: But why did not Mr Knollys in this place, if I were mistaken, honestly show me my error? And why did he not as beseemed a Christian and a man truly fearing God, now set down fully and plainly what their Way is that all men may know where to find them? These ungodly men are not so honest as to set down their way, and yet they pretend others are ignorant of it: when notwithstanding they know it better then themselves. In the same steps of Hanserdo doth I. S tread in accusing me of interfering, tautologies and great confusion, and that I am great in mine own sense, and that I am but a Cateshumenos, and that he knows the way better then myself, and that he will endeavor to instruct me instead of refuting me, for as much as to him it seems unmeet that a man should be polemically exercised before he be positively principled.

Thus this wretched man tramples upon me for my ignorance, and vapors at no allowance of his own knowledge, and yet keeps not his promise with me, to instruct me, or to show me my error, wherein he proclames himself to be a very unworthy creature, that I say no more: for it had been his duty to have ingenuously here shewn unto me my failings if I were in ignorance, and to have truly and uprightly set down what their Way is (seeing he affirmeth he knoweth it so well) that all men might at last be undeceived if in error. This I say had been the part of a sincere Christian and one truly fearing God, in the number of the which I cannot think or believe I. S. to be so long as he fondly boasteth of himself and keepeth not his promise: and it is most apparently evident to all that have read his wicked Pamphlet that he is in the gall of bitterness and band of iniquity where they find nothing but brutish impiety and apparent ignorance: For he himself, though a great teacher, knoweth not neither what he saith nor whereof he affirmeth; who is as apparently nescient as Hanserdo of the Independents Doctrine, and had need himself to be positively principled before he be polemically exercised.

But whereas J. S. accuses me to be a Catechumenos in their principles. I will undertake this upon my life before the whole Kingdom to make it good, that I know the Independent way as well as any Independent in England; and I farther undertake if the great Council of the Kingdom shall call me and all the dissenting Brethren before them, that I shall be better able in half a days space to deliver in, what model they would set up (if they will deal ingenuously before God and the world and speak their conscience) then they all put together shall be able to do; I may perhaps be thought something presumptuous; But J. S. his fond expressions makes me speak that I do, which notwithstanding I still undertake to make good.

And if I have not been mis-informed, there was one of the congregational way, and none of the meanest of them, hearing my brother Burton speaking very trivially of me, after he was gone out of his presence and passing a long with a friend of his and of the same fraternity, much blamed my brother Burton, saying, that he had heard him speak as hyperbolically of me both for my learning and honesty as ever he heard man speak of another, and added moreover, that though I differed from them in opinion, yet he conceived that I was the same man still in all respects that I was when my brother Burton spake so well of me, and said withal that he did verily believe, whatsoever Master Burton spake in a vilifying manner of me, that I was better acquainted with their Way then he himself. And there will be no great difficulty if occasion serve to prove all that I now say. And therefore J. S. plays the child to babble thus to me, who by God's assistance and the power of his might shall be able to confound ten thousand such as he is, and to teach both him and all his complices whether assembled or not assembled, that their tenets are most wicked and abominable. And I hope that succeeding ages will say that God enabled me to be as good as my undertaking, for in his might I shall ever come out against all the Independents and Sectaries.

And now I come to answer to all their Replies to my Queries.

And first whereas they babble about the general stating of the question and divide those things that I had joined together and made but one general question of, they show themselves but triflers and not serious Christians. For I never made any; doubt but that the Ministers of the Gospel may gather Churches for God in all ages sent his Prophets and Ministers for this very end to gather in the lost sheep of the house of Israel and all such as belong unto his election into his house; for I know that the ordinary way to bring men to the knowledge of God and of Christ, wherein consists life eternal, is by the ministry of the Gospel, this I say is the ordinary means God uses for the perfecting of the Saints, and for the edifying of the body of Christ, and this I have learned from the holy Scripture, Ephes. 4. 11, 12, 13. & 1 Cor. 12. 28.

And therefore all the pudder that I. S. and my Brother Burton make with their grollish Interrogations about that business is but to beat the air, and nothing to the purpose, and no answer to my Quere, as the Reader may well perceive, if he looks but back to the question and first query, neither can my Brother Burton or I. S. make it good by any one example out of the holy word of God, that the ordinary Ministers of the Gospel, did ever leave their own ordinary charges, to which they are called, and whereto they are fixed, with a command not to leave them, and that under a pretence of a new way, or new light did run about to gather converted men, from among converted men, and so pick out of other men's folds and flocks the best and fattest sheep, and molded them into several Congregations and Assemblies, as separate and distinct bodies and Churches from them, and who had no Church-fellowship with other Congregations, but were independent from them, and absolute amongst themselves: I say and affirm, that neither my Brother Burton, nor I. S. nor any predicant of the congregational way can show me any one President of this kind, either in the Old or New Testament; and this was the question, whether there were any such thing to be found in the Scripture; and not whether the Ministers of the Gospel may gather Churches, as both J. S. and my Brother Burton deceitfully make it. Now whereas in the 12. page he compareth our Churches and Congregations with the Popish Assemblies, and saith, that they profess themselves to be Christians as well as the Protestants, and that their gathering of people out of our Ministers flocks is as tolerable as gathering them out of Popish Parishes and Assemblies; for this is the drift of his reason; he dealeth most uncharitably, and unchristianly with his brethren; for he himself in his book called Babel no Bethel, hath there by the help of learned Calvin and Chemnicius, and other Orthodox Writers, proved that the Church of Rome is both Idolatricall and heretical, and errs in the foundation, and that all the Papists living and dying in that their Faith and belief, are in the state of damnation. So that they being considered in his notion, are as Infidels and aliens from the common wealth of Israel; and the gathering of churches out from amongst the Papists is to open their eyes and to turn them from darkness to light & from the power of Satan to God, and as bringing men out of heathenish idolatry or from Jewish obstinacy, from the companies and congregations of the which all Christians have an injunction to come out, they being commanded to come out of Babylon.

