Brief Discourse of the Troubles at Frankfort

A description off the Liturgy / or book off service that is used in England.

FIrste off all / morning prayer offereth it self. The minister having put on a white garment (which they call a surplesse) beginning withe some sentence off holy scripture / as for example▪ if we shall say that we have no sin we deceive our selves / &c. or some such of like sort. Then he takethe in hard the exhortat on / which stirreth up to a confession off sins / which the minister pronounceth with a loud voice / the people sainge after him. To this is added an absolution / and when these things are done / he rehersethe the lords prayer / and afterward lord open thow my lips / and my mouthe shall show forth thy praise. O god be ready to be my help / &c. Then / come and let us singe unto th Lord / &c. By and by also there follow 3. Psalms together at the end off everyone. Then followeth the first lesson / which conteinethe a whole chapi • er off the old Testament. After this lesson they say or singe we praise • he / lord / or Blessed be the Lord / &c. Then another lesson out off the Newe testament / unless peradventure the solemnization off some high feast have other set and appointed lessons. Now in cathedral churches they utter their lessons in plain song and thē afterwards is Benedictus added. This book warnethe that they keep this order through out the whole yere. Afterwards / the creed is pronounced by the Minister / (all the people in the mean time standing up) Afterwards fallinge down upon their knees / the Minister saithe / The Lord be with yow / The answer / And with thy spirit.

Then / Lord have mercy upon us / Christ have mercy upon us / Lord have mercy upon us / &c. our father / &c. pronounced out alowde off all with all boldness. Then the Minister / when he standeth up saithe / o lord show us thy mercy The answer / and give unto us thy saving health. O Lord save the king In the day wherein we shall call upon thee. Iudu • thy Ministers withe righteousness. And make thy chosen people joyful. O Lord save thy people. And bless thine inheritance. Geue peace in our time o Lord / &c. At length • . Collects are had • n place off a conclusion / the first / for the day / the seconde for peace / the last is for the obteininge off Grace. Now / the eueninge prayers are said 〈◊〉 manner as the other are / saving / that after the first lessen followeth my soul doth magnify the lord. After the 2. lessen Now Lord / &c. and in steed off that collect / God which art the Author off peace / is used o God from whom all holy desiers / &c. besides / there is caution added that all Ministers shall exercise them selves continually as well in morning prayers as eueninge prayers / except perhapp by study in dyuinitie or some other business / they be greatly and necessarely let or hindered· Besides / upon every Sabothe day / wensdaie and fridaie there is yet in use certain suffrages devised off Pope Gregory which beginnethe after this manner. O God the father off heaven have mercy upon us miserable sinners. O God the son redeemer off the world / &c. only leauinge out the invocation off saints / otherwise we use a certain coniuringe off God. By the mystery off his incarnation / by his holy nativity and circumcision by his haptisme / fasting and temptation / by his agony and bloody sweat / &c. yea / it comprehendethe in plain words a prayer to be delivered from sudden death / the people answeringe to the ende off every clause / either spare us good lord / or ells / Good Lord deliver us / or we beseech thee to hear us Good Lord. O Lamb off God that taketh away the sins off the world is thrice repeated. Then Lord have mercy upon us thrice / and then the Lord's prayer with this prayer also / o Lord deal not with us after our sins to the same adjoined / passinge over some things least we should seem to syfte all those drosses which remain still among us.

Now the manner off the supper is thus. The number off three at the lease is counted a fit number to communicate / and yet it is permitted (the pestilence or some other common sickness being among the people) the Minister alone may communicate withe the sick man in his house. First therefore / the Minister must be prepared after this manner / in a whit lynnin garmente (as in saying the other service he is appointed (and must stand at the Northeside off the Table. Then is had the Lord's prayer after the custom / then he reciteth the collect / and after follow in order the ten commandments (but so notwithstanding / that everyone off the people may answer lord have mercy upon us and inclyne our hearts to keep this law. After the rehearsal off the commandments / the collect off the day (as it is called) and another for the king is had. By and by the Epistle and Gospel folowethe / to wit / such as the callender apointethe for that day. And there in this place there is a note / that every holy day hath his collect Epistle and Gospel (which fill 73. great leaves off the book • when the rest fill scarce fifty. For all holy days are now in like use as were among the Papists / only very few excepted.

Then he goethe forwards to the creed and after that to the sermon (iff there be any) Afterwardes the parish priest byddeth the holy days and fasts on their eues / iff there be any that week. And here the book warnethe that none defraud the parish priest off his due or right specially on those feast days / that are dedicated to offerings. Then followeth a prayer for the state off the church militaunte / and that not without a longe heap and mixture off matters until they come (after a certain confession off sins) to lift up your hearts / the people answeringe / we give thanks to the lord. Let us give thanks to our Lord God / the answer / It is meet and right so to do. It is very meet / right and our bownden duty / &c. until they come to that clause: O Lord holy father / &c. and so the preface according to the feast is added. Afterwards he saithe: Therefore withe Angels and Archangells and so endethe with holy holy holy / lord god / till he come to hosianna in the highest. Now the priest bowethe his knee acknowledginge our unworthiness in the name off all them that shall receive • . And setting out gods mercy / he beseech the God that our bodies may be made clean by his body and that our souls may be washed through his blood. And then he again standeth up and takethe in hand a fresh another prayer appointed for this purpose / in which are contained the words off the institution / all which being donne / he first communicateth / then / by and by he saithe to another / knelinge / Take / and eat this in remembrance that Christ died for thee and feed on him in thy heart by faith with thanksgeuinge.

Now about the end the Lord's prayer it used again / the Minister saying it alowde and all the people following / to conclude / they have a giving off thanks in the end / withe Glory to god in the highest / as it was used among the Papists / if it happen that there be no sermon / only a few things are omitted / but all other things are donne in order aforesaid.

In baptism the Godfathers are demanded in the name off the child / wither they renownce the devil and all his works / the lusts off the world / &c. and they answer I renownce them. Then / wither they believe the Artikles off the faith / which being confessed / wilt thow (saith he turninge himself to both the witnesses / be baptized into this faith? and they say yea / I will. After afewe thing rehearsed / he takethe the Child and dippeth it in / but warely and discretly as it is in the book / upon whose forehead also he shall make a cross in token forsoothe that when he is old he shall not be ashamed to confess the faith off Christ Crucified. Afterward / sendinge away the Godfathers and Godmothers / be chargeth them that they bring the child to be confirmed off the Bishopp as sone as he can say the Articles off the faith / the lords prayer / and the ten Cōmaundemēts. And seeing there be many causes / as the book saithe / which should move them to the Confirmation off Children / this / forsoothe / off all others is the weightiest / that by imposition off hands they may receive strength and defense against all temptations off sin / and the assaults off the world and the devil / because that when Children come to that age / partly / by the frailty off their own flesh / partly / by the assaults off the world and the devil they beginn to be in danger: And leafte any should think any error to be in this Confirmation / therefore they take a certain pamflett off a Catechism / which consisteth off the Articles off the faith / the Lord's prayer / and ten commandments / and all this is dispatched in less then two leaves.

To these is joined their manner off Marriage off which that we may passover many petty ceremonies these follies who can suffer? The husband laithe down a ringe upon the book / which the minister taking / he geuethe it in his hand and biddethe him to put it on the fourthfinger off his wives left hand / Then he vsethe this form off words: withe this ringe (saithe he) I thee wed / withe my body I thee worship withe all my worldly goods I thee endue. In the name off the father / the son / and the holy ghost.

A little after the Minister saithe to the new married persons knelinge before the lords table: Lord have mercy upon us Christ have mercy upon us / Lord have mercy upon us. Oure father which art / &c. Lord save thy servant and thy handmaid / &c. and so a few things being rehearsed they must be brought to the Lord's supper. The visitation off the sick is after this manner. Peace be to this house. The answer / and to all that dwell in the same. Lord have mercy upon us / &c. our father / &c. Lord save thy servant. Answer / which trustethe in thee. Sende forth thy help from thy holy hill / and withe speed save him / &c. as in the other prefaces withe questions and answers. Off the Burial.

The Priest meetethe the Corse at the entrance off the churcheyarde either singing or softly pronouncinge / I am the Resurrection and the life / &c. I know that my redeemer lyuethe Job. 19. being comme to the grave it is said. Man borne off a woman Job. 9. When the earth is thrown in / we commit (saithe he) earth to earth / dust to dust / &c. The Lord hath given / the Lord hath taken / I hard a voice from heaven / saying / Blessed are the • ead which die in the Lord. Lord have mercy upon us / &c.

The purification of women in childbed / which they call giving off thanks / is not only in all things withe us almost common withe the Papists but also with the Jews / because they are commanded in stead off a lamb or dove to offer monie.

Other things / not so much shame it self / as a certain kind off pity compelleth us to keep close / in the mean season nothing diminishinge the honor due to those reverend men / who partly being hindered by those times / and by the obstinacy and also multitude off adversaries (to whom nothing was ever delightful besides their own corruptions) being as it were ouerflowen / did always in their mind continually as much as they could strive to more perfect things.

Note, that this description is very favorably put down, if ye confer it with the Book off order in all points, and the usage off the book in many churches of this realm yow can confess no less. And hereoff ye may gather what M. Calvin would have written, if they had noted all the abuses of the same.

The answer and Iudgemente off that famous and excellent learned man Master John Calvin the late Pastor off Geneva / touching the Book off England after that he had perused the same faithfully translated out off Latten by master Whittingham.

WHen this letter of Calvin's was redd to them of the congregation / it so wrought in the hearts off many / that they were not before so stowte to maintain all the partes off the boke off England as afterward they were bent against it. But now to return. Whiles these things were in doyinge / the congregation (as yow have hard afore) could not agree upon any certain order / till after longe debatinge to and fro / it was concluded / that master Knox / master Whittingham / Master Gilby / Master Fox and Master T. Cole should draw forth some order meet for their state and time: which thing was by them accomplished and offered to the congregation (being the same order off Geneva which is now in print) This order was very well liked off many / but such as were bent to the book off England could not abide it / yea / contention grew at length so hot / and the one partye which sought sincerity / so sore charged / with newfanglednes and singularity and to be the stirrers of contention and unquietness / that Master Gilby with a godly grieff (as well apeared) kneled down before them and besought them (withe tears) to reform their judgments / solemelie protestinge / that (in this matter) they sought not themselves / but only the glory off god / as he was verily persuaded / wishinge farther that that hand which he then held up were stricken of if by that a godly peace and unity might ensue and follow. In the end an otherwaie was taken by the congregation / which was / that master Knox and master whittingham / Master parry and Master leauer should devise some order if it might be / to ende all striff and contention.

Thies 4. assembled for that purpose. And first / Master Knox spake to the rest in this wise. For so much / (saithe he) as I perceive / that no ende of contention is to be hoped for / unless the one parte something relent / this will I do for my parte / that quietness may insue. I will show my judgment howe (as I think) it may be best for the edification off this poor flock / which if ye will not accept / nor follow (after that I have discharged my conscience) I will cease and commit the whole matter to be ordered by yow as yow will answer before Christ Jesus at the last day / and to this his congregation in this life / &c. Wherupon after some conference / an order was agreed vpō: some parte takē forth of the English book and other things put to / as the state of that church required.

