The Utter Routing of the Whole Army of All the Independents and Sectaries

and afterwards the Christian church, had Elders, without whose counsel nothing was done in the church, which, by what neglect it grew out of use, I knew not, unless it were perhaps the sloth or rather pride of the teachers, whilst alone they would seem to be somebody. However it is acknowledged by their own testimony, that in the Apostles time and many years after the Apostles, nothing was done in the church without the Council of the Presbyters.

So that it is evident the Primitive churches were governed by the joint and common council of the Presbytery, and the people had nothing to do with it. We may add here unto Saint Ambrose, Saint Jerome's testimony, who in his Commentaries upon the first chapter of the Epistle of Paul to Titus, largely declaring himself (as in many other places) concerning the occasion of the change of that government established by the Apostles, saith, Idem est ergo Presbyter qui & Episcopus & antequam, diaboli instino • u, studia in religione fi • r • nt, & diceretur in populis, ego sum Pauli, ego Apollo, ego autem Cephe, communt Presbyterorum consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur, &c. In the which words he acknowledgeth by the first institution, all Churches were governed by the common council of the Presbyters, and not by the advice of the people. Yea the very Canons of the Pope in the first part, and the 95. distinction, giving the reason why the Presbyterian Government came to be changed, and the Hierarchiall was put in the place; affirmeth, that it was through faction, and for the avoiding of further Schisms and rents in the Church and cities, using the very words before quoted out of Saint Jerome, and confesseth that before that time, the Churches were governed Commum consilio Presbyterorum, not by the people or any one Prelate, but by the Presbytery and their council. And if human authority were needful in this business, I might make a volume with their very expressions, to prove the novelty of the Hierarchical government, and that of the people's jurisdiction assuming the Authority of governing into their hands, and the Antiquity of the Presbytery, and that by the enemies own confession. Bet I am resolved to cleave only unto the Word, and sound reason deduced from thence, for the deciding of this controversy, being sorry that there was so much as occasion of naming human authority in a point of Divinity.

As for the Presbyterian government, in the sense that I understand it, there is nothing more clear to me in all the holy Scripture, Yea the very word and name of a Presbytery signifieth a Magistracy, or Aristocracy, or Signory, or Court; that is, a Company, or Senate, or Council of grave wise, and understanding men, invested with authority and power of ruling, ordering, and commanding, and in whose hands the government is put. And as the word is taken in the civil polity and Government, so in the Ecclesiastical; By a Presbytery we understand, a Religious, Grave, Solid, Learned, and wise council of Divines and Ministers, or men of inveterate experience; and such as know how to Rule and Govern those that are under their command, with wisdom and moderation, and according to the Word of God; and the which men likewise are invested with Authority and Power for to exercise a jurisdiction over others, and are hereunto called by such as are able to judge and discern of the sufficiency of their gifts and abilities for this work, which the ordinary and common people cannot do. And as in the civil State, the Presbyters and Elders of the people, were those that had the rule over them for the common good of them all and for their bodily preservation; So the Presbyters and Elders in the Church are those that have the rule and government over the Churches for the spiritual good of their souls. And as Kings and Rulers are by a Metaphoricall and borrowed speech called Pastors and Sheepherds of the people, and are said to feed the flocks committed to their charge, by which word is understoode the exercise of all lawful and moderate authority agreeable to the Law of God over them; so the Presbyters and Ministers are called the Pastors and Sheepherds, yea, and Stewards over the flocks committed to their charges, and they are commanded to feed them; by which metaphor they are invested with the authority and power both of preaching and ruling, and have the Government over those flocks put into their hands, which they must always exercise according to God's Word; they must feed them and rule them in the Lord, and not after their own wills and pleasures, they may not have dominion over our faith, as Paul saith in the 2. of the Corinthians; chap. 1. verse 24. But that they should be helpers of our joy; that is, they may not usurp an absolute Sovereignty or power over the consciences of the people, as if the spiritual state and welfare of their flocks depended on them, which is only grounded upon their faith in Jesus Christ; but as they are the Stewards of God, and Ministers and servants of the Church, so they should comfort them and rejoice their hearts in the Lord, and establish them in the faith; and use all the care and diligence that is possible, like good Shepherds, to preserve the flocks committed to their charge, that they straggle and stray not from Christ's fold, and run not into the by-ways and thickets of sin and error, and be corrupted with noisome food, and false Doctrine: And if they have any among them that are unruly, that they bring and reduce them into order: or if they have any sick, feeble, poor or weak, that they cure, relieve, comfort, and restore such: and if they have any that are infected or scabby, that they remove such from the sound, till they be recovered: or if they have any broken or wounded, that they heal and recover them with all lenity and humanity; and that they should by common▪council govern and order their flocks, and take special care that the particular Pastors and Ministers of the several Congregations and Assemblies under their Presbytery and charge, assume not any sole and sovereign Authority to themselves over the flock, to do anything of public concernment, without the joint consent of that Presbytery or spiritual Corporation, under whose commands they are. And it stands with all reason, that a Common council, of godly, grave, learned, and experienced ministers, should ever be more able to manage and order a government, then two or three inexperienced men, or two or three hundred young people, of which most Congregations consist, in whom the sap of youth is not yet dried up; or if many of them should be of riper years, yet they know little what belongs to government, and therefore they can never be so well able to govern, as men both of known learning, ancient experience, and honesty, and approved judgment and integrity, as a whole College or an Assembly of learned Presbyters commonly are; who by God himself have the dispensation of the Word and the ordering and ruling of the Church committed unto them, and who in the Preaching of the Word, and the administration of the Sacraments, and in all ordinary acts of worship, and in governing and ruling the flocks committed to their several charges, are the successors of the holy Apostles.

But by the way, an objection is here to be answered unto, made by some of the Independents after this manner.

The Elders and Presbyters of the Apostles times, say they, by the imposition of their hands, gave the gift of tongues and prophesy, Acts 19. 1, 2, 3, 4 5. and the 8. 18 and 1 Tim. 4. 14. and healed the sick James 5. 14, 15. according to our Savior's promise Mark. 16. 18. Let, say they, the Presbyters of our time, let them impose their hands upon the sick and heal them, let them by imposing hands upon their disciples enable them on a sudden to speak with strange tongues, and foretell things to come; and then we will acknowledge them for a true Presbytery, then will they be a right assembly of Elders, and the Apostles successors; but, if they cannot give to others, nor yet have for themselves in store, any of the true Apostles, any of the right Presbyters gifts and characters, we may not, we dare not acknowledge them as such.

These are their formal words in print. Before I come to my answer, I desire there may be special notice taken of this Objection, and such like; for, for ought that I know, if any man will argue afthis manner, all Christian religion may be called in question, and no man will have any Creed or Belief, except he may make his own Articles, as Thomas did, who said, Unless I put my hands into his side and my fingers into the print of the nails, I will not believe. And as the Jews said unto our blessed Savior, Thou that savedst others, now save thyself, come down from the Cross and then we will believe in thee, do this miracle and then thou wilt persuade us. Here we see, they would make their own Articles, or else they would have no Creed. The Jews had learned this method of disputing from the Devil, who at his meeting of our Savior Christ, and at his first assault, thus disputed, If thou be the Son of God, saith he, and wouldest have the world so believe, and me too, on thee, then command these stones to be made bread, do this miracle first; but thou canst not do it, Ergo. So in like manner these men argue, except, say they, the Presbyters by the imposition of their hands upon their Disciples, can enable them on a sudden to speak with strange tongues, to foretell things to come, and heal the sick, &c. we will not acknowledge them to be true Elders: but let them do all these things by the imposition of their hands, and then we will acknowledge them for a true Presbytery. See the vanity of these men, and the instability of their faith, by their own confession; miracles will make them believe anything, if we may credit their own words, though never so contrary to their judgment and to the faith once delivered to the Saints. It is well known to the Learned, that the Apostles and those Primitive Christians had extraordinary and wonderful gifts, that ravished the world then into admiration; and it is confessed also by all understanding Christians, that those wonder-working miracles were but temporary, as the miraculous feeding of the people with Manna in the Wilderness, where they were fellow-commoners with the Angels, and continued but till they came into the Land that flowed with Milk and Honey. So those miracles of the Primitive Christians continued but for a time, till the Gospel and the truth of the Christian faith and doctrine was confirmed and established, which being once done, and the holy Scriptures which were to be the rule of faith to the end of the world being left to posterity, and to which we are tied and commanded not to be wise above that which is written, 1 Cor. 4. 6. and forbid in Gal. 1. 8, 9. to believe otherwise then we have been taught, though the Apostles or an Angel from heaven should teach otherwise; after, I say, the Doctrine of the Christian Faith and Religion was confirmed, the ordinary working of Miracles ceased. And it is said of Antichrist in 2 Thess. chap. 2. That he shall come with strong delusions and lying wonders, and with all deceiveableness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. So that I cannot sufficiently wonder, to see the dealing of these men, who in these days expect and look for miracles to confirm their faith, when notwithstanding we are forwarned to take heed of all false delusions, and commanded to the contrary. Shew us some miracles, say they, and then we will believe you are true Presbyters. So dealt the Jews with Christ, What sign showest thou that we may believe in thee? But when Christ had shown them sign upon sign, and miracle upon miracle, were they ever the more convinced? Did those miracles create belief in them? No surely, but rather hardened them and made them blaspheme. When he cast out Devils, they say he did it by the Prince of Devils. So without doubt, if the Presbyters had those gifts of miracles, that they could gratify these men with daily prodigies and works of wonder, they would then say, they came with lying wonders, and with the working of Satan, and they would make the world abhor them the more. There is an old saying, that he must rise early and never go to bed, that will please all men: and truly it would be not only difficult, but an impossible thing, for any State or great Council, were it never so wise, to please all the people under them. God himself, nor Moses, nor Aaron his servants, could please the Israelites though they saw never such wonders continually before their eyes, to confirm their authority; yea they told Moses and Aaron to their faces, that they took too much upon them. And afterwards they cast off God's own government & God himself, as the Lord complains to Samuel, in 1 Samuel, and would set up a government after the model of their own brain, as it is at large set down in that Book. And not long after they changed the manner of God's worship, in Jereboam's time, and taught the fear of God, as the Lord complaineth, Isaiah 29. after the precepts of men, and rejected God's commandments, as Christ saith, Matth. 15. and Mark 7. So that what they thought best in their own eyes, that was ever best pleasing unto them. They would not content themselves with the Written Word, though they were never so often by Moses, and all the rest of the Prophets, commanded to cleave unto it, saying, to the Law and to the Testimony, Isaiah 8. Even so it is now in these days, they content not themselves with that Ordinance that is set down in the Written Word, but say, Come show us some miracles, and then we will believe you are a right Presbyterie. Our Savior speaking to the Jews concerning Saint John the Baptist and Himself, John, saith he, came neither eating nor drinking, and ye say behold he hath a Devil; the Son of Man came both eating and drinking, and ye say, he is a Wine-bibber, a friend of Publicans and Sinners. So that whatsoever method or way God used to convert them, they cavil'd against it, and were never satisfied; always resisting the Spirit of God, as Stephen told them in Act. 7.

