Sermon 8 February 1588

D. BANCROFTS TEXT. 1. John 4.1. Dearely beloved, believe not every spirit, b •• •• ie the spirits, whether they be of God: For many false Prophets are gone out into the world

ANSWERE.

I T hath been the ancient custom of Satan and his instruments in all ages, to abuse the holy word, and name of God, as a ground unto all their ungodly proceedings against the Lord and his Saints: that there by, they might have some color of their persecutions, and wicked attempts against the truth and professors thereof. That I be not tedious in a matter too apparent, hence it is, that in all the condemnations of the holy Martyrs of Christ, by that Roman Tyrant: We see all their processes to begin in the name of God, & the accusasions laid to the charge of the Saints to be so boulstred out with the testimonies of holy Scripture, as though the spirit of God had none to condemn of heresy, schism, sedition and treason, save only the members and messengers of Christ Jesus. And therefore M. Bancroft, if you begin with Scripture, and as I may say, in the name of God, begin to speak against God, against his blessed verity and people you do but your kind, in treading the steppes of your predecessors: You have your forefathers, the Scribes and Pharisees, that Antichristian beast of Rome, his Cardinals, Bishops, Legates inquisitors and all others, that have coloured their garments, with the blood of the Lord's chosen, for your presidents and examples. The delusion of your course could not be so great, if you did show yourself in your colors. Your Sermon declareth that your affection serveth you, rather to fight against the truth with fire and fagot, then by sober writing, or speaking, to stand in the defense of your cause.

Well, you deal against false Prophets, Scismatiques, giddy spirits, disturbers of the church, enemies to her Majesty's estate and prerogative. And we on the other side, that favor reformation, do from the bottom of our hearts entreat and beseech the eternal God, speedily to convert and turn all such, if they be his, or else with speed to overthrow them in his fierce wrath. And as for our selves in particular, if we, who in sincerity seek the reformation of the Church of England; be either false Prophets; Scismatiques, giddy spirits, disturbers of the Church, enemies unto her Majesty's estate or person, we do without exception, entreat the Lord in his fiery wrath and anger, even this hour, to make us visible monuments, of his great indignatiō, both in this life, and in the day of the Lord Jesus, & root the memory of us and ours, out of the Church and kingdom of England forever: that our most dear Sovereign Queen Elizabeth, may continue and end her days, not only in the quietness of her own conscience, but also in the conjunction, quietness, and union of the hearts of all her Subjects and people. And we offer, not only to clear our selves, by these our voluntary protestations, made in the name and presence of the great God of heaven and erth, but even by showing the goodness of our cause according unto the word, and answering whatsoever the adversary bringeth against us. And what can we do more? Let us then M. Bancroft see what you can say of us, or our cause Here I omit, whatsoever in your whole Sermon is impertinent unto us, against whom you especially deal, and come to the eight page thereof, where at the first meeting, you do very brotherly salute us, by the names of false Prophets, though of your courtesy, your care not much if you omit the name.

D. BANCROFT. Pag. 8. line. 10. Lastly, they are false Prophets, who do pervert the meaning of the Scriptures, for the maintenance and defense of any false doctrine, schism, of heresy. Herof you know, I might give you many examples. I pray you bear with me if I set down, one as strange in my opinion, as any to be found in a matter of no great importance. The name of false prophets, I am content in diverse respects to suppress. The matter it self, which I mean, standeth in this sort. There are many now a days who do affirm, that when Christ used these words: DTC ECCLESIAE. He meant hereby to establish in the Church forever, the same plot and form of Ecclesiastical Gouernement to be en • ct in every parish which Moses by 〈…〉 counsel, appointed in mount Sinai: and which afterward; the •• was did imitate in their particular Sinagogues.

ANSWERE.

They 〈…〉 read your Sermon, will bear you witness, that you are sufficiently able, to afford your auditors an example of a false teacher: And yet it were hard, to account all those to be false Prophets (without exception) who pervert the meaning of the word, to the maintenance of every point of false doctrine. For we know, that many of the true Ministers of God, have in the error of their judgment, held some points of unsound doctrine, and perverted the meaning of the holy scripture for the maintenance of the same. To speak nothing of Cyprian, Chrysostom, Jerome, Augustme, and especially, Origen and Barnard who have had everyone of them their blemishes, and wrested the word for the defense thereof: that worthy man of God, M. Luther you know, hath delivered vniustifiable and false doctrine, concerning the manner of receiving of the thing signified, to wit Christ Jesus, in the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper: and as it may be truly said, he hath perverted many places of the word, for the maintenance of this his error, yet M. Bancroft, I think you will not inrolle him in the catalogue of false Prophets: Wherefore, if I denied the ground and principle of your reason, and sent you again unto your note book, for a better description of a false Prophet, I should do nothing contrary unto equity and reason. But I mean not to stand with you in a manner of so small moment: seeing, especially you do by this your description, teach the reader, what account he is to make of you, and your brethren of the same crewe, who daily in your Sermons and writings, do wrest, pervert, and abuse the sacred word of God, for the maintenance of most false and pernicious doctrine, whereof it may be, something shall be spoken hereafter.

But I pray you, who are they that expound the words of our savior Christ. Mat. 18. Dic ecclesiae: Tell the Church, to be referred to the Ecclesiastical government, which Moses by Iethroes counsel appointed in mount Sinai? you say they are many, why then did you not name one of them, or quote the writings of someone of them? Even indeed, because you are not able to father this absurdity upon none of those, whom you would gladly bear the world in hand to be the maintainers thereof. And here the reader is to be advertised, that among many shifts, which you have to obscure the truth, delude your readers and auditors, and to color your slanderous untruths, there is one whereof you make a special use, and that is to charge us with the defense of such points as we never held: Thinking it sufficient for you to say, that there are many now a days who affirm, that when our Savior Christ, &c. Whereas the error, as you have set it down, is so absurd and senseless, and smelleth of such gross ignorance, as I assure myself, that none who have written in the cause of reformation since the beginning of her majesties reign, unto this hour, could be so groslye overseen, as to conceive, much less hold and maintain any such thing as you have uttered. For first, the officers appointed. Num. 11. (and I beseech the reader to mark) were not ordained at mount Sinai, as you have set down, but (as the holy Ghost expressly noteth) at Kibroth Hataauah, which was 3. days journey from mount Sinai: compare Numb. 10.33. with Numb. 11 24.34 and 33.16. and Deut. 1.1. And therefore it is very absurd, to avouch that the 70. Elders, mentioned Num. 11. were ordained at mount Sinai: and it is no less false to give our, that these were the officers appointed by Moses at y ^e counsel of Jethro. For Iethroes advise was put in execution, before the erecting of the Tabernacle, even in the first year of their departure out of Egypt. The ordinance of the 70. elders, taken in hand after the setting up of the Tabernaele, & after the 20. day of the 2. month of the 2. year. Again, the governors in Kibroth-Hataauah were but 70. or at the most 72. in number: the other ordained by the counsel of Jethro, being governors of 1000. governors of 100. governors of 50. & governors of 10. must needs exceed that number by many degrees. Lastly, (which is your 3. slanderous absurdity) who told you that the government ordained in the 11. of Numbers, was Ecclesiastical. The very place it self, and all the circumstances thereof do prove it to be civil: And so our men that have written of this argument would have taught you, if you had sought the truth of the cause out of their writings. The holy story it self, maketh the matter to be out of controversy, which is this in effect. Numb. 11. There grew an universal murmuring among the people, because they had not flesh to eat. The authority of the rulers over thousands, rulers of hundreds, &c. ordained by the advise of Jethro, reached not beyond the number allotted unto thē: So that the defection of the people being general, (and it may be, many of their rulers joined with them) they would not have an answer, nor be pacified by the inferior officers, but they come to Moses the chief governor, & would have him to give thē flesh: Moses being sore vexed with the outcries against him, expostulateth with the Lord, thinking himself to be hardly dealt with, that there was none appointed for y ^e restraining of the general •••• itude, but he himself alone: Herupon the Lord commanded him to gather 70. of the Elders of Israel, such (saith the text) as he knew, to be governors of the people, & the Lord would appoint thē as assistants with him, to take the general charge of the people, y ^t when the multitude would not be ruled by their inferior officers, as the rulers of 1000. &c. these 70. elders should be armed by the Lord, with authority and gifts, to bear the burden with him, and it was peformed accordingly.