Now I say in that my brother Burton compares all the Christian brethren in our congregations to the idolatrous Papists, he showeth the uncharitable opinion he hath of us all, so that now it is no wonder that upon all occasions he proclames us all the enemies of Jesus Christ and his Kingdom. But blessed be God, We believe that through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved as well as any Independents think they shall be saved Act. 15. v. 11. Seeing God hath put no difference between us & them purifying our hearts by Faith. And therefore he deals very unchristianly & unbrotherly with us to compare us to the Papists, especially when according to our Covenant our Parishes and Churches are purged both of the Service Book & Hierarchy and all Popish Superstition, as he himself acknowledgeth in the 13. page of his uncharitable Pamphles: and therefore this his instance of gathering Churches out of our congregations who believe in God as well as they▪ answers not to the question.

And for his other instance in the 13. Page, Where he asks me if I know not that the ancient Church of the Jews was then a Church when the Apostles by their preaching gathered a Church out of it? a Christian Church out of the Jewish Synagogues?

For Answer, I say first, that I well see (and that without spectacles) that by these stones he hurls at all his brethren, and casts up dust yea dirt thus in their faces (to usurp his own expression) pa. 13. that he shows his want of love and charity to us, comparing our congregations and Churches at every turn to the Popish and Jewish Synagogues, and esteeming of the gathering out of people from amongst us, to be the same with gathering men and women from out of their Idolatricall and Jewish Assemblies: for why otherwise if this be not his meaning, doth he bring his instances from both the Papists and the Jews at every turn? and therefore for his so dealing, in the first place I answer, that he is very injurious to his Brethren and must seriously repent for this uncharitable dealing.

But secondly, I answer that my brother Burton is much mistaken: for the Apostles did not gather Christian Churches out of the Jewish Synagogues, as we may see in the second of James and through the whole story of the Acts, where we find that the Apostles in all their peregrinations ever frequented the Synagogues and preached unto them there, and our Savior himself notwithstanding all the scandals in that Church and all their traditions, preached daily in the Temple and in their Synagogues, as the Scripture relates; yea and the Apostles themselves after Christ's resurrection preached daily in the Temple and in all Synagogues wheresoever they journeyed; yea Christ himself commanded all his followers, the whole multitude with his own Disciples and Apostles to hear the Pharisees Matth. 23. ver. 1, 2. And without doubt they did obey their Master and made no separation from the Synagogues and S Paul in the 10. to the Hebrews, blameth those that did leave the assembling of themselves together: therefore he did not allow of a separation from the Synagogues and from Christian Assemblies and moulding themselves into separate Congregations, under a pretence of a more refined holiness and pure partaking in the ordinances, which is the pretence of all stragglers; all such proceedings were contrary both to the precept & example of Christ and his Apostles who taught and practiced the contrary, Christ commanding the man out of whom he had cast the devils, and that would have followed him, that he should go to his own friends and abide amongst them still; and he ever sent all those lepers he cured to the Priests; he never gathered Churches out of the Jewish churches, neither did ever any of the Apostles or godly Ministers do any such thing, but blamed it in all; and therefore the Independents going against both precept and example, are highly disobedient to God, and have for these their wicked and ungodly practices a great deal to repent of and to answer for: And if we will compare times with times, we may believe it was amongst the Jews as it was amongst us under the Prelates reign and power, those godly and powerful Ministers such as my reverend Tutor Master Richard Rogers, Mr John Rogers of Dedham and Mr Dod and others; when they sometimes went to visit their friends through City and Country by their preaching they gained many Souls unto God in many Towns and Villages, where after they had (through the blessing of God upon their Ministry) converted them, they left them still abiding in their several Parishes enjoining them diligently and carefully to wait upon their Ministers there, dissuading them from separation upon all occasions; and so it was amongst the Jews, they came out to the Ministry and Baptism of John and heard him upon every opportunity, but never left their own Synagogues and their own Ministers, as the Scripture relateth, when they returned to their several abodes, and so they went out to hear Christ and his Disciples as occasion served, and then returned home again to wait upon the ordinances in their several dwelling places, and they had Christ's command to do this, neither is it ever recorded in all the New Testament, but in the tenth chapter to the Hebrews, that the Christians relinquished the Jewish Assemblies, for which they are greatly blamed by Saint Paul. And I am confident if all the Independents do not seriously repent of their wicked and pharisaical separation from our Assemblies, the Lord will show at last some fearful judgment upon them. For I affirm it, they have not one president for all these their practices in the whole Book of God: and therefore my brother Burtons instance of the Apostles gathering of Christian churches from out of the Jewish Synagogues, as it is in all respects unchristianlyand and deceitfully done to delude his fellows, so it is not true that he averreth: For the Apostles did never gather Christian Churches out of the Jewish Synagogues: for they had a command from Christ to the contrary; neither was there any cause for any Christians to separate from them; for they exercised at that time nothing but the Moral Worship in their Synagogues, having Moses and the Prophets daily read and interpreted unto them Acts 15. 21. and to those Synagogues that unerring Council at Jerusalem, consisting of all the Apostles and Presbyters Act. 15. did send all the people and their several cities to be instructed in Moses; therefore the Apostles and Ministers of those times never gathered Christian Churches out of the Jewish Synagogues, as my brother Burton would infer to make good their wicked separations from us; and their gathering of their Churches out of our Christian and believing Assemblies, which, I am ever, by God's assistance, able to make good, is nothing to the question that I propounded concerning the gathering of Churches out of already gathered Churches. And therefore hitherto my brother Burton hath befooled himself to no purpose but to discover unto the World how little skill he hath in Divinity when he is out of a common place wherein every child may learn as much and far more then he can teach him. And this answer to my brother Burton concerning gathering of Christian Churches out of Jewish Synagogues for the justifying of their unwarrantable separation, may serve to the same objection wheresoever the Reader shall meet with it, as Page 18, &c. And this might suffice to have answered to what my brother Burton had to say to the first Quaerie concerning gathering Churches out of Churches: But because my Brother Burton conceives that if they should not separate themselves from our Christian Assemblies (whom he saith do not come up close to the rule) into their several new gathered Congregations, they could not set up Christ upon his Throne as not making his word the rule of reformation or a sufficient rule upon which we must necessarily depend, for the form and law of Reformation, and that we ought not to wait on men; and thereupon propoundeth a query to me Page 19. thinking by this means the better to justify their unwarrantable proceedings: therefore I shall first gratify my brothers desire and answer to his demand and then I will pass on to reply to what he and his complices have to say to my five other queries.

