Counterpoison Considerations

Answer.

WHO so examineth these your Considerations, and weigheth them in the balance of equity: may find them wanting in many points, touching the differences between your Church, and us that separate frō the same; and insufficient in the points that are handled to persuade any wise heart to return unto you. You overpass 1 the hierarchy of your spiritual Lord's the prelates with their under officers which reign over you; 1 and the form of God's worship by your Liturgy or service book set up and used in all your parishes. These are two main exceptions that we make against you, though you dissemble them in this your writing, and insist upon other two, 1 the people, and 2 inferior ministry (as I conceive you;) as if these only were the points of difference between us and you. Which whether you have done of ignorance, or of fraud rather, to deceive your reader; I leave it upon your conscience to consider of.

Again, the two things that you take upon you to handle, you for down in these terms, the godly Ministers and people of the Church of England ; whereas our separation is from your Church in general. wherein many ungodly ministers and people are to be found, standing in commixture, or confusion rather, as one body with those which are esteemed more godly and religeous: and therefore you deal not sincerely, to make our separation to seem but from apart and those the godly.

Again, whereas there is a schism in your Church, by two contrary factions at war with yourselves, Conformitans and Puritans, (as you style one another.) you deal not plainly, to tell us whither party you mean to defend, but lead your reader into clouds and m • st, speaking of godly mi • isters and people ; not naming who or where they are. That though • gh one may gue • se whom you mean, yet you write so gener • lly & covertly that if danger or in convenience come by anything you ha • e said, yo • may s • if • it of to either side for your best advantage.

A 〈◊〉 you deny not from the corruptions of the Ch • rch wh • rein 〈◊〉 live; yet 〈…〉 not what those corruptions are, which behooved you to ha • e done, if you woul • have effe • ted o • r ret • rne unto you. For we are uerily persuaded, that they are nothing b • t your corru • t • ons 〈◊〉 we have separated fro • ; and therefore cannot rejoin our selves unto you till they be removed. And seeing you may mind some things to be corru • tions in your Ch • rch, and we othersome: it cannot be we should well accord, till particulars be related; which therefore (if you write again,) we pray you in your next to set down

Yet for the present, it is well that the truth hath wrung out such a testimony from yovr own mouth and pen; whiles you grant and deny not such a separation in general, as you mention: to the branches whereof if you will stand, and abide also by wh • ch you have heretofore wr • tten; I doubt not but the discreet reader will see, your bat ell is • ot so much against us as against yourselves; & the sword which you have dra • 〈◊〉 slay such as be upright of way, doth enter into the very heart of your own Church; & the b • wes which you have bent at us, are broken.

For • e forsake your Church for this main corruption, that all, sorts of profane and wicked men have been and are, both they and their seed, received into and nourished with • n the b • some of your Church contrary to the first covenant of our redemption, wherein God with his own mouth proclaimed & perpetvall enmity and war against the Serpent and his seed, which the women and her seed should wage; though with the brusing of the heel thereof. Gen. 3. Contrary also to the example of all God's Churches since the world begann, who always were separated from the ungodly, as the scriptures show.

Now that this is a corruption a • ong you, yourselves have taught saying and complaing that in the Church are swarms of Atheists, jdolaters, Papists erroneous and heretical s • ctaries, wit • hes, charmers, sorcerers, murderers, thieves, adulter • rs, liars, &c Also that among you the holy Saccraments are communicated with the Papists, the holy misteris of God profaned, the Gentiles enter into the Temple of God, the holy things are indifferently communicated with clean and unclean, circumcised and uncircumcised. Again that there be th • wsands which be men and women grown, which if a man ask them how th • y • halbe saved they cannot tell. As for wickedness in pride envy ha • red and all sins that can be n • med almost. it death overflow; and yet you are not ashamed to say are th • y not Christians ? This Test • money being tr • e, I hope yourselves now will be ashamed to plead that such a people ar Chritians & to be communicated w • th; or deny that we may separate from them in th • ngs concerning God.

An other weighty cause of our separation is, that you have a popish ministry over this profane multitude; touching which, yourselves also have thus written; either we • vst have a right ministry of God, and a right government of the Church according to the scriptures set up, both which we lack; or else there can be no right relig •• n &c. Now for the present ministry that is among you, as Parsons, Vicars. parish priests, Stipendaries, with the rest, you said, that c • me from the pope, as out of the Troian horses belly, to the destr • ction of God's kingdom.

An other cause why we refuse communion with you, is for that you serve God not as himself commandeth, but after your own devising, or by imitation rather of the Roman Antichrist: wh • ch yourselves have proclaimed though we should hold our peace; for of your service book you say, it was culled and picked out of the Popish dunhil the portuis and mass ••• kfull of all abominations: & that in the order of your service, there i • • o edification but confusion. Now this seemeth unto us no small corruption, that yov should offer unto God that filth which you have picked out of the Popes dunghill. May we not say unto you, with the prophet, Off • r such things unto your Prince; will he be content with you, or except your person, saith the Lord of hosts ? You know that Christ hath said their, offerings of blood I will not offer ; and yet will you take your drink offerings out of the great wheres cup, which the holy Ghost saith is full of abominations, and of the filthiness of her fernication ? What mor • loathsome thing could you have fou • d under the sun?

Again we have forsakē your Church because the ecclesiastical government and governors, the Lord's spiritual, are not according to the ordinance of that Lord who is the Spirit, but after the institution of his enemy Antichrist. And that this is a fowl corruption, we have also learned from yourselves, which say, The government now used by Archbishops and Rps. &c, is both Antichristian and diuilish. That it is that which giveth leave to a man, to be anything saving, a sound Christian. Item that that Vgly and ilfauoured hierarchy, or Church princelines, which instituted at the first by antichrists devise did afterward villy serve the Pope of Rome to accomplish the • isterie of iniquity, and to destroy the Church of Christ and doth yet still at this day serve him: must be abolished, that no remnāts, ne yet any show thereof remain, if so be we will have Christ to reign over us. Item that that profane jurisdiction of Lordly Lord Archbishobs, Bps, Archdeacons, Chansellors, Officials &c. as contrary to God's government, and wholly vnderpropt by the canon & Popish law, and with all joined with hypocrisy vaynglorie lordliness and tyranny. even for these respects, (if there were no moe,) are to be utterly rooted out of the Church; except possibly we mean by reconciliation to make Christ and Antichrist fr • inds : Thus have we been taught by yourselves, what corruptions there are in the Church, even so many and so great, that you complained thus, as our lacks are, there can be no right religion : and now you have added unto all the former to teach us a separation from your corruptions and this not only in 1 judgment, or 2 profession, but also in 3 practice and that we should not only reprove (as you heretofore have done.) every part of sin and error, but abstain also from a • l corruptions of life and doctrine. And now we would pray you tell us, seeing corruption hath so ceased upon, and possessed (by your own confe • sion (both Priest and people, both worship, and ecclesiastical gouer • ent; that as your lacks are, there can be no right religion : and seeing from all corruption we mus • separate: What then rema • neth for us to commun • cate with you in? For take away these corruptions out of your church, and you shall se • an utter d • ssolution and abolishing of the same. Though now it spread it self like agreene bay tree: yet will it p •• se away and be gone, and though one seek • • t, it cannot be found.

And is it not strange, that when yourselves have taught us how esteem of your people, ministry, divine service and church government; how also to walk and carry our selves, where such corrupt • ons ar, and we have but departed from these corruptions, (for, any truth that is among you, we have not forsaken:) that yet you will say we are seduced ? Are not you then the seducers ? We do but practice that which you have taught us, If you would have us to return unto you, first justify by the word of God, that people, ministry, and worship, that you have condemned: refute your own writings; and build again the things which you have destroyed. So when you have made yourselves trespassers, if we be not able by God's word to prove that the things we refrain from, are as bad as you have written; we will, by his grace, come again unto you. Til then, let the discreet reader m • nde, whither you deal not with us as did the horsemen of Egypt with the Isra • lite • ; that after you hau • given us leave to depart, you thus persue us with your writings, to bring us back again to our ancient bondage. Again, whether you that pretend a separating in the church, & condemn our separating out of it though your Church be so thoroughly corru • t, as before is shown and now call us seduced : deserve not rather to be called yourselves The seducing brethren of the separation. But let us hear what it is you now say for yourselves.

On our part, consider,

1. THis separation that we make, is grounded.

1. On God's comm • ndements, Matt. 15.14. Rom. 16.17. Eph. 5.7.11. 2. Thes. 3. • .14.15. Tim 6.5. Tit. 3.10. 1. Pet 4.4.

2. On the examples of all the prophets, Apostles, & Christ himself who separated in the Church & not out of th' Ch • . albeit in most corrupt estate, & yet communicated in th • t which was good; reproving refusing & suffering for abst • yning from evil. Luk. 2.2 • . 2 24 & 22.7.8.9. Mat. 22 3. &., 20, & 6, 1 2 5.16 & 11.16.17 18.9.20. &. 12 31.34 39. & 23 totum. And (note) those Churches were Antanosaicall as you say ours are Antichristian: yet for as much 〈…〉 th • 〈◊〉 Christ, as • ur Church doth at least, Luk 1, 9 10, Job. 1 2 • • 1. & 7 23.17 31 4 • 42. & 10, 24. Rom. 3 2.3. & 9.4. w • th Gen 49.10 A.t. 2 39. th • y separated not from them.

Answer.

IF by the C • mm • ndements of God, by the examples of Christ, his 〈◊〉 and A •• stles, we may & m • st separate from all corruptions main te •• ed in a tr • e Church: then ought we much more to separate from the • being maintained in a false; vnle • se; a false Church have more priv • lige, t • en • cr • e And we consider that our separation is from the corr •• ptiō: of • false Church;

2. The scr • ptures also are plain, that we must separate and forsake all false Churches, as well as corru • tions in a true, 2. Cor. 6 17. Come out from among them, and separate your s • lues saith the Lord, and touch no unclean th • ng, and I will receive you. Revelation. 18 4 Go out of her my people, that ye receive not of her plagues. Hosea. 4.15. Come not ye unto Gilgal, neither give up to Beth • ven ; and many the like How rightly then do you allege scriptures, as if they taught us separation in a Church only, and not out of it also; when it is false, and Idolatro • s?

3. Yo • r selves are a president to us of like practice, in separating not in but out of the Church of Rome: as yo • have dealt with the mother, so do we with the daughter; because like mother like daughter, according to the proverb; Eze. 16.44.

4. You allege th • examples of all the proph • ts ; yet show you not any that • all • ed by your r • le, to se • arate in the Church and not out of it. We are sure they called the people out of the Church of Israel when it was idolatrous, a • d forbad them to come at their a • semblies. Hos, 2.2.3.4. & 4 15.17 Amos. 5.5. And how they co • ld themselves join with that Church from which they separated others is strange unto us; especially cōsi • erin • that Israel in that estate, is noted by the pro • het Azariah to be with • ut the true God, without P •• ist to teach, • nd wiht • ut law ; 1, Chro. 15.3 and may we think, he separated not from that Church; The Israelites th • n, sacr •• iced to Devils, not to G •• , Deut. 3 • 17. Chron. 11.15 and will yo • s • y the prophets separated not from them ?

5. The like I Answer to the examples of Christ and his Apostles; who as t • ey abstained from corruptio • s in the Ie • ish Church; so were they q •• re sep • r • te • from all false Churches as the Sam • ritans and other like Mat 10 5. John. 4.22. Act. 2.40. & 199 so the • r examples also, do approve our practice.

6. W • ere as you would have noted that those Churches (which Christ and h • s Ap • stles co •• unicated with) were Antianosaicall as yours we • ay ar • 〈◊〉 : I 〈◊〉 t • e compar • son, For • the Jewish Church consist • d it all, 〈…〉 the same, Levite, 20, 21.16.) of a people separated not only from heathens, but also from f • lse professors, heretics, and idolaters; and were children of the prophets a • d covenant of God; John. 4.9 Act 3.25. But your Church c • ns • steth • f an inseparated people, children of Idolatrous Priests, & strangers from the covenant of God.

2. The Jews then, had their sacrifices, services and solemn feasts, according to Moses Law; Mat 8.4. Mar, 14.12. Luk 9. • O. & 2.21, 24 and Chr • st himself j • st • f • ed the • r worship John. 4.22. but your service, worship, and f • stival • , are after Antichrists law, translated out of his mass-book.

3. The • r Priests were according to Moses inst • tution, of Aaron's line Luk, 1, 5. with 1 Chro. 2.1, 10 their Scribes and Pharisees, sat in Moses cha • re; Mat 23.2, your Priests after the Popes institution your prelates fit in Antichrist chair. So they wer not so much against Moses; as you are aga • nst Christ: and that your Church reteyneth not the foundation Christ, shall through his grace anon be proved.

The 2. Consideration.

2. OUR Church hath the essential notes of a true church, able to beget a true saving faith, to work the fruits of the spirit, to make a man a true and perfect Christian, and last of all to save him. To the which also Christ hath tied his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world Rom, 10, 13, 17, Mat, 28 19.20. Act, 20.32. 2 Tim. 3.15.16. 1. Tim. 4.16 I am. 1.21. Isa 55, 11.

Answer.

THese notes which you propound, 1 are not the essential notes of a true Church: a neither (if they were,) are they ordinariely found in your Church

1. These are not essential notes, because; 1 One man may have all this you speak of; and no one man, is or can be a Church, for that consisteth of a multitude or mumber of persons it is an assembly or convocation; jointly together it is a body, and everyone severally is but a member. 1. Cor 12, 20.27, That one man may have all your es • entiall notes, may appear in Pavls exa • ple, who was able to b • get a true saving faith, to work the fruits of the spirit, and so the rest. 1. Cor. 4 • 5. Gal. 3, 2 5.

2. An Angel may have all the notes you mention; and no Angel is a Church. For example, the Angel Gabriel, who was sent to give Daniel knowledge and understanding, and preached liuly of Christ's death, & the benefits thereof. Dan. 9.21.22, &c

3. A wicked man may do all that you speak of; but no wicked man is a true church. Judas sent forth with the other Apostles to preach and work miracles, might bring others to salvation by his doctrine, though h • mselfe were a re • robate Mat. 10.5, 6. &c,

4. A true Church is the spouse & house of Christ, & bringeth him forth a s • irituall seed. But, as God gave the blessing of multi • lying childrē, only to lawful married estate, yet often it cometh to pass, through h • s almighty power and goodne •• e that harlots also are partakers of this ble • sing: and do bring forth children: so the blessing of spiritual propagation, is peculiar to the true Church; yet God, which brought light out of darkness, causeth some children to be borne and brought up unto him in false Churches For example; the Church of Rome, (the mother of whoredoms and abominations of the earth) hath doubtless, since she was wedded to Antichrist, borne and brought up, by the general true grounds of Chrstian rel • geon taught in her, many children of God, and heirs of salvation, This I s • ppose yourselves will not deny, neither yet w • ll you say, that Rome is Christ true Church. Your reason then is, as if Thamer should have pleaded, I am able to bear c • ildren, to nourse and br • ng them up to man's estate, &c. therefore I am my Father Judah • true and lawful wife, Gen. 38, 15.18. &c.

2. Now if these were essent • all notes, which you have set down: yet help they you nothing, for I deny that they ar ordinarily found in your Ch • rch. For, though I doubt not but the doctrine of your Church hath saved many: yet that is God's extraordinary blessing, not the ordinary effects of your Church. This is the thin • you should have proved, by comparing yo • r Church and min • sterie with the Laws and promises in God's word: which because you have not done, but only quoted some scriptures generally; which men of all religions may do likewise;) I will by one or two of the script • res that yourself here ci • e, show how unlike you are to a true Church and Ministry.

In Rom. 10.3.17. th' Apostle treateth of two things, 1 of calling on the name of the Lord, and 2 of faith, by hearing his word.

1. Whosoever call th upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. This we are to understand according to David's exposition, whosoever calleth upon him in truth. Psa. 145 18. for God is a spirit, and must be worshiped in spirit and tr • th, John. 4.24. but the worship and calling upon God which your Church useth, in reading the prayers letanie collects, and other like things of your Leiturgie, translated out of AntiChr • st mass-book, is carnal false Idolatrous; for such a manner of divine service you have no commandment or warrant in the scriptures. And this popish worship, begetteth not, but destroyeth faith and the true calling on God • name, and deceiveth men's souls; for in vain they worship me (saith Christ,) teaching f • r doctrine the precepts of men; Mat. 15.9, and, they that wait up • n lie • ng van • ties, forsake their own mercy. Jonah, 1, 8

2. For the other point, Fa • th is by bearing (or by report ) saith the Apostle; and proveth it by Isa. 53.1. Lord who hath believed our be • ring ; that is, our report, Now no man can truly and faithfully report • nlesse God hath first spoken unto •• m; ne • there can a • y man fru • tfully hear other report or doctrine then the Lord's; and so hearing is by the word of God, i • the mouths of such as are sent, as he showeth in the 15 verse. But you • Ministers are not truly and lawfully sent, (for they cannot show either calling, ordination, or office, according to Chr • sts Testament;) therefore they cannot truly and lawfully preach his word and consequently, cannot beget (ordinarily) a true saving faith.

The next scripture also Mat, 28 19, 20, plainly condemneth the state of your Church and minister • e: for,

1. There, is a lawful calling, authorizing and sending; of minister • from him that hath all power in heaven and in earth, saying Go therefore and teach : but such a sending your ministers have not; for (as yourselves have said,) they enter not in by Christ but by a Popish and unlawful v • cation.

2. There, is a commandment to teach (or make disciples, ) before they be received into th' Church by baptism, for o • them that ar taught, such only as gladly receive and believe the word, are to be baptized and admitted into the Church. as the practice of th' Apostle showeth, Act. • , 40 41. but your Church was not thu • gathered or planted by th' preaching of the Gospel: but by the commandment of the Magistrate: neither we • only the willing believers received, and others refused; but the whole profane multitudes wer admitted, or rather compelled into your church where they and their seed are still ret • yned,

3. There, God's Ministers are willed to teach Chr • stians so baptized to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded his Apostles verse. 20, & so they have his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world: but in your church, many things are observed which Christ never comma • ded. Yea the Ministry and go • erment appointed in his Testament, are held and confirmed by practice among you, not to be perpetual, not necessary, nor fitting for your state: but another pompous min • stery, and Lordly ecclesiastical government; after the manner of the court of Rome. And as for power and liber • y to observe Christ commandments, that is far from your people, which all are in bondage to the Bishops and their courts; having not chr • stian freedom to censure sin or sinners or practice the ordinances of the Gospel, as the Apostles did unless Princes and Parliaments will permit or command them.

The like may be said, and returned upon you, from the other scriptures by you alleged; all which do • concern the true church and ministry, as yourselves will not deny: and so will help you nothing until you prove your church and ministry such, Boast not therefore of a true saving faith and fruits of the spirit; when such bitter fruits and works of the flesh, do reign among you: for faith without works 〈◊〉 d • ad. I am. 2.26.

