Answer Unto Assertion that Church of Rome is the True Church

Assertion.

IT is an article of our Faith, to believe the Catholic Church, whose Scholmaister is the holy Ghost, and therefore in the Creed that article is placed next to the article of the belief in the holy Ghost: by whose continual instruction and assistance being directed, she cannot err in matters of faith. For as saint Paul saith, she is Columna & firmamentum veritatis: so that we are all bound her to believe and obaie, yea howsoever it seemeth to our sense & understanding.

Aunswere.

YOu affirm that we ought to believe the Catholic Church. It is true. we ought to be most assured that the death of Christ was not fruitless, but that by it the Lord hath purchased a peculiar people unto him self, taking them out of all places where it hath liked him, according to the good pleasure of his will: without bindinge of himself, and his grace unto any particular person, country, or place alone, and this we ought to believe.

Consider it well therefore with yourself, that the church is a matter that falleth into belief, in so much that good Christians harkeninge overmuch unto their reason & sense, have sometime judged amiss thereof: taking it not to be, when notwithstādinge it is, or not there to be, where in truth it is: stumbling at such things, as sense & reason are wont to be offended withal: as that the persons be often in number few, in condition base, in estimation contēptible, subject unto the injurious dealings of the world: and therefore not only not equal unto the rest, but in the judgment of sense & reason much inferior. So that necessarily belief taketh place in the article of the Church. And if this be true in particular churches, howe much more is the use of faith required for the Catholic & universal, church, which cannot be subject to any man his sight. You affirm moreover that the holy Ghost is schoolmaster unto the church, & that therefore this article touching the church is placed next unto that of our belief in the holy Ghost. I do admit your gathering for there nere placing, & I heartily pray you consider what can be said for the order of their standing. For albeit their places be nere together, yet the article of our belief in the holy Ghost in order is the former, taking the first place & the upper hand of the other, whereby we are admonished, that if any people claim the title of the Catholic church, we are not bound to believe them, before they make good proof, that the holy Ghost hath been their schoolmaster. For they may not come into to the possession of the Catholic church, but by proof, that the doctrine w ^t they hold, hath been taught them by that heavenly teacher. And therefore let the writings of the holy Ghost be perused, which are the canonical scriptures, as witnesseth Chrysostom in this words: Omnia quaecunque vel Lex dicit, vel Prophetae vaticinantur, vel Apostoli praedicāt, Samcto spiritui vere tribuuntur & ascribuntur: And if it shall appear by them, that you have been taught of him, we will yield unto you the title of the catholic church: But if you will devide the holy Ghost from the Scriptures, vrginge us only with his bare name, and do not warrant by the word that, which you ascribe unto him: we cannot receive such a spirit for holy Ghost: because we find a grant both of the Spirit and the word, passed from the Lord unto the Church, to continue forever jointly together. Hoc foedus meum cū eis dicit Dominus: Spiritus meus qui est in te, & verba mea quae posui in ore tuo, non recedent, de ore tuo, & de ore seminis tui, dicit Dominus, ex nunc & us{que} in sempiternum. This is my covenant with them, saith the Lord: my Spirit that is upon thee, & my word which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, from hence forth even forever. You say likewise that the Church cannot err in matters of faith, because S. Paul saith she is Columna & Firmamentū veritatis: If she be the pillar of truth, let us, I pray you, see the banner of truth, I mean the word of God displayed in your Church, which (you say) is the pillar thereof, and then we will not refuse to fight under your standard: But you have hid the word of God from the multitude, in the close vessel of a strange and unknown tongue, and from the rest in the dark dens and dungeons of your own expositions. For you will allow thē to make no sense or construction thereof, otherwise than you shall ratify and allow. And therefore if the Church be the pillar of truth, we findinge no truth with you, can acknowledge no true Church among you. I am to crave of you, even by the mercies of Christ, that you would diligently peruse that whole chapter of S. Paul, where you gather that the Church cannot err, because she is the pillar and ground of truth: and then you shall find that it is not likely by his dealing for her direction, and that by writing, even in the least things, that he was of opinion she could not err. For he hath not left her unto her own judgment upon that hope, no not in matters, where there was the least fear of error & deceit. The Apostle, as it appeareth in that chapter, had taught Timothy, that Bishops & Deacons may be no dronkards, no fighters, no mē given to filthy lucre, no men whose children live without awe or cōlie order: that their wifes should be honest, no sclāderers, but sober & faithful in all things, Immediatly after these instructions he hath these words, these things write I unto the, trusting to come to the very shortly, but if I tarry long, that thou mayest know yet how to behave thyselfe in the house of God, which is the church of the living god, the pillar & ground of truth. Saint Paul here derecteth Timothy by writing, how to beehaue himself for dealings in the church, touching those things where error seemeth least to be feared. For who would suspect the church of so much want in judgment, that she were to be warned & that by writing, in hir choice of Ministers to beware of drunkards, fighters, covetous persons, & men that cā not rule their own households. A man would think that civil men, who have no help but from flesh and blood, were sufficiently able to discern of thē selfs, that such infamous persons were not meet mē to serve in a place of so great credit. Who would not have trusted the church w ^t greater matters than these, if S. Paul by his example had not made us suspicious & gelous over her herein? Who whē he giveth so much (as you think) unto the church, even then & there saith: These things have I written, that thou mayest know (if I tarie long) how to behave thyself in the church of god, which is the pillar of truth. He should rather have said (if he had been of your opiniō, touching y ^e impossibility of the church to err) I will not trouble the w ^t writing of these matters: there is no danger although I neither speak nor write thereof. For the church by whom they are to be chosen, having promise of such assistance continually frō the holy Ghost, as that it is not possible for her to err, can order matters of greater difficulty than these. She cannot err in matters of faith, to judge amiss of thē, & therefore is error much less to be feared, in discerning that so gross evils as these be, cannot beseme him, who is to serve the lord in so high a calling. I heartily beseech you to mark it well, that in the same place where you ground the Church cannot err, the Apostle hath left a doctrine unto the Church least she should err, and that in matters most easy to be discussed. So that if the Church be void of error, it is not otherwise, than so farforthe as she giveth an attentive ear to the writings of the Holy Ghost, which are given to keep hir from swaruinge. For the Apostle doeth first instruct her by wrytinge, before he tell us of this privilege, which (you say) upholdeth a freedom from erringe. How be it you shall hardly persuade any man of indifferent judgment, that the Apostle would have us to conceive so highly of hir impossibility to err in matters of faith: as not to inquire whither she follow therein the rule of the written word: when in his own practice, he leaveth her not without direction in writing, touching matters not of faith, but (which is less subject unto error) of conversation: and that even in the same place, where this privilege of hers seemeth to be most upholden by him. Saint Paul instructeth a man with doctrine and principles of truth, that he may know howe to behave himself in the Church, which is the pillar of truth: But you first of all without doctrine, thrust a man upon your Church: & then force him to embrace such doctrine, as there he shall find received without further examination: because (as you say) it is the pillar of truth, and therefore cannot err. I leave it to the judgment of every indifferent reader to consider, whither this manner of proceeding, be anything like unto that course which the Apostle keepeth. It were the spediest dispatch of all controversies, although not the best, if the one party should be first put in possession, and there upon have title unto all things possessed: But it were the best, although not the spediest dispatche, if the title were first assuredly known and determined, & thereupon the true owner put in possession. You will first have the possessiō of the Church, & thervpō be intitled to the truth, and all other treasures thereof: Whereas you ought first to prove your title to the truth to be good: & then might you lawfully have possession of the church. As concerning the sense and meaning of that place of the Apostle, Chrysostom maketh another exposition of it, than your Church of Rome can digest. Est columna (inquit Chrysost.) ac firmamentum veritatis, non quemadmodum illud Iudaicum tēplum: Hoc enim est quod Fidem continet ac praedicationem: quippe veritas Ecclesiae & columna & firmamentum est. He saith that the truth is the pillar and ground of the Church. He will have the Church to be a pillar hewē out of the truth. In his judgment the words are to be expounded passively, so that the meaning of this saying. (The church is the ground & pillar of truth) is, that the Church is a pillar and made one of the truth. You would have us to discern the scriptures by the church, because (as you say) she cannot err: but Augustine would have us to discern the church by the scriptures, his words are these: In scriptures didicimus Christum: in scriptures didicimus Ecclesiā: Has scripturas communiter habemus, quare non in eis & Christum & Ecclesiam communiter retinemus? Now that we have seen the strength and ground of your beginning, I pray you • ou consider in good earnest the form and manner of your proceedinge. And reasoning in this trial of true Religion. You first appoint a church which (as you take it) is the church of Rome, a number of people who are altogether of your judgment in these matters that are called into question, those you say cannot err, and therefore by them you will be tried, As if in causes of trial, a man might pick out all the men himself who were to pass upon him: & that law & reason would permit a mā to refuse God & the country, & to put himself upon his fellow prisoners, yea and upon those only of them, who were indicted of the same trespass, that he standeth to be tried of. It is against all right & reason, you should be both party & judge. Augustine saith in the place before alleged Scripturas cōmuniter habemus, The scriptures are common and indifferent to both, and therefore mete to judge: The Roman Church is a party, and therefore not fit to bear witness, & much less to judge in this cause. Our Savior Christ affirmeth that if he should have had no testimony but frō him self, his witness should not have ben true, & therefore willeth thē in the same chapter, to search the scriptures, for they (saith he) bear witness of me. You testify of your selfs alone, applealing always unto your own church, which as you say cannot err, & therefore your witness (by the testimony of our savior Christ) is found not to be true. Whereunto agreeth Chryso. his words are these. Venit Montanus dicens: Spiritum sanctū habeo: venit Manichoeus, dicens, spiritum Sanctum habeo: nō fuit autem manifestum, vt igitur ne plures nomine seducerentur, quoniam inuisibiliter donum venturum erat, dicit: Quando venerit Paracletus spiritus veritatis qui a patre procedit, ill vos memores faciet verborum meorum, & inducet vos in omnem veritatem: nō enim a semetipso loquetur. Nam si quem videritis dicentē Spiritum sanctum habeo: & non loquentem euangelica, sed propria, is a seipso loquitur, & non est spiritus sanctus in ipso. Sicut enim dicit de seipso, ego a meipso non loquor: vt soluat suspicionem deceptionis, imo errorem a veritate separet: ita vt ostendat quinam habent spiritum sanctum, & qui non habent, sed simulant se habere: a me audistis quid tradidi. Quando veniet inuisibilis spiritus mea loquetur. Si videritis aliquem euangelica repetentem, profecto spiritum sanctū habet, veniet enim spiritus sanctus, vt recordari vos faciat eodum quae docui. Si quis igitur eorum qui dicuntur habere spiritū sanctū, dicat aliquid a seipso, & non ex Euangeliis, non credit. Montanus and Manichaeus two heretics, came & affirmed that they had the holy Ghost: therefore our Savior Christ least moe should be seduced by that name, for as much as the gift was invisible and not to be seen, saith, when the holy Ghoste the spirit of truth shall come, he shall bring my words unto your remembrance, and shall lead you into all truth. For he shall not speak of himself. For if you see any mā that saith, I have the holy Ghost, and speaketh not out of the Gospel, but out of himself, he speaketh of himself, and the Holy Ghost is not in him. For as our Savior Christ said of himself, I speak not of myself, that thereby he might take away all suspicion of deceit: Nay rather that he might put a plain difference between truth and error: in like manner that he might declare who they be, that have the holy Ghoste, and who have him not, he saith: ye have heard of me, what I have delivered, to wit: that when the invisible Spirit shall come, he shall speak of me. If ye shall see any man confirming his cause by the Gospel, that man hath the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost shall come that he may bring to your memories, such things as I have taught. Therefore if any of them who are said to have the holy Ghost, speak any things of thenselfs, & not out of the Gospel, beeleue them not. Consider I pray you, that Chrysostom will have the holy Ghost discerned to be in mē (by this mark) of speaking not of thenselfs, but out of the word and Gospel of God. Your church therefore which standeth especially upon this point: We are the church & therefore cannot err: hath not the holy Ghost: for the holy Ghost appealeth not to himself. And if to speak out of the word of God, be the true note of the spiri • of God, and as he saith a plain distinctiō between error & truth: then need we not inquire from what place or people he cometh, as if he were only bound to them that had antiquity & consent to allege for their Religion: but are to content us with this (as the true note) to wit that the spirit of God doeth not speak of himself, but out of the word and Gospel of God. Our charge is not given us from god, to make iniquisition from what people he cometh, but with what voice he speaketh. For if he speak of himself, that is, if he justify not that which he saith by the Gospel of god, he is a deceiver, what antiquity & consent soever be alleged for him. And therefore Chrysost. in the same place, immediately after the words now alleged, speaking against the heretic Manichaeus, saith thus: Vbi legisti haec? ex quo non legit haec scripta, sed a seipso loquitur, manifestum est quod non habet spiritum sanctum. Where hast thou read these things? seeing that he readeth not these things in the scripture, but speaketh of himself, it is manifest that he hath not the holy Ghost. Would to god that you & such as you are, who bind the truth, & therefore the holy Ghost the spirit of truth, unto antiquity, succession of Bishopps, & consent of people: grounding your Religion thereupon: would carefully consider of the judgment, not only of Chrysostom, but of Christ himself: thereby to discern who they be, that have the spirit of god, and who have him not: then should you clearly se that he is to be discerned by his speech, & neither by his years, nor yet by the great train & multitude of mē w ^t follow after him, & least of all by the order that they observe in following one another. His speech doeth so plainly bewray him, that Chrysostom is not afraid to say, it is a manifest matter, not subject to any exception, that if any read not out of the written word that which they teach other, those same have not the holy Ghost. For the holy Ghost which was promised, was promised to be such a one, as should not speak of himself, but appeal unto the Gospel and word of God for his warrant. Any man therefore may clearly se, howe justly we challenge that Spirit that speaketh in your Church not to be the holy Ghost, for he appealeth to himself, his Councils and Doctors, making us believe that there is no certainty in the word, and therefore no safe testimony to be had from thence: not driving us to the Scriptures, there to inquire after him: but pulinge us from thence unto the Church, because she cannot (as he saith) be deceived. The speeches of your Spirit are these: Thus believeth the Church, which cannot err, this is confirmed by councils and warranted by Doctors: This hath for it antiquity, universality and consent. The voice of the holy Ghoste is this: have you not read in your law? it is written of me in the volume of the book: the scripture must be fulfilled: it is thus written. Now if the holy Ghost must have the scriptures to testify and speak for him, not being allow • to speak of himself as binding mē therefore to receive him because he cannot err: surely your privilege is mōstruously great, to have that liberty & credit in your own cause to speak of yourself, which is not granted unto the holy Ghost himself. I would be resolved of this one thing by you, why our Savior Christ should put himself upon the Scriptures for his trial being head of the Church: and you taking yourselves for menbers thereof, yet refuse it. If you think you should offer yourselves wrong because you only have the true sense of the Scripture, remember that then our Savior Christ having the true understanding of the word, did offer injury unto himself in puttinge himself upon the Sciptures, dealing with these men, who had not the true sense thereof, because they were not of the church, which is the pillar of truth. If you say it is not the safest way to persuade, and therefore you send them to the church as unto a safer way: consider that in so doing you charge our savior Christ with unfaithful dealing, who hath not sent them to tha • trial of the church, which could not fail • but lead them unto him: but chose rathe • to send them to that trial of the Scripture • which (as you think) may be drawn thi • way and that way, and therefore not without great danger to deceive. It cannot be avoided but that both our savior Christ must offer himself wrong (if your assertion be true) in putting himself upon y ^e scriptures, to them who had not the true sense of the scripture: And also deal unfaithfully in his fathers house, in suppressinge that which were the best able to lead them into all truth: and sending them to that which could not but deceive them, they not having the true sense thereof. I do therefore much marvel howe you can satisfy your own conscience, in groundinge your faith and persuading yourself touching religion, to rest safely wheresoerver you shall find a noneber of people professing religion, who of long time together with a great number have observed the same: seeing that our Savior Christ never used any such reason to persuade them w ^t were enemies unto truth. Dare you challenge such wisdom unto yourself, as to have found out a wiser way to induce men unto the truth, or to continue them therein, then the only wise God hath practiced? Or dare you charge him w ^t unfaithfulness, in concealing that manner of reasoning & persuading, w ^c is most able to prevail? Or dare you leauinge out his manner of persuasion, use another and yet promise unto yourself the best success thereby? As for his manner of perswadinge men unto the Gospel, and howe it differed from the seducers and false teachers that went before him, may appear plainly out of the scriptures. Which thing is well observed by Chrysostom in these words. Venerunt igitur illi falsi Christi, & non docuerunt ex lege & Prophetis, sed ex seipsis loquuti sunt & ex propria sententia: Saluator venit, & non discessit à lege, non discessit a Prophetis, sed dicebat quasi in exemplo been dixit Isaiah, Et iterum, Nonne scriptū est in lege vestra? Et eum accederet ad eum diabolus dicit, Dominum Deum tuum adorabis & illi soli seruies. There came false Christ's (saith Chrysost. ) & they taught not out of the law & prophets, but spake of them selfs: Our Savior Christ came, & he went not from the law, he went not frō the Prophets, but said (to give it you in example) Well spoke the Prophet Isaiah. And again. Is it not written in your law? And when the devil came unto him, he said unto him. It is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. We have here that manner of persuasion w ^t our Savior Christ took to be the best, and therefore practiced the same: and not only that, but (as Chrysostom saith) he was discerned therein, frō the false Prophets which went before him. We may see also in this practice of our savior Christ, a plain confutatiō of your strongest reason, which moveth you to fly frō the scriptures unto fathers, Doctors, and the church. You were wont to say if one allege scriptures for his purpose, and another holdinge a contrary opinion, shall likewise bring in scriptures to vphoulde his judgment: how shall the truth be tried but by the writings and expositions of fathers upon these places? Here you see that Satan would persuade his purpose by scriptures, our Savior Christ flieth not for defense unto the Church, alleging the writings of the learned Jews, and the expositions of the Rabbin's upon that place, but by another place of scripture, beateth out the true sense & meaning of that which was misaleaged by Satan: to wit, that he might so hope for help and defense from God, as that he stood bound nevertheless to use such means as the Lord should give into his hands, because it was written in another place of Scripture, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God; which he should have done, if having means to go down safely, he should for all that have cast himself headlonge off the pinnacle, in hope that the Lord would not suffer him to dashe his foot against a stone. You may see that the scripture hath in itself sufficient light, to clear and make plain the dark places of herself: And therefore they ar justly charged to be infected with a most dangerous heresy, who persuade & maintain a great doubtfulness and obscurity to be in the word, thereby to shun the reproufe of their religion & conuersatiō: according as Irenaeus testifieth in his third book. Haeretici, cùm ex Scriptures arguuntur, in accusationē cōuertuntur ipsarum scripturarum, quasi non recte habeant ne{que} fint ex authoritate: & quasi vary sint dictae: & quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciant tradition̄. Heretics whē they are reproved by the scriptures, they return an accusatiō against the scriptures, as if they were not of sufficient authority, and as if they were doubtful & diuersty to be taken & expounded: & that the truth could not be found out by the scriptures, of those men which know not y ^e traditiō. These are the very speeches of your Church at this day against the scriptures, that the scripture hath no right title and sufficient authority to decide controversies, & discern spirits, because it is but a dead letter, & that one place may be taken in diverse & sundry senses, & that the true sense cannot be had but only in your church, because it knoweth the tradition, that is in what sense the fathers have delivered it unto thē. I have told you already that it was the practice of our Savior christ, to appeal unto the scriptures rather thē unto the church: so consider I pray you, that we find it in the scriptures, that the wicked & ungodly have appealed rather to the Church, then to the Scriptures: reasoning as you do, that they were of the Church and therefore could not be deceived: And thereupon have taken liberty, not only to neglect the word brought by the true Prophet of God, but also to persecute the bringer. For thus speak the Jews against Jeremiah: Come and let us imagyne some deuyse against Jeremiah, for the law shall not perish from the Priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the Prophet: Come and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give hede unto any of his words. You may see that upon this ground that the law could not perish from the Priest, nor the word from the Prophet, which is this in effect, that the Church could not err: they take liberty to fight against the truth, and true Church of God, and not to regard the words of the true Prophet of God.

Assertion.

1. In her is unity of Doctrine and Sacraments.

2. In her is holiness and perfection of a Christian life, practiced, used, and exercised, as devout seruinge of God both day and night, chastity of life, almesse deeds, fastings and other afflictions to bring the rebellious body in subjection to the spirit, buildinge of Churches, universities, Colleges, Hospitals for the poor, lending of money for charity and not for usury, and a continual remembrance as well for the living as for the dead.

3. In her there is a continual succession as well of Bishops as of doctrine, from the Apostles time even unto this.

4. In her is universality of faith doctrine and Religion.

Answeare.

YOu make iiii. notes or marks of the true church whereby she is to be known & discerned. The first for that she is at unity within hir self, both touching hir doctrine and Sacraments. The second because the fruits of holiness and true righteousness abound in hir. The third in that she hath the Apostles doctrine delivered into her hands, by a continual succession of Bishops, frō the Apostles time unto the end of the world, for I think that is your meaning, albeit your words warrant succession of Bishops and Doctrine no longer than unto this time. The fourth, because her faith Doctrine and religion is universal. Because you bring forth proofs afterward (such as they be) for the strengthening of your opinion touching these marks & notes of the church: the answer thereunto shall sufficiently teache us what to think of this that you have said, and in what sense and meaning, or with what caution and condition, these are to be received as marks of the Church.

Assertion.

For the first. God saith by his Prophet Jeremiah. Dabo eis cor vnum & viā vnam. For the same Christ also prayed to his father. As thou and I are one in deity, so grant that such as are mine may be one in concord. Which as you may read in the Acts was granted him of his said father: For there was in the primitive Church, Cor vnum, & anima vna: Saint Paul also prayed for the same, saying: Deus pacientiae & solatij det vobis id ipsum • appear in alterutrum, secūdum Iesum Christum, vt vnanimes vno ore honorificetis Deū & Patrem Domini nostri Jesus Christi. Et • ibi: obsecro vt idipsum dicatis omnes, & • on sint in vobis Schismata. Therefore I conclude that where discord & division is in matters of faith, there cannot be the church of Christ: unless you will affirm that god hath not performed his said promise made by Jeremiah, neither that the father heard the said prayer of his son for the unity of the Church: And that Saint August. was greatly deceived, who saith that in Cathedra vnitatis, est doctrina veritatis.

Answeare.