Now M. Bancroft, for whose assistance were these Elders appointed? the word expressly setteth down, that they were to assist Moses: and therefore the offices whereunto they were ordained were civil; whereas if they had been ecclesiastical, they should have been appointed helpers unto Aaron. & not unto Moses. For Moses at this time was no more to intermeddle with the priesthood, because Aaron & his sons, were now consecrated thereunto, & the tribe of Levi allotted to assist Aaron, even to take y ^e charge with him of the whole congregation, in respect of the tabernacle The last time y ^t ever Moses dealt in the office of the priesthood, was at the consecration of Aaron & his sons, but frō the time that Aaron was receued in to y ^e office, Moses never meddled with it anymore. So the cause is to clear, y ^t they who were appointed to assist Moses, & not Aaron, w •• civil & ecclesiastical rulers. Where it is said, than the 70. Elders prophisied, it can no more prove them to belong to the government of the church, then the like gift bestowed upon Saul, can make him a church-officer.

Seeing then M. Bancroft, the platform of Government, whereof you speak, was neither appointed at mount Siuai, nor by the counsel of Jethro, nor yet ordained for the regiment of the Church, but for the use of the civil state, and seeing you can father this exposition upon none of these, whom afterward you call the clergy and layitie factions, the consequent is, that your own ignorance in the cause of Christ's government which you oppugn, hath coined us this most unlearned and senseless exposition: wherein you do no more I grant, then that which is the common custom of all your fellows: And that is, to imagine that these, who by the goodness of God are seen in this cause, can bring no better reasons for the defense of the same, then you whose ignorance therein is manifest and ridiculous unto unto all men. And indeed for your part M. Bancroft, if you had any modesty in you, & shame of the world, (to omit the conscience and sound fear of God, which ought to be in a Minister of the Gospel as you would be accounted) you would give yourself little rest, until either you had named us some of these very many, who affirm as you have set down, or make open confession of your great ignorance in that cause, whereunto you have been always so great an enemy. The reader may well know, that you have set down these things, rather of mere ignorance, then of single malice only, because otherwise, you that are so ready to take any advantage against your adversaries, and their arguments, would have been glad to have found so many breaches in one poor reason of theirs: And though you would never so fain avoid this blot of your insufficiency, yet your own words following do witness, that you have spoken of the cause, even according unto the deep knowledge that you have thereof, where you say that the Jews in their particular Sinagogues, did imitate this government ordained by Moses in mount Sinai at the counsel of Jethro: As though, every particular Synagogue of the Jews could afford 70. elders that were known to be the governors of the people, to attend upon the regiment of the Church? It appears that you are well seen, either in the civil or Ecclesiastical polity of the Jews, which appoint these elders unto their particular Sinagogs. You might as well say, that we in England in the government of our particular parishes, by Church-wardens and Side-men, do resemble the majesty that is in the assembly of Star chamber or at the Counsel table, as that the Jews in their particular Sinagogues, did imitate the government of the 70. Elders: who being joined in authority with Moses, are manifested to be the highest civil officers, that were in all the congregation of Israel, and both before and after the captiu • ty, they are said by the learned, to have the highest authority in the Common-wealth of the Jews, next unto the supreme Magistrate. If you had been but meanly seen in Josephus (to omit other writers) you could not have been ignorant of this point. The name Elder it may be, is that deceives you, thinking belike, that wheresoever we read of any called Elders in the Scriptures, we presently take the place, as making for the Eldership under the Gospel. We think far otherwise then so, because we find the Governors of the Common wealth, as well as the rulers of the Church; to be called Elders by the spirit of God.

Whatsoever then you say of false Prophets, (as you speak much of them in your Sermons) the reader seeth, that at your first assault of the cause of Christ's Gouernement, you have manifested yourself to be of their number, that speak evil of the things they know not, which the holy Ghost maketh to be a mark of these false teachers, by whom the way of truth in the latter ages, should be evil spoken of.

But here you will say, that we ground something for the proof of the Eldershippe upon the place of Math. 18. Tell the Church, &c. and that we bring in the Jewish Synagogue for some purpose in this question. True it is, we do so: And because you neither know, as it appeareth, what we infer, nor wear able to answer them, being made known unto you therefore you did wisely to set down in our name, your own absurdities, which of themselves, without any confuter, desire for shame to be buried under the earth. That which we affirm is this. And we appeal unto the conscience of the reader, whether we speak the truth or not. First we prove that the offices of Pastors, Doctors, Elders, &c. are perpetually to continue in the Church, because the Lord hath appointed them to be members thereof, Romans 12.6.7.8. And because Saint Paul writing unto Timothy, maketh the retaining of them in the Church of Christ, not arbitrary matters, left to the discretion of the Church, but a commandment which is to be kept inviolable, until the appearing of the Lord Jesus.

Secondly, we affirm that our Savior Christ, did establish (Matthew 18. these words, Tell the Church) this Government of his house by the offices of Pastors, Doctors and Elders: In that he commandeth us, when a brother doth not profit by the degrees of private admonition which he there mentioneth, that we should acquaint the Church with his offend: Tell the Church saith he. By the Church in this place, we say, that either the whole multitude must be meant, or someone man, as the Bishoppe, Chancellor, &c. or else the Elders joined together, with the Pastor and Doctrour if there be any. Now you will not say, that a man should go and seek remedy at the whole multitude when his brother offendeth him. On the other-side, if you say, y ^t by the Church in this place, is meant someone man in the Church, and so go tell the Church; should be, go tell one man in the Church, as the Bishoppe or Chancellor: The exposition is diverse ways proved to be false. Because the degrees of proceedings, which our Savior. Christ setteth down, doth overthrow it. For we are commanded from a private reproof of our brother between us and him, to rise unto an admonition before one or two witnesses, and so from two or three, not to come back again, to make his fault known before one witness, as the Bishop or Chancelor, but before many, viz. the Church governors, as before is set down. And in this speech tell the assembly of Church, we say that our savior Christ, pointing out by the spirit of prophesy, the government of the eldership under the gospel, doth allude unto the form of the Jews, government in their Sinagogues, unto whom whosoever gave not ear, was accounted as an heathen or a publicane.

This M. Bancroft, is the sum of that which we affirm out of Math. 18. when you can bring anything against this exposition of the place, you shall be answered by the assistance of God: And it shall appear, whensoever you or yours, dare abide the public trial of your cause, that there are not only many that affirm this but also many that will prove this to be most true. In the mean time, we refer the matter unto the conscience of the reader, whether you and your upholders, in expounding tell the church, to be, complain to the Bishop or chancelour, that is, tell one man in the Church, or we which interpret the same to be, tell the governors of the Church: to wit, the Pastor, Doctor, and Elders joined together, being not one but many, do pervert the meaning of the scripture: and as his judgment in these things shall be convinced, so let him account of you and us accordingly.

D. BANCROFT page 9. They had say these men in their sinagogues, the • priests, we must have in every parish our pastors, they their Levite, we our Doctors, they their rulers of their sinagogues, we our Elders, they their leuittical treasurers, we our Deacons.

ANSWERE.

And what can you say against this saying of theirs? if it be false, why do you not confute it? your ability indeed to disprove the afternoon you show in that you leave it as you found it. And that the reader may perceive what madness it were, for you to go about to weaken any part hereof, I will briefly note out the places, wherein these offices are mentioned both in the old and new testament.

First then for the offices of Priests and Levites, Numb. 16 9.10, and Deut. 33.9.10. and there you shall see the Priests and Levites so distinguished, as although they were both of them to teach Jacob the judgments, and Israel the law, yet was the Prieste alone to put incense before the face of the Lord: Now under the New Testament, answerable unto the Prieste and Levite: there is the Pastor and the Doctor, and both of them appointed for the gathering together of the Saints, by the work of the ministry, yet both of them distinguished in their special subjects. The one of them to attend [ ] upon the gift of teaching, the other upon exhortation, the one of thē to be in an especial fort, [ ] endued with the word of knowledge, the other with the word of wisdom. Concerning those, who in the new [ ] testament are called the rulers of the Synagogue, the spirit of God in the old, nameth them [ ] the Princes or the chief of the families: who although they were not of the tribe of Levi, yet were they appointed for the cause and judgments of the Lord, as well as the Priests and Levites themselves. In like manner, there are Elders in the new Testament, bearing a distinct office from the Pastor and the doctor, and yet appointed to rule & oversee the house of God by virtue of their own proper function. Lastly, as under the law, we find Church treasures, unto whose custody, the dedicate things belonging to the sacrifices, and the maintenance of the Levites were committed: So in the kingdom of Christ under the new covenant, are Deacons appointed: whose office is neither to medle with the word and Sacraments, nor yet with the government of the house of God, but only to attend upon the goods of the Church, and the right distribution of them to the use of the poor, &c. I omit here, that as the Gebonites and the Nethinimes, were employed about the inferior and baser offices of the temple and tabernacle, so the holy ghost hath appointed Church servants and widows, to the same purpose under the Gospel. Here by good reads thou seest, that not only we, but the holy ghost also saith, those things concerning the regiment of the Church, hath under the new and old Testament, which Master Bancroft is not able to: gain say with any color of truth. And yet it were, season that either his answer, or his consent should: be had.