Now then, if you will give us leave to consider the state of your Church aright, we would mind it thus. your Church hath the essential notes of a false Church. namely a confuse profane worldly people, with an Antichr • stian Prelacie, and priesthood over them; able to beget ordinarily, but a vain and dead faith, through want of the true ministry of the word in Christ's ordinance, and by means of the false worship and false doct • nes that are in your Church; to work the fruits of the flesh, as the idolatries and other sinful actions abounding in your Church do show; to make a man a very Antichristian, by resisting persecuting and blaspheming, the true way of Christ and practice of his Gospel; (which alas, too many do,) and last of all to destroy him. if he repent not of his sin • • nd find mercy with the Lord. which we desire you all may find, for the salvation of your souls.

The 3. Consideration.

Our Church and ministry, are approved of and rejoiced for, of all the pure reformed Churches in the world. Our confession by them placed in the Harmonie of Confessions; gi • ing us the right hand of fellowship: as also by all the godly learned, and most sound and excellent fathers & lights of the chur • h, that ever lived in or meddle with our church; Bucer Mar • yr, Fagius, Alasio, Knoxe, who lived • n our church; Calvin, Beza, Bullinger, Gualt • r, • yml • r, Zanchius, Junius, Rolocus &c. with others very many, who have given their testimony and approbation to our church and ministry. Wherein if our errors were fundamental, damnable and Antichristian, (as you term them,) these churches and persons had undoubtedly the spirit of discerning. and could not be deceived all at once. 1. Cor. 11, 16. & 14.33. & • .15. &. 10.15 & 14.32, 37, 2. Thes. 1.4.

Answer.

THough you come against us with horsemen and chariots, yet we will • emember the name of the Lord our God; by whose word alone all doctrines must be tried all persons must • udge and be judged. It is incident to the best men and purest churches, to err and be deceived wherefore their sentences and approbations, must be examined by God's word. If you say otherwise you teach corrupt and popish doctrine. With such weapons as these, have the Papists long fo • ght against you, and where you can bring one, they can bring many to witness for them and their Romish superstitions. Antiquity, vniversality, and s • ch l • ke popular reasons. they seek to uphold their kingdom withal:

2. The word of God condemning your church and ministry, (as we have often proved; and our proofs lie upon you yet unanswered;) though all churches in the world, should a • prove of you, your case wer • o whit the better; for all men are vanity.

3. The Jews obie • ted as weighty a • arg • m • n • aga ••• t C • ri • t him self, whe • they said, d • th any of the rulers or of the Pharisee • s 〈◊〉 in him, but this people which know not the Law, are • ursed. I • h 7, 1 • .19.

4. If the reformed Church's ap • roue so well of you • Church and minister • e, they are n •• only against us but against themselves: for their own C •• rches consist of • separated and voluntary people, whereas yo • rs are co • fused and compelled; they condemn and have re • e • ted the hierarchy and ministry of Archbishop • , Lord bisho • s &c. Pr • ests, Parso • s, Vicars &c. which are yet among you and ha • e amon • them an • there ministry. Now how they can ap • roue of two sorts of Churches & m • n • ster • es, so contrary one to another, let them look to • t.

5. It seemeth to me, you are very lau • sh in your praise, which now vaunt so of the a • probation and rejoicing of all the • ure refor • ed Churches in the world: whereas heretofore you complained that you had all the b • st ref • rmed Ch • r • hes through • ut Ch • istendom ag • inst you. Again the Harmony that you mention, was set forth but by the French and Belgic churches; the things that they approve among you, are certain general heads of religion which a B • shop wrote in an Apology of your Church: most of all which heads, we our selves also approve and rejoice for But the controversies between you and us, touching the gathering and constituting of a Church; the manner of divine seru • ce; the form of Church government, and the like; are either not at all, or in very general terms set down in that bo • ke: and so uerie slenderly, if ought at all, by them a • proved or rejoiced for. To give an instance or two; in the tenth section of that H • rmony, treating of the Ch • rch, your English confession is so shor • and in general words, I doubt not b • t the Pope himself will subscribe unto it, letting him have his own interpretation. In the 15 section of Eccl • sias • icall me • tings ; you speak of prayer, in the tongue which all yo • r people understand. Now because the Reformed churches approve of thi • , we must take it belike, that they approve of your Leiturgie and service book also, and all your public worship, though it be not set down f • r any to judge of. In the 16. section, of Holy day's, fasts &c. there yo • wri • e ag • inst purgatory ; which being put into the Harmonie, i • enough (as seemeth) to prove that other ch • rches approve of all your Pope holy-days and festiuals. The l • ke may be minded for other points, as in the 17. section for ceremonies & things indifferent ; which being approved of and rejoiced for by all the Reformed churches in the world; the Prelat • s w • l have a shrewd hand against you that are called Puritans, for standing so much against the ceremonies of your Church, as you do· And for your min • stery, I marvel you say not that, it is approved of and r • i • yced for of the Pope also, for in the 11. section of that Harmony, you believe these orders and degrees of ministers in the Church, 1 Deacons. 2 Priests, and 3 Bishops ; which orders, wehther the Reformed Churches appro • e of or no, I am sure the Counsel of Trent doth, and hath decreed, If any shall say, that in the Catholik Church there is not a Hirarchie instituted by divine ordination, which consisteth of Bishops. and Priests and ministers, let him be • ccurs • d. Council. Trident. Sess 23. Can. 6. But now seeing not only the Fathers of the Counsel of Trent, but all reformed Churches in the world, (as you said, do approve of and rejoice for this your ministry; I hope the Bishops and hirarchie of your Church shall no more be preached & written against by your inferior Priests, (as many a day they have been,) as being Antichr • st • an.

Thus may you see what a weak foundation, you bring for your church and ministry ; and if we lyfted to fight against you with your own weapons; we could allege many things from the persons whom you cite; against your present church and ministry: but the word of God yieldeth us armor enough for this battle against you, as in due t • me through his grace shall be seen.

6. In the meā while, it shall not be amiss to put the reader in mind, how yourselves heretofore have judged and written of your ministry, which you say it is approved of and rei • yced for, of all the pure reformed churches in the world. your ministers being (as before is noted, Deacons, Priests and Bishops; Of the Deacenship you have written, that it is a mere human institution, a degree to the Priesthood, and nothing like to the ordinance of God. Of Priests &c. that they cam from the Pope. as out of the Troian horses belly to the destruction of God's kingdom. Of the Bishops &c. that you account them no natural members of the body of Christ church becauase they are of human addition, not borne with her, nor grown up with her from the cradle, Agayne that they be rather members of the strumpet of Rome, then of the spouse of the Lamb &c. And have not you & the reformed Churches great cause now to rejoice for this ministry.

7. Moreover consider you also, how we may allege, that now 10. years sithence, we have published our Confession of faith, and causes of our separation from your Church and ministry, to the learned Universities of the Reformed churches; with desire if in our faith or practice we erred, that they would show it us: but to this day, we know not any that have undertaken so to do: wherefore we also may suppose by their silence, that they approve our case or at least suspend their judgments and condemn, us not.

8. Finally, it is written in one of the scriptures that you quote, the spiritual man judgeth all things, but he himself is judged of no man ; 1 Cor. • , 15. Now every true Christian is a spiritual man Gal. 6. 1. 1 Pet 2.5. therefore he may judge and discern by God's word and spirit, faith from here sie, and the true church from the false; he may see with his eyes & live by his own faith, and not depend upon other men, to live & walk in sin till other churches condemn it. Let every man therefore retayn his liberty, and take heed how he judgeth.

4. THe only wicked Pa • ists, Ath • ist, and most ungodly ones: are adversaries to our godly ministers and people. The godly in all plac • s and times among us, by them alone an • ordinarily ha • e been converted unto Christ, and by them appro • ed, reu • renced, and obeyed always in the Lord.

Answer.

1. IF the only wicked be adversaries, to your Godly ministers and people; it pertaineth not to us, who hate none of you, b • t wish well and pray for you all; even for our persecutors we are adversaries only to the sins, & corruption • that are among you; & whiles we repro • e you for • inne, you should • ud • e that we love, and hate you not, as the law te • cheth. We say therefore with the Apostle; are we become your enemies because we • ell • ou the truth ? Gal. 4 16.

2, The Atheists and wicked one • that so hate your godly ministers and people; are the • not also m •• bers of yo • r own Church? So then your church is divided against it self, and you are adverse one to another. And why tell you us of this, as a consideratiō to reduce us to your church, when we because such Atheists & wicked ar (contrary to God's will) suffered among you, do separate from your Church?

3. Again, who be those godly ministers and people you mean? If such as are called Puritans ; they have (I suppose) moe adversaries the • friends in your church; yea the public state, alwes and canons of your church are against them, and all that know the truth of God, and the • r estate aright, have just cause to blame them for the • r long halting and dissembling. If the Prelates be those godly min • sters, they have in regard of their unlawful places and proceedings; many good people for their adversaries, both within and without the land, and yourselves also which suffer for s • paration in your church. By neither of these two contrary factions among you, ar men ordinarily converted unto Christ, both sorts setting yourselves against the true way of Chr • st for gathering and gouernmen • of the Church, and worship of God; and so do hinder men's salvation, and deser • e to be not approved, but reproved in the name of the Lord.

The 5. Consideration.

5. GOD hath given witn •• for the truth of our ministry, by the undoubted t • stimony of his gracious presence and approbation of the same; by his gifts of 1. sanctifi • ation. 2 knowledge. 3 spirit of discerning. 4. of utterance. 5 of power and authority in teaching, 6 effectual and ordinary • alling and begetting to the fai • h of God, and bringing them from darkn • s to light, from the old man to the n • w, from the fl • sh unto the spirit; which ministry of ours; begat you • lso, if ever you were true • y b • gotten in the spirit, & by God's m • rcie hath begotten me, & other h • s unworthy servants.

Answer

1. THe Papists will say as much as all this and more too, (if words will ser • e • for the ministry of their church; they boast of the • r Friers, & Jesus • ts holiness, knowledge, utterance & authority in teaching and their marvelous effects in converting to Christianity, the Indians & other • e • thens all over the world Yea what religion, glorieth not in t • e sanctity, gifts and effects of their ministry? But God's word must try all.

2. The ministry of • our Church being Archbishops, L. Bishops, Deans, Archdeacons, &c Priests, and Deacons, as is to be seen in the books statutes, and canons of your church: you br • ng not here any one word of God, or text of scriptures (which are his testimonies,) to witness for the truth of your ministry: and this is indeed worthy to be considered of us & of all that shall read your Considerations

3. Your own brethren heretofore confessed and complained to the Parliament, that you lack in England a right ministry of God ; that the ministers are neith • r proved, elected, called, nor ordained, according to God's word. This testimony being true, how then doth God give witness for the truth of your ministry.

4. The witness • es that you bring, if they be examined, will say little ar nothing to this purpose. For,

1. The gift of santification, is a common note of Christianity, 1. Thes. 4.3. 1 Pet. 2.9. and therefore no special note of a ministry. This was Korahs argument when he would have usurped the Priesthood. All the congregation is holy everyone of them: why may they not therefore be Pr • ests? Num. 16.3.10. But what saith the scripture? No man taketh th •• honor to himself but he that is called of God, as Aaron was. Heb. 5.4.

2.3. The second and third 2 knowledge, 3 of the spirit of discerning, are also general for the whole church, and not special for the ministry; Rom. 15.14. Phil. 1.10. Yea some in the flock, may have a greater measure both of sanctification and of knowledge; then the Pastor or teacher or any Officer

It cannot be denied but Barsabas had knowledge as well as Matthias ; yet was he not therefore an Apostle, Act. 1.23.26. and they whose genealogies could not be found, had knowledge as well as the other Pr • ests yet were they not there • fore kept in the Priesthood, Ezra 2.62. Boast not you therefore of your knowledge, but show us yo • r genealogies in the script • res There be a great many in your ministry called dumb Priest • wh • ch are but bare readers, by whose means many people perish for want of knowledge: these testimon • es will be dumb for them; yet your •• urch proclaimeth them to, be • rue ministers.

Your best minister • , of whose knowledge you boast, show themselu •• ignorant; (or worse,) in the 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 • lanting of a church wh • les; they will have it (as their • ractise proveth) with commix •• re of all form without separation: wherea • they cannot show any true church since the beginning of the world, but was of a separa • ed people. Gen. 61.2. &12 1. L • v, 20.23.24. Ezr. 6 21. Act. 2, 40.41. &. 19:9. &c.

4. 5. The fowrth and fifth, 4. vtt • rance, with 5 power & authority in teaching, are needful in such as are ministers, but no nece • sarie proof of a true ministry. For had not the false Apostles and Prophets. utterance and power ; that preached w • th eloquence and wisdom of words d • sgracing the Apostles and Prophets of the Lord? 2 Cor. 10.10. &. 11.13.15. 1. Kin. 22. • 4. Ier. 23.31. &. 28.1.2.10, 11. 2 Tim. 3.8.

Your ministers, many preach not at all many preach to maintain the pompous prelacy, & laudable ceremonies of your Church: and they that pr • ach best, show little power or authority For how many years have they been preaching for Discipline, and against some corruption • of your church? yet nothing prevailed, but are further now at last then they were at the first. Who knoweth not that the prelates have closed up the mouths of many Ministers, that the prophesy of Isaiah is verified upon them; Isa. 56.10. and yet you boast of the • r utterance & au • hority in teaching.

But lamentable ministers are they • ll; and the best of them may be seen to be but briers; and to have betrayed the authority of Christ; For when they took the Order of Priesthood as they call it, they solemnly promised even before the Lord, and by his help, that they would give their faithful diligence always so to minister the doctrine and sacraments and the discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded, & as this realm hath received the same. according to the commandments of God so that they mought teach the people committed to their care and charge w • th all diligence to keep & observe • the same. They promised also, reverently to obey their ordinary & other chief ministers is to whom the government & charge is committed ou • r them, following with a glad mind and will their godly admoni • ion, and submitting thenselu •• to their godly ju • gement. Yet your forward preachers (as they are esteemed,) do not minister the doctrine sacraments and discipline of Christ as th • Lord hath commanded; but sue and wait for authority from the Mag • strate, to have that wh • ch they count the true discipline of Christ erected in the • r parishes; which because the civil Magistrate doeth not they practice not the discipline, nor teach their people to keep and observe the same yea they blame us for pract • sing Christ's laws withou • the Magistrates leave, as if Christ wer not head of the church, & Prince of all the Kings of the earth. Again they administer not their doctrine sacraments and discipline, as this realm hath received, neither reverently obey their Ordinaries, but resist, preach and write against the Bishops, their canons, rites and ceremonies. as much as they dare Thus halt they between two opinions, and practice neither the discipline of Chr • st nor of the prel • tes whiles; yet they would seem to pract • se both: being in this point like to the Sa • aritans, which whiles they would both fear the Lord and serve the • r images also, they neither feared God, nor did after their or • inances, as the scriptures saith. What then may we esteem of your ministers p • wer and authority in teaching

A • aine, c • nsider you if some Absalom, Adonia • , or other usurper, should say; I have 1 sanctification, 2 knowledge, 3 spirit of d • scerning, 4 of • ttera • ce, 5 of power and authority in judging, 6 effectual & ordin • rie decidind & ending of controversies &c therefore I am a lawful King, Judge or Magistrate; and God hath given witness by these vnd •• bted test • monies, of the truth of my Magistracy: whether this • lea woe • ld serve him, or these testimonies approve his office? yet are these most • regnant proofs of your Min • stery.

6. The 6. and last testimonies is, their effectual & ordinary calling and b • getting to the faith of God, &c. This I have before touched and shown that ordinarily they beget not, but hinder the true faith: they keep the people in bl • ndenes and idolatry, wh • ch is a work of darkness and of the flesh; and if by their preaching any be brought to the true faith, I account it God's extraordinary work, which I doubt not but is also a • ong the Papist.

Again, if this were granted them, I would know what office they would claim i • the church hereby; whether Apostleship of some other function. For in the Church of Corinth were many teachers and instructours yet begat they not their • eople to the fa • th, for the Apostle Paul challengeth to be their father only, and to ha • e begotten them in Christ through the gospel. 1. Cor, • .15. So there may be a lawful Pastor or Teacher in a church, which never begat any of them to the faith, but only nourisheth and increaseth faith in them, that were begotten afore He is chosen to feed the flock. 1. Pet. 5. • . not to beget the same; the flock is a company of faithful people, begotten before they have a Past • r.

The begetting of faith, was first and chiefly by the Apostles and Evang • l • sts, that went about preach • ng the word, to them that had not heard it. Rom. 15, 20.21. It • s also by the ministers of churches, or prophets; (though not in office of ministry,) wh • n unbelievers come into their ass • mblies, 1 Cor. 14.24.25. It is also by all Christians privately me • and women which preaching and witnessing the truth of the Gospel, reading talking, conferring of the script • res, do convert many unto God inform their children and families in the faith, and save their souls, Act 8.4: &. 18 • 6 1 Cor. 7.16. Eph. 6 4. Deut. 6.7.

S • the begetting of fa • th, is no certain testimony of a true Min • sterie. Whereas therefore you conclude, that your Ministry begat us also, if ever we wer • tr • lie begotten in th • spirit: we may answer yov with Moses • e take to mu • h upon you. y • sons of Levi. For know you not the wind bloweth where it li • teth, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot t • l whence it cometh or whether it goeth; and so is every man that is bor • of the spirit? It seemeth you count nothing preaching but that which is in the pulpit; nothing the word of God, but that which cometh out of your Ministers lips: but thanks be unto God that hath given us better to discern the work of his grace, and hath breathed upon us with his holy spirit; whiles your Ministers stood lik the 4. Angels in the corners of the earth, holding the winds that they should not blow.

The 6 Consideration.

6. ALso our godly people have all the marks and tokens of God's people and elect, 1 which the scriptures set down, 2 which the people in the tim • of Christ and his Apostles had, 3 which the professors of any church that is now in the world have, 4 yea which yourselves in your supposed perfection can boa •• of: which is sealed unto them, 1 by the care, peace, and testimony of a good conscience in all things. 2 by suffering for sundry parts both of righteousness and 〈◊〉 3 by effectual comforts in such suf • rings, 4 ass • rance of faith, of hope, of remission of sins; God's dear love unto them; 5 by spiritual love and th • fruits thereof, 6. by the progress and daily growth in knowledge strength and godliness • &c.

Answer.

THAT many of your people are God's elect, I undoubtedly acknowledge: and I would to God such were the estate of you everyone. Yet the constitution of your people in your church, is not a Communion of Saints with which we may participate: but a confuse mixture of all sorts of men from which the godly must separate, as touching the worship of God.

In this your defense of them, you begin thus, Our Godly people, Bu • who ar they, can we tell? are not all your people godly? of the true church it is written, thy people shall be all righteous if your people be not such? why make you not a separation from the ungodly, that will not be reclaimed; or why cast you them not out from among you? Thus ought you to do by the Testament of Christ. 2. Cor. 6.14.17. 1. Cor. 5.13, If you do it not, you profane God's everlasting covenant.

I deny not but many hypocrites and reprobates will creep into the true church; and much ungodliness will their break out, as in any assembli • in the world: but when it is seen, the sinner is presently to be reproved; and either must purge himself by repentance, or be excommunicate. Luk. 17.3. Mat, 18.15.16 17. Thus still the church continueth a come • union of Saints, an unleavened lump, a holy nation. 1 Cor. 1, &. 5. • . 1 Pet. 2 9.