And this order by the consent of the congregation should continue to the last of April following. if any contention should arise in the mean time / the matter then to be determined by these S. notable learned mē / to wete / Calvin / Musculus Martyr / Bullinger / and Vyret. This agremente was put in wrytinge. To that all gave their consentes. This day was joyful. Thanckes were givē to God / brotherly reconciliation followed / great familiarity used / the former grudges seemed to be forgotten. Yea the holy communion was upon this happy agremente / also ministered. And this frindshipp continued till the 13. off March following / at which time. D. Coxe and others with him came to Frankford out off England / who began to break that order which was agreed upon / first in answeringe alowde after the minister / contrary to the churches determination / and being admonished thereof / by the Seniors off the congregation / he / with the rest that came withe him made answer / that they would do as they had donne in England / and that they would have the face off an English church. And the sundaie following / one off his company without the consent and knowledge off the congregation gate up suddenly into the pulpit / redd the lettany / and D. Cox withe his company answered alowde / whereby the determination off the church was broken. The same sundaie at after noon it came to master Knox his turn to preach / who having passed so far in Gen. that he was come to Noah as he lay open in his tente / he spake these words following.

As diverse things (saithe he) ought to be kept secret / even so such things as end to the dishonor off God and disquieting of his church ought to be disclosed and openly reproved. And thereupon he shown / howe that after longe trouble and contention among them / a godly agremente was made / and howe that the same / that day was ungodly broken / which thing / became not (as he said) the prowdest off them all to have attempted / alleadginge furthermore that like as by the word off God we must / seek our warrant for the establishing off religion / and without that to thrust nothing into any Christian congregation: so for as much as in the English book were things both superstitious / impure / and imperfect (which he offered to prove before all men) he would not consent that off that church it should be received / and that in case men would go about to burden that free congregation therewith / so often as he should come in that place (the text offringe occasion) he would not fail to speak against it.

He farther affirmed that among many things which provoked godds anger against England / slackness to reform religion (when time and place was granted) was one. And therefore it became them to be circūspecte / howe they laid their foundation. And where some men ashamed not to say / that there was no let or stop in England / but that Religion might be / and was already brought to perfection / he proved the contrary / by the want off discipline. Also by the troubles which master Hooper Sustained / for the Rochet and such like / in the book commanded and allowed.

And for that one man was permitted to have 3.4. or 5. benefices to the great slander off the gospel and defraudinge off the flock off Christ off their lively food and sustenance. These were the chieff notes off his sermon / which was so stomaked off some / especially off such as had many livings in England / that he was very sharply charged / and reproved so soon as he came out off the pulpit / for the same.

The twesdaie following / was appointed to talk off thies things more at large. When all were assembled earneste request was made that D. Coxe with his company might be admitted to have voices in the congregation. Answer was made by others that the matter yet in controversy among them / ought first to be determined / Secondly / that they should subscribe to discipline as others had don before them / and farther yt was greatly suspected that they had been (some off them) at mass in England / and others had subscribed to wicked articles / as one off them shortly after even in the pulpit sorowfully confessed. For these considerations and such like / The congregation withstood the admission off D. Coxe and his company▪ Knox'at • aste / began to make intretie that they might have their • o • ces among the rest / to whose request when certain had yielded / they then became the greater parte and so were by them admitted as members off the church. They thus admitted / by the moste parte. D. Coxe forthwith forbad Knox to meddle any more in that congregation.

The next day being wensdaie / whittingham went to Master John Glauburge (who was the chieff mean in obtaininge the church) and brake the matter unto him / declaringe / howe that certain / now come out off England had forbidden their minister appointed / to preach that day / and intended to set up another / which he dowted would not be well taken. And therefore / lease any inconuen • ence should hap / he thought good to make him privy thereto. Wherupon the said Magistrate sent immediately and gave commandment that there should be no sermon that day. Afterwarde he sent for Valeran the frenche Minister / commaundinge him that 2. learned men should be appointed off either parte / and that he and they should consulte and agree upon some good order / and to make report unto him accordingly. Then were appointed D. Cox and leuer off the one side and knox and wh • ttingham on the other side To decide the matter. Valeran was appointed to put down in writing what they should agree upon. But when in this conference / they came to the order off Mattins and that D. Coxe said / Ego volo habere, there could be no agrement among them / and so brake off / whereupon the congregation drew up a supplication in latten and presented it to the said master Glauburge requestinge him to be a mean that the same might be considered off among the Senators. The English whereof was as folowethe.

The supplication to the Senate.

The 22, off Marche ma • ster Glauburge came to the English Church and shown the congregation / that it was commanded them / by the magistrate • (when by his procurement the church was granted) that they should agree withe the frenche church both in Doctrine and ceremonies / and that they understood howe the fallinge from • hat order had bred much dissention among them. Therefore / • e strait • y charged and commanded that from thenc forth they should not dissent from that order / if they did / as he had opened the church door unto them / so would he shut it again. And that such as would not obey thereunto should not tarie within that city / willing them to consulte together out off hand and to give him an answer before he departed. D. Coxe / then spake to the congregation in this wise / I have (saithe he) redd the frenche order and do think it to be both good and godly in all pointes / and therefore wished them to obaie the magistrates commandment whereupon the whole congregation gave consent / so as before the Magistrate departed the church / D. Coxe / leuer / and whittingham made report unto him accordingly. D. Coxe also at that present requested that it would please him / notwithstanding their ill behavior) to show unto them his accustomed favor and goodness / which he moste iently and louinglie promised.

At the next meetinge off the congregation that order was put in practice / to the comfort and reioycinge off the moste parte. Neuertheles / such as would so fain have had the book of England / left not the matter thus. And for that they saw Knox to be in such credit withe many off the congregation / they first off all assayed by a moste cruel barbarous and bloody practice to dispatche him out off the way / to the end they might withe more ease attain the thing which they so gredely sought / which was the placinge of their book. They had among them a book off his entitled an admonition to Christians written in the English tongue / wherein by occasion he spake off the Emperor / off Philip his son / and off Marie then Queen off England. This book cericine off them presented to the Magistrates / who (upon receipte off the same) sent for whittingham and asked him off Knox their Minister / what manner off man he was: whittingham answered that such a one their was among them and to his knowledge both a learned / wise / grave and godly man. Then one off the Magistrates said unto him / certain off your countrymen have accused him unto us Laesae Maiestatis Imperatoriae, that is off high treason against the Emperor / his son̄e / and the Queen off England / here is the book / and the places which they have noted / the true and perfect sense whereof we command yow (sub pena pacis) to bring unto us in the latten tongue at one off the clock in the after noon / which thing he did accordingly / at which time (after certain communication among themselves / they commanded that Knox should preach no more till their pleasure were farther known. The words concerning the Emperor were these / spoken in the pulpit in a Town off Buchingham sheere in the beginning off Queen Mary's reign / as by the said book apearethe where it is said O England England / if thow wilt obstinately return into Egypt / that is / if thow cōtract marriage / confederacy / or league with such princes as do maintain and advance ydolatrie / such as the Emperor (who is no less enemy to Christ then was Nero) if for the pleasure and frindship (I say) of such princes thow return to thine old abominations before used under P • pistery: then assuredly (O England) thow shalt be plagued and brought to desolation by the means off those whose favor thow sekeste / and by whom thow art procured to fall from Christ and serve antechriste. There were other 8. places / but this was most noted / in that it touched the Emperor. But it seemed the magistrates abhorred this bloudly / cruel / and outrageous attempt / for that when as certain off Knox his enemies followed hardly the Magistrates to know what should be donne with him / they did not only show most evident signs of dislikinge their unnatural suite / but also sent for master Williams and Whittingham / willing them / that master Knox should depart the City. For otherwise / (as they said) they should be forced to deliver him / if the Emperor his counsel (which then lay at Ausburge) should upon like information send for him.

The 25 off march master Knox the night before his departure made a moste comfortable sermon at his lodginge to 50. persons or there about / then present / which sermō was of the death and resurrection off Christ / and of the unspeakable joys which were prepared for God's elect / which in this life suffer trouble and persecution for the testimony off his blessed name. The next day he was brought 3. or 4. mile in his way by some off some off those unto whom the night before / he had made that exhortation / who with great heaviness off heart and plenty off tears committed him to the lord.

The very same day being the 26. off march one Adulphus Glauburge (A Doctor off law and nephew to Master John Glauburge the Senator) whom D. Cox and the rest had won unto them / sent for wittingham / and told him that there were presented to the Magistrates three Docters / 13. batchelers off deuinitie besides others / and that the magistrates at their suites had granted them the full use off the English book commanding and charginge him therefore not to medle anymore to the contrary. for (as he said) it was fully concluded that so it should be. And supposing that Whittinghā would let it what he might / the next day again he sent for him home to his house where he gave the like charge (D. Coxe and other present by whose procurement the same was donne) Whittingham answered / that if it were so concluded / he would willingly obaie / not dowtinge / but that it might be lawful for him and others to join themselves to some other church. But D. Coxe besought the lawyer that it might not so be suffered / whereto whittingham answered that it would be to great cruelty to force men contrary to their consciences to obate all their disorderly doings / offringe / that iff it would please the Magistrates to give him and others the hearing / they would dispute the matter against all the contrary parte and prove that the order which they sought to establish / ought not to take place in any reformed church. The D. off law made a plain answer that disputation there should be none / using his former words off charging and commaundinge not to deal farther in that matter.

When as the congregation hard off the cruel and more then tirannicall dealings off this Doctor / Master Gilby and others withe him / were sent to master John Glawburge (by whose commaundment as ye hard / they had received the frenche order) puttinge him in remembrance off the same and showing him that certain lately come among thē had sought (as they were crediblie informed) to overthrow their church by placing the English book among them. To this master Glauburg made answer / that he was informed howe that both partes were full agreed and contented / and that theruppon he had committed the whole matter to the lawyer his cozen. Then he asked for whittingham: it was answered that strait charge was given him that he should medle no more in that matter. The magistrate asked again off whom he had that commandment / and when it was told him that the Doctor his cozen had given him that charge / he then began / very gently to persuade with master Gilby and the rest that they should be contented / and he would se that nothing should be used but that which should be tolerable / and so master Gilby withe the rest departed.

The 28. off march D. Coxe assembled all such as had been Priests and Ministers in England to his lodging and there declared howe the Magistrates had granted them the use off the English book / and that he thought requisite that they should consulte together / whom they thought moste meet to be Bishop / Superintendent or Pastor withe the rest off the officers / as Seniors Ministers and Deacons. Wherunto master Christopher Goodmā answered that his opiniō was / that they ought first to agree upon some perfect an godly order for the church / and thereto to have the consent of the congregation whereby it might appear / that they contemned not the rest off their brethren: And farther / to proceade to the electiō which he thought also ought not to be attempted without the consent off the whole church. To this was answered that for the order / it was already determined / and other order then the book off England they should no • have / so that the persuasions off Goodman nothing at all prevailed nether in one thing or other / yea / the proceadings off sundry persons (which I could name) were such as if there had been nether orders / officers / or church there / before their coming / or any promise to be kept off their partes / after they came / as may more plainly apeere to the reader by this let following / written by master Whittingham to a frinde off his in England / which letter is (off his own hand) to be seen.

WHere as master whittingham in this his letter maketh mention off a church granted them both at Basel and Geneva / it is to be noted that he himself was the man which the oppressed congregation required to travel therein and through gods great mercy obtained it with great favor / who (in his journey) passed by Zürich to know off Master Bullinger what he thought off the book off England for that he (who had raported to master Williams / Whittingham. Gilbie and others / that Cranmer Bishop off Canterbury had drawn up a book off prayer an hundredth times more perfect then this that we now have / the same could not take place / for that he was matched withe such a wicked clergy and convocation / with other enymies) Even he / I say / yet stood in this that master Bullinger did like well off thinglishe order / and had it in his study. But when Whittingham had demanded that question / Bullinger told him / that indeed Master H and Master C. asked his judgment concerning certain pointes off that book / as Surples / private baptism. Churchinge off women / the ring in marriage / with such like / which / (as he said) he allowed not / and that he nether could if he would / nether would if he might / use the same in his church / what so ever had been reported.