So now, in these our times they look for miracles, and a new way of teaching. But all good Christians are forbid to listen after, or to give heed to miracles: and are sent unto Moses and the Prophets, Luke 16. and are commanded to search the Scripture, John 5. Yea our Savior himself in the person of Abraham, Luke 16. saith, That if men will not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded by miracles: and I am confident, that could the Presbyters do all those miracles these men desire, they would the more reproach them, and exclaim against them, and affirm they wrought by the Devil, as the Jews told our Savior he did. I must confess, I am of a contrary opinion to these men, not only in the matter of miracles, but in all external performances; for I am instructed in the holy scriptures, that the Devil can transform himself into an Angel of light, and that the Deceivers and false Teachers shall come forth in sheep's clothing, and for outward appearance shalequalize, if not exceed, the faithfullest & truest Pastors and Ministers of Christ; and therefore we are in special, commanded to take heed of such: and for my particular, if any men whatsoever of never such seeming sanctity, sufficient abilities, unblameable life, should come forth and teach any other Doctrine of Faith, Manners, or Government, then that I have been taught in the holy Scripture; and should confirm this their Doctrine with never so many miracles, I will still continue steadfast in the Doctrine of the Apostles, and cleave unto the written Word, and will never believe contrary to that, though I should undergo the greatest misery, or be exposed to the greatest want by it, that any man ever saw: for I know that all these momentary trials and afflictions are not worthy that exceeding weight of glory that shall be revealed. And for this very point of the Presbytery, in that sense I take it, I am so well assured that it is God's Ordinance, as I am of any point in Religion. But as I said before, if men may argue after this way. The Presbyters in the Apostles times did miracles, and s • ache with strange tongues, and their Scholars and Disciples did the same; do you likewise, and then we will acknowledge you to be true Presbyters, otherwise we will not. Thus the Jews might have argued against all their Prophets, as against Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, &c. Moses and Elias fasted forty days and forty nights, and did many miracles, do you so, and then we will believe you are true Prophets, and sent to us of God, otherwise we will not believe you to be true Prophets. Yea all the wicked and ungodly men of these times may argue thus also: God gave unto his Church Apostles, Evangelists, Prophets, &c. and they spake all strange tongues and divers languages, and did many miracles; but you and your Congregations, have neither Apostles, Prophets, nor Evangelists, nor ye have not the gifts of Tongues, nor ye can do no Miracle: Ergo, you are not the true Church. The Primitive Christians and the servants of God in those times, had the gifts of Tongues and Prophesy, and the holy Ghost came down upon them, and they spake by direction from God his infallible truth and Gospel, whose speeches were not tied to time, and to one speaker, but many spake one after another by Interpreters, as it is at large set down in the 1. of the Corinthians, chap. 14. verse. 27. 28, 29, 30. &c. So that they spake infallible truth by direction from God: But you have none in your Congregations so miraculously inspired with sundry languages, and divers tongues, nor ye do not speak infallible truths by direction from God; nor you cannot cure diseases nor do miracles: Ergo, your religion is not the same Religion; nor your Congregations the true Church: show us these miracles and then we will believe you to be the true Church, otherwise we may not, we dare not acknowledge you to be the true Church.

Again they may argue thus: The Apostles and Primitive Pastors, and Teachers preached freely, and labored with their own hands, and were helpful to the necessities of others, and were not burthensome and exacting from others, and spake ex tempore, by direction from God: but your Ministers in your Congregations do not preach freely, nor labor not with their own hands, nor are not helpful to to others necessities, but are rather burdensome and exacting from others; nor they do no miracles, nor speak not immediately by inspiration, and ex tempore; but by Study and out of their Books, and are confined to time, and speak not in strange tongues and languages, one after another by Interpreters. Ergo, Your Ministers are not God's Ministers, nor your Congregations the true Church, nor your people true Christians; for you want all those things that the Primitive Christians and the Primitive Churches had.

There is a Pamphlet lately come out, and highly esteemed and prised amongst many, full of such consequences as these, which if they hold good against the Presbyters, they may also for ought I know, be of equal validity to overthrow, not only all Christian Congregations, but indeed all Christian Religion. But briefly to answer.

We look upon the Apostles and Primitive Presbyters, as men miraculously and extraordinarily gifted, and as wonder-working men for the confirmation of the truth of the Gospel to all succeeding ages; and we consider in them and in the Christians of those times, something extraordinary and temporary, as their working of miracles, and speaking of strange tongues, and gifts of healing, &c. And those we conceive were to continue no longer in the church, then for the confirmation of the truth of the Gospel; Christ himself proclaiming those blessed, that believe without seeing of miracles, speaking unto Thomas, John 20. 29. Because thou hast seen me, saith he, thou believest, blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed. So that miracles now are not ordinary, and we are tied to the written Word. But we consider likewise in the Apostles and Primitive Presbyters, that that was permanent and to continue in all Ministers and Presbyters in succeeding ages to the end of the world, and that was the power of order and preaching, and the power of jurisdiction, that is of ruling (which is not denied by the most learned of the Independents themselves) and this I have proved by the Word of God, to be transacted over to all Christian Churches, whose Presbyters have that power given unto them; neither will the Learned Brethren deny it, whatsoever the ignorant may do. Yea, the very name of a Presbytery (as I said before) if we look through the whole Scripture, signifieth a Magistracy, or Signiory, or Corporation invested with authority of governing and ruling; and such a counsel and company of men, as upon whom the government under Christ is laid, and to be extended so far, as their jurisdiction extendeth, and as far as by common consent it may make for the good and edification of the church, and for the safety of the same. And such was the government of all those churches of the New Testament, which were as so many Committees, their limits and bounds prefixed them, as at this dayall Committees through the Kingdom have in their several Hundreds, Rapes, Wapentakes, and Cities, to whom the ordering and government of those places that are under them, are committed; so that all that is done or transacted, must be done by the joint consent, and council of the whole Committee, not any particular man or any two of them severally considered by themselves, can make an order; but that order only is binding which is made by the joint consent and common agreement of them all, or the greatest part of them assembled together. Even so all those particular Congregations that are within the compass and jurisdiction of the several Presbyteries, are to be ordered and governed by the common and joint council of the several Presbyters, or the greater part of them. For this was the order the Apostles established, appointing in every City a Presbytery; and when they had so ordered the Churches, they set them all to their several employments, the Presbyters to command, and all the people and particular Assemblies and Congregations under them, to obey; neither is it ever found in the holy Scriptures, that the people were joined with the Presbyters in their Commission. So that they that oppose this government, resist God's Ordinance. And if we look into all the Epistles writ by the Apostles to the several Churches, we shall find in them, That they enjoin all the several Congregations to yield obedience to their Pastors and Rulers over them, and signify unto them that they owe unto them double honor, especially such as labor in the Word and Doctrine; that is, they must yield unto them, not only due reverence and subjection, and obedience to their council and just commands in the Lord; but that they should also afford them the honor of maintenance, and take order there be a sufficient and competent, yea, an honorable allowance for their support; and that as they minister to them spiritual food for their souls, they should likewise minister unto them all things necessary for the maintenance of them and their Families, that they may comfortably and without solicitous care, follow their holy employments and wait upon their several Ministries. So that the place and employment of the Presbyters, is to teach and rule the people; and this is their proper work, and peculiarly belongs unto them; and the employment and place of the several congregations under them, is to hear and obey: and therefore if the several congregations do assume unto themselves the power of ruling, they take more upon them then by God is allowed them: and the Presbyters in yielding unto it, reject their own right, and devest themselves of that authority that God hath put into their hands; and by so doing in time may not only bring confusion into the Church, but to all those Countries where such usurpations are tolerated. I cannot but speak my conscience in this point: And truly, very reason dictates unto a man, that they only should have the authority of commanding and ruling over the Churches, to whom the power of the Keys is given. Now it is given only to the Ministers and Presbyters, as we see it in John 20. 21. and Matth. 18. 15, 16, 17, 18. Where our Savior Christ established a standing government, to be continued to the end of the World, the violating and the overthrowing of the which, was the cause of all those confusions, both in doctrine and manners that is now come upon the world; and was the cause, not only of the rise, but the growth of Antichrist. And the reducing of it again into the Church, and the re▪stablishing of it, will be the confusion of that Man of Sin, and of all the Antichristian-brood, and be a means of establishing truth and peace through the Christian world. But it will not be amiss a little to consider that place in Matth. 18. If thy Brother, saith Christ shall trespass against thee, go and tell him of it between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother; but if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses, every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them; then tell it unto the Church: but if he neglect to hear the Church, let him be to thee as a Heathen man and a Publican. Verily, verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. In these words our Savior Christ has respect unto the order and custom of judicature in those times in censuring men's manners and doctrines, which among the Jews was ordered and administered by an assembly and counsel of learned, experienced, and judicious men, and by a Presbytery, Consistory, or College of able men for government, chose and selected out of the people for this very purpose, by such as could judge and discern of their abilities: the which assembly and company, is by Christ himself called a Church, because it did represent the Church, and in this place Christ did establish the like to be continued in the Christian church to the end of the world, making his Apostles this representative body, and their successors all the godly and holy Ministers and Presbyters, and gives unto them the same power and Authority, to judge and determine of all things belonging unto faith and manners that was observed in the Jewish church, in all Ecclesiastical Discipline. For otherwise, the Christian church should be inferior to that of the Jews, if they had not the same Privileges for the censuring of manners and Doctrines, and the same power of jurisdiction and ruling that they had. Now all power of jurisdiction among the Jews, was exercised not by the promiscuous multitude, or by the whole congregation, nor by any particular man, nor by two or three (as the place above specifies) but by an Assembly, Senate, Council, or Presbytery, of understanding men assigned to that purpose, which our Savior himself calleth a Church; & this government established in the Christian church, are the several Presbyteries, where all things are transacted by common and joint consent: and this was the practice of the Apostles at Jerusalem, who did all business of public concernment, by common and joint consent, as is manifest, in the first chap. of the Acts, in choosing of an Apostle in Judas his place, and in the 5. chap. in censuring Annanias and Sapphira and in the 6. chap. in choosing Deacons, and in the 15. chapter in determining the question there in hand, all in a Presbyterian way and by common consent.