Now for your works and t • k • ns ; you say they have all 1 which the scriptures set • r • w. This is denied, and had you searched the scriptures▪ you might easily have seen it otherwise. For;

They are not a separate • people called out from the world: which is o • e pr • ncipal • ark, (as before I have shown,) urged often in the scriptures. 1. King. 8 53. Isa. 52.1 • . Ier, 15.19. John. 17.14.16, Reu'18.4.

They are not the Lord's free people, enjoy • ng the liberty of the gospel: but in thralldom to strange Lord a • d laws ecclesiastical. Contrary to L • uit. • 5.42.55. 1 Cor. 7. • 3. John, 8, 32 36 Gal. 5 1.

They walk not in the truth of the gospel; but in many things ar corrupted with the remainders of po • ish s • perst • ons and idolatry. Contrarie, to Psal. 26.3. 3 John 3, 4. Rom. 6, 4. Ephe, 2, 10. 1 Cor, 10, 14.2 • . Reu. 14, 9.12.

In these and many other particulars, your, people are contrary to the scriptures: so the pr • ncipall marks are wanting.

2 Next you compare th • m with the profess • rs of any church new in the world This is more bol • lie then wisely spoken of you: show if you can any reformed church, whose people are like yours, for •• rr mixed • re of all sorts or in l • ke bondage to Antichr • stian • relates; or that use like superstions and idolatries in the worship of God, and daily conversation. Remember also what some of yourselves have written heretofore; how that Of all the nations that, have rencunced that whore of Rome th • re ïs none in the world so far out of square, as England, in retaining the Popish hierarchy.

Your last comprison is with ourselves, whom you twite with supposed perfection : wherein you injury us, and yet help not yourselves. For we suppose no perfection at all to be in us, either in knowledge or practice but are privy to our selves of our infirmities;; and are sure we have more also then we can discern. Yet by the grace of God we are that we are and his grace is not in vain in us, but as it hath brought us out of confusion bo • dage and Idolatry, wh • rein your people still remain, so we trust it will keep us in the truth of the gos • el, until we come to perfection in the kingdom of our father which is in heaven.

3. Next you speak of the sealing hereof unto your people, 1. By the care, peace and testi •• ny of a good conscience in all things. what care can be seen in such confused careless walking of your people, commixt in one body, with the profane and serpents seed? what peace of conscience can there be, when men do walk in open transgression of God's law except such as whereby a man falsely bless • eth himself, saying I shall have peace, although I walk according to the stubbornness of my own heart? Deut. 29, 19, There is no peace saith the Lord, unto the wicked, Isa. 48.22. The ways of your people being wicked, their spiritual actions idolatrous it must needs be a blind or corrupt conscience that testifieth for thē in this estate.

2.3. Their 2 sufferings, and 3 effectual comforts in them; we will believe when we see them. For the present, we behold many of your people • for avoiding the cross of Christ to subm • t to the Idolatries of your Church against their own conscience and confe • sion, Very few that will suffer for any part of the truth but none at all that suffer for all, except such as forsake your confused assemblies. And if one or two in a shire, do suffer a little trouble, for not being buxome enough to the Prelates and their co • rts: what is that to j • stify the profane multitudes and general state of your people, which are readier to p • rsecute, then to suffer persec • tion for r • ghteousnes sake; as we have had l •• entable experience these m • ny yeires. W •• refore, as their sufferings, so I think their Comforts are.

4, Their assur • nce of faith, of hope, of remission of sins▪ and of God's dear love unto th •• ; may well be boast • of, but not soundly felt. For where so many evil works do abound and reign, there is not true faith, and consequently no •• re hope of remi • sion of sins. Shew us therefore your faith by your works for we c • nnot see your harts. Bnt this we find in the scriptures, that yo • r for • fathers; when the Prophets re • ro • ed the • for their sins, woe • ld vaunt as you do an • lean vpo • the L • rd a • d • ay, is not the Lord a • ong us; no evil can come up • n us. Mic. 3 11. This gl • rying of inward graces when outward transgre • sions do prevail: is mere delusion; common with all sorts and sects of religion. Even the h • rlot can boast of her peace offerings, Pro 7.14. and the Ph • risee thanketh God, that he is not as other men Luk. 18 11.

5 Their spritual love and fr • ites thereof, let them record th • t have tasted of. It is well known in the land, how many of God's children hau • been empouerished, afflicted, tormented, by long and lamentable imprisonment vexation and spoil of goods, exile and other like means women left widows, and children fatherless. How your godly people have visited comforted and relieved them▪ is not so well known: it may be their charity hath been in secret, and their left hand knoweth not what their right hath done. Wherefore you needed not have offered this to our consideration, who are so ūaquainted with their love: let them selves rather consider how they shall answer whē they come to that howr mentioned, Mat. 25.34 35.41, 42. &c. If you think they have shown love to their friends and favorites; that will procure them but little thank, even sinners and publicans do the same. Luk. 6.32.33. &c.

6, Their progress and daily growth in knowledge strength▪ & godliness, is ill seen in the estate they stand; there being at this day rather moe gross abominations urged and observed in your public assemblies, then have been heretofore; and your ch • rch further from reformation now in the end, thē was at the begin •••• : that unless you come to walk as your brethren of th • separation, and quite abandon the hope of reforming Babel ; it will shortly a • pear t • at all your labors be but s • iders webs; and your expectation vanity and vexation of spirit

The 7. Consideration

Consider how God hath witnessed his love and approbation to our church, 1 by many victories and deliverances from the enemies of Christ, 2 long continuance of the g • spel among us 3 strang judgments on the enemies & persec • t • rs of the gospel. 4 the power and blessing in casting out Devils. 5 prayer heard both in spiritual and earthly things, 6 by throwing down the Chur •• of 〈◊〉 , and building of the Church of God, by preaching, disputing and printing of many excellent works and volumes puplished of all sorts▪ which non • of you in anything have ever yet atteyned, but only to threw down God's church to raise •• ssention among brethren, to rent the church, to distract the ignorant, to af • ord the weak▪ to hinder the cause of ref • rmation, to bear false witness against your brethren, and bely the holy ordinances of God.

Answer.

1. IF many victories and deliverances, be an undoubted testimony of God's love and approbation of a people and their religion; then 〈◊〉 might well have boasted of his religion, who conquered seventy Kings and made thē gather bread under his table. Judge. 1.7. Then Raisak hs reason was good, which he alledgeth against the Israel t • , f • r that he had conquered so many nations 2 Kin 18, 33·34, 35· If on the Turks at this day, may triumph over Christian religion, because they have warraye • a great part of the world‘ & takē from Christians • any k • ngd • mes and • rouinces. Yea this very reason did heathen men her • tof • re allege for d • fence of pagan • me, as that by it Rome had been kept agai • st 〈◊〉 , and • there • ne • ies: and, that therefore Rome had got the Emp • r • of all provinces and parts of the world; because, it worshiped and served. 〈◊〉 • o • s that were in the w • rld, even the unknown God's also. I would wish you therefore to mind better ground for the truth of religion: and reme • ber what is written of the ancient Babylonians: after their victories; Th • n shall they take courage, & transgress and do wickedly imputing this their power unto their God's▪ Habak. 1.11.

2. The long continuance of the g • spel among you, will make the more aga • nst you at the day of your accounts because you yield no better obedience to the gospel as your present idolatrous estate showeth. The gospel was among the men of the old world; 120, years taught by Noah, a preacher of righteousness; yet at last they perished by the stood for their disobedience: therefore though it hath been with you, about half that time, you also • ay perish, if you repent not. But (note) you take it for granted which is yet to be proved, that the gospel is among you: whereas the true peach • ng and practice thereof, you cannot endure. The sound of the Gos • el, by th • f • et of them that puplish peace, is this Thy God o Zion reignet • ; • Judah keep thy solemn feasts perforrme thy vows, for the wicked shall no more pass through thee (he is utterly out off. Isa. 52, 7, Nahum. 1.15. with Rom. 10 15. but Christ reigneth not yet among you by his own officers and law • s, (as hath been confe • sed by the best of your Ministers;) you keep the sol • mn feasts of Ant • christ, as your Christmas. C • n • elinas, H • llo •• as Ea ••• r, and many the like; and the wicked at still in the midst of you, and w • lk on e • ery side; yea are exalted; which Da • id saith is a form for the sons of m • n. Psal. 12.8.

3. The strange judge •• nts on • nimies and persecutors, are good warnings for you that you persecute your b • ethren no longer: we have seen & minded some, upon no mean men • mong you; but wish not to see more we rather desire the conversion of our enim • es.

4. The power and blessing in casting out Devils, (though it may be questioned whether it be so or no in your Church,) is a thing that the Papists can boast of more then you. See their late supplication 37. reason of religion. Secondly, such Devils as are said to dwell in Babylon, Reu. 18, 2. we plainly see you have no power to cast out.

3 I would wish you to remember the words of Christ, Many will say to me in that day; Lord Lord, have we not by thy name pro • hesied. and by thy name cast out devils &c. and then will I profess to them I never knew you depart from me. ye that work iniquity. Mat. 7.22.23.

5 For your prayer heard both in spiritual and earthly things take heed you deceiu not yourselves; many years have you prayed & fasted for your discipline and pretended reformation; but how you have been heard, your present state showeth. As for earthly things, if God give them unto you, it is no sound proof that he approveth your prayers, much less your church. Some evil men's eyes stand out for fatness, they have more then the heart desireth; but their wealth is not in their hand, there for • the council of the wicked be far from me. God heard the prayer of the King of the Philistines; Gen 20.4.6, he answered at the sacrifices of the sooth sayer Balaam; Num, 23, 3, 4, 15, 16. &c, shall we think God therefore allowed of their religion?

Again, what people in the world is not persuaded and will not say that God heareth their prayers? Evē the heathens would boast thus of their false God's; as Julian protested that Aes • ulapius had often healed him being sick: and Ovid, that he had often seen Jupiter's anger appeased with incense. &c. See you not then, that as the Saints when they walk upright before the Lord, have assurance, and sound comfort thereby that be heareth their prayers which they make according to his will: so hypocrites and ethniks have also their false persuasions that their prayers are heard and vain comforts according? Vaunt not therefore of your prayers being • eard, so long as you do works which are to be abhorred but remember how it • s written, whoso • uer we ask, we receive. (of God, because w • ke • p his 〈◊〉 , and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. Heb. 3.21.

6. Your throwing down the church of Antichrist, and building the church of God, by • reaching, &c. is according to the proverb, Clowdes and wind without 〈◊〉 . Let your brethren be witnesses; Of the first they say, Antichrist reigneth amongst you : Of the latter, that as yet you are scarce come to 〈…〉 a church rightly reformed, and again; that the walls of Zion he even with the ground. Yet now you vaunt of throwing down Antich •••• s • hur • h and building God's.

The Martyrs in Q Mary's days did indeed by their faithful testimonies and patient sufferings, throw down a great part of Antichrist church but sithence that time, what have you done, unless it hath been to repair Jericho? For many gross abuses which those Martyrs abhorred, are now st • fly maintained and practiced in your church: but farther thē they went, have you not stepped a foot & if some of your inferior ministry, have spokē or writ̄ against a few foolish ceremonies; yet others of your chiefest ministers have written as much for them, that what superstition your church pulleth down with the left hand, it setteth up with the right. The Prelates and their side have written against you that seek reformation of Babel: and they both have set against us that make separation from Babel: and yet you here offer to our consideration, how you have built Zion. But the Lord will visit both you & your building; then shall your reword be according to your works.

In the end you ease yo • r stomach against us, as they that throw down God's church, raise dissention, with many moe grievous calumniations, which in your distempered affection you throw forth. More wisdom, and much more modesty had it been, if you had spared these reproaches til you had convinced us of such things. But I see how your zeal did carry you Hezekiah threw down the idolatrous places in Israel; and reduced the people unto God's true worship 2 Chro 31.1.2, &c. & 30.1.2 &c. Rabsaketh reproached him for this, as having done sacrilege against his own God. Isa. 36.7 We, by the word of our testimony, throw down your idolatrous high places, superstitions, ceremonies, false worship and m • nister • e you charge us w • th throwing down God • s church, and lode us with many criminations. But it is yourselves that trouble Israel; for do we • eproue you for any good thing in doctrine or practice; or have we left any truth that is among you; And if by our testimony of the gospel, diss • ntion be raised and your church rent, the ignorant distracted & weak offended : blame not us which testify the truth, but yourselves and such as re • ist it. Think you that Chr • st came to give peace on the earth? he hath told you may but rather debate. For five in one house shall be, di • ided, three against two and two against three, father against son mother against d • ughter: and ble • sed is he that shall not be offended in Christ When the Temple of God is opened in heaven, & the ark of his couen •• t seen therein there are lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, & earthquak • , and much bayl. Think it not strange then, if troubles do follow follow the preaching of the Gospel; neither impute your own faults unto us: but submit your necks unto the yoke of Christ, least he send out his arrows and scatter you. and increase lightnings and destroy you. How your churches • state hat • been justified by you, the reader may se by that you have brought? and how far we are from your unchristian calumnies shall further app • a • , by the help of God, in the answer to your other Considerations, that now next follow.

On your part, consider,

1, YOur Separation is very strange, vnboard of in any age of the Church, having no show of warrant from God's word, either by commandment or example.

Answer.

YOU would not call our separation strange, if yourself were not a stranger from the common wealth of Israel. What age was there ever in the world, since light was separated from darkness; that heard not of separation from the false Ch • rch, the fast man Adam saw it. in the separation of Seth’s poster • ty from Cain's. Noah did the like in Shem posterity from Chams. Abraham was called out of Chaldee: Lot out of Sodom: Israel, out of Egypt and Babel; faithful Judah from rebellious Israel; Christ's disciples, from faithle •• e Jews and Gentiles; and all the Lord's people. from your confused Babylon Yea God him self did first teach it when he made a separation between the w • man's seed and the Serpents, Gen. 3. • 5. And yet you say, it hath no show of warrant from God's word Hereafter I supp • se you will say so no more, but will see if you can prove yourselves a tr • e Church, meet to be communicated withal: which when you do, we by God's grace will return unto you.

The 2. Consideration.

2, THE points in difference between us and you did arise at first from persons, in whom God t • stified against your present causes, 1 Mr. Bolton hanged himself; • Mr. Brown revolted and came back from you; 3 Mr. Pe • ry, Barrow, and Greenwood were hanged; 4 Mr. I • hnsons and the rest banished: and (note) not by heathen and Ant • Christian tyrants, as were true Martyrs of Christ, but by Christian Magistrate's prof • ssing and maynt • yning the Gospel of Christ. Besides your principal pillars of greatest reckoning gifts and judgment, have returned from you unto the Church of England; as Harrison, Smith, Crud, Slad, and sundry other mi •• sters and men of learning and account, who also lived holily, and died most comfortably in the Lord notwithstanding.

Answer.

IT is a wonder, if you be a teacher in your church that your salt is so vasauory. Shall men's persons now be brought against the case of Christ have you no better learned him? Mought not a Can • anite or Philistian have reasoned thus against Israel? The wares against us and you did arise at first from persons in whom God testified against your present cause. Some were brunt with fire, some sunk into the earth alive, some were destroyed by serpents. some by pestilence, some by the enemies sword. some by the sword of their own brethren. even Moses and A • ron your • rincipall pillars of greatest reckoning, died in the desert for their sin, and of six hundred thousand men that came out of Egypt to fight against us only two men are left alive: and (note) these things have come upon you b • the hand of your God, whom you say, that he hath sent you to war against us Thus might a Pagā have pleaded against God's church then; with as much truth and more color then you that are called a Christian, can do against us. But let us see your particulars.

1. M • , Bolton (yo • say) h • nged himself. And so did Judas, one of the • irst and principal publisher • of Christ's Gospel. Will you therefore call Christ • a • ity into question for it? Besides this Bolton. (one of the Elders of that separated Church whereof Mr. Fits. was Pastor in the beginning of Q. Eliz. reign,) first revolted at Paul's Cross, was reproved and excom • unicate for this by the church: and aft • r not having grace to return or • epent, hanged himself. This is testified to me by one yet living among us, who though • was member of that church & well acquainted with the affairs th • reof: and with this matter, and saw the man dead. Which being so Boltons Martyrdom is little for the credit of your cause and church where of he died a member

2 Mr. Brown revolted &c. And to did Demas, and divers others in all ages, who loved this present world, more then God. But consider you here the Apostles words: what though some have been unfaithful, shall their unfaithfulness make the faith of God without effect? Far be it. Rom. 3.3 4. besides, how well Mr. Brown approveth of your church, though he live in it; if you ask him I suppose, will tell yov.

3. Mr. Penry Barrow, and Greenwood were hanged. And so was Christ himself; and (note) not by heathen tyranns, (for Pilate washed his hands of his blood;) but by Priests, Scribes, and Pharisees, professing and maintaining the religion of God, as your church now doth. And you that allege the hanging of these men to reproach our faith: it is probable that if you had then lived, you would have reproached Christ him self; in the fellowship of whose afflictions and reproaches, we now rejoice and are not ashamed. But fulfill you the measure of your forefathers.

4. Mr. Iohnsens and the rest 〈◊〉 . And so was I • hn, the son of • thunder; and many other of God's people many t • mes You and your church shall have small cause to boast of your persecuting Christ's witnesses, when the day of your 〈◊〉 shall come.

Your captions note that these • unishments are ne • lie heathen tyrant •• but by profess • ed Christians▪ is indeed worthy to be noted and lamented: yet is it of no note or force, to disprove the truth of our cause. For who • ersecuted Chr • st and his Apostles more then the Israelites God's peculiar and profess • ed people? who m • re then the builders, refused him the chief corner-stone? whe • e were the Prophets killed, but in Jerusalem? Yea not only false Chr • st • ans and hypocrites, but God's elect-servants may so be overtaken, as to persecute and kill the Lord's people. Did not the Patriarch • sel Joseph into Egypt, when some of them would have k • lled him? was not Sol • m • n a good King? Yet sought he to kill Ierob • am without cause; whom God had appointed to be King after him. Was not Aja a godly King, and good reformer of the church (yet was he wroth with Hanani the Seer, and put him into prison, only for speaking unto him the word of the Lord. What weight is there then in thi • your cavil, that our affliction are by Christian magistrates, therefore out cause is evil? Good princes may be over carried either by their own affections; or by the suggestions and provocations of other men. And if you will not yet see your folly, mind this for yourselves; that you which 〈◊〉 called Puritans, are molested, imprisoned, persecuted: and (note) not by hethen and Antichristian tyranns; but by your own Christian magistrates and Bishops, professing and maynteyning the gospel of Christ. Ergo, either your cause or your argument is naught.

Your last point is partly false, and partly frivolous: for Mr. Harrison ▪ returned not unto your church of England; but died at Middleburgh in this faith that we profess. Mr. Smith, Crud, and some others, (which never were officers. much less pillars, in our Church,) did indeed forsake their first faith, and died soon after; with what comfort, themselves now know. But what if many more had forsaken us, yet the truth of the gospel which we profess, shall stand.

Christian religion was at a low ebb, when so many went back, that Jesus said to the twelve will you also gee away ? Yet Christianity still flourisheth, and shall, so long as the moon endureth. And we with comfort do behold; that though many bad ones have gone away▪ yet God bringeth better in their place daily.