But I will set down my Brother Burtons oowne words which are these, p. 19. seeing (saith he) we have all bound ourselves by solemn Covenant to reform ourselves, and those under our charge, according to the word of God; yea, and everyone to go before others in this Reformation; tell me now Brother (saith he) if it were not a matter worth the while for our Reverend and Learned Assembly, seriously to take into debate, whether the general tying up of men to wait necessarily on the Synod for its final resolution about Church government, be not an usurpation upon our Christian Liberty and a Diminution at least of the authority and sufficiency of Scripture, and so consequently be not a trenching upon a fundamental heresy; as also an inhibition, restraining every man in his place, Ministers, Masters, &c. from setting upon the work of Reformation, and so necessitating a violation of our Covenant, or a dangerous retarding of the work; thus my Brother Burton: these and such like are the subtle baits, and cunning snares wherewith he catches and draws into his Net many ignorant, yet well meaning tender hearted Christians, whereas Reformation and Discipline in the Church in the full power thereof, had been settled long since, had not Independents studied ways to molest our peace in opposing the settling of Church government, according to the word of God; for this they have, and do labor to withstand with all their might and great subtlety, by which means my Brother Burton, and those of his faction increase and strengthen their party, and set up their new ways, and give an in-let to old and new heresies without interruption; but this practice of Independents is offencive to God and man, and absolutely contrary to that Covenant, which we have all entered into. For when we covenanted for Reformation, it was to be understood that we were thereby engaged to humble ourselves before the great God, and with fasting and prayer earnestly to seek to the Lord, who is wise in heart, and mighty in strength, Job 9.4. able to over-power the hearts, wills and affections of Principalities and powers; yea, of the greatest Kings and Monarchs in the world; who by his wisdom can advise, counsel and direct, and by his mighty and omnipotent working, and by the operation of his spirit can enforce, and compel them to obey his Royal commands, and to set up an universal Reformation of Religion and Discipline in his Church, in its full power according to his sacred word and divine will: And whereas we have all bound ourselves by solemn Covenant to reform ourselves, and all under our charge, according to the word of God, this strictly binds everyone of us in special to Reforme ourselves, and those under our charge, by forsaking every sinful way and evil practice, that we or they have formerly walked, delighted and continued in, whereby we have provoked the Holy one of Israel unto anger, Isaiah 1. 4. and hereby Magistrates, Ministers, Parents, Masters of Families are bound to take care, that all under their charge frequent the Ordinances of God, and exercise all holy duties with them, and that they do • not suffer any to wander and straggle abroad into dangerous ways and by-paths, and errors and heresies, and blasphemous tenets; for if they let them walk where they please, it shows but little care taken to reform and keep them in the right way, which leads to happiness, and it is a violation of this part of our Covenant, where we have bound ourselves everyone, to reform one, and all under our charge; yea, and we are bound everyone to labor to go before others in this Reformation: But our Covenant doth not therefore bind every man and woman to take upon them to set up, and follow what Government seems good in their own eyes, or rather is most suitable to their boundless spirits: our Covenant gives no such Liberty to any; for were this the sense of the Cov • nant, when it binds every particular man to endeavor to go before others in Reformation, this were to covenant against sin, Formality, and Tyrannie, and to vow for unlawful Libertis • e, Prophanesse, and an Anarchy which would bring inevitable confusion in Church and State; for under the pretence of going before others in Reformation, Heresies, unwarrantable, corrupt, and dangerous new opinions would then be broached, maintained, and dispersed abroad, without either the fear of God or man (as at this day we are taught by sad experience); and all these deadly and destroying Heresies would be disseminated and divulged under pretext, that their ways are agreeable to God's word, and that they come nearer, and walk more close to the rule of Christ then others do: although their feet tread not in the steps of his commandments, but walk in ways contrary to his holy will; and therefore such disorderly walkings as these, are a Deformation of Religion, not a Reformation according to God's word and our solemn Covenant which we have all entered into. But my Brother Burton, as I related before, puts it to the question, Whether or no it be not an usurpation upon our Christian Liberty, and a diminution at least of the authority and sufficiency of Scripture, &c. for a man to be tied to wait on the Synod for its final resolution for Church government: It may be answered for Magistrates to be zealous for Reformation, and to settle that Church government which God hath appointed is so far from being any usurpation upon our Christian Liberty, or a diminution of the authority and sufficiency of the holy Scripture, as they have warrant for it out of holy writ; and the practice of the most godly Princes is there recorded for their example and encouragement, to go on undauntedly in the work, 2 Chron. 15. 8. to the 16. v. 2 Chro. 17. the 6, 7, 8, 9. 2 Chron. 29. &c. 2 Chron. 30. &c. 2 Chron. 31. 31. &c. 2 Chron. 34. &c. 2 King. 23. to the 24. ver. Ezr. 9. Neh. 9. so that God's word be the absolute rule to direct them in this their undertaking, and the true intent of our Covenant, is that we will all be aiding and assisting to the utmost of our power to further them in their holy endeavors. Now wherein for the effecting of such a Reformation that may in all things be grounded on Scripture can a better course be taken then authority hath appointed? namely, by calling together an Assembly of Ministers, men skillful in the original tongues, learned in all other sciences, and approved to be godly, pious, zealous, orthodox men, and mighty in the Scripture, and which is more, to be self-denying men, who being met together have humbled themselves by fasting and prayer before the Lord of Heaven and earth, imploring his divine assistance, illumination, and direction out of his holy word, for the Reforming and settling the Government of the Church, according to his sacred will; and for these godly, conscionable, and learned Ministers, as they did thus meet together, so they have ever since laboriously searched the Scriptures to find out what is the good will and pleasure of our God herein, and they have not concluded of anything, but what they bring their warrant for out of God's word, being taken from the example, practice, precepts and commands of the holy Apostles (and the Churches in their times) for that government which they stand for, and humbly desire to have settled and established in the Church of God. Now can it be justly said, that if men wait patiently while these truths are discussing (which have been the longer by reason that daily opposition, and many cavilling argumentations that have been brought against that truth which they hold forth, by some irresolvable spirits) that this is to tie them to wait on the Synods final Resolution? no surely; for to wait on the mere resolves of men, the wisdom of the State would never permit to tie any man, but to wait on God's word, and those warrantable and unquestionable truths, which by the Synod are clearly demonstrated out of the same, concerning Church-government; and this is a truth cannot be denied, or gain-said, that it is better, and the safest way for men to wait, see, and seriously consider of what God shall out of his word reveal to his faithful servants the Ministers, who are met together in his name and fear for this very end and purpose, diligently to seek and find out his good will and pleasure in this particular, then for men to tie themselves to the private opinions and ways & policy of some particular men, who under the pretence of going before others in Reformation set up what government they please, and cause people to enter into a Covenant of their own framing, for all which when matters are rightly stated and tried by the balance of the Sanctuary, there is not any color nor warrant out of God's word, nor in the solemn Covenant which we have taken; & therefore in the judgment of all, who are humble and low in their own sight, and who sincerely aim at the glory of God, & Zion's peace; it is not thought any usurpation upon our Christian Liberty, nor diminution of the Scriptures authority, nor retarding of the work, to wait and see what God shall make clear to the Synod out of his word, upon their debates, consultations and answers to all opposing parties; for this is a way to make truth perspicuous, and as we are exhorted to try all things, and hold fast that which is good; so those that are godly, and will not be deluded with shows, they bring all these results to the Touch-stone of God's word, and if they find that they endure the teste, then they dare not but receive and hold them fast, being the words of sound and wholesome truths, so that the final Resolution for Church government which men wait for, is not from the Synod, further then they hold it forth, and make it manifest to be agreeable to the Scriptures, and to that rule all men are bound to submit, and we ought to wait and see what the Synod doth conclude of out of God's word, as the Church of Antioch, and other Churches did, Acts 15. where we have a President for our imitation set before our eyes, in the which we may observe that the Christians of those times were as well instructed as any in the new gathered Churches, or any of the dissenting brethren, whether assembled or not assembled, and yet all those holy and godly Christians thought it no usurpation upon their Christian Liberty, nor no diminution of the authority and sufficiency of the Scripture, nor no dangerous retarding of the work of reformation, and of settling their Church-government, to wait upon the Synod at Jerusalem for their final resolution about that question there in debate, and which had caused so great a schism between the Jews and Gentiles; I say these glorious and truly precious Christians had none of these panicke fears the Ill-dependents of our times are troubled with, but willingly and cheerfully waited upon that Synod and Council, without making in the mean time any rents and separations from their Christian brethren; and this their doing was left for our example to teach us to do the like, and not under a semblance and show of going before others in • reformation to make rents and schisms in the Church and State, and to gather new Churches, and separate Assemblies; and this shall suffice in way of answer to have spake to all my Brother Burtons cavils against my first Query, and for answer likewise to the question propounded by him to me: and now I come to see what my Brother Burton hath to say concerning my second Query, viz. touching the requisites in those that are to be made Members; the Reader may look back to the query by which he will the better discern the Grollery of the man, As for I. S. he answers to that query (although it be the practice of many of new gathered Churches) that he knows none such who hold it so; so that it seems I. S. is but a Catachumenos in the Independents doctrine, whiles he undertakes to instruct others in it: But my Brother Burton he is well verst in all the Illdependent discipline, both for the Theory and Practick, who answers thus to my second query, page 14. I pray (saith he) what harm is in that, that none are to be allowed of but by the consent and approbation of all the congregation? for answer I say, very much harm, in regard they impose a Law upon their brethren, that Christ the King of his Church never laid upon his people, by which they deprive them of that Christian Liberty Christ hath purchased for them, and in the which they have a command to stand fast, Gal. 5. 1. which is not to be entangled with any yoke of human bondage. But it will not be amiss to hear his reasons; They (saith he) who are to walk together, should first be agreed together, as Amos the 3. 3. (an two walk together except they be agreed? If therefore any one of the Congregation can object anything, as a just cause of non-admittance of a Member, he ought to show it, not only for his own peace, but the peace of the Church, &c. A second reason is this, to know those well (saith he) that are to be admitted, abundance cautela non nocet, in things weighty we cannot be too wary; nor do we so much look at circumstances in conversion, as the substance.

