The State of the Church of England

MIne host, I pray you stay with me and my friend M. Tertullus, and tell us some news, for we are lately come out of Scotland, and would hear before we come nere London, in what state things do stand, least we coming on a sudden, speed as ill as we did at Edinburgh, and S. Andrew's.

Good my Lord, I can tell you no great news, for I go not so far as to Church once in a month, but if I do happen to go, one of my servants doth come for me in all haste, to make merry with one guest or other, but there be two in this house that came from London, if it please your L. I will entreat one of them to come unto you, it may be he can tell you something.

I pray thee do so: you are welcome my friend, I understand that you came from London, I pray you tell me some news for I having been in Scotland, some space, have not heard much of the state of England.

My L. I hear no news, but that our Bishops (God's blessing have their hearts for it) say pretty well, by one and by one, to these precise and hot Preachers, for some of them are put to silence, some of them close prisoners in the Gate-house, some well loden with irons in the White-lyon, and some in the Clinke, I hope to see them one day all put down, for they trouble the whole land, and are neither contented to obey the authority of these holy fathers, neither yet will suffer us to live as our forefathers have done before us, and here is a good fellow which I met yesterday upon the way, who is just of their opinion.

I know not of what religion he of whom you speak is of but I am sure that he hath many of our Preachers qualities, for which I like him the worse, for since our Preacher came, I have not gained half so much as heretofore I did, but if I had but every night such a guest, within one month all men would refrain from coming to mine house, and so I might beg.

Why mine host, what are his qualities that you dislike so much?

What? I will tell you, as soon as ever he lighted, my man that took his horse, chanced but to swear by God, and he was reproving of him by and by, and a gentleman cannot come in this evening, in any place where he is, but he is finding faut with him for one thing or another: and when he should go to supper, with other gentlemen, sitting at the lower end of the table, he would needs say grace (forsooth) before and after supper, and so stay them that were hungry, from their meat the longer, and from their sleep afterward but one wiser then the rest, served him in his kind, for he started up saying: my father had never grace said before meat, neither will I have any.

I perceive he is one of these peevish puritans, that troubled the Church, when my friend and I went into Scotland, have not the Bishops yet suppressed them, neither by countenance, nor by authority?

Suppressed; No my Lord, a frind of mine writ unto me, that one of their Preachers said in a pulpit, he was persuaded that there were 100000 of them in England, and that the number of them increased daily in every place of all estates and degrees.

I am sory for that, I marvel that you never told me of it.

I did of purpose conceal it, least, together with your ill success that you, and so consequently I, had in Scotland, your grief should have been aggravated, for I know how that the growing of them doth grieve you.

You may be sure, that it would have grieved me, if you had told me that, when you told me of the increasing of your friends the Papists, I think I should have died for sorrow.

I know that, therefore did I keep it cloase, but if news had come in like monne, of the growing of the Catholic religion unto your man, that Puritan knave, he would have told it you at the first, and so have molested you the more.

You say well, and I percciue it is better to have a Papist, than a Puritan in an house, and more charity to do for them.

Your Lordship asked me forsome news, but your speech of your being, and ill success that you had in Scotland, giveth me occasion, to inquire of you (if I may be so bold) Some Scottish news.

Ah my host, though it grieve me to think upon it, yet it easeth my stomach to tell it out. The Puritans in Scotland, have got up their discipline, and utterly overthrown all the sovereignty of Bishops, by which they prevailed so mightily, that we feared our fall in England shortly to ensue, whereupon I was sent together with this my friend, who came out of France into England, to go and seek the subversion of their great assemblies, and the rest of their jurisdiction, wherein I prevailed a while, but now it is worse, than ever it was.

How came it to pass, that when you had gotten some ground, you held it not?

Because the whole land cried out for Discipline again, and the noble men so stiffly did stand to it, and lastly, the Ministers that came home from England, dealt so boldelie with the King, that I was utterly cast out without all hope, ever to do any good there again, and now I make homeward in haste, least I loose all there also, but I pray you help me to speak with that Puritan, I shall learn more by him, because he is better acquainted with the cause than either of you.

He may soon know more in that case than I, for I promise you, mine only study is in my counting house, to see my money, and when each parcel is due unto me.

And I meddle with nothing but my In-keeping, as for these controversies and this scripturing, I never trouble myself with it, but I will go to him to see whether I can get him to come to your Lordship: but before I go, I must beseech you to say nothing to him as from me, for you know, I must be friendly to all, least I leese my custom, and drive away some of my guests.

Great reason, for every man must live of his trade, neither must you tell him what I am.

Sir, here be certain gentlemen in another chamber, that hearing of your coming from London, would gladly speak with you.

Whence are they can you tell?

They are English men, but they are but new come out of Scotland.

I am willing to go to them, though it be late, and so much the rather, because I long to hear some good news from thence.

Here is the Gentleman that you desired to speak withal.

You are welcome my frind, I was desirous to speak with you, for that I perceive you came from London, I pray you, can you tell us any good news?

No surely, for I am a very ill observer of such things.

You seem to be a Minister, can you tell me what good success my Lord's the Bishops have in their proceedings?

They have too good success, they wax worse and worse, they grow even to the height of their iniquity, so that I hope their kingdom will not stand long.

Why sir, what do they, that they offend you so grievously?

They stop the mouth of the sheepeheardes, and set at liberty the ravening wolves, and turn the foxes among the lambes.