M. BANCROFT. This form of government, they cal the tabernacle, which God hath appointed, the glory of God, and of his son Jesus Christ, the presence of God the place which he hath chosen to put hi • name there, the court of the Lord, and the shining forth of God's glory.

ANSWERE.

Although I deny not, but the true government of the Church by the Eldershippe, might have the most of these titles truly attributed unto it, wherewith the visible Church under the New Testament is adorned: yet the most of those names which you set down, being something insolent and strange, I make no doubt, but all modest writers would abstain from them: Especially, knowing how subject this cause in our time is, unto the godless cavils of such, as care not what they write to the disgrace thereof. And because you have set them down without any authority: for mine own part, I can no otherwise think of them, then of the brood of your own slanderous spirit, whereunto you can find no covert under the wings of your adversaries, whē you have produced your witnesses, to prove them none of yours, I will in this point alter mine opinion, and it stands you upon to clear yourself. That which followeth in your Sermon, doeth manifest both your ignorance in the cause, and also that you have so acquainted your tongue and pen with untruths, that you are a stranger unto the words of verity and uprightness: your words are these.

D. BANCROFT page 6. line 13. Where this ecclesiastical Synod is not erected, they say God's ordinance is not performed: the office of Christ as he is a King, is not acknoledged: in effect, without this government, we can never attain to a right and true feeling, of Christian religion, but are to be reckoned among those, who say of Christ, we will not have this man to reign over us.

ANSWERE.

As though we desire ecclesiastical Synods, to be erected in every congregation, and parish, or that we make no difference, between a Synod, which is a meeting of all the ministers, and elders, if occasion should require, (or more properly of some choice ministers and elders) in a whole province, or more general, and the Eldershippe: which containeth the governors, to wit the Pastors Doctors and elders of one only congregation. The reader may se what a meet man you are to be an inueigher against the eldership, whereas you know not what it meaneth, and whether a Synod and an Eldership be all one or not.

Where this form of ecclesiastical government is not erected, there indeed we say, that God's ordinance concerning the regiment of his church is not wholly observed: but that his whole ordinance is wanting, where there is a faithful teacher we never as yet affirmed. And therefore if by your general speech (that we say God's ordinance is not performed &c.) you mean that we deny any part thereof, to be where the government by the Eldership is not established, you do but follow your own humor, that is bear false witness against the truth, and those that profess the same.

The office of Christ as he is a King, is both to teach and to govern his church by his own laws. Our Bishops do profess them selves to rob the church of the scepter of government, which they have tyranuously wrested to them selves, & therefore we truly say, that they suffer Christ to have but half a kingdom at the most, under their jurisdiction, and that we fear full sore against their wills: we grant indeed, that many congregations in the land, do enjoy, Christ Jesus reigning among them, by the scepter of his word, and we do day and night according unto our weak measure of faith, heartily thank our God for this blessing, and beseech him from the bottom of our hearts, to show mercy unto our sovereign Queen Elizabeth, under whose peaceable government, we are partakers of so inestimable a treasure. Yet notwithstanding; it is too well known, what a stranger, the savior of mankind is to the most part within our lande, because the voice of his gospel is never effectually heard among them: and so we may truly say, that the office of Christ as he is a king, is no wise acknoledged under y ^e jurisdiction of our Bishops in many places of our land. Again, we do so thank the Lord for the enjoying of his Gospel preached, as we cease not, humbly to entreat his majesty, that leeing he hath vouchsafed us the lauour to be of his household, it would also please him, that we may be ruled by the offices and laws of his own house. For what hath the Temple of God to do with the government and statutes of the kingdom of Antichrist? And we do protest that we will give him no rest, until he hath vouchsaved to hear our supplications even in this point. And yet in the mean time, we do acknowledge his office as he is a king: and do profess our selves without this Gouernement which we labor for; to have attained unto some right and true feeling of Christian religion; though not to such a measure, as we hope to reach unto, whensoever the Lord shall grant unto us the use of his holy ordinance, which we so earnestly desire. This may serve M. Bancroft for a sufficient confutation of your loose and unbridled tongue; which are not ashamed to publish that without this government we hold, that men can never attain unto a right and true feeling of religion: we have evermore affirmed the contrary, & are able to prove the contrary.

For we hold that those 3000. souls which in one day were added unto the Church at Jerusalem, before the Eldership was established among the disciples, had a true feeling of religion: we say the same of the Church of Creta, even before ever Titus ordained elders in every city among them. The like judgment we have of the church of England, at this day. But as the spirit of God recordeth, that notwithstanding these Churches of Jerusalem and Crete, had a true feeling of Christ, yet it behooved them to submit themselves, according unto God's ordinance, unto the government of the Eldership, which [ ] they enjoyed: So say we of our selves in England, and of all other Churches in our case, that although our knowledge and feeling were never so great, (as alas it is but too too slender) yet are we to be built further and further, and wrought upon by all the holy ordinances of God, least we be deprived of that inheritance which is to be had among them that are sanctified. And indeed we hold, it is to be feared, of all those who refuse to stoop unto the Lord in this point of their obedience, that they have not as yet felt a right, what true religion meaneth. Therefore, we warn them to enter into their own souls, and examine what true sense they have of the glory of God, and his favor towards them. And as for the most of them, that are enemies unto this government of Christ Jesus, it were to be wished, both in regard of the Church, and common wealth, that their very lives and conversations, did not show them, to be either mere Atheists or carnal and profane men, that only content themselves to have godliness in their months, though their hearts have denied the power thereof, and are so far from the true feeling of Christian religion, as D. Bancroft is from true and upright dealing, who saith, that we account all those, amongst whom this Ecclesiastical Sinode (as he calleth it) is not erected, to say of our savior Christ, we will not have this man to reign over us. The which speech, how untrue it is, may appear by that which is already spoken. As for the conclusion, which in the latter ende of this page he alledgeth out of the Demonstration of Discipline, I wish with all my heart, if it please the Lord, that neither he nor any other enemies of the cause, may feel the weight thereof.

Whereas in this place, you would seem to make the Demonstration of discipline, to be the fountain whence you have derived the most of the things hitherto discussed, the reader is to make no other account of that speech of yours, then to mark it up, upon the score of your untruths: for you shall find no such matter in that book.

D. BANCROFT page 10. sect. 2. & 3. There was never ancient father (as I think) since the Apostles time, that did thus expound the place, Mat. 18. Besides there hath been a diverse government from this, used in the Church ever since the Apostles time, and these men do confess, that this government long before the counsel of Nice began greatly to decay and that since the said counsel, it was never heard of in the world, until these their times.

ANSWERE.

They must needs be childish, and absurd fathers, that should expound the place, according unto your interpretation. The reader hath seen, that you have alleged your own comment and not ours. Neither do we run unto fathers when we would try the truth, but unto the scriptures themselves. And yet we thankfully acknoweledg the helps, which their labors have affoarded unto us, but so as we held it a main point of popery to hold that a place is not well interpreted, because no such exposition can be found in the writings of the ancients. Besides, we account your breast for no library, wherein all the interpretations of the fathers upon this place may be seen. Chrysostom (if that were any thing unto the truth) doth expound tell the church, to be, tell the governors of the Church, which comprehendeth in a manner all that we affirm.

We know Di •• rephes to have been in the church, even in the Apostles times, and we are assured he could never be gotten out of it, since the first hour that he set footing therein. And therefore we cannot greatly marvel, though even in their time, there had been a diverse government, from this of the lords appointment, which we labor for. For even in the Apostles time, the mistery of iniquity began to work. But for all this, we would have you prove your bold assertion, that ever since the Apostles time, there hath been a diverse government from this, and when you have done, you must understand, that the question between us is not so much, de facto, as de jure, not so much whether there was a diverse government &c. as whether that diverse government was lawful or not.

We must needs confess indeed, that not only this government of the Church, but also many other points of greatest weight in religion, fell to decay long before the counsel of Nice: But that M. Carthwright, or any man else of judgment hath affirmed, that this government was never heard of, since the said counsel, until these our times, it is an impudent untruth. You quote T. C. on the margent, but neither name the page, nor the book where he should affirm this which you would seem to publish under his name,. The reader is to mark this is another of shift, which is so much the more shamles, as you ground your next speech upon it, as upon a matter granted you without any further question.

D. BANCROFT page 10. & 11. A very strange matter if it were true, that Christ should erect a form of government to continue until his coming, and that the same should never be once put in practice, for the space of 1500. years, or at the least (to take them at their best) that the government & kingdom of Christ should then be overthrown, when the divinity of his person the honor of his kingly authors, &c. was established at the counsel of Nice.

ANSWERE.