This is all my brother Burton hath to answer to my second qu • ry which he calleth a caption.

But for answer, I expected that he should have produced some command or example out of God's Word, for the ratifying of this their practice in their new congregations; for that is ever to be the rule of Christians obedience, and where our King Christ Jesus hath ceased to command, there all his servants must cease to obey; now when these of the congregational way have neither precept nor president for these their proceedings in their admission of Members, it is but a vain tradition of their own brain and ought by all Christ's true Disciples to be abhorred and abominated.

But whereas my brother Burton saith, that they that are to walk together, should first be agreed together, and cites these words out of third of Amos ver. 3. Can two walk together except they be agreed? To this I thus Reply:

First, that if the Independents were God's, and all the Presbyterians went on in wicked and sinful courses, then this question of his had been to the purpose; but when it is certain that the Illdependents are sinners as well as the other Sons and Daughters of Adam, and many of them known to be notoriously scandalous, not only for their damnable and heretical opinions and schismatical doctrines, but for their lying, railing, hypocrisy, pride, covetousness, &c. and all of them guilty of the sin of seducing and misleading the poor people; I say in all these regards, I see no reason why there should be any necessity laid upon God's heritage and people to be acquainted with them and their ways, except it be that all such as fear God and will walk in his paths, by knowing of them, may shun them and their by-ways, which they are bound to do both from precept Prov. 4. v. 14, 15. Ps. 1. v. 1. and from the example of our Savior, John. 2. ver. 24. where it is said that Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew them. And so all good people and such as truly fear God should make use of their knowledge to shun such seducers and deceivers, and to decline all their by-ways.

But secondly, I answer that God hath nowhere enjoined or required that those that either are to be made Christians, or to be admitted into Church fellowship should either know the faces of all the Members of the congregation, or should be particularly acquainted with the whole church that he is to be admitted a Member of: For we have no warrant for such practice in the whole Scripture, neither is there any example of it from one end of the Bible to the other; and therefore it is mere Will-Worship and a serving of God after the commandments of men, which is so often condemned in holy Scripture, as Isaiah 29. Matth. 15. Mark 7. Coloss. 2. and therefore ought to be abhorred as an intolerable yoke of bondage, which neither we nor our forefathers could bear Acts 15. Whereas Christ's yoke is easy and light, and they that take his yoke upon them find rest unto their souls Matth. 11. ver. 28, 29, 30. who saith unto his people, Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. He doth not say, If you will come to me and be admitted into church▪ fellowship, you must first walk sometime with my people and be acquainted with them; I say Christ the King of his church hath given no such command either to those that are to be admitted or to his Ministers and stewards of his house which is his church of any such practice.