I must desire you to express your mind more plainly, for you seem to be so possessed with discontentment, that it maketh you to speak (as it were) snatchingly.

I confess myself discontented, and greatly grieved, but yet not so much, as to make me less able to express my mind.

I pray you therefore, lay open your former speeches, that I may understand your meaning.

My meaning is this; That there are three abominations committed by them: The first is, that they do bear such an enmity against the kingdom of Jesus Christ, that they put to silence one after another, and will never cease (if God bridle them not) until they have rooted out of the Church, all the learned, godly, and painful teachers: The second is, that they enlarge the liberty of the common enemies the papists: The last is, that they commit the feedinge of the flocks of Christ, unto those that prey upon them, and either cannot, or will not labor to reclaim the wandering sheep. So that the conclusions that may be gathered upon their actions, must needs be the euersion and overthrow of the Gospel, and so consequently the bringing in of popery and atheism.

They put none to silence, but the puritans, who do indeed more hurt than good.

I know no puritans, if there be any, it is meet that they be put to silence: But Satan taught the Papists, so to name the ministers of the Gospel, and you are his instrument in continuing the same rerme.

I mean them, that are not contented with the estate, but mislike the government of the Church, and would have a new form of government, which would mar all.

Woulde you have them contented with Antichristian prelates, to be rulers of the spouse of Christ, when as the word of God hath prescribed expressly, another form direct contrary to that?

I am a doctor of divinity at the least, and yet could I never read anything in the word of God, contrary to this government, neither yet to speak of any other, but that the ordering of the Church is left to the discretion of the wise and learned.

Yes, you have read it, if God had given you eyes to see it: But if your study had been principally to advance God's glory, and benefit his Church, which you never aimed at, but rather preferred vain glory and gain, you should easily have found it. I pray you therefore, when you come to London, see if you can get these books: the Ecclesiastical Discipline: A learned discourse of Ecclesiastical government: The Counterpoyson: A Sermon upon the 12. to the Romans, & M. Cartwrites last reply: some of which books have been extant this dozen years, and yet are none of them answered, and you shall find it otherwise.

If their Lordsh, were taken away, the credit of the Gospel would fall to the ground, and men would not regard it.

Nay, their jurisdiction maketh it not to be regarded, for the simplicity of the Gospel, cannot match with such outward pomp, it was of more credit before their calling was hatched, than ever it was since.

I hope never to see thē overthrown, and I think they will never give over their Byshopricks.

I am of your mind, that they will never give them over, they have such experience of the gain of them, the use of the bag prevailed so much with one of their Apostles, that rather than he would lack money, he would sell Jesus Christ himself.

You speak too unreverantly and vncharitablie of these holy fathers.

Surely I have so much experience of their impious dealing, that I can no better esteem of them in respect of their plaees, than of the enemies of God, but as they be men, I will not cease to pray for them, that God would open their eyes, that they may see their sins, and repent, which is the best way to deal charitablie with them.

I pray you tell ne why these men be put to silence, I am sure it is for their notorious misdemeanor.

I will tell you wherefore some of them were put to silence; one had conference with a Bishop about subscription, and he was restrained for that he gave his friend a copy of his conference, another, because he taught that the Church of Antichrist was no parte of the Church of God, another, because his prayers before and after Sermons were too long, and such like.

Away, it is rather for not observing the book of common prayer, than for any such thing as you speak of.

Indeed many are suppressed therefore, but if any man will give them their titles and authority, they will give him leave to use his discreation with the Book, as we see by experience, for they use the Book and ceremonies as brieles to curb them that ki • k at their lordliness, which is the only thing that they mind.

Well, I love not to hear these reverend fathers so abused, and therefore I pray you talk no more of it, but if it please you, you may depart.

I am contented, only let me request you this one thing, that for so much as GOD hath given you learning, you would pray unto God, to guide you with his grace, that you abuse it not to your own destruction, but employ it to his glory, and the good of his church.

I thank you for your good counsel, and so fare you well, we will talk more in the morning.

With a good will: I pray God our talk may tend to a good end.

M. Demetrius and mine host, howe like you this fellew? is he not a saucy merchant, to presume thus to speak against those that were Preachers before he was borne? But this is the misery of our nation, that every young boy will take upon him to reach the ancient, and to reprove them, for that their green heads think that to be true.

Your Lordship saith very well, I pray you forget not to urge him with that in the morning. For it must needs make him mute.

I promise you he is a bold fellow, it is no marvel, if such as he is, do stand stiff against us that be unlearned, seeing they be so bold with you, I tell you, he took me up as if I had been but a kitchen boy, and all because I said I lived by my monie, and was of no other trade, calling me caterpiller, thief, and murderer, and said plainly, that he that robbed in Stran-gate hole, was an honester man than I.

You must take heed, that you do not oppress your brother too much, but as for these fellows, it is their manner to be so bitter and sharp, that they do ever with their preaching, more hurt than good.

I hope you will course him tomorow for it: but I pray you my L. let me have a little talk between you and me, of a matter that now cometh in my mind; this man that is with you, and went and came in your company, what is he?

To be plain with you, he is a Papist.

Papists are enemies to the Queens religion and laws; I do therefore much marvel, that he should be put in trust by the Bishops.