The 3. Consideration

3. NOte your dissensions between 1 Brown and Harrison, 2 Brown 〈◊〉 Barron, 3 Barro • and Francis Johnson; 4 Francis and George Johnson; 5 • r. Johnson and Mr. Slade (that great scholar) 6 Chaph • n and others a • out Anahaptisme, nay none of your great Rab • ines but have grossly disagr •• d disagreed among themselves. It pi • ieth us to see your poor congregation, how lamentably it hath been rent with mutual dissensions bitings, and devouring of ech • ethers▪ wh • ch doubtless is no 〈◊〉 • f the spirit of God. These are not lies but matters known; and they are matters horrible and strange.

Answer.

IF you were an Atheist or Pagan▪ as you profess to be a Christian: you mought in this ma •• r repr • ch the church of God • uer since the world began; saying. Note the dissensions, • etween Kain and Abel ; Cham and Noah ; Esau and Jacob, Joseph and the Patriarchs, Moses and the Israelites ; Moses and the Levites, Moses and his • wn sister and brother, Gedeen and the men of Ephraim, of Succ • th. and of Pennel, Ab • melech and his brethren I • phteh and his brethren, Benjamin and the other tri • es of Israel, Saul and David, David and Absalom, the ten tribes and the two, from Jereboam's times and after, the Pharisees & Sadducees in the Jewish Church, the Apostles of Christ, the diss • ntions in Corenth and the other Apostolic Chur • hes: These are not lies, but matters known, and r • corded in the scriptures: and they are matters horrible and s • rangem. So then, if your proposed C • nsideration be of weight to turn us from our present faith, because of the dissensions that have been among us: the like consideration • naught turn us also (which God forbid) from all faith and religion, & make us as very Athe • sts, as a many of your church already are. And indeed where unto leadeth this manner reasoning which you use, b • t unto Atheism • ? For if an Infidel • hold mind religion, mought he not be kept back, by consid • r • ng the dissensions, in fa • th, between Painims, Jews, Mahometists, and Chr • stians, and a Jew or Turk be kept from Christianity, because of the dis • entions between Protestants, Papists, Arians, Anabaptists and other sects many? Yea are not the Papists at this day hindered from true religion, by noting (as you do) the dissensions between Luther, Zwinglius, Calv • n &c? But it seemeth all these were far from your cons • deration, or if you minded them yet were they but motes in your ey: they be our dissensions, ours only that trouble you It pitieth you to see our poor congregation. how lamentably it hath been rent &c. but you are hard-hearted, and take no pity belike on your own Church. which you so highly commend unto us, though dissensions for discipline, (that I speak not of other matters) have been so great, that you ha • e not only preached & printed on against another now many a year and that in very bitter and hostile manner, but also, persecu • ede imprisoned & fought the blood on of another. Well, howsoever we have indeed just cause to lament, that by our dissensions, you and others have taken occasion to blaspheme the truth of God: yet herein have we comfort that such things must be amongst us (as the Holy Ghost saith,) that they which are approuued may be known. And you, if by no means you will learn the estate of a Church here on earth, where it is in continual war with the Serpent and his seed; but still you think these things horrible and strange : take heed you stumble not at the stone Christ to your destruction & have your abiding in that house, which the strongman armed keepeth and the things that he possesseth are in peace. Luk 11.21.

The 4. Consideration.

4. YOur chiefest teachers cannot as yet determine, what the discipline i • that they would have as what the difference is between a Pastor & a Doctor, whether Apostates ought to be admitted to office in the church &c.

Answer.

1, THere is no such dissention among us touching these matters as you would here insinuate: though if there wer, yet our imperfection and difference in judgment showeth that we are weak men; but no whit pre • ud • ceth the truth we profess.

2, The heathen Philosophers, in the Ni • oean Synod. objected the like against Christians, that they agreed not in opinion among themselves S • zomen. lib. 1, cap. 18.

3. Your self heathen-like, may object against Paul and Barnaba • (two of the chiefest teachers of Christian religion,) one of the two things wherewith you here do reproach us; because they not only could not determine whether John Mark, (who had before departed frō them) should accompany them in the work of the Gospel; but were so stirred, that they departed asunder one from the other, Act. 15.37.38.39.40.

4. You might much better blame your own Church and chiefest teachers, that cannot as yet determine what the discipline is that they would have ; witness your long continued controversies in print; wherein what ado you make about discipline, all the world knoweth. If yourselves would walk better, in the truth, peace and concord of the gospel, you might wi • h more equity find fault with us: pul therefore the beam first out of your own eye.

The 5 Consideration.

5 THE Lord hath also testified against you, by giving over very many people, 1 to Atheism. 2 carnal life, 3 Papism, 4 Anabaptism, 5 Ari • nijme, 6 Familism, which are not slanders but matters known to all that are acquainted with the course and state of your Church.

Answer.

ALl this being true, it showeth the badness of some men, not any badness in the faith we profess. An infidel might have objected unto Israel. as you do here: The Lord hath testified against you, by giving over over very many of your people, to Carnal life, Sed • mitrie. Peorisme, Bautisme, & many other idolatries with strange God's. The Papists may and do object the like things to yourselves at this day. much more justly then you do to us. For when any such have appeared among us, we presently cast them out if they repented not: whereas with you, such are still retained in the bosom of your Church; yea such heretics and vicious persons, as we have excommunicate; you do entertayn, as is known to all that ar acquainted with your estate. Wherefore the Lord hath testified for us, not against us, whiles by the light of his word, such hypocrites have been discovered and avoided: but you are condemned by your own doctrine, whiles such miscreants, and flagitioius persons are kept in your communion.

The 6. Consideration

6. THE churches and godly learned persons that ever heard of your separation, did not approve of it, which was the quarrel that Fr Johnson had with Mr Junius, and he sharply replieth on him. Nay Mr Barrow plainly raiseth at Calvin and the Geneva church, and even at all churches in Christendom. in his Discouerie : and counsels not with other reformed churches about their separation. but Answers (as Mr Johnson doth) the word is near us, we need not go over the seas to seek it as if the Spirit of the Prophets were not subject to the Prophets, and himself (as the Pope) had infallible rule of in • erpretation of the scriptures in his breast.

Answer,

THE strength of this reason, is quelled before, in the answer to the third of your first Considerations: thither I refer the reader.

Further I answer, here that you teach such doctrine, as standeth not with Christian freedom or truth, whiles you would forbid us the profession and practice of the Gospel, til we have consulted with, and be approved of other persons and Churches. For though I grant there is a good use of advising with other Churches, (if conveniently we can,) either when cases are difficult. or when in any respect it do concern them: yet that in all matters of religiō Christians should be bound thus to walk when the sin to them is evident, which to other Churches (not well acquainted with their estate,) is not so perspicuous; this were to abridge Christian liberty, and to bring our consciences in bondage unto men; that though God forbid us all communion with idolatry, yet we may not separate unless they approve it. It is contrary to the word of God, which teacheth us that God's commandment is not hid from his people neither is far off, not aloft in heaven, nor beyond the sea, but in our mouths & •• rts to do it. But you to deceive your reader, allege this, as if it were Mr. B • rrows or Mr Johnson's reason, and not the doctrine of Moses and of the Apostle • .

The col •• r that you bring for yourself, is that saying of the Apostle the spirits of the proph • ts are s • biect to the proph • ts 1 Cor. 14.32 which scripture considered by the words and circumstances of it, will in no we • se prove your purpose. F • r. first it may be q • estioned. whether the meanin • be, that the spirits of the prophets are subject to other prophets or to th • mselves. For the Prophets among the gentiles, (such as the Corinthians naturally were, (were s • bject unto, & carried and ruled by their spirits, and not their spirits subject to them: so that they could not choose but s • e • ke, (as S • bylla w • tne • seth of her self.) neither could they lin or cease speaking, when they would themselves yea and in holy scripture we see how Balaam prophesied good to Israel, and ble • sed, when he would have cursed th • m▪ Saul also and his messengers, prophesied (as it were) by constraint, being ouermastered by the spirit, so as he could not co • teyn himself, bu • stripping off his clothes, prophe •• e • all that day and all that night, when he had no pur • ose thus to do. Now therefore, where as the Apostle here had ordained, that if anything were re • eled to another that fare by the first prophet should hold his peace, because almight prophesy one by one : if any should allege, that they could not hold their peace, but must speak, so long as their spirit moved thē he telleth them, that the spirits of th • prophets are su • i • ct to the prophets ; so intimating that they may, if they will give others le • ue to speak showing also a reason hereof because God is not (the author) q of confusion but of peace. And if thus we understand the Apostle, his words make nothing for that you say. Unto this also may be added, that he speaketh this affirmat • uely, they are subject, and not by way of ordinance, let them be subject, as else where he useth: and as other things in this place are spoken; as Let the prophets speak ; Let the first hold his peace; Let women be silent.

But be it granted (which I will not deny) that he meaneth their spirits wer subject to other Prophets; because when they had spoken others were to judge : yet those o • her, were the Prophets of • he same church and there present not in other churches. For Paul meant not, that the spirits of the Prophets in Corinth, were subject to the prophets in Rome or Iudoea and so must send to them for approbation; but appointeth like order in this, as was in all (other) the Churches of the Saints. And if they were bound (as you would have us) to send and submit to other churches, and others likewise to them; then no Church hath no power in i • self, to apr •• e of her prophets, or Ministers or of their doctrine, without the good lik • ng of others,. Which how far it is from the Apostles mind I leave it for the d • screet reader to judge: neither think I but your own brethren will dista • t y •• r so collecting from this place Howsoe • er they do, it is very like if you had lived in Ahab's days and should have heard 400 prophets at once prophesying good unto the King, and Micaiah only prophesying evil: you would with Zidkijah have smittē him on the cheek, (as now you do us in reproach,) & told him that his spirit must be subject to the prophets, especially they being so many, and he but alone.

But if it were further granted unto you, that we must be subject to the prophets of other churches: yet I suppose you will not deny but all prophets and churches must try and judge everything by the word of God according to which if any man speak not, his judgment is not to be regarded. And we, have offered and do still offer our doctrine and practice to the trial of all men by that word: if men either will not try nor give sentence at all, or do judge amiss; we are not bound to wait upon them; but must live by our own faith. The reformed churches have been wr •• ten to by us; (for we know and acknowledge them to be true church • and our brethren in the Lord:) they give us no Answer. Shall we cōtinew still • n bondage to Antichr • st, til they bid us come out? What scripture teacheth us so? If they or any, convince us of error or evil, and we yield not; le • us be esteemed accordingly: otherwise if we walk in the truth, and they will not approve it, be it upon them, as they shall answer bef • re the Lord.

Mr. Junius, whom you mention to reply so sharply, neither approveth your Church, nor condemneth our practice. no not though he were instantly urged: the writings between him and us are extant to the world, let the reader judge what both sides have said.

Your censure of Mr, Barrow, (or scoffing rather at him,) neither hurteth him or us, nor helpeth you. His plain dealing in reproving the corruptions of these times. you call railing; it is marvel you say not also the prophets railed on the people of Israel, when they used sharp rebukes; for I suppose you can hardly show any hard speech that Mr. Barrow there writeth; which the Prophets and Apostles have not used before. But if he were overcaried with some severe speeches in a good cause‘ neither we not himself ever justified that infirmity, we know that we are frayl men let the sharpness therefore be his but the truth (which he sharply teacheth) God's:

And why carp you at the manner of his writing. and meddle not with the matter? That book with others have discovered the idolatries of your church; which neither by you nor any, have ever yet been answered & refuted by the scriptures. For yourself, let the reader judge what you • aue said.

The 7 Consideration.

7. THe great and gross disorder and partiality in administering of your discipline • , which George Johnson showeth cheerly; besides the wants of sunctimony and common duties of godliness, which (he saith) are to be found in far greater measure in the c • mm • n profess • rs of the church of England: and saith further, that the Dutch churches take you for a most unquiet, con • entious, and disorderly people.

Answer.

THis article you object unto us, upon one man's report that was for lying, and slandering, false accusation, and contention. himself cast out of our Church. By what rule or word of God, can you admit of the testimony of an excommunicate against a whole congregation? Reason also might teach you, that no man standing against a church to excommunication, will ever speak well of that church, in the cause wherein he standeth.

But grant that this all were true which he reporteth what would you urge upon it? that therefore Christianity which we profess, is evil? so perhaps a Turk or Jew would do with as much reason as you can conclude, that our separation from you is evil▪ Was there ever any truth, (think you,) that men did walk in it as they ought? or any Church in the world, wherein the discipline (as you call it) was administered as it should Julian the Apostate, (that wrote so much against Christ,) reading the testimonies of Moses, the Prophets and Apostles, Deut. 9.7.22.24, Isa. 59 3, 4, 5, &c. Mic. 3.9.11. 1. Cor. 5.1.2, &. 11.21.22, &c. 3 John. 9.10. had as good ground to blame the Israelites and Christians for their manners & discipline, and consequently to dissuade them from their faith as you do us: yea he might allege faithful and undeniable witnesses: whereas you rely upon a slanderer.

Finally, what aim you at, in all this, but to draw us back unto your church; and there it is like. we shall find discipline without disorder or partiality to weet, in your Bishops courts, for there the discipline of your church is to be seen. Of which, we need say nothing; the voice almost of all the land crieth out of their abominations. Only we observe how pregnant your persuasions are, to make us believe, that because there ar sins in Zion, there be none in Babylon.

The 8 Consideration

8. GOD never witnessed for you, nor gave testimony of his approving your separation whether we consider your ministry or people. For hardly can you show any one person converted by your ministry from papistry or atheism, or other open wickedness; as by God's blessing multitudes have been by ours: but only have you seduced and wrought upon the tender consciences of such as by our ministry were first begotten unto Christ, But (which is specially to be observed) from your distracted and divided congregations, multitudes have fallen away, to every kind of impiety & heresy reigning in the world.

Answer.

IF God approve our separation and our ministry by his word, (as we are sur • he doth) it is yeno • gh, though our ministry have not converted any. Your reason is as if a C • inite should ha • e said unto N • ah God never witne • sed for thee nor gave testimony of his approving thy building of the Ark : for hardly canst thou show any one person converted by thy precahing or Ark building, these 120. years.

Our ministry belongeth to our church; the assemblies whereof Papists, Ath • ists & such like wicked ones use not to frequent: and how is it po • sible • ur ministry should convert such as come not to hear it. If we w •• ld object unto you, that few Turks and Saracens have been converred by y • ur m •• isterie: what would you answer? Yet where you say • e can har • lie sh • w my &c. we can (if need wer) show you many that wer sometime prof • in & irreligious whiles they were of your church but cōm • ng and he • r • ng by God's providence the doctrine of our church, have been recl • ymed from their lewd life & do walk holily in the faith with us. It is true in • eed that our cause hath wrought most vpō such as being sometimes vn • er yo • r ministry, had tender consciences & pliable to the truth others, of more corrupt consciences have set against & blasphemed it▪ T • e •••• ideratio • of this in any wise man's judgment will rather lead unto, • hen • rom our cause; when the better sort (by your own confession) do come unto us; the worser and refuse remain still with you.

Your last point which you would have specially to be observed that multitudes ha • e fallen from us, to every kind of heresy and impiety, is indeed worthy to be observed. For first the scripture is fulfilled, which saith, m • ny sh • ll • leave unto them faynedly, Dan. 11.34, Secondly being fallen if they had come to a more holy faith & better walking whē they were gone out from us, it might have import • ours to be evil: but now that they have fallen to gross heresy & impiety; it argueth God's hand so be heavy up on them because they continued not in the truth with us. And this the scripture confirmeth saying of such as receive not the love of the truth, that they might be saved; that therefore God will send them strong delusion, that they shall belee • lies; and of such as depart from the faith ; that they shall give heed unto spirits of errors and doctrines of Devils. It is also to be observed that all such impious & heretical persons as have departed from us; are interteyned with you in your communion, (unless themselves refuse to commun • cate with you;) your church is the receptacle of all s • ch Apostates, & there they are suffered in heresy & impiety so as they w • l fr • q • ēt your assemblies. Better reasons therefore & more weithty c • nsid • rations▪ ha • e you need to allege; before you can persuade us to retur • e unto your church; for these hitherto propounded & examined are found too too l • ght. But it may be, better follow.

Proof of the assumption

A visible church is the house of God, 1 Tim. 3.15. Now the means or things that constitute it, are 1 Foundation Jesus Christ to build upon; 1 Cor 3.11 Mat 16.18. 2 Builders; that is, such preaching ministers of the word, as do build in godliness, convert and confirm. 1 Cor 3 10. 3 Instrument of building the word of God. Eph. 2.20. 4 Matter to be built; people joined together in the profesion of the Gospel. 1 Cor 3.9 Eph. 2, 20.

But all these are found in public practice in the best of our assemblies. Therefore in the best of our assemblies, are found in public practice, the things that constitute a true visible church.

Answer.

THE title of your arguments containeth 1 an error or absurdity; 2 & argueth some check in your own consciences for defense of your Church. 1 The error is, that you divide the church of England into many Churches ; making the first (as I conjecture) a national Church ; the other, parishional. This is an error, because it is an human invention and differeth from the scripture, which showeth many churches to be in a nation or country; as in Judea, Asia, Galatia &c, Gal, 1, 2, 21. Reu. 1.4. but showeth not any nationall church. Now that yours is a national church not only the name and title, but also the constitution showeth; for it hath a Pastor over it, the Archbishop of Canterbury Primate and Metropolitan, your most reverend father in God; who maketh and consecrateth the Diocesan Bishops. (whereupon there are Diocesan churches or Sees; (and they again make the Parish Priests. To him and to his successors, the inferior Bishops have sworn ( so help them god through Jesus Christ.) all due reverence and obedience. If the mould of this Church were not fetched from Rome; show where you learned it.

2. The check which the title argueth to be in your conscience, app • areth ap • eareth it that you plead but for the best assemblies of the present church of England ; for do you not hereby intimate, that there is a worser sort which you will not plead for? yet both b • st, and worst are all one body, one church and communion: If your Church of England be Christ's why maintain you not the whole? is not every • art and parcel of Christ's church to be defended? Think you that the priests and people of Israel, would have maintained the Most holy place of their Temple only, & have suffered the rest of the house to be ruinate and trodden under foot. or if they did thus, should they have done well? How persidiously then do you deal with your church, (if it be the true church of Christ,) that you seek to uphold your Sanctum sanct • rum, your best assemblies; and neglect the rest▪ Or, if you would make one piece of your church Christ and another piece Antichrists, where both be in brotherhood and unity together: it is as absurd as if you would make one part of your body human, another bestial one piece God's another Devils. It is contrary also to the plain scriptures which say; what communion hath light with darknese • hat concerd hath Christ with belial meaning. none at all. Either therefore you must justify your whole Church; or you must with us make a separation. How long will you halt between two opinions.

To your Argument I answer; the proofs of your assumption fail you.

A visible church (you say) is the house of God. True; but your Bethel, will be found Betha • en. the hou • e of Idolatry.

You make the things constituting your house to be four 1 Foundation 2 Builders, 3 Instruments, 4 Matter, But the form or fashion of the building, you leave quite out: perhaps you saw that it would not endure the trial▪ when it should be compared with the pattern that God shown in the Mount.