Thirdly, I answer that as there is an impossibility almost for any man or woman to be acquainted with a whole Church, so it is neither necessary nor useful: For that knowledge that is required as necessary to salvation and for the making of any fit to be church Members, consists in these things, that they repent and believe and be baptized, and that they should know the only true God and whom he hath sent, Jesus Christ. John 17. And this is the first thing absolutely necessary to salvation which is required of all such as will be Christ's Disciples.

The second thing is, the knowledge of ourselves, which consists in self-denial and regeneration, For if any will be Christ's Disciples they must deny themselves and take up his cross daily; For so saith Christ our King Matth. 16. Luke 9. And again John 3. ver. 3. Christ speaking unto Nicodemus, saith to him and in him to all men, Except a man be born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God ver. 5. Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God: He must be a new creature, saith he. And this is the knowledge that Christ the King of his church requires as necessary for their salvation, so for their admission into church fellowship, and he that has these qualifications has as much as Christ requires; and there is no need of any particular or familiar acquaintance with all those of the congregation or with the whole church or that they should walk some time with them, therefore it is wickedly done in all those of the congregational way to impose laws of their own making upon the people of God their brethren who are a free people: and therefore they that desire to serve their King Christ Jesus and to hear and obey his voice only, ought to detest all these false teachers that would so enthrall them, especially they ought to abominate their practices because they make these their traditions God's Ordinances.

But whereas my brother Burton saith that abundance cautela non nocet, and that they look not so much at circumstances in conversion, as the substance.

I affirm it is a most arrogant expression in any so to speak; for in his thus speaking, he makes as if it were in the power of poor mortal creatures to search men's hearts and judge of the secrets of the same which is only God's peculiar: but that is not all, but in this his expression there is a high strain of confidence in the man that he will seem to be wiser then Christ himself that was the King and Lawgiver of his Church and the mighty Counselor; and yet he gave no precept for this abundance cautela: and yet it is most certain, that he revealed the whole will of his Father, and his Disciples also delivered unto the church the whole counsel of God Act. 21. And yet neither Christ nor his Apostles did ever deliver this doctrine of walking with the church sometime, nor never spake of this abundance cautela; therefore I gather it is neither part of the will or council of God that they enjoin this walking upon his people: therefore all the true subjects of Jesus Christ and all his leige people ought to abominate and abhor all such usurpers as my▪ Brother Burton and his complices are, that trample down the Laws of Christ our King and impose their own inventions and traditions upon his people for Christ's Ordinances and Statutes.

And this shall suffice to have spak to what my brother Burton had to say to my second Qu • rie.

To the third query, concerning the consent of the people and congregation, my brother Burton replies that it is answered before, which was no answer to that query.

But now learned I. S. comes in, and Page 18. We hold it (saith he) yea, that for the admission of any to Membership or Office bearing in a church the consent of the congregation or the major part thereof, as well as officers, be required, and that as well in regard everyone takes a charge upon him as in respect of interest.

I expected that this groll I. S. should according to his promise, not only have given me a parcel of words; but as he accounted me a Catachumenos, that he should have taught and instructed me out of God's Word, which must be the rule of our obedience, and out of his statutes, where ever Christ the King of his Church had ever given such a law unto his people that they should admit of none into his house without the consent of all their fellow servants, and where he did resign his authority and put it into the people's hands, and commanded them that they should take a charge of his family upon them as having an interest in it: and where Christ did ever by any law or statute make his people servants to each other, as that they should take a charge over them & have an interest in them to judge them at pleasure; all this I looked for at I. S. his hands, and that now he should have fully informed me in it; especially when we have a command from Christ our King to the contrary I desire to go on warily 1 Cor. 7. 23. who saith to all his servants and subjects by his Apostle, Ye are bought with a price, be not ye the servants of men: Now if we are not to be the servants of men, how then comes it to pass that the Independents make us not only servants but slaves and vassals to them? for what greater bondage and servitude can there be in the World then to be under the control of everyone his fellow servants? so that without their good likin • they can neither come in nor go out of their masters house, nor be admitted to do that service their master calls for at their hands, but if any one of their fellow servants shall except against him, he must be kept out of doors. I appeal here to the judgment of all men whether there were ever extant in the World such a generation of Lordly Gentlemen over God's heritage seen since mortality inhabited the earth; or that did ever more impudently domineer and Lord it over God's Clergyes then in this our age where every man makes himself a Lord and Judge over his brother who is purchased by Christ his King and made free by his Word; especially is not this a horrid insolency in any to take upon him to judge his brother, when there is a statute, law and a command laid upon him to the contrary? Rom. 14. 13. Let us not therefore (saith the Apostle) judge one another anymore, but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or occasion to fall in his brothers way, in the which Law & statute there are 2 observables.

The first is this, that no man should judge his brother anymore: and this statute is ratified by many other and from most warrantable and divine reason; the other statutes that confirm this are many in the same chapter with the reasons thereof: For saith the Apostle, What art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth ver. 4. therefore thou oughtest not to judge him, For to this end (saith he) ver. 9. Christ both died, rose again and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. Christ saith he is our Lord both by donation, by conquest, by purchase, by covenant, by fellowship with the son and with the Father, we were given unto him by God the Father, and he conquered all our enemies and led captivity captive, and vanquished the strong and armed man and disarmed him, and rescued all his servants out of his slavery, & he hath redeemed us by no less price then his precious blood, and we are his people also by covenant and by communion in his graces and resurrection and glory enjoying with him all felicity and everlasting happiness with an eternal Kingdom; therefore saith he in the 12. verse, Why dost thou judge thy brother, and why dost thou set at naught thy brother? we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Therefore judge not thy brother. And St. James saith, my brethren be not many Masters. And this I say is the first observable out of that text; that we ought not to judge one another anymore.