And is it not also a strange case, that you will erect a building of your own stuff, and workmanship, and then cal your auditors, to gaze and wonder at the absurd deformity of it. Why? there are non but yourself, and such as you are, that affirm this government to have wanted execution, for the space of 1500. years. Neither do we hold or think the government and kingdom of Christ, to be overthrown at the time of the counsel of Nice. And you have in this point, given yourself the shameful lie, in the 100. page of your Sermon, where you allege that M. Cartwright doth affirm this eldership to have been most flourishing under Constantine the Emperor, by whom the Nicene council was called. I refer the reader unto the place, and & wish you, though you cannot be gotten to leave forging of untruths against us, yet for your own credit sake, not to forget the chief ma • ime of your profession: which is, that it behooveth a lying tongue to be joined with a good memory.

We do not say, that the government and kingdom of Christ is wholly overthrown, where the Eldership is wanting, and therefore, your speech tending that way, doth rather point out the essential all quality of your nature, then any conclusion of ours.

And admit it were true, that the Eldership lay in the dust, at the time of the Nicene counsel, and was never heard of in Christendoome from that hour until this latter age. Will you conclude thereof, that therefore it is not now to be received? that is Popery. For the holy men there met together, suffered many other substantial and most necessary points of doctrine to be buried, as they had been long before their time, and were never in a manner taken out of the ground until this latter age. And all that the fathers decreed at Nice, besides the matter of Arius, which is but one branch of religion far from a perfect confession of faith, let any man read their Cannons as they are set down, either by Ruffinus, or in the first Tome of the councils, and he shall find my words to be most true.

The errors concerning free will, and man's ability to fulfill the law, derived from Justin the martyr, and Irenaeus was at this time in some ripeness, and yet the Nicene Council took no order with these things, as it may appear by their writings, who lived in the ages following. And though Augustine long after, against the pelagians & else where gave free-will a deaths wound, yet notwithstanding, we know, that ever since the Apostles time, in a manner it flourished everywhere, until M. Luther took the sword in hand against it. And by Master Bancrofts reason, the Papists defending free-will, against Master Luther, held the better part. For it may be thought a strange matter in the sight of M. Bancrofts popish eyes, that either man's. free will and ability to fulfill the law of God, should in our time be thought erroneous, and to annihilate the virtue of Christ's kingdom and priesthood, or that the Lord in his word should establish a contrary doctrine thereunto, for his Church to follow unto his coming again, whereas the same was winked at, or buried, when by all men's confession, the divinity of our Savior Christ, the virtue of his priesthood, the power of his office as he is a prophet and the honor of his kingly authority, was so godly, so learnedly, and so mightily established against the Arians in the Council of Nice, &c.

So that if this argument be good and forcible against the Church government, it is also powrfull to overthrow the main point of our justification by faith, besides many other corruptions which were past over, yea and established at that council, which is justly accounted one of the soundest, that the ancient times can afford unto us. Paphnutius alone, was enforced to stand up against the whole Sinode in the cause of the marriage of Ministers, which notwithstanding, he (being a man himself endued with the gift of continency) so defended, that he would not have him that were a Minister being unmarried, ever after to be joined with a wife. These things, and many such like, together with M. Bancrofts judgment of us, pag. 11. and his treatise of the going out of false Prophets, page 11.12. & 13. I overpasse, because I would be brief.

Concerning the 4. causes yielded by him, why false prophets go out into the world, we deny not but the contempt of the true governors of the Church, ambition, self love, and covetousness, do carry many away from the sincerity of the truth: now whether these do bear sway in M. Bancroft and out Bishops, let the world indge. The place of Jerome (touched pa. 14.) unto Euagruis shall be afterward spoken off.

D. BANCROFT page 17.18.19. & 20. But the story of Arius is most pertinent, to show that ambition driveth men to be false Prophets. Epiphanius doth report it thus in effect. Eustathius and Arius strove one against another for a Bishopric. Eustathius obtained it, whereat, Arius began to repine, and grew to be a scismatike, defending that by the word of God, there was no difference between a Priest and a Bishop. He used the same arguments that now are used of these that maintain his opinions. As that the Apostle writing sometimes to priests and deacon, sometimes to Bishops and deacons should thereby signify, that a Bishop and a priest is all one. In conclusion, Arius after due trial, and examination, had by the learned fathers, who then lived of his arguments and sleight, was by the general consent, of the Church overthrown, and condemned for an heretic. And to this day there was never any but heretics, and such lewd persons that condemned the callings of Lord Bishops for Antichristian.

ANSWERE.

There is nothing brought in here out of Epiphanius, but it hath been answered long since by M. Cartwright, and shown to be the reason of Pighius an Archpapist, against M. Wicklieffe and the waldenses, it besemeth M. Bancroft very well to borrow the weapons of such a champion, to fight against the truth. But first M. Bancroft, I would know what you can say against the person of Arius, touching the truth which he defendeth, we will deal afterward: you answer that Epiphanis reckoneth him up amongst heretics, and so you account of him. Wherevnto I reply, that Jerome dealeth with vigilantius after the same measure, because vigilantius held it vnlaweful to pray for the dead, to worship the dead bones, and relics of Saints, and defended marriage, to be preferred before virginnitie. Wherein Jerome (though otherwise a godly man) doth rather bewray his immodest rashness, then any wise discredit Vigilantius with those that know the truth. The same is to be said of Epiphanius and Arius. And indeed, for anything that Epiphanius and Pighius hath brought, or you can bring against him, he was an honester man, than either Eustathius his competitor, or Pighius and D. Bancroft his confutors. He is said indeed to be an Arian, but that could never be proved as yet, and it was rather an action of slander, rather commensed against him by his proud enemies the Bishops, then any true accusation, whereof he can be proved gilty. You cannot find, in the whole Ecclesiastical story, written by these that lived after him, that ever there was any crime of heresy laid to his charge, whereas Eustathius his schoolefellowe and adversary, is recorded by them, as also by Epiphanius, for a known and famous heretic.

Touching Epiphanius, though I will not call his name in question, yet thus much I may truly speak of him, that he was (as the learned know well enogh) so besotted with the corruptions of the times wherein he lived, that his credit alone, is not of sufficient authority to pass sentence against Arius. For the proof hereof, the reader is to understand, that he condemneth Arius for a black heretic, as well because he held it unlawful to pray or to offer anything for the dead, as in that he defended a Bishop and a Priest as M. Bancroft speaketh, to be of equal authority. As for Augustine, whom you bring with Epiphanius against this poor heretic, he rather followeth the received opinion, thē his own judgment of him, according unto truth.

This much touching the person of the man, as for his heresy, if he had no other then those which Epiphanius layeth to his charge, and especially this of the aequallitie between a minister and a Bishop, the spirit of god giveth him a plain discharge from all suspicion, either of heresy or yet of error. For the word of God teacheth us, that to be a teaching Elder (which you retaining your popish custom, call a Priest) is nothing else, but Episcopein, that is to be a Bishoppe or an overseer. And Christ Jesus forbiddeth his Ministers to have any superiority one over another. Now, when Pighius, D. Bancroft, or any other Roman Papist or Protestant, shall be able to answer these and the like reasons, they may then have good leave with open mouth, to cry out upon Arius for his heresy. Otherwise, in condemning that sentence, whose premises they are not able to infringe, they do nothing else but deny the conclusion, which in this, and many other pointes, is Master Bancrofts fashion of dispute. For what else doth he in alleging, that men have condemned Arius for an heretic, whereas neither he nor they, can answer the reasons whereupon Arius his conclusion is grounded. And if Arius his opinion, was no other then that the word of god made no difference between a Bishop and a minister; as master Doctor here setteth down, I cannot think but upon better advisement, he will be consent to revoke the rash sentence, which he hath pronounced against him, lest thereby he do not only strike at Jerome; but even at the Archbishop, and all others, that are of his side in England at this day. For Master Bancroft I think will not say, that a Bishop is superior unto aminister by the word of god, then howe will he answer Jerome in the places quoted by him self page the 14. who saith that in the Apostles time, there was no such difference between them, and that this prerogative that one minister should be above a nother, is grounded upon human custom, & not upon the ordinance of God. And after this sort do our Bishops account of the present Church government, which they hold unchangeable, only as long as it shall please her majesty and the state. If M. Bancroft be of another judgment, we say that he condemneth not Arius aloane, but even Jerome and our Bishops for obstinate heretics, & we crave his answer unto the place of Jerome. Now if he be of Jerome's mind, I would gladly learn of him and Epiphanius, where they learned to condemn men of heresy, for gainsaying such things in religion, as have no other original and ground then the constitutions of men. For if it was not an heresy in the Apostles time (as Jerome telleth us it was none) to hold a minister and a Bishop to be of equal authority, it can be non at this hour, neither could it beat any time since the age, wherein they lived. For no man can be now accounted an heretic, for defending that which had been sound, and Catholic doctrine in the Apostles time.