Whittingham passinge from thence to Geneva / master Calvin shown him a letter sent from D. Coxe and from 14. more off Franck. in which letter / they partly excused them selves that they put order in their church without his coūsails asked / and partly reioycīge for that they had (as they said) brought the moste parte that had withstand their doings to their opinion / which not withstandinge / was far otherwise.

They wrote also / that they had elected a pastour / 2. Ministers. 4. Seniors. and 2. Deacons / &c. but howe parciallie they proceaded in their elections (those that were in office / nether discharged / nor yet their consents required) I leave to the consciences off them which saw those disorders.

To this letter off thers the contents whereof are above touched / master Calvin answerethe in this wise.

WHen the Pastor had redd this letter openly to the congregation and was desired to know when they should have an answer / he said unto them that so far as he perceived / it required none but that which might presently be made / which was / that they might depart seeing they were so minded. It was replied that for so much as it was manifest that they had been slandered not only by letters into diverse partes / but also / by some that then were present / who had affirmed their departure to be a schism / and farther / that they could find no indifferency at their hands: it was thought necessary to commit the hearing off that controversy to learned and indifferent judges / by both partes to be chosen whereby the fault might appear where it was in deed / and so they either excused or found guilty.

D. Cox / at length / told them that their letter should be considered off / and an answer should be given them the fridaie after. On fridaie the 30, off Auguste both partes met: The Pastor (accompanied with the Ministers and elders) spake this unto them. It seemeth very fond that arbytrers should be appointed to take up strife that may come hereafter / as your letter signifieth. And furthermore / ye write / if any offense be taken or given / which semethe as strange / for this word (if) importethe a dowte / so that if ye dowte it is but folly to apointe arbitres. finally / to excuse your departure / yow call them unlearned which judge it a schism but (saithe) he) term it as yow lift yet can yow not let men to think. And if arbitres should pronounce it to be none / yet men's opinions will be di ••• s.

Now • he • fore / your answer shall be / that iff any man be offended either with any private mā / or publicly / let him or them complain to us / or if they refuse us / to the Magistrate.

As for Arbitres / we will appoint none. Then spake whittingham and said that it was to him no small wonder that men of such lerninge and wisdom should so shrink in a moste equal request / and so / without all reason to cavil where no matter was offered. For / as concerning (saithe he) the first pointe / it was not unknown to them that at that time / thorough their occasion / their was no small contention / and that seeing they had given such offense it could not be but that men's minds were moved.

And therefore / to the end that contention should grow no farther / Arbytres were very necessary / who needed not to deliberate (as he said) off things to come which were uncertain▪ but as the letter truly purporteth / off injuries longe agoo begun / yet continued / and here after not like to be ended except some good mean were used to stay their slanderous letters and false reports / to the utter perishinge and lose off men's Good names. And where ye seem to be ofended that the letter should call them unlearned / which term our departure a schism (yow omit said D. Coxe the 2. pointe / which is off no small importance) to whom he answered that he thought he did them a pleasure in omittinge things of so small value / notwithstanding / he would obaie his will but (saithe he) as touching this word vnlernedly / it was not unadvisedly placed. For either they be without lerninge / and therefore may be so called in deed / or if they bear the name off lerninge / yet in this they shown their unskillfulness for as much as every departure from a congregation was not a schism / nether were any that departed for just causes schismatics as we (saith he) will prove unto yow / if yow will take our reasonable and moste equal offer. Naie / saithe the pastor / Arbitres in this point can little avail for be it they judged it none / yet men's thoughts are free / and we know that all men be not off one mind in sacraments and predestination / should men therefore take arbitres? Also saith he master Calvin and Bullinger / are against yow. To this was answered / that thoughts / if they were not grounded upon God's word / were evil / neither was this controversy off like force withe the matter off the Sacraments and predestination / notwithstanding / would to God that not only the difference in those articles but also in all other which be off weight and importance might be decided by the authority off God's word and arbytrement off godly learned men. But men may justly suspecte your cause to be naught which refuse the judgments off the wise and godly.

And where yow say that Calvin and Bullinger are against us / yow abuse yourself and there names / for we know both what they and other write as touching this matter.

Then the Pastor asked what schisma was but a cuttinge off from the body / and that it was Calvin's definition. To this Whittingham answered that he would undertake first / to prove that definition to be false / and secondly to be nonone off Calvin's definition for if every cuttinge off from the body should be a schism / then yow and all other which once had sworn to the pope and now have refused him are schismatiques. Then the pastor added / from a church well reformed. Answer was made that a church well reformed must be built upon the doctrine off the Prophets and Apostles / the unity whereof S. Paul comprehendeth in these words: one god / one faith / one baptism / not beggarly ceremomies and obscurations / although that sundry causes besides moved them to depart. Then Master Treherren / asked whither the donatists were not schismatiques.

Yes / saith Whittingham and also heretics / but yow are deceived if yow think that they separated them selves for ceremonies. It is manifest said Treherren / that the churches off Asia were excommunicate as schismatiques for that they kept not Easter at the same time that the Romaine church did. And it is no less evident said Whitthingham that Irenaeus and other godly men as well off that time / as sithens have sharply reproved and condemned Pope Victor for the same.

Here D. Coxe put Whittingham in remembrance that he had not answered to the faults off the letter. Whittingham told him / that as touching that poor word (if) he marueled howe it could Minister any cavillation / seeing / the text ioininge thereto was so plain / which declarethe both the offenses by yow given and by us taken. And also your consciences bear yow witness / the thing to be moste true except a man will be willfully blind / and find a knot in a rushe / so that that word (if) mente not that we do / dowte who were oppressed with infinite wrongs / but iff they would dissemble so far that they m • ght seem to dowte thereof / yet / at the lease / they would abide the trial thereof before these Arbitres. But here the disputation brake up with this plain and final answer that arbitres they should have none / and that if they found themselves grieved / they should seek remedy where they thought Good and he the Pastor withe the rest off the congregation would answer them.

The next day the Pastor / D. Coxe / master parry and master Asheley sent for Whittingham / Thomas Cole John Fox / William Kethe / Roger heart / John Hilton with certain other / demandinge off them what should be the cause off their departure. Whittingham made answer that the day before they had declared sufficiently / and yet would farther show reasons / if they would permit the controversy to Arbytrement. And to the intent they should not counterfeit ignorance (among other) these were some causes first / their breach off promise / established with invocation off gods name: 2. Their ordreles thrustinge themselves in to the church. 3. Takinge away the order off discipline established before their coming and placinge no other. 4. The accusasion off master Knox their godly Minister off Treason and seekinge his blood 5. Their ouerthrowinge off the common order / taken and commanded by the Magistrate 6. The displacinge off officers without any cause alleged. 7. The bringing in off Papistical superstitions and unprofitable Ceremonies which were burdens yokes and clogges / besides other things / which / if they would abide the trial they should hear at large. When he and some off the rest had rendered their reasons for their departure to this effect / certain warm words passed to and fro from the one to the other / and so in some heat departed.

Not many days after the oppressed church departed from Franck. to Basel and Geneva / some stayinge at Basel as master Fox with other. The rest came to Geneva where they were received withe great favor and mutche courtesy / both off the magistrates Ministers and people. So soon as they entered their church / they chose Knox and Goodman for their Pastor / and Gilby requested to suplie the rome till Knox returned out off france.

The learned men which came from all places to Frank. about this matter (when they had donne that which they came for / they returned again from whens they came / and some to other places / where they might save charges / and not to be either burdened or bownde to the excercises of the congregation / so that / the exile which was to many a poor man full bitter / grievous and painful / was (to some off the greatest persecutors off their poor brethetn (as it were / a pleasant progress or recreation.

But now it shall be necessary to declare what order was taken in this new erected congregation for the prosperous continuance off the same / which thing to do / I cannot by a better mean then placinge here this letter following which master cole (late dean off Sarum) wrote to a frinde off his / whiles yet he stayed (behind his company) in Franck. among them, his letter is yet to be seen.

SHortly after thies things to wete / the 6. off Ian. When as master Whithead gave up off his own good will / as he said / the pastoral office / Master horn was in the election to succeed him / who protested that he would not medle therewith / till he were cleared off certain suspicions which some had bruted to the discredit off his ministry / and obtaininge his request / he withe the Seniors entered the church the first off march Anno Domini 1556. were they received all such persons (as members off that church) which were contented to subscribe and submit themselves to the orders off the same. From which time forward the troubles and contious were so sore among them / that who so shall well way it with due consideration / I ween / he shall think it to be the just judgment off our righteous God that fell upon them / for supplantinge a church there before them in great quietness and off much sincerity.

Now / folowith the discipline both the old / and that which was by the Magistrates appointment / corrected.

To the 7. Article off the new. Discipline.

To the Article off 2. Min • sters off like charge and authority we think we have good • easons to require that there be no moo in the special burden and charge pastoral then one / to whom the others joined with him for preaching off the word and ministringe the Sacraments shall not in cure and charge / government and preeminence / be in all respects coequal.

The answer off the church / touching this 7. Article. to the reasons off the dissenting brethren.

We se not by the scriptures / that any authority is given to any one above others / but rather to the contrary.

As concerning old writers / we know that Jerome expressly declarethe that in the beginning the church was ruled equally by many. But after when schisms began to springe the chief authority was given to one for authorities sake / and by man's ordinance rather then by divine authority / wherefor we conclude that as for schisms the first order of many was left and one chief appointed: So now for the auoidinge of tyranny a worse evil in the church then schisms / which / as apearethe by the Bishop of Rome is grounded upon one / we think it good to return to the first order off two or moo equal ministers according to the institution off the Apostells as Saint Jerome teacheth. And that those learned men who do moste earnestly maintain the government off one / confess that until the time off Dionysius / who was after Christ 300. years and more / the Regimente was equally committed to many. And as for the new / there be examples off the best church to the contrary. And Master Calvin in the 8. Chap. off his Institutions the 42. and 52. dyuisions Declarethe expressly that there were From the beginning more Ministers off the word and that it is but off man's ordinance that one was afterward made chieff.

That is alleged off the reformed churches in Germany the multitude ought to serve no more for one / then the best reformed churches / for two ministers off the word.

As concerning Nicene council it is before answered / and in that they decreed there should be but one / it consequenquently folowithe that before the said decree there were many.

And iff those godly fathers were now living and did se how Antechriste is established upon one / they would more gladly return to the first order off many equal for the auoidinge off that moste horrible mischieff. As they then did for the auoidinge off Schisms appointe every city one.

Negligence is no more in two then one. ability off welldoinge things is more in two then in one. And siknesse being so riffe in this city / it is as much as 2. can well do / and one may be sick. And one may will fully and suddenly leave his flock

Wherefore / two be necessary / ells / in the sudden sickness off one only Minister / when many other be sike also / dew visitation off the sike is not well seen to and preaching omitted / as it hath chanced in our church / yea / and although we have many. And therefore reason tellethe us that it is expedient to have two rather then one.

Horne / &c. Upon the 8. Artic.

Item / where it is provided that the Ministers shall by themselves or their deputies disharge the sermons and other their duties when necessary case shall so require: we say it is superfluous. for a necessary cause nedethe not to be provided for by law: besides that the alowinge off deputies by law made for that purpose openethe a window off negligence to the ministers in the executinge off their office.

Whitthead / &c.