The cause is this, he light into the familiarity of one of our friends, who confuted a Book called the Abstract, and helped him so painfully with reasons out of the Rhemish testament, and other such like writers, to confute the Puritans, that he was thought a fit man above all other of his religion, to go with me.

Why, could you not have had another of your relgion, but you must needs have a Papist your assistant?

No, no, if I had not had a Papist with me, I could never have looked to have prevailed.

Why so? I pray you tell me the reason of that.

Because our dignities and government, cometh wholly and every part thereof from the Pope, and is ruled and defended by the same canons, whereby his popedom is supported. So that if I had wanted their helps, I had had none authority, either from God or man, no help either by reason or learning, whereby I could have been furthered.

Why did you not rather take some doctor of the Arches, to go with you?

That was consulted upon before I went, but it was not thought meet, because the most of them would never deal in that law at home, but only because they know not else howe to live, & therefore it was feared that they would not be sufficiently diligent in a matter that concerneth others. And for the rest (who indeed) be the same men they were in Queen Mary's time, we durst not carry any of them from home, for none defend our kingdom thorowlie but they.

Me thinks this man should be an unfit assistant, for if he be a right Papist, he will labor to erect the Popes kingdom, and so to cross you.

No question but he did so, and that made for us, for albeit we would if we might, of the twain, keep rather the protestants religion with our dignities than the other, yet had we rather change our religion, than to forgo our privileges; this I tell you between you and me, but I would have it go no further.

Do the old popish doctors stand you in such gret steed, me think you might have had learned lawyers for cuerie place before this time, and have turned them out:

It is true, but we have received them of purpose (man) for we can bear, I tell you, with their religion, so that they do bear up our authority: do you not see likewise, that we have reserved ma • my popish prists in the ministry, whereof diverse do yet remain, which we have done upon special consideration: to wit, least there should be too many learned, not one whereof will stand to us, sane only they that either have, or look to have better preferment, or live more easily than S. Paul's Epistles will allow them.

I have been bold to trouble your L. I will now leave you for this time, I will come unto you in the morning to breakfast.

You shall be welcome unto me at all times, for I perceive you are none of them that favor the Puritans.

My L. your breakfast is ready, will you have them come to you that were here yesternight.

I would have him that tarried yesternight so late, for he is a very honest gentleman, and a quiet, but in any case let not the Puritan come until breakfast be done, for he is too precise: I must needs be merry, and if he be here, he will not let to reprove us, if we do butfortune to swear at unawares, so that I shall be afraid of him in every word I speak.

Here is but simple cheare this morning, because it is fasting-day.

M. Tertullus will eat no eggs today: will you M. Demetrius?

Yea by S. Mary, I am a protestant, for I love to eat flesh on the friday.

It is well said, but I pray you, think not ill of me M. Tertullus for it, for saint Paul hath taught us, that we that eat, should not indge them that eat not; for we being strong, must bear with the infirmities of the weak.

You promised yester-night to send for the Puritan, to talk further with him, I pray you do so, for I would have him taunted thorowlie.

By my troth I had forgotten him, mine host, call him.

Here is the Gentleman you willed me to call.

You are welcome, this Gentleman M. Demetrius telleth me, that you, and he, had great controversy on the wap yesterday, and he is very defirous that I might hear your reasons, and give my judgment of them for his satisfaction.

Sir, I said nothing to him but the truth out of the word of God, in condemning of usury, by which he said he lived, and shown him the horriblenesse of the sin, the inconveniences temporal that come of it in the commonwealth, and the judgments of God against the practices thereof.

Usury in deed in some sort is unlawful, but it seemeth that you dealt not with the man, as meaning to win him, but rather by such sharpness as might harden him.

Surely my desire was to win him, and therefore my purpose in reasoning was, to lay open the sin unto him, and the cause why I dealt some what roundly, was this: he confessed the scriptures that I alleged, but so cauelled and wrangled against the clear light therein contained, that it appeared unto me his purpose was, not only to abide an usurer, but also to justify it by the word of God.

Such chollerike fellows as you do mar all, for you cannot deal mildly, and so you trouble the conscience, and disquiet the mind of the weak.

His conscience must be troubled by lancing, before that ever his soul can be cured.

Then I perceive you like well of them that prech the law so much as they do.

Yea, or else should I not like of bringing men unto Christ, which can never be until they be humbled by the law, & made pure thereby to receue the gospel.

Do you not also like of them, preaching of predestination?

Yea, or else should I dislike of preaching the truth, for it is a part of God's revealed will.

So do not I in these dais, when there be so many weak ones, I think it to be a very break-neck of all religion.

I have heard of free-will men, that have said so, but I never heard man of learning affirm it, but one that was a Bishoppe in a Sermon, but his words were no less than blasphemy, and so are yours, and all they that say or think the same are guilty of no less sin.

Are you a Preacher and speak so of these reverend fathers, it may be your own ordinary to whom you are sworn to give canonical obedience.

It was the Bishop indeed, who usurped even the place where I dwelt, but I neuet sware him any obedience.

Well, we are gone from our matter.

And I pray you let us tarry a little longer from it, to consider one thing before we do return, which the talking of the Bishops bringeth into my head.

What is that?

Surely, that I think you are either a B. or else brought up in the school of a B. and would fain be one, for you do use yourself very like, as I have known them do.

Wherein?