Now that either we or Arius should conclude, the aequallitie of ministers because the Apostle writeth sometimes unto Priests and Deacons, & sometimes unto Bishops and Deacons, For mine own part, I never heard of the reason before. The reader is to make no other account of it, but as a testimony of Master Chaplains acquaintance with our arguments. And I believe it I should ask either him or Arius, where they find that the Apostle hath written unto Priests any otherwise, then they are contained under the name Bishops) and Deacons, I should put them both to their shifts.

Where he saith, that Arius was condemned for an heretic, by the consent of the whole Church, after due trial and examination of his arguments, by the learned fathers then living, it is as impudent an assertion, as ever he uttered. And I marvel, that he blusheth not to publish such windy stuff unto the view of the world in this learned age. Indeed, if Arius had no other reasons, then that which we have already heard, the learned fathers of his time were very simple, that would stand in the trial and examination of so groundless a supposition. I am sorry to hear you so far gone in the heat of your impatiency, as you should deny the superiority of Ministers to have been again-said, and their Gouernement accounted Antichristian, by any since the time of Arius, save only by heretics and such lend persons.

Do you account the Waldenses to be heretics▪ Do you account M. Wycliffe, M. John Hus, and M. Tindale to be heretics or lend persons? The godly have them in other manner of estimation. And yet M. Carthwright and others have long since proved these men to be irreconcilable adversaries unto the hierarchy, and shown that they began no sooner to stand against the Pope, but they also encountered with the Bishops, whose callings, that they do belong unto the Antichristian kingdom, is manifested by this reason: whereunto if you will maintain the credit of your masters, I would wish you to answer.

Those offices and callings are Antichristian, without which, all form of Gouernements are perfect, save only the government of the kingdom of Antichrist which in no wise can want them.

But such are the callings of Lord Archb. and Bb. as all form of gouernements may be perfect without them, save only the Antichristian kingdom, where in no case they can be missed. For the Government both of the Church and common wealth, can well spare them, and be never a whit the more imperfect. Therefore, the callings of Archb. and Bishops, do only belong unto the kingdom of Antichrist. If you do reply M. Bancroft, that the most learned; and the most zealous of the fathers, especially in these latter times, have taken upon them the callings of Bishops and Archbishops, you do thereby nothing else, but offer to produce your witnesses to swear that the conclusion is not true: And therefore as I have said, so I admonish you again, not to trouble yourself in so gainelesse a labor. But if you will stand our Bishops in any stead, deal against either the proposition or assumption, otherwise the burden of the conclusion will lie upon them, whether they will or no.

Your distinction of the clergy and layity factions, we acknowledge not: For we maintain neither factions nor schisms. If there be any Courtiers or great men, that desire to be enriched with the patrimony of the Church, we wish them better minds, and pray that they may be disappointed of their expectation. Yet we see no more reason, why our Bishops and Chaplains should live upon the spoil and robbery of souls, then Noble men and Gentlemen should be maintained by sacrilege. For we hold, that both sorts, in so doing, do bring the price of blood into their houses. But it is most intolerable, that they who would be taken for Levites and governors of the holy Temple, should have a hand in this trespass. You have streined your conscience to far I fear me, in going about to make up the credit of Bishop Coopers admonition to the people of England. A large conscience I perceive hath along hand, to reach a distinctiō a far of. Let the reader consider the place.

If you set down anything that is Annabaptisticall or Popish, it were meet you should confute it, least the simple auditors should take it for your own doctrine, rather then other men's errors. Now I come to that part of your Sermon, where you deal concerning the trial of spirits.

D: BANCROFT page 33. lin. 26. & pag. 34. lin. 19. & 41. lin. 17. The popish false Prophets will suffer the people to try nothing, but teach them wholly to depend upon them. The giddy spirits would have men to be everseeking and searching. The mean therefore betwixt both these extremities I hold to be best. And this it is, that when you have attained the true grounds of Christian Religion, and are constantly built by a lively faith upon Jesus Christ, being incorporated into his mis •• eal body, by your baptism, and afterwards nourished with the Lord's Supper: you then content yourself and seek no farther, &c.

ANSWERE.

It is well known, that we allow neither popish, norgiddy spirits, no nor yet slanderous and lying spirits. As for the rule of the popish false Prophets, you have squared your doctrine page 43. just according unto the same, as the reader shall perceive in the proper place.

You have plotted us out here such a mean, between two extremities, as they must needs be mean Christians, that will go no further, then the resting place which you have set down for them. I will not say here that the Papists will grant the miserable people under them, leave to go thus far, which is true: but this I will say, that this doctrine of yours, tendeth wholly to remove an able Ministry out of the Church, and so consequently, to rob the people both of the scepter of Christ's government, and also of his word. For if the people need no more, (nay, if it be unlawful for them to go any further) then to be baptized, and after they have attained unto the true grounds of Christian religion, & are engraffed into Christ, to receive the Lord's supper; to what use serveth the preaching of the word? And to what end should the Apostle require, that the word of God, should dwell plentifully. among Christians, and pray that our love may abound more and more in knowledge, and in all feeling, that we may discern things that differ, that we may be pure, and without offense until the day of Christ, filled with the fruits of righteousness, &c. If you could once M. Bancroft, bring this mean of yours to take place: then indeed might you place readers instead of Preachers, over the people without controllement, and say that they need no other teaching, because they are baptized, engraffed into Christ, and fed with the heavenly food exhibited unto them in the Lord's Supper: and what need they more? For Tertullian saith, that we need not be curious, after we have apprehended Christ, nor in quisitiue, after we have received the gospel. But a miserable teacher are you, that in such sort do open a window unto the devil and man's corruption, to break faith into all impiety and wickedness. For how shall either the rage of Satan against us, or the rebellion of our own corruptions within us, be restrained, but by that mighty scepter of Christ's word preached, even unto us that have received the first fruits of the spirit. If you had ever known what it had been, to receive Christ truly, and to retain him being received, you would never have endeavored to seduce your auditors, in this monstrous & popish sort. But because the light of your own conscience doth tell you, that Christians cannot contain themselves within this prison, wherein you have shut them: You set down a good supply of the want of teaching, if men would desire to be resolved in any matter of doubt: your own words, or rather your popery I will set down.

D. BANCROFT page 42. & 43 line 24. God hath bound himself unto his church of purpose, that men by hir good direction, might in this point (that is in maters of dout) be relieved: to whose godly determinatiō, in maters of question, her dutiful children, ought to submit themselves without any curious or willful contradiction. Neither can I see, now that popery is bannished, and the truth of Christian religiō is godly planted amongst us, why in these dais, we should not attribute as much to the decrees of our learned fathers in their lawful assemblies, as other men in times past, of as great judgment as we are, have done.

ANSWERE.

You account the Papists to be false Prophets, because they will suffer the people to try nothing, but teach them wholly to depend upon them: you do well in it. But if this touching councils, be not to ioin hand with them, in the point wherein you pretend to be their adversary, & if this be not to teach men to believe, as their mother the church doth let the reader judge. The Bishop of Rome, desireth no more to be granted unto him, for the authority of his councils, thē you have set down in express terms. And if the Lord hath bound himself by his promise unto his Church of purpose, that men should be directed thereby: I would demand of you, whether this promise was, that the Church should direct them unto truth, or unto error. If you say unto truth, otherwise it were no promise, I demand then how the Church can err? For either the Lord must break his promise, if he hath made any, or else the Church cannot err in the direction of her dutiful children. Now if you say, that the Church cannot err, the reader knoweth what account to make of you, if she be subject unto errors, to what end should we stand to her determination in matters of question, any further then we are assured, that her decrees are according unto the word. Now, if it be lawful for us (otherwise our bondage should be intolerable) to try whether her determinations be according unto the word, and to reject them, if they be otherwise, to what ende do you carry us from the sure foundation of the word, unto the uncertain and unconstant voice of the Church? surely, if you would know what I conceive of you, for this, & the like points of doctrine in your Sermon, my opinion is, that you are not far from a close papist, how vehement so ever you speak against thē: and whosoever they were, y ^t allowed your Sermon to be published, they may justly fear, least the Papists do ere it be long, make too great advantage that you have been suffered to preach and to publish many grounds of popery vnreprooued, under the profession of the gospel. The Church of God we reverence, to be willful in standing against her, or any member thereof we hold it unlawful, but that men should stand in matters of question unto her determination, as unto the undoubted voice of God, she hath no authority to require any such obedience at our hands.