The second observable is that no man should put a stumbling block, or occasion of fall in his brothers way. Now I appeal unto any man, what greater stumbling block, or occasion to fall can be put in any man's way, then when men on their own heads impose a Law upon their brethren that Christ our King never gave to his people, or what greater scandal and offense can be given to a poor servant of Jesus Christ his King, then to be thrust out of their Masters doors, or to be kept out of their Masters house, and to be judged at the will and pleasure of his fellow servants, whether he be fit to come into his Maastars family or not; if this be not to judge his brother, if this be not a scandal; yea, if this be not an intolerable tyranny, there was never any either judgment, scandal or tyranny in the world, nor greater rebellion and contumacy against the King of his Church, and against his subjects▪ servants, and redeemed ones: and therefore if the Pope and Prelates were so much abominated and abhorred of all men for their usurpation over God's heritage and clergies, how much ought such squanderling fellows as this I. S. and his complices be abominated, who thus take upon them to discern into the very secrets of their brethren's hearts, and to judge them fit or not fit to be received into Church fellowship, and into the communion of Saints, and according to their conceit and opinion, so to bring in their verdict of admission or non-admission, when Christ our Lord and King says, judge not lest ye be judgod, Matth. 3. and bids all men that are heavy laden to come unto him, Matth. 11. and saith, John the 6. v. 37. Him that comethunto me I will in no way cast out.

Here the Lord the King of his Church gives free admittance to all his subjects and servants to come into his Kingdom and house; but here is my Lord Taps his Chaplain and his associates, and they all take upon them this power and authority, that except it be by their good leave & liking, they shall not be admitted into the house of God; for they have a charge over that house, and an interest also; these are I. S. his own expressions.

Now I do here again appeal to any that have but any ordinary understanding, whether there was ever such a supercilious brood of creatures in the world before these Ill-dependents were hatched that can thus trample all the Laws of Christ under their polluted feet, and yet pretend they only set him up upon his Throne, when notwithstanding it is apparently evident, they practice the contrary, and violate all his most holy Statutes, and prefer their own traditions before his commandments, as this is one of judging their Brethren, and not admitting of them into Christ's Church and house, without the consent of the whole Church, when Christ nevertheless hath enacted so many Laws to the contrary.

And this shall suffice to have spake in way of answer to what I. S. had to say to my third query; the fourth follows concerning the covenant, whether necessary to admission? To which my brother Burton thus replies, page 14. Now (saith he) the very name of a Covenant is become a bug-bear to many, and tells us moreover what he hath said concerning their covenant in his vindication (that learned piece of stuff, such another as his Truth shut of doors) and his Protestation protested, and then he makes a brief Description of their covenant to no purpose, and then concludes, that it is not the name of Covenant that is so terrible, but the order of Church-communion; and this is to those only, that having usod to walk without a yoke, as the Scripture calls sons of Belial, love not to come under the yoke of Christ, then which to a willing bearer nothing is more easy and sweet. I expected from my Brother Burton especially, who talks so much of setting up Christ upon his Throne, as he counts all men enemies of Jesus Christ, and Converts but in part, when they come not up close to the rule of Reformation, God's Word; for thus my brother speaks, page 18. I say I expected from him, that he should have ratified their practice, in admitting of their Members by a particular explicit covenant from the Word of God, and from either some command, or some example, both which when this their practice wanteth, it cannot be of faith, and therefore is sinful.

But I desire the Reader to observe some particulars in my brother Burtons expressions, not to show the vanity, sin and uncharitableness of them all, for that would require a tractate by it self. But first; I pray observe, the very name (saith he) of a covenant is become a Bug-bear to many, that is to say a terror again a few lines, after he saith, that it is not the name of a covenant that is so terrible, but the order of Church-communion. Here I leave my Brother Burton to reconcile his own contradiction, the very name of a Covenant (saith he) is a Bug-bear, and it is not the name of a covenant that is so terrible.

Secondly, he acknowledges that this covenant is a yoke, and so it is indeed; but withal it is worthy of observation, he calls it Christ's yoke, and yet it was never imposed upon the people of God by Christ's command, nor was it appointed by him: so that whatsoever they bring into the church upon their own brains they impose it upon the people as one of God's Ordinances, which is an insufferable insolency in these men.

Thirdly, my Brother Burton accounteth of all such as will not submit it themselves to their government, and go in their church way to receive or take their covenant, to be the sons of Belial, and not under Christ's yoke; these are his words, page 14. Thus charitably the Independents think of all the Presbyterians their Brethren, because forsooth we will not enter into their covenant, which notwithstanding they can neither give us either Precept or President for ou • of the whole Word of God, they account us the sons of Belial. Now we are taught, that whatsoever is not of faith is sin, and whatsoever is not grounded upon God's Word, all men know is not of faith, which when their Church practiseth without it, it is most apparent that they are in a sinful way, and therefore are rather the sons of Belial then we. But learned I. S. page 18. whiles he goes about to defend the covenant, says enough utterly to overthrow it.

The fourth query (saith he) of an explicit covenant, whether necessary to admission.

Answ. I know not (saith he) why it should be more incovenient then a public national Covenant. But necessary (saith he) we hold it not; all the world may see that I. S. is but a novice in the Independent Principles: yea, that he is a very catechumenos: For all those that are anything acquainted in the Independents Principles, hold this explicit covenant to be the form of the church, without the which the church cannot be a church, nor without the taking of the which, there can be no admittance into church-fellowship with them; yea, my Brother Burton calls it Christ's yoke, and proclaims all those that will not wear it to be the sons of Belial. So that these men do not agree amongst themselves, the one party of them holding the particular covenant absolutely necessary, the other saying, but necessary we hold it not. So then by I. S. his own confession, who speaks in the name of all his party, it is none of God's Ordinances, for all God's Ordinances are necessary in their season, and whosoever should contemn or slight the least of them sinneth greatly. But whereas I. S. saith, that he knoweth not why a particular explicit covenant should be more inconvenient then a public national covenant, I affirm this is fondly spake of I. S. For we have divers Presidents and examples in holy Scripture and precepts for entering into public covenants, and we have read of the benefit that hath from them redounded to the whole nation & country by them for encouragement to all men, upon just occasions to enter into some solemn covenant with our God: but we have neither precept nor example in all God's Word of an explicit particular covenant taken in any church; and therefore it must needs be inconvenient as not being of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is inconvenient; yea, very hurtful to him that doth anything in God's matters without it; for it is sin to him, and will bring down punishment upon him for it. But for I. S. I will say no more to him about this point, who I find to be a very catechumenos in the principles of Independency, when notwithstanding he promised me he would teach and instruct me in the Independent way.