A law doth well provide that such may be in a redynes which shall serve in necessity / It is provided in many cities / by a law that in dread off fire every man have a bucket off water at his door / which is a thing necessary. And universally the multitude off good laws be grounded upon causes necessary. Wherefore / we think that position / that necessary causes need not to be provided for by a law / ought to be taken for no law: and where it is alleged that it openethe a window off negligence to the Ministers / it is not so / for the appointemente off those deputies apperteinethe more to the Seniors them to the Ministers by our discipline.

Horne &c. Artic. 10.

Item / in the Article of Catechism / we think it is superfluous and tedious to have 2. Catechisms in one after noon And also think that Master Calvin's Catechism ought to be used no otherwise with us then it is in Calvin's church that alloweth and useth the same.

Whithead &c.

The first Catechism is only ordered for the children and is but an examination and apposinge off them. The other is not only for children but for all the congregation / &c.

Now / for so much as the reasons and answers are very long and yet some off them repeated / in Master Horns objections to the discipline which he offered up to the Magistrate / I will here pass them over and come to the said objections / and the answers off the church to the same.

Horne and the rest off his side to the Magistrate.

WE come to that now (right honorable S.) which we were charged to do by your commaundment and appointment: that for as much as for the apeasinge and final puttinge away off the contention between us and our brethren / we should show why we dissente from them / and cannot proceade in the same passage and way that they do: We shall so open unto yow our defense and cause even as we desier to be justified both in our consciences and before god. Howbeit / we are very sory that your H. Hathe lym • ted us so short time / so as in a cause which (for the weightiness and difficulty off it) ought to be debated upon with more leisure / and very many things to be weighed to and fro / we must off force in a manner hold our peace and say nothing.

But our trust is that your. H. will hereafter / remedy this displeasure / in grauntinge us longer time that we may more amplie hereafter confirm our cause / which we are forced to set forth naked and without any defense at all which we will moste gladly do and desier that we may freely be permitted to do. This is the thing that we often sought for when we consulted among our brethren for the correctinge and amendinge off our discipline / that / as longe as the matter and cause was in consultation / we might so longe polishe and finish more at large that was alleged / to add unto all our sentences / before the sentences brought in / and to strike out and take away from them if ought seemed worthy to be taken away / albeit any thing were put in / as firm and established by our subscription: Which thing we now eftsonnes desier moste earnestly at your H. Handes. that for as much as nothing is yet concluded and determined by your H. there be no such prejudice objected unto our cause / but that we may confirm all our allegations with firm and available arguments.

And in deed / seeing we must now entreat in order off those things which we reprehende and condemn in our bretherns made Discipline: This we first reprehend universally / that any other alteration or innovation off things should be in our affaiers then such as serve only to the correctinge and amendinge off that Discipline which hath been heretofore received and used in our church. Wherein / we will seem also somewhat to satisfy our bretherns curious minds. This we say / because there is almost nothing that we think is to be innouated with such post haste and in deed / there are many and weighty causes which do altogether pull us back from these innovations / and bid us stick still to our old discipline / and not for the pleasure off some men / and contrary also to your commandment (given for the amendinge and not for the making off any new Discipline) to contemn and caste away that which so many have allowed.

Whithead and the rest off that side anwere in this wise.

We had purposed (right honorable ad righteous Magistrates) as we also signified unto your honors) to have made no answer at all unto these unbrotherly reproaches off Master Horne and Master Chambers (for they are the only Authors thereof) in as much as they be unworthy to be answered unto / seeing they have no sure grownds / but ba • e assertions only / which are as easily denied as affirmed. And besides that Master Horne said openly in the hearing off all his complyces / before Master Bartue D. Cox and D. Sandes / arbytres appointed by your authority / that he was not desirous that we should answer / wherein indeed / he was not altogether a fool. For he knew well enough howe fond gear he had written / and would bear away this brag the while / not as though we would not / but could not answer so light accusations. Which petit brag (Wherein he so much delighteth) we would have been content to have spared him / had not your authority (who thought it meet for us in any wise to make answer) come between: And in case Master Horne and Master Chambers shall read some things here in our answer that they would not / let them remember that they have driven us to it / in that they have blustred out in wrytinge so unworthy matters (and that so falsely) off such a multitude off their banished countrymen. for they (Forgettinge all humanity and Good manner) / object before the Magistrate (and that often) prouertie to a great many off ours now in exile as a most high reproach. What then? Are they banished and poor willingly or parforce? Were they not and might they not (if they set more by goods then godliness / be richer? And whens have they this poverty which ye Master Horne and master Chābers caste so tauntingly in their teeth? And whence have ye this plenty whereby ye look so high against your brethren? Surely yow ought to have advised yourself / seeing ye carry the common purse / before ye had so rashly and so undiscreetly published these words unto the right honorable Magistrate / with the reproach off yourself and off your country men. In deed we would have suffered these (as common reproaches) to be buried in perpetual silence iff it seemed not otherwise meet to the right honorable magistrate / (whose authority we obeyinge as if becomethe us) shall answer particularly unto all the particular chapters off your assertions.

Objection to the title off the Discipline.

IN the title and entrance unto their Discipline we reprove this as plain false in tha • they say the book off their discipline was collected by 15. men appointed do do the same by the congregation and the authority off the Magistrate / and so exhibited afterward unto our congregation by the same • 5. men. For it was both collected before the matter was committed unto them and confirmed before hand by many men's hands subscribed.

Touchinge the 42. Which approved this discipline and confirmed it by subscribinge / this we may allege there are 24. off thē which live off other men's liberality and alms / so as they may seem rather to follow other men's wills / and to be inclined to their pleasures: specially / seeing so large and ample promises as well to live at liberty as to have their slender living releued / have been made to this intent.

Master Horne and Master Chambers deny the book off discipline to be collected by the 15 men / because they being appointed off the 15. have labored by all means that nothing should be donne for the setting off the congregation at a quiet stay. And when they perceived that they could not hinder it / they came not with the rest / the 2. last days according to appointment so as by that means / some of the just noneber off 15. men should be wantinge. was not the book therefore both Lawfully collected and lawfully exhibited to the congregation because 2. or 3. off the appointed men withdrew themselves against right and equity? What should be determined in any affairs / if the matter should tarie / till altogether (not one except) should agree thoroughly in all pointes? Where they say the book was collected before this matter was committed to the 15. men is it a plain slander. Master Horne and Master Chambers might be justly ashamed to cast poverty in our bretherns teeth now in exile (and that before the Magistrate) and to lie so openly / that 24. off our company that subscribed live off other men's alms. And if so many poor men have forsaken Master purse bearer Chambers is it not a plain matter that they have been evil entreated at Chambers hand before time? But where they gather that the poor men seem to have followed other men's minds in subscribinge to the Discipline / rather then their own: it is fondly gathered: in as much as on the contrary parte it is moste true that they which (were they poor men) folowid not Chambers when he ran a Waye with the bag / regarded their conscience more then the living forsomuch as both they and all other might be certainly assured that they should moste grievously offend not only the purse bearer Chambers but also two or there other off the richer sort off our congregation. But howe much more justly might we return this accusatiō (which they falsely bend against ours) upon M. Horne and M. Chamb. and many other off their number which have followed Chamb. in runninge away from the congregation / because he carried and shown them a well stuffed powche / as it were a standard to follow▪ for neither Master Chambers nor Master Horne durst ever have departed from the congregation as they have done but upon trust off the powche / which the one hath always borne / and the other hath been ever an inseperable waiter upon / where so ever it were carried: and and yet in the mean while / this gaye fellow Horne / from alofte contemneth so great a company off his countrymen / as beggars and caitiues in comparison off himself.

But in case there be so many among us that live off other men's alms / as Master Horne and Master Chambers do reason. And seeing Master Chambers took upon him especially at the entreaty off Master Horne / the charge off gathering godly men's alms publicly in the name of the church / for the relieff the off poor off our congregation as it is already known unto many and shall hereafter by the whole matter severally setforth / be moste evidently known to moo: what mercy and pitye is this off thers towards their brethren to leave so many miserable people behind them / contrary to their promise made to the congregation / and to run away not only from the congregation / but also out off the cytye snappinge away the bag with them (which conteinethe many men's alms gathered for the poor in the name off the congregation / and to leave them all destitute / and also to leave certain preachers appointed by them (which have served the church a yere and moore / and to whom they promised that they should lack nothing) in a great deal off de • t to other men for their necessary bourde▪

And where they play such pranks / they caste o ••• brethren in the teeth still with poverty / by the way off reproach / before the Magistrate. Let them go too therefore / seeing their pleasure is such and number their own cōpanye and leave out their servants / their boys / and such as depend upon Chambers purse (for he hath made it his own / and dedicated it to his own property) and let them tell us then / howe many there be left on their parte / if they be not ashamed to tell howe many they be: Where we did comfort our poor brethren to our power whom Chambers running away with the bag Had made astonished / and would have had them utterly discouraged / they lay it to our charge as evil done: what is there manifest declaration else but that the poor of our congregation should be utterly destitute not only of relieff but also off all hope of relief which hath ever been the uttermost comfort off such as be in myserie.

In the Discipline it self an objection.

The next thing now where in we agree not / is / that which is spoken off the 2. new Ministers. This they treat upon in the 7. Article. Th • s we defend / that the scripture doth lean and inclyne rather unto one / than unto 2. which one / as he must not be above the rest by lordeshipp / so yet ought he to be above other in charge and in burthē / in as much as he must needs give a greater accoumpte / then the rest for the flock committed unto him and to his charge. Theis we are able to prove. Firste / by the circumstances off the places off scriptures considered / secondly / by the interpretacions off ancient fathers / and the best learned men off our time or latter days. Thirdly / in the examples of the churches instituted by the Apostells / and most holy men after their time / foorthly / this new order off 2. Ministers or moo / hath been (as all the wyseste men have always reasoned) the seeds and fountains of all dissensions and cōtentions. And like as for order sake and for conservation off the churches in peace / our elders thought / that one should necessarely be above the rest: so also in this our remembrance / the greatest learned men as Calvin / Brenz / and many other do think. Off these matters the best instituted and reformed churches in Germany can also be the best witnesses. Theis / we profess that we both can and will more largely show as farther occasion shall hereafter serve / which we cannot do now for that we be limited to so short a time.

The answer.

As concerning the two Ministers off the word. We affirm that it is lawful by the word off God to have either 2. or moo.

Where these men say the scriptures do lean rather to one that is to affirm only / and to prove nothing / where as Paul almost in all his Epistles writeth always as unto moo off equal authority in every church and not as unto one principal. Where they allege the ancient Doctors / Jerome which is the moste diligent in H • story matters / reporteth moste plainly that in the beginning there were many / and afterward for the auoidinge of dissensions / the chieff authority was committed unto one as the chieff. But yet saithe he / that was donne rather by the statute off men then by the authority off God. Where they speak so much off the misch • ffe off contention in the church / we confess it is a great evil / But that tyranny • s a more pestiferous destruction to the church / and that tyranny crept into the church by one / the Bishopp off Rome / may teache us at large. Therefore / for as much as both ways / either by one or by moo / euells may happen / we thought good to beware more diligently of the greater evil. Where they bring in Calvin for one / we marvel with what face they can do that seeing it is out off all dowte / that he upon one day and in one hour instituted two Ministers off equal authority in all things in the English congregation which is at Geneva. And also seeing that in the 8. chapter and 42. and 52. divisions off his Christian Institution / he declareth openly that there were from the beginning moo ministers off the word off equal authority in the church off Christ. Where they allege the examples off the churches off Germany we also want not examples off the dutche church at Emden wherein their be 3. Ministers off the word off equal authority. And off the frenche church off this City / and off the English church off Geneva / yea and Calvin himself is counted superior to his fellows not by authority off office / but in respect off his lerninge and me rites. Therefore in as much as it is also permitted unto us by the magistrates app • intement / to choose one or moo: let them leave their wranglinge for a thing indifferent / as though i • it were for lyffe and lande. Where they profess that they will make large proffe off this matter at leisure / let them profess these gaye glorious promises so longe as they will / so they know the longer they labor in this matter / so much less shall they both show and bring to pass

The objection to the 8. Article.

