The Due Right of Presbyteries

may be dissolved: as the Burgess ticket whereby a man hath right to all the city privileges may remain, when the man for some crime committed against the city hath lost all his city privileges and is not now a free citizen, in which case his Burgess ticket sealeth nothing to him: so baptism sealeth not actual membership in case of excommunication, yet remaineth baptism valid in the acts of sealing other things. As for Schismatics who only for Schism are out of the Church, and do hold no erroneous point of doctrine, and are not yet convinced, they are yet members of the visible Church, as Morton saith from Gerson, as also Glorianus; but he who is casten out as a Schismatic, is in the same case with an excommunicate person.

Lastly, baptism is not a privilege of a particular visible Church only; nor doth the place of 1 Cor. 12. verse. 13. mean of the visible parishional Church of Corinth, but of the whole visible Church of Jew and Gentile, bond and free, as the words do bear.

In this discourse three things must be discussed, 1. With what Church retaining the doctrine of fundamentals, we are to remain. 2. Whether our separation from Rome be not warrantable. 3. Whether we may lawfully separate from true Churches, for the sins of the Churches. 1 Cor. 3. 11. Another foundation can no man lay, then that which is laid, Jesus Christ. Hence Jesus Christ is the foundation of faith real or personal, and the knowledge of Christ is the dogmatical foundation of faith, Upon this foundation some build gold, that is, good doctriae: some hay and stubble, that is, as Calvin faith, curious doctrine, Pareus, vain and frivolous doctrine. We are to distinguish betwixt articles of faith, or res fidei, matters of faith, and fundamental points of faith. Matters of faith I reduce to three. 1. Fundamental points. 2. Supra-fundamentalia, superstructions •• illed upon fundamentals. 3. Circa-fundamentalia, things about ma • ers of Faith; for praeter fundamentalia, things indifferent and besides the foundation in matters of Religion, and moral carriage, I acknowledge none; fundamentals are the vital and noble parts or the soul of Divinity. The ignorance of fundamentals condemneth, which is to be understood two ways. 1. The Ignorance of fundamentals, such as are supernatural fundamentals, condemneth all within the visible Church as a sin; but it doth not formally condemn those who are without the visible Church, Job. 15. 22. It only maketh those who are without the Church incurable, but doth not formally condemn them: as medicine not known, and so not refused, maketh sick men incurable, as a loss, but doth not kill them as a sin. 2. Superstructures, which by consequence, arise from fundamentals, are fundamentals by consequent and secondarily; as the second rank of stones that are immediately laid upon the foundation, are a foundation in respect of the higher parts of the wall, and therefore are materially fundamental: and the ignorance of these virtually condemn, and the denying of such, by consequence is a denying of the foundation.

Things about the foundation, circa fundamentalia, are all things revealed in the word of God, as all Histories, Miracles, Chronol • gie, things anent Orion, the Pleiades, the North stars, Job 38. 31. 32. That Paul left his cloakc at Troas. The knowledge of these is considered three ways. 1. As necessary, by necessity of a mean, necessitate medii, and the knowledge; so is not necessary to salvation, many are in glory (I doubt not) who lived in the visible Church, and yet knew never that Sampson killed a Lion; but the knowledge of all these is necessary, necessitate praecepti, because all in the visible Church are obliged to know these things, therefore the ignorance of these only doth not actually condemn, but virtually and by demerit lead to condemnation. 2. This knowledge is considered as commanded in the excellency thereof, and so error and bad opinions about these are sinfully ill, though in the regenerate, by accident, such errors condemn not, where the foundation is holden. 3. The knowledge of these is considered as commanded and enjoined to us with the submission of faith; for the authority of God the Speaker, and the malicious opposing of these is a fundamental error, not formally, but by evident consequent, for though the matter of these errors be not fundamental, yet the malicious opposing of these is a fundamental error against this principle [What ever God saith is true;] but God saith there were eight souls in the Ark of Noah. Hence because the historiall things of Scripture and things about the foundation, as that Paul purified himself with the Jews, Act. 21. that Paul rebuked Peter, Gal. 2. is no less true, because God hath so spoken in his Word, then this fundamental point [Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners] it is clear that the specifice and essential form of a fundamental article is not taken from the authority of God speaking in the Word, (seeing God's authority is one and the same in all that he speaketh) but from the influence that the knowledge of an article hath to unite us to God in Christ, and bring us to salvation. And secondly, it will follow that this [Thou shalt not by the use of things indifferent kill him for whom Christ died] and the like be no less fundamental, by evident consequent, in respect it is spoken by God's own authority, then articles of our faith, Thirdly, it followeth that formalists ignorantly divide matters of God's worship, into matters of Faith, or points fundamental, and things indifferent, as if many Scriptural truths were not to be found in God's Word, such as the miracles of Moses, and Elias, the journeys of Paul, which are neither matters fundamental, nor yet things indifferent. Fourthly, many things may be fundamental, by consequent, to one who can read the Word, and heareth it read, which is not by consequent fundamental to a rude and ignorant man.

The knowledge of points fundamental is necessary. 1. To obtain salvation. 2. To keep communion with a true Church; for we are to separate from a Church subverting the foundation and laying another foundation. Fundamentalls are restricted by many to the Creed of Athanasius, and Gregorius Nazimzen, and Cyrillus of Jerusalem, to the Apostles Creed; (as it is called) others reduce all fundamentals to the famous Creeds of Ni • e, of Constantinople, of Ephesus, of Chalced • n; Estius restricteth fundamentals to things necessary for the well ordering of our life; Davenantius saith better, That such are fundamental, the knowledge whereof is simply necessary to salvation, i • ignorance whereof doth condemn. Doctor Potter calleth them P • ime and capital doctrines of our Religion, or of that faith which essentially constituteth a true Church, and a true Christian; which is good, but that he contradivideth from these things not fundamental, which may be disputed on either side, and cannot be determined by the Word of God, and must lie under a [non liquet] is his error. Yet he may know that Bellarmine saith right many things are of faith, (and clear in Scripture, as historical relations) which are not fundamental. Cameron, and a greater Divine then Cameron Dom. Beza reduceth all fundamentals to things which necessarily belongeth to faith and obedience: and great Calvin retrincheth fundamentals within the Apostles Creed: Occam will have the militant (Catholic) Church always explicitly or expressly beleevings things necessary to salvation: and our Divines teach that the Catholic Church cannot err in fundamentals: they mean with pertinancy and obstinacy. 2. In all fundamentals. 3. Totally and finally. But we are not to believe Papists, who say things are fundamental, materially in themselves, as all points necessary to be believed, but things are not formally fundamental, but such things only as the Church d • fineth to be fundamental. But 1. the foundation of our Faith is God's Word, and God's Word is necessary to be believed to salvation, whether the Church define it or no: to abstain from Idolatry is necessary to be believed, though Aaron and the Church of Israel say the contrary, neither doth God's Word borrow authority from men. 2. If the Church may make points to be fundamental by their definition, whereas before they were not fundamental, then may the Church make articles of faith; Sure I am Paipsts, as Gerson, Occam, Almaine, Suarez, yea and a very Bellarmine is against this. Yea and by that same reason they may make fundamental points to be no fundamental points, and they may turn the Apostles Creed into no faith at all, for ejusdem est potestos creare & annihilare. 3. There cannot be a greater power in the Church, to define Articles of faith, then is in God himself; but the very authority of God doth not define a matter to be an article of faith, except the necessity of the matter so require, for God hath determined in his word, that Paul left his cloak at Treas, but that Paul left his cloak at Troas, is not (I hope) an article of faith, or a fundamental point of salvation. 4. What can the Church do, (saith Vincentius Lyrinens.) but declare that that is to be believed, which before in it self was to be believed: and Bellarmine saith, Councils maketh nothing to be of infallible verity, and so doth Scotus say, Verity before heresies (erat de fide) was a matter of faith, though it was not declared to be so by the Church: Determinatio non facit vertatem, saith O • cam, The Churches determination maketh no truth. 3. The evidence of knowledge of fundamentals is gravely to be considered. Hence these distinctions.