TO prove that in the church is Unity of doctrine & sacraments, you allege out of the Prophet these words: Dabo eis cor vnum & viam vnam. I will give them one heart and one way. I hope you have read the chapter, and therefore do remember that this people whom he promiseth to bring again out of captivity, & then to give them one heart and one way: had already a kind of unity and consent among them: for the Prophet in this same chapter affirmeth, that the Princes Prophets Priests and people had consented to turn their backs upon the Lord, and had set their Idols in the house whervpō his name was called. And this their unity and agreement in such corrupt doctrine & worship of God, was the cause why the Lord (as he had decreed to punish them by giving them over into the hands of the Chaldeans ) even so did execute the same decree in deed, And yet not so, but that he promiseth afterward in his time to bring them home again to their own land: and then to give them one heart and one way to fear him, and to plant sincere Religion & the true fear of god among them. You may see by this place, that there is no true unity but in verity and truth, because the Lord speaketh unto this people, who had great agreement in their corruption touching the service of God: as if they had been at deadly dissention: saying, I will give them one heart and one way. Your doctrine is not the verity, as God willing shall be plainly proved when I come to that place, and therefore your agreement howe great soever, is the most dangerous division that can be, for that it is sundered from the truth of Christ and his Gospel. I conclude therefore against you with this testimony, that because you have not the verity with you, therefore you have no unity among you. For this place plainly proveth, that it is true doctrine and religion, which maketh men to be of one heart and one way, in so much that the Lord when he promiseth to restore sincere worship and service of God, saith, I will give them one heart and one way. Our harts & ways do newer grow unto any unity in deed, before they be established in true Religion: but be so variable, that we may be led by the crafty wiliness of men, from one error into another without any stop or stay. For in so many gross corruptions as have entered into your church one after another, & one more corrupt then another: some whereof the most of you now (since the late reviving of the Gospel) begin t • blush at: which of you ever before this time did once stand against any of them • Your ready consent to every of them without gainsaying, declareth that if there had been as many moe of no less corruption, you should for all that have had no powe • to have withstood them. And no marvel, for we do never make any stay before we come to the knowledge of sincere religion, which when it entereth beginneth to make us afraid of corruption even in the least things that have no warrant from the truth of God. If you give any credit to the Prophet in this place, you may never speak of unity, without restraininge it to truth and verity. And therefore you may see howe your first witness reproveth your judgment touching Unity, without any mention of verity and truth. I trust you will give me good leave to deal by way of demand with you, so longe as I have no other meaning, then in this our disputation of unity, to set you and your witness at one. Tell me therefore I pray you at your convenient leisure, if this people of Israel to whom he saith he will give one heart & one way, were not the church of god (albeit there were great corruptions among them in the service of god) where the church was at that time? And if you say they were the Church, then answer me howe these two hang together, that the Lord promiseth in the time to come, and after their return to give them one heart and one way, which is (as you say) meant of unity, whereas you are of opinion that there is no true Church, if there be not already unity among them. And therefore have not only made it a mark, but the first mark of the church. I long to hear from you of some good agreement made between you and your witness.

Your second testimony for Unity is taken out of the Gospel after Saint John. It is the prayer of our Savior Christ unto his father for his elect. These are the words. Pater saencte serua eos per nomē tuū, quos dedisti mihi, vt sint vnum, prout & nos. Holy father save them by thy name, whom thou hast given unto me, that they may be one as we are. You shall spare me, albeit I receive not your expositione seeing that our savior christ hath opened his own meaning, for he himself doeth more plainly declare this matter in this same chapter when he prayeth that this may be granted unto all that shall by the Apostles doctrine be brought to believe in him: Vt omnes vnum sint sicut tu pater in me, & ego in te, vt & ipsi in nobis vnum sint: that all may he one as thou father in me and I in the, so they in us may be one. He prayeth not simply for agreement, but with addition, that they may be one and at agreement in God the father & in Christ, & remain one in them, which is performed when the truth of his word is truly embraced and followed, for then are we said to be in him, as appeareth in the xv. of this Gospel. Si manseritis in me, & verba mea, in vobis manserint: (saith our Savior Christ) declaringe that this is to abide united unto him, when his word abideth in us. Likewise in the second to the Colossians, after that he hath told them that all the treasures of wisdom & knowledge are hid in Christ, and therefore willeth them, as they have • eceiued Christ Jesus, so they should • alke in him: forthwith he warneth them • o take heed that no man deceive them • y Philosophy, according to the tradi • ions of men, & not according unto Christ, • eclaring that this is not to be in Christ, • either to walk in him, whē we walk af • er the traditions of men, and remain not • nited unto him, and at one w ^t him in his word. Prooue unto us then, that you are one in God the father, & in Christ, by be • ng united unto the truth of their doctrine, and that you remain in them, by having their words remaining in you: and thē we will make good reckoning of such an agre • meant. But seeing the contrary is apparent, we affirm out of this place, that the prayer of our Savior Christ, is not verified in you, that you should abide one in them, because their words and doctrine abide not in you.

Besides this you are to be put in remembrance, that albeit our Savior Christ prayed for unity, that it might, be granted unto his disciples to be one, yet that proveth not that without imperfection they did enjoy it, for he prayeth in like manner in the same Chapter for the faithful, that they might be delivered from evil, Now who knoweth not, that his be greatly subject to evil, whether you understand it of outward or inward evils, spiritual or temporal, as we call them, and yet notwithstanding that prayer was heard for them as well as this. I say therefore, that as the Church is void of evil, so is it of dissention and variance, and as it is troubled notwithstanding this prayer with evil and oftentimes giveth great offense by falling into the same: So is it in like manner with discord and dissention. These speeches therefore which be absolute in them selves are by the judgment of the Learned, to be limited according to that measure which is granted unto man to attain unto, and not absolutely to be pressed as you do.

You allege moreover for proof of your assertion, out of the Acts of the Apostles that there was in the primitive Church vnum Cor & vna anima, One heart and one mind. It is true that there was great agreement in that people, which was as it were the first fruits of the spirit of God, and of the Apostles doctrine and labors: and such an agreement as Churches planted after by the Apostles themselves had not the like, as it is apparent in the Church of Corinth, and yet a true Church, and so called and accounted of by the Apostle Paul. There was such unity of affection among them, that they liberally employed their goods one upon another, as necessity required, and albeit the unity of mind and affection which they had among them selves was very great, yet it was not so universal, as that it did admit no exception of any particulars, for we read immediately after of two Annanias and Sapphira: that were not so single hearted toward their brethren as the rest, and therefore received punishment accordingly. But I pray you mark that it is said there Multitudinis credentiū, erat cor vnum & anima vna: They were faithful and believers of the word of God, and not servants and slaves to the traditions of men, that had this Veritie among them. Unity therefore is in this place (as before) restrained unto verity and truth. So that if you look for any help from hence you are to prove the truth of your doctrine, before you bring in the unity of your affections. But let this be granted, what have you said for yourself? ye have brought for proof one example, if you had brought many of these, a Logiciā would have answered you, that examples prove nothing, & what exceptions may be taken against your one example? was there not murmuring & complaing immediately after, among this number, y ^t are said there to be of one heart & mind, for that the Grecians their widows were not provided for, and thereupon a new order taken for their better provision? and were not two of this number, whose hearts were said to be one, hunted out from among the rest, and made a Spectacle of the justice of God against dissimulation? Moreover howe can an example how true soever at the beginning and for some little time, become a rule to bind all men for all times? Now the danger of division is greater as experience doeth tell us in the continuance and increase of the Church, then at the first planting and building of the same, so that an example of unity in the Church long continued and increased, had been more forcible and fit to induce us, then this of the Church newly planted.

The place alleged out of the Romans exhorteth us to bear one with the infirmities of another, to receive them are the weaker sort, not to disdain them, or cast them of in their weakness and infirmities: remembering well how Christ hath received us in our wants. If he speak of Unity in doctrine and Sacraments in this place as you say, his prayer for it, doeth rather argue a want to be as yet in thē of the thing, then to import any present possession thereof. For we are not wont to pray for the things we have already, and you know your Assertion maintaineth that unity can never be sundered from the Church because it is a special note and badge thereof. The authority out of the Epistle to the Corinthes is directly against your Assertion, for there were (as he affirmeth in that chapter) Sectes and Schisms amongst them, one holding of Paul, another of Apollo, which he prayeth may be stayed & no more hard of amongst thē. There being then sects and schisms amongst thē, and yet notwithstanding he giving them the name and title of the Church, as appeareth in the beginning of that Chapter: proveth that every division by and by taketh not away the name of the Church from those that are so divided. To be brief, that place which inferreth a division to have been in a Church, it notwithstanding remaining still a church: is but a weak ground to prove that Unity is an infallible note and mark of the Church.

You conclude with Augustine in his epistle one hundred sixty six. For you have mistaken the mumber, it is not as you quoat it. There are not many words aledged out of him, and yet they are not all truly alleged, howbeit you have most of all swerved from his meaning, I will therefore set you down his words both before and after. His at{que} aliis similitudinibus Dominus seruorum suorum tollerātiam confirmauit, ne dum se boni putant malorū permixtione culpari, per humanas & temerarias dissensiones aut paruulos perdant, aut paruuli pereant, quod us{que} adeo coelestis magister cauendum praemonuit, vt etiā de praepositis malis plebem securā faceret, ne propter illos doctrinae salutaris cathedra desereretur, in qua coguntur etiam mali bona dicere, neque enim sua sunt quae, dicunt, sed Dei, qui in Cathedra vnitatis doctrinā posuit veritatis, de praepositis suis mala facientibus, & dei dona dicentibus ait: quae dicunt, facite: quae autem faciunt facere nolite. Augustine in this Epistle defendeth y ^e church against the Donatists who charged it to be defiled w ^t the wickedness of some evil men, w ^t whō it did communicate, and that in communicating with those evil men in the Sacraments, they were made partakers of their sins. He useth certain similitudes taken out of the Scripture, to confirm a toleration of evil manners, when without danger they cannot be reformed, showing the danger of rash division, how strong it is to overthrow the weak, and that the Lord hath forewarned us to take heed of this rash deviding of our selves from the Church, because of the evil life of some: in that he warranteth the people against the evil manners of their guides and Teacher • , in as much as he commandeth then to hear their doctrine, but not to follow their example of life and conversation. For evil men saith he are compelled by the working of God to speak good things, neither are they their own, but the matters of God which they do utter, who hath placed the doctrine of truth even in that chair, where there is unity with evil manners. Therefore the truth himself of guides doing evil, but saying that which God hath given thē, saith, do as they say, but do not as they do. This is the unity that Aug. speaketh of, which is to be restrained to the matter he hath in hand, to wit, that the evil life of some in the church, is no sufficient cause to make a division from that church. For if it had, the Lord would not have moved us to hear those, and to do as they say. And yet which is more, he doeth forewarn us to beware of diuidinge our selfs rashly from such, in that he compelleth oftentimes men of evil life, to deliver good and sound doctrine unto his people, and hath got a place for his truth out of that chair, where they do sit who are at unity with evil manners. If we were departed from your church, only because of your evil life, findinge no fault with your doctrine, you might reply with Augustine, & say unto us: In cathedra vnitatis posuit doctrinam veritatis: He hath placed true doctrine in their mouths, who in their life are at unity with evil conversation. But your doctrine is at deadly debate with the truth of God his word, and therefore we have a Christian quarrel against you, not for life only, but especially for evil Doctrine, and the Lord I doubt not shall in his time revenge us of you, by killing the error which is within you. I conclude therefore against you by your own testimonies, that unity simply as you have set it down is no note of the church, but Unity wit • additiō [of truth and Verity.] I conclude • also against you by your own witness, tha • there is no such Unity required in doctrine, as to exclude frō the church all thos • that are at any kind of variety, touching any point of Doctrine within themselves We say of variety in that doctrine which toucheth not the foundation of Religion, yea albeit the article itself shall touche th • foundation, when yet notwithstanding th • controversy is not about the heart and principal part thereof: as Augustine saith o • the diversity of observations in the church • Sit ergo vna Fides vniuersae, quae vbi{que} dilatatur Ecclesiae, tanquā intus in membris, etiā si ipsa fidei vnitas, quibusdam diuersis obseruationibus celebratur, quibus nullo modo quod in fide verū est impeditur: omnis enim pulchritudo Filiae Regis intrinsecus: illae autē obseruationes quae vary celebrantur, in eius vest intelliguntur, vnde illi dicitur in fimbrijs aurets circumamicta varietate. Al the beauty of the king his daughter which signifieth the church, is as August. saith inward, but her outward garments are of • iuers colors, to declare that variety whe • her in doctrine or cerimonies, so it be in • he garment, not piercing the heart & bowels of Religion, cannot take away the beauty of the church which is altogether inward. As for you that will acknowledge no church where there is any variety in doctrine, I can prove unto you, not only that your church hath had diversity & dissension in doctrine, but also that you have been at contention about such pointes of doctrine, as shake the very pillars & grounds of Religion. Wherein lest you should think that I would allege the authority of some that were partial in my behalf, I am contented to be tried by Matthew Paris, a Mōke of S. Albōs. who in the chronicle that he writeth doth declare, that in the year of our Lord, 1243. which was the xxvii. yere of the reign of Henry the third, then King of this Realm of England, there was great controversy between the fryers and the University of Paris, because that the friers taught in pulpittes, & maintained in public lectures, these opinions following.

That the divine essence was not th • same altogether in the holy Ghost, tha • it was in the father, & in the son: whic • plainly upholdeth an inequality o • persons contrary to the Christian faith •

That the holy Ghost, as he is love, proceedeth from the father only, & not als • from the son: whereas the Christian belief holdeth that he procedet • from them both.

That neither the soul nor the body shall be after the resurrection in that heavē where the Angels are, but in another above the firmament.

That the evil Angel in his first creation was evil and never good: which opinion chargeth the Lord of necessity to be the Author of evil.

That an Angel in one instant may be in diverse places, and everywhere if he will: which opiniō intituleth the Angels unto that which is only proper to God.

That Adam had never such a state of innocence, as that he might have stood and not have fallen frō the obedience of God. which opinion doth overthrow the Justice of God.

That he that hath more help of nature, • hall of necessity have more grace and greater glory. This opinion utterly over • hroweth all the doctrine of the free mercies in Christ, of mortification, and regeneration. These opinions being once broached and publicly maintained in the Schools, the Doctors of Paris (as there was great cause why) did stoutly resist and stand against them, setting down their judgment unto every article severally in this form of words. Hunc errorem prohibemus, & assertores eius & defensores excommunicamus. We forbid this error, & the mainteyners and defenders thereof we do excommunicate. You can never prove that the greatest controversy that ever was or is at this day amongst us, was so material and did so nerely touche the foundation of religion as doth the least of these. And therefore when you write again, let us not I pray you hear of any exclamation against the division that is amongst us as you say touching Doctrine: unless you will set down some particulars, and let the world see that you deal plainly & simply, and are able to prove indeed tha • which in general terms you would seem • to carry away. I am well assured that there • was never any such dangerous opinions professed in our schools; or contended for among the learned that professed the Gospel at any time, whereof in degree of error i • might truly be said that they were matches & equal unto these. And if you continue never so longe in seeking monuments & records, yet shall you not find the like among us.

Assertion.

For the second the Prophet saith, Domum tuam decet sanctitudo Domine in longitudinē dierum. Templum Dei sanctum est, quod estis vos (inquit Christus.) Media nocte surgebam ad confitendum tibi (inquit Propheta.) Some saith Christ geld thenselves for the kingdom of heavē that is to say, by fasting, by prayer, & other afflictions. Castigo corpus meum inquit Paulus, & in seruitatē redigo, &c. To Judith after her notable & victorious act to her comēdation it was said. Confortatum est cor tuū eo quod castitatē amaueris. Bona est oratio inquit Tobias cum ieiunto & eleemosina, • his kind of devils, saith Ch • ist, meaning • as the Doctors say, ) the spirits of forni • ation are not cast out but by fasting & • rayer. Sic luceat lux vestra coram homi • ibus, vt videant opera vestra bona, inquit Christus, ex fructibus eorum cognoscetis eos • nquit Christus. Mutuum date nihil, inde • perantes inquit idem Christus. Sancta & • alubris est cogitatio pro defunctis exorare vt a poenis soluantur dicit Scriptura. The which though the Jews did never receive no more than they did the Gospel of John, yet the church hath and doeth receive both for canonical scriptures. Vt patet in the third general council of Charthage, where Saint Augustine was present. Qui dicit quod Machabaeorum libros non Iudaei sed Ecclesia pro Canonicis habet. Which also is affirmed in the Canons of the Apostles. The which church is to be preferred before the Jews synagogue, to whom Christ hath promised the continual assistance of his holy spirit, Propheta teste dicente diligit Dominus portas Syō super omnia tabernacula Jacob. Magna erit gloria domus istius nouissimae, plusquam primae: dicit dominus. In the primitive church they used prayer for the souls departed, which was the traditiō of the Apostles, as witnesseth Dionysius Areopagita, S. Paul his scholar, & so witnesseth also S. Chrysostom. Non frustra ab Apostolis sancitum est, vt in celebratione venerandorum mysteriorum memoria fiat eorū, qui hinc decesserunt: nouerunt illis hinc multum emolumenti fieri multum vtilitatis. Habet inquit August. ecclesiastica disciplina, quod fideles nouerunt cum Martyrs eo loco recitantur ad altare dei, vt non pro ipsis oretur, pro caeteris autem commemoratis defunctis oretur. S. August. praying for his mothers soul Monica saith in his prayers made to God thus, as it appeareth in the eleuēth chapter of his nienth book of his confessions, declaring how she did not desire to be costly buried. These were not the things (saith he) that she anything required us, but only desired us to have her in remembrance at thine Alter, to the which she had been accustomed no day missing to do service, from which she well knew that holy sacrifice to be dispensed, by which the obligation that made against us was cancelled, &c. In the primitive Church they built Churches, they erected altars, and offered sacrifices thereupon, which was a sure token and argument of the true faith of Christ: as Chrysost. writeth. Now such as in words and acts inueygh against & contemn the said good works both profitable for the quick and the dead, seem to me to be no more members of the primitive Church, than they be of our Catholic Church, at this day. And I pray ye judge which are Christ his folk by his own rule abovesaid, that is to say, by their fruits, and consider by the monuments of our forefathers left behind them, whether they were Illa arbor bona, which brought forth good fruit.

Answeare.

ECclesia est sancta. Another note to discern the Church by, is Holines: for the Church is the temple of God, & therefore not profane, but holy, as it is written. Be ye holy for I am holy. This sanctification and holiness we have not by nature, but by grace. The paths of godliness and true holiness, are descried by the word of God, our natural wit judgeth not aright thereof. The word of God as it doth discover the right way and declare what works be acceptable to GOD, so it doeth by exhortation quicken and stir us up thereunto, and therefore our Saui-Christ in the prayer that he made to his father for the Church, hath these words: Sanctifica eos veritate tua sermo tuus veritas est. Sanctify them with thy truth, thy word is truth. And in the Epistle to the Ephesians this word Truth is joined with righteousness and holiness, as a mark to distinguish between true and counterfeit works. His words are these Induite nouum hominem, qui secundum deum creatus est in iustitia & sanctitate veritatis. Put on the new man which is created after God in righteousness & holiness of truth, or in righteousness and true holiness. And in the next Chapter the Apostle likewise coupleth the truth with goodness & righteousness. Vt filij lucis incedite, nam fructus, spiritus situs est in omni bonitate, et iustitia, & veritate, probantes quid sit acceptum domino. Our Savior Christ saith, iam vos puri estis propter sermonem quem loquutus sum vobis. Now you are holy by reason of the word that I have spoken unto you. The tree must be good before the fruit be good: we must be sanctified with the truth before we can bring forth fruits of true sāctification and holiness. As for your church she hideth the word of truth, the holy scriptures, from the people in an unknown tongue, and maintaineth works doene of a good intent, which the Scripture condemneth, when they have no warrant frō the word. Your fruits therefore may seem fair to the eye, but to the cast & trial they cannot be good, because you are not good tres yourselves: good trees you are not, because you want the sap of y ^e truth & word of God and are fed with inventions and traditions of men, and your own good intents and devotions. I know you look that I should prove this out of the Fathers, to wit, that we must have in us the good seed of the word, before we can bring forth good works acceptable to God, and that it is required that we our selves should be good, before we bring forth good fruit. Wherefore I am to require you, to consider what Chrysostom writeth of this matter. Offendes equidem multos, qui quamuis sermonem veritatis non acceperint, & foris sint, operibus tamen pietatis, vt apparet, sunt conspicui. Inuenies viros misericordes, compatientes, iustitiae vacantes: sed nullos facientes fructus operum, quia nescierint opus veritatis. Thou shalt find many, who although they have not received the word of truth, but are without, yet notwithstanding are, as it appeareth, famous for their good works: thou shalt find men merciful, full of compassion, given to upright dealing, but for all that, bringing forth no fruits, but leaves of works, because they be ignorant of the work of truth. Unto him agreeth Jerome. his words are these. Quia haec mandata sunt nobis, vt ponamus corda nostra in vus nostris, ascendamus in montem rationabilem: & ad singula problemata congrua de testimoniis Scripturarum ligna quaerentes, praecedamus ea, & aedificemus domum sapientiae in nobis: postquam enim haec fuerit extructa, finis aedificationis eius, erit, vt dominus glorificetur in nobis. Because these things are given us in commandment, that we should set our hearts upon our ways, let us go up unto the mountain of wisdom, and for every doubt seeking fit wood out of the testimonies of the Scriptures: let us cut it down, and build a house of wisdom within us, for after that shall once be built, the end of that building shall be, that the Lord may be glorified in us. And upon the second chapter he speaketh yet more plainly upon this matter. Possumus dicere frustra aliquos munera offerre Deo, & eleemosynis atque oblationibus putare Deum posse placari: cum ipsi non extruxerint in se templū spiritui sancto, tunc enim {pro}sūt eleemosynae & munera quae offeruntur in altari, cū seipsum quis aedificauerit tēplū dei et post aedificationē tēpli, dona obtulerit in altari. We may say that these men do offer gifts in vain to God, and think that God will be pacified with alms and offerings, when they have not built in themselves a Temple for the holy Ghost. For then are alms acceptable & gifts which are offered upon the altar, when a man hath first built himself the temple of God, & after the building of the Temple, shall offer gifts upon the altar. This word of God which is the wood appointed for the building of the Temple of God, you are nothing acquainted withal, you are not often conversant in the profitable reading and hearing thereof, and therefore no marvel if neither your faith be grounded upon the promises in the word, nor your direction for good works be taken out of the Law of God, but follow custom and your own devotion, to guide you unto that which you trust upon, and to those works which you were wont to do. As before you learned out of the scriptures: so now you perceive by the fathers that no man can offer an acceptable gift unto God, before there be a temple of God, and the matter that maketh us the temple of God, is not found in our own deuotiō, but only to be had in the written word of God. Order therefore would that before you had told us of the sacrifices & offerings to be made, you had admonished us of the building of that Temple, where the sacrifice must be offered if it be acceptable unto God. You should have told us that we • ut of the comforts and promises of the word, were first to be made living unto God, and then to have required of us good works the testimonies of this life. I see no difference between this your teaching of works & theirs who are Ethnics & heathen men, for they have required and practiced many good works, before they them selves through faith in the word were made good and acceptable unto God. Learn therefore if you will not of the scriptures, yet of the fathers, to be come a Temple made of that wood which he hath appointed, before you make any great account of the good deeds & oblations w ^t you do offer unto him. Now let us see your fruits and go •• works. The fruits of sanctification and holiness you make chastity of life, alms deeds, fastings, building of Churches, Universities, Colleges, Hospitalles, lending of money for charity and not for usury, and prayer for the dead. I have with some diligence perused the xi. chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, where I see the good works and fruits of the best men, for the which they have got them an everlasting remembrance by the testimony of the spirit of God, and are set forth as patterns and examples of true obedience. I find there no mention of many of these which you do set forth as the principal works, but great commendation of others which you have not so much as once named. I do find there great commendation of one Abraham the father of the faithful, a great rich man, not for building of Churches, Hospitalles, or Colleges, but for leaving his friends, and country, going out from among them, at the commandment of the Lord, not knowing where to become. We are able to show you many such g • od works among us. For diverse in this land of great wealth, have in the late days of Queen Mary for their conscience sake, in iustifing the cause of his Gospel, and therefore at his cōmandemenr, left friends, lands, goods, and country, not knowing where to become. I do read there of one Moses, a mild and merciful man by the testimony of the holy Ghost, commended not for lending of money without taking interest, or building of Hospitalles for poor and impotent men, neither yet for merciful remembrance (as ye do count it) of the dead in his prayers: but for that he refused to be called the son of Pharaoh his daughter, and chose rather to suffer adversity with the people of god, thā to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season. And if this be a good work we can show you many of these. Peruse that chapter, consider the men there mentioned, you shall find that they were of the best. Examine the fruits of their faith, their good deeds, & compare thē with the most of these that you have recited, & do require. Note the variety. Mark howe many of yours ye can find registered there, that is a true calendar of Christian works, they are no counterfaits, they cā not but keep weight, for they are currant by the law of God.