The Prophet Haggai reproved the Jews for that God's house was not built among them. If you had bē there. you would have disproved the Prophet by this sophistry. We have the 1 Foundation laid. Hag. 2.9, 2 Builders we have many both priests and people 3 Instruments also for to hew and square the timber and stone as axes &c. 4 and matter wherewith to build, as wood from the mountain, and stone from the qarrie. Therefore (though the stones be neither laid nor squared. nor the timber hewn, fitted or framed: because with us are found the things that essentially constitute a visible house,) we have the true house of God, But if your own material houses were no otherwise built, then your church is, by this your argument. you would have but an uncouth dwelling. If you read Gen. 11. you shall find the tower of Babel, to be as well built as your church; for there was the 1 Foundation laid; 2 Builders many, 3 instruments also; & 4 matter both brick and slime.

Now let us examine the things which you say you have; and do bu • barelie say for you prove it not.

1. The Foundation is Jesus Christ to build upon. 1 Cor. 3.11 Mat. 16.18. But this Foundation is not yet rightly laid in your assemblies you have it only in name and show: Christ is near in your mouths, but far from your actions. If you had shown by the scriptures how Christ is laid for the foundation of the church: it would soon have been seen that your house is set upon the sands. For you have not him for the mediator, prophet, priest, or king of your church, as it is now established. Many truths I acknowledge are taught among you but many untruths are also mixed with them, and the power of godliness is denied; for the truths that are taught cannot be practiced. Your church hath also other spiritual Lord's and laws then Christ and his testament; as your Prelates, with their cannons, articles, and decrees imposed upon you to be observed on pain of excommunication and, further penalties So Christ alone, is not your foundation, but his servants also you ar to whom you obey.

2. Your builders are your preaching ministers, but I deny them to be God's builders, let them show when God designed them as he did Bezaleel & Aholia ' • , to make his sanctuary. let them show by the word their office and calling as the Apostle Paul, of whom mention is made in the place you allege, 1 Cor 3:10.) did • n all his Epistles. Otherwise, not all that offer themselves to build may be admitted; for you know how it is written; It is not for you, and for us, to build the house unto our God. Ezra. 4.3.

In most of your parish assemblies, you have but one preaching minister ; and so but one builder, and he will be a good while in building the house; and if he be taken away (as many are) then your church wanteth one of the 4 essent all things In many parishes there be unpreaching ministers; your church maketh them builders also, (though you do not,) and unto such if we were among you, should we be constrained to submit our souls.

The Bishops are master builders in all your churches, they command and control you their inferior Priests: if you build not by their line they throw down quickly all your building, and thrust the builders out of doors. These are like the horns that Zechariah saw which scattered Judah, so that a man darst not lift up his head; but your preaching ministers are not like the carpenters that came to fray them away. How great a jarr there is between your builders. we all do know; and long it will be ere they agree together to build God's house; or the work be finished for Christ to dwell in, when the master workmen work all awry and when (as you complained to the Parliament) the walls of Zion, lie even with the ground.

3. The instrument of building is the word of God. (as you allege Eph. 2.20. delivered by the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himself. But your builders use not this instrument aright, in doctrine or practice, they new not here with the rough stone, and knotty timber they reform not the profain & rebellious people, neither have they power in their arms to cut off any one wicked man; for the axe of excommunication is in the Bishops hand alone, and his commissaries; he hath the keys to open & shut the doors of your Church; the parish priest hath perhaps a weeding hook, and may suspend from the sacrament a while, by virtue of his service-book: but the greatest wound that he can make herewith, the Bishop or his substitute will quickly heal. Again you have besides the Bible, Apocrypha books, commanded by law to be read in your church: also that other instrument called the service book : and with this tool your best min • sters build up your church, and the reading hereof doth now much edify, in all your parishes: though the days hauee been when you could say, that in all the order of your service, there was no edification but confusion. And who put this instrument into your ministers hands? Christ in his testament appointed none such. Your church hath also Homily books to build withal, and many edifying canons and ceremonies, such tools the Prel • es have allowed for your building. even the instruments of the foolish she • heard, Za. 11, 15.16. & if you will not believe me believe yourselves which heretofore have complained and written thus, No preacher may without great danger of the law utter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circumscribed and wrapped within the compass of such statutes, such penalties, such injunctions, such advertisements, such articles, such canons, such sober caveats and such manifold pamphlets that in manner it doth but peep out from behind the screen. The laws of the land. the book of common prayer, the Queens injunctions, the Commissioners aduertisements, the Bishops canons, Linwoods provincials, every Bishops articles in his diocese, my Lord of Canterburies sober • aueats, his licences to preachers, and his high court of prerogative or grave fatherly faculties. these to-gither or the worst of them, (as some of them be too bad) may not be broken or offended against, but with more danger then to offend against the bible. To the subscribing & subscribing again, & th • third subscribing are requ • red: for these preachers & others are indicted▪ are fined, ar prisoned, are excommunicated, are banished, and have worse things threatened them. And the Bible that must have no further scope, then by these it is assigned. Is this to profess God's word Is this a reformation? &c. Thus have we your own confessiō what manner of instruments your church is built with, and all men may, see, what small cause you have to boast of the word of God, amongst you.

The matter of the building, is people joined together in the profession of the Gospel. And what manner of people are joined together in your church? are there not all sorts of profane, wicked and irreligious persons, as well as religious and men of better life? and where find you in the scriptures such matter for God's house? The texts by you alleged teach far otherwise: for the Church of Corinth, were saints by calling, even called of God unto the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ. 1 Cor 1, 2, 9, and the Apostle never said to any profane or confused people ye are God's husbandry. God's building, So for the other text if you had minded either that which is before or after, it might have stayed you from applying it to your church. For the Apostle writing to the Saints, (not to the profane) which were at Ephesus, saith, Now y • are no more strangers and forreners. but citizens with the saints and of the how should of God ; and after, he showeth how in Christ all the bulding coupled together, groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord. But neither are your people saints by calling. neither can you say of your church of England, that all the bulding (of all the parishes) coupled together, groweth to an holy Temple in the Lord; for yourself here defend not all, but the best on • lie. And we know well, that the m • ltitudes of profane wicked persons and miscreants, mere strangers and forreners, are of the matter of your church; and are bu • lded in and with the same (if the word and sacraments do bu • ld among you) even the vilest of the • when they go to the gibbet, as pleasantly as Agag did to his death Now mind with your sel • es, if God have commanded to build his house with the fine Ceder and Sittim trees: & you take the thorns and briars of the wilderness, or wild figtrees of the plain: whether Christ (who is faithful to him that hath appointed him, even as Moses was in all his house,) when he shall take a view of all your work, will allow of your labors, and bless you for them, as Moses blessed the builders of the tabernacle. Exod. 39.43. Your first argument therefore is to weak to uphold your church or best assemblies, and the assumption of your profyllogisme is denied.

The 2 argument,

2. THose Churches whose true members are only espoused to Christ, a true visible Churches; Ephe. 5.30.32 2. Cor. 11.2.

But the true members of our best assemblies. are espoused only to Christ. Therefore &c.

Proof of the assumption,

They are espoused only to Chrisi. which are endued with true saving faith. Eph. 5 30.31.32. with John. 15.3 4.5.7. &. 17, 20.21.

But the true members of our best assemblies, are endued with a true saving faith confessed by Mr. Johnson in Jacob. pag. 7· Look also in the confirmation of the 5. argument following here.

Therefore &c.

Answer.

HEre again you have got another starting hole, whiles you plead but for the true members of your best assemblies ; yet neither tell you us which are your best assemblies, nor who be the true members of them; that how to follow or where to find you we cannot tell. As is the way of an eagle in the air, such is the way of an adultrous woman, it is hid and cannot be known. But I will see if I can discover your falsehood though I cannot find your footing.

First I deny that the true members of your best assemblies are espoused only to Christ. for (as the prophet said of Israel,) lift up your eyes unto the high placs & behold where you have not played the harlot. Now whils a church doth play the harlot, Christ willeth us to plead with her, that she is not his wife, ney • her is he her husband. Idolatry is spiritual whoredom, as the Prophets testify, Psa. 106 39. Ier. 3.9. Deut. 31.16. but the true members of your best assemblies, commit idolatry in their daily worship according to their Romish leiturgy or book of commō prayer, an idol of your own inuentiō. How are they thē espoused to Christ alone? Yes they are (say you,) because they ar endued with true saving faith I answer; Faith is in the heart, as it is written, with the heart man believeth, Rom. 10.10. The heart no man knoweth but God alone; as again it is written, thou (Lord) only knowest the harts of all the children of men 1 King, 8, 39, So then I ask you how you know that your members have true faith ; your answer must needs be, (unless you w • ll make yourself a God,) you know it not but by their words and works. Well thē let us bring these to th' trial; their confession and the • r practice ; leaving their faith to God that knows it The conf • ssion of the • r faith is set down in their service book, the 12. articles of the Creed. But this Creed the Papists also confess and read in their church; and if it will prove your people to have true faith it will prove theirs to have likewise; & you say no more for England, then for Rome. Again the Apostle saith, there are some which profess that they know God but in works do deny him, and are abominable and disobedient and to every good work reprobate. So then words are not enough, to prove true faith But we must come to the Apostle James his trial, show me thy faith out of thy works; for faith without works is dead. Now the works of your people are apparent to be evil; they standing in communion or confusion rather with the unclean, profane and, wicked whereby all God's holy things are defiled; as it is written, Num. 19.22. Hag. 2.14. submitting their souls to Antichristian prelates and priests, and hearing their voice, contrari • to John, ) 10, 5. worshiping God in vain, after their own invented service book, which is a high transgression of the second commandment; Exo 20 And these things are general and public; the particular and more private in • q • ities, will not easily be numbered. Whereas therefore you would persuade us your church is espoused only to Christ, (although her fornicat • ons are so manifest between her breasts, because she saith. she believeth only in Christ; it is with no more color, then as if Bilhah (whē she was known to lie with Reuben,) should have pleaded; yet am I an honest woman, and espoused to Jacob only, for my love and hearty affection is towards him alone. But the wise man teacheth us, these be but the tricks of an adultrous woman, she eateth and wipeth her mouth & saith I have done no iniquity. Pro, 30, 20.

The scriptures which yourself allege; do also make against your chvrch. Eph 5 30. We are members of (Christ's) body. of his flesh and of his bones. F • rst your church can show no covenant that was made between Christ and her, at any time: the gathering and planting of your church having been by the Magistrates authority: not by the word of Christ, winning men's souls unto his faith, separating them from the unbelievers, and taking them to communion with himself. Secondly, in saying his body, the Apostle excludeth all other bodies; as more plainly appeareth in the other scripture, 2 Cor. 11.2. where he prepared the church as a pure virgin for Christ, which cannot be whiles she defileth herself with others; as doth your church with the abominations of the Papists; compāying also in the bed of love, with the Prelates, (whom the better son of you have confessed to be Antichristian) and their infer • our priests, who work upon men's consciences by their jurisdiction, ministry, doctrines, canons &c. being as the bridegrooms of your church, not the friends of the bridegroom which stand and hear and rejoice for the bridegrooms voice ; for, that Christ should speak and rule, unless it be according to their own canons; they cannot endure.

The other places in John. 15. & 17. will confirm also that the true members of your best assemblies are not espoused only to Christ For Christ showeth, that his Father is the husbandman, who calleth and bringeth unto and planteth in him the true vine ; all the branches, that is the particular persons of the Church. But the true members of your best assemblies: are as yet the branches of that false Antichristian vine. your confused church of England: not separated from, but living and growing in one stock, body and communion with the idolatrous and profain. So that you cannot say, as did the Israel of God. Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt, thou hast cast out the heathens & planted it. Christ showeth that his branches were purged of the Father, by the word spoken unto thē; your members ar not yet purged or cleansed by the word of Christ, from their idolatries, and profane communion with the ympes of Satan,. The word of life the word of separatiō from the serpent & his seed; hath not yet sounded in the ears, or at least, not sunk into the harts of your people. Christ branches bring forth much fruit, through their abiding in him, being able without him to do nothing: your branches bear little fruit but unto themselves; and (as Moses foretold) their grapes are grapes of gal their clusters bitter, for the public idolatries used in your assemblies, after the manner of the mother of Rome. show that your vine is of the vine of Sodom. Christ prayed only for them that should believe in him through the word, that they all might be one in the Father and the Son, as the Father in him, and he in the Father; but the true members of your best assemblies, are one with the world, for whom Christ would not pray; being on spiritual body, & joined in communiō with the whole multitude of profane and wicked of the land; That strange it is you should read the scriptures and not discern, how far you are from being united with Christ, who as himself was not of the world, so neither are his people, but chosen and separated out of the same.

Whereas you bring no proof that your people have true faith, but by Mr, Johnson's confession; it showeth how distressed and helpless your estate is. Yet do you great wrong to Mr. Io, (as the reader may see in the place that you cite;) For although considering them apart from the constitution of your Church he thinketh by the appearance of the knowledge faith and fruits of diverse. that they may well be thought in regard of God's election in Christ, to be heirs of salvation, and in that respect true Christians: yet in respect of the constitution of your Church, he saith, they cannot be judged true Christian. Now we deal against your church in regard of the constitution thereof; not doubting but God hath many elect heirs of sal • ation among you, which we leave unto him that knows them. Your argument then from Mr Johnson's confession, is faulty, and agreeth not with the rules of right reasoning; for whereas he limiteth his judgment of them, showing in what respect it is & plainly excepteth their church-constitution: you bear your reader in hand as if he granted it without l • mitation? and that too, according to the Scriptures in your first proposition, which evidently do concern the churches constitution. You may much abuse any man's words, if what he speaketh respectively you will take and allege as spoken absol • telie. So your proof faileth you.

In the end you refer us, to the confirmation of your 5, Argument following to the Answer wh • reof I also refer the reader

Now though I have answered first to the assumption or second part of your argument on proof whereof you do insist: yet the first part also shall be better examined, ere I let it pass: Those churches (you say) whose true members are only espoused to Christ. are true visible churches. By true members I conceive you do mean. (not as the truth is, all baptized and so retained in your church, but) some few choice persons, or forward professors, among whom there is an imaginary brotherhood, and separation from the other profane in your parishes; though invery deed they stand all one body. If thus you intend (as the proof of your assumption plainly intimateth you do,) then offer you violence to the similitud of marriage or espowsall which all mē know is not with some few members of a woman's body, as her fingers, or hands &c, but with the whole woman, who giveth her self by covenant unto her spouse or husband. And as in civil marriage so it is in spiritual; for Israel of old. when the Lord became a husband unto them, did not some of them, but all the multitude generally make covenant with their God: the scriptures also which you alleg, Eph, 5.2 Cor 11 speak of the whole body of the church, not of a few select members of the same. For though it be true of every visible church, that some only are elect howsoever all be called; yet the discerning of this belongeth to God alone, and not to us; who esteem of persons according to their outward covenant profession, and walking. Your reason then seems to be like this; That woman's • hose true members, ) as namely. her eye, and ear. and some of her fingers) are espoused on • lie to such a man. She is his true and lawful wife. But the true members of N, (howsoever her whole body in general is coupled with an adulterer; and the most of her members ar affected and wholly given over to that adulterer, and her pretended husband they hate, & never made covenant with,) ar espoused only to such a man Threfore. &c. If this reason be not absurd. let him that readeth judge; and if such absurdity be not implied in your argument, show if you can in your next writing; for if you strive to avoid this, you will fall into another evil as shall then be manifested.

The 3. argument

IN what churches soever, is such an ordinance of God in public use and for • by which there is ordinarily made an undoubted resurrection or quickening frō the death of sin unto the life of grace, and a new birth: they are true visible churches of Christ. I am, 1, 18, 1 Pet, 1 23.

But in the best of our assemblies is such an ordinance of God &c. Theref •• e &c.

The assumption is manifest. because by that ordinance of preaching which is in public use and force. there is ordinarily made an undoubted new birth; seeing there do ordinarily appear in many. the undoubted fruits and testimonies of God's spirit, after the public and ordinary preaching of the word. in our best assemblies.

Answer.

THE first part of this your argument seemeth to imply an error; as that a church is first gathered & constituted of an unregenerate profane and worldly people; over which are set Pastors and Teachers, who by preaching the Gospel do beget them or some of them unto th • faith and quicken them from the death of sin &c which quickening or new birth, is a proof that they are a true visible church. This course I find to be contrary unto the scriptures; which I would thus manifest. When the Lord Jesus would show mercy to the world, and call his elect out of the same, he sent Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to preach his salvation to all people's. The people to whom they preached, wer • not (for the most part) churches of God. but assemblies of heathens and idolaters; as for example, the men of Lystra of Corinth; of Athens where Paul preached in Mars street; and other like places. By mean • of this manner preaching many • eople were regenerate or be • ne a new quickened from the death of s ••• e. a • d tu •• ed from idols to the living God. And being thus begotten unto God, they were separated from others that bel • eued not. and joined together into a holy come • union, not having other officers over them for a while till men were fitted for such a work. Therefore oft times the Apostles departed to other places and left the Evangel • sts to redress things that remained, and to ordain them Elders in every city, as the Apostles appointed them These Elders, called generally Bishops or Overseers, had charge of their particular flocks, and might not go from them as did the Apostles. but attend and feed them: These now could not properly be said to beget their peo • le to the faith, (as the Apostle noteth to the Corinthians) but to feed and instruct them; and therefore are not called Fathers, but Feeders, or Pasters. and Pedagogues. Child-leaders or Instructeurs. From which I gather, that people must regenerate and borne again, before they may be admitted into any particular church, or have officers over them; and that ordinary ministers, which feed their flocks, cannot be said to beget them, as is the common vawnt of you Ministers in England. which me thinks even reason it self might show you: For you that are now over your parishes, how found you your people at first, a church or no church? If you say a church then you begat them not, but entered upon other men's labors that were before you if you say they were not a church, then you condemn the state of your parishes as they were planted, before you were their Ministers. Now then to come to your • roposition; In whats • ever churches (that is assemblies. for so I understand you to use the werd generally, as the Scripture sometime useth Ecclesia, (is such an ordinance of God in public use and force, by which there is ordinarily made an undoubted new birth &c. they are true visible churches of Christ : This I deny; for in the assemblies of the heathens in the Apostles days (as before is proved) there was such an ordinance of God sometimes in public use and force, as by it ordinarily there was made an undoubted new birth; as th' fruit of th' Apostles preaching showeth· yet were not those assemblies of heathens, true visible churches of Christ. but such only as were converted to God and separated from the rest that believed not; and joined in a holy communion together were true visible churches.