1. One may believe that Christ is the Son of God by a Divine faith, as Peter doth, Matth. 16. 17. and yet doubt of the necessary consequences fundamental. Ergo, Christ must be delivered into the hands of sinners, and be crucified, as the same Peter doubted of this: for as one may fall in a grievous sin, though regenerated, and fail in act, and yet remain in grace, in habitu, the seed of God remaining in him; so may Peter and the Apostles doubt of a fundamental point of Christ's rising from the dead, John 20. v 8, 9. in an act of weakness, and yet have saving faith in Christ, as it is like many of of the Saints at Corinth denied an article of their Faith, the rising again of the dead: one act of unbelief maketh not an infidel.

2. Dist. A simple Papist and a Lutheran not well educated doth believe upon the same former ground, that Christ is true man, & hath an habitual faith of this article, that Jesus Christ is truly the Son of David, & yet holdeth transubstantiation, or consubstantiati • , that Christ's body is in many sundry places in heaven, and earth, on this side of the Sea, & beyond Sea, yet the conn • xion betwixt Christ's humanity and this monster of transubstantiation not being possible, all the error may be merely philosophick, that the extension of quantitative parts without or beyond part, is not the essence of a quantitative body; while as the rude man believeth firmly that Christ is true man, and so believeth contradictory things by good consequence; therefore the quality of the conscience of the believer is to be looked into, since fundamental heresy is essentially in the mind, and pertinency and self-conviction doth inseparably follow it. 1. There is a conscience simply doubting of fundamental points, this may be with a habit of sound faith. 2. A scrupulous conscience which from light grounds is brangled about some fundamental points, and this is often in sound believers, who may and do believe, but with a scruple. 3. A conscience believing opinions and conjecturing and guessing, as in Atheists, this is damnable; but where obstinacy is, as defending with pertinancy transubstantiation, and that it is lawful to adore bread, this pertinacious defending of Idolatry doth infer necessarily, that the faith of the article of Christ's humanity is but false and counterfeit, and not saving.

3. Dist. There is a certitude of adherence formal, and a certitude of adherence virtual. A certitude of adherence formal is, when one doth adhere firmly to the faith of fundamentals. A certitude of adherence virtual is, when with the formal adherence to some fundamental points, there is an ignorance of other fundamental points, and yet withal a gracious disposition and habit to believe other fundamentals, when they shall be clearly revealed out of the word, so Luke 24. Christ exponed the resurrection, and the articles of Christ's sufferings and glorification, verse. 25, 26, 27. to the Disciples who doubted of these before, and yet had saving faith of other fundamental points, Matth. 16. 17. 18.

4. Hence there be two sorts of fundamentals, some principally and chiefly so called, even the elements and beginning of the doctrine of Christ, as Credenda, things to be believed in the Creed, the object of our faith; and p • tenda, things that we ask of God, expressed in the Lord's Prayer, the object of our hope specially. 2. Agenda, things to be done, contained in the decalogue, the object of our love to God and our brethren; Others are so secondarily fundamental, or less fundamentals, as deduced from these; yea there be some artcles of the Creed principally fundamental, these all are explicitly to be believed, noted by Vigilius Martyr, and Pareus: as that Christ died and rose again, &c. Other Articles are but modi articulorum fundamentalium, and expositions and evident determinations of clear articles: As Christ's incarnation, and taking on our flesh is explained by this, conceived of the holy Ghost, and borne of the Virgin Mary; the death and suffering of Christ is exponed by subordinate articles, as that he suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, &c. and these lesser fundamentals are to be believed, necessitate praecepti, because God commandeth them, but happily non necessitate medii. It is possible many be in glory who believe not explicitly, but only in the disposition of the mind, (as some are baptized, in voto, in their desire only) these lesser fundamentals, it is enough they have the faith of non-repugnancy, or negative adherence to these, so as they would not deny them, if they had been proponed to them in a distinct and clear way.

5. The faith of fundamentals is implicit three ways. 1. In respect of the degree of believing. 2. In respect of the object. 3. In respect of the subject, or our adherence to things believed. In respect of degrees the faith is implicit and weak three ways, as Calvin may teach. 1. Because we are ignorant of some less fundamentals. 2. Because we see in a mirror and imperfectly. 3. In respect of believing upon a false ground, as for miracles. In respect of the object, the certainty is most sure, as sure as that God cannot lie.

In respect of our adherence of understanding and affections; in this respect the knowledge of fundamentals must be certain. 1. By a negative certitude which excludeth doubting, and so Pastor and people must have a certitude of fundamentals, as Rom. 14, 5. Col. 1. 9. Heb. 5. 12. but for a positive certitude there is not that measure required in a teacher that is in a scholar, for all the body cannot be an eye, 1 Cor. 12. 17. yet is a Christian certitude and fullness of persuasion required even of all Christians, Colos. 2. 2. Colos. 3. 16. highest and greatest in its kind, though many may be saved with less, yet a distinct knowledge of fundamentals in all is not necessary by a necessity of the means, necessitate medii, as Beza and Doctor Ames teach.

There is a faith of fundamentals implicit in respect of the will and affections which Papists make a wide faith, as the J • u • e Becanus think to believe these two fundamentals, 1. That there is a God. 2. That this God hath a providence con ••• ning men's salvation, though other particulars be not known. Or implicit faith is, saith Estius, when any is ready to believe what the Church shall teach; which faith (Suarez saith) though it include ignorance, yet keepeth men from the danger of errors, because it doth submit the mind to the nearest rule of teaching, to wit, to the Church; the knowledge of fundamentals in this sense doth not save, but condemn. Thomas saith better then he.

6. Dist. They are not alike who believe fundamental here • ies. 2. And who defend them. 3. And who teach them, and obtrude them upon the consciences of others. For the first, many believe fundamental errors who are ignorant of them, and do think that they firmly adhere to Christian Religion, O • cam termeth such, haereticos nescientes, ignorant heretics, as the Marcionites, and the Manicheans, and these the Church should tolerate while they be instructed. It is true the Jesuit Meratius saith, When many things are proposed to the understanding for one and the same formal reason, to wit, for divine authority, the understanding cannot embrace one but it must embrace all, nor •• ject one, but it must reject all, which is true of a formal malicious rejecting; the Manichean believeth nothing because God saith it, and hath faith sound and saving in nothing, but it is not true of an actual or virtual contempt, in one or two fundamentals, because believers out of weakness, ignorance, and through strength of temptation may doubt of one fundamental, as the Disciples doubted of the resurrection, Joh. 20. 9. and yet in habit believe all other fundamentals, but the Church is to correct such as profess fundamental heresies, and to cast out of the Church seducers and deceivers.

7. Dist. It is one thing to hate a fundamental point, as that [Christ is consubstantial with the Father] as the Arians do, and another thing, by consequence to subvert a fundamental point, as Papists by consequence deny Christ to be true man, while they hold the wonder of Transubstantiation, yet do not they hate this conclusion formally [that Christ is true man.]