In this, that whereas we reasoning of usury, wherein your conscience is clear within, you are contented for the favor of him, and for that you like not me, to maintain the same, and to disgrace the truth, because of the party that defendeth it, who is not according to your humor.

You may be ashamed to speak to of these holy fathers, I dare say, that none of them ever did so.

If mine ears had not heard it, mine eyes seen, & mine own person had not felt the experience thereof, I should have been of your mind, for I once liked them, and their very wicked dealings made me look into the lawfulness of their calling, which I see now to be mere Antichristian: but shall I tell you one example among manic?

I am willing to hear you, but I can never be brought to think so.

Yet will I tell it you, that you may think of it, I was accused unto the B. of such crimes as were most slanderous and false, where upon I desired him to send for mine accusers, and see how they could prove, that I (if I were con • icted) might be punished, or else they might have the reward that molesters of the preachers of the Gospel do deserve: he granted it me, and appointed a day, which being come, rather than I (whom he thought not to favor his authority) should have any help at his hands, he made me a sleeueles answer, and sent me away. Thus are Bishops coutented to be bauds unto all kind of sinners, rather than they will any way seem to further the ministry of those whom they favor not, and even thus do you: for your hatred unto my person, maketh you to stand with that monstrous usurer, but take hecde of it, for God will not be mocked, he seeth your dealing, and will judge you accordingly, howsoever you can pretend the contrary to the world.

As for mine own part, I pass not what you speak: but let me ask you one question concerning these holy fathers, and that is this, what reason is there that they should do any good in any respect unto any of you, seeing they know you to be professed foes unto their dignities.

Because they taking themselves to be the fathers of the Church, should have a regard to the good cause, and defend it without respect of persons.

No sir, I see no reason in that, for above all things, they must look to thenselves, without whose authority the Gospel would be trodden under foot: and therefore they may defend no cause nor person further than may stand with their own safety.

Suppose that were lawful, what hindrance is this to themselves, to see thē that be common and known drunkards, userers, adulterers, and profane persons punished, for that they are railers at me, for teaching the 'truth of religion, and reproving sharply their godless conversation.

Oh you are a simple man, it is great hindrance, for they can do nothing in defense of you, though it be in matters wherein you and they do agree, but it tendeth to the derogation of their own estimation, such is the contrariety betwixt your building and theirs.

By that means shall we be so wearied with adversaries, that we shall never have any hope to do good, but even to be constrained to give over the ministry.

I would I might see that once come to pass, we have labored for it hitherto, and never could attain unto it neither will the Church ever be in quiet until you all be turned out.

So thought the Sodomites, that they should never be well, so long as Lot was in their city; but when he was gone, fire from heaven consumed them: but I pray you tell me, if all were turned out, how should the people be taught, for it is evident, that none else (almost) maketh a conscience of his duty that way.

You think teaching would fail without you: No sir, teaching would be more regarded than it is.

Shew me how that can be.

We would have none to preach above once a month, and then should he do it profoundly, and confirm his matter out of the fathers, and human writers substantially, whereas you taking upon you to preach three or four times a week, must not only of necessity handle your matters very rawlie, but also breed loathsomeness in the people.

Surely my heart waxeth cold, and my flesh trembleth to hear you speak so monstrously: doth preaching consist in quoting of doctors, and alleging of Poets and Philosophers, in what part of his commission hath a minister war rant so to do? You find fault with our often preaching, because yourselves cannot so do, but if you would leave off your vain glory, in hunting after promotion, and your covetousness in adding murder unto theft, I mean living to living, and betake yourselves to study and prayer, bending your whole indeuor to the glory of God, and edifying of his people, you should see the blessing of God so abundantly upon you, that you should preach four times every week, with more fruit than you can do now four times every year, for while you be minded as you are, the Lord's judgment is upon your gifts, and his curse upon your labors, that you appear ridiculous even unto children. And whereas you say often preaching cloyeth the people, you show yourself plainly to have no feeling in the sweetness of the word of God: for it is so delightful unto the child of God, that the more he heareth and readeth it, the more desirous is he to proceed therein, it is the property of the ungodly, to whom the word is foolishness to be cloied with the same.

You shall not be my teacher, neither will I learn at your hands, I know well enough what I have to do.

I do not speak as a teacher unto you, but in brotherly love do admonish you, and if you refuse mine (or rather the council of the holy-ghost uttered by me) you do but as they do, whose condition you defend, I pray God forgive it you, and lay it neither to your nor their charge.

They are great motes in your eyes, they know better what to do than you can tell them, they see what is meet for the Church, being ancient grave men of long experience, better than a sort of young boys start up but yesterday.

Though some be but young, yet all are not so, for we have some more ancient than they have any, we have of all ages and degrees of Schools to compare with the best of them, and yet years, and human learning, and experience, must not carry away the matter, but the evidence of truth in the old & New Testament, and as for experience, they have none, for they were first brought up in the universities, then became Deans, and such iollie fellows, and now are made Mitred Lord's, so that they cannot tell what it is to train up a people to the gospel, & reclaim them from ignorance and sin, for they never stouped so low as to labor therein, but if they had even my experience, they would sing another song, for before I came into the harvest to work, I liked their hierarchy well enough, but when I laid it to my labors to further them, I found that they could not possibly stand together.

Did the gospel ever so flourishe in England as it doth now at this present?

No surely, God be praised for it, and increase it more & more, but to what end do you speak it?