And this is that government, that God hath commanded to be perpetuated to the end of the world, in these words; Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So that the Presbyters only have the power of the keys, & it is their place only to ordain Ministers and Church Officers, (whatsoever Authority the people may exercise in the choosing of them) as Paul writes unto Timothy and Titus, and they only are to judge and determine and to censure in matters of manners and doctrine, and the people are to allow and approve it according to the Word of God. Yea the very Synagogues of the Jews, which were the same that our churches are, were governed by a Presbytery, (as our brethren acknowledge) called by the name of the Rulers of the Synagogue, who governed by joint and common council; as is evident and manifest, in that there were superior and inferior Judges▪ Commanders, and Rulers, according as their years, gravity and wisdom made them more emninent then others, and venerable to the people: as may appear in many places as Acts 18. ver. 8. It is said there, That Crispus the chief Ruler of the Synagogue believed with all his household. So that if there were a chief Ruler, or Judge, or a President; there must of necessity be a Council or Segniory of inferior ones, that had Rule and Authority over others as well as he: and where there is a chief Justice or Judge, there are other Judges joined with him, as all reason persuades, and there must needs be a Court of Judicature, where all things are transacted, by conjoynt and common consent and agreement: and so it was in the Synagogues of the Jews, who were subject to, and ordered by the determinations and abitrement of their Rulers and Governors. So that the several Churches or Synagogues under the Jews were in subjection to those Rulers, and were governed according as by common council they ordered. And Mat. the 5. verse. 22. And behold there came one of the Rulers of the Synagogue, whose name was Jairus▪ here was a special Ecce added to take notice, that a great man, and one in authority, came unto Christ, and that in a public way, and one of the Rulers of the Synagogue. So that we may observe the people in every Synagogue were governed and commanded by their Rulers, and they were to yield obedience unto them, and were not joined with them in Commission, but stood to their determination, as all men use to do in Courts of Judicature, that appeal unto them for justice. And this custom and manner of government was transacted over to the Christian Churches; and those that were called Rulers among them, are among Christians sometimes called Presbyters, sometimes Guides, sometimes Rulers, and by Christ himself and by his Apostles, are appointed over all Christian Churches as so many corporations; to which all the Assemblies and Congregations under them, and committed to their charge, are to yield obedience and submission, in whatsoever they command in the Lord, and according to his blessed Word; for that must be the rule both of their commanding and of the people's obeying. And this Presbyterian government, is that manner and way of ruling all Assemblies and particular Congregations under it, that God hath appointed in his Church, to be continued to the end of the world; the which whosoever resisteth, resisteth the Ordinance of God. And this shall suffice to have spoken in general, in way of proof, That all Churches we have mention of under the New Testament, were Aristocratically and Presbyterially governed, that is, were under the Government of a College or Assembly of Presbyters.

And now I come to prove in order the four Propositions or conclusions I undertook to make good. The first was, That there were many Congregations and several Assemblies in the Church of Jerusalem, in the which they had all acts of worship, and did partake in all Ordinances of Church-Fellowship; and that before the persecution we read of Act. 8. and under the persecution, and after the persecution. And for the proof of this Proposition, and every branch of it, I will first produce such places of Scripture as make for the manifestation of the truth, and from thence frame and form my Arguments, Mat. 3. ver. 1, 2. 5, 6. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, Repent ye, for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all • udaea and all the Region round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan confessing their sins. The Baptism of John, as all the learned know, was the same with that of the Apostles, for he preached the Baptism of Repentance for the Remission of sins, and Baptized all that came to him▪ into Jesus Christ, saying unto the people, That they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus, Act. 19. ver. 4. He had his Commission also from God as well as the Apostles, and Baptized Christ himself; he preached also the Gospel and the Kingdom of the Messiah as well as the Apostles; and had many honorable Testimonies from Christ himself; as, That he was the greatest Prophet that ever was borne of woman, and That he was a bright shining light, and That he was his witness; and many other Encomiums and praises did Christ give of him, to ratify his Authority, and to show that he was sent of God, and that he was that Elias that was to come before the Messiah: And all the people owned, and took him for a man sent of God, and Jerusalem went out to him, and all the Region round about, and were Baptized of him. In these words we find that the people of Jerusalem were all turned Christians, and made members of the Christian Church, and were believers. For which way soever the word Jerusalem be taken, it signifieth a numberless multitude of men, or an innumerable company.

For if we consider Jerusalem at this time, she was a most populous City: the Historians that write of that age, relate, That she had sometimes in her, no less then eleven or twelve hundred thousand; but let it be taken that these were but six hundred thousand inhabitants, it is a vast multitude, and yet seldom was there less inhabitants in Jerusalem, if any belief may be had to Historians; for at that time it was one of the Metropolis Cities of the world, and the glory of Nations and the joy of the whole Earth; and besides there was then great expectation, as we may read, Luke 19. 11. That the Kingdom of God should immediately appear, and all the Jews out of all Nations where they were scattered, now repaired to Jerusalem, and returned into their own country, expecting the Messiah. So that at this time, we cannot conceive but that there were infinites of people in Jerusalem, and it is said, That Jerusalem went out and was baptized by John. By Jerusalem, here metonimycally the place is taken for the people. Now when it is said that a City goeth out, it is to be understood either of the whole people, Man, Woman, and Child, old and young, with all the inhabitants; as many times it happens, in great Earthquakes, or some Pestilence or Inundation, that all the Inhabitants are forced to leave a City, and to seek some other habitation, or of some great part; but we cannot conceive the going out of Jerusalem to John the Baptist in that large sense and expression; so that in this place it must be taken Synecdochycally, and we are to understand a great part, or a chief part for the whole: as when a City is said to entertain a King, or to go out to meet a King, here it is to be understood principally of the chief Officers, as the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and the Common-council, and all their several Companies, and chief Captains and Commanders, with all their magnificence; so that in this notion the common people and the ordinary Citizens are not thought on, or at least are not numbered. As when JESUS was borne in Bethlehem, and the Wise Men came to Jerusalem, to inquire where they should find him that was borne King of the Jews, that they might worship him, for they had seen his Star, it is said, That when Herod heard these things, He and all Jerusalem was troubled with him. Here, by all Jerusalem, is to be understood all the chief Officers and Courtiers; for the common people were glad of it; for that was the day they had long looked for, and rejoiced at: but Herod being an Usurper and a Tyrant, and all his Nobles, Peers, and Great men being confederate with him, and adjutors in his usurpation and tyranny, and conceiving that Christ was an earthly Monarch; and that after the manner of the Kings of the Earth, he would not only pull down the Usurper, but likewise call all them in question, as guilty of High Treason, and cut them of as complices and abettors; this made them tremble and fear; and because it was the general fear of all the great men in Jerusalem, and of all the Courtiers and Officers under Herod, therefore it is said, that Herod and all Jerusalem with him was troubled. So that Tyrants and their complices never have any real peace. But in this sense also it cannot be understood, that Jerusalem went out to John and was baptized; it must therefore by a Senecdoche be taken for all the common people promiscuously, or for a mighty multitude of all sorts, and of all ranks of people, and of all professions, as Publicans, Soldiers, and the ordinary Inhabitants: and in this sense the word Jerusalem must be taken for a mighty multitude of men in Jerusalem that were made Christians; for otherwise the Evangelist would have said, many went out of Jerusalem also, as well as out of other places: but in saying that all Judea, and all the Regions round about, and Jerusalem went out; this metaphorical expression doth signify, That an infinite number of people in Jerusalem it self, were made Christians and Members of the Church; and that it is so to be understood, the places following will evidently evince it: for in Matth. 11. 12. our Savior saith, That from the days of John the Baptist, until now, the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force, then the which, there could nothing be spoke more emphatically, to set forth the growth and increase of Believers, and the multitude of Christians, as Luke also in ch. 16. v. 16. expresseth saying, That the Law and the Prophets were until John; since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth in to it: that is, the generality of the people became believers, and were baptized: as it is yet more evident from Luke 7. 29, 30. by the very testimony of our Savior, who saith, That all the people that heard him, and the Publicans, justified God, being baptized with the Baptism of John; but the P harisees and Lawyers rejected the council of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. So that by the witness of our Savior Christ, except the Pharisees and the Priests; all the people, or the generality of the people in Jerusalem were baptized, and became Christians, and embraced the Gospel: and this was accounted among the miracles that was wrought in those days, and as a thing of special observation, and as a matter of wonder; as we may see in the message our Savior Christ sent unto John the Baptist by his Disciples, when he bad them relate unto their Master, what they had seen and heard in the 22. Verse; Tell him saith he, That the blind see, the lame walk, the Leapers are cleansed, the deaf hear, and the dead are raised, and the poor receive the Gospel; this I say, was among the miracles, that the generality of the poor embrace the Gospel, and were baptized and made Believers: which must needs import a mighty multitude, and a great increase, or else it would not have been a thing of such wonder, and have been sent unto Saint John as a miraculous thing; and a thing worthy to prove Christ himself to be the Messiah looked for; for no mere man could have wrought such a work, asto draw the hearts of the the people to embrace the Gospel, but the Messiah himself; For Paul may plant, and Apollo may water, 1 Cor. 3. but God only the Messiah, must give the increase; he must move the heart to embrace the Gospel, and to believe; for faith is the gift of God, Ephes. 2. and therefore this was the wonder that the generality of the people did believe and were baptized, and this was the sole work and operation of Christ, and therefore proved him to be the Prophet they looked for. And it stands with all reason that there were infinites of people in Jerusalem that believed; and that John was greatly magnified of the people, and publicly followed, because for a time, Herod himself countenanced John Mark. 6. 20▪ and feared him, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him, and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly. And although we read not that he was baptized by John, yet he highly honored him; till John reproved him, and told him, it was not lawful for him to have his Brothers Wife. And in this interim of his seeming favor, we may conceive, that the Courtiers also and the great men would do as their Master did: for if we observe the manner of all Courts to this day, what the King does the Courtiers also do; if the King laugh, though there be perhaps a cause of mourning, they will all laugh; and if he frowns, though there be a cause of cheerfulness and smiling, they will all frown; and if the King commends any man, they will all admire him; and if he hears any Minister gladly, they will all hear him willingly: and if he when he is reproved, be angry and displeased, and will cut off his head whom he had so honored but the day before, then all the Courtiers, they will help him, and further the work: as we may see, not only in the example of John the Baptist, but in Haman; as soon as the King frownd upon him, the Courtiers they covered his face, and up they trussed him; be it right or wrong it is all one to Courtiers. But in that interim, I say, that John the Baptist was in favor with the King, without doubt it animated the people greatly to follow him, and by hearing him, many thousand Saints were converted, and the multitudes of them were numerous, as is manifest from Matth. 14. 5. for it is said, That when he would have put him to death he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a Prophet. Here are two observables, the one, That he that feared not God, was afraid of his servants. The second, that it was a mighty multitude of Believers that were in Jerusalem; for a few could not have awed the King and kept him in fear: and therefore he was forced to defer the cutting off of his head, till he had got to him all the strength of Galilee, all his Lord's and high Captains, and his chief Estates and Commanders, Mark 6. 21. And when he thought himself strong enough, then he exercised his tyranny. Yea, when John was taken away, yet the multitudes of the people continued steadfast in the faith, as we may see in Luke 20. by the confession of the very enemies: for when our Savior asked them concerning the baptism of John, Whether it was from Heaven or of Men? And they reasoned among themselves, saying, if we shall say from Heaven, he will say, why then believed ye him not? and if we say of Men, all the people will stone us, for they be persuaded that John was a Prophet. Here by the confession of the very enemies, all the people, or the generality of them were Believers; and it must of necessity be a mighty multitude, that kept all the Priests and all the Elders that had all the power in their hands, in awe, that they durst not so much as open their mouths against John the Baptist. From all which places, and many more that might be produced, to prove, That there were so many Believers in Jerusalem as could not all meet in one place or room, or in one Congregation, to partake in all acts of worship; I thus argue.