8. Dist. Though it were true which Doctor Christo. Potter saith, If we put by the Points wherein Christians differ one from another, and gather into one body the rest of the articles, wherein they all gnerallaly agree, we should find in these propositions, which without all controversy are universally received in the whole Christian world, so much truth is contained, as being joined with holy obedience may be sufficient io bring a man to everlasting salvation. I say, though this were true, yet will it not follow that these few fundamentals received by all Christians, Papists, Lutherans, Arians, Verstians, Sabellians, Maccdonians, Nestorians, Eutychanes, Socinians, Anabaptists, Treithitae, Antitrinitarii (for all these be Christians and validely baptized) do essentially constitute a true Church, and a true Religion. Because all Christians agree that the old and New Testament is the truth and Word of God, and the whole faith of Christian Religion is to be found in the Old Testament, acknowledged both by Jews and Christians; for that is not the Word of God indeed in the Old Testament, which the Jews say is the Word of God in the Old Testament. Yea the old and New Testament, and these few unc • n •• averted points received universally by all Christians are not God's Word, as all these Christians expone them, but the dreams and fancies of the Jews saying, that the Old Testament teacheth that Christ the Messiah is not yet come in the flesh, the Treithitae say there be three God's, yet are the Treithitae Christians in the sense of Doctor Potter: so that one principal as that There is one God, and Christ is God and man, and God is noely to be adored, not one of these are uncontraverted, in respect every society of Sectaries have contrary expositions upon these common fundamentals, and so contrary Religions. Who doubteth but all Christians will subscribe and swear with us Protestants the Apostolic Creed but will it follow that all Christians are of one true Religion, and do believe the same fundamentals? now these fundamentals are the object of faith according as they signify things. To us and to the Treithitae this first Article (I believe in God) as I conceive doth not signify one and the same thing; now join this (I believe in God) with holy obedience as we expone it, and as the Treithitae expone it, it could never be a step to everlasting salvation; for it should have this meaning, (I believe there is one only true God, and that there be also three God's) and what kind of obedience joined with a faith made up of contradictions, can be available to salvation? 3. One general Catechize and confession of faith made up of the commonly received and agreed upon fundamentals, would not make us nearer peace, though all Christians should swear and subscribe this common Christian Catechize, no more then if they should swear and subscribe the old and New Testament, as all Christians will do, and this day doth.

9. Disl. Though the knowledge of fundamentals be necessary to salvation, yet it cannot easily be defined, what measure of knowledge of fundamentals, and what determinate number of fundamentals doth constitute a true visible Church, and a sound believer, as the learned Voetius saith.

Hence 1. They are saved, who soundly believe all fundamentals materially, though they cannot distinctly know them, under the reduplication of fundamentals, nor define what are fundamentals, what not.

2. Though a Church retain the fundamentals, yet if we beforced to avow and believe as truth, doctrines everting the foundation of faith, against the article of one God; if we must worship as many God's as there be hosties, if Christ's Kingly, Priestly, and Prophetical office be overturned, as we were forced in Popery to do, we are to separate from the Church in that case.

Answ. It followeth not, for the knowledge of fundamentals is only, that we may know what is a necessary mean of salvation, without which none can be saved, notwithstanding, he who groweth not, and is not led on to perfection, never laid hold on the foundation Christ; nor are we hence taught to seek no more, but so much knowledge of fundamentals, as may bring as to heaven, that is an abuse of this Doctrine. 2. Robinson faith fundamental truths are holden and professed by as vile heretics as ever were since Christ's days, a company of excommunicates may hold, teach and defend fundamental truths, yet are they not a true Church of God?

Answ. Papists hold fundamentals, and so do Jews hold all the Old Testament and Papists hold both new and old, but we know they so hold fundamentals, that by their doctrine they overturn them; and though there be fundamentals taught in the Popish Church, which may save if they were believed, yet they are not a true and ministerial Church simply, because, though they teach, that there is one God, they teach also there is a thousand God's whom they adore, and though they teach, there is one Mediator, yet do they substitute infinite Mediators with and besides Christ, so that the truth is, not a formal, ministerial and visible active external calling is in the Church of Rome, as it is a visible Church, in the which we can safely remain, though fundamentals be safe in Rome, and the books of the old and New Testament be there, yet are they not there ministerially as in a mother whose breasts we can suck; for fundamental points falsely exponed, cease to be fundamental points, yea as they be ministerially in Rome, they be destructive of the foundation, though there be some ministerial acts valid in that Church, for the which the Church of Rome is called a true Church, 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 , in some respect, according to something essential to the true Church, yet never sine adjecto, as if it were a true Church, where we can worship God. Fundamentalls are safe in Rome materially in themselves, so as some may be saved who believe these fundamentals; but fundamentals are not safe in Rome, Ecclesiastice, Ministeraliter, Pastoraliter, in a Church way, so as by believing these from their chairs so exponed, they can be saved who do believe them. 2. Out of which we may have the doctrine of faith and salvation as from a visible mother, whose daughters we are. Some say the fundamentals amongst Lutherans are exponed in such a way as the foundation is everted? I answer, There is a twofold eversion of the foundation. 1. One Theological, Moral and Ecclesiastic, as the doctrine of the Council of Trent, which is in a ministerial way, with professed obstinacy against the fundamental truths rightly exponed, and such an eversion of the foundation maketh the Popish Church no Church truly visible, whose breasts we can suck. But for Lutherans, their subversion of the foundation by philosophick consequences without professed hatred to the fundamentals, and that not in an Ecclesiastic and Ministerial way, doth not so evert the fundamentals, as that they be no visible Church. The learned Pareus showeth that there be no difference betwixt us and Lutherans in heads absolutely necessary to salvation, the dissention is in one point only anent the Lord's Supper, not in the whole doctrine thereof, but in a part thereof, not necessary for salvation. There were divisions between Paul and Ba • nabas, betwixt Cyprim an African Bishop, and Stephanus Bishop of Rome, anent baptism of heretics, which Cyprian rejected as no baptism; betwixt Basilius Magnus and Eusebius Ce • ariensis, because Basilius stood for the Emperor Va • ns his power in Church matters; so was there dissention betwixt Augustine and Hier • nimus anent the ceremonies of the Jews, which Hyeronymus thought might be retained to gain the Jews; so there was also betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostom anent the books of Orig • n. The Orthodox believers agreed with the Novations against the Arians anent the 〈 in non-Latin alphabet 〉 ; the consubstantialitie of Christ; and though excommunicate persons defend and hold all fundamentals sound, and so may be materially a true Church, yet because their profession is no profession, but adenying of the power of godliness, they cannot be formally a visible Church, but are for scandals casten out of the visible Church.

Answ. Such are materially not the visible Church and have not a profession, and are to be taught, and if they willfully remain in that darkness are to be cast out.

Answ. This is a special ground that deceiveth the Separatists, their ignorance (I mean) of the visible Church, for the visible Church consisteth essentially neither of such as be truly faithful, nor of such as must be falsely faithful; for the ignorant man seeth not that the visible Church includeth neither faith, nor unbelief in its essence or definition. It is true, to the end that professors may be members of the invisible Church, they must be believers, & must believe, except they would be condemned eternally; but to make them members of the visible Church neither believing nor unbelieving is essential, but only a profession ecclesiastically in tear, that is not scandalous & visibly & apparently lewd and flagitious, such as was the profession of Simon Magus, when he was baptized with the rest of the visible Church, Act. 8. And God indeed requireth of us true worship and ready obedience, as he saith, but not that a visible Church should be defined by true and sincere obedience: for essentials only are taken in a definition, and casual corruptions are only accidental to Churches, and fall out through men's faults, and therefore should not be in the definition either of a visible or an invisible Church; nor should ready and sincere obedience which is a thing invisible to men's eyes, be put in the definition of a visible Church, for it is accidental to a visible Church, and nothing invisible can be essential to that which essentially is visible; the visible Church is essentially visible. Anent separation from Rome we hold these Propositions.