Blame me not if I do require your careful consideration hereof, for the diversity of these Spirits may not lightly be let pass. The one sauereth of the earth so doeth not the other. For if a worldly man that was never brought up in the school of Christ, be asked his judgment between the good deed of that man who doeth build a College, and of another who leaveth his country with Abraham at the commandment of God: he will prefer that of buildinge a College far above the other, as being a visible monument that contineweth forever, commodious to many: full of glory in the judgment almost of every man: whereas the memory of the other passeth away with the deed done, commodious (as commodity is measured in worldly respects) unto none, subject unto the mislikinge of an infinite number. And as concerning all those deeds that you do reckon up in form and manner as you do them, wicked men have practiced thē all, & men that never heard of the Gospel would if comparison were made, prefer them before these which are registered by the holy Ghost, as the best deeds of the best men. Yours would weigh more with worldly minded men. And therefore we may safely say that they are of th' earth & not from above, for the world loveth and liketh her own. My meaning is not to speak against or to mislike in any respect, buildinge of Colleges Hospitals & churches, when they proceed of a heart purified by faith, & therefore seeking the glory of god & not his own therein, & be ordained for the aduauncinge of God his word & true worship, not to the maintenance of Idolatry and superstition. Thus much generally for works, to let you see what is y ^e sap that maketh the tree good, & what be the fruits that are left in the register of the holy Ghost, as the best works of the best men. Now let us come particularly unto the several good deeds w ^t you set down. First for prayer. We use and practice it as the special weapon of a Christian soldier, we offer it unto God as a special part of his glory, which he will not communicate with any other: we teache men to pray in spirit and truth: not in an unknown tongue without any understanding of the truth, and therefore without any affectiō of spirit unto that truth. The scripture that commendeth fasting and alloweth it, neither knoweth nor approveth your manner of fasting. Compare your fasting with that which we do read of Joel. cap. 2. Jonah cap. 3. Nehemiah's. 9. the second of the Chronicles. cap. 20. You shall find no more resemblāce between thē, than is between white & black. In these fastinges there were special occasions, thereof and special prayers conceived & made thervpō for their release: there was no abstinence from one kind of meat, & liberty for another, but abstinence frō all meats for that time. With you special occasiō doeth not appoint the time: but your set days and times, bring on all the occasion that you have. Their prayers were peculiar according to the occasion, you have no special and peculiar prayers, as you have not any peculiar occasion:

With you, there is not abstinence from all • inde of meat for that time, but change of • ne kind of meat for another, and that of • entimes no less delicat thē the other. So that you may well be numbered with those men against whom Jerome speaketh Ad Nepotianum. Quid prodest oleo non vesci, & molestias quasdam difficultatesque ciborum quaerere, Caricas, piper, nuces, palmarum fructus, similam, mel, pistacia? tota hortorum cultura vexatur, vt cibario non vescamur pane, & dum delitias sectamur e regno coelorum retrahimur. Audio praeterea quosdā contra rerum hominúmque naturam, aquam non bibere, nec vesci pane, sed sorbitiunculas delicatas, & contrita olera, betarúmque succum, non calice sorbere sed concha. Proh pudor, non erubescimus istiusmodi ineptijs, nec taedet superstitionis? insuper etiam famam abstínentiae in delitiis quaerimus? What availeth it not to feed of oil, and to seek for the driest and hardest meats, as dry figs, pepper, nuttes, dates, manchets, honey, and those nuttes, which the Apothecaries do much use, all the garden is troubled, that we might not eat common meat, & while we follow after dainties we are drawn from the kingdom of god. I do hear moreover that there are certain men, which contrary to the nature of men, neither drink water nor eat bread, but sup delicate brothes, and suppinges, pothearbes brayed, & the juice of Beetes not out of a cup, but out of a shell. Fye for shame do ye not blush at this folly? are you not ashamed of superstition. Moreover we do seek the commendation of abstinēcye in such dainties. You se here howe ancient your kind of fasting is, and what Jerome's judgment is of such fasts, where ordinary meats are changed with delicat dainties. If he were living to behold your common kind of fasting, he would surely renew his old complaint against the superstitious fasts of his time & say, Proh pudor, non erubescitis istiusmodi ineptijs, nec taedet superstitionis, insuper etiam famā abstinentiae in delitijs quaeritis? We have not only to charge your fasts as Jerome did the superstitious abstinence of his time: but also as the Prophet doeth the profane fasting of that time that he lived in. Ecce in die ieiunij vestri inuenitur voluntas vestra. Behold in the day of • our fast you are found to do your own will. As their fasting was not regarded of the Lord, because their own will was satisfied and not the Lord's, touching their dealing with their poor brethrē: so yours is abhominable, because in your service done not unto man, but with us more unto God, you are found stiffly to uphold your own will and devotion, not yeldinge unto his written word and commandment. And therefore in a greater degree of offense, rejecting your fasts as did the Prophet theirs, we may justly say: Ecce in ieiunijs vestris inuenitur voluntas vestra. For all your fasting you are still found upholding your own will against the Lord and his word. Those afflictions that you speak so much of, whereby you pretend to bring the body in subjection to the Spirit, if they were greater then they are with some of you, yet not withstandinge you have them in common with Idolaters of all times.

For this is a note of thē, as witnesseth the Apostle in the second chapter of his Epistle to the Colossians, that they make a show of wisdom and Religion in humbleness of mind, and in not sparing their bodies: which Jerome upon this place confirmeth in these words. Non vos seducat Philosophia ad humanam doctrinā, quae sapientiae & abstinentiae specie subornatur, in qua, tam vana est corporis afflictio, tā stulta meditationis intentio, cui • s bonum ad capiendas & infirmandas hominum mentes, quasi quidam laqueus, Diabolo aucupante, protenditur, quo facilius malum suū sequens inducat. Let not Philosophy seduce you unto man's Doctrine, which is set forth with the show of wisdom and abstinence, in the which the afflicting of the body is so vain, and the earnest intent of meditation is so foolish, the goodness whereof is hong before by the Devil, as a snare to take the minds of men and to weaken them, that thereby the more easily he may bring in the poison of doctrine that cometh after. This matter he toucheth also in his exposition upon the Prophet Aggeus in these words. Et super omnē laborem manuum, & ieiunia eorum, & obseruationes varias, & humi dormitiones, qui tribus quadragessimis per • num ieiunantes, & xerofagis humiliantes animā suā, & vel maxim de Taciani radice crescentes: super huiuscemodi laboribus audiunt, tanta passi estis sine causa. Upon the labor of their hands, upon their fastinges, and diverse observations, upon their sleepinges upon the ground, which fast three Lentes every year, and bring low themselves w ^t eating of dry meats, and especially those which spring of the root of Tatianus: they hear of such labors: ye have suffered so great things in vain. You may see by the testimony of Jerome, that the afflicting of the body, is not always the best mark of the Church of God and true religion. That which before was spoken generally may well be renewed here, to wit, that not only none of these afflictions and humblinges of the body, but also no other thing how good soever of and in it self, can please the Lord, before by faith in his word we be made his Temples. To which ende Jerome, in another place doth yet speak more fully and plainly. His words are these: Omne quod fecerint, quod mihi obtulerint, vel vota pro salute, vel pacifica, vel pro peccato, vel pro delicto, vel in holocaustū: sieve eleemosynas, sieve ieiunia, sieve victus continentiam, & Corporis castitatem, contaminata erunt in conspectu meo. Quamuis enim sancta videantur specie su; quae offeruntur a talibus, tamen quia tacta sunt ab eo qui pollutus in anima est, omnia polluētur. As for the bringing of his body into subjection, which the Apostle speaketh of, & chastising of it, I doubt not but those who truly profess the Gospel have it, abstaining not only frō unlawful commodities & pleasures, but also frō those that be lawful, whē the enjoying thereof were likely to hinder the course of the Gospel, which was his meaning to declare, as any man may perceive, who w ^t indifferent judgment will peruse that chapter. To conclude this controversy of fasting, you cōtending to bind it unto certain days & certain meats, & we denying the same: let Tertullian, a man near unto Christ his time be judge herein. These are his words Certe in Euangelio illos dies ieiuniis determinatos putant, in quibus ablatus est sponsus, & hos esse iam solos legitimos ieiuniorum christianorū abolitis legalibus & propheticis vetustatibus. Vbi volunt enim agnoscunt quid sapiat: lex & prophetae vsque ad Ioannem. Itaque de caetero indifferenter i • iunandum ex arbitrio, non ex imperio nouae disciplinae, pro temporibus & causis vniuscuius{que}: sic & Apostolos obseruasse, nullū aliud imponētes iugū certorum & in commune omnibus obcundorum ieiuniorum. He affirmeth that in the tune of the Gospel those days are appointed for fasting, in which the bridegroom is taken away, meaning thereby such times as bring special occasion with them to admonish and warn us for the humbling of our selves before the Lord, & that y ^e Apostles did thus observe it: laying no yoke of certain & determined fasts upon men, but left it to be done according as the cause of everyone should require. You see how plainly he speaketh against y ^e restraining of it to certain days & time: & as plain & as flat is his speech immediately after against the restraining of us in it to certain meats, Xerophagias vero nouum affectati officii nomen, & proximum ethnicae superstitioni, quales • astimoniae Apim, Isidem, & magnam matrem, certorum eduliorum exceptione purificant, cū fides libera in Christo, ne Iudaicae quidem legi abstinentiam quorūdam ciborum debeat, semel in totum macellum ab Apostolo admissa detestatore eorum, qui sicut nubere prohibeant, ita iubeant cibis abstinere a deo conditis, & ideo nos esse iam tum prenotatos in nouissi • is temporibus abscedentes a fide, intendentes spiritibus mundi seductoribus, doctrinis mendacilo quorum inustam habentes conscientiam. He affirmeth that the eating of certain dry meats is a new name of a strange and affected office, nere unto the superstition of the heathen, and that all meats are set at liberty unto us, and that we are let in unto the shambles without any restraint, and that by the Apostle himself, who (as he saith there) doth detest thē that forbid to marie, & command to abstain from meats created of God. As before you hear his judgment for restraining of fasting unto certain dais: so now you hear it touching the restraint of certain meats in fasting. It appeareth that although he were near unto the Apostles time, yet even then this superstition begoon, which afterward so greatly prevailed.

The good work that you spend most travel upon, is prayer for the dead, and that work you would establish by Scripture, and therefore when you have alleged the place out of the second book of the Maccabees, you add these words [Dicit scriptura:] and proceed to prove that book of the Maccabees to be canonical scripture, by the testimony of Augustine. You quoate in the margent [August. De ciuitate dei. lib, 18. ca. 26. ] In that Chapter there is no such matter. I think you mean the thirty six Chapter of that book, there are the same words that you do allege, but I have to charge you of not setting down the whole sentence, but supressing of that which openeth the whole matter, you shall give me leave therefore to set down the whole sentence as it lieth. His words are these: Ab hoc tēpore apud Iudaeos restituto templo, non reges sed principes fuerunt vsque ad Aristobulum, quorum supputatio temporum, non in Scriptures sanctis quae canonicae appellantur, sed in aliis inuenitur, in quibus sunt & Machabaeorum libri: quos non Iudaei, sed ecclesia pro canonicis habet, propter quorundam Martyrum passions vehementes atque mirabiles. Augustine as you see, affirmeth this supputation of time not to be found in the holy Scriptures which are called canonical, but in other books, among the which are the books of the Maccabees: He declareth plainly that the books of the Maccabees are others and diverse from the books of the holy Scriptures which are called canonical: Non in Scriptures sanctis, quae appellantur canonicae, sed in aliis, in quibus sunt & Machabaeorum libri: he doeth not say, in quibus error opinionis Iudaei existimant esse Machabaeorum libros: But these are his words, In quibus sunt & Machabaeorum libri. He doeth not say that they are falsely thought by the Jews to be among other books, which are not called canonical, but expressly, that they are among books that be not called canonical. You lay fast hold upon this other half of the sentence: Quos non Iudaei, sed ecclesia pro canonicis habet: If you will have none of that that goeth before, I pray you let us have that, that followeth immediately: Propter quorundam martyrū passions. The church reckoneth of the books of the Maccabees, as if they were canonical, because of the suffering of certain martyrs. If they were altogether and simply canonical, what meaneth he to add any particular respect, as this is, [Propter passions martyrum,] for the suffering of Martires, why they should be accounted canonical. If his meaning be in his latter part, to heal whatsoever was wounded by him in the former, why is not his plaster as large as the wound? In the former part of the sentence without any condition or respect, he had affirmed that the books of the Maccabees were not among the holy scriptures, which are called canonical, now whē he should as you think heal this long and large wound, he cometh with a little plaster and telleth us of one cause in respect whereof these books were reputed of the church as if they were canonical. And that it is his manner not to speak of those books with general allowance and approbation as he doeth of canonical scriptures, but with condition, cautions, and particular allowance for someone special cause, w ^t he never doeth of the canonical Scripture: It appeareth in his second book against the second Epistle of Gaudentius cap. 23. Where disputing against the Donatists, who alleged the fact of Razis, for the murthering of them selves, he hath these words: Et hanc quidem scripturam, quae appellatur Machabeorū non habēt Iudaei sicut legem, Prophetas, & Psalmos, quibus dominus testimonium perhibuit tanquā testibus suis dicens: oportet omnia impleri, quae scripta sunt in lege, & prophetis, & psalmis de me: sed recepta est ab ecclesia non inutiliter, si sobrie legatur vel audiatur, maxim propter illos Machabeos qui pro dei lege sicut veri martyrs a persequutoribus tam indigna atque horrenda perpessi sunt. Consider well with what cautions this book is compassed about by Augustine, and how spare his allowance is unto it, in respect of the Canonical Scripture.

It is received of the church, saith August. not unprofitably, if it be read soberly, especially for those Maccabees, that suffered so many things of the persecutors for y ^e law of God, that the Christians (saith he) may learn from hence that the afflictions of this time are not worthy of that glory which shall be revealed. Out of this Epistle of Augustine, we may learn an answer for that place alleged by you of Judas Maccabeus his fart. The Donatists (as appeareth in that epistle) alleged Razis his killing of himself, (w ^c is commended in the 14. chapter of the 2. book of Maccabees, ) as an example to approve the murtheringe of themselves: even as you do the fact of Judas Maccabeus for prayer for the dead. His answer is this. Non debemus quicquid in scriptures etiam Dei testimonio laudatos homines fecisse legerimus consentiendo approbare: sed considerando discernere, adhibentes iudicium non nostrae auctoritatis sed Scripturarum sanctarum atque diuinarum. You may see that he would not have us build upon private examples & facts, albeit the men that have done them were good & commended by God himself, but to discern of them by the authority of the scriptures. This example therefore of Judas Machabaeus touching the dead, may not by the authority of Augustine forthwith be yielded unto because it was his doing, except being discerned by the Scripture, it be found to receive confirmation from thence. For private examples can make no general rules of doctrine. Augustine his judgment for the authority of these books you greatly stand upon: & therefore his judgment of private examples and facts I hope you will not mislyke. Neither have we only his doctrine to lead us not simply to approve this or any like fact, before it be examined by the holy Scriptures: but his practice also in this same chapter disalowing the fact of Razis, which is commended by the Author of those books, and crossing the several things given out there as matter to his great commendation.

We are therefore no bolder with this Author in this our attempt, then Augustine himself is with him, in another private fact commended not a little by the same man.

Peradventure you desire to know what that diversity is which he maketh between the Church of God now, and the Jews, as concerning these books.