Where there was an infinite multitude, or a mighty City of Believers, there they could not all meet together in one place or room, or in one Congregation, for the enjoying of all acts of worship, and for edification (which is required in the Churches, 1 Cor. 14. 26.) but of necessity must be distributed into several Congregations and Assemblies, and divers divisions, that they might be all edified, and partake in all Ordinances. But in the Church of Jerusalem, by the very baptism and preaching of John, there were infinite multitudes, and a very City of Believers. Ergo, they could not all meet together in one place or room, or in one congregation for the enjoying of all acts of worship, and for edification (which is required in the Church of God) but of necessity must be distributed into several congregations and assemblies, and divers divisions, that they might all be edified, & partake in all ordinances. For the major, it is clear, by the very light of nature, and all reason: for there is no one place or house that can contain a whole City, or infinite multitude of Believers: and if any great place could contain them, they could not all be edified and partake of all the acts of worship. For if the very great raw-bon'd building of Paul's itself were crammed full of people, and had a Preacher of the strongest lungs in the City, half the people could not hear and be edified, as daily experience telleth us; so that of necessity, if they would be edified, and partake in all the Ordinances, they must be distributed into divers congregations, and several assemblies. I am most assured that there were such multitudes of Believers in Jerusalem, that five such buildings as Paul's could not have contained their very bodies within their walls, much less receive them, or entertain them for edification. So that for the major, I am confident there is no intelligible man will doubt of it. For the Minor, it is manifest from the places above produced; for our Savior saith, excepting the Pharisees and the Lawyers (which were but a little handful) all the people, or the generality of them, justified God, and were baptized, and were Believers. So that the conclusion from the premises doth necessarily follow. But from the former places I argue yet further after this manner.

Where there was such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and Believers, as kept a tyrannical King in awe, and all the Magistrates and Elders in whose hands was all the power and authority; and struck such a fear and terror into them all, that they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them, though they were their inveterate enemies, and desired it: There of necessity the number of the Believers must be so great, as they could not all meet together in one place or room, or in one congregation, for the enjoying and partaking in all the acts of worship; but if they would be edified, must be distributed into divers congregations and assemblies. But in Jerusalem there were such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and Believers, as kept Herod himself, the tyrant, in awe, all the Magistrates and Elders, in whose hands was all the power and authority; and struck such a fear and terror into them, that they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them, though they were their inveterate enemies, and desired it. Ergo, of necessity the number of the Believers was so great, as they could not all meet together in one place or room, or in one congregation, for the enjoying and partaking in all acts of worship; but if they would be edified, must be distributed into divers Congregations and Assemblies.

For the Major and Minor of this Syllogism, besides the force of reason and common understanding, which were enough to convince any rational creature of the truth of them: the holy Scripture itself (as from the places above specified, is manifest) proves them. So that none can doubt of the truth of the conclusion, but such as will call in question truth it self. I might out of the several places above mentioned draw many more Arguments to prove the conclusion; but because I study brevity, these for the present shall serve, to prove, That by the very baptism and Ministry of S. John the Baptist, there were such an infinite company of Believers in the Church of Jerusalem, as they could not all meet together in one place or congregation, for the enjoying of all the Ordinances.

To these first arguments of mine, by which I proved that by the very Baptism of S. John there were more converted and made Christians and believeres in Jerusalem then could meet in any one place or Congregation, Master Knollys answers by denying the minor of my Syllogisms, and I. S. by denying they were Christians as we shall see. I will therefore reply unto them both, in order, beginning first with Master Knollys, whose words are these pag. 8. I do deny the minor proposition of these arguments saith he. Neither hath the Doctor proved, that there was an infinite number of believers, nor a very City of believers in the Church of Jerusalem. The Scriptures quoted by the Doctor speak no such thing. Those places in Matthew, Mark and Luke, tell us of very many who were baptized by John, and by Christ's Disciples; but do not declare how many of those baptized persons were of the Church of Jerusalem; and the Scripture witnesseth, Act. 9. 31. That there were Churches through all Judea, as well as in Jerusalem; and for ought I know, or the Doctor either, many of those baptized persons might be in those Churches, yea the most of them, and but a few in Jerusalem; it may be no more but those hundred and twenty mentioned, Act. 1. 13, 14, 15. to whom were added about three thousand souls, who continued in the doctrine of the Apostles, and in breaking of bread and prayers, Acts the 2. 42, 43, 44. This is all Master Knollys hath to say by way of answer for the enervating of the strength of my Arguments and Reasons, by which I proved there were more converted by John's Ministerythen could meet in any one place in Jerusalem.

Now here before I come to reply, I refer myself to the judicious Reader, whether from the forgoing places, which I quoted out of the Holy Word of God, & from the Reasons and Arguments deduced out of it, it was not sufficiently evinced, That there were an infinite number of believers, and a very City of them in the Church of Jerusalem, and therefore more then could meet in any one place or Congregation: I demand I say of any intelligible Christian, whether those Scriptures I cited with the Arguments deduced from them do not speak and persuade such a thing? I am confident all such as know anything in learning, will say they do. But for answer, Master Knollys himself, grants that very many were baptized by John and Christ's disciples, and none were baptized then but Believers, as he and all the Independents do confess and acknowledge; but saith he, the Scriptures quoted, do not declare how many of those baptized persons were of the Church of Jerusalem; for the Scriptures witness that there were Churches through all Judea, as well as in Jerusalem, and for ought (saith he) I know or the Doctor either, many of those baptized persons might be of those Churches, yea the most of them, and but a few in Jerusalem, it may be no more but those hundred and twenty, mentioned, Acts the 1. verse. 13, 14, 15.

If a bare denial of any Argument with a senseless Reason or two, and an it may be, were a sufficient conviction of a truth, then Master Knollys would be a very precious Disputant, and to say Bellarmine thou liest, would be enough to confute all the Papists: But in matters of this nature and of so high concernment, there is more required then bare denials, and vain evasions and maybee's: And therefore I will take this liberty to tell Master Knollis, that he trifles in Divinity, and deals not like a serious nor learned Christian, nor to the purpose: for this is not in question between me and the Independents, how many of those baptized persons through all Judea and the Regions round about were resident in the Church of Jerusalem? This I say was never controverted between us; for no man that I know of, ever doubted but that all those that came out of all Judea and the Regions round about to the Ministry & Baptism of John and Christ's Disciples, returned home again to their several habitations, and there remained and abode, as those that came out of Jerusalem to John's Preaching and Baptism, after they were baptized, repaired to their several houses & habitations in that City, and remained there waiting upon the public Ordinances; this I conceive all men that have any understanding believe. And the Scripture sufficiently declareth, that the multitudes of Believers that came out of Jerusalem and were baptized by John the Baptist, (to speak nothing now of the Apostles and seventy Disciples) were numberless, and therefore were more then the hundred and twenty names; yea they were innumerable, & therefore more then could meet in any one place or a few. And if the Reader will but look back to the Scriptures above quoted, out of which I framed my Arguments, and consider the ensuing Scriptures and Reasons from them, he will easily perceive that Master Knollys is a mere Quibler, and a man no way fit for either disputation, or any serious employment.

The Evangelists speaking of the great concourses of people that came from all quarters to the Preaching and Ministry of John, and to be baptized, to avoid mistakes, do specify the several places out of which they came, with the numbers indefinitely set down that came from every place, saying, There went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judea, and all the Regions round about Jordan, and were baptized of him in Jordan confessing their sins, Mat. the 3. Here it is abundantly declared that it was an infinite company that came from Jerusalem, as by the word Jerusalem is sufficiently manifest, being metaphorically set down and taken in that place (as I said before) synechdochically for a mighty part and multitude of people that came out of that City. And Saint Mark confirms this, chap. 1. ver. the 5. who saith, there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river Jordan confessing their sins.