I dare say for you, that you are vexed at the very heart, that anything established in the Conuocation house should be called in question, when you prove that assembly to be lawful, and the learned fathers (as you call them) there met, to be true Pastors, and not ravening wolves, we will promise to give greater reverence unto their degrees. Popery is so bannished from among us, that by the authority of those learned fathers, you dare in open Pulpit, and public writings, justify many points thereof. It is not only lawful but necessary, that all men, of what state soever they be, should be required, yea, & compelled by the Magistrate, to subscribe unto true religion. 2. Chron. 14.12, & cap. 34 31.32. 2. Kings 11.17. Nehem. 9.38. & 10.29. This we do willingly confess: Howbeit, we hold it unlawful to subscribe in that form that our Bishops do exact at our hands. Your reason that subscription is lawful, therefore the English, or the Augustine subscription is lawful, is no other then if I should say, that religion is good, therefore the popish religion is good. But of all other points in your book, I cannot but greatly wonder, that you seem to justify the subscription unto the Augustine confession, and the silenceing of those that would not subscribe unto it. You are not ignorant I think, that the said confession is unsound, in the point of the Lord's supper, which hath set Germany on fire these many years. As for the subscription which in England is required by statute, our men have been always ready to yield unto it. But the learned fathers whereof you speak, seeing that by the same subscription, they could have no advantage against the truth, have coined a new one of their own, which we hold utterly unlawful, because it requireth our consent unto the popish hierarchy, unto the Apocrypha, and many other corruptions. The which course of theirs, because they are not able to justify, therefore have you done well, to find out a way, whereby they may easily determine of any question or difficulty moved unto them. So that now, if we deny to subscribe unto that, which against law they require of us, until we be satisfied in the douts we make, whether it may be lawful for us to maintain the proud and ambitious superiority of one minister above another, the appointing of ignorant and godless men unto the Ministry, the cross in Baptism, the profanation of that Sacrament by women, with other manifold abuses, which we are urged to approve, their answer may be according unto your rule, that they being the learned fathers of our Church, have in their lawful assemblies, decreed that this subscription should be called for, and they see no reason, why popery being now bannished, &c. we should not attribute as much unto their decrees, as other men in times past have done. And so if we were dutiful children, we would submit our selves without any willful contradiction unto their godly determination: seeing the Lord hath by his promise, tied himself unto them, being his Church for this purpose. Now, if we shall reply anything again, as being unsatisfied by this resolution, we are presently cried out upon, as being giddy Spirites, and men that cannot be content with any good order established by law, and approved by our betters, even such as gave their blood for the testimony of the truth. And thus instead of answering our reasons, they invent slanders against us, and fall out with our conclusion, according unto Master Bancrofts manner of dealing.

Whereof as I have often before admonished the reader, so now I have special occasion to put him in mind of the same concerning his dealing with us touching the book of common prayer, and the point of her majesties supremacy. Wherein he spendeth 20. pages for the most part, we show diverse corruptions to be in that book, we set down the particulars, as baptism by women, cross in baptime ring in matriage, appropriating of garments to the use of religion, and grosser coruptions, as Arianism, where the book maketh Michael to be a creature, and addeth unto the word, as psalm 14. in which place, 3. verses, that is the 5.6.7. are added unto the text, more then ever the holy Ghost penned in that psalm, with other grievous corruptions, which I pass over. Now howe doth M. Bancroft think you deal for the credit of the book, in answering these particulars? he toucheth not one of them, but first of all he telleth his auditors, howe glad all the churches in Europ were at the establishing of religion, in the beginning of her Majesty's reign, And for our partes we wish them confusion that do not rejoice at it. Secondly having set down what pains was taken in reforming the book he bringeth in diverse testimonies of godly learned men, to prove that the book is in a manner without spot, or wemme, whereby what doth he else but fall out with our conclusion. We charge the book with diverse particular corruptions, we bring our proofs, he is not able to answer them. Therefore our conclusion will stand firm, that the book is corrupt. The general commendations of all the men in the world is not able to clear it, when it is not denied to contain many gross particular falts. Thirdely he falleth a quarreling with a new communion book, preferred in parliament, the year 86. and caueleth diverse ways against the same. As y ^t it had been diverse times altered, that it mentioned not the civil magistrate in the first edition, and that it doth not tie the minister to any set form of prayer &c. Al which points, I omit as frivolous, and ungodly cavils not to be stood upon.

Lastly he falleth to his old bias, that is to plain slandering, and affirmeth that one of our reasons why we hold the established government of the church of England to be Antichristian, is because the civil Magistrate is made a Pope amongst us, and that we cal her majesties supremacy unto question. whereunto we answer no otherwise, then Nehemiah did Sanballat. It is not done according unto these words that thou sayest, but thou fainest them of thine own heart. Look whatsoever prerogative in ecclesiastical or civil causes he or any man living can truly attribute unto the civil magistrate, we do the same. Concerning the preeminence in civil causes there is no great question he will say between us, only in ecclesiastical matters we assume unto our selves saith he, that authority which by right is the magistrates. This slander is general, we desire the particular proof of it we cannot answer generalles, he repheth that the magistrate by law is to have whatsoever priuiledg the pope at any time had with in this land by usurpation, what will he conclude hereof? Not I hope that the magistrate is to have the power of remitting sins, and dispensing with the law of God, which the Pope by usurpation had in times past within this kingdom? Her Majesty we know, detesteth all such perogatives from her heart. But what is it that he requireth to be granted unto the civil authority, which we yield not most willingly? The power to establish godly ecclesiastical laws, and constitutions amongst the subjects? we are so far from denying this, that we hold it intolerable that our Bishops, and the convocation house, should intrude their subscriptions, aduertisements, and cannons upon the subjectes, whereas no such things can be warrāted by statute. And whereas he saith, that we claim unto our Presbiteries the ordinary authority to make all laws, constitutions and ceremonies of the Church, it is most false. Al that we affirm in this point, is no more then her majesty voluntarily yealdeth in all such cases. when the question is whether such or such a case be statute law or not? whether doth M. Bancroft think her majesty or her learned council in the law, as her judges, Solliciters, Atturneis, &c. to have greatest skill in the deciding of this matter? he knoweeth well enough, that her Majesty in all such points, will be directed by that which her aforesaid lawiers do prove to be law and equity, and yet thinketh her royal prorogatiue no whit diminshed thereby. In the like case then, we say that the true governors of the church are meetest to direct her majesty what laws and ceremonies are most lawful, expedient, & necessary, for the right government of the church And we say, that as her majesty in worldly matters, is to give ear unto the Lawiers which have skill in that faculty: so, in the matters of God is she to establish nothing in the church, but that which the true ministers and true governors (if they may be had) shall show unto her to be according unto the word of GOD. And yet all this while we make not the governors of the Church to have power to enact laws, we leave that authority unto her Majesty and the Parliament, unto whose hands the Lord hath committed it. This indeed we affirm. Moreover, that her majesty and the Parliament are bound to establish and erect amongst their subjects, all such laws and ceremonies, as the true Ministers of the word, shall prove by the Scriptures of God, to be meet and necessary for the government of the temple, and house of the Lord, within this kingdom: And that they are bound to see, that no form of religion or Church-government be in force amongst the subjectes, but that alone which by the word of God may be proved lawful, and so that they are bound to see, that the Church of God be cleansed and purified of all Idolatrous, popish, superstious, and superfluous government and ceremonies. And furthermore we say, that they are to provide by law that all persons, both Ministers and others, do submit themselves without contradiction, unto all such things as shall be godly established in the Church. Whether this be M. Bancroft to weaken or call into question her Majesty's prerogative in Ecclesiastical causes, let the reader determine. We would also desire him to judge, whether her Majesty be well used at your hands, which call her a petty Pope, and say that she usurpeth the same authority in causes, Ecclesiastical with in her dominions, which the pope did in times past. Had we conceived, much less published any such things, we had worthily smarted for it. Your answer here will be, that you did bring in this reason, to show the weakness of Martins arguments against the Bishops. Let Martin in other points answer for himself. The case of her Majesty and our Bishops are not alike: He proveth our Bishops to be petty Popes and usurpers, you deny it not. And therefore you only address yourself to show what a rebellious and absurd conclusion he hath made by the like kind of reasoning as you suppose. And where his minor truly assumeth our bishops to be usurpers and petty Popes, you falsely and standerously charge her Majesty to be an usurper and a petty Pope. We are not so hasty to shed blood as you are, otherwise, this your vndutifulnes is so heinous, that I could easily show that there were no other way of desence for you; but in the acknowledgement of your rash boldness, (to give your doings no worse terms) to fly unto her Majesty's clemency.

TOVCHING SCOTLAND.