This it is, that the Jews never closed those books with the Canonical under one prayer of clapses as the Church doeth now reading them together with the other, And yet they carry with them even now their note of difference and imperfection, that we may not take their authority sufficient to confirm any Doctrine, and that by the judgment & practice of the church, according as Jerome testifieth in his preface upon the Proverbs of Solomon: his words are these: Sicut Judith & Tobiae & Machabaeorum libros legit quidē ecclesia, sed eos inter canonicas scripturas non recipit: Sic & haec duo volumina legat ad aedificationem plebis, nō ad authoritatē Ecclesiasticorū dogmatū confirmādā. As y ^e church readeth the books of Judith, Tobias, and the Maccabees, but receiveth them not for Canonical scriptures: so it may read these two books (meaning the book of Wisdō and Ecclesiasticus ) for the edifyinge of the people, but not for to get authority and confirmation to any Ecclesiastical opiniō. You hear Jerome say that the church doeth not receive the books of the Maccabees as canonical scripture, that they are not of authority to cōfirm anything in controversy, here is not (Iudaei nō recipiūt) sed Ecclesia non recipit. If these words. Diligit Dominus portas Zion super omnia tabernacula Jacob, import this meaning (as you think they do) that the Lord hath opened more of his truth touching the authority of those books, & so of prayer for the dead, unto his church since Christ, then he did before unto the Jews, because he loved Zion more thā Jacob: why do you fetch your authority of praying for the dead out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and not out of the gates of Zion, out of the old Testament, and not out of the new? You cannot find prayer for the dead in all Zion where the love of the Lord is so abundantly to be seen, you are glad to seek into the tabernacles of Jacob, and finding no succor there neither, at last you light upon a pore tente, which bewrayeth it self not to be of the same buildinge with Jacob's tabernacles. For the Author of those books craveth pardon if he have swerved in any thing, which the holy Ghost is never found to have done. It is far from that spirit of all truth, to fear fallinge into error in any of his doings, so it is also from him that is god almighty in power equal with the father, to say, If I have spokē slenderly & barely, it is that I could: as if any thing were impossible unto God. I need not to labor greatly for the discredit of your authorities, for they are at such variance w ^t me in thenselves, that one doeth overthrow another. For your first authority saith, that prayer for the dead is delivered in writing from the holy Ghost: Your other authorities that follow they say it is not so, but that it is only delivered us by word of mouthe and practice from the Apostles: for so do you afterward define of traditiō, opposing it unto the written word as another member. And therefore I pray you consider howe these do depend one of another, that in your first authority you should say: [Dicit scriptura,] alleging the Maccabees, and afterward say: [Dicit traditio.] For Chrysostom & Augustine whom you bring in afterward, say that it is a tradition of the Apostles: & therefore either your Scripture is no Scripture, or else their tradition is no tradition. You must remember what Irenaeus saith in the first chapter of his third book. Non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognouimus, quàm per eos per quos Euangelium peruenit ad nos, quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt, postea vero per Dei voluntatem in Scriptures nobis tradiderunt, fundamentum & columnam Fidei nostrae futurum. We know not our salvation by any other then these, by whom the Gospel hath come unto us, which then they preached, and afterward by the will of God left it in writing to be the pillar and foundation of our faith. That which the Apostles by the will of God left us in writing, must be the ground of our faith. And therefore I am to require you to begin there, and then to declare and prove, howe faithfully you have succeeded them in that doctrine which they taught. We find not this Doctrine in that Scripture which the Apostles left written unto us, to be (as Irenaeus faith) the pillar and ground work of our faith: and therefore we cannot find you to have succeeded them in this Doctrine: unless you can prove that they had this doctrine. For to succeed a man in anything, necessarily inferreth, that the same man must have had that thing before. If you would have proved your Doctrine of good works to have been Apostolical, you should have proved that the Apostles taught the same works in the same manner that you do. I dare therefore boldly say, and shall be ready at all times to prove, that you are not the Apostles successors in your doctrine of sanctification. And as you have not been faithful unto the Apostles, to succeed them truly in their Doctrine, no more have you been unto others that came after them, who albeit they swerved something frō the purity of the Apostles, yet were they far of from such great corruptiō as you of late time have embraced. For proof hereof let us consider what that memorial of the dead was, which Dionysius Areopagita reporteth to be the tradition of the Apostles. I will not now dispute whether he were Paul his scholar or no, neither yet whether those Canons w ^t you speak of, were the Apostles Canons. Only this I will say, that it were as hard a piece of work as ever you took in hand, by good and sufficient authority to justify these your assertions. It is written, not as you quoat it in his book, [De coelesti hierarchia,] but in the 7. cap. of his book. De Ecclesiastica hierarchia, where you shall plainly understand that your church hath not suceeded him in his doctrine, touching the memorial of the dead, albeit you allege his authority for your defense. This Dionysius speaking of those who are not permitted to communicate saith thus. Nō inconuenienter autem adsunt us quae modo geruntur, patentiùs discentes at{que} intuentes nostrae mortis incertum, sanctorúmque munera de scriptures celebrata diuinis, & intēta sibi similibus impuris infinita supplicia, ex his enim forte proficient, cernentes eum qui sancte obiit ministrorum praedicatione celebrari; vt vere consortem sanctorum omnium, fortasse{que} & ipsi ad simile desiderium ventent, ministrorum officio edocti quā sit beata & vere foelix in Christo cōsummatio. In that memorial of the dead which Dionysius hath left as the practice of his time, the dead was celebrated by the ministers voice, as one who had already feloshippe with all the Saints, you celebrate your dead, as men lying under the heavy punishment and wrath of God for their sins, boiling in Purgatory, far from any likelihood to be in fellowship already with all the Saints. The celebration of the dead in that time was so comfortable (for they had no celebration of any, save them who died godly) that it was thought necessary for the worse sort, to hear and see it, to bring them in love with that kind of life and conversation which they see was glorified in the end. Fortasse (inquit) & ipsi veniēt ad simile desiderium. Your memorial of the dead is so fearfully set forth, while every man is set a work to help to haal and pul him out of Purgatory not only at the time of his burial, but many days after: that it were enough to terrify a strong hearted Christian from that profession, where the best are no better entreated: if you had not some secret plaster of Indulgences & Pardons, to heal up this wound again. True it is, there is mention there of prayer for the dead, (for I will deal otherwise with you then you do with me) not hiding anything of that, that seemeth to make most against me. Precatur oratio illa (inquit Dionysius) diuinam clementiam, vt cūcta dimittat per infirmitatem humanam admissa peccata defuncto, eúm{que} in luce statuat & regione viuorum, in sinibus Abrahae, Isaac, & Jacob: ista vt reor perspicua sunt beatissima sanctorum praemia. In this prayer for the dead it is required of God for him, that his sins may be forgiven, and that the Lord would place him in the land of the living, with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, because that is the reward of the Saints. Afterwarde he moveth a question about this prayer, what it should profit him that is departed, seeing his reward must be according to that which he hath done, be it good or evil, Fortasse (inquies) ista recte quidem a nobis dici: verùm ambigere cuius rei gratia praesul diuinā precatur clementiam defuncto, peccatorum veniam postulans, & aequalem sanctis ac lucidissimam sortem: si enim eorum quae in vita gessit bonerū aut malorum a diuina iustitia percipiet praemia, perfecit autē actiones suas in vita ista defūctus, quaenā hūc oratio praesulis ad aliam praeter illam quā meruit vitae hic actae respondentē transferet requiem. A little after he answereth this doubt in these words. Quaenam vero de huiusmodi prece, quam super defuncto peragit praesul, ex diuinis ducibus nostris traditio peruenit ad nos, operaepretium est vt dicamus, Venerandus antistes, vt scriptura ait interpres est iudiciorum diuinorum, angelus enim domini omnipotentis est: didicit igitur de scriptures diuinitus traditis, vt hi qui pie vixerunt lucidissima diuináque vita pro merito ab • equissimis lancibus redditur, non recordante diuina bonitate per summam clementiam maculas, quae illis ex humana infirmitate adhaeserūt. Ista quidē nouit pōtifex promissa a sanctis eloquiis, petit autem ea fieri donarique eisquipie vixerunt praemia sacra, simul quoque seipsum ad imitationes Dei benignus formans, & aliorum dona, quasi proprias expetens gratias, ne{que} ignorans veras repromissiones futuras, praesentibus etiam aperte demonstrate quod quae ab eo sacro iure postulantur, omnino illi consequētur qui in vita diuina consūmati sunt. Prophanis vita functis ista non precatur, quia & indign orans nou exaudiretur. His answer in some is this, That because the minister is the interpreter of the judgments of God, and knoweth that remission of sins and everlasting life is promised unto them that have lived godly, therefore he prayeth for them imitating therein the goodness of God, requiring other men their gifts as his own graces: and declaring unto them that be present that those things which he prayed for shall happen unto all them whose death shall follow a godly life. And therefore he prayeth not to have these things granted unto common and profane men, because he should not be heard for them. The question being for what cause the minister shall pray thus, seeing the dead is to receive according as he hath • oone in his life: the minister is cleared albeit there come no gain unto the dead thereby, (for there is no mention of any profit redounding unto him) first because he is the messenger of the Lord, the Interpreter of his judgments, and therefore in that his prayer doeth make declaration of the dead his condition, and as it were put him in possession of the promises made to the faithful, which he knoweth cannot but be performed. And Secondarily, because he doeth therein imitate the goodness of God, requiring other their gifts as his own graces, & last of all because he declareth thereby unto those y ^t be present, what is the reward of a godly life. He standeth much upon the first cause of his prayer, that it putteth the dead as it were in possession of life, and alledgeth authority for the ministers, that they have special gifts given them to discern whose sins be forgiven, & whose are retained, and accordingly in declaration thereof to forgive or retain, to admit unto life or to exclude, according as he doeth declare in those words: Sic profecto ill, omnis{que} illi similis praesul, iuxta paternaarum iustificationum sibi indultas reuelationes, declarando & traducendo deo charos admittit & excludit impios. This memorial of y ^e dead that Dionysius alloweth of, as received from the Apostles: resteth in the minister alone, because he hath special revelation and discretion to discern the good from the bad. There is no allowance here for other men to pray for the dead, who have not that discretion to discern between the godly and the wicked. Mo ••• uer Dionysiu • his prayer is an admission of the ••• de into heaven: yours, are emissions or deliverances out of Purgatory: they are admitted only to the benfite of his prayer, whom by special knowledge he is assured to be the elect of God: I never heard of any refused among you, who had so much money as would pay for a Dirige or a Mass of Requiem. By Dionysius his prayer, they are on the first day admitted into heaven: but for any help that we can learn they have by your prayers, a mā may come many a year after all your first days work, & yet if we will believe you, find them in Purgatory. By Dionysius his doctrine we can never learn y ^t the people may pray for the dead, nor that the minister his prayer addeth anything to the state of the dead, but is only a declaration of the Lord his mercy towards his, and as it were an admission of them thereunto before men. I hope you will consider advisedly that the doubt arising about this prayer for them, seeing the man is to be judged according to that he hath doon in his life: and no benifite being alleged to redound unto the dead, but the chief defense to consist herein that the minister is a messenger between God and man of his judgments, auctorized to pronounce according to that special knowledge and authority that is givē unto him: what slender defense you have from Dionysius. Before I told you that it was not necessary to follow you thus far, seeing you had no help from the Apostles their doctrine, and therefore you are not within the succession of their doctrine, for you are never able to prove that they taught any such doctrine of prayer for the dead as you hold. You see now that as you have not succeeded them, no more have you succeeded Dionisius in your memorial for the dead.

Let us see what help you have from Chrysostom, he saith that the memorial of the dead is a tradition of the Apostles, and that it bringeth much profit unto them. It is true he saith so, and it is as true that the same Chrysostom saith not four lines before, that it bringeth but little help & profit unto them, his words are these. Procuremus illis aliquid auxilii, modici quidem: attamen inuemus eos. Dionysius in his memorial of the dead, findeth no help for thē, but maketh all the profit thereof to redound unto the living, and he saith this kind of memorial was delivered him from the Apostles. Chrysost. saith it bringeth much help unto them, and he also telleth us that so it is delivered to them of his time, under the credit of the Apostles their tradition.

What shall we say in this variety, one being contrary to another, and the same diverse from himself: but that it is better to hearken unto God than unto man, to lean unto the certainty of his word, than to be tossed this way and that way after the incertainty of their opinions: saying with the Prophet Isaie: Shoulde not a people inquire at their God? to the law, to the testimony if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Augustine his prayer for his mothers soul (as you say) shall testify what was received as the tradition of the Apostles touching the memorial for the dead in his time: for I deny not but he saith that the church had a memorial of them at that time. Whatsoever it was that he prayed to have granted from the Lord unto his mother, he himself confesseth that he did believe his mother had obtained it before his prayer. These are his words in that same place. Credo iam feceris quod te rogo, sed voluntaria mea approba Domine. I believe that thou hast already performed that which I desire of thee, but allow my good will Lord. This prayer yieldeth no testimony of any satisfaction for her sins, that otherwise she could not have been delivered frō: but contrariwise confesseth, that she was delivered from them before his prayer. This prayer acknowledgeth no necessity of duty laid upon him by the law of God, but that it was only the franck & voluntary gift of a man that wished well unto her. And in very deed it is true that he saith it was voluntary, for he had no pattern or example in the canonical Scriptures, neither in the old nor yet in the new testament to lead him thereunto. But these and such like are the fruits of natural affection and good intents (as we cal them) when they wander without the warrant of the word. By this that ha • h been said, you may clearly see that in your Doctrine of prayer for the dead, you neither succeed the Apostles who never taught any such Doctrine: neither yet are ye • ou • de faithful deliuerers of that, which some of the ancient fathers in the Church have left in writing touching this matter, as the practice of their time, howsoever degeneratinge and declining from the sincerity of the Apostles Doctrine. If building of Churches, erecting of Altares, and offering sacrifices thereupon, be sure tokens and arguments of the true faith of Christ, as you would prove out of Chrysostom: then the heathen men have sure marks and tokens of the faith of Christ. For they build Churches, erect altares, and offer sacrifices thereupon, then the superstitious people of all times have given forth sure arguments of the true faith of Christ, for they have always abounded in these & such like outward things, being content to work their discharge as they thought, from the renouncinge of themselves and from true obedience: by the departing from some outward commodity whereof they had sufficient store, notwithstanding that portion was gone. The Prophet Micah speaking in their person, declareth y ^t they were ready to offer thousands of rams in sacrifice, and rivers of oil unto the lord: but he telleth them that to do that which the Lord requireth of them, is preferred above all outward things.

Nay he setteth that which the Lord willeth & requireth in his word, against those, to reprove them as things which he never required, when true obedience to his word was denied. And therefore when he hath spoken in their person as if they were of all men most devout and Religious, not seeminge to deny anything of theirs unto the Lord, in this manner and form of words: will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams or with x. thousand rivers of oil? as if he should have that way whatsoever he would: he answereth as if all this were nothing of that which the Lord requireth, saying: He hath shown thee o mā what is good, & what the lord requireth of thee &c. I told you before that I found none of those glisteringe works in that register, which the holy Ghost hath reserved for all ages wherein to see & behold the best men and their works. And now I tell you more, that the godly have complained, that the true Church of God was in the greatest decay & most ruinouse, when the material Church was most glistering and sumptuous, and that they had the least care of that, when they bestowed most care and cost upon the other. Jerome cōplayneth of this in his time saying. Multi aedificant parietes, & columnas Ecclesiae substruunt, marmor a nitent, auro splendent laquearia, gemmis altare distinguitur, at ministrorum Christi nulla electio est. Many build the walls & pillars of the church, the marble shineth, the beams glister with gold, the altare is pointed & divided with precious stones, but there is no choice of the Ministers. If ever this complaint of Jerome was verified, it was in the time of Popery. For there was no want of beawty in the material temple, but the true temple was suffered to fall in to utter decay, and how could it be otherwise for there was no choice of the Ministers, who where to build the true church of God, every man was thought sufficiently able, who could read the Mass book, albeit he understood never a word thereof.

My chief purpose is to give you to understand, that when the material church hath been in greatest beawty, the godly and learned have complained, that men who are the true and living church, have been the furthest from the true knowledge & fear of God. Which could not be otherwise, when those who were to finish that work, were altogether ignorant, and no choice made of thē, but (as we say) tagge and rag admitted thereunto without any exception taken either against learning or life. And therefore you may clearly see by Jerome his complaint, that building of Churches and Altars, are not the surest notes of the faith of Christ, because those have been built, whē there have been such ignorant & lewd Ministers, that it could not be otherwise, but that true faith and religion must go to ruin and decay. We may plainly see and perceive, that mē have pleased themselves so in those kind of works: that the godly have perceived a decay of the greatest duties, either to be supported by the glistering show thereof, or else not to be espied & rightly examined. And the truth is so, that they are in very deed so glistering to the sight of a natural man, as they do easily carry him from the true sight and estimation of better things, to esteem of them more basely thā they do deserve, and of the other more lightly thā there is any just cause. And in very deed, we never have seen or read that they have been in great credit, but that thervpō hath grown a small accompt of true Christian works and of the best deeds. In so much that the learned fathers have debated the matter, whither that to maintain and relieve poor men in their necessity (who are the living temple) were not as acceptable a work to God, as to build a material temple of stone. Quod templum Deo charius quàm homo? templum Dei vos estis (inquit Apostolus:) cùm pauperi manū tribuis, cùm viro in suis necessitatibus subuenis, cū errantem ad viam rectam reducis. O quàm admirabile & Deo gratum templum aedifi • asti! What Church is dearer to god then man? you are the temple of god (saith the apostle,) when thou givest thy helping hand to a poor man, whē thou doest succor a mā in his necessity, when thou bringest him that is in error into the truth, o how wonderful is that church, and how acceptable unto god which thou hast built, saith Eusebius. If that time had not doted so greatly in the opiniō of those glistering works, that thereupon had grown the neglect of the other, what needeth such extollinge of mercy toward the poor, as to call it a church wonderful in the sight of God? or what meaneth he to restrain the excellency & acceptation of it in this manner, [howe wonderful and acceptable a church is it unto God,] if this his speech carry not in it a secrete reproufe and correction of the judgment of flesh and blood touching those outward glisteringe works, and a meaning to induce them to make more account of the other? It is given forth of the godly, that they were merciful men and well reported of in their times, but as for many of those, who have left such glisteringe works behind them, they have been better reported of by the ages who never knew them, than ever they were in their own time, for their dealings while they lived have had little mercy in them toward the poor. By all likelihood they were of opinion, that that which they purposed to do at their death should make amends for all. That we may join in this contention for good works, set forth your best men and best works. Let there be on your part, a great number that have built Churches, Hospitalles, and Colleges, departing liberally from a great portion of their goods to such ends & purposes: those are of your best sort, for all of you do not leave such fruits behind: And we will set against these an infinite number of men, who in the cause of God his truth, to get glory unto him, and to confirm their bretherē in the Gospel, have departed not from a portion of their goods and lands: but from all the comforts & commodities of this life, yea & frō life it self. Now let judgment proceed whether of these be more excellent works. Irenaeus affirmeth that this work [of confirming the Gospel with our blood] is the principal & chief effect and fruit of love. He maketh it a special noate to discern the Church by, that it sendeth multitudes of Martyrs unto God, whereas Satan albeit he hath now & thā his martyrs as well as Christ, yet they are but a few, nothing compatable in mumber & multitude with the rest: There is in the church saith Irenaeus, Precipuū dilectionis munus, quod est praetiosius quàm agnitio, gloriosius quā prophetia, omnibus reliquis charismatibus supereminens: quapropter ecclesia omni in loco ob eā quam habet erga deum dilectionem, multitudinem martyrum omni tēpore praemittit ad patrem. He calleth martyrdom the chief effect of love passing other gifts, & because y ^e church hath this, he affirmeth y ^t therefore she sendeth multitudes of martyrs at all times unto the father, proceeding to declare that albeit sathā labor to have that in show w ^t Christ hath in truth, yet he cometh infinitely short of y ^e mumber & multitude that standeth to death in Christ his cause. As your accusation of our want of good works, is the same that hath been made by ancient heretics against y ^e church of god in former times: so in this our answer we are nothing diverse but altogether agreeing with that which Augustine speaketh for the purgation of the Church in his time. His words are these. Quid tanti er • oris longa defensione implicamini? fruges in agro, frumenta in area quaerite: apparebunt facile seseque offerent ipsa quaerentibus: quid nimis in purgamenta oculos intenditis? quid ab opimi horti vbertate imperitos homines sepium asperitate terretis? Est certus aditus quāuis paucioribus notus, quo possit intrari, qùem vos aut esse non creditis, aut inuenire nō vultis. Sunt in Ecclesia Catholica innumerabiles fideles, qui hoc mundo non vtantur, sunt qui vtantur tanquam non vtentes, vt ab Apostolo dicitur, quod illis temporibus iam probatum est quibus ad idolorum cultum Christiani cogebantur. Quot enim tunc patres familias rusticani, quot negatiatores, quot milita res, quot primates vrbium suarum, quot deni{que} senatores vtriusque sexus haec omnia vana & temporalia reliquentes, quibus vtique quamuis vterentur non detinebantur mortem pro salubri fide ac religione subierunt demonstrauerunt{que} infidelibus a se potius illa omnia quem se ab eis esse possessos. August. willeth them to look at the corn & to let the chaff alone, to look over the hedge that is stopped and stuffed with thorns, unto the field that is full of fruit & good Corn, he blameth thē for being too much given to behold their conversation beside the name, had nothing else of christianity: whom he compareth to chaff and thorns. He telleth them that albeit this field of the Lord's be hedged about with thorns, & many evil men and of wicked conversation make profession to be of that number: yet for all that there is an entry into it, although it be known only unto a few: which (saith he) either you believe not, or else will not find. He proceedeth to open unto them this entry, whereby they may pass to take a view of the Lord his fruiteful field, leading them to the times of persecution, when so many of all estates and degrees, declared that they used the world as if they used it not, by leaving all their goods and their life it self for the cause of the Gospel. He professeth that this entrance to take a vewe of the Lord his harvest, is known to few. I pray you, observe that in Augustine, for the way that you make to lead us to discern of the Church, is known to all, even to wicked men, it is so glorious and glistering. I would we had not cause to say unto you with Augustine: Fruges in agro, frumenta in area querite, quid nimis in purgamenta oculos intenditis? Seek for good corn in the barn, why do you look overmuch upon the chaff? Now I am to crave of you, that you would diligently consider, whether there be not just cause to speak against this rotten fruit that you bring forth, and whither you be that good tree that is nourished with the sap of God his word and bringeth forth fruit like unto that, that is left us as a pattern in the Calendar of Christian works.

Assertion.

For the third it is written: Constituit vos spiritus sanctus episcopos regere ecclesiam dei, quam acquisiuit sanguine suo.

Pro patribus tuis nati sunt tibi filii, constitues eos principes super omnem terram, memores erunt nominis tui domine in omni generatione & generationem. Patres (in quit Augustinus ) missi sunt Apostoli, pro Apostolis, filii nati sunt tibi, constituti sunt episcopi. Non ergo te putes desertam quia non vides Petrum, quia non vides Paulum, quia non vides eos, per quos nata es de prole tua tibi creuit paternitas, haec est ecclesia catholica. Quatuor esse euangelia nobis nō prodit scriptura, ne{que} tres personas deū vnum esse, at{que} adeo ne reperitur quidē personae nomen in scriptures de Deo dictū, sicut nec trinitatis. Nos tamē tres personas dicimus, nō quia scriptura dicit (inquit Aug.) sed quia scriptura nō contradicit, & quia sic ab Apostolis & eorū successoribus traditū accepimus, quorū etiā esse tradition̄ vtparuuli baptizetur Dionysius et Origen's testātur. Irenaeus Apostolorū temporibus proximus fuit, cuius verba haec sunt: Agnitio vera est apostolorum doctrina, & ecclesia antiquus status inv • tuer so mūdo secūdum successiones episcoporum, quibus illi eam quae in vnoquoque loco est ecclesiam tradiderunt, quae peruenit ad nos us{que} custodita. Et alio loco • s tantum Episcopis obedire iubet, qui successionem habent ab Apostolis, qui cum succession episcopatus, charisma veritatis certum acceperunt. Reliquos vero qui absistūt a principali succession, quocunque loco colligātur suspectos haberi vult. Tertul. cupio (inquit) ostēdāt mihi exqua authoritate {pro}dierunt. Edāt origines ecclesiarū suarū, euoluāt ordinē Episcoporū suorū, ita per successiones ab initio decurrētē, vt primus ill episcopus aliquē ex apostolis vel apostolicis viris, qui tamē cum Apostolis perseuerauerit habuerit author̄ et antecessorem, hoc enim modo ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deserunt. Sicut ecclesia Smyrnaeorum Polycarpū a Ioanne collocatum refert: sicut Romanorum Clemētem a Petro ordinatum edit. Proinde vti{que} & caeterae exhibēt quos ab apostolis in episcopatu cōstitutos apostolici seminis traduces habeāt. Now you see that the true & very church of Christ is that which hath her successiō of bishops frō the apostles, which bishops with the successio of their bishopricks hath received the certain grace of truth, that is to say the sacrament of the holy orders by impositiō of hands in the which god giveth the said grace, as Paul witnesseth saying to Tim. Admoneo te vt resuscites gratiā dei quae in te est {per} impositionē manuū mearū And also that the ancient state of the church through the world not in one place or two is the true doctrine of the Apostles (Teste Irenaeo) which cōcordeth with this saying of the Prophet Jeremiah, State supervias, & videte & interrogate de semitis antiquis, non nouis, quae sit via bona, & ambulate in ea, & inuenietis requiem animabus vestris. Scriptura refert Apostolos ieiunantes & orantes imposuisse manus Paulo & Barnabae, quos ex praecepto spiritus sancti mittebant ad praedicandum Euangilium. Si in collatione ordinis nulla infunderetur gratia, non esset opus tanta praeparatione. Which grace is that certū charisma, which Irenaeus saith before, must be received with the succession of their Bishoprics, for if they receive not that per impositionem manuū of the former Bishops so ordained, they are not (by the said Irenaeus words) to be obeyed.

Answeare.

YOu say there is a continual succession as well of Bishops as of doctrine in the church, from the Apostles time unto this. For proof of your succession as well of Bishops as doctrine. You allege a place out of the Acts cap. 20. ver. 28. Constituit vos spiritus sanctus Episcopos regere ecclesiam Dei, quam acquisivit sanguin • suo. Here is not one word for succession either of Bishops or Doctrine, no not one word that can be wrong that way, and I hope you do remember that to have been your purpose to prove. These words that you have alleged, signify thus much in our tongue: The holy Ghoste hath appointed you Bishops, to govern the church of god, which he hath purchased with his blood. What I pray you is here to be gathered for continual succession? In this place the Apostle telleth the Bishops of Ephesus that their charge is great, to be betrusted with those whom the Lord hath purchased with no less price than his blood: But as for succession of Doctrine and Bishops, that it shall be continual, there is not one word that soundeth that way. And therefore I pray you even as you tender your own saluatiō, that you would not suffer yourselves to be carried away with so weak grounds. But I pray you seeing this witness cometh from heaven, let us hear more of him. And good reason it is that he should be heard at large, for he is the only witness that you bring from above, to testify with you for your doctrine that it is Apostolical. I pray you read the two verses following this, which you have alleged. You shall find it there written thus. Ego enim, noui hoc, quod ingressuri sunt post discessum meum lupi graves in vos, non parcentes gregi: & ex vobis ipsis exorientur viri loquentes peruersa, vt abducant discipulos post se. Do you not see that he forewarneth the Bishops of Ephesus to look well to themselves, and to their charges, because he knew that after his departure wolves would enter upon the flock, and that out of themselves would arise men speaking perverse things to draw disciples after them. Here is a prophecy that Wolves shall shortly enter into the flock: Nay which more is, there is here a foretelling that some of themselves shall degenerate into wolves. This authority therefore that foretelleth y ^e entering in of woolfs, & prophesieth of the degenerating of some of themselves into wolves, is a weak ground to build succession upon, & to persuade us that we ought to embrace that doctrine, w ^t can bring for it only succession of good persons or places. If you shall well weigh that place, you shall find that it is not possible to speak more directly against succession then that place doeth.