And the same is further ratified by the words of our Savior, Luke 7. 29. 30. who saith, that all the people that heard him, and the Publicans justified God, being baptized by the Baptism of John, but the Pharisees and Lawyers rejected the Council of God against themselves, being not baptized. So that now by the mouth of three witnesses and by the testimony of Christ himself it is sufficiently proved, That if Jerusalem and all the people of Jerusalem went out and were baptized by John (except the Pharisees and Lawyers) that there was an innumerable multitude, and therefore more then could possibly meet in any one place or a few, and many more then the hundred and twenty names spoke of in the first of the Acts; which fond conceit of Mr Knollys is yet more evidently refuted out of the second of the Acts, where it is related that there were at that time Inhabitants and Dwellers at Jerusalem devout men, that is, true Worshippers and Believers from out of all the Nations under Heaven. To say nothing of Nicodemus, and of Joseph of Arimathea and of many other Rulers, and of all the people and children that cried Hosanna and that received Christ into the City with all their acclamations and believed in him; the most of which were Inhabitants and Dwellers in Jerusalem and such as had their abode there, so that by this I have now said, the folly and vanity of Mr Knollys and his cavil is apparently manifest, and this truth sufficiently clear to all, that there was an infinite number and a very City of Believers in the Church of Jerusalem, besides those that were of the other Churches in Judea, and therefore could not all meet in one place: For the Scripture saith that Jerusalem and they of Jerusalem went out and were baptized by John the Baptist; and therefore all good Christians I am confident will ever believe the Scriptures and give credit unto the word of God rather then unto Mr Knollys; and if they will believe the Scripture of truth, then they will not only believe there was an infinite number and a very City of Believers in Jerusalem, and that by the very ministry and preaching of John, but that Mr Knollys is a very wicked and blasphemous creature as who giveth the spirit of God the lie and opposeth also all good reason: For the spirit saith Jerusalem and all they of Jerusalem, except the Pharisees and Lawyers, were baptized by John, and all these were inhabitants at Jerusalem; and Mr Knollys affirmeth the contrary and confuteth all the Evangelists; whether therefore he be not a very precious disputant I refer it to the judgment of all sober-minded Christians that love sincerity, truth and plain dealing.

And this might suffice to show the vanity and wickedness of the man and what a vain caviller he is, that thus abuseth precious time to abuse himself and miserably to delude ignorant people: But for the farther confirmation of my Minor, I will produce one or two testimonies more out of the eleventh of Mark, where there is mention made of two great companies and parties of believers and those all Inhabitants in Jerusalem, the one of them that followed Christ and believed in him, at which the Scribes and Pharisees were offended, and sought how they might destroy him; but saith the Scripture, they feared him, because all the people were astonished at his doctrine, that is, they believed it: verse 18. another company was those that were the Disciples of John the Baptist, and they accounted John a Prophet indeed, as all the men of Jerusalem did, verse 32. and either of these companies were so great and powerful as they kept all Christ's enemies in awe, so that they were afraid of the people of either party, and therefore there was then a very City of believers in Jerusalem and they Inhabitants, and that in Christ's time, and they had been baptized by Saint John, for all Jerusalem went out and were baptized by him; So that now I assure myself every but ordinary understanding man will gather that there was an innumerable multitude of believers in Jerusalem, and more than could meet in any one place, or a few if they had been put together, when there were two such potent parties there, as either of them kept the very enemies of Christ, the Magistrates and Rulers, yea Herod ▪himself in awe, which a few thousands could never have done; and all these were Inhabitans of Jerusalem and well known to the Scribes and Pharisees to be Christ's and John's Disciples, and all believers, as we shall more abundantly prove in the following discourse; and therefore my Minor doth now stand firm, That there were more believers in Jerusalem, and that by the very ministry and baptism of John, then could meet in any one place or a few, and that there w •• an infinite number of believers and a very City of believers, which Mr Knolly s denieth and in so doing gives the spirit of God the lys and contradicts the holy Scripture and opposeth all sound reason, and all this to maintain the fond opinion of Independency. And this shall serve to have spoke by way of answer to what Mr Knollys had to reply to my first arguments concerning the multitudes baptized by John the Baptist.

I will now give an answer to what I. S. hath to say against this argument, of whom I shall take the liberty by way of preface before I come to my Reply, to speak something, and yet no more then shall be thought fit and agreeable to sound reason, and so much the rather I do it, because this man greatly vanteth himself, and because his answer is highly esteemed of amongst many of the congregational way, who I confess are much to be blamed that they suffer themselves to be deluded with such fellows, never examining their writings, but taking all for oracles they vent, and thinking it enough that there is anything come out against a Presbyterian in way of answer, though there be nothing more destructive to their own opinion, as I am confident it will appear to all judicious men, that these answers of Mr Knollys, my Brother Burton and this I. S. are. And for I. S. I may say thus much of him that he is yet vainer then Mr Knollys in his answers; for he candidly denieth upon all occasions the Minors of my Syllogisms, and then gives some sucking reasons for this his denial; but this I. S. hath nothing of a Scholar in him; for all good Scholars and Disputants will set down the arguments of their adversaries in their full strength and as they are in the Copy, and then either deny the Major or Minor, or both; or distinguish, and after they have shown the fallacyes of the arguments, if there be any, then by their art and learning they will show the weakness of them, and so evade the dinte and force of them; this I say is the method, not only of all accurate Disputants, but of every ordinary jangler, if he, at least, pretends anything to learning: But I. S. hath not so much ingenuity in him as to do anything of all this; but first sets down my arguments in an obscure way and to the halves, so that the unlearned Reader cannot perceive the strength of my reason; and then in a confused manner gives in his answer in the name of all the Independents, which upon due examination I am confident will appear to all learned men to be nothing but a pack of blasphemies and contradictions as being a mere fighting against the truth and a giving of the spirit of God the lie, as in the sequel will be evidenced.

Our Savior in the 3 of John verse 20. 21. saith, That he that doth the works of darkness, shunns the light; but he that doth truth, cometh to the light, &c. Truly I may justly accuse I. S. and his fraternity of this sin, that they not only shun the light themselves but hinder others also from it, and do whatsoever in them lies to keep men from the knowledge of the truth and from prying into their errors, that by this means they may atttain unto their own ends, and therefore they not only disp • rage all the Presbyterians, and with their calumnies labor to make them odious to the people as so many railors and persecutors, for so they call us, that they may neither hear their Sermons, nor read any books written by them, or anything penned against their Novelties by those of that party; and all this to abuse the simple people, that by this their art they may with-hold the truth from them in unrighteousness: And in this faculty are all the Independents very expert who cunningly either pick and choose or curtalize and adulterate all a guments that are brought against them, or else totally pass them over with slightings, when they can no way with any reason reply unto them. And as they are generally void of all good learning and sciences, so there is neither ingenuity, candor or honesty amongst the most of them, these excellent graces and virtues being now strangers to those of the congregational way, amongst the which fraud and jugglings and all manner of dissimulation and railing are the only master pieces of their craft, by which they maintain and uphold their way and foment their errors; for should they deal fairly with us and not dissuade the people from reading our books and hearing our godly and painful Ministers, and would they but set down our arguments and reasons in their full strength, the people would not only speedily see their errors but relinquish them. And therefore they all take special care to keep the people in ignorance; and amongst those Artificers and Craf • s-men of that new Goddess that Diana of Independency, this J. S. though in all good learning he be a very novice, yet in this craft of juggling he is pretily expert. And that all men may see I do not falsely accuse him, I will first set down the sum of my arguments taken from the multitudes baptized by John the Baptist, and and then set down in what terms he delivers them, with his vain and impious answer to them.

The sum of my Arguments is this.

Where there was an infinitemultitude, or a mighty City of believers, there they could not all meet together in one place or room or in one congregation to enjoy all acts of worship for edification; but in the Church of Jerusalem, by the very baptism and preaching of John, there was an infinite multitude and a very City of believers; ergo they could not all meet together in any one congregation.

This is the sum of my first Argument. The second is this.

Where there was such an infinite company and multitude of Christians and believers, as kept a tyrannical King in awe and all the Magistrates and Elders, in whose hands was all the power and authority; and struck such a terror into them all, as they durst not exercise their cruelty and tyranny over them, though they were their inveterate enemies, there of necessity the number of them must be so great, as they could not all meet together in one place or congregation to partake in all Acts of worship. But, in the Church of Jerusalem there was such a company of believers by the very baptism of John; ergo they could not all meet together in any one place or congregation.

This is the sum of my arguments, which I made good out of the Word of God, and from sound reason, as they that have read my book with judgment, I am confident will acknowledge.

Now hear how J. S. setteth them down with his answer to them pag. the 8. and 9. of his book.

The Doctors first proposition is (saith he) that there were many Congregations and several assemblies in the Church of Jerusalem &c. for proof whereof (saith he) he bringeth the multitudes of Converts to John's Baptism; the people of Jerusalem, all of them; and all Judea &c. whereby (saith he) all became Christians, or members of the Christian Church: for John's baptism was into Jesus Christ, and the very same with that of the Apostles. Thus I. S. sets down my Arguments, which I affirm, is not candidly done of him: for the ignorant Reader cannot see into the strength of my arguments, they being delivered in such obscure terms, and set down also to the halves, the whole truth not being specified. For not one of ten thousand had ever seen or read my book, & I dare say, not one of an hundred of the Independents had ever vouchsafed so much as to look into it; for I was made so odious unto them by their blasting language, as they abhorred my very name: with all howsoever they boasted at the first coming of it out, that there were twenty pens at work in answering of it, yet not one of them ever appeared, till three months after it was printed. Now all the Copyes that were printed were all gone in one week, so that the answers coming out so long after, and my arguments not being known to the people, and being in this obscure manner and in such dark expressions, and but to the halves set down, every vulgar understanding can never see into the weight and strength of them, especially, they having not my book before them.

And to say the truth, all the Independents ordinarily use this method in their pretended answers, as first, to let the books they reply unto be forgotten, and after that to blurte out something against them, concealing the truth, and then they crow out as victors and conquerors, that they have beat up our quarters and pulled down the pillars of our discourse, as I S. doth vainly in this his Pamplet, when it will appear to all intelligible men that he hath only cast a squib or two at them, and then as a mere fresh water Soldier speedily ran away, and left that work to others, as he unaduisedly in the tenth page and in his wise Epistle confesseth, sayning indisposition of body, when indeed it was his want of wit, learning, honesty, and courage.