WE answer, that we desire not the Eldershipp to be planted in the Church of England, because Scotland or Geneva enjoyeth the same, but in as much as Christ Jesus the head & king of his church hath commanded it to be therein. And therefore we admit the government of no church under heaven to be the p ••••• e of that which we desire, but only that regiment which is set down in the word of God, the perfection whereof if any Church hath attained unto, we rejoice with them, and desire to be partakers of so great a blessing, in the Lods good time. But as for anything that is amiss (if there be ought) either in Geneva or Scotland, we labor no more to have that established in England, then we do to have the great abuses that reigned in the Church of Corinth, or Galatia to be imitated. The slander which you have raised, both against the Kings Majesty there, in giving out, that he is a deadly enemy unto the present government established in his kingdom, and watcheth but his time to over throw it, and also against the godly ministers of that realm, in making them traitors unto their sovereign, Heaue to be answered by thenselves: and I dout not, but you will in time be forced to answer the injury, that you have offered unto that godly and noble King o • and also unto the whole Church, with in his dominion.

But let it be granted, that the true Church governors in Scotland, behaved themselves rebelliously towards then Prince, which yet is most false, what is that to the Church government which they enioly? Do you think it a good season to say, that the Archbishop is a Traitour, therefore the Archbishopric is gilty of Treason: You cannot deny, but Thomas Becke • was a traitor, so were diverse others that have been Archbishops of Canterbury, but I trust you will not therefore attaint the Archbishopric of treason.

Brown a known Scismatike is a man very fit to be one of your witnesses against the Eldership. His entertainment in Scotland was such, as a proud ungodly man deserved to have. God give him and you repentance, if it be his will, otherwise, you shall make and hard reckoning both of you, before the judgment seat of Jesus Christ, for the slanders which you have raised up against the government of his kingdom here upon earth. Your calender deceived you for it was not the Parliament of the year 88. where of he wrote, but of another held Anno 86. or before.

If anything be written amiss in any of the books that you mention, we have nothing to do therewith. Bring our own assentions, and you shall be answered. We hold it altogether unlawful for Ministers and Church officers to deal in any civil cause, much more, to depose Princes, and therefore our attempts that way are not to be feared. Look you, & your masters unto those things, who arrogat unto yourselves, that preeminence, which is in deed dangerous unto the throne of the magistrate and think Parliaments and laws cannot be half orderly kept and enacted, without Lord's spiritual.

Your fear, that whatsoever hath been done or written in foreign Countries, is labored to have execution with us at home, is but the overflowing of your gall. The disease is dangerous, and you may one day answer for your distemp • rature in his presence, before whom the imaginers of evil against their brethren, shall have their reward.

We hold indeed, that the Magistracy is gods ordinance be he a good or a bad, an heathen, or a Christian, that is called thereunto: so that the right of a Christian and an heathen Magistrate, within his dominions is the same. You that hold the contrary, profess yourself not to be a subject for conscience sake, as the Apostle commandeth, but for some other respect. So you would be very dutiful belike, if you were under an heathen Prince.

Ministers we say, are not to deal in civil causes, and therefore in that point we ascribe unto the Magistrate, both Potestatē juris & facti: that is, power to make laws, & to execute them. If there arise any difficulty (as often as it cometh to pass) of that which is agreeable unto the law of God, in matters that are controverted, then indeed it is the Ministers duty to inform the Magistrate of the mind of the Lord: wherein he doth nothing else, but (respondere de jure) show what the will of God is, that the magistrate may (statuere de facto) pronounce sentence accordingly.

For Ecclesiastical matters, it is the word of God only, that therein hath (potestatē juris) the power to determine, what is acceptable in the sight of God, & the Minister ought to have the knowledge thereof, that he may declare the same, both unto Magistrate and people. The Church officers also are appointed of God, to execute all ecclesiastical maters. And if you should attribute this power unto the magistrate, the imagistrate might justly account of you as you are. For will you have the Magistrate to preach the word, administer the Sacraments, take the charge of watching over the manners of the people, and distributing to the pore within his parish? or will you have him to visit the sick, comfort the weak, ordain ministers, discuss controversies in religion, & exercise the church censures, by excommunications, &c. And yet these are the only maters which we account ecclesiastical, & wherein alone we hold it lawful for church officers to deal, other punishments of malefactors as imprisoning, fining, or any mulct y ^t toucheth the life, body or goods of men, are only to be reterced to the Magistrates, who bear the sword for that purpose. Our Bishops usurping this sword, do show that they and their fathers house, and not we do labor to bring and maintain confusion in church & common wealth.

You exhortation both unto people and magistrates, that the one should avoid, and the other punish heretical spirits, we embrace withal our harts. Being ready to show, as our writings have done at large, that your errors, corruptions, idleness pride, ambition, slanders, and untruths, uttered against the truth, hath not only (as daily experience teacheth us) begotten and nourished the lamentable ignorance, which everywhere reigneth in this land, but also called for the wrath of God to fall upon us, because such unruly and wicked spirits as you, are tolerated in the holy ministry amongst us. You are now come to the gathering up of your standers and vntruche, into an heap in the conclusion of your sermon, lest the readers and auditors should forget, that you are an impudent slanderer. And therefore that you may incense the magistrates against us in one place, especially you rake thē up after this manner.

Hir Majesty is depraved, hir authority is impugned, and great dangers are threatened. Ciuil government is called into question: princes pretogatiues are curiously scanned; the interest of the people in kingdoms is greatly advanced, & all government generally is pinched at & comemened: The Church is condemned, the ancient fathers are despised, your preachers are defaced, and yet these men are tolerated.

Whereunto I answer with the wise man, that the lying tongue slayeth the soul, and that the very words of the wicked lie in wait for blood, but the mouth of the righteous will deliver them. And so we doubt not, whensoever we are araigned for any of these heavy accusations, but that we shall be delivered from this bloody tongue. The reader knoeth that (as a noble Emperor spake in the like case) if it be sufficient to accuse, no man can be innocent. Now if he hath these advantages against any of us, let him set down his particulars, and name the man, or his writings, and he shall be answered. Otherwise we make no other account of such Epistrophaes & homoioteleutaes, then of the barking and dog Rethorick, of some profane Lucian or god less Porphirie. It is no news for us to have our legs & thighs desired to be broken. The reader is to remember, that this was the Jews requests unto Pilate concerning our Savior Christ▪ and therefore we are not to think it strange, that M. Bancroft is guided by their spirit whose place he supplieth. But this we are to know, that neither he not his masters shall do anything against us, but that which the Lord our 〈1 page duplicate〉 〈1 page duplicate〉 God hath long since determined, and therewith by his grace, we hope to be right well contented.

Instead of arming his hearers with reasons out of the word against us, whom he accounteth sect. masters and false Prophets, he cometh off, after his wonted manner, with idem peridem, leaving his auditors in as great doubt as they were before: And saith, that the doctrine of the Church of England is pure and holy: the government thereof, both in respect of her Majesty, and of our Bishops is lawful and godly: the book of Common prayer, containeth nothing in it contrary to the word.

Her Majesty's government, he knoweth well enough we call not in question. He and his patrons, have corrupted the doctrine of our church, & as for the hierarchy & common book, when he hath made up y ^t holes which I have already shown to be in both (besides the vncureable wounds y ^t other men have discovered) he may build something upon his conclusion, which if he do not, his manner of disputation, in craving and begging the matter in controversy will in a while grow to be a common proverb. If we were such unreasonable men, as we would find salt with matters that are blameless: his exhortation, that private men would take heed, and the Magistrate take punishment of us, would carry with it some weight. But in as much as both the Magistrate and people see, that we have cause to speak, and perceive that out adversaries can do little, if they cannot set a fair face upon a cracked cause, we fear not any great hurt, that his tongue can work unto us.

And the very same account do we make of his speech, where he saith, that we use the same arguments for the sovereignty, of our Presbiteries against the Prince, in causes Ecclesiastical, that the Pope doth for his principallitie in the same, and we answer as the Papists do him. But these things (as he saith) he cannot stand to prove at this time, only he thought it necessary to advertise his hearers of it, that they might the better beware of such kind of spirits. Take his advantage who list.

We care not how little a do we have at the Arches, and therefore we mean not to take any great advantage against your tongue, any further then your blushing may be for the clearing of the truth. The reader will think you worthy to be marked in the forehead, according unto the Romaine law, except you prove this which you have so confidently set down. Though, as it should seem, you have a commission, to use your tongue and pen at your pleasure, yet you cannot blot out the light of men's reading & knowledge. We are known to be so out of amity (in this case especially) with all Romanists, and you truly accounted to be so nearly allied unto them, that we desire no other weapons to strike down the hierachie, then M. Luther, and M. Calvin have use to overthrow the Romaine chair and her ministers.

How often shall it be told you, that we would have no civil matters handled in any ecclesiastical meeting? and therefore, that we admit not anything in our assemblies, to be decreed against the constitutions of Princes, any further then Princes may account the truth of the word to be against their statutes. We are as far from making our own wills, to be the rules of other men's lives, or from affirming that what we speak is the very word of God, as you are from being ashamed to lie in the face of the sun: you have taken great pains in sowing the seed of most gross untruths: repent betimes, least in the Lord's just judgment, you reap the fruits of your lying tongue.