Augustine upon the Psalm 44. affirmeth that the church may not take herself to be forsaken because she seeth not Peter & Paul, but he proveth not, neither speaketh so much as one word for a continual succession of Bishops, to continue unto the end of the world as a mark of the true church, who are to deliver their places orderly, and their doctrine truly without any corruption unto others. Peradventure you think that because Augustine interpreteth this place of scripture so, that he will have the childrē to signify bishops, & then saith in the plural number that they shall remember thy name forever: that therefore there must be a continual succession of Bishops. This error groweth upon the ignorance of the Hebrew tongue: for there the berbe is in the singular noneber, & so it is in the trāslatiō of the Septuaginta. It is likewise so interpreted by Jerome, who had more skill in the Hebrew tongue then Augustine had, and referred not unto Bishops but unto the Church, that she shall remember the name of the Lord forever. His words are these: Regina quae steterat a dexteris tuis in vestitu deaurato, & iussa fuerat obliuisci populi & domus patris sui, iterum illi dictum erat, pro patribus tuis nati sunt tibi filij, constitues eos principes super omnem terram: intelligens quanta sit decoranda gloria, & quibus praemijs subleuanda, conuertit ad sponsum voces suas: & pollicetur recordaturam se semper nominis sponsi, in omni generatione & generatione. You may hear howe Jerome saith it is the Church that shall remember the name of the lord forever, and not as you would have it the Bishops only.

That the Church receiveth four Gospelles and no moe, that it giveth the name of Person & trinity unto God, not because the scripture expressly directeth us in these things, but because it doeth not speak against then (as you say) and because it is so delivered unto us from the Apostles: doeth nothing at all prove, that the grounds of faith & religion which the apostles taught, shall remain unto the ende of the world in the safe custody of Bishops: & that they shall truly deliver thē over to their successors, so as we may safely stick to succession as a true note of the Church. I do marvel that you do so greatly forget yourself and the matter that you have taken in hand to prove. Is this the doctrine of the Apostles touching salvation, or their tradition? your purpose is to prove that the doctrine of the Apostles left in writing concerning the grounds of faith & Religiō, is delivered frō Bishop to Bishop in y ^e true sense & understanding thereof, by a perpetual succession for the benefit of the Church. Therefore as before you could find no succession of person, so here you fail in finding succession of doctrine. If all that is brought be true, yet is nothing proved but a succession of some tradition. For there is not one word spoken for the reserving of the scriptures unto the church in the true sense and understanding thereof. Now for the things themselves, the Church of God by the word trieth true teachers from false Prophets, & true Doctrine from counterfeit and corrupt. And so are we exhorted to do, And albeit the scripture hath not expressly set down the very words of Trinity and person, yet hath it set down all that truth which is contained in these words, whereby the church was directed to make choice of such words, for the better explaining of matters in controversy. It appeareth by Augustine that the Church had not only the scriptures not speaking against the name of Trinity, but leading them to to use that name. His words are these. Nobis autem sufficiat scire de Trinitate, quod Dominus exponere dignatus est: quod ergo dicit ad Apostolos: ite, & baptizate omnes gentes, in nomine patris, & filij, & spiritus Sancti, Tria nomina audio, & vnū dicitur nomen, non enim dixit in nominibus, sed in nomine. You hear Augustine his judgment that touching the Trinity it is sufficient for us to hold that which the lord himself hath declared therein.

The place which you do allege out of Irenaeus maketh greatly against you, and your Church, and so will it appear unto any indifferent reader. But you have not dealt simply herein, for ye have kept back that w ^t bewrayeth your cause, breaking of the sentence, where there was no manner of point, no not so much as a comma. I will set down the whole unto you, and let yourself be your own judge, whether you or whosoever did deliver it unto you, hath dealt well and simply herein. Agnitio vera est Apostolorum Doctrina, & antiquus Ecclesiae status in vniuerso mundo & charactere corporis Christi, secundùm successiones Episcoporū, quibus illi eam quae in vnoquoque loco est Ecclesiam tradiderunt, quae peruenit ad nos vsque custodita sine fictione, scripturarum tractatione plenissima, neque ablationem recipieus lectio sine falsatione, & secundum Scripturas expositio legitima & diligens, & sine periculo, & sine blasphemia & praecipuum dilectionis munus quod est preciosius quam agnitio, gloriosius autem quàm Prophetia, omnibus autem reliquis Charismatibus supereminens. Quapropter Ecclesia omni in loco ob eam quam habet erga Deum dilectionem multitudinem martyrum in omni tempore praemittit ad Patrem.

He placeth true knowledge in the Apostles doctrine, and in the old state of the Church, as knowledge was given thereof by those Bishops, to whom the Apostles committed the Churches, that were then in the time of Irenaeus in any place. All the succession that here is mentioned, is restrained unto those Bishops who wear immediately after the Apostles, at whose hands they received those Churches. Now that this knowledge came truly to him & his time from those Bishops: this induceth him to think so, because they received frō them, Scripturarum tractationem plenissimam: A plentiful treatise of the Scriptures, without suspiciō of forgery or falsifying. Secondly because they received frō them (as he saith) Expositiones legitimas secundum scripturas, & sine periculo, & sine blasphemia: Diligent and lawful commontaries & expositions agreeable to the scriptures, not conteyninge any blasphemy or error: Whereas Heretics will not have their expositions measured by scriptures, but scriptures measured by their expositions & interpretations of them: affirming that they only have the true sense thereof because they are the Church that cannot err: Thirdly because there was in that ancient state of the Church to be seen, Praecipuum dilectionis munus: The greatest fruit of love even to offer themselves unto martyrdom in great numbers and multitudes, by reason of that love which they did bear unto God and his Gospel: Multitudinem enim martyrū praemittit ad Deum patrem. If this testimony of Irenaeus had holpen you, it should not have mentioned those Bishops only to whom the Apostles delivered the Churches, but spoken of an orderly succession of them to continue forever without any rstrainte, Neither should he have spoken so spatingly of the matter, as to have said it came safe to their hands, who were so near the Apostles time by them who succeeded the Apostles: but without any suspicion of alteration, he should have given it forth as a matter appointed and established, whereby to keep doctrine safe unto the Church forever. And last of all he should have suppressed the notes of their faithfulness, consisting in the reserving of the scriptures without forgery or falsefiyng: and in warranting their expositions by scriptures: & in having to be seen the principal effect of love: w ^t is multitudes of martyrs dying for the Gospel, and have sent us only unto succession, charging us to receive that w ^t we shall find observed there, without any further question, because succession was appointed to be an infallible note of the Church in all times, which is the pillar of truth. You see he dealeth far otherwise. If we had received from your Bishops a diligent examination of your writings by the scriptures, (& that ye had not left them & gone to fathers, councils, & traditions, charging us to stick unto succession) with that other note which he calleth the principal effect of love: than might we have said with Irenaeus, Agnitio vera peruenit us{que} ad nos. As this place flatly condemneth your Church, where there is neither the confirming of your writings & preachings by scriptures, neither yet that other note of plentiful witnessing to the truth by death and martyrdom, so doeth it strongly establish ours, and justify it to have true knowledge in it, and to be agreeable to the ancient estate of the church, because those three notes that he speaketh of are apparently to be seen in our churches. For we have the scriptures plentifully set forth, we warrant our expositions by scriptures: & we have & do send daily multitudes of martyrs unto the father, who testify his truth unto the world, & seal up the assurance thereof with their blood. Your other place out of Irenaeus doth help your cause no more then the former. Nay the circūstāces of the place do utterly overthrow the meaning that you would make of it. Which that it may plainly appear I will set down unto you together with your place, those words also that go in order and next before & after it. Intelligentes fulgebunt quemadmodum claritas firmamēti, & a multis iustis sicut stellae in secula. Et adhuc quēadmodum ignur ostēdimus siquis legat scripturas. Etenim dominus sic disseruit discipulis post resurrection̄ suam a mortuis, & ex ipsis scriptures ostēdēs eis quoniā oportebat pati Christum & intrare gloriā suā, & in nomine eius remissionem peccatorum praedicari in toto mundo, & erit consummatus discipulus & similis patrifamilas, qui de thesauro suo profert noua & vetera. Quapropter eis qui in ecclesia sunt presbiteris ob audire oportet, qui successionem habent ab Apostolis sicut ostendimus, qui cum Episcopatus succession charissima veritatis certum, secundum placitum patris acceperunt. Reliquos vero qui absistunt a principali succession, quocunque loco colligantur suspectos habere, vel quasi haereticos & malae sententiae, vel quasi scindentes & elatos & sibi placentes, aut rursus vt hypocritas questus gratia & vanae gloriae hoc operantes. Omnes autem hi decedūt a veritate, et haeretici quidē alienum ignem afferentes ad altare dei, id est alienas doctrinas, a caelesti igne comburentur, quemadmodum Nadab & Abiu. The matter he speaketh of immediately before, is to declare what excellency a man atteineth unto by the reading and knowledge of the Scriptures, & y ^t our savior Christ proved after his resurrection unto his disciples out of y ^e scriptures, that christ ought to suffer and so enter into his glory: and thereunto addeth that he is a good disciple & like unto y ^e good man of the house, who bringeth out of his treasure provision new and old: Immediatly hereupon he bringeth in that sentence which you allege wherefore we must obey those Bishops that are in the Church, who together with the succession of their bishoprickes, have received the sure gift of truth, according to the good will of the father. There is not secundùm impositionē manuum, as you would willingly gather. All his speech before was of the truth and scriptures of God, this that you have alleged beginneth with the note of illation or inferring [Quapropter] wherefor, &c. And the thing brought in thereupon is, that those Bishops ought to be obeyed, who have received the grace & gift of truth according to the good pleasure of the father: All other which have not this principal successiō of truth, he maketh either heretics, schismatiques, or hypocrites, affirming that they fall from the truth which before he had called the principal succession. And continuing still in the same matter he affirmeth that those who bring strange fire, that is (as he interpreteth it) strange doctrine, shall be burnt w ^t heavenly fire as was Nadab & Abiu. So that y ^e whole chapter rūneth upon the word of god & true doctrine, which he calleth the principal succession, without the which he would have us to suspect any bishop what succession soever he had of place. And if all this cannot satisfy you, that his meaning is to make no accompt of succession of person & place, whē the principal succession of truth is wanting: turn unto the next chapter, where the same matter is continued, & there you shall find these words. Ab omnibus igitur talibus absistere oportet, adhaerere vero his, qui & Apostolorum (sicut praediximus) doctrinā custodiunt et cum presbyterij ordine sermon̄ sanum & conuersationē sine offensa praestāt, ad informationē & correctionē reliquorū. Where you may plainly see what succession he spoke of before, even the successiō of the Apostles doctrine. Al the patching & piecing in the world, can never make hole this breach that Irenaeus hath made into your successiō of persons, & you may clearly understand what cost & pains you have bestowed in vain, in laboring to bring in your sacrament of orders & imposition of hands, as being understood by that, which he calleth the gift or grace of truth. If the word [truth] cannot move you, the circūstāces (if ye will not be willingly blinded) cā not but persuade you. I do therefore w ^t your own authority reply against you, that all those are to be suspected, what successiō soever they bring of person or place, that bring not w ^t thē the principal successiō, w ^t is the doctrine of the Apostles. If true doctrine went always with succession of bishops, what needeth Iren. to speak of any diuorse between thē? nay, what needeth he to will us to look unto the truth making the principal successiō, y ^t as for your neighbors that stand in the margin, if your weapon were answerable to your good will, I would tell them, that you have bid battle unto them: But in as much as I see you fall down in the field, your own weapon taken out of your hand, & yourself wounded withal, I have more pity of you, thā of thē: & therefore there shall no beacō burn (by my consent) to warn any to beware of war frō you: until I see you recovered of some of those dangerous wounds, that you have taken already.

From Irenaeus you pass to Tertullian, with whom it will fall out, that you shall find as little help for your purpose, as you have had before from Irenaeus. And because you suppress always that that maketh against you: I am here enforced, as before, to set down that which immediately goeth before, and also follow the words by you alleged. Caeterùm si quae advent interserere se etati Apostolicae vt ideo videātur ab Apostolis traditae, quia sub Apostolis fuerunt: possumus dicere, Edant ergo origines ecclesiarum suarum: euoluant ordinem episcoporum suorum, ita per successiones ab initio decurrentem, vt primus ill episcopus aliquē ex apostolis vel Apostolicis viris, qui tamen cum Apostolis perseuerauerit habuerit authorem & antecessorem. Hoc enim modo ecclesiae Apostolicae census suos deferunt, sicut Smyrnaeorū ecclesia habēs Policarpum ab Ioanne collocatum refert, sicut Romanorum, Clementem a Petro ordinatum edit, proinde vtique & caeterae exhibēt, quos ab Apostolis in episcopatu cōstitutos Apostolici seminis traduces habeant. Confingant tale aliquid haeretici.

Quid enim illis post blasphemiam illicitum est? Sed & si confinxerint, nihil promouebunt. Ipsa enim doctrina eorum cum Apostolica comparata, ex diuersitate & contrarietate sua pronunciabit, ne{que} Apostoli alicuius Autoris esse, ne{que} Apostolici. Quia sicut Apostoli nō diuersa inter se docuissent, ita & Apostolici non contraria Apostolis aedidissent, nisi illi qui ab Apostolis desciuerūt, & aliter praedicauerunt. Ad hanc itaque formam prouocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex Apostolis vel apostolicis autorē suum proferāt, vt multo posteriores: quae deni{que} quotidie instituuntur: tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae. Ita omnes heresies ad vtram{que} formam à nostris Ecclesiis prouocatae, probent se quaqua putant Apostolicas. If any would therefore be accounted Apostolical churches, because they lived under the apostles, & in their time: let such churches show what Apostle did first found theirs (saith Tertull. ) We are not in their time, neither claim we privilege in any such respect: but mark what followeth: If they could forge such a succession (saith he) belike then it is not altogether impossible so to do, yet would it help them nothing, because the Apostles doctrine compared with theirs, would bewray it not to be the Apostles nor Apostolical. You have cause therefore to be ashamed ever hereafter, to make successiō of bishops a necessary note of the church, w ^t by Tertull. his judgment is subject to forgery, & if it were not, yet could not prove any ting at all (as he saith) when the doctrine of the Apostles shall be found diverse and disagreeing from theirs. You may see that he will have the Apostles doctrine, to confute & overthrow that succession which upholdeth any doctrine contrary or diverse from theirs. And consider this one thing well I pray you, that he saith Heretics are to be brought to the trial of the Apostles doctrine, by those Churches which albeit they bring none of the Apostles nor Apostolical men for their Authors and first founders (as being a long time after them) yet are never a whit the less to be accōpted Apostolical, by reason of their kindred & alliaūce w ^t the Apostles doctrine. He affirmeth plainly and in express words, that the churches which were long after the Apostles time, are to be tried whether they be apostolical or no, by that Doctrine which the Apostles delivered: But as for these Churches that were next unto the Apostles time, they dare be boulde (saith he) to provoke Heretics jointly to the trial of succession as well of person, as of doctrine. Succession therefore of Bishops is (by Tertullian his judgment) no trial of Churches at this time, his authority hath utterly euerthrowē that hold of yours. Mark well the words for they are Tertullian his words and not mine. Ad hanc ita{que} formam prouocabuntur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex apostolis vel Apostolicis viris author̄ suum proferunt, vt multo posteriores, quae deni{que} quotidie instituuntur, tamen in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate Doctrinae.

From this place of Tertullian we have a plain Doctrine, that whatsoever the fathers have spoke for succession of Bishops, as a mark to make known the true church: by the same is to be restrained unto those times that were nere unto the Apostles. For of other churches he saith, albeit they bring none of the Apostles or Apostolical men for there authors, as being long after them: nevertheless agreeing with them in faith and Doctrine, they are to be accounted Apostolical as well as the other, because of their alliance by Doctryne. The very words that immediately go before these which you have alleged, do put the matter out of doubt, that this trial of succession is only meant for such Churches as were nere the Apostles time. His words are these: Caeterùm si quae advent interserere se aetati Apostolicae, vt ideo videantur ab Apostolis traditae, quia sub Apostolis fuerunt, possimus dicere: Edāt ergo origines Ecclesiarum suarum, euoluant ordinem Episcoperum suorum, &c. But if any dare intrude themselves into the Apostles time, that they should be accounted Apostolical, because they were under the Apostles: we may say let those then show the original of their Churches, let them recite the order and succession of their Bishops. I hope now Syr that you do plainly see, what little help you have frō these authorities that are alleged by you: & that you do well consider howe unfaithfully they have been aduouched, what cutting and paringe you have made of them, and howe that there is not one of your witnesses brought to prove your Church to be Apostolical, if you had suffered him to tell out his tale, and not stopped his mouth in the midst of his speech: but would have utterly overthrown your cause, and established ours which you labor to overthrow. And therefore I do beseech you in the fear of God to look well unto it. Peruse the places again, consider better of them, and mark the judgments of god upon you & your cause, that your very witnesses should be wray you, even those that you deliberately & of purpose have picked out to speak for your purgation. If I might have prescribed those fathers what to say against your cause, and for ours: I could have devised no better matter than they have uttered, evē in the places by you alleged. Irenaeus saith plainly that the truth hath descended from the Apostles to his time without forgery: because the scriptures were faithfully delivered unto them: and because all their commentaries and expositions were warraunted by the Scriptures: You do not warrant your expositions by Scriptures, but contrarywyse will have the Scriptures to have warrant from your expositions: for you must give the sense and meaning thereof, because it is of and in it self, as you say afterward, Mortua vox, a dead word.

He saith in the other place, that those Bishops, that depart from the principal succession of true doctrine, whatsoever they have to say for their succession of person and place, are notwithstanding to be suspect of Heresy or schism.

What need was there to make mention of the truth, as the principal succescion, that we should be suspicious of those Bishops, that had no such succession from the Apostles: if the succession of the truth be (as you say) kept and reserved in a continual orderly succession of Bishops: if wheresoerver that succession be of persons, the other of Doctrine be inseparably bound thereunto. For if wheresoever there be this succession of Bishops, there we must look undoubtedly to have the truth, then is that of person, the principal succession, and the other of truth, but a companion, that waiteth and giveth daily and dutifully attendance thereupon. If this be so, then we are first to inquire after the succession of persons, being assured there to find the truth: And in deed your proofs such as they be, are wholly alleged for succession of person, belike if you could find that, you would not greatly pass for finding the truth. You are contrary to Irenaeus herein, who maketh succession of truth, the principal succession. As for Tertull. he affirmeth plainly, that the doctrine of the apostles will confute them, whosoever shall bring a diverse doctrine, albeit they allege for thē successiō of persons as you do from the Apostles: Ipsa enim inquit doctrina eorum cum Apostolica comparata, ex diuersitate & contrarietate sua pronunciabit, ne{que} Apostoli alicuius esse ne{que} Apostolici. He affirmeth likewise that the churches who were long after the Apostles time, are to try themselves Apostolical by their alliance w ^t the Apostles in doctrine. Ad hanc ita{que} formā prouocabūtur ab illis Ecclesiis, quae licet nullum ex Apostolis vel Apostolicis authorem suum proferunt, vt multo posteriores: tamē in eadem fide conspirantes, non minùs. Apostolicae deputantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae. You see what help we have for our religiō, out of your strongest houldes. We have in the scriptures the authentical letters and Epistles of the Apostles, conteyninge the sum of that Doctrine, which they taught in those Churches that they planted which are rightly called by Tertullian the mother Churches. We have the sum of that Doctrine left us in writing, which Paul taught at Rome, at Corinth, at Philippos, at Ephesus, and at Thessalonica, where he founded Churches. You should first have warrāted your religiō by that doctrine, & frō thence have proceeded to let us understand, how that doctrine hath continued amongst you from time to time. You would bear the world in hand, that you derive your doctrine frō the Apostles and ancient Churches, yet you shun as rocks all trial by the Apostles and those mother Churches, where their Chaires were placed, and their own doctrine faithfully under their own hands and seals delivered. Let us first see how you do agree with the Apostles themselves, and then with those Bishops who have succeeded them: how with the first & mother Churches, and then with those latter who have been planted after them. Let us see you first knit unto the head, and then unto the members. After your testimonies and allegations for succession, you add these words: Now ye see that the true and very Church of Christ is, which hath her succession of Bishops from the Apostles: Wherunto I answer that there is no eye so sharp of sight, that cā discern any such matter, by those proofs that you have brought: but every man that hath not his eyes closed up, may see plainly (by that light which your own witness have given unto this cause) that succession of Bishops is no note now in these later times whereby to discern the Church.

You infer likwyse upon such authorities as you have aduouched, that the ancient state of the Church through the world is the Apostles doctrine. I know you can have no color for any such collection, unless you take liberty to chaung and transpose Est for &, and & for est, after your pleasure: that whereas Irenaeus saith, Agnitio vera est Apostolorum doctrina & antiquus Ecclesiae status: You read: Agnitio vera & Apostolorum doctrina est antiquus Ecclesiae status. As for those printes and marks of the old state of the Church, which were in Irenaeus his time, I proved before that they where clean worn out, and no token of them to be seen among you: for your expositions are not legitimat by Scriptures, but laid upon us by virtue of the Church, whereof you still plead possession, howe unjust soever your title be.

You would gladly find out of these words. Certum charisma veritatis: The Sacrament of orders: which you say is received together with their Bishopriks: but the circumstances of that place make the matter so plain to be meant of the gift or grace of truth, which he calleth the principal succession, as no man that will vouchsafe to read and compare it with that which goeth before and also followeth it, can possibly be brought to make a doubt thereof. From your holy orders which you would wring out of this place, you proceed I will not say without order, I am sure without any occasion offered to the manner of ordaining Bishops, • hich you say must be by the laying on of hands of former Bishops so ordained, or otherwise they are not to be obeyed.