To prove that the authority, and wise government of the Bishops hath had good success.

I thought so, but it is (if you would look into the matter with a single eye) clean contrary, for the good that hath been done, the Lord hath brought it to pass by these men whom you despise, and by that course which the Bishops were ever enemies unto.

How can you prove that I pray you, let me hear your reasons that move you to think so, for I am persuaded of the clean contrary.

It serveth not in this case what you are persuaded of, for a Bishoptick hath so blinded your eyes, & corrupted your judgment, that you like nothing but that which agreeth therewithal, but I will show you my reasons that maketh me of that judgment, and if you look equally into the matter, or ask any indifferent man, you shall see it to be so.

Shew me them, for I long to hear them, I am sure they be wise stuff.

First for the men, what congregatiō, what town or people is there in this land, that they have been in the reign of our sovereign Q. Elizabeth, converted to the gospel, that those men have not been the instruments to perform, whom the Bishops have continually persecuted, and for the courses that have been taken, and which God hath greatly blessed, which of them have not been overturned by the Bish. and the preachers put to silence, as soon as ever the gospel began to appear: On the other side, tell me if you be able, of any such effect of the ministry of a B. or bishoplie preacher, in any place of this land, though it hath been interrupted these twelve years, as you shall see in many places by the other sort, even in few months now and then, so that the matter is not only clear unto all that will weigh it in the balance of equity, but unto me, if I had no reason, it is an evident proof that they take the right way, whose labors the Lord doth so bless, and contrariwise, the curse of God is on the other, for their indirect dealing.

Thus you imagine because you please yourself in your own peevish ways, but tell me who are of your opinion: even a few Puritans like yourself.

Call us as you list, Christ was never the worse for that his enemies called him a seducer, & a deceiver of the people, but I am sure (all for the most parte that fear God) of every degree and calling, are of the same mind, saving those whom you by your sutleties have be witched.

You will have but a few then in this land that fear God, and so you will condemn the rest, which is the manner of all of you.

I condemn none, I wish that not a few, but all (if it were possible) did truly fear God, but I would have you learn of Christ with me, who may without disgrace be your teacher, to try the tree by the fruit, and seek me out that man which maketh a conscience of sin, and hath a care to live as a Christian, that is not of the same mind with us: on the other side mark what kind of men they be, that are the patrous and defenders of the Bishops, and you shall see them to be men that make no reckoning of sin, but have their ways fraughted with all impiety, if they be ttied with the touchstone of God's word.

Well then you confess yet, that the general sway goeth on our side, and so long as it is so, we care not.

I will easily grant it, and so have they from the beginning, and shall to the ending of the world (against all goodness) but I will tell you one thing even of thē, that few of them like you indeed.

How can these two stand together, many are with us, & few like of us, they be mere contrary?

I will tell you how, the Papist is on the Bi. side, because he can find shilter under them to hide his idolatry. The atheist is tooth and nail for them, because by them he enioieth carnal liberty, the man of most notorious life defendeth thē, bieause he can frō thē, redeem the corporal punishment of his sins by money, but none of these like of thē indeed; The first, because they keep the possession of the seats of their popish prelates, the other, because they are so greedy in their courts for money, that even every man crieth shame on them, who then do love them indeed, and stick to them only? these three hang-bies, that depend upon them, and live by them, as their chaplains and servants, the Cananits (I should say) the Canonists, and such ministers as either cannot, or will not, labor in their function, to convert souls unto God, so that they do stink in the nostrils both of God & man, especially in these three last years of their tyranny, that I do verily hope their sin is very near the height, and the Lord in mercy will ease us of them shortly.

You are a strange fellow, and please yourself with wonderful persuasions, but I pray you tell me, what maketh you say they are now more hated, seeing that in the last years, the best means have been used to establish the ministry in a consent and conformity unto them.

Let the means be as good as it will, I praise God for the success of it, howsoever the contrary was meant.

Why praise you God for it, I am sure you never liked of it?

The means indeed, I never liked, neither I think, did ever any reasonable man, but it being a britle wall, daubed with untempered mortar, had that success that such sandy foundations do deserve.

Why man, what success had it, I am sure the greatest part, yea even of your forwardest men subscribed: and those that did not, are not like to • arry in the Church very long.

Well, sooth up yourself in your own persuasion, and brag of the multitude of subscribers, if it were to do again, hundreds of them would never do it, because they were subtly circumvented and deceived (they meaning well, & tendering the peace of the Church) but (being now sorry for it) will stand in defense of the cause (I dare say for them) with their brethren, even unto death: So that the Bysh, have but their names written: And yet that if they would also, show the protestations and conditions, by which they were induced, and whereof the B. made allowance, it would plainly appear, that either they dealt wickedly to admit exceptions, if the articles were true, or more ungodly if they were not, ever to attempt any such matter.

Tell me now, what is that wherein you seem to rejoice, as though the issue of it fell on your side?

It is even this, that the Bish. straight dealing made men to look so narrowly into the cause, and to seek the reasons on both sides, for their own satisfaction, that there are at this day (I am fully persuaded) ten times as many of all degrees, that are fully persuaded of the matters of reformation as were before, so gracious God is unto his servants, to make even their enemies to do them good, and so tender is he over his own cause and glory, that he will make the very means intended to oppugn it, be notable ways to advance it.

I do not believe you, albeit I cannot control you in it, because I have not been in England of late, but what will come of it, if it be so?