As I haveset down the sum of my Arguments, and compared his expressing of my meaning, with it; I will also set down the sum of his answer to them, which he giveth in the name of all the Independents, saying, we answered to your reason; and then set down his own words in their full length, that all men may see my fair dealing with him. For I. S. doth not here deny my minor as Master Knollys did, or accuse me of false Musters as he vainly and impiously doth in his answer to my second Arguments. But plainly denieth that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were Christians, to whom my brother Burton assenteth, page 16. of his book saying that those believers that were baptized by John the Baptist into Christ to come, according to the Papists doctrine, were not formed into a Christian Church, or Churches, as after Christ's resurrection Christians were. These are my brother Burtons formal words, who not only assenteth to I. S. in this his opinion, but also bringeth in the authority of the Papists to confirm this their doctrine, and so in this the Independents agree with the Papists to overthrow the truth, and to maintain their abominable errors.

And this I conceive, was the cause that moved my brother Burton in the ninth page of his book in the beginning of his answer, to say, `as for your indefinite enumeration of those multitudes baptized by John the Baptist and Christ's Disciples, we take no notice of them. This is his expression there, concerning the which in due place. Surely if my brother Burton had thought them Christians, he would have demeed them worthy to have been taken notice of: but in this he agreeth with I. S. and the Papists.

Now I will give you the sum of I. S. his Arguments, in way of answer, by which he denieth that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were Christians.

The first is because (saith he) they were baptized into Christ that was to die, and not dead; therefore in his dialect they were no Christians.

The second, they were not baptized with the holy Ghost and with fire; therefore thy were no Chrstians.

The third, they were no more Christians then the Jews that passed through the red Sea; but they were no Christians; ergo they also that were baptized by John were no Christians.

The fourth, The baptism of John was not perfect, ergo those that were baptized by him were no Christians.

The fifth, those that were baptized by John, did not only hasitate, but were scandalized at the true Messiah, and under the form of John's baptism did fight against the true baptism and baptiser the Lord Jesus: ergo they were no Christians.

Sixthly, they that were baptized by John were not cast into a Church mould, according to the New▪testament form, neither were they members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem, ergo they were not Christians; and this Argument is brought in by way of a corallary.

This must needs be the scope of his answer, or else he saith nothing to the purpose in denying my Arguments, which were not only to prove, that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were Christians and believers, but also that they were in such multitudes as they could not all possibly meet in any one place, or congregation to communicate in all the Ordinances and all Acts of worship to edification. The dint and force of the which Argument, he thinks he sufficiently evadeth, by denying that they were Christians at all. So that if this Answer be well looked into and examined, it will appear that whiles he boasteth and glorieth that he hath beat up my quarters, he beats up Saint John's quarters, yea Christ's quarters, and all his Disciples quarters before Christ's death and Ascension, and all the quarters of all Christians that now live in the world: For if none are well Baptized and made Christians indeed, but such as are Baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire, then all those that were baptized before Christ's Ascension were no true Christians, nor no Christians in these our times, nor many Generations before us, who were not baptized by the Holy Ghost and with fire; and by these his fond cavils he overthroweth the Scripture itself and all Divine and human Authority, and gives the Spirit of God the lie.

And truly such a piece of impious ignorance with such impudent confidence my eyes yet never beheld before I. S. and his complices came into the World. So that it stranges me eceedingly that such men as he and they are, should be suffered by those of the Congregational way to go unpunished, who may shame them all, as indeed they are a shame to all Christian Religion: For I appeal to the judgment of all such as have any knowledge in Religion or love to the truth, or have any moderation or good temper yet left in them, whether this be a thing tolerable in any that has the name of a Christian, to play not only the juglers, to deceive and delude the poor people, but to give the Spirit of God the lie, and then to vapor and brag of it as of a conquest?

But now I will set down his Arguments in his own words, and give my answer to them severally. We (saith he) answer to your reasons. So that he writes in the name of all the Independents, as one of the Commanders and Captains in their Militia, and as one of their Champions, and therefore in the name of them all, saith, We answer to your reasons. Now take notice what he answers in the name of the whole Fraternity.

1. John's Baptism, was into Christ, but it was in Christum moriturum, not in Christum mortuum. This is J. S. his first answer. Truly one that should but look on all his Answers to my Arguments, would wonder what the man meant by them, and to what purpose he uttered these words: for they are a manifest fighting against the Scripture of truth; as all the judicious and learned will well perceive. And I have heard both learned & pious men say, that they did not believe, that I. S. did well understand himself when he writ this book: and there is some reason of this their opinion: for he confesseth in his wise Epistle, that he was in a course of Physic at the wels; & who knows but the man might then be somewhat distemperd in his brain, and so might do the actions of a man crazed? and his very language doth in a manner speak as much, both in this his Answer, and in many other passages of his Book, as in their due places will appear, yea the very title also, and his Epistle being senseless, calling his Pamphlet Flagellum flagelli, and the beating up of Doctor Bastwicks quarters, when he never came nigh them, and the taking hold and shaking of the Pillars of his discourse, when he never so much as touched them, with many such other expressions, all which have no correspondency amongst themselves, and shows that the man is either a very stranger in Rhetoric, not knowing how to keep himself to his Metaphor, or else that he is crazed indeed; and truly so everyone will conceive, if they duly weigh and consider all passages in his book; especially this answer of his to my Arguments: by which he labors to prove that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were no Christians, no Believers; which he doth by very senseless reasons: the first of which I have related, viz. that they were baptized into Christ to die and not dead, and therefore in his opinion they were no Christians. I omit his latin expression, as thinking it a vain thing in him to insert latin sentences writing in the vulgar tongue, especially in handling points of divinity, & those of great concernment, which the people should have set before them in perspicuous and plain terms.

But now take notice how the man contradicteth himself in his answer; for the drift of it is to prove, that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were no Christians, and yet he saith, they were baptized into Christ. Then they were Christians by his own confession, for Jesus Christ was yesterday, and today, and the same forever, Heb. 13. and He was ever the Messiah, the seed of the woman that should break the Serpents head, that Rock upon which the Church was built, against which the gates of Hell should never prevail, Mat. 16. So that they that were baptized into Jesus Christ, whether whiles he was living or dead, whether before his Nativity, death or ascension, or after, are all good Christians; therefore he contradicteth himself in saying they were not Christians; for it is not the circumstance of time that makes an alteration in the substance and essence of anything: for the Passover in Egypt, was the same for substance that it was in the Wilderness, and in the land of Canaan; for otherwise it should follow that the Supper of the Lord celebrated by Christ himself before his passion, and in memorial of his death, should not be the same with that it was after Christ's Resurrection and Ascension; and that the Apostles that received the Lord's Supper, were not Christians then as well as after his death, which I think I. S. will not dare affirm; but if he should, I am confident all the well grounded Christians in the world would be his adversaries in this; for the Apostle Saint Paul in the 1. of the Corinth. 11. 23, 24, 25. makes them all one for substance; and as the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was the same for essence before Christ's death that it was after, so was the Sacrament of Baptism, to all that were baptized; and he was as good a Christian that was baptized in to Christ before his death, as he that was baptized into him after his Ascension, as all good reason will persuade; for Christ was ever the Messiah and King of his Church; which will yet more evidently appear, if we compare earthly things with heavenly.

I demand therefore of I. S. or any of the congregational way, whether all such subjects as take the oath of allegiance, or swear fealty to any King, who is owned by the people and whole Kingdom to be their lawful King, as appointed and set over them of God, and is openly proclaimed through the whose Realm to be their King, though at that time he be in another Country, and but now coming to take the possession of his Kingdom, I say I demand whether such subjects as take the oath of allegiance and sware fealty unto him, before he comes and sits visibly upon his Throne, be not by this their oath become that Kings subjects, as truly and as really, as if the King were bodily present? I demand further, when he is in person come into his Kingdom, and visibly amongst them, saluted and entertained and owned by the people for their King, whether or no those subjects that then take their oath of allegiance, and promise by that their oath their subjection unto him, be not as really and truly his subjects, as those that after he is inaugurated and gone into one of his other Kingdoms, take then the oath of allegiance, and sware subjection unto him in all his just commands? I am confident that all men that are but a little skilled in politics, or any good learning, will acknowledge, that either of the former subjects, are as truly and really subjects unto him though they never saw him (as many hundred thousands never did their Kings) as those that took the oath when he was gone in triumph into another of his Kingdoms. And thus it was with those that were baptized by John the Baptist, that great Officer of Christ's kingdom, and the blessed Apostle, those Stewards, Secretaries, privy Counselors, & Ambassadors of his Royalty, who all baptized those that came unto them into Jesus Christ the King and Messiah, as well before his death as after, and all they owned him as well then for their King as after, crying Hosanna thou son of David, and strowing their garments in the way, saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord, peace in Heaven, and glory in the Highest, Luke 19. verse. 4. and therefore it is a senseless reason, yea contradictory unto it self that I. S. bringeth, considering there is no difference for the substance of the matter, though there be some variety in respect of the circumstance of time; and in this fond error of I. S. is my brother Burton and the Papists, who think there was a great difference between the Baptism before Christ's death and that after his death, when indeed for substance there was none, no more then was between the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper before Christ's death and after. And therefore all those that received either of those Sacraments or both of them before his passion, were as good Christians as those that received them after; for he was owned by them at that time to be the Lamb of God that was to take away the sins of the world of believers, and to be the King of the Jews, the Savior of his people, to be the anointed Christ, & they took the Sacraments upon it, which is as much as the oath of allegiance to any King, which were sufficient to make them as good Christians as any that should come after them, and therefore they that were baptized by John the Baptist into Christ to die, which I. S. doth acknowledge, they were all as good Christians as any now baptized by the Independents; and therefore that he faith to the contrary and in opposition to this truth is a mere babble and a contradiction of himself. And this shall suffice to have spoke to his first answer to prove that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were as good Christians as any other that were baptized after Christ's death.