1. Profession consistetly not only in a public ministerial avowing of the truth, but also in writing, suffering for the truth, and death-bed-confessions of the truth; These worthy men in their own bowels, as Occam, Petrarcha, Gerson, Mirandula, these who in their death bed renewed confidence in merits, Saints, Images, were the true Church, and the other side the false Church, all the Churches of Asia excommunicated by Victor, as Bellarmine saith and Binius; Pope Stephen then and his Council denying communion to Cyprian and fourscore of Bishops must be the Separatists, and Cyprians and his adherents the true Church. 2. In this division we are united to the true Apostolic, to the ancient Church, to the true ancient Church of Rome, which opposed the Apostate Church of Rome, but an immediate and personal adherence to, and union with the ancient Church is not essential to a visible Church.

Answ. 1. It is good that Robinson with the interpreters doth acknowledge, that Paul forbiddeth communicating with unbelievers a • Idol feasts, as the place will command us to separate from the Mass Service, and therein let it be that he inferreth a general; Ergo, you are to separate from all the worship of the Gentiles Idols, and are not to be mixed with them in their service, which they give to their false gods: but this is not the general which includeth separation from a Church, in the service of a true God, the service being lawful, and only evil to some worshippers and by accident, because they eat to themselves damnation, but not damnation to others.

Answ. 1. Christ shown to the Disciples that they were an unclean society, and that one had a devil, and therefore though they knew not the man by name who had the devil, they knew the society to have a devil, and to be unclean, for that one man his cause, and so neither Christ nor his Disciples should have taken part with the evils, and the Prayers and sacrifices of the wicked, for in so doing they acknowledge that they have commune right and interest in the holy things of God, with some who have a devil, and with an unclean society; but you cannot condemn Christ and the Disciples communicating at that Supper.

2. Though the scandalous person be not convicted of the scandal, that doth make the scandal more grievous and heinous to the scandalous person, in that he dare remain in a sin, though he be convicted of his guiltiness by the Church, but it doth not make the persons scandal to be no scandal, and no uncleanness at all; for magis & minus non variant speciem, more or less of sin doth not vary the nature of sin: now if Paul will the Corinthians to meet together to eat the Lord's body, as he doth, 1 Cor. 11. and know that there be amongst them carnal men, such as go to Law with their brethren before Infidels, such as deny the resurrection, such as come drunk to the Lord's Supper, though they be not convicted of these sins by the Church, yet if they be known to others, as Paul doth declare them in that Epistle, they must pollute the Lord's Table before the Church convict them, no less then after the Church hath convicted them, though the pollution may be more and greater after Church-conviction, then before, yet Paul willeth all the Corimbians to acknowledge their communion with the sins of the non-convicted, and with their abominable and wicked sacrifices and prayers, which none can teach or believe of the Apostle led by an infallible spirit, and therefore to communicate with them, is not to take part of their evils.

But I answer. 1. These who are baptized by one spirit unto one body, as all the visible Churches are, 1 Cor. 12. 13. & professedly hear one Word preached, do thereby acknowledge they have one communion, right and interest in these holy things, to wit, in a communion with Christ in remission of sins, and regeneration sealed in baptism, and in one common Savior, and common faith preached in the Gospel; and is this communion unlawful, and this fellowship a lying sign, because all baptized, and all hearing one Gospel, and that in an avowed profession, are not known to be regenerated? Then should no Infants be baptized, except they know all in the visible Congregation baptized with them to be regenerated also, for it is certain that we have a communion most inteare and visible with all who are baptized.

2. It is no inconvenient to profess that we are all one visible body in the Lord's Supper, 1 Cor. 10. 17. though we be not one invisible, true, and mystical, and redeemed body of Christ, as it is said, 1 Cor. 10. 2. That all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud, and in the Se • t, v. 3. and that all did eat the same spiritual meat, v. 4. and that all did drink the same spiritual drink, the rock Christ, yet did they not sin in this, and partake with the wicked in their • ills, to wit in their wicked prayers and sacrifices, because it is said, v. 3. God was not pleased with many of them in the Wilderness, because, v. 6. They lusted after evil things, and many of them were Idolaters, Epicures, fornicators, tempters of Christ, and mumurers, and there sell of them in one day twenty three thousand, v. 7. 89, 10, 11. And upon the same ground Paul saith in the same place, v. 16, 17. that we many (speaking of the Corinthians) are all 〈◊〉 • read, and one body, and yet v. 21. many of these were parta • ers of the Table and cup of the devils: and in the next Chapter, many came drunk to the Lord's Table, many did eat and drink their own damnation, and were stricken therefore of God with sickness and de • th, v. 18, 19, 20. 29, 30, &c. and yet v. 33. Paul charge • th them to come together to the Lord's Supper, so far is he from a shadow of separation. The Sacrament is a seal of their unity of one body, and is a Seal of their communion with Christ, v. 16. but all who receive the sign, have not a communion with Christ, nor are they all sealed, as one body mystical of Christ, only they are in profession by eating one bread, declared to be one body, and do become one body visible, and no question many make the Sacrament to themselves a lying sign, and a blaneke ordinance. But first, this is not the sin of such as do communicate with those, who receive the blaneke seal, and make the Sacrament to themselves a lying seal and damnation; for they are commanded to exaamine themselves, and so to eat, but they are not commanded to examine their fellow-communicants, and they are to judge themselves, but not to judge their fellow-communicants.

Answer 1. This maketh against the man, and the Churches of New England, for they admit constantly to the hearing of the word, and so to the prayers of the Church, those who are not received members of the visible Church: how can any godly man say Amen to the action of hearing the word, when it is jointly done by God's enemies? I prove the Antecedent, the unity of faith hearing one word of faith preached, Eph. 4. 5. maketh a visible body in profession, even as the joint partaking of one bread, and one cup in the Lord's Supper, maketh one body, by obsignation or sealing, 1 Cor. 10. 16, 17.

2. Division of hearts in hearing, while some follow Paul, some Apollo, some Cephas, maketh a schism and division in Christ's body, 1 Cor. 13. Ergo, in hearing one and the same word preached, there is a visible Church-union, for all division of that kind presupposeth a union, and unity in a visible incorporation.

3. 1 Cor. 14. 26. When ye come together (as one Church body) everyone of you hath a Psalm, hath a Doctrine, verse. 4. He that prophecieth edifiesh the Church, verse. 31. so ye may all prophecy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted, 35, it is shame for a woman to speak in the Church. Therefore the Saints meet together in one Church to be edified, and comforted by doctrine and hearing of the word, do all jointly perform an action of hearing and learning of the word of God, and are in that one Church, and one visible body, and called one Church, verse 4. 5. that the Church may receive edifying, verse 12. Seek that ye may excel (by prophesying) to the edifying of the Church, verse. 23. If therefore the whole Church come together, unto some place, &c. verse. 28. if there be not an interpreter, let him keep silence in the Church, verse 34, 35. And these who understand, are all to say, Amen, to that which is prophesied, verse 16, 17. And yet that action of hearing and saying Amen to the word preached, and to the prayers of the Church, is done by many unregenerated, who are yet in the state of enmity with God, as our Brethren grant, in that they do admit all to be a Church, and one Church hearing the word preached.