Even the government of the church, by the rules of that discipline which Christ him self hath prescribed in his word, which I do persuade myself to see before it be long.

You would be examined before a justice & punished, for saying you hope to see an alteration, you cannot be the Q. friend that thus look for innovations in the state.

Examine me when you will, and punish me as God shall give you leave, I will be tried to be so far the Q. friend, as that I wish so well unto hir as unto mine own soul, and all that I say or desire, is not to invert anything in the state that is good, but to have the corruption thereof removed, and hir majesty more honored before God and men, in drawing more near unto hir God, in advancing the kingdom of his son more gloriously within hir dominions.

These be but feigned words, I do not believe that you speak as you think.

It is because you measure me by yourself, who indeed care neither for Qu. Country, nor your own soul, but for a Bishopric, but I thank God in Christ, my conscience beareth me witness that they be all very dear unto me.

Away thou railing hypocrite, I will talk with thee no longer, if I catch thee in London, I will make thee kiss the Clincke for this gear.

Indeed the Clincke, Gate-house, White-lion, & the fleet have been your only arguments whereby you have proved your causes these many years, but you shall prevail no longer, for your wickedness is made manifest unto all men, which God will shortly repay into your own bosoms seven fold, but pray you to God to give you repentance that those things happen not unto you.

Pray thou for thyself, and care not for me; I know well enough what I have to do without thy counsel, but it is your manner to teach all men.

Out upon him, what a fellow is this my Lord? I never heard such a one in my life.

I can tell you, he gesseth shrewdlie I per eiue, that our course which we have taken, and our intent in our actions have been descried by one means or other.

My lord, it was a thing observed in the Puritans at Geneva, and in France, while I was in Reims, that we could never invent any practice, for the furtherance of the Catholic religion, but they knew it often before we put it in execution, so that for the moste part, they prevent all our determinations.

Howsoever it be, I am wonderfully sorry that they seem so to triumph, and that our matters have no better success, it behooveth us to look about us, we will speed our selves to London, to take some way in hast, least it be too late: in the mean while, I pray you tell me, for you must be my counselor whe all is done, what way you think best to be taken.

I will do the best I can, I must first request one thing of you before I join to help you.

What is that? if it be not unreasonable you may assure yourself of it, for you know that I have never been strait laced against you nor any of your friends.

I doubt not of it, but how can I have it before I ask it of you? you know, that we received letters from England, that there were very hard laws made this last parliament against the Catholics: this is it therefore I must request, that you would use means that the rigor of them be not enforced, for you know that we have many, both in Court and country, that shall else be in great danger.

I am very well contented to do so, but what way shall I take to do it?

Surely, such a way as shall also make greatly for your own cause, and that is this, complain of the domestical, for the Puritan, and say, that they be worse than we, and that you shall never prevail against us, until first they be suppressed, and desire that we may be let alone for a time, and that all men would bend their forces against them.

This is excellent, I am very willing to do this, for it will help forward our own cause: now go on and tell me what is to be done further.

The first thing you must take in hand, must be the suppression of those preachers in London, and in other countries that be of most special note, for their forwardness against you, and you must do it very wisly: that is, you may not suppress them all at once, neither all of them in a long time, for you must take heed that the world do not conceive opinion of you, to be enemies to the Gospel, for then have you no way but to turn wholly unto us.

That will be a very good way, but how shall we have good matter against them, for their lives are thought to be very upright, and they have learned of late to be more pollitike than heretofore: for if they speak against anything established, they do it so cunningly, that advantage cannot be taken against them by law?

Never doubt of that, was there ever any man that went to beat a dog, but he could easily find out a staff to do it, you must in this case prefer your safety before your credit, or the estimation of any that belongeth unto you?

Yea, but show me some particulars, for I promise you, I see not how to do it.

You must be sure to let none preach at Paul's cross, but they of whom you have experience to like well of you, and you must give them instructions before hand, that they do inuey mightily against the reformation that our adversaries desire, and there will one or other of them speak against that, and so you may have sufficient advantage against them.

But these fellows be very sharp to find a fault: What and if the matter which our friend preacheth be false, & so the other take occasion to confute it?

Then must you urge him to defend that which he hath said, and so shall you have more occasion to entrap the adversary.

But in so doing, he whom we set on work shall lose his credit.

What and if he do, do you compare his credit with the weight of your Bishoprics? There is no comparison.

You say true, but what if it shall fall out, that the adversary be not blameworthy, neither in matter nor manner?

If he maintain the controversy it is sufficient cause to put him to silence though he have the better part, for you must maintain the peace of the Church.

But this is not all, for how shall we do for the court, that is the place, which above all we must fortify, or else we are gone?

Indeed there is great care to be had of it, and there be many ways to prevent us there, but we will do what we can in it. First you must take heed from time to time, what chaplains be put to the queen, seeing they are the teachers of the whole court, namely, that they be eloquent of tongue, and good companions, not too precise in their conversation.

It is very true, for they may else mar all, I have heard some of them speak dangerouslie, even before hir Majesty.

Therefore you must take heed, that they be such as can be contented with the course of the world, and then if they happen to speak home now and then, as it is a thing incident unto a rethoritian to be girding, the Courtiers will never regard his words, because thee see he walketh not according to that himself.

But I am afraid that the court shall in time come to knowledge by their preaching, aod then we are gone.