Whereas you assume, that in the best of your assemblies is such an ordinanc • of God &c this also I deny for your ministers are not God's ordinance, he hath not called or sent them, they execute no lawful office in your assemblies. But your assumption (you say) is manifest, because by that ordinance • f preaching which is in public use and force. there is ordinarily made an undoubted new birth. I answer, first in very many of your assemblies there is no such ordinance of preaching in public use, as you here b • ast of; but bare reading only: yet those assemblies are by the Constitutions of your church, to be reputed as true visible churches as the other. Secondly in those other other where preaching is, I deny that there is ordinarily mad • an vndoubed new birth ; Your proof is, because th • re do ordinarily appear in many, the undoubted fruits and testimonis of God's spirit &c. I answer, first if this be so, yet what will these many, help the mo • t and greatest • umber, in whom such fruits appear not? When many of the heathens believed the Apostles word, did their belief bring the other that believed not, into the church did not the Apostles separate the believers from the rest. and teach them to come from among them? Yet you for the faith of some, will unite all the assembly unto Christ and his church, contrary to the Apostles practice, and to all the scriptures. Secondly, I deny that there doth ordinarily appear in many such undoubted fruits of God's spirit after your ordinary preaching as for which we may esteem them true visible churches. Some fruits I kn • w there do appear; so do there among the Papists: yea they take occasion for such things to reproach you. that there follow not so many good works after your preaching as after their doctrine; but among neither of you: are those fruits seen, wh • ch by the testimony of scriptures will prove you true visible churches. So we have here but your bare affirmation to rest upon: and though I might thus end with as bare a denial: t • l you bring further proof, yet for to help the reader. I will show that ordinarily there appeareth not a new birth after your preaching. Because of your public idolatrous estate, where • n you stand subject to Antichristian Prelat • s and canons whiles you have your public worship after the Romish idolatrous manner, and are still coming led in one body with the profane, and ser • ents seed, with many other evils among you: which plainly show you want the new birth and are still in your old mothers womb. This the scriptures which you allege in your proposition will confirm; for the Apostles show, I am, 1, 18 1 Pet 1, 23. that Christ's church is a people begotten of God with the word of truth ; that is the Gospel: but your church was first begotten. gathered, constituted, ordered, and is still continued, by the Magistrates word and authority; which if it did not enforce the people. the estate wherein you now stand, would soon be changed; your church dissolved, and either be better or Worse. And where you learned so to enforce f •• th, and constrein men to be members of your church I cannot tell; unless you follow Muhammad's doctrine who taught that men should be compelled to the faith, by war and sword.

Again, the Apostle addeth this for a testimony and end of our new birth, that we should be as the first fruit • of God's creatures This men are not, till they be as was Israel, hallowed to the Lord; Ier, 2, 3, which was by separation from the world Levite, 20.26, and a willing covenant with the Lord Exod. 19.5, 6.8; D • ut, 26, 17, 18, 19, And that the like must be of us Christians, another scr • pture confirmeth, saying, These are they w • i • h are not defil • d with women, for th • y are virgins ; (this implieth a se • ar • t • on from the world; • h • s • f • llow the Lamb with • rsoeuer he goeth, (this argueth a covenant and communion with Chri • t: and in the next words. both points are repeated.) these are 1 bought from men. being the first fruits 2 • nto G • d and to the Lamb: after this followeth the fruit, and in their mouth 〈◊〉 found no guile, for they are without spot before the throne of God. Whereas therefore you have stood so long against us for separation and would maintain a mere confusion of all sorts of people in a C •• rch, upon an imaginary separation made in the clouds of your own fancies whiles outwardly and indeed, you are one body with the wicked: you are undoubtedly • ot yet borne a new; your Church hath not strength to bring forth: your ministers are unskillful midwives; and the saying of the Prophet concerning the people of Ephraim, is verified also v • ō your people be is an unwise son. else would be not stand still such a time. even in the breaking forth of the child • en. Hos 13, 13.

The 4. Argument.

IN what churches soever all things needful to salvation by public authory • y and g • n • rall approbation, are ordinarily and publicly taught they are true visible Churches.

But in the best of our assemblies are &c.

Therefore true visible churches.

Proof of the assumption,

In what churches soever ar ordinarily and publicly taught. the doctrines wh •• by the people of God were converted and saved in the time of Christ and his Apostles. in those churches are all things needful to salvation taught. But in th • b • st of our assemblies are &c, Ergo &c. Proof of this assumption appeareth out of Luk. 1.77, 78. with Mar. 1, 4.15. Luk. 24, 47. Act. 2.37, 38, 41. Act, 11, 17 18. Act 16.30.31, and 20.21.

If it be o • i • cted that the points in question between us. be needful to salvation: it is thus disproved.

Al things needful to salvation are clearly set down in the scriptures to the understanding of the spiritual 1 Cor 2.15. Dan 12.10. Pro. 8 9. • nd the things that are not open to the spiritual, are not needful to salvation.

But the p • ynts in question between us, are not clearly s • t down in scripture to the understanding of the spiritual; as appeareth both by thousands of • inist • rs and peo • le of the church of England and o • her forr • yn churches among • h • me are the chiefest lights of this age as Calvin, Beza, Junius, Fiscat • r. Gwalther. Zanchius with others, which were undoubtedly spiritual; are of c • ntrary judgment to the Separatists as also in that it is not agreed up • n among themselves. what is the discipline and order required by the word in • ue • y p • ynt, nor in • any other points of difference among them. namely touching the diff • rences of the office of Doctor and Past • r &c.

Answer.

FIrst wishing the reader to remember what is answered to the fi • st part of your former Syllogism; I will without further re • etition, proceed p • oceed in answer of this; where the gro • nd and proposition of your first argument is imperfect, so that which you build thereon is unsound. For whereas you speak of all things n ••• full to s • lauation &c. to be publicly taught : you should have added also, are obser • ed or done ; according to Christ's saying ye are my friends if ye do whatsoever I command you. If men hear truth taught and obey it not, it avayles them nothing Ther • fore as the Apostle saith, be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. d • ceiuing yourselves.

Your assumption also is denied: for in your best assemblies all things needful to salvation be not taught, much less done or practiced. To give an instance; to be separated from the unbelievers, and to be joined together unto a holy come • union and church; is needful to sal • ation; 2 Cor, 6, 17.18. Act, 1 47, Isa 65.9, Reu 21, 24. This is neither taught not practiced in your a • semblies but oppugned by all the cavils you can. Your proof of the a • s • m • tion is, a comp • rison of your church with those in Christ's time and th' Apostles. I answer you again, your church is not like those in d •• trine or in practice of things needful to salvation.

Then you say, the proof of this assumption appeareth out of Luk. 1.77. &c. This is a strange proof of your assumption, which is this, But in the best of our ass • mblies are taught &c. Doth Luk 1, 77. show what is taught in your a • semblies? and why doth not Mat, 15, 9. and 23, 16 17, &c. show what is taught there also? The places that you allege show what doctrine was taught in the Jewish and Apostolic church • ; not what is taught in yours. It must be therefore your own writings, sermons, doctrine, practice and estate. that must prove your a • sumption. But you will say (perha • s) your doctrines and practices. agree with those mentioned in these scriptures. That I deny; and would therefore that you should have made application of the particulars: Which because you have not done, I will do for you.

You allege Luk, 1, 77.78. with Mar, 1.4.15 where knowledge of salvation is giu • n unto (God's) people. by remission of their sins, through the tender mercy of our God &c. & this was done, by preaching the baptisime of amendment of life, for r • mission of sins. and belief in the Gospel. So in Luk. 24, 47 repentance and remission of sins should be preached in Christ's name among all nations. The same things are also taught in all the other places which you cite, as the reader may see in the texts. Now these things (you will say) are taught and observed among you. I show the contrary thus.

First you give knowledge of salvation, (though faslly) unto other then to his, that is to God's people ; in as much as you give the sacraments, which are the seals of our salvation unto the profane and wicked and their seed thus prostituting the most holy things. even Christ h • mselfe, unto hat • rs a • d bl • sphemers of God, (a • you cann • r deny but a number of yo • r church are) and such as make a mock of religion; and herein you ar • u • ty of high sacrilege agai • st God.

Secondly, the doctrine of repentance. is not truly taught nor obeyed in y • ur Ch • rch. For unto true repentance is required, 1 a knowledge or notice given and taken of sins; Isa 58, 1, Lam, 2, 14 & 3 39, 40. 2 an acknowledgment or confession made of sins, (as a testimony of true sorrow of heart,) with asking mercy Leu 4, 13, 14. &c, & 5, 5.6, Psal. 32, 3, 5, 3 and a for • aking of sins, or amendment of life. Prov. 28, 13, Psal, 28.21.2 Cor. 7, 11. Eze. 18, 21.

N • w the sins of your church have not by your Ministers been signify • to yo • r people; as namely their confuse estate and commixture with the wicked; though it be a sin everywhere reproved in the scriptures. as before is shown.

The great transgressions which your people daily commit in God's publ • ck worship, whiles, you have your own will-worship, and stinted prayers with •• t warrant from Chr • sts testament, read in place of God's true spiritual service; these are not preached against, reproved or cast out by your ministers doctrine; but contrariwise, they have by word & writing so • ght to m • inteyn the same. The seru • le subjection that both ministers and people, are in, under your Lord's the Bishops and their courts; is not disco • ere • by your min • sters to be a sin and bondage which you must depart from, if you will be subject to that only Lord & master Chr • st though secretly they have sought to undermine that jurisdict • on of B • shops wh • ch how ca • they do, if it be of Christ; or how may a • y sta • d under it, if it be of Antichrist?

This being the sinful state of your church, as we well know. (and you ar never able to just • fy yourselves;) your ministers not teaching repentāc for these things, nor being suffered by your Church to speak against them, teach not repentance truly. For, It is not enough to cry out of Idolatry, or to preach repentance from sins in general; for so they do among the Papists, but the particular sins of every people and pers • n mu • t be reproved; yea every sin that is seen and discerned, or else your preachers do not their duty. God's word teacheth u • t • at • f a man walk in any one sin though he do not all he shall n • t live. but die the de • th Ezek. 18, 11, 13. W • en Gibeah was given ove • to the Sin of Sodom, if the Priests and prophets should have preached against idolatry, swearing, breaking of the Sabbath, and such like evils. and not against that particular filthiness which the people followed should they have preached repentance truly? When Israel followed Iereboams calves at Dan and Bethel, if the ministers then had preached against Sodo • ie, whoredom, drunkenness, and the like, and not cried out a • ainst that present idol worship, but pleaded rather for it: sh • uld they have t • u • ht repenatnce truly? Even thus it is with your best min • ster • , they will th •• de • out in their pulpits, against Popery, and idol • try in • e • er • ll a • ainst theft, whoredom, pr • de, covetousness, and m •• y o • her i • q ••• ie • , but the sin which cleaveth so fast to the bones of • o • r Church, t • e heinous enormities in God's worship amongst you▪ these they meddle not with, neither upon pain of excommunicati •• draw the people to repentance for them; as after I will further show. Perhaps now and then they will glance at the Bps. or some other corruptions, but bring the people from under these iniquities, they do not, nay they plead for them rather, and cry o • t upon us, which have forsaken so gross ab • minations.

Now there being no notice given by the ministers, or taken by the people of the si • ns wherein they live: the other two parts of true re • entance do also fail among you: for far you be from confessing your sins, which though you offer the sacrifice of fools, yet will you not know that you do evil, and most far from amending them, when with so high a hand you do maintain them: although the testimony and s • ffrings of us your dis • ised and persecuted brethren, against them, have sounded in your ears now man • e a day. Thus teach they not repentance aright.

As for faith it cannot be sound, and true, where it hath not ground o • the covenant and promise of God: God's covenant and • romise of salvation, you have not without repentance, as Christ said, Except ye repent. you shall all likewise p • rish for surely God will wound the hairy • ate of him that walketh in his sins. To preach faith therefore. and a • ply justification by faith, to an unrepentant people, is to • rofane that holy doctrine, and turn the grace of God into licent • ousnes. But to give the seals of the righteousness of faith, (baptism, and the Lord's supper) to the wicked blasphemers, irreligious, and to their seed, it is a sin of sin • for which your ministers shall give an heavy account to Christ at his appearing. as have counted the • recious blood of his testament an vnholi • thing. and washed and fed therewith e • en dogs and swine, as the scripture calleth such ungodly • ersons. And thus you have not truly taught among you either rep • ntance from dead works or faith towards God, which are the doctrine of the beginning of Christ and the very foundation, as the Apostle saith.

I will now also compare the practice of the Apostles (in the plac • which you cite) with yours, that the reader may see how your right eye is blinded, to bring scripture so plain against yourselves. In Act. 2, 37, &c, the manner of gathering and planting that church‘ is thus described. There was first the word preached. by the Apostles, verse 14 &c which being heard, pricked the harts of the • eople, verse, 37. there was repentance taught (not for adultery, theft, worshiping of Idols o • the like, whereof it may be that people was not known to be guilty. but) for their particular trespass in refusing of Jesus Christ, into whose name they must be baptized, if they would be saved, verse 38, then followed a plain separation from such as frowardly resisted the truth. verse. 40, and none were baptized or joined to the church but such as gladly received the word verse· 41. After this followed a cont • newing (notwithstanding the imminent peril of trouble and persecution for the truth sake,) in the Apostles doctr • ne, and fellowship, and breaking of bread, and prayer • ; verse 42, If you had walked in this primitive churches steps you should before the constituting of your Church, have preached unto the poor ignorant and idolatrous Papists, (which was the general face of the land at Q Mary's death,) repentance for their sins in all their idolatries. w • ll worships, and superstitions, subjection to Antichrist, his prelacy, priesthood, and government. &c. To such as had their harts pricked with your doctrine, you should have shown the true way of the Gospel faith, and holy walking therein You should have taugh • them a separation from the profane and obstinate; and have gathered into the Church, such only as gladly received the word; and with them you should have walked in a holy communion and practice of Christ's ordinances, th • ugh Princes and Parl • aments, though • gh men and Angels, should have forbidden, & threatened you for it. Thus had your church bē the daughter of th • t mother church in Ier • salem, whereas now by neglecting this pattern, and retaining the Popish confuse multitude, and a great part of their ministry and worship; you have imitated B • bylon • e mother of fornications, a • d • re as unlike Zion, as you are like yourselves.

The objection which you feared, and therefore would prevent with answer.: is yet of more weight then will be eased by your syllogism; the a • sumption whereof I deny For the true constituting of a Church by the word perached, call • ng men to a willing holy covenant with God sep • ratin • them from the ways of Satan & Antichrist. his false & idoatr •• s worship, priesthood and government. uniting them together in the come • union of the true faith, and bond of love and peace, (which ar the controversies between you and us,) these points are clearly set down in scriptures to the understand • ng of the spiritual, as the history of all the Bible, and the pract • se of the Apostles, and primitive churhes already alleged do plainly show and I am sure you will not deny, but they were spiritual.

Whereas you would • roue, they are not clearly set down to the understand of the spiritual, because thousands of ministers and people of the chur • h of Engl • nd, are of contrary judgment to us: first we have many testimonies of your own min • sters for the things that we defend against you as in this and other books we have manifested. Secondly, if we had no such testimony, yet what do you but make yourselves judges in your own cause, that though we bring never so plain evidence against you from the word, yet if you see it not, or will not see. it must not be needful for salvation. More unsound and popish doctrine hath seldom been taught But I leave vpō you the saying of Christ unto the Pharisees, If you • ere blind ye should not have sin. but now ye say, WE SEE therefore your sin remaineth, John, 9, 11.

And whereas you further bring against us, foreign churches, and special persons the chiefest lights of this age, first mind whither this be not • lso • ground of Popery, so to press human authority: and whether the Papists cannot for many of the • r heresies, allege the ancient fathers, (the chiefests lights of their ages ) whom yourselves I suppose will not deny but to be spiritual, seeing their test • monies are often alleged by your church in pulpits and in print.

Secondly, this your dealing is such, as both the better sort of the late Fathers (as Augustine for example, who was of m • nde that counsels, Bishops &c. ought not to be objected, for trial of controversies, but the holy scriptures only,) and the very superstitious Popelings themselves have condemned: saying that we are rather to believe • ne private • faithful man then a whole Council. and the Pope (himself) if a man have better a • thorety & reason on his side.

Thirdly your objection and pleading against us, is much like as if the Jews should have objected against Christianity. thus: It is not needful to salvation to believe that Jesus who was cruc • fied is the Christ: for then it would be clearly set down in scripture to the understanding of the spiritual Dan 12, 10, Prov, 8, 9, but that it is not for the thousands of priests and people of Israel, God's own people, among whom are the chiefest lights of this age, the Rabbin's, expounders of the law &c. which are undoubtedly spiritu • ll; are of contrary judgment to you his disciples, Job 7 47, 48, 49.52.

Fourthly, (as I have before answered) foreign churches, and the lights in them, have clearly seen the things we stand for, and do asse • t with us, touching separation from Antichristianism, gathering into and walking in a holy communion of Saints, and other points of greatest moment between you and us. as their Harmony of Confessions, besides other particular books many. do testify. If you object their particular judgment of your churches estate, I answer, that is not needful to salvation therefore they may miss in it; and yet be spiritual: for if men i • their own churches profess • e and walk in the truth so far as God gives them to see; and think better of other churches then they do deserve, such errors even the most spiritual are subject unto.

It was clearly revealed in scriptures that the Gentiles should be called under the Gospel, Deut 32.43 Gen. 12, 3 Psal. 67. &, 117 Isa. 11.10 Chr • st • imself plainly confirmed and commanded it, Mat, 28.19, John, 10, 16, Act 1, 8. Yet the Apostle Peter himself and many other spiritual men, perceived it not till in more special and particular wise it was to them revealed Act. 10.14, 28, 34, 3 • , &, 11, 2, • , 18. As Peter and many other godly then, failed in esteeming worse of the Gentiles then they should: so learned and godly men now may fail, in esteeming better of your est • t • then it doth deseru • .

The 5. Argument.

WHatsoeuer church is the mother of the faithful, is a true visible church, but the best of our assemblies are &c. Ergo true visible churches.

The preposition is true. because that regeneration and new birth, is only ordirarily wrought by the word preached, Rom, 10.8.17. I am. 1.18. 1, Pet. 1, 23. which is only and ordinarily found in the visible Church. Gal, 5, 26. 1 John. • . 5.

The assumption is true, because many are ordinarily new borne in our best assemblies, by the ordinance of preaching in public use and force; as appeareth by Mr Johnson's foresaid confession, as also by the means of the causes and means ordained by God to beget faith in the hearers, and efficacy, thereof, Esa. 55, 11, Rom. 10.17, and lastly, • y the infallible effects of faith, and fruits of the spirit, appearing in the true members of our best assemblies, Gal. 5, 6, 22.

Answer.

HEre you seem to bring a new argument, though it be but the old in a new coat: for take away this mantel wherewith your Major is clothed, The mother of the faithful ; and all the rest will be but regeneration and new birth. wrought as (you say) by the preaching in your best assemblies. Which things we heard in your third argument, and there refuted. As you here urge them again, I further answer, first to your proposition. Whatsoever church (say you) is the mother of the faithful, is a true visible church But Israel (say I) in her idolatrous estate, was the mother of the faithful ; yet was she not in that estate a true visible church: therefore your proposition is not true

That Israel then was the mother of the faithful, appeareth by the words of the Lord Plead with your mother Hos, 2, 2, That they which were willed thus to plead, were the faithful appeareth by the • r names Ammi & Ruhamah, that is, My people and she that hath obtained mercy. That yet notwithstanding this mother was not a true visible church, appeareth by the Plea to be made against her, She is not my wife, neither am I her husband : her estate being (as elsewhere is said) without the true God ; and her children that continewed in her idolatry, should obtain no mercy, Thus you see a church may be said to be the mother of the faithful, and yet not be a true Church of God.