I answer, 1. This objection is no less against Paul and the word of God, then against us; for many enemies to God, whose hearts are rocky, thorny and stony ground, do hear the 〈◊〉 of God, and that by God's commandment, Matth. 13. verse. 2. 3, 4, 5. & c. The deaf and the blind are commanded to hear, Isaiah. 42. 18. Isaiah. 28. 9, 10. and these whom God hath covered with a spirit of slumber, are to hear the words of the sealed book, Isai. 29. 9. 10, 11. even those who stumble at the word, and fall, and are broken, Isaiah. 8. 14. 15, 16. 1 Pet. 2. v. 8. What godly man can say, Amen, to such a holy action, as is performed by God's enemies?

2. The godly say Amen to actions of God's worship two ways, 1. As it is the ordinance of God enjoined, and commanded, to the wicked and hypocrites, no less then to the godly, and we are to countenance their communicating, as we do their hearing of the word, and to join with them both, in our real and personal presence, and say Amen with them, as the Disciples gave their personal Amen, and their countenance and presence to a holy action at the last Supper, with one of their number, whom they knew to have a Devil, and to be a traitor, and dipped their hand in the dish with this man, after Christ had warned them, that there was such an one: but this is but to say Amen to the external worship, which is lawful, according to the substance of the act.

2. The godly may be throught to say Amen to the actions of worship performed by the enemies of God, by approving, allowing, and commending the manner of their performing the holy actions of God's worship, that is, they may be thought to approve the manner of their hearing and receiving the Sacraments, that is, when they approve their performing of those holy actions without faith, and with wicked hearts and hands, and when they allow that they eats their own damnation, thus no godly man can say Amen to holy actions performed by God's enemies, nor is our external communicating with them, a saying Amen to the wicked manner of receiving the seals, this is most unreasonable, and cannot be proved by God's word.

But Robinson will prove that in this place, 2 Cor. 6. the Lord forbiddeth communion not only with evil works of wicked men, but with their persons, and that he commandeth a separation, not only real, but personal.

Answer, If the man had formed a syllogism it should be a crooked proportion, if Paul allude to the marriage with insides, then as we are not to join with Pagans in lawful marriage, so neither with scand •• ous Christians in lawful worship. This connection is gratis said, and we deny it; But as we are not to marry with Pagans, so not to sit in their Idol-Temple, and to be present in their Idol-worship, else we were not to admit them, or their personal presence to the hearing of the word, contrary to yourselves and to 1 Cor. 14. 24, 25. So if because we are not to marry with them, we are not to be personally present with them, at the receiving of the Sacrament, neither at the hearing of the word, nor are we to be baptized, because Sim • n Magus, and many Hypocrites are baptized. 3. Local separation from Idol-worship, in the Idol-Temple, we teach as well as Robinson, but what then? he commandeth local and personal separation from all the professors of the truth, in the lawful worship of God, this we deny to follow.

Answer. 1. We deny not opposition of persons, and separation local from persons in Idol-worship, at an Idol-Table, but hence is not concluded personal separation from wicked men in the lawful worship of God. 2. This is for us, we are to separate from the persons; because the worship is unlawful, and Idol-worship, and therefore the contrary rather followeth, i • the worship were lawful, we would not separate, for remove the cause and the effect shall cease.

Answer, It is true, there is an unlawful communion of the faithful that is overseers and guides of the Church, to whom God hath committed the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, with excommunicated persons, in that they retain one worthy to be excommunicated in the bosom of the Church: but communion with the Church in the holy things of God, is not hence concluded to be unlawful, because the guides of the people communicate with that Church where the excommunicated person is suffered, it is the sin of the Church-guides, that an excommunicated person is not cast out, and that he is suffered to communicate at the Lord's Table, and to profane • , in not discerning the Lord's body, but it is not the sin of either guides or the people, to communicate at one Table with the excommunicated person, or him that deserveth to be excommunicated; for not casting out is one thing, and to communicate with the excommunicated in the true visible Church is another thing; the former is a sin, not to use the power that Christ hath given, but to communicate with the excommunicated person, is not a sin, but a remembering of the Lord's death at Christ's commandment; for one sin maketh not another sin to be lawful, or to be no sin; to deliver one unto Satan is to debar one from the Lord's Supper, and to repute him as a Publican, and to judge him not worthy of the communion in the holy things of God, with the Church; but this is not to repute the Church or guides or members as Publicans and Heathens, and as not worthy of Church-communion with the man who is cast out: we see the Church of Corinth rebuked, for not excommunicating the incestuous man, but not forbidden to come and eat the Lord's Supper with him, and these who came and did eat their own condemnation • 1 Cor. 11. yea they are commanded to come to the public meeting: Ergo, it is one thing not to excommunicate the scandalous, a sin, and another thing to communicate with the scandalous, which is not a sin directly, nor forbidden at all. Though Paul have an allusion to the Lord's separating of the Jews from all other people, yet it followeth not that we are to separate from the wicked men and unrenewed, professing the truth that way; first, because there was a typical separation in marriage with Canaanites; if the Jews should marry with the Canaanites, the marriage was null, and the Moabites and Ammonites ought not to enter in the Temple.

2. The Jews are to separate from the manners of Heathen, and from the persons of strange wives, yea and to put their wives of the Canaanites after they had married them, away from them, in token of their repentanee, because the marriage was not only unlawful, but null, as is clear, Ezra. 9. 1, 2, 3. N • hem. 9. 1, 2. And this was a peculiar Law binding the holy seed, but doth not infer the like separation of Christians, for 1 Cor. 7. 11, 12. it is not lawful for a Christian to put away a Pagan wife, or for the believing wife to forsake the Pagan husband, and therefore that Jewish separation cannot infer a separation from the persons and worship of unbelievers; and it is true that Paul commandeth, to cast out the incestuous person, and to separate him from the Church, but it followeth not, therefore the Church was to separate from the public worship because he was not cast out.

Answ. There is a separation from Idol-worship here, such as is proper to the people in Covenant with God, de jure, the visible Church should separate from Idols and the profane world in their Idol-worship, and sinful conversation. Ergo they should separate from the worship of God; What sewing is here? this is nothing for separation from the true Church, or true worship, for the sins of worshippers. Hear what interpreters say, as Non debet hoc simpliciter, de solo discessu, • x • migratione, quae corpore fit, accipi, quasi mox migrandum sit ex • mnibus locis, in quibus vel superstitiones exercentur, vel stagiti • s • ct inhoneste vivitur, sic ex hoc mundo migrandum esset. Calvin, de sugienda idololatria hic concionatur. Item, Nihil non sibi lice • putabant in externis, promiscue se impiis super ft itionibus pollu • bant, siquidem insidelium couvivia frequent ando, communicabant prophanos • impuros ritus cum ill is, atqui cum gravissime peccarent, sibi tamen • idebantur innoxii, ergo hic invehitur Paulus in externam idololatri •• . Bullinger, Ego quam simplicissime intelligo de contagione • orum, volupt • tum, sacrorum adeoque idolothytorum et rerum prophanarum omnium communion, putant quidam prot • nus migrandum • x quibuslibet urbibus, si non omnes, in his, per omnia deo obediant. Meyer, Objurgat ne majorem, quam dedeceret Christianos, cum Ethnicis haberent consuetudinem, vel idolothytis vescendo, vel ••• jugium contrahendo, vel ludos theatrales spectando. Marlorat, H • tur ut caveant ab omni contagione tot sordium. Ita Theophylactus, Ambrosius, et Augustinus. Paraphrastes, non in 〈◊〉 (inquit) sed in affectibus est fuga, quam suadet: so Beza, and Papists are not against this. Estius, neque Corinthii vocabantur h • bitare cum infidelibus, neque negotiari, neque cibum sumere. Chap. 8. v. 10. Signis vocat vos ad mensam &c. Vetat arctam so • i • atem, et necessitudinem ex qua oriebatur periculosa quaedam necessit • s communicandi in moribus et religione. Salmeron docet non li • ere Christianis jungi cum idelolatris, non relinquendo patriam aut lxum, sed cultum illorum; All which Divines accord in this, that separation from Idolatry and the Idol-tables of the Gentiles is here commanded, and that because the Church of God in the New Testament, is no less a people in covenant with God, to whom the promises do belong, and the presence of God working in them, then the people of the Jews were of old: But it followeth not hence that one part of the Israel of God under the New Testament should separate from the other. What weakness is this? he alludeth to Israel's separation from the Nations, which was personal; therefore we are in person to separate from the true Church for their personal sins, when the worship is right.