Fear not that, I read once in a Book made by one nf the Puritans, that if a man would have the blessing of God (as he termed it) upon his hearing, he must submit him self to an ordinary teacher, which thing I promise you is somewhat: for I see, that the greatest knowledge of their religion, as in those places, and men, that have that same ordinary teacher, and therefore keep them from anymore preaching, than one sunday in the month, and that by diverse men, and I warrant you that gap is stopped forever.

It is something that you say, & I will not forget to look unto it, but there is another thing which is greater than that, which is, how we may keep the Queen on our side, for I have often feared her, seeing (there is no question) but she is grounded in the foundation of religion.

Howe have you kept in with her all this while?

Marie thus, we have been very careful to take heed who be admitted to preach before her in the Lent: There was one Deering, that by our negligence preached, if he and such as he, had but continued the whole Lent, I am afraid, there would have been never a lord Bishop left in England before the next Lent had come again.

That I like very well, but that is not all, they will make books, and it cannot be but some of them do come to hir hands, how will you do if she like well of them, and the matter of Discipline in them?

I promise you I cannot tell, you must help us that dead lift, or else we are undone.

It is an easy matter to remedy, you must when you hear hir speak of such things, make hir believe that all is well, and that the drift of these men is not seen, for they would have no magistrare, and so would pull down Kings and Princes, and this will be sure to prevail, and make them to be esteemed the vilest men alive.

Howe can I tell hir that all is well, when I have been constrained to tell diverse Preachers, that have so sore urged me with the text, that I could wish things were amended, but the Q. will not at any hand?

Surely, you are a very simple man (my Lord) as though the Queen hears what you say unto them, or they, what you say to the Queen, you must still continue that course of excusing all things to hir, for she believeth that you are learned, and lay all the blame when you talk with them on hir: for you cannot overthrow them by Scripture, and so you shall not only keep the Q on your side, but also make the Preachers have a tolerable opinion of you, that you would have some things reformed if it lay in you.

That is a notable way, I will always observe and practice that, but there be many Noble men, Counsellers, great courtiers that seem to like well of our adversaries: how shall we do to retain them, or to bridle them that are gone from us?

That will be some what hard to do: yet the best counsel I can see meet to be taken, is this: you must show yourselves very affectious unto those that desire glory and estimation, you must wink at the vices of all of them whatsoever they be, and not reprove them, much less correct them, and those of them that be needy, you must have them to beg the Bishopprickes, Deanr • es, and such great places, & let them that shall have them pay well for them. So shall you not only have them beholding unto you for a benefit, but keep them still on your side, in hope to have the like bootie another time.

This is very well, and shall be always observed: but there is yet another thing I heard of late, that there be very many Gentlemen and Gentlewomen in the Court that like us not, and it hath often times been, that Kings and Princes have been induced by information of mean men, to do that which great Counselors could not be at into their heads, how shall we do to stay the mischief that may come of these?

Easilie, you must consider that they be of two sortes, either they be such as be highly in favor, or they be common courtiers: if they be of the former sort, you must when you have opportunity to speak to hir, tell hir, that she must take heed of such, and such persons: for though they be very wise and discreet, because you must not dislike any that she liketh, yet are they (being of a good nature) deceived, by the fair pretence of Puritans, & for them, you must say they do great harm, by reason of their countenance in the court, with favoring the Puritans, so that it shall come to pass, by these informations, that the Queen shall not only reject their speeches (if they use any against you) but also take them up roundly, that they shall not dare to speak anymore.

This pleaseth me at the very heart, but how shall we do to be sure in the counsel table, for they are wise, and many of them like us but from the teeth outward, and we have received many a foil there?

That is even the hardest of all: I know not in the whole world any way but one.

Tell me that one, for if once I know it, we will say well to it but we will bring it to pass.

This is it: in King Edward's days, there were Bish. of the counsel: now if you could get, though it were but one to be a counselor, then might he very well, whensoever any matter of complaint came, tell the lords it pertained to ecclesiastical jurisdiction, and he & his brethren would hear it at large: so might he stop their mouths quickelie, and then he might for fashions sake hear the cause, but send the plaintifes away with a flea in their ear. And thus very quickly would all complaints to the counsel cease.

Oh moste notable device, all our friends in England shall fail us, but we will have this take place: there is yet another thing that must be helped, and that is the universities, for they have great privileges, and Puritans start up there every day.

So there will do some, do what you can, unless you have a fire and a fagot, which weapon of ours, you only lack, and none but it: the best course that I know to be taken is this, let no College choose his own head, but let him have a Mandamus, procured from the Queen, and see that he be such a one, as hath been a non resident before, and let him have diverse livings: and so that will draw with it formality. Let him be the Q. chaplain, or at the least brought now and then to preach in the Lent, and that will so set him a gog for a Bishopric, that you shall be sure he will suppress your adversaries as they arise, and let the heads of the houses be admonished from time to time, that they choose none to be fellows that be Puritans, but such as like the estate, and for the more assurance, let them be urged to subscribe, yea to swear to your authority, before they be admitted.

Shall we go by Cambridge, & see this put in execution as we go?

Nay soft, be sure of the court, before you enterprise any other where, least you mar all.

You say very well, now how shall we do for the parsons and vickars, of the country that like us not?