Concerning M. Cartwright. Page 97. 9S. 100.

WE depend not upon men, Christ Jesus is our only guide. As concerning M. Cartwright, whom you (to keep your tongue in ure with your natural vain) call our ring leader, we bless God, that ever he hath vouchsafed us such an instrument to stand in the defense of his holy government, and to give your hierarchy, and your high Prieste the shameful foil. But we follow him no further, then he attendeth upon the truth of his God. And in that work we are not ashamed to glaine after so worthy a man. But what can you lay to his charge? you say that he allegeth Cyprian, Jerome, &c. to prove the equality that ought to be in the ministers of the word and Sacraments, and that in the ancient times there was no difference betwixt a Bishop & a Priest, but that whosoever was a Bishop, was a Priest also: and that they had all equal authority within their own parishes, whereas the clean contrary say you, is to be seen in their writings.

Then heaven and earth, be you judges in this caus • , that the mouth of this slanderer may be stopped. First, the place of Cyprian lib. 1. epist. 3. calleth him a Priest, whom D. Whitgift would have to be an Archbishop, & the papists affirm to be his elder brother the pope. Therefore by Cyprians judgment, whosoever was a Bishop, was a priest. Again, Cyprian speaking of the election of a priest, by the consent of the whole people, lib. 1. epist. 4. he maketh the same manner of electing Cornelius, Bishop of Rome, and calleth his Bishopric a priesthood, lib. 4. epist. 2. Now, that Cyprian condemned superiority among Bishops or ministers, his sentence in the counsel of Carthage proveth it: where he saith, that none of them made him self a Bishop of Bishops, he also reproveth Pupianus, that he made himself a Bishop of a Bishop.

As to Jerome, M. Cartwright allegeth these places out of him. A priest, that is to say a Bishop, and a little after, the Apostle doth plainly teach, that a Bishop and a priest are all one. And in another place, a Bishop and a priest are the same: again although with the ancient fathers, Bishops and priests were all one.

Now good reader bear witness, whether Master Cartwright hath falsified the ancients or not, & whether this past shame Doctor, hath not cause to sow up his lips forever opening them in pulpit again. For the confirmation of the equality of Ministers, & that the name Bishop, was common unto all the Ministers of the word and Sacraments in the ancient times, thou mayest add unto that which hath been already spoken. First the testimony of Ignatius which saith, that it was not lawful for any to baptize, but for the Bishop. Where then M. Bancroft was the distinction, between him and the priest, or his superiority over the priest? Secondly, that in the time of Gregory the great, priests did ordain Bishops, and yet this is made one of the essential differences between a Bishop and a priest, [a] that a Bishop may ordain, whereas a priest hath no such authority. Thirdly, that Theod. mentioneth an 150 Bb. which were met, for the election of the Bishop of Constantinople. Where all these Bb. could be gotten, if Bb. and Ministers were not all one, let M. Bancroft show. Lastly, it would be known, what account M. Bancroft maketh of that notable martyr M. Tindale, which speaking of priests and Bb. hath these words: there is presbyteros, which same is saith he, immediately after called a Bishop: and in the same place, all that were Elders or priests (if they so will) were called Bishops also, though they have divided the name now. I hope he will not answer him, as he doth Arius, that this opinion was condemned for an heresy long ago, and none but heretics and such lewd persons ever since that time held it.

One thing I do not a little marvel at, both in M. Bancroft and all the rest of his coat, why they rather join with Sir Thomas Moore and the papists, in calling the Ministers of the word priests, then with M. Tindale, and the most sincere professors in the world at this day, in abrogating that popish name, and using the word Minister, or Elder in the stead thereof. The B. of Winchester saith, that the Archbishop hath shown sufficient reasons against T. C. why the Ministers of the gospel should be called priests, and all of them are of the same opinion, and will not take it patiently if they be gainsaid in it: but what account is to be made of them for this labor, 〈…〉 shall learn out of M. Tindale, who in his obedience of a Christian man saith, that the word Sacerdos, should have had another name in english, then priest, but that Antichrist hath deceived us with unknown and strange terms, to bring us into superstitious blindness, as for the word presbyteros saith he (both in this place, and against Moore in the place above cited) it ought in English, to be translated Elder. This I thought good to admonish the reader, least he should think me in using the word priest, to allow of that Antichristian name. Whether M. Cartwright hath truly alleged Ignatius and others, to prove the use and practice of the office of Elders in the Church, long after the Apostles time, because there is nothing but the pawn of M. Bancrofts credit brought to the contrary, I refer the reader, to examine the testimonies used by M. Cartwright for that purpose. Especially the place of Jerome upon Isaiah, who saith that they had also the presbitery or eldership in the church, and that of Ambrose upon the 1. Tim. cap. 5. where he complaineth, that through the pride & slothfulness of the Doctors, the Elders were worn out of the Church: were it not y ^t M. Chaplain carrieth his license in his bosom, to speak what he will, I should wonder that he durst in open pulpit and writing, deny elders to be in the church long after the Apostles time, seeing D. Whitgift telleth us of his own knowledge, that in the Primitive Church, they had in every church certain seniors, to whom the government of the congregation was committed. M. Bancroft, seeth there is no advantage in granting any part of the truth, and therefore, he taketh a round course, to deny everything without more a do: Take his advantage thereof who list.

His profaneness, in calling the Elders, Aldermen, the Lord I fear will revenge, who cannot abide to have the officers of his kingdom, derided and scoffed at by any Lucian whosoever.

Your caueling with the proofs, brought in by M. Cartwright, to show the Eldershippe to be most flowrishing in Constantine's time, i • a proof, that you retain your usual boldness in out facing the truth. If it be not a good reason to say, that because there were infinite numbers of Bishops and Elders, at the council of Nice, therefore the Eldership was in a flowrishing estate at that time, to what purpose, should they be present in that synod, if they had nothing to do with the government of the church? If they had to do with the government of the church, the reason holdeth most forcible, to prove the Eldership to be up under Constantine. For wheresoever there is a Church government by Bishops and Elders, there the Eldership is in force. Though we should grant, that you deal truly with Eusebius, yet his testimony is not a whit the weaker, to prove the government by the Eldership, because he meaneth nothing else, but to show the great appearance from all places of the Clergy men, of all sortes in that assembly. Eor beit that his only purpose was, to show this great concourse of Clergy men, yet that hindereth not, but he speaking of Bishops and elders met at the said Synod, we may thence gather, Bishops and Elders did govern the church at that that time.

That Bishops had large jurisdiction before the Nicene council is only affirmed, and not proved by you M. Bancroft: the contrary hath been shown. It is your manner to build upon false grounds, which have been long since ouerthrone. The appointing of Metropolitans (or confirming whether you will) at the council of Nice, hindered not the government of the Eldership to be in force. They had not such an unruly jurisdiction, as the Archbishops do usurp: The fifth Canon of the council, whereby it is decreed, y ^t the disorders of the church, should be compounded, at the provincial assemblies, & not by that Metropolitans show, what small authority they had. They had but their own suffrages as every other minister had. That which the council of Nice attributed unto them, was no more then chief place in the meetings. Aunswere that which M. Cartwright hath written in this question, and then set down your bold conclusion: otherwise, the reader will deride your boldness, in pitching a campe of torn assertions, whereof, not one will be granted unto you.

Faine would you I see, have the people not to give ear unto us, and to that purpose you bring up to them the reasons, that all Atheists have for them selves, why they will not embrace the true religion. And that is because the professors thereof cannot agree among them selves. The godly are not ignorant, that there must be schisms in the Church of God, and therefore cannot stumble at the divisions among us, if they be any. We have learned of the blessed Apostle to be so far from agreeing with any save only in the truth, as we hold our selves bound to bid battle unto at the Angels i • heaven, if they stand against the same. Our breaches would be easily made up, if you would yield the Church her right. As for your side, it is well known howe little you agree save only in the main drift, whereat you must all shoot, or else you shall soon fall to the ground. And that is in standing against the truth, & maintaining outrageous coruptions. I have already noted, that you in this short invective against us, have twice scratched the Archbishop by the face, and that in matters of weight.

The 3. last pages of his Sermon, contain nothing in them, but general exhortations, that the people would cleave unto the truth without wavering: the which we earnestly entreat all men to do, as they would be saved in the day of the Lord: And from our hearts we wish (if it be the Lord's will) both unto them, and to all our adversaries, and perticularlie unto M. Bancroft, that immortal crown of glory, whereof, he speaketh in the last page, desiring them and him, notwithstanding to call to mind, that neither liars, nor those that delight in lies, especially against gods truth and his church, shall ever be partakers thereof.