You would confirm the proposition to be true. because regeneration and new birth is ordinarily wrought by the word preached, which is one lie and ordinarily, found in the visible church. I answer, the word preached is to be found also in the false church; as among Papists, Anabaptists, Anabaptists &c. as ordinary if not more ordinary then • n many of you • assemblies: and although there be not such or so many truths • aught among them as are among you, yet the word that is taught, hath effect for sanct • fication of life, in as great measure, as ordinar • lie appeareth in your Church of Engl.; where so much profannes reigneth, as all men see and know.

The church of Rome. is as yourselves pr • fe •• e, a fall • e church: yet doubt I not, neither do I think you doubt but sundry children have been borne unto God by that harlot. The church of En • land, it as we profess; a false church, your Ministry also fall • e: yet God which brought light out of darkness, hath brought forth, (I do • bt not,) and saved many of his dear ch • ldren among you. But let not thi • embolden the rest to continue with you in your false est • te: least they find no mercy with the Lord, because they be children of fornications.

To your assumption then I answer, as you first set it down. I grant it; yet will not your conclusion follow for it may be a mother of the faithful and yet no true visible church ; for the reason foreshowed, But as you afterward explain yourself saying; the assumption is true because many a • e ordinarily new borne, &c. I deny it thus to be true, because neither is a new birth ordinarily to be had among you neither have you God's ordinance of preaching in public use and force. If your people were truel • e regenerate they would not sin; m • stike me not, I know the remainders of sin dwell in the best men, and draw them to that they neither would not ought, but as th • Apostle saith, He that is borne of God sinneth not. And seeing so many and great sins reign in your best assemblies. how can you say you are regenerate? for I have before manifested, that ordinarily people are kept and continued among you, in an unholy communion with the wicked and irreligious, and nourished with s • perstition and idolatr • : these and the like things are no tokens of true regeneration.

Mr Johnson's confession, is before treated of: and will not import that which you would infer.

The causes and means ordained by God to beget faith, are not by Esa, 55 11, R • m, 10.17. proved to be among you For there is spoken of the word going out of the Lord's mouth: but your min • sters are not the Lord's mouth, because they ha • e not from him their calling; sending and authority to preach, b • t have it from his enemy Antichrist, and (as the Apostle saith) how shall th • y preach except they be sent ? Neither are they as the Lord's mouth : because they separate not the precious from the vile. Ier. 15 19.

Neither are the infallible effects of faith &c. proved by G • l. 5, 6, • 2. to be in the true members of y • ur best assemblies : For seeing faith is there said to work by love, and there is no love of Christ, unless men keep his commandments, and his command • ments are not kept in your idolatrou • assemblies: it cannot be affirmed that you love the Lord, if so you contine • continue in sin: or that you have true faith. But rather, seeing the contrary works of the flesh; which the Apostle there mentioneth. adultery. fornication, &c, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred &c. contentions. seditions heresies, &c. are found in the true members of your church, (for all among you are baptized, and all baptized are true members;) you are more rightly to be reputed unregenerate and vnsanct • fied, in that your sinnfull and confused estate. Neither have you Christ's power in your best assemblies to cast out the wicked from among you: but they are fostered. f • d, and blessed. with your word, prayers, sacraments, &c. and such as abstain from your idolatry and from communion with the wicked; you hate, reproach, excommunicate and persecute: that your church, is indeed, a mother to the profane. But a stepmother to the faithful.

The 6, argument,

THose Churches for whom the Churches of God rei • ice. are true Church • 2. Thes. 1.4.

But our best assemblies are such, for whom the churches of God rejoice.

Ergo.

The reason of the proposition is, because the churches of God have the spirit of discerning; a true church and ministry from a false; as John 10.27, 5. Ma • 24, 24 1 Cor. 14 32. and 10.15· 1 John. 4 1·

The assumption is true; because all the churches of God, rejoice, in our best assemblies; and have given us the right hand of fellowship and testimony of a true • • hurch; having joined our public confession with their Harmony.

Answer.

THIS argument is one and the same, with the third of your first Constlerations, save that it hath gotten the fashion of a syllogism. The in s • fficiencie of this reason, I have there shown, and thither do refer the reader. Further here I answer, that you turn the testimony of the reformed churches, to your best advantage, yet neither with equity, nor good success For they joy not for your best assemblies, more then for your worst. but for your Church in general, and the confe • sion of the same. They rejoice for every Bishop, Priest and Deacon, and for every Parish that maketh such confession. as Bishop Jewel in his Apology hath set down: Part of which Apology they have united with their Harm • nigh. And why bring you them as approving your best assemblies only. Your Lord's the Prelates may truly say you do them wrong: to apply unto yourselves the applause which other churches give to their Apology. They will tell you in your own words, the churches of God have the spirit of discerning a true church and Ministry from a false. But the reformed • hurches have discerned the national church of England, (whereof the Archb • shop of Cant· is Pastor • to be a true church; they have discerned the Di • cesan Bish • ps in England as well as the Parish Priests, to be true Ministers; and rejoice as well for their Sees, as for yo • r Parishes, having joined these all alike in their Harmony And what will you ( that suff • r s • many things for sep • rating in y • ur ch • rch. as yo • s • yd) answer to your right reverend Fathers, against whom like unnatural children, yo • hau • striven so long, and would have them with their j • risd • ct • on • ut out of your church th • t the P • r • sh priest or Deacon m • ght Lord it alone.

More particularly I answer: yo • r first propostion is unsound, & cannot be pro • ed from the scripture you allege 2 Th • s. 1.4. from which text yo • must conclude on this fa • h • on. P • ul and Siluanus and Timotheu • rejoiced of the Thesalonians in other churches of G • d, because of their patience and faith in all persecutions &c. Therefore the reformed church • rejoicing for the church of England. it must needs be a true church. The conseq • ence is denied. True churches may err in their judgment of another church, especially if the • be not rightly informed of the stat • thereof? as the reformed churches are not by that your Apology. Moreover he that mindeth the things recorded of that church, 1 Thes. 1, 3, 6, 7, 9 &c. and the different estate to be seen in your church: may soon percei • e their is no l • ke cause of joy for you • s for them; that if there be a l • ke effe • t, it is in error.

The reason of the proposition, is no better confirmed by the scriptures you allege: For when Chr •• t saith John. 10, 27, 5. M • sheep h • ar my voice and they will not follow a stranger ; doeth he send his sheep to other flocks, to try their shepherds by; or if I see my shepherd to be a th • ef, a hireling, a wolf? m • st I commit my sowl unto h • m, because other shepherds w • ll give him the right hand o • fellowship? In the other scriptures, say n • t the Apostles to the particular churches. and persons, judge ye what I sa • ? try ye th • sp • rit and believe not every spirit ; But you would not have our selves to iud • e or try, but to send over sea, and hear what other churches judge; if they ap • roue we must not disallow. You may as well bid us. put out our own eyes. that other men may lead us; and as soon will we foll • w you in that, as in this your popish counsel. We have learned to live by our own faith. and know that every man shall bear h • s own b • rden, and answer for himself to God.

But you will tell us, if we can judge and discern the true church: others can do it also and better. I answer, I may err judgment, & so may others, even whole churches, therefore let every man look how he judgeth, and how he de • endeth on other men: and let evey man's • udgment be tried by the scriptures. For this cause we say unto you; seeing we have fought for the judgment of other churches, but can get no answer. procure you some reasons from them, in defense of your church, ministry, worship, and ecclesiastical gouer • meant: and if by God's word they can just • fy those things, and evince that we have done evil to depart from you: we will return unto you. Otherwise if they rejoice neu • r so m • ch for your estate: we are ver • lie persuaded, that both they and you have more caus • to mourn, for the many abominations that are am • ng 〈◊〉

To conclude, consider in an example, the weight of your argument; for by the like re • son the envious ministers in Paul's time, mought thus ha • e just • fied themselves

That m • nisterie and ministration for which the Apostles of Christ rejoice, is true to be obeyed, and continued in. But our ministry and min • stration is such as for it the Apostle Paul rejoiceth, yea and will r • ioyce Philip • 16.18.

If you Answer the Apostle rejoiced for the preaching of Christ, not forth envious affection of the preachers, who might be damned themselves, notwithstanding their true doctrine: it is true. And so mind I for the reformed churches. They rejoice for the many truths you profess • e against Popery, (as we also do the like,) yet may you nevertheless perish for your false constitution, idolatrous worship, popish hierarchy and other transgressions that are among you. Amend your lives therefore, and turn your feet into the ways of peace, for if you rely upon man, an • make • lesh yo • r arm; and will not he • r the word of the Lord that condemneth your iniquities. you sh • ll perish in your sins, & other ch • rches shall not be able to excuse of s • ue you

Answer.

OUR separation is from your Church consisting of many assembly • all compact into ore bod • e, and from all your Ministry both prelacy and priesthood. We cannot tell which assemblies or ministers be best ; for they that seem best may prove worst, because they most deceive the simple: the wolf that comes in a sheep's coat, is no whit better than he that cometh in his native hiew: but he may do more harm, in that he is disguised. Reason would persuade us, that the Bishops are the preachers of your best assemblies, for they have greatest dignity, fatherhood and authority in your church: they preach in the highest and most honorable assemblies of the land; they are most careful to observe their oath of due obedience, to keep the canon • orders laws and ceremonies of your church and set themselves against such as secretly undermine the state of the church and ministry of England, yet openly stand members and professed friends of the same. They and their assemblies, are best ordered after the constitution and laws of your church. So that to speak as I think, I know not which assemblies be best, where the Leven hath sow red the whole lump; though I can guess which you do mean: but plain dealing about your ministers and as • emblies would have beseemed you best. Tel us therefore (when you next write) what ministers you mean; whether the Bishops, Deans, Doctors &c. that are in the cathedral churches; or the Doctors and Divines that are in your universities; or th • Parsons, Vicars, Lecturers that are in your Parishes? Again what Ministers they be whither Apostles or Prophets or Evangelists or Pastors or Teachers; for all these are ministers, Eph. 4. and meet it is to know your meaning: for though Apostles and Pastors be both ministers ordained of Christ, yet if one will say every Pastor is an Apostle, he is but a liar. So you see it is needful that we ransack these your ambiguous and general terms. Now for your argument; first I answer to the proposition, that though these fruits you mention, do many times follow the doctrine of Christ's ministers, yet not theirs only, nor always Not only because other men that are not in office of Ministry may by excercise of their gifts work such fruits, as appeareth 1 Cor. 14.1.31.3.24, 25. &c. I appeal also to yourselves, whether you think not that your best ministers, though silenced, or degraded, from all ministerial office: may not▪ when they teach, work repentance, fath and other fruits of the spirit.

Neither do these fruits always follow the doctrine of true ministers; for Noah preached 120· years yet followed there not faith, and repentance in the old world: Christ himself preached to Chorazin and Bethsaida; yet left the woe upon them; and complaineth (in Isaiah that he had labored in vain among the Jews: and of Israel it is said, All the day long have I stretched out my hand a disobedient and g • ynsaying people. To reason therefore from the effects, this man wrought faith by his teaching therefore he is a true min • ster; or this man wrought not faith by his teaching, therefore no true minister; is unsound, and vnconcludable by the scriptures

The • roofs of your proposition being examined, will be found to light for your purpose; if you mean that the officers doctrine, only, or always, is effectual for these thin • s, to weet, repentance, faith &c often I know it is; and always it hath effect, either to life or death in the hearers.

Your scriptures are, Ier, 23, 22. which showeth what true prophets should labor to do, namely to turn sinners from their evil way &c, (whereas the false prophets did otherwise, Eze, 13, 22:) but proveth not, that the prophets only did this; for the Priests and Levites did it also Mal, 2, 6, yea private men may often turn their neighbors from evil, Leu 4, 27.8. & 19.17. Prov. 31.26, Mal. 3, 16, Mat. 18.15. I am. 5.19, 20. neither proveth it, that the prophets always did this; for Isaiah crieth, Lord who hath believed our report ? Isa. 53.1 and it is written, that the Lord testified to Israel by all the Prophets and by all the Seers, saying, turn from your evil ways &c. nevertheless they would not obey but hardened th • ir necks &c. 2 Ki • , 17, 13, 14

The next place Isa 55.11. showeth the nature of God's word, which is effect •• ll to make better or worse as he will that sendeth it: not always t • convert, for Pharaoh was hardened by it: not only by the officers, f • r •• is hono • r is to all the Saints, to have the high acts of God in their m •• thes, and a two edged sword in their hands, to execute vengeance in the heathens, and corrections among the people &c. Psal, 149 6, 7.9.

The fruits whereby false prophets are known from true; Mat. 7. • 0, are not the effects of their doctrine by converting men only; for so many true prophets heretofore should have been judged false: but the doctrine it self, and the works of life and conversation, are the prophets fruits; which also may both be good, in them that have no office at all.

The next place Luk. 1.76. speaketh in part • cular of John's extraordinary office, and work wherein God employed him; and proveth your purpose no more then the other.

John, 1 • , 1, 2. speaketh of lawful enterers into the sheepfold by the door, and of thieves that clime up another way. What this will say for your ministers I know not unless, to prove them thieves; for their entrance into the ministry by the d • ore, that is, by Christ's ordinance i • his church they cannot show; no lawful office or calling have they to witn • sse for them Yea they are ashamed of their office, calling, and entrance by the Bishops, and secretly do disclaym that to their people, & pretend their gifts, graces and effects, for proof of their ministry, 〈◊〉 many of us that have dealt with them; do know: But what say I, secr •• lie ? nay openly and in print they have yielded, that th • y enter not in by Christ, but by a popish and unlawful vocati • n. The like seemeth • o be closelie implied in these your arguments, where you neither name what office your preachers have, nor how lawfully they come by it, as the reader may observe.

The words of the Apostle, 1 Cor. 9.1, 2, & 4.15. show two things, 1 • lawful office of Apostleship, 2 and God's blessing upon his labors in that office: neither of Which can be shown by your ministers; neither proveth it yo • r proposition more then the other places. For I hold with you that God's lawful ministers, are the principal, and most excellent ordinary outward means, for to work repentance, faith, &c. but not the only, as you would have it.

The Assumption, namely, that such effects do follow your preachers doctrine is denied. You refer us for the proof thereof, to that which you wrote before: and I also refer the reader to that which is before answered And here I will add a further demonstration, that true repentance cannot follow your preachers doctrine, in as much as they teach not true repentance, neither can teach it because their mouths are mouzled by your church that they may not speak For thus it hath enacted.

Whosoever shall hereafter affi • me that the form of God's worship in the Church of England established by law, and contained in the book of Common prayer &c. is a corrupt, superstitious or unlawful worship of God, or containeth anything in it, that is repugnant to the scriptures, let him be excommunicated ipso facto; and not restored but by the Bishop of the place, or Archbishop after his repentance and public revocation of such his wicked errors.

Whosoever shall hereafter affirm that the rites and ceremonies of the church of England by law established, are wicked, Antichristian or superstitious, or such as being commanded by lawful authority, men who are zealously and godly affected, may not with any good conscience approve them, use them or as occasion requireth subscribe unto them; let him be excommunicated, ipso facto, and not restored until he repent, and publicly revoke such his wicked errors.

Whosoever shall hereafter aff • rm that the government of the Church of Eng. under his Majesty by Archbishops, Bishops Deans, Archdeacons and the rest that do bear office in the same, is Antichristian or repugnant to the word of God, let him be excommunicated ipso facto, and so continue until he repent and publicly revoke such his wicked errors.

Whosoever shall hereafter affirm or teach that the form and manner of making and consecrating Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, containeth anything in it that is repugnant to the word of God &c let him be excommunicated ipso facto; not to be restored until he repent and publicly revoke such his wicked errors.

These and the like constitutions, hath your representative church of England made for maintenance of their worship, ministry, ecclesiastical government, rites ceremonies. &c, against which your forward preachers heretofore so earnestly inveighed, as being corrupt unlawful and antichristian: but now behold their mouths are shut, they may not preach repentance for the many abominations that are among you; if they do, they are excommunicated ipso facto, and then are they neither officers nor members of your church. Wherefore your ministers are either fain to hold their peace, and be such as the Prophet complaineth of, that rise not up in the breaches, nor make up the hedge for the house of Israel, to stand in the battle in the day of the Lord ; or else they preach for defense of your own invented worship, pompous clergy, and laudable ceremonies; and are such as the prophet blameth for having seen a vain vision, and spoken a lying divination, saying, the Lord saith it, albeit he hath not spoken. What reward then can they expect for their preaching but as the Lord there threateneth, that his hand shall be upon them, they shall not be in th' assembly of his people, nor written in the writing of the house of Israel. Wherefore if there be any weight or soundness in this your argument, it may be returned upon you thus. The preachers after whose public doctrine do ordinarily follow impenitency, and continuance in an evil • nd idolatrous estate of life in the hearers, ar not the true ministers of God. But after the doctrine of the preachers of your best assemblies, do ordinarily follow and appear impenitency, idolatry and other fruits of the flesh in the hearers: (as is proved by the answer to this and to the assumption of your 4 argument for the churches.) Therefore the preachers of your best assemblies, are not the true Ministers of God.

The 2 Argument

Such Ministers as have promise of salvation in their present standing, ar true Ministers of Christ.

But so have the ministers of our best assemblies; Ergo. &c.

Proof of the assumption,

Because the promise of salvation is given to such Ministers as 1, are faithful and wise stewards, giving the household meat in due season Mat, 24, 45.46. 2. build gold silver or stubble on the foundation 1 Cor 3, 12, 15. 3. continue in taking heed to themselves and unto learning 1 Tim. 4, 16. 4, feed the flock willingly, of a ready mind, as ensamples, 1 Pet. 5.4. 5. turn many souls to righteousness. Dan. 12, 3.6. Ez • 1, 3. Thou shalt save thine own soul.

But these things do the ministers of our best assemblies: Ergo.

Answer.

THe assumption of this argument I deny; and will consider the 6. reasons that you bring to prove it.

1. Are faithf • l • nd wise stewards &c.] but your ministers are your Lord Bishops st • wards or bayliffes, not the Lord Chr • sts: by them the • r m • uthe; are •• ened and shut a 〈◊〉 . For let them show when, where • & how God gave the st • war • shi • and key of the house to them, as he did to E • akin, Th • s should be first cleared, before they presume to administer as stewards. Did not the Bishop (after they had • romised their reverend obedience unto him) say unto ech of them, Rec • ive the holy Ghost wh • se sins thou dost forgive th • y ar forgiven &c, & be thou a faithful dispensour of the word of God, &c ? Thus have they their stewardship or • ffice of dispens • tion, fr • m their spiritual Lord, and reverend Father the • relate; who by his presuming to give the Holy Gh • st, should seem to be Christ, or rather, as I think Antichrist : but say you whether he be, when you next write. As is their calling, such is their administration: for, they feed not God's household, but confuse assembly • , wherein are many • rofane, • uch as Christ calleth dogs & swine, unworthy to be at his table; though your stewards admit them to the table of your church, to your most holy actions.