In the 8. Article Ministers commit and assign the burden and cure (wherewith they are charged) unto others with over much facility: We demand also this / which appeareth not plainly enough in their Discipline / to whom pertaineth it to allow their allegations and excuses / when they will leave their charges unto others.

The answer.

What inhumanity is it / not to be content / that the ministers off the word (upon weighty causes / as sickness or urgent business off importance) should be eased off their burdens? as though they that find fault at this now / permitted not the same to themselves before / rough against other / and over favorable to themselves.

And where they demand unto whom it perteinethe to allow their lawful causes / we wonder / that they / nother red jointly in the same place the name off Seniors / to whom the matter is committed / nor remember that general pointe in the 36. article / that the government off the whole church is committed to the ministers and Seniors.

The objection to the 13. Article.

We allow the translatinge off books. But that so open a law should be made for that matter / that is the thing we find fault withe. For it both containeth that which is a pestilent matter to our congregation / by means off danger off such as are wont to traueile as strangers up hither unto us owt of England / as also it may be reprehended in that it seemeth to smell and tend openly to the private commodity off some men.

The answer.

Where it is signified that certain books godly and fit either to instruct / or comfort our countrymen in this calamity off ours and off our countre / should be translated in to our tongue then the which there can be nothing more profitable or necessary / they say it is a pestilente matter forsoothe / because it is so openly mentioned: as though by speaking nothing / it might be persuaded that we do nothing here but sleep for where they add touching the private commodity off some in so common a profit / we cannot guess what that meanethe in as much as all men that have in these miserable days / yet hitherto caused books to be set forth in our tongue have rather lost then won by them.

The objection to the 16. Article.

In the 16. Article the custody off the treasure off the church pertaineth not necessarily to the Deacons by the word off God. And at this day many reformed churches do not observe it and moreover it semethe more profitable unto our congregation to have it otherwise. Fowrthly the moste parte off the auntientest churches keep a plain other custom.

The answer.

Iff they be able to show so plain a place in all the whole Scripture for any other that ought to have the custody off the treasure off the church as is in the 6. off the Acts off the Apostells / for the Deacones / we yield unto them. Yea / and Calvin shall yield also (whose name they oftentimes wondrous confidently and falsely allege) who / in the • . Chapter off the Institution off a Christian man in the 55. division / thinketh plainly as we do / as well concerning the custody / as the distribution off all church money and vtterethe the same in plain words. In the primative church / saith he / the Deacons received (even as it was under the apostells) faithful people's daily oblations and the yearly revenues off the church / to thentent they should bestow them upon true uses. We desier them now to show us more plainly / unto what other men that charge doth rather belong then to the deacons / &c. But they say many reformed churches observe not this / and that it will be more profitable for our congregatiō to have it otherwise And that the moste parte of the aunciētest churches keep still another custom This (as we said before) is only to affirm / and prove nothing. But thus they do a • moste always. But where they speak off the auntientest churches / we believe / they mean the popish churches / but would not for shame utter it: or ells let them show us what ancient churches those be / yet this we may not overpass how that they affirm that it will be profitable for our church to have it otherwise: that is / that one / as it is now / have the custody alone / know alone / and distribute the church money alone and make account alone / and to himself alone. But we are ready to prove either to the magistrate / or to the world (in case the Magistrate so permit it) both by testimonies / reasons / and matters in deed / that this is not only not profitable / but also it hath and is utterly pernicious / and to the plain vndooinge off our church.

The objection to the 17. Article.

We find fault / that the election off the Deacons is not free enough. For the riche men must be always taken. Also in that they ought to depend upon the will and council off the elders / where now agreat parte off the elders both live and depend upon the Deacons purce. There mouth therefore semethe to be stopped / so as they dare never reprove and ouersore correct the Deacons when they offend.

The answer.

There was never man that was in his right wit which denied i • to be moste profitable for the church / to have such men chosen to be Deacons / as the least suspicion can be had in. Where Horne and Chambers affirm that a great parte off the Elders live and depend upon the Deacons purce / it is a plain slanderous report.

But admit there be one or two among them off the poorer sort that shall perhapps have need now and then off some relieff off the church monie. Do not yow (Horne and Chambers) know that they have been richer in times paste / and except they preferred Religion to riches) may be richer when they will? And now as they are become willingly banished men / so are they willingly poor men for the same Religions sake that ye will seem to profess? Wherefore then had ye rather enuiously to reprehend poverty in such a one then gently to commend so great a virtue / but that ye are driven hereto by grief of your stomachs through malice. What? Dothe Paul require wealth in Elders (as ye do) or virtue? Go too / and show us out off Paul that this your purce wealth / is so necessary in an elder: We dare affirm that such a one should have been off more authority with Paul as also with all men that be godly / and more worthy to be an elder by reason off his poverty / for the which he is so contemned at your hand. But poor elders dare not (ye must understand) reprove offendinge Deacons: Do not yow Horne and Chambers know that in the primative church / Bishopps them selves / had their appointed living out off the treasure off the church / which was in the Deacons hands: and yet the Deacons (in case they did amiss) were never the less sharply corrected off them? And yet these men that require such ruffling riche elders / would have Deacons off the poorer sort. But by what example / and by what reason? why cannot ye being Christians be content in exile as well with poor Elders as with poor Deacons? we remember that one off yow said openly in our hearing / and in the hearing of many other that yow could not with your conscience be under such ministers and such Seniors as our church hath now chosen. If ye can find no other fault in them then willful poverty / the congregation also cannot repent them yet off the ministers and Seniors whom they have chosen: and as for this pure conscience off yours we pass not for it. But we think / if wealth be to respected in any that is in Ecclesiastical Ministry it is to be be respected chieffly in Deacons / that they medle with the church monie without sinistre suspicion. In deed about 4. months paste / ye had Deacons / surely honest men we say not nay / but yet such as for their slender ability ye made such vnderlinges / that ye brought not only the honest Good men but also the ministry off Deacons (to the great injury off the apostells ordinance) into very much contempt. And in case we have thought Good to be ware (by all means) off that evil / ye ought not to have been grieved at it / but rather to have reioised in the churches behalff. But herein there is one great sin / that this is not done by yow / but rather against your minds seeing ye think nothing to be right / nor any thing to stand in force unless it proceed off yow.

The Objection against the 18. Article.

The ministers shall be privy howe much monie there is / but not howe it is bestowed. This is agaīste the custom of the auncientest and best instituted churches / and contrary to the Iudgemente and mind off the greatest learned men that be in these days as Calvin and others / which as they permit the distribution unto the Deacons / even so / will they have it donne at the arbitrement and apoointment off the Elders.

The answer.

The Ministers (say they) shall be privy howe much monie there is / but not how it is bestowed. Where find yow in our book these words: (but not how it is bestowed?) And yet when he hath added it / off his own / lord / howe he triumpheth here off the custom off the moste auncientest churches / off the minds off the greatest learned men / namely Master Calvin / &c. In this matter the man truly semethe not to have wanted space and time whereof he had to much to write so fond vanities / but that he lacked his eye sight and some what ells besides.

The objection against the 19. Article.

Albeit they would cover the matter / yet by making off laws / they make all openly known: For they disclose thus much / that we send out our gatherers to bring other men's liberality unto us: which thing shall bring great danger to many in as much as the enemies off our religion will easily conjecture from whom this so great libiralitie cometh.

The answer.

There is a great fore sight in these men that they can reprehende that thing in us which they themselves have done now already these 3. years but it is well know̄ that they send out their gatherers / no more then it is / that we be at Franckford. And then be addeth that the enemies may easily conjecture from whom this so great liberality commethe. We wonder what he meaneth or howe much it is that he calleth so great. Dothe Chambers at vnwarres mean the greatness off his purce? for as for us we have yet hitherto sent out nobody to gather / much less have we received any thing by any gatherer.

The objection against the 21. Article.

We w •• e not what they mean by the scoole. but howe so ever the matter is / it shall annoye us very much / if they build up so many things with so solemn a profession / and shall bring our adversaries into such a suspicion / that we receive much more off other men then cometh to our hands in deed. And this shall comme off it that very many shall for our sakes be moste straitly handled and examined.

The answer.

What if 2 or 3 Papists list to lie / that we receive many thousands / shall this breed great danger to us and others / and shall many be moste straitly handled and examined therefore? They may fain dangers out off every thing iff they will. But he thinketh it would not be known that here are students / lectures / and Disputations / if we had spoken nothing off the scoole in our discipline. For it was not known that there was a college off students at Zurich before. It is a world to se howe circumspecte these men be in words / when they are minded to speak any thing against this our foolish symplicitie. For what madness is it / to think that those things which be every day open before men's eyes are the more known / by one sentence written in a book which very few shall look in.

The objection to the 22.23. and 24. Article.

The shamefastness off many / is vnshamefaste enough / and to be often diligently examined. And we think it necessary that nothing be donne in this behalff without consent off the elders / who as they best know the state off every man so they can and ought to make an exhortation at the distributing apt and fit for every man's disposition.

The answer.

The shamefastness off some is almost so far attempted off some shameless men that their heart is clean caste down. For these discreet disposers off other men's alms / have by passing to much on money utterly caste away men / yea / both together the monie and men. And yet in the mean while / these that without all shame / reason of shamfastnes forsooth / whom rather then those that have any spark off honest shamefastness left / would go unto / they had rather almost die / yea / these ge •• le and shamfaste disposers have with their odious behaui ••• d ••• en many men off notable good wits and towardness / some to the printinge house / some to be seruinge men / and to run into England again / with the peril both off body and soul. But off this case off evil handlinge / we shall commence matter against thies men (if god will) and the magistrate give us leave / to thentent that good men may be the more ware hensfoorthe that they commit not their liberal alms so easily to any one man's fidelity hereafter.

The objection against the 26. Article.

The law ordained for those that travel by the way shall call unto us all such as be the moste idle persons and the veriest vnthriftes / and also Papists which will fame themselves to be Religious that they may be holpen as we have learned by experience.

The answer.

The trauelour off our nation having need by the way to be holpen on his journey (if the treasure off the church will bear it) please not these men. They say / they have learned by experience that idle persons and vnthriftes and also papists are called hither by this means. By what experience / we beseech yow? before this law was made or sithens? if they were called hither before this law was made / they were no • called by occasion off this law. Let them cease therefore to impute unto a law / that provideth only for those that be godly and needy / those things that naugtie packes have ever hitherto donne and will do still hereafter.

The objection to the 27. Article.

It is not an alms / but a compulsion. Besides this / off these that are found to be the setters forth off these laws their are not paste 17. or 18. Which have competent enough to live upon and to sustain themselves. And off them there would not only five give heretofore / when collections were made / and the sum off all their distributions came never to 1 • . Dallers / they gave so sparingly and so slenderly. And parhappes their is some what herein to keep back and and fray away all such as be off the richer sort from us that they came not hither / when they shall se so few riche dwell among so many poor / which nevertheless shall be compelled to sustain and bear very great charges at sundry contributions.

The answer.