Answ. 1. Papists, Anabaptists, Idolaters, are disavowed by us, and from them we separate, because though they profess the true God as Edom did, yet they closely do evert the fundamentals; neither we, nor the reformed Churches, in words or by consequence do evert the fundamentals, and necessary points of salvation, and if the Church of Corinth was not to be separated from, nor Thyatira, where the resurrection was denied, and false doctrine maintained, you have no reason to parallel us with Papists, Atheists, Anabaptists.

2. No Covenant is made with the one true God, and the Edomites and Ishmaelites, but the promises are made to us, and to our children, and to as many as the Lord shall call, by the true Gospel preached, Act. 2. 39.

Answ. 1. In the Text, 2 Cor. 6. Righteousness and unrighteousness, light and darkness are as far asunder as the temple of God and Idols, and as Israel and Edom. I answer in respect of the object material of false worship, they cannot morally be united, that is true, believers at Corinth worshipping the true God in Christ, cannot be united with such, as in Idols temples are at one and the same Idol worship: and as to marry Christ and Belial, light and darkness, is a monster, so it is no less morally monstrous, that the true worshippers of God in Corinth, who give themselves out for the servants of God, should be joined in any Society with the service of dumb Idols; and thus far Israel and Edom, a servant of God and an Idolater, must separate and part companies, but in respect of the persons they may be united in one visible corporation and Church; else you may say by this argument, because faith in the eleven Apostles and unbelief in Judas, are as contrary as light and darkness, Christ and Belial, and as Israel's true worship and Edom's false worship, and because the righteousness, light and faith of the Apostolic Church. Act. 8. and the unrighteousness, darkness and unbelief of Simon Magus are contrary to others (as they are as contrary as light and darkness) that therefore the eleven Disciples and Judas made not one visible Church and the Apostolic Church, and Simon Magus and others in the gall of bitterness with him, though baptized and joined to the Church, did not make up one visible Church; now since you acknowledge no visible Church, but there be in it beside unbelievers, though not seen, there is no visible Church of your own, wherein this monstrous combination of light and darkness is not. And so all your Churches are false in their constitution, if there may not be a union of the persons of men led by God, and regenerated, and of Hypocrites led by Satan, and unregenerated; and these meeting to one and the same true worship, as Judas and the eleven did eat one and the same passover.

Answ. 1. It is true, God denounceth judgment against lewd and unknown hypocrites, as against worshippers of the God's of the Zidonians, as your places prove, Ezek. 18. Rev. 22. but your Logic is poor and blind, that you will separate from the true Church, in which there be secret hypocrites, and so from your own Churches, as you would separate from the Church of the Zidonians, who worship professedly Baa • , and deny Jehovah to be God, you make arguments without head or foot.

2. Murderers are excluded out of heaven, and haters of their brethren, who are murderers from life eternal, 1 Joh. 3. 15. as Idolaters, what then? Ergo, ye will exclude them out of the visible Church, and separate from them. It is good that you come out with Anabaptists to make these only of your visible Church, who shall reign in glory with Christ, and these only, and all without your visible Church to be firebrands of Hell, as Revel. 22. 15.

3. We are 1 Cor. 5. to avoid Fornicators, no less then Idolaters, true. Ergo, we are to separate from the Church, where there be Fornicators, seeing they make the Church to be false in its constitution, as we are to separate from a society of heathen Idolaters who worship a false God: do you love such consequences? men not forsaken of mother wit would say, I must separate from Aaron, and the whole Church of Israel, in the act of adoring the golden Calf, which is indeed a separation from the false worship of the Church, but not separate from the Church; but would you hence infer, because God punisheth fornication no less then Idolatry, that I am to separate from the Church, and all their persons and society in the very true worship of God, because some few persons there be fornicators and carnal? Surely then Paul did not his duty, who commanded communion with the Church of Corinth, 1 Cor. 5. wherein there were carnal men, and deniers of the resurrection, and such as for gain went to the Law, with their brethren, and that before Infidels; yea because all sin in the demerit thereof (except you devise venials) exclude men out of the new Jerusalem, we must separate from all Churches on earth, for there be none so clean, but there be some sin in it, which excludeth out of the new Jerusalem, as Idolatry doth, though there be degrees of sin. But some ignorant ones say the place, 1 Cor. 5. 11. is to be expounded of eating at the Communion Table, or if it be of familiar eating and drinking, of civil conversing, then much more are we not to communicate with them at the Lord's Table. But not to eat with such a one, is not to keep entire fellowship with him, as the phrase noteth, Psal. 4. 9. He that eat of my bread hath lift up his b • ele against me. Joh. 13. 18. Psal. 55 13. So doth Chrysostom, The • phylact us, Oecumenius expound this place, Bullinger, contub •• nium & interiorem convictum prohibit; So Calvin, Peter Martyr, B • za, Piscator, Pareus; So Erasmus and Aquinas, Haymo, Gagneius. Nor is all eating whatsoever with Heathen persons forbidden, Paul practiced the contrary, Act. 13. 14. 5. 6. Act. 14. 8. 9. Act. 17. 16, 17. Act. 27. 34, 35, 36. Act. 28. 11, 12. 1 Cor. 10. 27.

2. The wife is not to separate, a toro & mensa, from the excommunicated husband, nor the son from the excommunicated father, no positive Law can cancel the Law of nature, nor can hence be concluded that it is unlawful to keep any Church communion with these, or to separate from the communion, though they be at the Table. 1. Because such eat damnation to themselves, not to others. 2. Because no private person can separate, for the Churches sin, if the man be not convicted; And lastly, here is to be observed, that if the Church be not in its right constitution, that is, as Mr. Robinson teacheth us, if it be not a people in whose hearts the Lord •• th written his covenant, we are to separate from it; so as if one be found to be a non-converted, though not scandalous, he must be excommunicated for non-conversion, never breaking out in scandals, a thing contrary to the Word of God, as I have proved already.

But Robinson saith, You deny visibly God, and his Son Christ. Answ. 1. Such as are thus scandalous are to be cast out.

2. If the Church neglect to cast them out, we are not to cast out and excommunicate the Church by separating from them, no more then the godly forsook the Church of the Jews, where there were many scandalous persons.