His second is as senseless, which is this. To say (saith he) that the Baptism of John was the same with Christ's and the Apostles, is flat contrary to the assertion of John himself and the Apostles, Mat. 21. 25. Act. 18. 25. I baptize you with water (saith he) but there comes one after me, who shall baptize with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. These are the words of his second argument to prove that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were no Christians. In the entrance of this his answer he beats the air, and fights with his own shadow and falsifies my words; for I never said nor thought it, that the Baptism of John was the same with Christ's; for the Scripture relateth that Christ baptized not at all, John 4. verse. 2. I said indeed, it was the same with the Apostles, and that is manifest out of many places of the holy Scriptures, as out of the 3. of Luke, ver. 2. & John the 1. v. 33. where John himself speaking saith, he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, &c. Yea one of those places quoted by himself, Matth. 21. verse. 25. sufficiently declares that John had his Commission from God himself, (whose Prophet he was) to baptize with water, and the Apostles themselves before Christ's death and Ascension baptized but with water, and had no other Commission but that Saint John the Baptist had, and John baptized with the Baptism of Repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him that is on Christ Jesus, Act. 19. verse. 4. and the very Apostles Baptism before Christ's death was no other but the Baptism of repentance and to believe in Christ; yea faith and repentance was the sum of all the Preaching, both of John and of all the holy Apostles, both before Christ's death and after, as we may see, Acts 20. verse. 21. where the Apostle saith, Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ. Now when the Baptism of Saint John and the Apostles, both before Christ's death and after was all one for substance, and all into Christ, as we may yet further see, Acts the 8. 16. where it is said they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. It was no error in me to say that the Baptism of John was into Christ Jesus, and the very same with that of the Apostles, for the Holy Ghost which is the spirit of truth hath so taught me: and therefore all those that were baptized by John the Baptist were as good Christians and believers as those that were baptized by the Apostles, if repentance towards God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ, and being baptized into him could make good Christians; which were blasphemy to gain-say, and nothing else but to give the spirit of God the lie: and therefore J. S. affirming that there was a difference between the Baptism of John and that of the Apostles, and denying that those that were baptized by John were Christians, gives the spirit of God the lie: for the holy word of God which was penned by his spirit asserteth the contrary: And for that text that he citeth out of the third of Matthew, where John saith, I baptize you with water, but there comes one after me who shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire; this is nothing to his purpose nor nothing against my opinion: For, as I said before, it was never my belief that the baptism of Christ and John's baptism was all one, seeing Saint John the Baptist hath taught the contrary, as in the words alleged it is sufficiently declared: But I demand of I. S. whether the Apostles, all whose names were written in heaven, were not as good Christians and Believers in Jesus Christ by John's baptism, before they had received the gifts of the Holy Ghost, and were baptized with fire (which we read of Act. the 2.) as they were after the cloven tongues appeared unto them? ver. 3. If either he or any of his fraternity shall deny it, then they must deny the sixteenth chapter of Matthew and the sixth of Saint John, where we find that honorable confession of all the Apostles where they testify their faith in Christ into whom they had been baptized before that, yea they must deny the whole Scriptures of the New Testament which affirm the contrary: And if the baptizing of any with the Holy Ghost and with fire be that thing only that makes men Christians and Believers, then none that were not so baptized were good Christians: for the gifts of the Holy Ghost as the diversity of tongues and working of miracles, were not promiscuous and given to all as Saint Paul doth sufficiently declare, 1 Cor. 12. 30. Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? So that all the people were not baptized with the Holy Ghost; and therefore by I. S. his learning were no Christians: Neither was that the work of the Apostles, but it was Christ's work only who first breathed the spirit upon the Apostles and after his ascen • ion first poured down those gifts upon them, Acts the 2. and after that at many other times through the prayer of the Apostles and putting on of their hands upon the Believers Christ for the confirmation of their Ministry, and to manifest to all those that were converted by them that they were sent by him, shed down those miraculous graces upon many, but gave them not to all; and it is also declared that they first believed and then they were baptized with the Holy Ghost; and we have but one President that I remember in the holy Scripture, that any received the gifts of the Holy Ghost, before they were baptized with water, and that is those of Cornelius his house: but all the rest were baptized with water before. And therefore those gifts made them not Christians but declared them to be believers, and were the effects of their faith, which notwithstanding were not conferred by the Apostles, but were immediately given by the spirit of Christ: So that those visible gifts were not essential for the making of any Christians and Believers; for they were always Believers before they received them; and if those gifts had been essential and absolutely necessary for the making of any Christians, then all that had received them should have been saved, which they were not; besides then, many hundred thousands of the primitive Christians should not have been true Believers and Christians indeed; for all men generally received them not (as I proved before) and all the Christians, for ought I know, since the Primitive times, and all that now live should be no good Christians: for they were not and now are not baptized with the holy Ghost & with fire. So that all men may see with how little reason this I. S. speaketh in these his argumenta • ions, and how vain and impious he is in all his cavils: this shall suffice to have spoke concerning his second answer. And now I come to his third, which is as good as the two former: His words are these.

3. Therefore now, (saith I. S.) by John's baptism they were not all made Christians no more then the body of the Jews before John were turned Christians by being baptized in the red Sea &c. For they were baptized into Christ by their baptism, 1 Cor. 10. 3. I deny not but this baptism of John was to prepare men for Christ, and did bear a more immediate relation to such a work, then any Ordinance before, but it did not make them absolute Christians. It did not absolve and perfect the new Church, I mean not so far as that Ordinance of baptism was to do afterwards.

Thus I. S. blasphemeth rather then disputeth: For that he saith is impious in the highest degree; for it is an apparent giving of the spirit of truth the lie, and a confuting of Christ himself and Saint Paul, and an opposing of the generality of all the Independents, as every understanding man will easily gather: for the Scripture everywhere and all the orthodox Divines, yea and all the Independents that ever I talked with or read of before I. S. and my Brother Burton, acknowledge that those that were baptized by the Baptist and Christ's Disciples before Christ's death, were Christians and Believers; for otherwise they could not have been baptized. Notwithstanding I. S. out of his learning denieth not only that they were Christians, but affirmeth also that those that were baptized by Moses in the red Sea were no Christians; whether therefore this be not to beat up the quarters of John the Baptist, Christ himself and the quarters of Moses the servant of the Lord, and of all the Independents, and to pull down the very pillars of the holy Scriptures; and be not a horrid blasphemy in I. S. I leave to the judgment of the learned! Our savior saith Luk. the 7. v. 29. 30. And all the people that heard him, & the Publicans justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John, but the Pharisees and & Lawyers rejected the Council of God against themselves being not baptized of him. Here we have Christ's testimony, who asserteth that (the Lawyers and Pharisees only excepted) all that heard John of which innumerable multitudes of them came from Jerusalem, for all Jerusalem went out to him, did justify God and did not reject his Council, that is to say, they were Believers; for the council of God in the ministry of Saint John to all the people was, that they should repent and believe in the Messiah and in token of their faith that they should be baptized; now this sweet council for the obtaining of free grace and favor offered unto them by God, in the ministry of John did the Pharisees and Lawyers reject to their own perdition; for they would not bring forth fruits meet for repentance, that is they would neither believe in the Messiah nor repent nor be baptized; and therefore as a company of Infidels and unbelievers they despised the council of God and his grace and favor; but all the other that heard John saith Christ, justified God, and did not reject his council, that is, they acknowledged that God was just, faithful, merciful and gracious, and therefore believed his promises and repented and were baptized and were all as good Christians and Believers as any were, if any credit may be given to Christ's words. Whether therefore we ought rather to believe the words of Christ and his testimony or I. S. his language, I refer it to the judgment of the advised reader! Christ declareth they were Believers and Christians, for they justified God and rejected not his council, but embraced his grace and favor and free mercy; I. S. saith the contrary. It is true that the name of Christian, was not given to believers, till they were called so at Antioch, yet to believe, in Christ and to be baptized into Christ, made them as well Christians before his suffering as after; for otherwise Abel, Enoch, Noah, Moses, Abraham, David and all those Martyrs spoke of Hebrews the eleventh, and all those baptized by the Apostles before Christ's death, should not have been Christians, which were wickedness to think, when the Scripture affirmeth that they not only lived by faith, but did all those wonders by virtue of their faith in Christ, and that they all enjoyed the promises; and therefore it must necessarily follow they were Christians, as all believing in Christ and living and dying in that faith. So that howsoever they had not the name of Christians and were not so called which makes nothing against the reality of the thing, for we contend not about words, yet they were all true Christians, they being all built upon that Corner stone and upon the foundation Jesus Christ, and differing nothing for the essence and substance or object of their faith from any that did succeed them in all ages to come.

And therefore I. S. affirming that by the baptism of John the believers then were not made Christians, and that the Israelites Baptized by Moses in the cloud were no Christians, overthrows the holy Scriptures and gives Christ the lie, and confutes Paul himself who in the 10. of the 1 of the Cor. ver. 1. 2. 3. affirms, that our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the Sea and were all baptized by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea, and all eat the same spiritual meat, and did all drink the same spiritual drink (for they all drank of the same spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ) by the which testimony of the Apostle they were as good Christians: as the Corinthians; for he comparing them together, showeth that they were equal to them in privileges, and were as good Christians as they, according to that of Peter Acts the 15. verse. 9. and put no difference between us and them purifying their hearts by faith; & as he had proved that the Israelites were equal in Privileges with the Corinthians, and all other Christians, so he declareth likewise if the Corinthians and all other Christians did offend against God as the Israelites did, they should likewise be equal to them in punishments: For God was no respector of persons, but as inevery nation he that feareth God & worketh righteousness is accepted of him, Acts 10. ver. 35: so whatsoever Christians, of what Nation so ever, whether Iewer or Gentiles shall offend as the Israelites did, they shall be equally punished. So that by the witness and testimony of Paul in this tenth chapter of the 1 of the Cor. and the 11. of the Hebrews, and from the above cited Scriptures all our fathers under the cloud and all the Patriarchs, and all those Martyrs, and all those that were baptized by the Baptist and Christ Disciples, were all as good Christians as any Baptized after Christ's death or now by those of the Congregational way or any Christians in the world; and all that I here say is most true if any belief may be given to the holy Word of God. And therefore I. S. affirming the contrary blasphemeth. And now I come to his fourth Argument. Which is this.

The learned and judicious know (saith he) that John was but the Messenger before Christ Mal. 3. ver. 1. And his baptism was but as the streaming of light in the Heavens before the day, and he did only bring and restore all things to their legal perfection by water, the element of the law; but Christ Jesus he comes and Baptizes with fire, consummats all things with this transforming powerful element, even his spirit, Thus I. S. speaketh.