It is not a compulsion / but an alms. For no man is constrained otherwise then his own good will and ability is / and that that is off good will / is no compulsion. And there shall no man off the richer sort (that is godly) be fraide away from us by this mean / in as much as such as be godly seek off there own accord / whom they may do good unto. And where they object unto us again the small number off ours / which have competent enough to live upon themselves / these should be some men off mighty ability that would have the magistrate persuaded / that other are but beggars in comparison off them. peradventure Horne / which is the deviser here off / is admitted under hand into the felowshipp off the purce with Chambers and thereof it commethe his so great swellinge / such loftynesse and contempt off others: And where he addethe that there were but fine that gave at the collections before time / and the sum off that they gave / came scarce to 13. Dallers / it is a matter worthy to be known For about an halff yere paste and more when Horne and Chambers had given warninge openly for certain things that they were offended at / we wote not what / that they would give over their Ecclesiastical ministries / which is no novelty for them to do now / afterward they went about to gather every man's alms to the intent they might seem at their departure from their ministries like good husbands of other mennes liberality to have left something unto the church. But seeing they gathered to this ende / and it was perfectly known to all men that their gathering was for this cause / certainly / we marvel that there was so much as one that would gave any thing / or that the sum which they gave / growed to so much as 13. not Dalers but hallers or phēninges. But Chambers and Horne were not so evil known at that time: now if they liest to assaie / they shall proceiue / that there is not one / that will pu • them in trust with so much as a myte. And yet sins they departed from the congregation / there hath been more given (by the grace off god) unto the poor / then Horne and Chambers have given off their own / all the days off their life.

The objection against the 29. Article.

This law hath these discōmodities: that first / it discloseth the thing ouermuche / that those which were wont to be liberal unto us / are moste desirous to keep close / secondly / it is preiuditiall to private men which have felt many men's private beneficence. Thirdly it nippeth and thwitethe away a great deal off that liberality / which might come to us / in that we so appointe a strange collectour / and vnknowē to the givers. Fourthelie it doth wondrous suspiciously import the infamy off certain that have used these labors. Fiftlie / it shall strike a fear and a terror unto the giver when he must se so many hands subscribed to public letters and by this reason they shall be eloigned from us that would gladly succor the poor.

Sixthly / it shall be excedinge hurtefull to other congregations / and a loss to all other banished men / wheresoerver they are dispersed. Finally / thes so openly ordained laws shall signify unto our Queen that we norishe and sustain our congregation by hir subjects. And that shall off necessity cause / that they which were wont to give us some what shall be moste diligently sought out to their vndooinge and our moste pestilente plage.

The answer.

Here is maniefolde fyndinge off fault as in a matter off moste weighty importance / and wherewith Master Horne and Master Chambers are wonderfully rubbed on the gall. But passinge over the first member as vain / and mingled with others / we will first speak of the seconde. If this be to the prejudice off private men / what have yow Master Horne and Master Chambers done / which now a great while have by your messengers and letters stopped all the private almoses off all men / and drawn them into your own hands? And that yow / Master Horne / threatened out off the pulpit that yow would do / and that yow would make poor miserable men to eat haye. Where they speak off an unknown collectour / we answer / that the less he shall be commonly known / the less danger shall he cause to them / that he shall have to do with all. For those collectors off yours / are now by this your diligence in gathering (would to god ye were as liberal in distributinge) and by these your close and moste discreet means / so known / that no man dare bydd them god speed / much less talk withe them.

Therefore it is wondrous fine / that Master Horne hath forged here concerning an unknown colectour▪ where he saithe that a fear and a terror shall be stricken into such as shall see many names subscribed / we understand not howe that cā be. It seemeth he would say / that our messagers will show not our names but the messagers names subscribed. Furthermore / we demanded off Chambers and Horne / why they have done the same now these 3 years / and compelled men • o subscribe against their willes. In them this is a godly matter in us an horrible abomination.

Where he saith / that this will be exceedinge Hurtefu • l to h • r congregations / certeinlie / it hath been a most an vndooinge both to our congregation and others tha • M Horne and M. Chambers have in this behalff done yet hithertoo / For one while they say / they have gathered alonely for this congregation: When any body off another church (ye must understand) crave ought off them An other while they boast that they have a great deal for other congregations / that is when they be offended with us as they are now moste grievously. For now (we believe) they will say plainly they have nothing for our poor / therefore though they speak it not / yet / they show openly by their deeds that they have all to themselves / and keep all to themselves. Where he saithe / the Queen shall understand by this means that our congregations are norished by hir subjects▪ how so? Doo we name English men? or universally all good men by whose liberallitie the poor off our congregation be norished? But the Queen will suspecte some thing off hir subjects. O fine wit • e men: She suspected nothing forsoothe before we wrote this discipline. That / that he hath in the fourth place set as i • were / in the middle rank in safety / we saw not▪ therefore / we will speak off it last But this is the grievous matter off all / and that which alone tormenteth these men in deed. for other causes are pretended / but this is the very thing whence (as the man saithe) comethe all this anguish and anger too / forsoothe it will be suspected (saith he) iff some other collecte in the name off the congregation / that we like not Chambers collection / nor Horns and his distribution. Hereoff will all these weighty discommodities grow / that they two (ye must understand) may not be in so great authority with all men / nor be such buggarddes to the poor if they may not bear the bag alone. O grievous and intolerable evils that will grow off these suspicions. In deed they make an ende off all this place withe plain tragical terms: this gear (saith he) shall cause vndooinge and a moste pestilent plage unto the congregation.

We wonder that he cried not out also▪ o heaven / o earth / o neptunes seas / but where they fear them selves so much off suspicions / we believe / they may be out off peradventure in a while. For all men will with in a short time (as far as we see) give over to suspect what manner off men Horne and Chābers be. Finally what fault so ever they find with us in all this adoo touching the messager to be sent / they themselves have utterly forced us by extremity and violence to attempt it. For seeing Chambers wou • d give nothing being present / but unto certain off his own / and is now run away with the purce / we are utterly constrained to take this way / that our poor perish not for famine.

The objection against the 30. Article.

This is amiss / that the Deacons are bownden to visit the poor only / to know iff they need: seeing it is chiefly required that they may exhort / that they may comfort / that they may relieve such consciences as be sick and burdened with sins. A man may ask them where it appeareth by plain words off the scriptures / that it is the Deacons office to receive and keep the treasures off the church / and that they alone ought to excecute and accomplish this office.

The Answer.

Let the Deacons visit all sick folk vn • uersallie if they will and exhort them and comfort them / we forbid thē not. Only we show that they are bownden by reason off their office peculiary to have charge off the poor. Where they say it is chiefly required that deacons should exhort and comfort the sick consciences off them that are diseased: Iff they say they be bownde to do that by reason off their office / let them prove it / that they do not only say all things. But if they respect Christian pity towards their brethren / neither do we exempte from the Deacons / that which is the common duty off all Christians. But for as much as they have burdened the Deacons before / with unnecessary charges as concerning the office off Deacons / by reason whereof they fraied many from that right godly office off Deacons / we have thought good to declare what things they be which properly appertain to the Deaconshipp / and what be the common dewties off all Christians. And lease these men might justly complain as touching the lake off exhortinge and comforting the sick / that matter is sufficiently provided for by the ministers off the word unto whom that charge doth chiefly appertain and by other learned men also. And to that question that they harp upon again / it is thoroughly answered in the 4. Article In that they require plain words off scrip • ure off us we cannot marvel enough / seeing they neither prove or show any thing / either by plain words or obscure words: but as though we were scollere and they scoolemasters off Pithagoras rule / they only say and affirm all things and confirm nothing. But they promise they will do it at leisure and god before. And that is enough we trow.

The objection against the 38. Article.

The time is ill appointed. it were a great deal better after the marte / for the auoidinge off rumor and blowinge off dissensions which may arise as it is now in example.

The answer.

The time is appointed well enough. For these dissensions are not to be imputed to times / but to men. And we trust that we shall by the grace off God have hensfoorthe goodmen that shall quietlie geuerne the church in the true • fear off god and love to their brethren.

The objection against the 44. Article.

The 44. Article speaketh manifestly against the edicte off the Senate. For there it is specified by these clear and manifest words. Furthermore the Senate off this honorable city hath decreed / that iff their arise any dissention or contentions among the strangers / concerning Religion or their Discipline / they be set at one with all diligence by the ministers and Seniors specially for this cause / lease those which profess themselves to be banished mē out of their country for true Religions sake / utter an evil token what their mind is by reason off such controversies and debates. And in case the matter cannot be apeased before the ministers and elders let them know that the Senate off this city will take order therein / who as reason is / will look moste sharply upon the Authors off such troubles.

The answer.

It is not against the meaning off the edicte / as it was declared by the Magistrates themselves in our church before all the congregation the last off February / by the mouthe off Master Valeran polaine / and the said Magistrates / (seeing the sentence pronounced by the said Master Valeran and written out by us / allowed it / according whereunto / this decree is all together set forth.

The objection against the 46. Article.

This law doth not sufficiently forsee and provide for the quietness off the congregation / vnle • in this greater parte / the pastor and seniors be included / whose authority men ought not to bring into such cōtempt that we would so easily reject them. The multitude is off their own disposition / ouermuche licentious and grudginge at every superior power and this law is also against the edicte off the Senate.

The answer.

Iff the ministers and Elders will be present no man warneth them: if they will not / who will force them against their willes? It is impertinent that he saith / they be easily reject / which will not come when they be desired / or when they be present depart upon their own will. Where he saithe / that this decree is also contrary to the edicte off the Senate / it is not enough / except he prove it.

The objection against the 49. Article.

The subscribinge is over hardly and constrainedly done specially in so often alteration and innovation off laws as as they speak off.

The answer·

The subscribinge is not over hadly nor constrainedly done but so much the less hardly and cōstainedly / in that there is an easy way shown to redress If any thing be done amiss: Where these men would have their decrees to be reputed for holy sacred cannons which may not be moved. And as for this subscribinge / which they say is so constrained and hard / besides that it is provided for by the edicte off the Senate / it is required also in their old discipline and institution.

The objection against the 54. Article.

The authority off the pastor and Seniors is all wiped away. For every thing is referred to the confused multitude of the congregation.

The answer.

Excepte the matter be used as we have provided in the Discipline / both the authority and liberty off the congregation is wiped away / and a mere tyranny estblished. Where he saith all thing is referred to the confused multitude / it is manifestly false. For it is always added by such as the congregation shall appointe thereto: as it is also in the 54. article added / in plain words.

The objection against the 57. Article.

This Law is also contrary to edicte off the Senate.

The answer.

This should not be said but shown.

The objection against the 58. Article.

The assembly off 4. 6. 8. or 10. is troublously done and without order / and will stir up new tumults daily in the congregation. Such laws as this condemn the authority and counsel off the Elders.

The answer.

Horne and Chambers condemn the assembly off 4. 6. 8. or •• . men for peace mak • nge: Where they have almost every day these 3. months gathered corner creepinge assemblies to disturb the peace of the church.

The objection against the 59. Article.

The 59. article is manifestly repugnant against the 56. Article.

The answer.

The 59. is not repugnant against the 56. article for there is entreated off civil controversies and here off others.

The objection against the 63. Article.

This law also is against the edicte off the Senate.

The answer.

It is not against the meaning off the edicte / as it is declared in the answer to the 15. Article. For it was declared by the right honorable and godly Magistrates openly in our church / that they thought nothing less then to impeche the lawful authority off the congregation. And except the congregation which giveth authority to ministers be superior to the ministers / they are not now ministers / but lords off the congregation / as to add no further.

The objection to the 68. article.

In this place we desier that our old discipline may be looked upon / that we may se whither it be / to be so lightly caste away / seeing it proceeded off so learned men / and shall with a mean amendinge be far perfecter then this new Discipline.

The answer.