I promise you those that be in already, will say hard unto you, and those that be to come also, if they will subscribe to the articles, so far as they concern faith and sacraments, the statute law favors them too much.

But have we no help by the cannon law?

Yes, there is help enough in the cannon law, if they will take it: but I will tell you one thing in your ear, which I would not for a thousand pounds were known abroad, and that is this: if the statute made in the 28. of H. oct. cap. 19 and the reviving of it in the 1. of Elizabeth cap. 1. were thorowlie sifted, I am afraid, not any cannon law would be found good law in England, and so what would become of you, and your authority? But I know to whom I do speak it.

What shall we do then?

You must set a good face upon the matter, and pretend law, both statute, and cannon, especially cannon, because they know not that they deprive them of their livings, which if you (though they know you do them wrong) could remedy it by law, yet are not their purses so well filled as yours, and so lack of living will make them to yield at length, as we see it hath done many.

But may we not well suppress them, for not using the surplice, and book of common prayer in all points?

I tell you there is no law in England to hurt them, for anything that they have done concerning the surplice, the judges having been set on by you, and us, have indicted them for it, but it is more than they can warrant by law, and as for the book it is clear, that the strict keeping of it was meant against us, but we thank you for turning the edge to them from us. Sumnaries must be your best help in this case, and look that you practice it continually.

This will do very well, how shall we do to keep the Ministry from too much knowledge, for that must be done, though we pretend the contrary?

Indeed it is a thing that you must look narrowly unto, and therefore take heed above all things, that the exercises of prophesy come not up again, for you know what harm they did unto you in every place where they were kept, and especially where men were moderators therein, that had been beyond the seas, to see the practice of thē at Geneva, and you must beware of the exercises that ministers have at their meetings: for you know, that in Leicester-shire, they furthered knowledge greatly.

But how shall we do with this, the exercise of prophesy is expressly set down in the 14. Coloss. 1. to the Cor. and it is known, that they whom you and we set on work to get it forbidden, confessed since that they knew it not, but took it to be foretelling of things to come, and not expounding of the scriptures.

You must answer it as you do the rest of their reformatiō, the particulars where of are expressed in the New Testament: namely, that they were things only for the time, and for them that helped you, what if they conf • ssed their ignorance, you must still excuse their exercises to be unlawful assemblies, and • onuenticles to breed sects and schisms, and your authority will be are you out in all this and more too.

But what shall we do to make the world believe we would have the ministry learned?

Make them first Ministers, and set them to school, enioining them to g • t some part of M. Nowels Catechism, or of Bullingers Decades by heart, and so you shall seem to desire a learned ministry, as well as these reformers.

We will not fail to put this also in practice, is there anymore that you know, that may serve our turns, for the further establishment of our dignities?

No nothing of any great weight, but it may be referred to someone of these points, but the particulars of every branch are many, which your own wisdom may easily look unto.

Then let us go, for I long until I do set these things abroach.

Yet I pray you remember to do something for us poor Catholics, seeing you stand by our help especially.

Great reason we should do so, or else were we ungrateful creatures, but you must devise what must be done.

You know that some of us be in prison, and others abroad, for those that are restrained, I pray you that they may have their liberty of the prison, and their friends to come to them, and when any of them come before you, that you would deal fauourablie with them.

Your request is very reasonable, for the first you shall see that your friends shall have the best chambers in every prison, and when any Puritan falleth into our hands, you shall see him have the most stinking place that can be found. Now when any of you, yea if you yourself come before us, you must be content to let us rail on you, & cal you traitor, & threaten you grievously, but you shall be sure you shall sustain small harm, if you receive any, you must impute it to the times and not to us.

I thank your lordship, let us now be going, for we have tarried too long in our lodging this morning.

He never tarrieth too long that is well employed, as we have been, it was the best morning that ever I spent.

How now mine host, what say you to these iollie fellows, had not they notable talk?

Yes sir, I have learned of them, that that will do me good I hope.

What is that?

I have learned howe to course our Preacher, and he shall be sure of it, and though it cost me the price of a tun of wine.

Why, what doth he that deserveth coursing?

What? He setteth men together by the ears, the town was never at quiet since he came, he teacheth such doctrine as some do like, and some not, and so they fall at variance.

I pray you tell me some particulars of the worst of all.

This for one: our town standeth on vittelling, because it is a thorough-fare, and he preacheth against good fellowship (which he calleth drunkenness) and against playing at cards and tables, wherein if he might have his will, I and my neighbors might go on begging within one twelve-months, and he hath so prevailed, that I take not so much by four pounds in a week, as I was wont to do: yea I have had ten shillings of one man in a week for drink only, that will now scarce spend three, but I will look unto him.

Well mine host, deceive not yourself, I perceive that you and I are in a wrong box, you are an enemy to the Preacher, because he speaketh against your unlawful gain, and so was I yesterday with him that took the same course to amend me: and I thought he had spoken falsely, because he was a Puritan: and when I came to hear my matter debated, the bishop disallowed my course, and yet took my part. And why? Because I might defend him in his unlawful calling: But I see their ingling well enough, and if the man with whom I was so offended be not gone, I will talk further with him, for I perceive that he meant better unto me than they did.

I perceive we shall have a Puritan of you, if you would so fain speak with him, he is but new gone out at the gate, you may ride after him: but as for our Preacher, I will in hand with him, because I cannot tell howe I shall else gain and maintain myself as heretofore I have done.