So that you secretly shoot at the ministry of the church of England, that it is utterly unlawful & not to be obeyed, because our bishops w ^t have ordained others, were not themselves ordained of your Bishops, that were before them. Do you say that no man is a lawful Bishop, but he that is ordained of another Bishoppe? If that be true thē I dare say and can plainly prove, that your Bishops are unlawful Bishops, and therefore not to be obeyed. For from the beginning (as Jerome testifieth) there was no difference in the church between a bishop and a minister: but afterward when schisms grew to be many and great in the Church, for the suppressing thereof one was appointed to be above the rest, which had the name of Bishoppe proper unto him, which before was common unto all, as the Scripture declareth. In those first times therefore of schism, those Bishops must of necessity be ordained of others then bishops: because there were then no bishops in the Church, as now we do speak of thē. And therefore by your own reason, your own bishops being as you affirm from the beginning, are illegitimate and not to be obeyed, because they were not ordained of former Bishops: now that if they were not lawfully ordained thē selves, thē could they not lawfully ordained others: for other title then they had them selves they could not give unto others. By this descriptiō that you have made of the lawful ordaining & creating of bishops, y ^e whole brood of your bishops from the first unto the last, standeth illigitimate & plainly convict of bastardy. We know and are assured by the truth of GOD his word, that it is lawful for ministers of the word, to ordain them who are to labor in the ministry of the word: for thus we read in the Epistle to Timothy. 1. cap. 4. Ne neglige illud donum quod datum est tibi per prophetiam cum impositione manuum praesbiterij. Now there is no man, howe ignorant soever he be of the Scripture, or of the Greek tongue in the which the new testament was penned, if he have any skill in the Latin: that will derive Presbyterium, non à presbyteris, sed ab Episcopis. You may perceive thē that they were praesbiteri and not Episcopy ministers or elders, and not bishops (as now we speak of Bishops) that laid hands upon Timothy, when he was called to the Ministry of the word. You see therefore that at the ordaining of Timothy they were presbyteri elders or Ministers of the word, which gave this grace by the imposition of their hands, which you say cannot be given but by Bishops. Now if presbyteri Ministers of the word, may ordain other by impositiō of hands. thē I trust we shall have you more favorable hereafter to y ^e Ministry here in England. If we have nothing else to say for it, yet at the least because they who in these last times have been the instruments of God to reform Religion, and have ordained others to serve in the Ministry of the word and Sacraments, were presbyteri: having from your Church imposition of hands, whereby there is so great grace given as you say.

True it is that imposisition of hands was a consecration and putting a parte of men to serve in the Ministry of the word, by attending upon reading, exhortation, and doctrine: according as the Apostle declareth in this fourth chapter of Timothy: for when he hath willed Timothy to attend upon reading, exhortation, and doctrine, forthwith signifying that he was called thereunto, and that it was his function to the end he might thereby the more be touched with the matter, he addeth these words: Neglect not that gift or function which was committed unto thee by imposition of hands.

This mark of that vocatiō which doeth consist in attending upon exhortation and doctrine continued in your Church, Tanquam cadauer verae vocationis, as it were a carkas of a true calling: for you attended not upon the word setting it forth truly by exhortation and doctrine, which was the life of that calling: but found a greater gain to get money by, in attending vpō the sale of masses and pardons, having great gain not only by thē that were living: but also by those that were long ago departed: so that in very deed there was nothing remaining beside the corps of the true calling. Unto this carkas and corps of the true calling, it pleased the Lord in that great mercy wherewith he loved us, when we were enemies unto him: now again in these latter days after so long want thereof, to breath in life & vital spirits: giving unto diverse who had no more beside the old mark of that calling, not only gifts of knowledge to be able: but of zeal also to be willing & boulde, even whē the market of your Inuentions & Traditions was the greatest to publish the Gospel of God, & to beat down your inventions by doctrine & exhortatiō out of the word: giving forth evident testimonies thereby, that they were the true & lawful ministers of Christ, bebecause they had the truth and life of the Ministry, which in your Church was wanting, in as much as they did attend upon exhortation and doctrine, according to the truth of the word, whereunto in the Primitive Church men were appointed by imposition of hands. You speak nothing here of that which is principal, that is of the election unto that place and function after due examination had before, both of life and learning, without the which all your purest Canons account him as a Leyman, & appoint grievous punishment for him that shall otherwise ordain him: but so you have the shadow, you pass not for the body: so you may enjoy the least of the accessories, you can willingly want the principal. The occasion that you have offered in ascribing so much to the imposition of hands, hath drawn me beside my purpose and meaning to speak, as you have already heard touching that matter.

Assertion.

For the fourth the Prophet saith. In omnem terram exiuit sonus eorum, & in fines orbis terrae verba eorum, viz. Apostolorum. Isaiah the Prophet saith. Fluēt ad eum (scilicet montem Zion) omnes gentes, adorabunt eum omnes Reges, & omnes gentes seruient ei (inquit Propheta regius). & alibi. Apud te laus in Ecclesia magna. Et iterum copiosa apud eum redemptio. Eritis mihi testes in Jerusalem (inquit Christus) & in omni Judea, & Samaria, & us{que} ad vltimum terrae. In sole posuit tabernaculū suum (inquit Propheta. ) Non potest ciuitas abscondi super montem posita: ne{que} accendunt lucernam, & ponunt eam sub modio, sed super candelabrum, vt luceat omnibus qui in domo sūt (inquit Christus. Turpis est (inquit August.) omnis pars vniuerso suo non congruens: tu cùm te partem cum Christi corporis membrum existimari velis, quae tamē ab hoc vniuerso Christi corpore quae ab omnibus his qui christiani, qui catholici, qui orthodoxi censentur quamlibet magnis & locorum & temporum interuallis inter se desiunctis tā admirably consensu obseruari vides, vt ne{que} temporum diuersitas, ne{que} linguarum varietas, ne{que} locorum ingens intercapedo laedere concordiam eorum potuerint: Sed similes lirae sint & semper fuerint, quae multas quidē & diuersas habet chordas, vnam tamen symphoniā & sonorum concentum vnū amittit. Tuinquā, eum hoc vniuerso us{que} eo nō congruis, vt in despectum vniuersi Christi corporis contraria potius facias omnia. Quid esse potest turpius? Quid indignius homine christiano? aut quae potest esse nota illustrior, qua te non Christi colligentis verum satanae spargētis ministrū esse cuiuis cōstare queat? Haec Aug.

Multa sunt (inquit dictus Aug.) quae in gremio Ecclesiae me iustissime teneant quae sequuntur.

Tenet consensio populorum at{que} gentium.

Tenet authoritas miraculis inchoata, spe nutrita, charitate aucta, vetustate firmata.

Tenet ab ipsa seed Petri Apostoli, cui pascendas oues suas post resurrectionem dominus commendauit us{que} ad praesentem Episcopatum successio sacerdotumi.

Tenet postremo ipsum catholicae nomē, quod nō sine causa inter multas heresies sic ecclesia sola obtinuit, vt cū omnes haeretici se catholicos dici velint, quaerēti tamen peregrino alicui vbi ad catholicam conueniatur nullus haereticorum vel basilicam suam vel domum audeat ostendere. Haec ill.

Catholicam dicit toto orbe diffusam quia diuersorum haereticorū ecclesia ideo catholicae non dicuntur, quia per loca at{que} per suas quas{que} prouincias continentur: haec vero à solis ortu us{que} ad occasum vnius fidei splendere diffunditur. Non est igitur obscura catholica, non potest abscondi ciuitas super montem posita, non potest ignorari mons qui impleuit vniuersam faciem terrae.

Now we that be the catholiques are ready to show and prove, that the church which we profess hath had and hath all the said four marks in her, which also had her beginning with Christ, his Apostles, and primitive church, and doeth derive her authority faith and doctrine from them, in a continual succession of Bishops: which is a moste evident mark of the true Church and Doctrine: as all the said with diverse others famous and learned ancient Authors affirmeth: of the which some were of the Primitive Church, & therefore the meetest judges thereof.

Answeare.

TOuchinge the fourth noate of the church, that it is catholic or universal, if you set it against particularity, meaning that the church is not bound to any particular place or person we do embrace it as a certain truth: But if you will have the Church always discerned by the greater multitude, the scriptures will not suffer us to join with you in that. Your testimonies out of the Scriptures, as that of Isaie the seconde, and the testimonies next following out of the Psalms: do prove that many people shall be brought to the true knowledge & worship of god. For the universal note [all] is so takē in the scriptures. And I am persuaded that you do not think that all people and nations in general shall be brought to be of the true Church: but as for comparison, whether that the number shall be greater or less than they that are not brought to the faith, they do make no mention thereof.

The other testimonies do declare that the truth shall come into many places, but whether those places shall be moe or fewer than the rest, or whether the greater mumber of the inhabitātes of those places shall be gained by the truth unto God, they do not speak any word thereof: yet I think that is the matter that you would willingly establish hereby. Your last witness out of the Gospel, if it be granted you that it is spoken of the church in general, yet will it make nothing for universality, unless any will imagine, that whatsoever is visible or not hidden, is thereby forthwith made general & common to all persons and places. You allege a large testimony for this universality, & do quote in your margent August. lib. 3. confess. cap. 8. Where there is no more of all you have alleged to be found, save the first line, which is: Turpis enim omnis pars est suo vniuerso non congruens. Every part is evil favored, that agreeth not with his whole. This Authority telleth us what worketh the disgrace of a part, even this not to be agreeable to that whole whereof he is part: As for your purpose it is to prove another thing, that multitude is the beauty & the right note of the Church: howe that cā be proved out of this place I leave it to your better consideratiō, whē you shall have marked those words y ^t do immediately go before this place. Quae autē contra mores hominū sunt flagitiapro morū diuersitate vitanda sunt, vt pactū inter se ciuitatis aut gentis, consuetudine vel lege firmatū, nulla ciuis aut peregrini libidine violetur. I fear your Informer hath of purpose concealed the place, from whence he hath feche that, which he coupleth with this sentence as if it were annexed thereunto: least he should receive a wound that hardly would be healed, where he would gladly at the least seem to give one.

The words are directed against one man, who differeth from all that are called Christians in any place. This would help you if you had to deal against a sect that had but one patron, or against a man that would be accounted a Christian, and yet for all that in doctrine be contrary to all Christians. It is to weak to stand against a religion, that sundry countries, Provinces & Kingdoms do embrace. Before I had Augustine with a wrong direction, now I have his name without any direction at all Such words as you have set down here are found in his book contra Epistolam fundamenti, where you conceal that, which utterly overthroweth all the four notes of your Church, and proveth them to be altogether insufficient to make true proof where the Church is.

These are the words that follow in that place. Apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me iuuitet ac teneat, sola personat veritatis pollicitatio, quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur, vt in dubium venire non possit, praeponenda est illis rebus omnibus quibus in Catholica teneor. But among you where there is none of these things (saith Augustine: ) that may hold me, there soundeth the only promise of truth, which if it be shown so manifest that it cannot come in doubt: it is to be preferred before all those things, by which I am holden in a Catholic Church. He had spoken before of Unity and agreement of people, of authority begun with miracles, & increased with charity, and holy conversation, of antiquity, and succession of Bishops from Peter unto his time, & also of universality: and yet he professeth that the truth when it is made manifest and plain, is to carry us against them all. If the truth be bound unto Unity, successiō, & universality, so that these be the marks whereby we are directed to the true church, and therefore to the truth, by what commission dare Augustine to put them a sunder, whom Almighty God hath joined together (as you think) to continue one forever. For if they be never sundered, why maketh he a supposell of that that never happneth, especially dealing with them, that were persuaded that it was not so strange a thing, but that it might yea and had already happened? Or why setteth he, the truth in specie, that is: The truth made open & plainly manifested: against those marks of the Church: when as the truth, whether in parables, plain speech, or howsoever, is never found sundered from them as you think? Moreover why doeth he trouble him self with comparing of things together, affirming that the one shall more persuade then the other: if it be impossible for the one to persuade, but not for the other. For comparison is of those that be like, but there is no resemblance between a thing impossible, and that which may be done. Last of all howe agree you with Augustine, that saith, The plain and undoubted truth persuadeth more than them all: When as you are of opinion, not only that the truth cannot be had plainly, but that it cannot be had at all, but in and by them. You see that Augustine in this place utterly overthroweth the marks and notes that you have made of your Church, letting us understand that the truth may be sundered from all, even from the succession of Bishops, which you make so great an account of: that (in your opinion) heaven and earth may sooner come together, then those two be parted and put asunder. It standeth you upon to make this breach up again, if it possibly can be performed of you, for it hath undone all that you have trauayled in all this time to establish. It was not without cause therefore that Augustine both came in and went out so like a stranger, as no man could know (when once he had made his apparaunce) where too have him again howe glad soever he would have been, to have spoken with him. But let it be admitted that Augustine spoke of a matter that could not come to pass, when he said, that the truth made plain and manifest, was a note of the Church to be preferred before unity, succession universality &c. That which followeth will declare against whom he objecteth the name of Catholic: even against those heretics, who when they would be called Catholic, yet can but show one Church or one house, where their religion is professed. For these are his words. The Church alone hath so obtained the name of Catholic, that where as all Heretics would be called Catholics, yet when a stranger shall ask where men meet at the Catholic Church, none of the Heretics dare show him either their Temple or their house. If England, Scotland, Denmark, Suetia, Saxony, Heluetia, Retia, Vallis Tellina, Brunswicke, Rhene, Hessia, Wittenburg, Russia, Brandeburge, with the great Cities through the whole Country of Germany could show but one Church, one house, & one province or little Shire among them all, where their religion were professed, or if all these great kingdoms common wealths & countries could by some conversion be turned into one little province, temple, or house, then might this authority, or that that followeth out of Augustine, have some color against us. But since, that Gospel which we profess, at the first did spread it self abroad into infinite places, and was generally received, until the dominion of that man of sin, the Pope: under whom for a long time it was greatly darkened, and now since the late reviving again thereof, hath greatly enlarged her dominion & shut you out, not of some few houses or provinces: but out of a number of kingdoms, dominions, common wealths, & countries, daily getting ground of you (be your Tyranny and persecution never so great) your authorities out of Augustine can stand you in no steed. As concerning the latter part of your last authority, which affirmeth that the Catholic Church by the clearness of one faith spreadeth out itself from the East unto the West, if it be taken so generally as the words seem too give out of it: it pulleth clean frō you your title of [Catholic]. For you cannot deny but that all the Greek Churchs utterly renounce the authority of the Bishop of Rome, & the Churches that are scattered here and there throughout all Asia and Africa, in like manner do not acknowledge it. As for Europe you heard me even now recite what kingdoms, common wealths and countries in it, abhorreth the Pope and all his detestable enormities. And in those kingdoms and countries where the Pope is received, this I dare say, for you do prove it by fire & fagot, that there is no country, not Italy it self excepted, where there are not great nūbers of people, that from the bottom of their hearts do detest the Pope. And therefore if you measure universality by place and person, as you are wont to do: taking that to be universal which is received in all places, and of all persons, you see that your religion cometh far short of a catholic religion. You close up three lines in the ende closely together with Augustine his words, as if they were not only spoken at one time & with one mouth, but even also with one breath. Whereas he hath not one such word there, it is wholly your own application and conclusion, it is none of his. If a man would take such liberty unto him self, he might soon beguile the ignorant reader. I could the better have borne this without making any mention thereof, if I had not seen the like in you before, and therefore I cannot but admonish you. This place of Augustine doeth in deed make war against the Family of love, who bring in a religion that never was heard of since the beginning of the world, received publicly in any one Province, or taught in any one Temple, from the beginning: As for those whom it pleaseth you to cal Puritans, when you tell me what grounds, of religiō they hold dissēting from the truth, I will give them warning to be in a readiness to resist you. I know none in England that either would be called by that name, or deserve to be called by it beside the Papist, and the Family of love. For the Papists are so over pure and perfect in their own judgment, that they sell the very excrements and superfluity of their works unto others: And as for the Family of love, after that a few years of their Apprentishyp be expired, & they begin to set up for themselves, they are of opinion, it is no more possible for thē afterward to sin, than is possible for light to become darkness. If those be the true marks of the church in that sense which you do take them, I see no cause why the Scribes and Pharisees, might not justly against our Savior have claimed the title of the Church. For they were at great unity among them selves, so that their Church might well have been called Vna: And they abounded in prayer, fasting, and alms, which you do simply set down without any addition, for the fruits of holiness: and therefore their Church was Sancta: Moreover they sat in Moses seat, and succeeded him in the Chair, and therefore they were justly entitled unto succession: and their Church lawfully called Prophetica: which was the same before Christ that Apostolica is now: and last of all the greater number went with them against Christ, and therefore their Church was Catholica. It is manifest thē that you have said nothing for your Church, which the scribes & pharisees might not say sor them selves. And if your notes were true, Christ Jesus could never have prevailed against them, having the true notes of the Church, and therefore being the true church, against the which nothing can prevail. The notes that are given by the Apostles them selves of the Church, and whereby they were led to acknowledge any people to be the church of God, were two in mumber: faith in Christ Jesus: and love towards his saints: according as it is written by the apostle. We give thanks unto God, even the father of our Lord Jesus Christ, always praying for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of your love toward all Saints. It appeareth hereby, that the Apostle did acknowledge thē for menbers of the Church, using them as brethren in giving thanks to God, & praying for them: after that these tokens of the Church, too wit, faith in Christ Jesus, & love towards his Saints, did appear in them through the preaching of the Gospel. The same is confirmed in the Epistle to the Ephesians in the same words. Therefore after I heard of the faith which you have in the Lord Jesus, and love toward all the Saints, I ceased not to give thanks for you, making mention always of you in my prayers. And not only the same matter, but even the very same manner and form of words, is used throughout his epistles, where he hath any occasion offered to touche the same. As in the first epistle to the Thessalonians: and in the second also, and the first chapter. In the Epistle to Philemon. In like manner he rehearseth these same two marks: of faith in Christ Jesus, and love towards all Saints. These were marks that the Apostles were directed by to discern of the Church, they thought these sufficient causes to move them to think of others as their brethren, and the dear Children of God, when as they thorough the preaching of the word, were knit unto Christ by faith, and unto his children that did serve him after that word, by love and sincere affection of heart and good will towards them. These marks that are noted as the tokens of GOD his children in those first and mother Churches, cannot be found with you. For the word soundeth not among you, which should discover by the sight of that which the Lord in justice doth require, so great imperfection to be in us: & withal so much mercy to be in Christ, for men that are confounded in themselves: as would provoke us by faith to repose our selves upon him and his mercies. As for the doctrine of your Church, it so upholdeth the aptness add inclination of man to do well, the liberty and freedom of his will, that he cannot come to the sight and knowledge of any so great want as might send him hungerly after Christ, and his mercies, to cleave thereunto by faith: besides that, it doeth so fearfully give out the affection & disposition of this our mediator, as if a man could not come to the speech of him in the least matter, before half the court of heaven were moved for that matter, in his behalf, and should befreend him therein, which turneth our affection & affiance, comfort & confidence rather toward them, then towards him. Wherevpon any man may clearly see and understand, that this Church of yours is not knit unto Christ by faith, And howe it is affected towards his Saints who are begotten and borne again by the immortal seed of the word, all the world may judge, and their blood that hath been so plentifully spilled, hath left in every kingdom and country sufficient witnesses thereof against you.

Assertion.

The true faith and doctrine from the beginning hath ben preserved and kept first by tradition, and then by writing and tradition, in a continual succession of Bishops and Priests: whereupon S. Paul writing to the Thessalonians saith, State & tenete traditions quas didicistis, sieve per sermon̄, sieve per epistolam nostram. Also writing to the Corinthians, wherein he reproved them for abusing of the blessed Sacrament, in the latter end he saith, Caetera autē cū venero disponā: which was never put in writing but always hath continued by tradition in the said succession unto this day, and which things are used at this day. For we do use diverse things, yea, such as are necessary and meet to be used, which the scripture maketh no mention of and also otherwise then the Primitive Church did use, and now allowed of the protestants, as the baptizing of young children, which Sacrament was not used in the primitive Church but twice in the year, Easter & Whitsuntide. The changing of the Sabbath day, from the Saturday to the Sunday. In the primitive Church they were in a council holden commanded to abstain A sanguine & suffocato, (vt patet in actis) From the which we are discharged not by Scripture, but only by the authority of the Church, who saith now in the geneneral councils as the Apostles and Elders said then there, having the same holy spirit with them that they had then that is to say, Visum est spiritui sancto & nobis, That now by commandment you shall not abstain A sanguine & suffocato. For such things being not matters of faith, the Church hath authority to alter and change according to the time and disposition of the people. And also that you shall keep the Sunday for the Sabbath day, and that you shall baptize children as soon as they be born &c. which things have ben by traditiō received frō our elders, which is the sure rule that directeth us to truth, by the said testimony of Jeremiah the Prophet. viz: State super vias, & videte & interrogate de semitis antiquis, quae sit via bona, & ambulate in ea, & inuenietis requiem animabus vestris.

Answeare.