Where they desier that the old Discipline may be looked upon / we answer / the more they shall look upon it / the more euedently shall the naughtynes and imperfection off it appear / And it shall also more plainly appear howe much the congregation hath been beholdinge to them that have retained such an vnperfit discipline so long in the church / only / by cause it permitteth all to the pastor. Where they say that the Discipline proceeded off so learned men / yet / the same that wrote it / (were they never so well learned) confess themselves both that it was gathered in haste / and given to the congregation as imperfit / only for a time. Where • hey speak off the amending off that Discipline / we marueille that it never came into their mind before.

The objection against the 72. Article.

That concerning testaments in this dangerous world is a pernicious Law.

The answer.

We cannot tell what serpent the law concerning Testaments hath lurkinge under the herb. They say it is a pernicious law / and they only say so / But we say it is very wholesome / and profitable against the fraud off falsaries and to the succors of the fatherless and widows.

The objection the 73. Article.

Quietnes is not sufficiently provided for by this means / in as much as it is commanded (as it were) that everyone should look and study for an innovation.

The answer.

Quietnes / is provided for sufficiently / in as much as the matter must pass quietlye and peaceablie / and also by writings men's consciences / are also necessarely provided for / that in case any thing be found in the Ecclesiastical ordinances ungodly or disagreinge / or ells unprofitable for the church it may be changed straight ways / so as men's pleasures be not holden for holy / sacred / and vnmouable as the papists would.

The obiectours conclusion.

In all this a do / we say this for a conclusion / that there be three things / which they only seek / the innovation off ministers / a purse and treasure / I wote not what / and the purginge off their own offenses before committed

Now have we alleged as much as we handsomely could bring / considering the time. We would also have alleged very many other things / so as it should plainly appear / that our brethren have in ordeininge their Discipline respected neither so great weighty reasons / nor so great commodities off our congregation But have in the mean while given that / that shall be offensive and slanderous to all good men / and to our adversaries and gods enemies the papists high reioycinge and pleasure. The book off the old-discipline with a very little and small correction and amending would cause many more plentiful fruits off Christian hearts to be brought forth / and would settle a great deal more constant and more durable quietness among us.

The answer to the conclusion.

In all this adoo / Master Horne and Master Chambers go about nothing ells but to disquiete the congregation / that Horne might rule the roste over all: Chambers bear the bag alone / and they 2. together exercise a moste unworthy lordshipp over the poor / and by them all other / and that they might have no certain discipline / but that their pleasures might be holden for laws / and that nothing should be thought right or stand in force but what they do / yet hithertoo / and the same they go about now: And it semethe they have utterly determined either to establish a tyranny / or to leave no common wealth at all in the congregation. Where Horne and Chambers make rehearsal here off the purginge off offenses committed by us / they ought justly to have been ashamed to make mention off offenses seeing they have never left for these 3. or 4. Monethes to lade themselves with wicked doings And as for occasion of offense and slander given to good and godly men and to our adversaries and gods enemies the papists high reioicinge and pleasure / they accuse us thereof so falsely / as they themselves have given the occasion in deed.

For they could never abide to have any thing amended nor themselves to be admonished off any thing / or to be cōmoned withal in any wise. But for the moste light / yea / no causes in deed / they forsook their ministry straight ways / the pastor forsook the flock / the Treasurer the poor and both forsook the church and moved others by their example to do the same.

Neither was it enough for them to give over their own functions but they must draw other preachers and readers with them also / to the intent the congregation should by this means be destitute off God's word / and utterly scattered as though it cold not possibly stand without them. And when they had forsaken their own church / they haunted / partly the french church and partly / the dewtche churches and so raised rumors abroad and spread our dissensions / first / though this city and then thorough other cities off Germany. And last off all / when they would not come to the church in the marte time / but by the Magistrates commandment / neither could they then be quiet they spreed the like rumors almost throughowt all Europe.

And when they have played these prancks themselves / they charge us with their own faults and go about to lay the infamy upon us which they themselves have stirred up. Iff yow shall cry out that old matters are rehearsed by this means / yow ought to have abstained from prouokinge us hereunto: neither to have mentioned offenses committed / old subscriptions / ne yet to have called us us back thus to the old discipline the fountain off all contentions.

The names subscribed to the objections with a postscripte.

• Robart Horne
• Edward Isaac
• Richard Chambers
• Christopher Brickbeck
• Anthony Mahewe
• Richard David's
• Cutbert warcope
• Robart Harrington
• John Binkes
• John Escot.
• Nicholas caru •••
• John Machet.

The rest off our consentinge brethren we could not call together unto this subscribinge / by reason off shortness of time / whose names shall be put afterward having your H. licences thereto.

The answer to the postscripte.

Where they complain off shortness of time in the ende as they did in the beginning / and that they could not by reasen thereof cal their cōsentinge brethren together to the subscribinge: What meaneth that? For where they have set to the names off them which dwell most far asunder and have left out almost none but the names off their own servants whom they have always at a beck / yet they could not call the rest off their brethren together forsoothe / to the intent they might by this shift make a show to such as know not the matter / off some multitude off men off some estimation which are leste out. And they desier also as in a matter off weight that they may set too the names off the others afterwards. And as here in the ende / they vaunte a certain show of some great multitude that will subscribe: Even so / in the beginning and in many other places of their book they make a great brag as though they would exhibit some notable matter to the magistrate / so they may have time enough given them to bethink themselves. But master Horne and master Chambers shall with these their mighty and great promises both off subscriptions declarations and confirmations bring • to pass as good as nothing. But yet this they are desirous to bring to pass in the mean time / that whiles these gaye glorious promises off thers be looked for / they may a longe time hinder the peace and quietness off the church which their only desier is to have disquieted. And iff it be possible that thei may recover a moste intolerable lordeshipp over the congregatiō or in case they cannot obtain the chief state in the cōgregatiō / that they may leave the church in worst / or in no state at all / but that they may rend̄ it and all to scatter it. Theis be the devises off Horne and Chambers. Theis be therfetches / right honorable and most righteous Magistrates. And yet we have no distruste but almighty god for his mercies sake towards our most afflicted church / and that your authority for your equities sake and singular benevolence towards us / will withstand the same.

And for as much as we have proved that one off these things which they have reprehended in our discipline / be other against gods word / or against good reason: and for as much also as we are ready to prove / that all things contained in our Discipline / are taken out either off Goodes word or off the edicte off the Senate and Magistrate / either out off their own old discipline which they stick so fast unto / either ells off the judgment off good reason / we humbly beseech the right honorable and righteous magistrates that they will vouchsaffe to confirm it with their authority.

Whereas both partes gave consent that certain others / very worshippfull / should also deal in this controversy between them / to appease (if it might be) the same I have here following placed the order which they took for their quietness.

The answer off the church to this offer / or the effect off the same.

This controversy which yow have now hard from the • 3. off January hitherto. I find written by the hands off such as are both learned and off credit / but yet / I must needs say / by those that were parties in this broyle. And for so much as Master Chambers in this controversy is very sore charged among the rest: who yet / was thought off many wise and godlymen / to be very godly / upright / and honest / and so no dowte he took his leave of this lyffe: I have therefore here thought good to place a letter which is yet off his own hand to be seen / wrytinge the same in his own defense touching these matters so as the reader wayinge both the one and the other / may use his judgment with discretion▪

Now / Whiles these sharp and grievous contentions grew more and more at Franckf. (as ye have hard) many things happened in other places which may in this place be shortly touched / to the glory off god (I hope) and also / to the great comfort off the godly / who may by the same / behold moste evidently the marvelous providence off God toward his poor afflicted and dispersed church.

After that M. Bartue and the dutches of Sulff. were saffely arrived at Wezell in Westphalia / the brute thereof was the cause that moo English people in short time resorted thither. It pleased god also / that M Coverdale (after that he had been withe the king of Denmark) should come to the same Town / who preached there no longe time / till he was sent for by woulgange duke off bypont / to take the pastoral charge off Bargzaber / one off his Towns off Germany at whose coming to the duke / he made it know̄ / both to himself and to other noble mē about him off M.B. and the dutches being in the low countries. They vnderstādinge / the danger that might come unto them in those partes / as also calling to remembrance / what great curteisie strangers had found in England at the dutches hands: made offer that iff they were forced to remove or otherwise if it pleased them / they should have the Castle of Winchaim by Hedleberge within the liberties of Otto Henricus thē Palsgraue and a godly Prince / who most gladly (as well appeared) gave consent to the same. M. Bartuc and the Dutches acceptinge this offer / left Wezeli and came up to the said Castle / and there continued / til leauinge Germany they traueled towards the lande off Pole. The congregation that was at Wezell wantinge among them / partly the comfort which many off them had / by M. B. and my L. being there / and partly also other reasonable considerations mouinge them they left Wezel and followed after: But passinge by Franckf. and perceauinge the contention to be among them so boilinge hot / that it ran over on both sides / and yet no fire quenched: many had small pleasure to tarie there / but went to Basil and other places / whiles M. Leauer made suit to the lords of Berna for a church with in their dominions / whose letters he obtained with great favor to all their subjects for the frindly entertainment off the English nation. Theis letters obtained / M. Leauer / M. Boys / M. Wilforde / M. Pownall and T. Vpchaier / came to Geneva to have the advice off that church what was best to be done touching the erection off a new church. They of Geneva / gave god thanks for that it had pleased him so to incline the hearts off the lords off Berna towards them and gave incouragemēt that they should not let slyppe so good an occasion. M. I. Bodliegh (who was no small stay as well to that church as to others) and W. Ke. he traueiled with them. And passinge thorough many partes of the L. of B. dominion in Savoy and Switzerland / they found such favor in all places where they came / as verelie may be to the great condemnation off all such English men as use the godly stranger (I mean those who come for religion) so vncourteously.

M. Leauer and the company at length chose Arrow for their restinge place / where the congregation lived together in godly quietness among themselves with great favor of the people among whom for a time they were planted.

Not longe after this / Master Horne and master Chambers came by Arrowe to Geneva / seminge at that time to like very well off those congregations / (as the church of Frank. also then did as apearethe by their letters afore) in so much as the said Master Horne and Chambers / did distribute larglie to the necessity of those churches. So that it appeared that the old grudge which had been between the church off Franck. and Geneva had been clean forgotten.

It came to pass not many days after / that the lord began to show mercy unto England in remouinge Queen Mary be death / and placinge the queens majesty that now is (whom god longe preserve) in the seat / the news whereof / as it was joyful to all such as were in exile / So it appeared that the church off Geneva was not behind the rest / who / (after that they had given to god hearty thanks for his great goodness) consulted among themselves and concluded / that (for so much as there had been jars between them and other churches / about the Book off common prayer and ceremonies) it was now expedient and necessary not only that unfeigned reconciliation should be between them but also that they might so join together in matters off religion and Ceremonies / that no Papist or other enemy should take hold or advantage by a farther dissention in their own country / which might arise in time to come / if it were not in time foreseen and prevented. To this ende was William kethe / one off the congregation chosen to do this message / to them off Arrowe / Basel / Strasbrough / Wormes / Franckford &c. And to them off Arrowe and Frankford this letter was written which folowith and subscribed by the ministry in the name off the whole congregation.

NOwe when as W. Kethe was returned to Geneva with answer from the congregations and companies / that were dispersed in sundry places off Germany and Heluetia / the congregation (after that they had rendered their humble thanks to the magistrates for their great goodness towards them prepared themselves to depart saving certain which remained behind the rest / to wit to finish the bible / and the psalms both in meeter and prose / which were already begun / at the charges off such as were off most ability in that congregation. And with what success those works were finished / (especially the Bible) I must leave it to the Iudgementes off the godly learned / who should best Judge off the same.