But I will now examine the Reason that the Author of the Book called Truth gloriously appearing from under the sad and sable Cloud of Obloquy, giveth for this their covenant. He Page 126 labors to prove their particular explicit covenant out of that place, Acts the 9. verse 16. Where when Paul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself with the Disciples. Now saith he, the word join in the original 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 signifies to join by Covenant, and intimates such a joining of Paul to the Church, as the joining of a man to his wife: For in Matthew (saith he) the same word is used, Matth. 19. 5. For this cause (saith our Savior) shall a man leave father and mother, and 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 shall cleave to his wife. Now (saith he) we know that a man cleaves to his wife by a covenant, and therefore why not so to the Church? If he had said, why not so, unto Christ, he had said something to the purpose; for we are married only unto Christ, and not to the Church, knowing that the Church is Christ's Spouse, and Christ is the Churches Husband; and we are married unto Christ, and not to the Church and one to another; neither did any Christian yet ever deny, but that all those that would be joined unto Christ, and so be received into his house and family, and be subjects of his Kingdom, they must take the oath of Allegeance unto their King Christ, and therefore must enter into his house, which is his Church, by the covenant of Baptism; this I say all men accord unto, when men are first admitted into the Church: And this covenant, I say, all that will be Christ's Disciples, and of his Kingdom and Family, must take before they can be admitted. But that they should after they are baptized, enter into another particular explicit covenant, and by that bind themselves to the Church; I affirm, there is neither precept nor president for it in all the holy Scripture, either of the old or New Testament; neither is there any such mystery in the Greek word 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 as to employ so much; for we know the same word is used in the eighth Chapter of the Acts, verse 29. Where the Spirit said to Philip, go near and join thyself to this Chariot. Where the word join in the original is 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 by the which word, Philip did not understand that he must join himself to the Eunuchs chariot by a particular explicit covenant. No more ought any wise man to conceive, that when Paul assayed to join himself to the Disciples, that by that he would have taken a particular explicit covenant of Church fellowship: This is nothing else but to beg the question, and to amuse the simple, and to deceive them by taintering the words of Scripture, and stretching them beyong their native signification, to make them fit for their occasions, that they may juggle the better to delude the poor people, which is a great wickedness in these men thus to trisle about words, till they loose the Truth, which is the substance to the destroying of their poor souls. The truth is, that word is often used in the holy Scripture, and is used metaphorically as being taken from Joyners and crafts men, that join many things together by Glew: And • o ordinary discourse it intimates a close joining, whether natural as a branch to the Vine, or an arm to the Body, or artificial, as when two sticks are joined to become one in Ezekiel's hand, Ezek. 37. As when Masons join stones together, or Carpenters timber to make a house. But that this word join should always employ a particular explicit covenant to any Church or Congregation, when any man takes on him a new relation to it and is made a member of it: I affirm, there is not one example of it in all the Word of God; and as for any command, that every member of a Church should do it, there is none: And therefore, it is a mere Will-worship, and one of their own Traditions, and ought to be abandoned of all Christ's Disciples, and with so much the more detestation, because they make it one of God's Ordinances, and part of his Service and Worship, and the very form of a Church, whereas it is a batch of their own leaven, by which they have of late much soured the Truth. But as I said before, so I say now again, that Christians are to swear fealty only to their King and Lord Christ Jesus, who is their husband, and who is the only Master of his own House and Church, and whose voice is only to be heard, and whose Laws are only to be obeyed and listened unto; & we swear no allegiance or fealty to the Church, for we are all his servants & domestics, and have no authority one over another, to impose Laws upon each other, or to enter in to any covenants amongst ourselves, without a special command from Christ: And as when Stewards of Princes or Noblemen, take any in to their masters families, they swear them only to their lords and masters; we never hear that the servants enter into any covenant among themselves, or join or unite themselves in covenant one to cleave unto another: Such proceedings amongst servants would never be allowed or tolerated amongst men, it would be thought rather a conspiracy or a confederation to do mischief, if they should attempt such a thing. As when those men enterd in to a covenant amongst themselves, that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul; yea, it hath ever been observed in all countries, That when servants began once to combine together, and to join themselves by secret covenants, they have always plotted mischief, and therefore there hath been special care used to prevent such conspiracies. And all men may well perceive by this their covenanting in their new gathered Churches, what it tends to, if God of his infinite goodness prevents not their design: Therefore, I say, we being Christ's domestics and his Church, and being his house, and he being the only Lord of it, and our King, we are to smite our covenant only with him, and to swear fealty and obedience to him only, and his Laws, and we are not to be the servants of men, 1 Cor. 7. And therefore the Lord saith in Malachi the first, If I be a father, where is my reverence; if I be a Lord, where is my honor? How is it that ye obey me not? We are only therefore to obey his voice, and not to regard the traditions of men, or to serve God after the commandments of men: Now then, when the Independents impose this their covenant upon the people as a part of God's worship, and will not admit of any into their new Churches, without entering in to this conspiracy; I say, by all their proceedings in as much as in them lies, they dis-throne Christ in preferring their own laws before his; wherein they commit a detestable wickedness. And this sh • ll serve to have spake concerning the fourth query. And now I come to the fifth, of women's votes, whether they are to be admitted in elections? To which my Brother Burton thus replies, Page 15. We (saith he) tie not the keys to women's girdles. And I. S. page 19. But as for this of women's voting in the Church (saith he) we have no such custom, nor any of the Churches of God that I know. Thus he.

For answer to both, my Brother Burton and I. S. I say thus much, That they cannot be ignorant of the practice of the Churches, in many of which, and those the principalest and the choicest ones, to my knowledge the women had their voices both for the receiving in of members, and for the casting of them out upon any scandal; so that there were none admitted, either men or women, though of never so great rank and quality, without the leave and good liking of the women; so that if at any time they opposed the entrance of any, though it were but upon mere jealousies that they were not godly, they could not be admitted members of those Congregations: But it seems they are now ashamed of this their practice, and therefore plead ignorance in the business. But that the world may see I write nothing in my first Book concerning women's voting of it in Churches, I shall recite some two or three stories, omitting many to prove their practices in those days. And what I shall relate, and much more I undertake to prove by sufficient witnesses whensoever the Independents shall put me upon it. And withal I shall make it appear, there was never greater juggling then hath been amongst those of the Congregational-way, in admitting of members.