3. There be great odds betwixt a froward generation professedly denying Christ to be come in the flesh, as the Jews, Act. 2. (and from such a Church we are to separate totally;) and betwixt a Church where there be many wicked persons, who in their life and conversation deny Christ, and yet do believe soundly or orthodoxly the fundamental points of salvation, and hold in profession the orthodox faith: for though we are to separate from the bad conversation of such a generation, yet are we not to separate from the Church-worship, and Church-society of such a generation: therefore Paul might well break off communion with the Church of the Jews, whereof he was once a member, because after Christ's death, ascension, and the Gospel was preached, it now became a fundamental point of salvation, simply necessary to be believed by all (That the Son of Mary was the Messiah) which because the Jews maliciously denied, they left off to be a Church; but a scandalous life in many of the professors, is not for that any ground to separate from the visible Church, professing such fundamental points.

But I answer, to be given to Christ and chosen out of the world is meant only of the elect and invisible Church. But Arminians, Pelagians, and old Anabaptists expound it of the visible Church, that they may make Judas, whom they allege was chosen out of the world, no less then Peter, an example of their universal election, and of the small apostasy, of the truly elected and regenerated. And you have to side with you in this the Apostate Peter Bertius, the Arminians at Hage, Arminius himself, the Socinians, as Socinus, Theoph. 〈◊〉 ; and you may see yourselves refuted by Ames refuting the Arminians in the conference at Hage: and this you expressly say with Arminians and Socinians. 1. Because, (as you say) Judas was one of them, whom the Father had given to Christ out of the world, whom alone of all them so given to him, he hath loosed; Ergo, Christ speaketh of a visible donation.

Answ. The Antecedent is false, Joh. 6. 37. All that the Father had given me, cometh unto me, and him that cometh unto me I will in no ways cast out, v. 39. And this is the Fathers will which •• th sent me, that of all which he hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. But Judas was cast out and loosed, and is not raised up at the last day, as one which cometh, that is, believeth in Christ.

2. This is the very exception of the Arminians, and Ames answereth, quae Scriptura manifesto est judicio Iudam non it a Christo datum & commendatum fuisse a Patre ut • aeteros.

Answ. 1. Invisible election and the contrary spirit that the children of God are led by, which is most unlike to the spirit that leadeth the world, is the true ground and cause why the world doth hate them; and this choosing out of the world, is seen and made visible by the fruits of the spirit to the wicked world, but the consequence is nothing, he speaketh of election that is visible or made visible, yet not as visible for often Paul t •• rmeth the visible Churches, Saints, Temples, of the holy Spirit, the sons and daughters of the living God, and when he termeth them such, he speaketh to, and of a visible Church, yet not as visible, because to be the temple of the holy Spirit, and a son and daughter of the living God, is a thing formally, and properly invisible: for faith and the spirit of adoptien are not things visible or obvious to the senses, but Separatis • s are often deceived with this, he speaketh to the visible Saints, Ergo, he speaketh to them as visible Saints, this is the vain collection of ignorant Anabaptists; Paul writeth to the visible Church, but every privilege that he doth ascribe to them doth not agree to them, as they are visible. He saith to the visible Church of Colossians, ch. 3. v. 3. your life is hid with Christ in God, an unvisible life cannot agree to the Colossians, as they are a visible Church, so separation from the world made manifest and visible is the cause why the world hateth the children of God, yet that separation is formally invisible and not seen to the eye of men, for it is an action of God to choose men out of the world, and no eye mortal can see his actions, as they be such. And therefore except Robinson prove that this choosing out of the world is common to elect and reprobate, and to be seen in Peter and Judas, he bringeth nothing against us to prove his point, but he plainly contradicteth his own tenets; for in his first reason, he will have the true Church separated from the world, as Judas the traitor was separated from the world, which we grant that is separation in show, and in profession, and so maketh his visible Church to be made up of traitors and hypocrites, who cannot be the Spouse of Christ, nor a part of Christ his mystical body, and his redeemed flock. Now he still harpeth on this, that the visible Church rightly constitute is the Spouse of Christ, the redeemed of God, the mystical body of Christ, and so he contradicteth himself, and saith with us that there be no visible separation from the world, essential to such a Church as they dream of, to wit, of called Saints, Temples of the holy Spirit, &c. and therefore never one of that side understood to this day the nature of a true visible Church, though they talk and write much of it; for the truth is, the essence and definition of a Church agreeth not equally to a true Church and a visible Church, yea a visible Church as it is visible is not formally a true Church, but the redeemed Church only is the true Church.

Answ. The choosing out of the world is not opposed to sending unto the world, for sending unto the world is an Apostolic sending common to Judas with the rest, whereby they were sent to preach the Gospel to the world, of chosen and unchosen, of elect and reprobate, but to be chosen out of the world, and given to Christ, is proper to the elect only, who are chosen out of the loosed and reprobate world.

2. It is also false that the sending of the Apostles is altogether visible, for the gifting of them with the holy Spirit is a great part of sending the Apostles, as our brethren say, a gifted man is a sent Prophet; but the Lord his gifting of the Apostle is not visible.

Answ. The Table of Idols is that Table of devils and of false worship kindly in respect of the object that we must separate from, but a scandalous person at the Lord's Supper partaketh of the Table of devils by accident, in respect the person being out of Christ eateth damnation to himself, but it is not per se and kindly, the Table of devils to others, and therefore I must not separate from it; The Supper was to Judas the devils Table, because Satan entered in him with a sup, to cause him to betray the Lord; and Christ told before, one of them twelve had a devil, and so to one of the twelve the Supper was the devils Table, yet could not the Disciples separate therefrom.

Answ. 1. Paul never insinuateth in one letter, that these wicked persons, marred the constitution and matter of the visible Church, but only that they marred the constitution of the invisible Church, that being bought with a price, they should give their bodies to harlotry, and that in denying the resurrection they denied the Scriptures, and turned Epicures, who said, Let us • a • e and drink, for tomorrow we shall die; but there is nothing to insinuate separation from the Church, as false in the constitution.

2. Paul doth not plant wicked men as imps in the Lord's Vineyard, they plant themselves in the room of true members of the Church invisible, and as the redeemed of God, when they are not so indeed, and this sort of planting is given improperly to the pastors. But if you understand by planting, the casting out of the draw-net of the word of the kingdom preached, and the inviting of as many to come in as the Pastors do find, Matth. 22. 9. 10. even good and bad; this way it is the mouth of truth, and not a profane mouth, that Pastors invite professors to come in, and be members of the visible Church, though their act of inviting have no kindly influence in the hypocrisy of their profession who are invited. To profess the truth is good and laudable, and to deny it before men, damnable, and to invite men to this profession of the truth, is good and laudable also. And wisdom sendeth out her maidens, and by them inviteth simple ones and fools to profess the truth, and to come to the visible Church, Prov. 9. 4. Prov. 1. 20, 21. but Pastors do not plant drunkards, and flagitious persons in the visible Church, but the Apostolic Church calling to her communion Simon Magus, Act. 8. but doth not plant them as hypocrites, but as external professors.

Answ. Put case Jehoshaphat be a Church visible worshipping God aright, you wrong his society, if you leave the shepherds tents, where Christ feedeth amongst the Lilies till the day break, because there be foxes in these tents and wicked persons. Is it not (saith he) sweeter to converse with the Godly, then with the ungodly? Is not the presence of faithful Christians sweeter, when one cometh to pour out his prayers, and offer his oblation, then the society of carnal men?