YOu labor earnestly for succession, & therefore do give the attempt once again to prove, that true faith and doctrine hath been preserved and kept from the beginning, first by traditiō, & then by writing & tradition, in a continual succession of Bishops & Priests. You allege for proof of this, that which is writ̄ by the Apostle to the Thessalonians: State & tenete traditions quas didicistis sieve per sermon̄ sieve per epistolam nostram: Keep such things as you have learned, either by our word, or by our writing: he exhorteth thē to observe whatsoever the Apostles had moved them unto, either in their sermons, or by their letters: but he promiseth not the Church, that there shall be such fidelity in all who are to succeed them, that a man may safely depend upon their words and writings: and this is the matter that you have taken in hand to prove. If you could have made the Apostle speak thus: Tenete traditions quas discetis sieve per sermonem, sieve per epistolam, non a nobis tantùm, verumetiam a succedentibus nobis Episcopis quibuscunque: It would have made something for your succession. If you had but entered into the least consideration that possibly might be of the matter, setting affection aside, you should soon have discerned, that it was impossible to establish a necessity binding all times to come: by a verb that noteth only the time past: Keep those things (saith the Apostle) which you have learned. And no less absurd, to infer a succession, from words that mention those only who are in present possession: keep those things saith he, which you have learned of us, not that which you shall learn of our successors. I do greatly meruel that ever you could be brought to build a matter of so great importance in your judgment, upon so feeble a foundation. For before this foundation shall be able to beat any such weight as you have laid upon it, these grauntes must freely be given unto you. First that an exhortation to do a thing, necessarily inferreth that thing both to have been done by them that were so exhorted, & by all that have ever come after them: for upon Paul his exhortatiō to the Thessalonians, that they should keep such things as he had taught them either by word or writing: you gather a continual practice to have been made of those things by them, and all that have come after them. You might as probably reason thus, that because A Preacher once gave exhortation to his Parishioners too beware of wrath, and to maintain love and concerd: Therefore you are sure there shall never any discord be heard of in that town after that day, unto the ende of the world. Secondly this must be granted unto you also, that an exhortation made indifferently to all the faithful people of Thessalonia: commandeth a practice thereof to Bishops and Priests only. For the Apostle arming the church of Thessalonia against Antichrist his forcible delusions, which the wicked shall be given up to believe, because they have refused the love of the truth: willeth not one sort of them particularly, but all of them generally, steadfastly to embrace and hold fast those instructions, which they had received from him and the Apostles, either by word or writing. Thirdly, that words spoken without any limitation at all, are only justified in them, who do in order succeed one another: for you will have these traditions to be kept in a continual succession of Bishops and Priests only. Fourthly, that words mencioning things delivered, and the manner how they are delivered, do necessarily infer, howe they have and shallbee preserved: for the Apostle telleth them that they are to keep such things as have been delivered unto them, whether it were by word or by writing: but he bindeth them not to any certain manner of keeping of thē, and much less to that manner, which he had delivered them by: as if it should be unlawful to keep any of that in writing, for the help of their memories: which he had delivered only in preaching. Now out of words that declare the manner of delivering, you necessarily will conclude the manner of keeping. If all these things were granted unto you, you might have some color for that matter which you are about to prove: but as the place is of it self, I do not remember that ever I heard, so much weight to have been laid upon so weak a body.

Traditions (as the Apostle speaketh of them) are delivered partly by writing, and partly by word of mouth: so that tradition is affected towards the writ̄ word of God, as the general or universal towards his particular: you make them as two several members, one diverse from another. Consider therefore well where you have received this distinction, you may see that you have it not from the Apostle, for he distinguisheth otherwise. I would willingly learn, how you can prove, that matters of faith have been kept partly in tradition, (as you say) from the beginning. Irenaeus saith otherwise, in the first Chapter of his third book, as you heard before: Non per alios dispositionē salutis nostrae cognouimus quàm per eos, per quos Euangelium peruenit ad nos, quod quidem tunc praeconiauerunt, postea per Dei voluntatem in scriptures nobis tradiderunt: fundamentum fidei nostrae futurum. We know not our salvation by any other, then those by whom the Gospel hath come unto us, which then they preached, and afterward by the will of God left it in writing, to be the pillar of our faith. He saith that our faith must lean upon that which the Apostles first preached, and afterward by the will of God, left in writing: and not as you would have it, partly upon that, and partly upon tradition.

You bring another testimony out of the Epistle to the Corinthes, where the Apostle promiseth that he will order other things, when he cometh: to prove that the true faith hath been partly kept in tradition. If they be matters of faith which the Apostle speaketh of, in that place: tell us what they be: if they be no matters of Faith, but outward orders, then you speak not to the matter, which you have taken in hand. For we deny not, but the Church may order outward things, as shall be thought most meet to edify with all.

That the Sabbath day is changed frō the Saturday unto Sunday: that the Sacrament of Baptism is more often administered thē it was in the primitive church: that we are not restrained now à suffocato & sanguine: Maketh nothing against us: who know and profess, that outward things of that nature that these be of, may be retained or refused by the church, as they shall perceive them tend to edifying, or otherwise. Look you well unto it, who are of opinion, and do profess, that the Apostles doctrine & traditions, are faithfully reserved, in a perpetual succession of Bishops, and delivered from one to another. How faithfully do you reserve them, when you take liberty as you do profess, to change them? I say it standeth you upon, to look how you change any of their traditions, who take upon you to be faithful reseruers of the same, and men that are put in trust to deliver them over unto their posterity. If any man shall consider advisedly, howe your proofs do confirm in this place, the matter that you have taken in hand to prove: he shall hardly get them hang together.

You say we are discharged of our abstinence from strangled and blood, not by Scripture: but by the authority of the Church: who saith now in her general councils, as then she did: Visum est spiritui Sancto & nobis: let me ask you this question, how it cometh to pass that of one thing, the Church should say: Visum est spiritui Sancto & nobis: And again of the same thing: Non visum est spiritui Sancto, & nobis: but by the Scripture, which telleth us, that such outward things are to be done and left undone: as they shall be thought to edify our brethren or otherwise. So that to maintain peace and amity, between the Gentiles, & the Jews who were so persuaded of Moses law, it was expedient for a time during this their persuasion, that the Gentiles should abstain from their liberty: but after that the Jews were persuaded, that the ceremonies must give place to Christ and his Gospel, it was not expedient they should abstain from their liberty any longer, neither did that rule of the Scriptures, which restrayneth things lawful of themselves, unto that which is expedient: any longer bind them. The Church said in that council. Visum est spiritui Sancto & nobis, ne quid amplius imponeremus vobis oneris, quàm haec necessaria: After they had debated it by the Scriptures that Moses law, was not necessarily to be urged upon the Gentiles: so that the reason why they say it seems good unto the holy Ghost and us, is because they had learned by the Scriptures, which are the writings of the Holy Ghoste: that the Gentiles were free, from the bondage of the ceremonial law.

The old way that the Prophet willeth them to inquire after, is that way, which is described in his word, as appeareth in the nyententh Verse of that Chapter, which you have alleged. If you would inquyre after that way, these controversies between you and us, would soon be at an end.

Assertion.

Now to prove that lawful succession of Bishops and Priests ought to be heard and followed, which is the thing that continueth the truth, which was received in the beginning, appointed by God, to continue for every age to the end of the same: I will bring forth examples out of the very Scriptures. As first: Cain ought to have obeyed Adam, to have remained with Seth, & not to have constituted a new company, in such sort, that there should be one City of the children of Men, and another of the children of God. Nemrod ought to have kept himself in the succession of Seth, continued by Noah, and not to have made himself a Prince by force, by which occasion, the Faith began to be abandoned. Ishmael and Esau, should have tarried in the succession, and not have suffered their offspring the Agarenes and Edomites, to leave the old Religion of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Core, Dathan, and Abiram, should not have forsaken, the succession of Levi and of Aaron. Jeroboam should not have forsaken Moses chair.

Manasseh the brother of Iaddus, should not have forsaken the same succession, and have gone to build a new temple, in the mount Garrizim. Onias should not have forsaken the known succession at Jerusalem, and have built a Temple in Egypt. The Samaritans should not have sacrificed but only in Jerusalem. Then Christ coming according to the Prophesies of the said law ended that succession and began a new, from the which beginning unto the ende of the world, no man whatsoever he be, ought to forsake that ordinary succession that then began, but if he will do well, must keep himself therein until Christ come again. These of the primitive Church, kept themselves with in the said succession, as Dionysius Saint Paul his scholar, Polycarpus Saint John the Evangelist his scholar, Ignatius, Clemens, Irenaeus, Abdias, and diverse others. Now from this succession departed Marcion, Arius, Eunomius, Nestorius, Pelagius, Eutiches, with many others. Then in the said continued succession followed S. Basel, Saint Augustine, Saint Ambrose, Chrysostom, Tertullian, Saint Jerome, and many others. And from them departed Jovinian, Heluidius, The Donatists with diverse others. Now we have and do keep in still with them in that continual succession, and many hath and doeth depart from us, and as Saint John saith: Ex nobis prodierunt, sed non erant ex nobis: nam si fuissent ex nobis, permansissent vti{que} nobiscum. And as S. Agustine witnesseth: Exire non sanae Doctrinae est. And Saint Ambrose saith: Omnem legis veteris seriem, fuisse typum futuri. Wherefore as they continued in the truth, with the former principal succession, which held themselves there in the figure: so do they now in the time of grace and truth, by observing that order of succession, in the priesthood of the new law.

Answeare.

IF you mean by lawful successiō, those who shall succeed in the principal succession: that is the succession of truth, there is no question of that, but such are to be heard, as do bring the truth of the Apostles Doctrine with them: but if you do bind the truth to persons, who have succeeded the Apostles in place, you know what hath been proved against this opiniō before, in your third note of the church, whereunto I refer you. You never read that Cain, Nemrod, Ishmael, Esau, Core, Dathan, and Abiram, professed a new religion and a diverse worship of God from the rest: the scripture chargeth them with no such matter, but with corrupt life and wicked conversation: You contend for doctrine and religion to keep that with in a succession of Bishops and Priests, and to charge them who depart from that succession, with corruption in religion. To what ende then serveth this number and assembly of men, corrupt in life, but not touched with heresy, unless you think that whosoever is corrupt in life, mainteyneth by and by a false and corrupt religiō: and maketh a public departure from the truth: either else you had been persuaded, that this number would have made me afraid, once to have adventured, the trial of their strengths? Let it be granted, that all these men here severally set down and noted, as departers from the true succession: have mayteyned Idolatry, and erected a false worship of God, departing from the truth and true profession: What can you gather here upon, but that it is not lawful to depart from those who uphold and maintain true religion? Now whether you or we be the maynteyners of the truth that is the controversy, and therefore you may give these men good leave to return from whence they came, for any help that you are like to have from them. It may be if they were better examined, that they would say and speak greatly against you: for Cain a wicked man, had no blessing nor mercy for all his succession, albeit the birthright was his, and therefore the Priesthoode appertained unto him by lawful succession. Ishmael the elder, and therefore a lawful successor in the Priesthoode, yet a wicked member, and left unto posterity no tradition but of persecution. Esau the elder and therefore in the succession of the Priesthoode, but yet hated of the Lord, and one who reserved few good traditions, that ever I could read of to posterity. Core, Dathan, and Abiram, of the tribe of Levi, lawfully entitled unto the office of the Priesthoode: the traditions that are delivered unto posterity from them, are, that they were rank rebels against the Lord, and against Moses his annointed. We are ready to prove, that the Evangelist noteth your Church, and that you are they who have departed from the Apostles, and the ancient churches: and for proof of this, we appeal not only unto the writings of the Holy Ghost, the Canonical Scriptures: but also unto that testimony, which Irenaeus before hath given of true knowledge, and of the state of the ancient Church how to discern it, and by what marks: and therefore we say with Augustine against you: Exire non est sanae Doctrinae. And yet for all that it is not simply and without respect true, for if the Doctrine be not sound, it is as lawful to depart from it, as it is unlawful, to go from that which is good. So that to depart from any Doctrine, is not otherwise lawful or unlawful: but according as the Doctryne it self is good or bad, from the which he doeth depart. All of these were wicked members, and yet within the privilege of this succession, which you would make such a defense against corruption, as that a man needed not to fear anymore, if once he had got that sanctuary upon his back. Moreover the greatest evils that they are blamed for in the Scriptures, we are committed of them, before they left the society of the Church, and children of God: while yet they were within the succession, howsoever you would seem to persuade us, that they never departed from goodness, before they had taken their leave of succession. You affirm out of Ambrose, that the order in the old law, was a type and figure of that, which should be in the truth under Christ, and therefore as the truth was joined with the succession then, so is it now: but then (say I) it was not always joined with the succession of Priests, and therefore it is not to be holden for a truth, that now it should be so. And thus I prove that in the old law, the truth went not always with succession. In the Church of Israel, the ordinare succession of Priests was interrupted and broken of, as appeareth in the first book of the Kings: and yet there was a Church and great number of faithful people, that kept the purity of Doctrine, and never bowed their knees unto Baal.

You may hereby plainly perceive, that the truth and purity of the worship of God, hath been reserved: when yet the lawful and ordinary succession of Priests failed. And the contrary is as plain also, that there hath been an ordinary and visible succession of Priests: when notwithstanding the truth was banished, & most gross errors received. For at Jerusalem in the Reign of the Kinge Achaz, there was an outward and visible succession of Priests, yet the temple of God was shut up, and Uriah the Priest, at the commandment of the Kinge, did publicly profane the worship of God, as appeareth 2. Chronic. cap. 28.24. and in the second book of the Kings cap. 16.15.16. And in like manner at the coming of Christ, there was at Jerusalem an ordinary succession, for they succeeded Moses and sat in his seat: & yet for all that, their doctrine most corrupt, and the true church warned oftentimes by our savior Christ, to take heed of the leaven of the Scribes and Pharisees, who had the ordinary succession from Moses. You may therefore plainly see, that before Christ in the old law, there was purity of doctrine, without ordinary and visible succession of Priests, and likewise ordinary and outward succession, without sincerity of Doctrine.

Wherupon I do conclude w ^t Ambrose, that because the order of the Church in the old law, was a type of the state in the new law under Christ: that truth of doctrine, is not now bound to an ordinary succession of Bishops. And if in the government of that people, when all things were so visible and outward, for the capacity of them, (the manner it self of worship not excepted:) there was interruption of visible and ordinary succession: and the promise of succession was justified to be but with condition, so long as they did observe the law of God: howe much more in this time, when the worship of God is not so external, but inward in spirit and truth, will the Lord not be bound unto succession, when there shallbee a manifest defection, and falling away from the obedience of his word. And you cannot be ignorant, that there is in the new Testament, a plain foretelling of a general defection, which can no more stand, with a continual ordinary succession, then can Christ with Antichrist. And least any man should imagine, that the Apostle doth but speak of some particular declining of this or that Church: the circumstances of the text, do so set it forth: as they do leave no doubt in the matter. For it is said indefinitely, that he shall sit in the temple of God, & not with any restraint, that he shall sit in this or that temple, Church or place. And also, it is said, that his coming shall be with all power, that all may receive judgment, which have not believed the truth: so that the judgment is not to come particularly upon someone particular Church or place, but generally upon all that have not believed and loved the truth. And if succession have such privileges with it: that there is no danger of deceivable doctrine, where it can be justified to continue, why should not the Greek Churches, as well be believed for the truth of their doctrine, being able to derive their succession from the Apostles, as well as you. If succession have in it such a blessing, in spreading out it self without interruption, how happeneth it, that the Churches planted at Antioch, Ephesus, and Corinth &c. have felt no greater benifite by it? those can truly say, that the Apostles planted them & appointed Bishops over them. If succession then be so fruitful in it self, what reason can be rendered, why it should not take their, which may not be given in like manner, why it may likewise be barren with you? They that shall read the Prophets with any diligence, and conscience to be instructed in the state of the Church before Christ, and under the law: shall soon perceive howe far it is from the truth, to take warrant from thence to bind the true faith & doctrine to a continual succession of priests. For thus saith Ierem. of the priests in his time: The Priests said not: Where is the Lord? & they that should minister the law knew me not: the pastors also offended against me, & the Prophets prophesied in Baal. Ezekiel likewise telleth us, what the Prophets were who taught the people in his time. O Israel (saith he) thy Prophets are like Foxes in the waste places, they have seen vanity and lying divination, saying the Lord saith it, and the Lord hath not sent them, therefore thus saith the Lord, because you have spoken vanity, and seen lies, therefore behold I am against you. Letting pass the time of Jeroboam, when all things were most corrupt in Religion: I will conclude with Malachi, touching the ordinary state of the Priests in his time. The Priests lips (saith Malachi) should preserve knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth. But ye are gone out of the way, you have caused many to fall by the law, ye have broken the covenant of Leuy, saith the Lord of hosts, therefore have I also made you to be despised, and vile before all people.

You may see what a dangerous doctrine it is, to tie the truth unto a succession of Priests: and that if a man would so have done under the law, he should have given sentence against the Prophets that were extraordynarily raised up, to reform both Priests and people, with those Priests and Prophets, who had their office by orderly and ordinary succession & yet were seducers of the people. I do therefore conclude with Ambrose against you, seeing the order and state of the old law was the type of the new: & in the old Testament, the Priests who had succession of place and function, sometime did leave the truth & embraced pestilent doctrine: that therefore succession now is no certain mark, whereby a man may always be sure to be directed unto the truth. You have hitherto contended for a succession continual and without interruption from the Apostles, to have remained among you, as the safest treasure house of of the truth: but this succession without interruption, you cannot find as yet: I pray you give me leave in a few words to try, not whether you have a succession without interruption, but whether you have any succession at all from the Apostles.

The charge and office of the Apostles, is declared in the Gospel after Sainte Matthew. Go and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father, and the Son, & the holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I have commanded you.

Their office consisteth in teaching and Preaching: (for they are charged to go and teach all Nations) and in administration of the Sacraments: and least any should imagine that they are set at liberty, to teache whatsoever liked them selves: there followeth by and by a restraint in these words: Teaching them to observe whatsoever I have commanded you: If any claim to be their successors in that office, he must be a Teacher and Preacher unto men, not a sacrificer for them: And that which he teacheth may not be the invention of man, but that which is commanded from God.

They therefore do necessarily enforce upon their successors an office & ministry of Preaching and Teaching: and that of no other thing, besides the same which God hath commanded. Where their succession is there is a truth of doctrine, and a teaching ministry thereof, whereby men them selves are offered as slain sacrifices unto God: having their corrupt affections subdued & slain in them by doctrine & exhortatiō out of the word of god. your priests are instituted, not by preching the word of God, to sacrifice mē unto God: but by saying of certain prescript words, to sacrifice for mē unto god: & to make satisfaction for their sins, committed against God. The duty required in an office being as the life thereof, & the place no other then the body: it falleth out, that all the succession which you plead for from the Apostles, (if it were granted you) yet were it no other, then the body of the Apostles succession, without either the life or spirit thereof.

Touching your first demand, to wit, who he was that first preached that faith w ^c we do now profess: I do answer w ^t the Apostle that it was christ Jesus. To the other part of your demand, for the successiō of bishops, to wit, who was the 1. 2. & 3. bishop, &c. I have already answered in the 3. note of the church. where your own witnesses have confessed, that successiō of bishops is no note for us in these later times whereby to try the church. Let it I pray you be lawful to me to move one questiō unto you, & that is, why (seeking confirmatiō & testimony for religiō, you let pass all those who were earewitnesses of y ^e truth, & true religion, & had commission frō the Lord himself, & confirmation of their fidelity herein, under his own hand and seal? Have you not read thus in the 2. to y ^e Heb. The Gospel begā to be preached first by the Lord himself, & afterward it was confirmed unto us by those that heard him, god bearing witness unto thē, by signs & wonders, & diverse gifts of the holy Ghost? Your meaning cannot be good in omitting men so sufficiently authorized, & flying unto others as the doctors & bishops of the primitive church: who when we are come thither, do post us over again to these as the lawful & only sufficient witnesses in these doubts of religiō. The commō saying may be welverified of you, y ^t you would teach us the next way about: for you send us frō the sciptures to the fathers, & when we are come to them, they send us back again to the scriptures. You have heard already in the 3. note of the church, that they examined their succession of bishops by the scriptures, taking it therefore to be good, because their bishops warrāted their expositions by scriptures, & you know what Augustine saith in this matter. Auferantur de medio quae aduersus nos inuicem non ex diuinis canonicis libris, sed aliunde recitamus, quia nolo humanis documentis, sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari. Awaye with those authories that either of us alledgeth against other, because I would have the holy Church to be proved, not by the doctrines of men, but by the word of God. Augustine in like manner sendeth us from councils unto the scriptures. But now saith Augustine to Maximine an Arian, neither may I allege the council of Nice, nor you the council of Arimine to others prejudice: neither stand I bound to the authority of this, nor you to the authority of that, but by the authority of the scriptures, which are witnesses proper to neither of us, but stand indifferent to us both: Let matter be compared with matter, cause with cause, & reason with reason. If the fathers send us from their own writings, to the scriptures: from succession, to the scriptures, & from councils, to the scriptures: why do you omit the scriptures, and send us to succession, to fathers, & to councils? If the truth be bound to the fathers & councils, and the true sense only there to be found, what mean they themselves, to send us from thence unto the scriptures? for that were to speak (as you do afterward) to feed us with the shell, and to keep from us the kernel: that is the sense and understanding of the word, which you affirm to be in their only custody. What need we now to spend either Paper or pains about the names of those books, that all the fathers have written in the Primitive Church? You have had a large offer by that man of famous memory Bishop Jewel, to take your choice among all the learned fathers, and doctors in the Church, six hundredth years after Christ, for the upholding of the grounds & principal points of your religion: what you have said for it the Lord knoweth, and diverse that were before bewitched with it, begun now, (after that they see how little it is that can be said in that behalf) utterly to defy it.

You require to know if our doctrine were the same which they in the primitive Church professed: who they were that did at that time note your going out and departure from the truth, and did inuey and write against it. This question is altogether unnecessary, for when an offfender is taken with the manner, it is a needless labor, to stand upon the examination of them, who were at the deed doing. We have taken you with the manner, that is to say, with doctrine diverse from the Apostles: and therefore neither law nor conscience can force us, to examine them, who were at the deed doing, and witnesses of your first departing. You heard Tertullian before, speaking of the Churches that are far from the Apostles time, say thus: Ipsa haereticorum doctrina, cum Apostolis comparata, ex diuersitate & contrarietate sua, pronunciabit ne{que} Apostoli alicuius Autoris esse, ne{que} Apostolici. The doctrine it self being compared with Apostles, will by the variety and contrariety that is in it pronounce, that neither Apostle, nor yet any Apostolical man, was the author of it. This speaketh Tertullianus of those who lived long after the Apostles times, so that his judgment is plain: you cannot now have this benefit of your Clergy, the matter by the Apostle his testimony, falling cut so heinous and so apparunt against you. For your Mass where one eateth and drinketh all alone, cannot stand with that Doctrine, which the Apostle hath delivered: Take you, and eat you. 1. Corinthians. 11. That doctrine which extolleth the meriting of man, painting his Image smyling and laughing at his own deserts: cannot agree with that Image which the Apostle hath left of the regenerate man, wherein he is painted weeping for his want, and in lamentable speech crying out: Miserable man that I am, who shall deliver me from this body of sin? That Doctrine which sendeth us to the succession of Bishops and Priests, for the Key that openeth and letteth into the truth: cannot agree with that, which commendeth men for examining by the scriptures, the doctrine of the Apostles themselves: men as likely to teach & hold the truth, as any Bishops or Priests since, who, or wheresoever. That doctrine which joineth Saints and Angels with the Lord, in that honor of calling upon them for help: cannot agree with it which saith, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. To conclude, that doctrine which giveth sovereign authority unto the Pope, above all Princes & Bishops wheresoerver: cannot agree w ^t that charge which Christ gave unto his dicsciples, saying: Ye know that the Lord's of the Gentiles have domination over them, and they that are great exercise authority over them, but it shall not be so among you.