To examine all the errors in these words, would take up much time, and require a large discourse, but I study brevity. As for the first part of this his answer, where he saith, the learned and Judicious know, that John was but the Messenger before Christ, &c. it is a piece of vanity in him to produce the testimony of men to prove that John was a Messenger of Christ, when the holy Scripture in many places assertsit, and when Christ himself hath declared that John the Baptist was that Elias that was foretold should prepare the way before the Lord and make his paths straight: but this I may truly say of I. S. that he is a mere stranger in all good learning and as ignorant in all Divinity and in the holy Word of God, as those judicious he speaks of, were singularly excellent and mighty in the Scriptures and all sound theology, whose works and godly solid writings, if ever he had read with understanding, he could never have been so prodigiously blasphemous as he is in all his discourse and chiefly in these his answers: for there is not any one of them in which there is not great impiety to be discovered: as in this to accuse John's Baptism and Ministry of imperfection, and to say they were but as the streamingsoflight in the Heavens before the day, when notwithstanding Christ himself hath often given so many honorable testimonies of John, and his Ministry, saying in the 5. of John 32. that he bare witness of him, and that his witness was true, and in the 35. ver. in express words affirming that he was a burning and shining light, and that the Jews for a season did rejoice in his light. And yet I. S. boldly and peremptorily affirmeth that the Baptism of John was but as the streamings of light, and that they were not consummate Christians that were baptized by him. Who shall we believe? I. S. or Jesus Christ? Christ saith John was a burning and shining light. I. S. saith he was but as the streaming of light; if this be not to give Christ the lie, I know not what it is! Christ in the seventh chapter of Luke and the 28. verse, saith, That John the Baptist was the greatest Prophet that was ever borne of women. Then, he was inferior in his Ministry to none of them, no not to Moses himself, of whom the author to the Hebrews chap. 3. verse. 5. saith with a verily, that he was faithful in all the house of God as a servant for a testimony of those things that were to be spoken after. Now if Moses did his work perfectly, as he did, and baptized those perfectly in the Cloude and in the sea as Paul asserteth 1 Cor. 10. and did all he did in perfection and according to the pattern shown him in the Mount and according to the will of God, and did perfectly consummate his Ministry, then John the Baptist also did the like, for Christ saith that amongst those that are borne of women, there is not a greater Prophet then John the Baptist: that is there was not one more faithful and that did his work more completely and with more perfection: which Christ's own words in the third of Matthew do yet more fully declare verse. 15. saying suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Now if the Baptist did fulfill all righteousness in his Ministry, then he did it completely and made those that were baptized by him perfect, complete and consummated Christians; for he in his Office, fulfilled all righteousness; if therefore there were any imperfection (as I. S. saith) in the Baptism and Ministry of John, then he did not fulfill all righteousness, and then Christ's words should not be true, which is a high point of blasphemy to think, much more to say and print as I. S. doth: for he that fulfills all righteousness in his Office doth it perfectly and completely, but John did so: ergo all those that he baptized were complete Christians. I demand therefore of I. S. my brother Burton and of all the Independents, whether Christ was well baptized, or no by John the Baptist? I presum they will not deny but that he was perfectly baptized. And if Christ himself was well baptized, then all that were baptized by John were also well baptized and were perfect and complete Christians, for John was sent of God to baptize; and he obeyed God's command in this his Ministry, and in that also fulfilled all righteousness, and therefore all those that were baptized by John & by the Apostles before Christ's death and ascension, were as perfect Christians as any that were baptized after Christ's resurrection; and if they were not well baptized then Christ was not well baptized, which were high impiety to affirm; neither will I ever be induced to believe, that John the Baptist did not know as well how to make complete Christians, as I. S. or as any of the Independent Ministers; for I know John was sent of God for this work, and that he fulfilled all righteousness in it, and I know also that he was faithful in his Ministry to the death, and feared not the face of Herod nor of any Mortall creature: for all this the Scripture ascertanieth unto me; but that our Independent Ministers were ever sent of God, and bid to set up their new lights and to preach, up their congregational way or a toleration of all Religions, I doubt it. For first I know that they ran back-ward, and forward, to and fro, before they were ever sent, and that they preach that they were never commanded from God, and that when they should have preached andstood to witness the truth, many of them ran away and deserted it and did not stand to it as John the Baptist did, but like those hirelings Christ speaks of, John the tenth, when they saw the Wolf coming, cowardly ran away, and left their poor flocks to the fury of those beasts and many of them now have left their flocks in the wilderness and have deserted their charges contrary to the command of God Acts 20. verse. 28. who saith by the Apostle Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the holy Ghost hath made you Bishops, to feeds the Church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. In all these respects, and many more that I could name, I greatly doubt whether the Independent Ministers were ever sent of God: but for John, I know he was, and I know in like manner that he fulfilled all righteousness in his Ministry, and made those he Baptized perfect Christian; I know likewise that he made innumerable multitudes of them, and that Jerusalem came out and was Baptized also, which when I. S. denieth I assert he is a wicked and blasphemous fellow, and that if he had his due deserts, he ought to be spewed not only out of their seven new churches here in London, but out of all their several new fangled congregations through the Kingdom as an Alien and stranger from the common-wealth of all learning and goodness. And this shall suffice to have spoke to the fourth learned answer. I now come to the fifth as good as the rest; his words are these.

So far was it (saith he) that all that were Baptized by John, were made Christians, that even John's own Disciples (who had the best and frequentest instruction) not only hesitated, but were right down scandalized at the true Messias John 3. ver. 26. and others did under the form of John's baptism, fight against the true baptism and baptizer the Lord Jesus. So that I conceive (saith he) this Argument (were it granted that all the people received John's baptism) will stand in little stead to prove the conclusion, viz: that they were made Christians, much less cast into a Church mould, according to the New Testament form, and least of all that they were all members of one Christian Church at Jerusalem. These are his formal expressions, by which he laboreth to prove, that those that were baptized by John the Baptist were no Christians; in these his words there is a double Argument by which he endeavors to unchristian all those that were Baptized by the Baptist. The first is, because as he falsely supposeth they were enemies of Christ. The second is in that they were not rightly molded. So that in this his last Paragraffe or Section, we have two Arguments together. Which being added to the former make up six in all, by which the profound disputant J. S. unchurches and unchristi • ns all those that were baptized by John. Now because I. S. and his complices do place so much strength in these two last Arguments, I shall desire the reader the more seriously to weigh and consider them with the conclusions deduced from them by I. S. and my reply to them.

First whereas he denieth that all that were baptized by John were made Christians, as it is a begging of the question, so in his thus speaking he overthrows the whole Ministry of John the Baptist, and contradicts the Holy Scriptures, and all those places I quoted out of them in my former reply; and which is more, he contradicteth himself: for he confesseth that John Baptized in to Christ, and he baptized none, as all the Independents acknowledge, but believers; therefore they were Christians by his own confession; and yet here as often formerly he denieth they were Christians. But because I have spoke of this before, I will now come to his reasons. His first reason, to prove they were not Christians, is, because (saith he) John's own Disciples (who had the best and frequentest instruction) not only hesitated, that is doubted, but were right down scandalized at the Messiah. The second is because others did under the form of John's Baptism, fight against the true baptism and the Baptizer the Lord Jesus. These his reasons, I affirm, are nothing else but a mere calumny, and a false accusation, and to speak the truth, are but his own wicked and groundless surmises; and if every man, from his own fictious and fond conceits, and supposed premises, may take the liberty thus to vent himself, I know no truth in the whole word of God, but may be called in question, yea overthrown and I know no Christians nor Saints but may at any time be unsainted and unchristianed. Our Savior Christ in the 7. of Luke, verse. 32, 33, 34. compareth those of his time, unto little children sitting in the market place, and calling one to another, and saying; we have piped unto you, and you have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not wept; for John the Baptist came neither eating bread, nor drinking wine, and ye say he hath a Devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking, and ye say, behold a gluttonous man, and a wine Bibber, afriend of Publicans and Sinners. But wisdom is justified of all her children. By which words of our Savior we see nothing could please the Gentlemen of his time.

Now if ever there were an age in the world, or company of men in it, that might be compared to these little children, then this of ours, and the people in it, especially the Independents may be, who are pleased with nothing, and can least of all endure any Uniformity in the Church, against which they professedly both write and preach, and as those in our Savior's days did speak against the Ministry of John the Baptist, and against Christ himself; so at this very day amongst us, there are many that make nothing of the Ministry of John, professing they take no notice of those that were baptized by him or Christ's disciples, and I. S. peremptorily affirmeth, that those that were baptized by him were no Christians, and that his Ministry was imperfect; and therefore I conceive all men will judge, that the Independents may well be compared to those of Christ's time, who unchurch all but themselves. But saith I. S. they were John's own Disciples that both doubted and hesitated, and were right down scandalized at the true Messias, and for proof of this his saying he produceth the 3. of John, verse. 26. I will therefore set down the words of the text with the forgoing verse, which will give some light to the business in hand, verse 25. Then there arose (saith the Evangelist) a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying, and they came unto John and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold the same baptizeth and all men come to him. These are the words out of which I. S. grounds all his accusation against John's Disciples, by which he would prove them no Christians. But if men would but duly weigh and examine the text, they will easily perceive, there is not so much as a very similitude of the illation and consequence I. S. infers from thence. For first the question there started, was not between John's Disciples and Christ's, but between the Disciples of John and the Jews, that is between the Scribes and Pharisees and John's Disciples, who were enemies of John the Baptist as well as of Christ, and therefore questioned all they did, ever and anon asking John and Christ by what authority they preached and did those things they did. And so here the Jews, they questioned with John's Disciples concerning his Ministry, (as by all conjecture it may be gathered) & about legal purifications, of which they were very studious and great observers, to which the Pharisees had added many of their own, as we may see, Matth, the 15. and Mark the 7. and therefore they contended with John's Disciples about purifying, supposing, that there was no need of John's baptism and washing, seeing they had so much rinsing and purifying already amongst them. So that it seems the contention between the Jews and John's Disciples arose upon this, that John's Disciples much magnified the Baptism of their Master, and the Jews and Pharisees, they extolled as much their Purifications, thinking them necessary to salvation, which error of the Jews, notwithstanding, had often by the Prophets been confuted, as in Isa. 1. and many other places. Now John, that he might revoke all men from this error, that they should not rest in corporal washings and in outward performances, exhorts them to look unto Christ, who was the truth of which all those ceremonies were but the shadows and were all fulfilled in him, and therefore that they should by faith wholly rely upon him for salvation as the sequel of the chapter doth sufficiently show. Now in the heat of this dispute, the Evangelist relateth in the 26. verse, that they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou bearest witness, behold the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. Out of which words I see no reason why I. S. should gather, that John's Disciples not only hesitated, but were right down scandalized at the true Messias, but I see very good ground, why the contrary may be concluded; if they were John's Disciples and that they dearly esteemed Christ and much honored him rather then that they were offended with him.