Answ. This will prove it is lawful to separate from Pharisees preaching the truth in Moses his chair, the contrary whereof you were, Sect. 4. Pag. 10. because it is sweeter to hear the word with the Godly, then with the ungodly.

Answer. Yea, God bestoweth the privileges of external calling unto good and bad, even to those who prefer their lusts to Christ, Matth. 22. 9. Luk. 14. 17, 18, 19.

2. The place of Ezra is corrupted, for those were the open adversaries of Judah and Benjamin, v. 1. and were not the Church at all.

3. Only Pastors are public and authoritative builders of the Church, not private Christians.

Answer. It is the cry of a stone to reason thus, this argument is as much against God's providence as against us, for God sendeth to Capernaum and Bethsaida, the privilege of Christ's presence, in preaching the Gospel, and working miracles, yet they are an unworthy people.

2. Pastors of the separation give the body of Christ to lurking Hypocrites, are they not herein presumptuous also?

Answ. Seeing affirmative precepts tie not ad semper, and Christian prudence is to direct us here; there be some in Church communion whom we cannot without palpable inconveniences rebuke: The Ministers of New-England in their answer to the n • question, say, such as are not free (servants or sons) may stay in paroch Assemblies in Old England, so as they partake of no corruptions, and live not in the want of any ordinances (they mean wanting the Lord's Supper) through their default; now to separate from the Lord's Supper, because of the wickedness of the fellow-worshippers is their default, which is against Robinson, yet we see not how masters or fathers should separate from Christ's true Church more then servants or sons.

2. Not to admonish, in some cases, is not a breach of a Commandment, nor living besides scandalous persons in a Church, or for any to abstain from the seals because such be in the Church, except we would go out of the world, for Robinson presseth always personal separation, no less then Church separation.

Answ. 1. Then may a whole Church by this reason be excommunicated, which our brethren deny.

2. There is the same proportion to be kept when one sinneth, and when a whole Church sinneth, but by observing due order; one may admonish a private brother, but not any one, or many private persons, may admonish and proceed after our Savior's order, against a whole Church in a Church way, in respect they are still inferior to a whole Church: sister Churches and Synods are to keep this order with one particular Church, that is incorrigible, for private persons have relation of brotherhood to private persons, and the relation is private, and Churches have Church relation to Churches, and the relation is public; Nor are whole Churches to be excommunicated, while God first remove the Candlestick, as we see in Rome, and the seven Churches in Asia.

2. It is considerable, 1. If the whole Church be obstinate and incorrigible, or some few, or the most part.

2. If the sins be against the worship of God, as idolatry, or sins of a wicked conversation, the worship of God remaining pure, and sound, at least in professed fundamentals.

3. If the idolatry be essential idolatry, as the adoring of the work of men's hands, or only idolatry by participation, as Popish ceremonies, the Surplice, and Cross, being as means of worship, but not adored, and so being Idols by participation; as Ames and M. Ball do well distinguish, and before them, so doth the learned Reynold, and Bilson make use of the distinction.

4. All lenity must be used against a Church, if not more lenity, then we use in proceeding against single persons.

5. Divers degrees of separation are to be considered: hence these considerations,

1. There is a separation Negative, or a non-union, and a separation Positive. Though a Church of Schismatics retaining the sound faith, yet separating from other, be deserted by any, it is a Negative separation from • true Church, and laudable: as the faithful, in Augustine's time, did well in separating from the Donatists, for with them they were never one, in that faction, though they separated not from the true faith holden by Donatists, but kept a Positive union with them; so do all the faithful well to separate from the Churches of the Separatists.

2. If the whole and most part of the Church turn idolatrous, and worship Idols, (which is essential idolatry) we are to separate from that Church: the Levites and the two Tribes did well, as Mr. Ball saith, to make a separation from Jero • oams Calves; and the godly laudably, 2 King. 16. 11. did not separate from the Israel, and Church of God, because the Altar of Damascus was set up, and because of the high places. Things dedicated unto Idols, as Lutheran Images, may be called, and are called 1 Cor. 10. 34. idolatry, yet are they idolatry by participation, and so the Cup of Devils, 1 Cor. 10. Paul doth not command separation from the Church of Corinth, and the Table of the Lord there.

3. Consideration. There is a separation from the Church in the most part, or from the Church in the least and best part. In Ahab's time Israel, and the Church thereof, for the most part, worshipped Baal; Elias, Micaja • , Obadiah, and other godly separated from the Church of Israel in the most part: Jeremiah wished to have a Cottage in the Wilderness (no doubt a godly wish) that he might separate from the Church all then for the most part corrupted, yet remained they a part of the visible Church and a part in the visible Church, and therefore did he not separate from the Church according to the least and best part thereof; The godly in England who refused the Popish ceremonies, and Antichristian Bishops, did well not to separate from the visible Church in England, and yet they separated from the mainest and worst part, which cannot be denied to be a ministerial Church.

4. Considerat. If a Church be incorrigible in a wicked conversation, and yet retain the true faith of Christ, it is presumed God hath there some to be saved, and that where Christ's ordinances be, there also where Christ's ordinances be, there also Christ's Church presence is; And therefore I doubt much if the Church should be separated from, for the case is not here as with one simple person, for it is clear, all are not involved in that incorrigible obstinacy, & that is yet a true visible communion, in which we are to remain, for there is some union with the head Christ, where the faith is kept sound, and that visibly; though a private brother remaining sound in the faith, yet being scandalous and obstinately flagitious be to be cast off, as an Heathen, yet are we not to deal so with an orthodox Church, where most part are scandalous.

5. Considerat. I see not, but we may separate from the Lord's Supper, where bread is adored, and from baptism where the sign of the Cross is added to Christ's ordinances, and yet are we not separated from the Church, for we professedly hear the word, and visibly allow truth of the doctrine maintained by that Church, which do pollute the Sacraments, and we are ready to seal it with our blood, and it is an act of visible profession of a Church, to suffer for the doctrine mentioned by that Church.

6. We may well hold that Ambrose saith well, that a Church wanting the foundation of the Apostles, is to be forsaken.

7. There is a forced separation through Tyranny from personal communion, and a voluntary separation; David was forced to leave Israel, and was cast out of the Inheritance of the Lord; the former is not our sin, and our separation from Rome hath something of the former, the latter would be wisely considered.

8. There may be causes of non-union with a Church, which are not sufficient causes of separation: Paul would not separate from the Church of the Jews, though they rejected Christ, till they openly blasphemed, Act. 13. 44, 45, 46. Act. 18. 16. And when they opposed themselves and blasphemed, Paul shook his • ayment and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads, I am clean, from henceforth I will go to the Gentiles. There is a lawful separation, and yet before the Jews came to this, there was no just cause, why any should have joined to the Church of the Jews, who denied the Messiah, and persecuted his Servants, Act. 4. Act. 5. seeing there was a cleaner Church, to which Converts might join themselves, Act. 2. 40, 41 42.

9. There is no just cause to leave a less clean Church (if it be a true Church) and to go to a purer and cleaner, though one who is a Member of no Church, have liberty of election, to join to that Church, which he conceiveth to be purest and cleanest.

10. When the greatest part of a Church maketh defection from the Truth, the lesser part remaining sound, the greatest part is the Church of Separatists, though the maniest and greatest part in the actual exercise of Discipline be the Church; yet in the case of right Discipline, the best though sewest, is the Church; for truth is like life, that retireth from the maniest members unto the heart, and there remaineth in its fountain, in case of danger.