But if that Bible be such / as no enemy off god could justly find fault with: then may men marvel that such a work / (being so profitable) should find so small favor / as not to be printed again. If it be not faithfully translated / then let it still find as little favor as it doth because off the inconveniences that a false translation brings with it. The Ministers off Geneva in an Epliste which they wrote / before the new Testament have these words.

There is nothing more requisite to attain the right and absolute knowledge off the doctrine off salvation / whereby to resist all heresy and falsehood / then to have the text off the Scriptures faithfully and truly translated / the consideration whereof moved them with one assent (as they say in that Epistle to request 2. off their brethren / to wit / Calvin and Beza / efsonnes to peruse the same notwithstanding their former trauells. Beza also in his Epistle to the prince off condy and nobles of France hath these words. Seinge then all these controversies must be discussed by God's word / I suppose that this thing ought chiefly to be provided for / that seeing all cannot have the knowledge to understand the word off God in these peculiar languages / the Hebrew and the greek (which were to be wished) that there should be some true and apt translation of the old and new testamēte made the which diverse have already labored to bring to pass / but yet no man hath hitherto sufficiently performed it. For the old translation (whose so ever it is) although it ought not to be condemned / yet is it found both obscure imperfect and superfluous and also false in many places / to speak nothing off an infinite variety off the copies. The which text therefore many learned and godly men have labored to amende / but not with like success. And yet howe necessary a thing this is / who so ever shall read those moste learned writers off the gretians / and shall compare their interpretations (which are many times far from the purpose) with the Hebrew verity / he shall confess it with great sorrow.

And the same evil was not only hurtefull among the latten wri •• rs / but also the ignorance off the Greek tongue wherwit • many off them were troubled / whiles they did depend off the common translation / they ofttimes seek a knott in a rushe (according to the old proverb) and fell into moste fowl errors. This cause therefore hath moved me to compare moste diligently the diversity off copies / and to way the sentences and Iudgementes off the moste parte off the learned men specially off them that this age hath brought forth / skillful in the languages / who are moo in number dowteles and better learned then the church hath had sithens the time of the Apostles / and so ease them some what that desier a more pure interpretation.

And that it might be done with more profit I have also added annotations / in the which I have also compared together the diversity off interpetations and as much as I could I have labored to make plain and evident the sense and meaning off all the dark places / &c.

Thus far Beza / by whose Judgment and the rest ye se / that to have the holy Scriptures truly and faithfully translated is a matter off no small importance. Here might I touche a thing parhapp worth the hearing if hope were off redress / which is / that if the learned were but one halff so earneste zealous / and careful / to se that the holy Scriptures in this Realm might be faithfully translated and truly corrected / as they are many times about matters nothing so necessary: I would not dowte to say that they should do unto god an excellent piece off service. For the moste parte off our English Bibles are so ill translated (as the learned report) and so falsely printed (as the simple may find) that such had need to be very well acquainted with scripture / as in many places should get out the true meaning and sense. And it is high time to look unto this / considering / that in moste partes off this Realm preachers ye have none / nor any that can or will preach (very few excepted) saving certain wanderers / amongst whom (and specially in some sheers) are such ruffenly • ak • helles / and cōmō cōsen̄ers permitted and suffered / by whose preachings • the word off truth is become odious / in the eyes off the people. Seinge then (I say) that in moste places / the ministry doth stand and consist of old popish priests / tolerated readers and many new made ministers / whose readinges are such / that the people cannot be edified / especially / where one is tolerated to serve 2. or 3. churches and turninge their backs to the people. I leave to the considera • ion off such (who have to deal in this matter) what great and intolerable mischeiues may come more and more / (by suffringe such corrupted Bibles in churches and ells where) to the poor simple flock off Christ. But now to draw to an ende. ye se (brethren) by this brieff and short discourse / that the grudge whereupon this dissention hangethe is paste the age off a child / and therefore may (without offense I hope) be called an old grudge / which / as it seemeth / was never yet thoroughly healed / as will more and more appear / as this discourse shall be from time to time continued / till it be brought even to this present time / which time verily / is so extreme as the like hath rarely been hard off. For it is come to pass / that iff any should but with a godly grief bewail the imperfections that remain and crave for redress: yea / but suspected / or should but by malice off an Atheist / a Papist / or Epicure be presented: such are not only reviled and taunted / scoffed at and termed by these odious names off precisian / puritain / contentious / seditious / rebel / traitor and what not: but also if he come once in presence off the Bishopps / and subscribe not to what so ever they will / then / (if he have living) to be deprived / or whither he have living or not / be he learned or unlearned / be he man or woman / halt or blind / to prison he must / without all redemption.

I will not say that (in the mean time) such as are turn coats and can change with all seasons / subscribinge to what so ever / and can cap it can cope it an curry for advantage / that such / I say / how ignorant / how vicious / and ungodly so ever they be / live at their ease in all pleasure and in some place are thought to be moste meet men for the ministry. But this I may be bold to affirm / that / (although in very deed I neither do nor dare condemn certain godly persons / who off infirmity / but yet with most sorrowful and heavy hearts (as hath well appeared by their most lamentable protestations with plenty off tears to their congregations) have yielded to more then expedient it were they should / (praying the lord to let them se it in time) yet / it may not only be said / but proved too I trust / that neither is subscribinge always a sure note off good subject nor yet the refusal dew proffes off a rebel.

The greatest Traitors and rebels that godly Kinge Edward had in the weste partes / were priests / and such as had subscribed to the book or what so ever by law was then in force / but for all their subscribings / there was no skirmishe / where some off those subscribers left nor their karkaises in the filde against god and their prince. Plumtree and his fellow priests off the northe / I dowte not but they were conformable and appliable to all orders and never staggered at subscriptions. But for all that / time tried their traitorous hearts.

But in all the sturres which have happened either sithens the Queens majesty came to the crown or before I have not hard off so m • che as one (minister or other) that hath lifted up his hand against hir majesty or state / whom it pleaseth the envious and malicious man / to term precision / and puritain in great despite and contempt. In deed / this have I found out and learned / that even such as must be cōtente and patiently bear those odious names of puritane precisian / traitor / and rebel / have yet been the men / who moste faithfully (in their calling) have served the queens majesty and their country both with in the realm and without the realm in Garnison and in filde / hazardinge their bodies against hargabuze and cannon / when as those who now so furiously charge them both out off pulpits and other places durst not or at leste would not in any such service off the prince and country be seen. For proffe hereoff / if yow call to remembrance / who hazardid his life with that old / Honorable Earl off Bedford when as he was sent to subdue the popish rebels off the weste / yow shall find that none off the clergy were hasty to take that service in hand / but only old father Coverdale. When moste likelode was off danger between the Sko •• s and us / the preacher to the soldiers was first Master Sampson / and afterward Master Greshopp when as the right honorable Earl off Bedford that now is had there the charge. The Earl off warwick at his being in Newhauen / had in deed with him certain Ministers for a time / but after that the Cannon came and began to roar / and the plage off pestilence so terriblie to rage / then (I ween) not a Minister there left / but Master Kethe alone. And whē as means were made to have mo Ministers over / to aide the said Kethe (who had so much to do / what with preaching / and visitinge the poor sick Souldiars which were in no small numbers) there could not be found (as that right noble Earl can upon his honor testify so much as one which could be brought to so much comformity / as to subscribe to any such service off the Queens Majesty.

When S▪ Henry Sidney had to do with the Popish rebels pff Ireland. Master Christop. Goodman shown his faithful diligence in that service. When the Earl off warwick was sent to subdue the popish rebels in the north-partes / the preachers off the Queens majesties Army were Kethe / Temes / and standon who offered themselves in that service voluntarily without all constraynte. And thus it is euidente / that these with a number moo who are now so ill thought off / as iff they were traitors and rebels / have yet been so far off from bring seditious / that they have at all times adventured their lives against seditious persons and rebels / when as such as now so hardly charge them both by word and writing / have been right heartily well content / to take their ease and rest at home.

Consideringe then / how many ways we are unjustly burdened and brought into hatred without just cause / I supposed / that no godly man would be offended / if by such lawful means as I might / I sought both to purge my self and the rest off my brethren / from such heinous and odious crimes as some would seem to charge us. And that could I not do so well any way / as by the gathering together off this discourse / wherein the indifferent reader shall find / that the religion which we hold and profess / is not only the true and sincere religiō of Christ / and the self same with all the reformed churches in Christendom / but also that which this Realm hath established / touching the true doctrine commonly taught therein. By this discourse also / yt may be seen / both when / where / how / and by whom this controversy first began / who continued it / who was on the suffering side and who readieste to forget and forgive / that godly peace and concord might be had. Now / iff any shall seem to be offended with this that I had don / I do moste humbly beseech them / to way well and expende with themselves / first / whither I have given them any such cause / if it be for that I have in this discourse brought to light some thing that might have been kept secret / (the contention being among brethren) to the ende the common enemy should not have cause to triumph; let this satisfy them: first / that the wicked and common enemy cannot (for his heart) more tryumphe over the Godly then he doth already and that through out this whole realm. Again / the cruelty off Cain to Abel / off Ishmael to Isaac / off Esau to Jacob / off the Patriarchs to their brother Joseph / the hot contention between Paul and Barnabas and Paul and Peter &c. all these being known / to the world hath turned notwithstanding to the great glory off God / as my assured hope is that even this will also in the ende.

And therefore / as the lord off heaven knoweth that the keepinge off these things almost by the space off these twenty years in secret / might suffice to witness with me that I had now no great pleasure to utter it / so I wote not howe it commethe to pass that even in the midst off great striving / and struglinge with my self what to do / I could not be by any means resolved / or se just cause / why I should any longer conceal it.

If any should think that I have not with indifferency / penned the story: I refer me (to satisfy such) to the judgments and consciences off those persons / who were the plaiers off this tragedy / (off both partes many yet living) assuringe my self that neither part shall be able justly to charge me / except it be for that in very deed I have sought rather howe to cover many things / then to lay them wide open to the world / as I nothing dowte to prove iff I might be but hard indifferently / in so much as in this discourse I have (as much as I could) passed over the names off all where credit might seem to have been impaired thereby (saving only off such as were off very necessity to be noted for the better understanding off the history.

To conclude: against the offenses which some may take at these my trauells / I have set the great profit that this may bring to gods church and to the posterity / who being taught by other men's harms (if they be happy) will learn to beware the hope whereof had greater force to pushe my pen forward to the finishinge off this work / then the displeasures off certain (arisinge so far as I se off no ground) could be to withdraw me from the same. besechinge almighty god so strenghē me with his holy spirit / that what troubles or trials so ever shall by the lords good providence happen to me hereby / he will vouchsaffe to give me a contented mind quietly and with patience to bear it / before whom I proteste / that in wrytinge this discourse I have had respect to his glory / the defense off his sacred truth / the cleeringe / so far as I might / off so many excellent learned men (on whose necks this stir is laid as authors off the same) and not that I have willingly sought the hurt / hindrance / or discredit off any man.

The answer off the ministers off Geneva to certain brethren off the church off England concerning some controversy in the Ecclesiastical policy.

THus have yon hard in these .2. letters / the Iudgementes off those excellent churches of the french and the Skottishe touching the things in controversy. Now / if to these I should add all other which are off the same Judgment and of their opinion: the number off churches would be so many / that the adversaries should evidently se and perceive what small cause they have to charge us thus with singularity / as though we were post alone / and none to be off our opinion. And it may here also be noted / that the moste auncientest fathers of this our own country / as master Coverdale / master D. Turner / master Whithead / and many others some dead some yet living from whose mouths and pens / the vrgers of these received first the light off the gospel (could never be brought to yield or consent unto such things as are now forced with so great extremity.