The stories briefly are these: A Gentlewoman of my acquaintance coming up to London, since these New Lights broke out, was so infatuated with them, that she had a great desire to join her self to one of the prime Churches of the congregational way, concerning the which Gentlewoman I can say thus much upon my own experience, and it can be proved by many, that whatsoever she is now, before she became an Independent, she was a woman not only of an emaculate life and conversation, but a woman of singular piety and charity towards all to her ability, and who ordinarily twice or thrice a week was wont to set days apart in private to seek God, and to humble her self by fasting and prayer, and this was her constant course of life. Yet this woman assaying to join her self unto these new disciples, and being to make the confession of her faith before the congregation, and to bring in the evidences of her conversion, she not having had many months acquaintance with them, and having not walked with them above half a year, or there-abouts, was forced the better to make the Church understand the work of grace wrought in her heart, to recite unto them her course of life, how she had constantly walked with God, and what communion she had with him, signifying with all that she had ever loved the Saints and brethren, a sufficient token of conversion, and of being one of Christ's disciples, if either Christ's own testimony or Saint John's may be believed. Yet when she had made an end of her confession of her faith, and produced her evidences, a Wench rose up in the Congregation, and professed before them all that she was not satisfied with her evidences that she was a believer, for as much as the Pharisees for all outward performances could say as much as she did, or used words to this effect. Upon which the Church could not admit her, for the sister was not satisfied: So that the Gentlewoman since joined her self to another Congregation.

An other president is of a young man, reputed amongst his neighbors very godly, who being much enamored with the new way of Church-fellowship, assayed to join himself to one of their congregations, not that I spake of before, and being to make his confession, and to bring in his evidences, and having to satisfy the Church, done as much as they enjoined him to do, two of the women in that Assembly opposed his admission; so that without their good liking he could not be admitted a Member, and he applying himself unto their Pastor, and to the Elders gave many signs of his true conversion, so that they related unto him that for their parts they had nothing to say to him in way of opposition, but wisht him to apply himself to those sisters, telling him, that without their consent they could not admit him into Church-fellowship, whereupon he makes his addresses to them, and sometimes he courted them for their favor, sometime he expostulated with them, desiring to know their reasons why they were so adverse to him, and would not grant their consents, demanding of them if they knew anything by his conversation, and they replied, no, but they could not believe he was godly and sanctified, and fit for Church fellowship; and whether or no he was ever admitted in that Congregation, I know not; but at that time he could not be admitted, and for no other reason that can be given, but that the sisters did not give their consents, and they could allege no other ground of their not agreeing to his admission, but that they conceived he was not godly.

The third Story is of one that was reputed a very honest and godly man amongst all his acquaintance, and who had also walked sometime amongst them in one of their new congregations, and earnestly desired to be admitted a joined Member, and he bringing in his evidences, and making the confession of his faith, satisfactory enough to many of the Church, for the proving of himself fit for Member-ship, a married woman rose up in the congregation, and professed before them all she could not believe he was fit tobe admitted as a Member of that church, and used some trivial reasons, for her not assenting to his admssion, and for that time he could not be received into the congregation, having not given the good sister plenary satisfaction; and whether he be yet received into church-fellowship, I know not, but that he was by the woman at that time put off, that I shall be able to prove, with the other two Stories, and be able likewise to produce many such Presidents more. Now I refer this to any understanding man's judgment, whether the Keys in many of the new gathered churches be not tied unto the women's Girdles, and whether my Brother Burton and I. S. are always to be credited, either in their denials or affirmations.

And this shall suffice to have spake of the fifth query. And now I come to the sixth and last query, viz. Whether the practicing and preaching of all these things, &c. be to set up Christ as King upon his Throne? to the which query my Brother Burton, and I. S. answer as two Jugglers, nothing to the purpose. My Brother Burtons words are these, page 19 Those Churches (saith he) that are for matter and form true Churches, and are governed according to Christ's Word, do set up Christ as King upon his Throne: and for such as are otherwise, let them consider whether they do as they ought, set up Christ as King upon his Throne.

This is my Brother Burtons answer to my sixth query. Now whether this be a direct answer to my query, I leave it to the judgment of the Learned. But from this his answer I may boldly conclude, that their new congregations do not set up Christ as King upon his Throne, they failing both for the matter and form of true churches, and being not governed according to the Word of God; all which I have sufficiently proved in my foregoing Discourse. As for J. S. he answers nothing to the question, as all that shall read his words may well perceive, which are these. I answer, (saith he) no question but the purging and purifying of Church Ordinances and Fellowship, which some contend for, is to set Christ upon a higher Throne visible to the world, then by some other ways he is, &c. Now w hither this be a satisfactory answer to the query, I leave it to others to judge of, but from his words I thus argue; Where Christ's Ordinances and Church-fellowship are polluted, there Christ is not set up upon his Throne; but in all the new congregations Christ's Ordinances are polluted, and Church-fellowship contaminated, as I have sufficiently proved; Ergo, Christ is not set up there on his Throne. And this shall suffice to have spake by way of answer to all they had to say to my queries.

But now I shall set down God's method, and the Apostles practice in gathering of churches, and the manner they used in making Members in every Church, and compare it with the method our brethren the Independents use in gathering of their congregations, that all men may the better discern truth from error, and may all be undeceived in this business of so great concernment. And I will first begin with Christ's Commission given to his Apostles, and in them to all Ministers, and then consider the practice of John the Baptist, and of all the Apostles and Ministers in the Primitive Church and the order that God himself used for the gathering of those that belong unto his election, and for the congregating of the lost sheep of the house of Israel into the fold of Jesus Christ, who is that great Shepherd and Bishop of our souls; and I conceive that God's order and the Apostles practice is rather to be followed then any other new found way.

But to begin with Christ's Commission to his Apostles, Matth. 21. verse 19, 20. Go ye therefore, saith Christ, and teach all Nations, baptizing them, In the Name of the Father, Son and holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I command you; and lo! I am with you even to the end of the World, Amen. And in the 16. of Mark verse 15, 16. He saith unto them, Go ye into all the World, and preach the Gospel unto every creature: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned. And in the 26. of the Acts, Saint Paul after he had declared the manner of his conversion to King