It is great injury offered unto the Apostles, the lawful witnesses of the truth, authorized thereunto by the Lord himself, to imagine or give out of them, that they spoke so slenderly, either else so darkly and so doubtfully of the truth: as that heresy and error cannot sufficiently by any light which they have given, be discerned from it: or that they left testimony behind them, sufficient to establish the truth, but not to confute falsehood: when as the Apostle saith, that the scripture given by inspiration of God, is profitable to teach, and also to improve, and to correct, that the man of God may be absolute. Examine it well I pray you with yourself, what should be the cause, that you should shun as rocks, the witnesses which the Lord hath appointed to speak as well against falsehood, as for the truth: being neither content with that witness which they have borne unto the truth, neither willing to stand unto that, which they have delivered against falsehood and error. The way which you prescribe, as it is not necessary: no more can it be any safe kind of dealing. For who have kept the register of those depositions, which men have deposed against you? Have not you yourselves, against whom they were uttered, had the custody of them? What fidelity then can we imagine now likely to be remaining unto them, setting aside the power of the Lord, who can and often doeth reserve, and bring light out of the midst of darkness it self? Moreover, what and if they who did espy it, had no knowledge by writing, to discrie it? When the Pharisees and Scribes at Christ his coming had corrupt true Religion, what books did you read were written against them, and howe able was Joseph, Simeon, Marie, & Anna, to perform that work? Falsehood, is falsehood, albeit no man write against it, and the truth cannot but be the truth, whosoever shall write against it. And therefore your argument for the truth, grounding upon the not writing against it, can carry little credit with it, though it were granted, that no man hath been known to write against it. We are not destitute of witnesses, who at the beginning have espied the entering of your religion, and the departing from the true faith, albeit we stand unto the testimony of the Apostles, as the most sufficient and sound authority. The sixth Council of Carthage, which was about the year of our Lord. 430. where August. and 216. Bishops were assembled, after that they had seen the true and autenticall copies of the Council of Nice falsified by Zozimus, Boniface, and Celestinus three Bishops of Rome, one succeeding another in order, for the supremacy of that sea: concluded with universal consent, that no authority was to be granted unto the Pope, over Africa, or any other foreine Churches: and this universal authority, was the mother of that universal corruption, which followed after in religion. Gregory, who was Bishop of Rome, 600. years after Christ, writing of the Bishop of Constantinople, who would be called universal Bishop, saith thus: In hac eius superbia, quid aliud nisi propinqua iā esse Antichristi tēpora designatur, qui illū videlicet imitatur, qui spretis in sociali gaudio Angelorum legionibus, ad culmen conatus est singularitatis erumpere, dicens supra astra coeli exaltabo soliū meum? In this his pride (meaning the Bishop of Constantinople, who claimed supremacy) what other thing is declared, but that the time of Antichrist is at hand, which followeth him, who despising the equal & felowlike joy of the angels went about to aspire unto the top of singularity, saying: I will exalt my seat above the stars. You see if we had not taken you with the manner, yet had there been sufficient help from witnesses, who were at the dead doing, to have convict you. You would know what became of that Church a thousand years next after the primitive Church, and where she kept all that time. It was six hundredth years after Christ, before the Pope had his universal title, and supreme authority over all Churches: and sometime you cannot deny, but that he must of necessity have, to take away the word of God, from the common & known tongue of the people, that his traditions might have entrance without any contradiction, and men be brought to occupy themselves in them, as in the chief and principal works of Christianity. It was 800. years after Christ before the knowledge of the latin tongue, which was their mother tongue, did altogether decay among the common people, in Italy, France, Spain, and Britain: As for the Greek Church, she never received the Latin tongue, neither yet the Churches in Asia, and Ethiopia, all which time the Pope could not bring in the depth of his deceiveable and damnable doctrine, the candle of God his word, shining out in their known tongue unto all people, and therefore he was not as yet come unto the height of his iniquity. And in the year of our Lord 1240. many preachers in high Germany, did freely preach against the Pope, and his doctrine, affirming the Pope to be an heretic, his doctrine damnable, and that if they had not come, the Lord would have raised some out of the stones, who should have preached the truth unto his Church: and this was done publicly the Belles ringing out unto the Sermons. Crantzius, a man who greatly favored the Pope, and vehemently inueyed against those preachers, saith thus of them: Quidā pulsatis campanis, & conuocatis baronibus terrarū, in Vallis Sueuiae, sic feruntur praedicasse in publica station: quod Papa esset haereticus, omnes episcopi & praelati simoniaci, & haeretici: Item quod fratres praedicatores & minores peruerterent ecclesiā falsis praedicationibus, & {quod} omnes illi fratres prauam vitā ducerent, & iniustā: praedicauerunt (inquiunt) ad hoc tēpus praedicatores nostri, & sepelierunt veritatē, & promulgarunt falsitatē: nos veritatem praedicamus & sepelimus falsitatē, indulgentiā quā damus vobis, non damus fictam, vel cōpositam ab Apostolico, vel episcopis sed à solo deo. This I speak because in your accounts how long time the Church was obscured, you multiply much more then ever you can be able to prove. But let it be granted, that there was no truth of doctrine taught by them that had the government, & were the guides of the people, the Bishops and Prelates, by the space of one thousand years: yet might there be a Church, whereunto a man might resort, & tell her of his brother who had offended him. For at the coming of Christ, the Scribes & Pharisees had the government, who were blind guides, and painted sepulchers, yet was there a Church & number of chosen people of God, who lived in those times of darkness, & under government: as Joseph, Mary, Simeō & Anna, &c. being y ^e true & faithful servants of god. And our savior Christ, speaking of the shepherds and guides of that time that went before him saith, that they were thieves & murderers: but the sheep heard them not: meaning that those who were his sheep, were kept in that blind & wicked government, by his wonderful providence frō the infection of their doctrine. You heard also before, that in Jereboam's time, and afterwards, whē the priests were blind guides, & religion was most corrupt, even then the lord had thousands: that never bowed their knees to Baal. There had he his Church, & therefore all things that are of necessity required (so as without thē it can be no longer any Church) were there to be heard. There was such light of life & conversation, as did clearly shine & give light to chose that were in the house, & church of God: albeit Jezebel and her court could see no such matter, no more then you can perceive any good example among those, who have given lands and possessions, goods & lives, for the honor of God, in the cause & quarrel of his truth. Ther might any of y ^e church being offended with his brother, have admonished him by himself, & afterward have takē one or two with him, and if those could not prevail, he might have told it to those number that kept together, and were known among themselves to join together, in the true worship of God. And this is that which is required in this place of Matthew, as Jerome declareth. Which all may be performed, notwithstanding the ordinary government of the Church, be under the enemies of the Church: and was practiced in the late days of Queen Marie here in England: true doctrine preached, discipline exercised, and yet the government in your hands, that were utter enemies unto it. If you say further, that the Church after Christ, is not to be compared with the Church before Christ, because it hath more promises, and therefore take exception against my examples in times before christ: when the Church was kept under blind guides: I answer, that for the visible apparance & government of it, in that place where it was: the Church since Christ had never such promises, as the Church before had: & I will be ready at all times to prove it against you. Now if you will urge necessarily a visible and ordinary authority & government of Bishops and ministers of the word of God, who shall have and carry the face and countenance of the Church, where and in what place soever there is a Church: then how dare you say, that there is a Church and number of men of your religion here in England, seeing the authority and government is out of your hands? When any of you shall offend in adultery or otherwise, as some of you have done, who among you do present the matter? To what court do you go? Where sitteth your Officiall or Commissary? Where are your Sacraments administered, and your Masses celebrated? we know not the place who do live with you, and have the government in our hands, yet is it not unlikely but that you have such meetings, & never one of you, but knoweth where to have your Sacraments administered, and your discipline used. And if this may be done by you, and yet we have the ordinary government of the church in our hands: so in like manner might there be in former times, the exercises of true religion practiced in sundry places, and yet you notwithstanding, have the ordinary jurisdiction and government, and carry all the outward countenance of the Church with you in those times. If you say (as you do in deed) how can then his promise be performed, who saith that he will be with thē unto the end of the world? I answer, well enough: for cannot the lord be with his Church, unless he keep them still in the possession of their Bishopriks & benefices, so that they carry the countenance and government with them. The promise to be with them, inferreth not necessarily the manner howe he will be with them, and much less doeth it infer this certain manner, that they shall always be sure to have the chief government, and keep the keys in their hand. To answer you then in few words, where the Church was while you had the government (setting aside the Greek Churches, and others, who never from Christ unto this day acknowledged the Pope) I answer, it was in Italy, France, Spain, and England, &c. because there shall be a Temple of God, where Antichrist shall sit, and they shall be holy places, where the abomination of desolation shall stand: for Antichrist shall not make an utter spoil and havoc of the Church of Christ.

You require why you should believe the judgment of the learned in these days upon the Scriptures, rather then the judgment of the holy Fathers, long before us in time, and also in learning, virtue, and perfection of life: especially being assembled in general Councils: I answer, if you mean by holy Fathers those who lived 500. years after Christ, you cannot prove that in the principal pointes of Religion, they taught or had any other judgment of Scriptures, then we have, neither can you prove, that their fruits of obedience, differed from the fruits of sundry in these times, otherwise then that in one and the same gift, one may have a greater measure and portion thereof, then another. But admit they were contrary unto us in the exposition of Scriptures, and far beyond us in learning and perfection (as you cal it of life: yet may neither their learning nor their life, warrant us that their expositions and judgments upon the scriptures, are without any further trial to be admitted and allowed. For proof whereof I had rather you should hear August. his words, then mine own. Thus speaketh he of this matter. Alios ita lego, vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrina{que} praepolleant, non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt: sed quia mihi vel per illos authors canonicos, vel probabiliratione, quod à vero nō abhorreat persuadere potuerint. Augustine will have no man carry matters of Religion away, under learning or holiness of life, further then he can make good his judgment by the canonical scriptures. And you have heard before, that fathers have sent us from their own private judgment: and from their councils and common judgments in public assemblies: unto the scriptures, as unto a more sure and certain rule.

Your next demand is the same in effect w ^t these, & therefore one answer may suffice both. For if those holy fathers assembled in a council, have established anything against the truth, as some have done, & been controlled of those councils that followed, thē should he that followed them, have leaned more to the doctrine of men, then another man, who following his own judgment, had joined with the scriptures, and yet disagreed from all of them.

You demand a reason why you should believe M. Calvin and those that are of his judgment, rather then M. Luther and those who embrace his judgment: the one being as well learned as the other: claiming the spirit of God, as well as the other: as able to confere places of Scripture together, and to judge thereof, as the other: I answer, that touching the matter of controversy between them, you should rather believe him then the other, who justifieth his opinion by the Scriptures, better then the other: As for their ability we are to measure it by the effect, and therefore to judge and affirm that he who doeth more aptly and truly confer places of Scripture together, indeed is more able thereunto. If you would gather here upon, that conferring of places together in Scripture, is not the right way to come to true knowledge, and so consequently to agreement in the truth, when men are at variance, because these two using this conference of scriptures have not for all that agreed about the meaning of some scriptures: then I answer, that the leaning unto the judgments of the doctors and the fathers, is not the best way in controversies to fall unto agreement, and to find out the truth: because Jerome & Augustine, contending about a place of scripture in the Epistle to the Galatians, cannot agree whether Paul did truly & justly reprove Peter, or that he did but dissemble a reprehending of him. Jerome alleged for his exposition, the judgment of seven writers, to wit, Ladodicenus, Alexander, Origen, Didimus, Eusebius, Theodorus, and Johannes Bishop of Constantinople. Augustine alleged for the warrant of his exposition, only Ambrose and Cyprian.

Now if because Master Luther and Master Calvin cannot agree upon the true meaning of one place of Scripture, by conferring of Scriptures, you will therefore reject the Scriptures, as no sufficient means to come to the knowledge of the truth, or to decide controversies in religion by them by the same reason a man may reject the authority of the fathers, because Jerome & Augustine proceeding by their judgments to find out the truth, have not for all that fallen unto an agreement, but remained still divided in opinion touching the true meaning of that place. And by the same reason likewise, a man may reject councils, as not sufficient to dicide controversies in Religion, & to bring men to knowledge of the truth, because you, Thomists contending with your Scotistes, whether y ^e Virgin Mary were conceived in sin or no, could not be brought to agreement by the authority of the council of Basil, alleged by the Scotists for the defense of their opinion, and making so plain for them, as possibly could be expressed.

To conclude this matter, if you would have a reason why Master Luther and Master Calvin by conferring of Scriptures do not yet for all that agree upon the Exposition of some Scripture, this may be rendered: the Lord will not be bound to reveal all truth, unto all of his servants: but will have great gifts and graces, not to be without some want either in knowledge, or otherwise: that we should not think of men, above that which is meet, but that he who will glory may glory in the Lord.

You demand whether it be meet for all men to judge upon the Scriptures: I answer, it is meet for all the children of God, to have knowledge and judgment in the word of God, and by it to discern between light and darkness, good and evil: for it is written in the Gospel after Saint John, that the sheep and flock of Christ will follow the true Sheepehearde, because they know his voice, but will not follow a stranger, because they know not the voice of a stranger. If they had no discretion nor judgment in the word, why should they not as readily follow the voice of a stranger and acknowledge it, as the voice of the true shepherd. And if they be not meet to judge upon the Scriptures, then are they as meet to follow the voice of a stranger, as the voice of the true shepherd: yet the scripture saith, that they will not follow the voice of a stranger, because they know it not. One thing that moveth you to think that all men are not meet to judge of the scriptures, is, because S. Peter saith, y ^t his brother Paul writeth many things hard to be understood, which the unlearned & unstable do pervert, as they do the other scriptures to their own destruction. This place telleth us, that the ungodly are not meet to judge of the scriptures. For he speaketh of such unlearned, as are with all unstable and ungodly, who receive no more harm by those hard matters, that are handled in the scriptures, then by the most plain & easiest pointes of all. For he saith that they do pervert the rest of the scriptures, to their own destruction as well as those. So that the danger is in the man, and not in the scripture: unless peradventure you think, that through out all the scripture there is great difficulty & hardenesse for any man to conceive, a right judgment thereof. Which opinion the whole Scriptures do directly stand against, for thus do we read in the Proverbs: All the words of my mouth are righteous, there is no frowardness in thē, they are all plain to him that will understand, & straight to them that would find knowledge. And likewise in the 2. Chap. of the same boke it is written thus: If thou callest after knowledge, & criest for understanding, if thou seekest her as silver, & searchest for her, as for treasures, thē shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, & find the knowledge of God. And Paul affirmeth such cleerenes to be in the gospel, that he is not affcaid to say, if it be yet hid from them, the god of this world hath blinded their minds and closed up their eyes: as if otherwise it were impossible for so great & clear light as that is, not to show itself manifest & evident unto them. To return again unto the place, you say y ^t Paul writeth many things hard to be understood, which is not so, for he speaketh but of some things. The speech of perverting doth clear the matter itself frō all suspiciō, & doth charge peruerter only. The unlearned also chalēged not simply in y ^e respect, but w ^t addition of instability & ungodliness joined thereunto, Which the unlearned (saith the Apostle) & unstable do pervert: doth not foretell us of danger to any other unlearned, thē those who as they are unlearned, so likewise are they unstable & ungodly withal. Last of all the admonition that followeth persuading not to have no dealing w ^t the scriptures, as matters that were so hard, as that they could not be understood: but to take heed that they be not plucked away by the error of the wicked & fall from their own steadfastness: declareth that the whole danger is in the persons, & not in the scriptures. And no marvel if the wicked peruertthe scriptures frō their true meaning: for as no mā knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man, w ^c is within him, even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the spirit of God, which the ungodly are destitute off. But those y ^t are the childrē of God, as Paul witnesseth have received spirit of God, whereby they know the things that are given thē of God. For the spirit searcheth all things, yea even the deep things of God. An other thing y ^t maketh you think, that all mē are not meet to judge of y ^e scriptures, is as you say, for that when certain would necessarily have urged circumcision, & Moses law upon y ^e Gentiles, the Apostles & elders meet together to consider of this matter, so that you gather hereupon, it belongeth only unto the Church assembled together in a council, to judge of matters of faith and religion, and the rest always bound without any question of the matter, to obey. It is a very slender argument to say, the church assembled together doth give judgment of matters of faith & religion that be in controversy: & therefore the true members of that Church, are not meet to discern of the scriptures, neither can truly discern of those controversies. You might as well say, that the man who hath seen with his eyes a thief stealing, and hath taken him with the manner, cannot for all that truly discern, whether it be theft and he a Thief or no: because the Country meeteth afterward at the Assizes, to try the matter. Paul and Barnabas knew the truth of the matter and disputed against them, that would necessarylie urge Moses law: before the Apostles and Elders did meet about it. They were of the same judgment before, that they were after, as it appeareth in the same chapter, albeit they thought men would be better satisfied, if the authority & sentence of the Church were had therein, and therefore went they not as doubting of the truth in them selves, but as persuading others of that which they know was truth. I do marvel that you dare say that those men, who urged Moses law, & said to the Gentiles, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved: had more Scriptures to allege for them, then the Apostles and Elders had, because the new law was then unwritten? What one place of Scripture can you bring, not only that the Gentiles, but that the Jews them selves, to whom the law was given, could not have been saved: if they had immediately after Christ his ascension, left of Circumcision and the Ceremonial law? The necessity of the Ceremonial law did not lie upon the Jews after Christ, the usage of it for a time, was but for the weakness of some, & that ceremonies appointed of the Lord, might as ( Augustine saith) not without honor be had unto the grave. You say also with like untruth of speech, that they as judges without Scriptures, ordered this matter: when as it appeareth plainly in that same Chapter, that Saint James proveth the calling of the Gentiles, out of the Prophet Amos, and thereupon concludeth, that seeing they were turned unto God without Moses law, they not observing it, they were not now necessarily to be troubled with it. Makyng the Lord his dealing in showing mercy upon them, and turning them unto him, when as yet they were without it: as a sufficient reason to induce them, that they were not to be troubled with it, and much less under pain of damnation too be bound to the observation thereof.

You require who were judges of matters of faith and religion, the Scriptures, or men, from Adam to Moses, and so 800 years after Christ his ascension. I do answer that men did judge of matters of faith and religion, but not otherwise then by the Scriptures: and as they were directed from them, as we read in the 17 of Deuteronomy: And thou shalt come unto the Priests of the Levites & unto the judge that shall be in those days, and ask, and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment, and thou shalt do according to the thing that they of that place shall show thee, according too the law which they shall teach thee. So that you may see they have no absolute authority, to enjoin anything unto the people which is not according to the law: in as much as it is said, according to the law which they shall teache thee, thou shalt do. Which thing yet is better explained in Deuteronmy cap. 24. Take heed of the plague of leprosy, that you observe diligently, and do according too all that the Priests of the Levites shall teache thee, take heed ye do as I command them. The Priests therefore may lay no more upon the people then they had in commandment from the Lord. You may well perceive then that before Christ, men did judge according too the Scripture, and as they were directed by it. You are greatly deceived therefore imagining the scripture to be but a dead word until a man come & judge of it: for it hath a certain truth in it, from the which if any man should swerve in judgment, yet should it remain true all y ^e notwithstanding: And if any should join in judgment with the true meaning of it, yet should he add nothing to the truth thereof, which is the life of the word. For the word is the living voice, and that which giveth life and authority unto the other, even as it falleth out in civil matters, that the judges in all courts are led by the law, what to think and pronounce of the matter that is brought before them: and if they shall give sentence contrary to law, it shall not excuse them that they were judges: but contrariwise, being charged that they have dealt corruptly in any sentence, this shall clear them, if they can truly say that they have done nothing but according to law, & that which the law will bear them in. You say that out of the Church, every man is a liar: in the Church, the spirit of god and not man judgeth, who was promised to lead her into all truth. The Apostle speaking to the church, saith that every man is a liar, & therefore no man is to be believed for this cause only, because he is of the church, for the true Church is known to be the true Church, because she speaketh not of her self but hath the word to testify of her. You remember what Chrysostom hath said before: Ex quo non legit haec scripta, sed a seipso loquitur, manifestum est, quód non habet spiritum sanctum.

To your demand requiring the name of our Church, because all sects say they be of the Church of Christ: I do answer, that their saying so without any further proof, may not be preiudicial to us herein who say no more then we are well able to prove.

To your demand requiring what general councils our Church hath holden: I answer, that I would not refuse to satisfy your request herein, if either the church might not be a true Church, and yet hold no general councils: or a false church were cleared it should fall out by good proof, that she had holden any general councils.

To your demand what miracles have ben wrought by her: I answer with Augustine, Contra mirabiliarios cautū me fecit Deus meus, dicendo in nouissimis diebus exurgent Pseudoprophetae, facientes signa & portenta, ut inducant in errorem, si fieri possit, etiā electos. My God (saith Augustine ) hath armed me against those miracle makers: when he saith that in the latter days, false Prophets shall arise, doing signs & wonders, to deceive if it were possible even the very elect.

To your demand of what Church this Church of ours received the Scriptures, and what just cause she had to depart from that Church, of whom she received the said Scriptures, and why he should not receive as well at her hands the understanding of the said Scriptures, as the very Scriptures themselves, & what more certainly she hath of the truth of the one, then of the other: I do answer, that she received the scriptures of your Church, & the same cause to depart frō you, that Mary; Elizabeth, Simeon, Joseph, & Anna, with others had to depart from the Scribes and Pharisees, of whō they received the scriptures, & yet leaving them embraced Christ & his doctrine. And she had also the same cause that they had, why she should not receive the understanding of the Scriptures from them, of whom she received the scriptures thenselves. For they refused the expositions and glosses of the scribes & Pharisees, albeit they received the Scriptures from them. She had likewise greater certainty (evē as they had,) why she should be persuaded that you had corrupt the sense & meaning, rather then the word and text it self, for they doubted not of the word and text, that they received from the Pharisees and yet for all that rejected their expositions, as contrary to the truth of that text, which they had delivered unto them.

To your last demand requiring to know whether there was ever frō the beginning an external Priesthood, & whether that external Priesthood had not always an external sacrifice: I answer no, referring you for proof hereof unto the x. chap. of the Hebrews, where it is thus written. Sacrifice & offering, burnt offerings, and sin offerings thou wouldest not have: then said he, loe I came to do thy will O God; he taketh away the first, that he may establish the seconde. By the which will we are sanctified, even by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once made. For with one offering hath he consecrated forever, them that are sanctified. Now where remission of these things is, there is no more offering for sin, These be the words of the Apostle, Whereby you may plainly discern, that the external Sacrifice and offering from sin, ceased in our Savior Christ, as in him, who by that one oblation made once for all, did fully discharge the sins of his servants.