Neither give they them meat in due season ; for such diet as is meet for them, to rebuke them for their idolatrous estate, they give them not; false doctr • nes many they give them to feed on and such meats Christ never left for his household. Finally, if the Bishops silence them, & set unpreaching priests in their places, they feed their flocks no longer but leave them to the wolf. And are these your faithful stewards? They are such as was the steward Shebna, to whom the Lord said what hast thou to do • h • r • ? I will drive the from thy station. Isa, 22, 15, 19.

2, Build gol • si • uer or stuble on th'foūda •• ō First there is not yet a good foundation laid of your ch • rch; what then is your building ? There is no good foundat • on, because your church never yet stroke a holy and orderly covenant with Christ, according to the rules of his testament.

S • condly they ha • e not been called or sent of God to build, but either have intruded themselves, or else by the Bishops, the Lord's of your harvest, have these y • ur laborers been thrist forth.

Thirdly they bu • ld much stubble indeed, little gold or silver that will endure the s • re ; let the frame and constitution of your church, the worship, ministry and government thereof, be brought to the trial of God's word, and it w • ll burn these thin • s to ashes. Yet if your min • sters will be content their works shall burn; and will upon the true foundation build better▪ they • ay through the mercy of God be saved, which I heartily wish unto them all Otherwise, thus saith the Lord; Because th • y hau • deceived my people, saying PEACE and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and behold the others daubed it with vptempered mortar, say unto them which daub it with untempered mortar, that it shall fall I will destroy the wall that ye have daubed with untempered mortar, and bring it down to the ground, so that the foundation thereof shall be discovered, and it shall fall, and ye shall be consumed in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

3. Continew in taking heed to themselves and unto learn • ng. ] First, these words were spoken to one, that had a lawful office, calling and entrance and so serveth nothing for your ministers, that want all these. Secondly by learning is meant teaching of the people, (as the words following also show;) which he willeth Timothy to continue in: but this your ministers do not; for the doctrine that is most needful for the present state of the people, they teach not; besides, if their Lord's the Bishops forbid them, they continue not with their flocks, nor their flocks with them; but another hirel • ng comes in their place.

4. Feed the flock willingly ) First Christ's flock is of sheep, not of carnal worldlings, atheists, blasphemers, and other l • ke wild beasts of the forest: Christ would not have his children's bread to be cast unto dogs; as your ministers apply their word and sacraments, to the most profane and their seed.

Secondly to feed importeth also, to rule & govern ; but that your ministers do not, both they and their flocks are subject to other Lord's & gouerno • rs, the Prelates, which love preeminence, and have authority over your church to suspend, silence, and excommunicate priests and people. If the flocks of your Min • sters wer • Christ's sheep, they would not hear the voice of strangers, John, 10.5· But the people of your parishes, if the Bishop depose their shepherd and set a wolf or a blind guide over them they submit unto him, and take him for their priest; and their former shepherd feeds no more, but gives place to the stranger. O idol shepherd, that leaveth the flock Zach, 11, 17.

5. Turn many souls to righteousness. ) The contrary is true: they hinder many souls from righteousness, by preaching against the truth and witnesses thereof, by pleading for Baal, and toleration of the evils that are among you

6. Eze 3. Thou shalt save thine own soul. ) This was conditional, if he warned the wicked of the evil way wherein he walked; verse. 18.19. &c. which your ministers do not, (as before is shown,) but strenthen the people in an evil way. How then shall they save their souls? Again this was spoken to Ezekiel who had a lawful office, calling & sending from God, verse. 1.4.11. &c. and you should first have proved that your Ministers have these and then you might have spoken of their administration. But seeing they have neither true office, lawful calling, nor good administration: your conclusion is amiss, for the premisses do not prove it.

The 3. Argument.

THose ministers by whom the Saints are gathered, which do the work of the ministry, which edify the body of Christ, are the ministers of Christ. But such are the minist • rs of our best assemblies: Ergo

The prop • sition is made manifest by Eph. 4.11, 12, where it approves that these works are proper effects of the public ministry given by Christ: also none can ordinarily build up God's church, but such as God giveth to this end 1 Cor. 3.5, 6, 9, 10.

The assumption is proved, because the ministers of our best assemblies, do gather the Saints from the reprobates, making a manifest separation, and being gathered, do build the body of Christ in godliness, by their ordinary preaching in these assemblies.

Anwser.

THe assumption or 2, part of your argument that such are the Ministers of your best assembli • s, is denied; for these reasons.

1 In Ephes 4. it is said, He, (that is Christ, ) gave but your ministers are given by the Bishops: and for disobeyed • ence to them, are taken away again from your parishes: Christ never gave such hirelings

2. The ministers mentioned in Eph. 4, are Apostle • s Propets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers. Your min • sters are none of these, but Priests, Parsons Vicars, &c. whose very names, besides their offices, calling &c.) show them to be from Antichr • st.

3. Your ministers gather not the Saints, but persecute and scatter them as we know by experience: they gather (or keep being gathered) a cōfused idolatrous multitude, such as is in their parishes: the right way of gathering a church by separation from the world, they know not, or will not acknowledge.

4. They do not the work of Christ's ministry, which is aright to dispense the word, seals, censures &c according to the scriptures: but the work of Antichrists ministry, in reading the service book, marrying, burying, churching of women, & the like; as in your Leiturgie & other church books are set down.

5. They edify not the body of Christ, but build and fortify the tower of Babel their confused assemblies; which were constituted of ignorant idolatrous papists, and other profane, the very body of Antichrist: but the way of truth and such as walk therein, are evil spoken of by your Ministers, as their books, sermons, conferences &c, daily show. For all which reasons, the right conclusion of your argument should be this, that the ministers of your best assemblies. are the ministers of Antichrist.

To prove, your assumption, you give us your bare word, saying they do gather the Saints from the reprobates; making a manifest separatiō &c. This is to prove the same by the same: they do so because they do so; whereas all the world may may see, they do not so. For the church of Eng., and parish assemblies thereof, from which we have departed, consist of all sorts of persons; the ministers stand priests by law to the whole parishes, whereof all are partakers of the holy things of God, everyone baptized &c. and can you say, they are not then built in and with your church? And for separation, we know your priests, nor the whole parish, cannot excommunicate any, be they never so blasphemous, wicked or licentious: that power is in the Bishops courts And how few are excommunicated for their heresies, blasphemies, atheism or wicked life, who knoweth not: but for well doing, you have excommunicated many. And further, if any of your ministers should go about to make a separation or gather any other churches or assemblies, then are already by the laws of the land established and allowed they are ipso facto excommunicated, by force of the Canons of your church; made in Anno 1603. Can. 9, 11, 1 • . So still the open wicked remain edified with the rest in your church, & there is no such separation, as you against all men's knowledge do pretend. Your argument therefore is no better, then as if Jereboam's priests should thus have pleaded. Those priests that teach Jacob. God's judgments, and Israel his law, that put incense before the face of God, and and b • rnt offerings upon his alter, are the true priests of God: Deut, 33.10 But these things do we: therefore we are true priests. If you say their assum • tion is false; the like is said of yours; and your works plainly prove your assumption most untrue.

The 4. Argument

THose ministers by whose ministry and preaching, the overthrow of the kingdom of Antichrist is effected, are the ministers of Christ. But such are the ministers of our best assemblies: Ergo the true ministers of Christ The proposition is proved, 2 Cor, 10, 4 5.2 Thes 2.8. Reu, 14.6.7.8. & 18 12. & 11, 3, 11.

The assumption is manifest; for that the ministers of our best assemblies have weakened and thrown down and do still f • ght and prevail against the kingdom of Antichrist, by the power of Christ; 2. Thes, 2, 8, and Satan cannot cast out Satan. Mark. 3.23.

Answer

THere is no cause or person so bad, but many have store of such arguments as you bring for your ministers wherein you assume & take for granted that which is most needful to be proved: & if we will not believe your bold affirmation, contrary to our knowledge and the truth of your estate, your ministry hath nothing to justify or confirm it.

The assumption of this argument I deny; for your ministers have not thrown down Antichrists kingdo • e, but sought rather to hold it up. Here in stead of due proof, you tell us it is manifest, for that the ministers of your best assemblies have weakened &c, the kingdom of Antichrist. Thus again you prou the sa • e by the sain; & say that is manifest which is most obscur & unknown unto us: & to discover your falsehood, I will briefly show, how the scriptures that you bring for your propositiō ; do disprou your assumptiō.

The weapons of our warfare (saith the Apostle. 2 Cor, 10, 4, 5.) are not carnal but mighty through God, to cast down holds, casting down the imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God. &c. But the weapons of your ministers warfare, have been carnal, not mighty through God. For against the remaynders of Antichrists kingdom among you, they have sued to Parliaments, that the arm of flee • h might throw down the prelates, their courts, and corruptions but when the state hath not hearkened to them, what have your ministers done but submitted themselves to their spiritual Lord's; or at least wise ceased their warfare against them; and in their sermons and writings, have turned the edge of the • r sword against us that have departed from Babylon And what have they thrown down by their preaching these half hundred years? Is there any of their Romish abuses, that they have got reformed? any one of the rabble of Antichristian officers, courts, canons &c. cast out of the Church? Nay themselves now are ca • t out, if they speak or write anymore against them, as they did in times past. Do not all their people stand still in subjection under that Liturgy, prelacy, priesthood and popish ecclesiastical government which were set over them at the first? They have warred with the Antichristians, as did Israel with the Canaanites ; when they were mixed among them, and learned their works, and served their idols, which were their ruin. Therefore are these enemies, become thorns to the sides, and pricks to the eyes of your best ministers and people, vexing them in the land wherein they dwell; as God did threaten Num. 33, 55.

So when th' Apostle saith 2 Thes, 2.8. that the Lord shall consume (Antichrist with the spirit of his mouth, and abolish him with the brightness of his coming ; may we not hereby learn, that God's spirit is not in your ministers mouths, seeing they have not consumed or abolished, the Antichristian prelacy, and other abominations of that man of sin? nay it is evident they maynten Antichrist, for have they not all, received their ministry from the prelates & promised obedience to their ordinaris, yet your preachers wer wont to say the prelates ar Antichristiā. Again if your ministers had in them the spirit of the Lord's mouth, they would ere this time, have made a separatiō from the wicked, popish, & sinful generation, for God said unto Jeremiah, if thou take away the precious from the vile, thou shall be as my mouth. But this doctrine of separation, your ministers will neither teach, nor suffer to be taught; but lock up the kingdom of heaven as much as they can, that men may not enter: they blame us for nothing so much, as for separation, when nothing is more needful to be done, if we will keep the covenant of our God, and maintain that war which his own Majesty first proclaimed, between the woman's seed, and the ser • ents, Gen. 3, 15. so unlike your ministers be to the mouth of God. As unlike they are also to those Angels and witnesses Reu. 18. & 14. & 11. wh • ch cried the downfall of Antichrists pompous church and ministry, and called all God's children out of it, saying Go cut of her my people ; but your ministers cry that men should tarry within, as the potters, that contrary to God's commandment dwelt with the king (of Babel) for h • s work: and such as are gone out, they labor to bring back again, saying that with them is the true doctrine of salvation; their errors ar not fundamental their corruptions abolish not from Christ, all reformed churches ap • roue of the • r church and ministry: and many such Babylonian songs, have we heard among them And whereas in Re • , 14 there followed an Angel, that with a loud voice threatened all those that worshipped the beast and his image and received his mark in forehead or in hand; your ministers themselves stand under that wrath, whiles the mark of the beast is so open in the • r foreheads, by that false ministry of priesthood which they have received from the Bishops whose unlawful authority and jurisdiction they submit unto and teach men to do the like in wh • ch respect they cannot excuse themselves from worshipping the Beast, seeing that hierarchy and prelacy‘ is by the light of God's word and by the a • te • tation of the Christian reformed churches, and by your own confession heretofore, found to be Antichr • stian; if the Pope be Anti • hris • , & R • me be the throne of the Beast. Thus men may see that your ministers are far from overthrowing Antichrist kingdom & yourself have shown a good reason why: Satan cannot cast out Satan.

The 5. argument.

THose ministers which are the savior of death to the wicked, and life to the godly, are the true ministers of Christ, 1 Cor. 2.16.

Such are the ministers of our best ass • mblies. Ergo true ministers of Christ.

Answer.

THis naked argument, hath not a ragg to help to cover the falsehood of the a •• umption; wherefore • t may soon be stripped and let go. I dispr • ue that which you have as • umed th • s.

Your min • sters are not the savior of death to the wicked, because they suffer them in the bosom of the • r church; by their sacraments and blessin • s, confirm them in their sins, do not excommunicate the profane or vicious liver, but let them remain in mixture with the rest, and plead for such a people, to be the true church of God.

They are not the savor of life to the godly because they preach not the way of l • fe tr • ely, by separating from idolaters and idolatry, and gathering to a h • lie communi • n in the faith and obedience of the gospel.

B • t while • they persecute, preach, and write against God's children, which pr • ctise the or • inances of his covenant, and by fayr pretexts and tolorable reasons, seek to draw them back to their confused assembli • s they are l • ke those whom the Lord reproved thus; And will ye pollute me among my people, for hand • uls of barley, and f • r pieces of bread. and to stay the souls of them that should not die, and to give life to the soul • that should not live, in lying to my people, that hear your lies? Ezek 13.19.

The 6. Argument.

THese ministers that are hated of all men for the sake of Christ, are the true ministers of Christ; 1 Cor. 4, 9, 10.11..12.13.. 2. Cor. 6.4.5, 6.8.. Mat. 10: • 2. Such are the ministers of our best assembly • , Therefore true ministers of Christ.

The MINOR is proved, for that th • y are hated of the most part, and of the most evil of all sorts, as were the Apostles and desciples of Christ.

Consider what I say, • nd the Lord give thee understanding in all things, 2 Tim, 2.7.

Answer.

THis your last reason comes all too late, and will help your ministry nothing, For by the discussing of your former arguments We have seen that your ministers c • nnot prove their office, calling or entrance into the sheepfold, by Christ neither administer they according to his testament, but after their own invented leit • rgie laws, and Cannons, So that if they be hated of all men in respect of their ministry, they are not hated for Christ's sake; seeing they have none of his ministry, hated it may be they ar of many; so, are Fr • ars and Monks, and the rest of Anti-christs clergy, so it is written that the ‡ whore shall be hated, made desolate and naked, her flesh eaten and she burned with fire ; but it is the cause, not the suffering which makes the martyr, Whereas therefore your minor is proved by a bare affirmation only, that so it is; (as is your manner of disputing; you must take a better course, and prove things otherwise, ere we, will yield: for the Arian, and Anabaptists, and all sorts of religion, will Plead that both they and their ministers are hated for Christ's sake: but every tree is known by its fruits.

Yet have yea no such cause to complain of hatred ; for the ministry of your Church; is aproued and rejoiced for, (as yourself while are said, (of all the, foreign reformed Churches in the world; and at home we know, how it is reverenced, honored and obeyed. Your chiefest ministers being acknowledged for spiritual Lord's, and right reverend Fathers ; the inferior priests, as sound and excellent Divines, followed and flockked after by the people. And how they are provided for by rich Bishoppricks. & fat benefices, all over the Land; besides their daily entertainment, at great and rich men's tables; who is there among you that knoweth not, These are not signs of hatred.

Therefore let him that readeth consider indeed what you have said; and the Lord give him understanding in all things.

O England

ISRAEL thy Prophets are like the foxes in the wast places, Ezek. 13.4.

Positions concerning a true Church

INtending to set down some arguments against the corrupt estate of the present church of England; I thought it profitable to prefix some few positions, as a ground, whereby thou mayest (good reader;) judge the better of that which shall be said. Yet mean I not to handle this point at large, which in so many other writings thou moist profitably read: but only to observe such principal things as may give light unto the simple, who many of them mistake this doctrine of the Chur • h, and erring once, are • y seducers further led astray The Lord reduce all hi • that err, and stablish his servants in the truth forever.

THis our English word Church, through custom of speech is commonly used for the Temple or place where people come together for the worship of God: but they that are any th • ng excercised in religion, know, that it also signifieth the People, which gather together for divine service; and this is the • irst and proper meaning of the word Chur • h, as it is used to express the original scripture terms, Kahal and Ecclesia.

2. This name Church, we English men (which c • me of the Saxons) have received from the Saxon, German, and Duitch cames Cyri • , Kirch, Kerck ; whereby those nations now, do usually call their Temples or meeting-places: but the people which come together in them, they call the Gemeine, and the Gemeinte, that is to say, the Communialtie ; & we in our first English Bibles called it, the Congregation.

3. As all religion is learned out of holy scriptures, so the name and doctrine of the church, is from thence to be deduced; and there the Church is called in Hebrew Kahal or Kehillab, which signifieth a Convocation or Assemblie of people, and Ghnedah, that is to say a Congregation : in Greek it is named Ecclesia, that is in like manner, a Conuocation or people called forth to an assembly, and sometime Synag • gee, that is a Congregation : which word is also used for the place where • n the people assembled.

4 The Hebrew word Kahal is diversely used; sometimes more generally for a great or universal multitude, as of nations and of pe •• les sometimes more particularly for an a •• embly of one nation: as of the Israelites; sometimes for apart of them, as the Elders and Governors; or some of the tribes of Israel apart; or some of all the tr • bes, even men, women and children: and indifferently for any assembly, and this not only of God's people, but of heathens also & infidels.

5. Likeweise the Greek word Ecclesia is of as large extent and signification; used sometime for the church • enerally, sometime for a particular church or congregation in a city: someti • es more • articula • lie in a house or family, sometimes (in the Greek version of the old test • meant) for an as • embly of Governors, or company of Prophets, or congre • at • on of the people: and finally for any as • embly lawful or unlawful, of good men or of evil.

6. These words thus genreall, are in more special sort both by the scriptures, and by use of speech among all religious peo • le restrained and applied to such Assemblies and congregations as are called and gathered for divine excercises: and so our English name of church is attributed peculiarly to spiritual or religious assemblies, called ecclesiastica •• and not to any other assemblies civil or pol • t • call.

7. Of religious or ecclesiastical assemblies generally considered, there ar many s • rts in the world, all disallowed of god, save one sort only which he acknowledgeth to be his, and hath separated to himself from all the rest.

8. The many false sorts, may be reduced unto four; 1 The as • emblies of Pagans or heathen people, which profess • e some God, God's, or, Goddesses, whom they do worship, ignorantly, having cha • ged the truth of God into a lie, and so serving creatures, not (indeed) the creator, which is blessed forever. Amen. 2 The assemblies of Jews who profess the true God (after a s • rt) and allow the writings of Moses a • d the prophets, b • t abhor Christ Jesus our Savior, and reject the new testament, 3 The a •• emblies of Mahomis • s, as Persians, Turks, Moors, &c. wh • ch profess also after their manner, that one true God of whom Moses and the prophets wrote, and acknowledge Chr • st to be a Pro • het sent of God, yea and the breath or s • irit of God yet believe • hey not that he is God, or the son of God, or savior of the world, but follow the lies and fablies of their false prophet Mahomet. 4. Finally the churches or assemblies of false Christians, which profess God and • i • Son Christ, into whose name they are baptized; but by the • r works do deny him, and by their erro • rs and heresies, do overthrow the truth of rel •• ion.

9. The 1 thr • e sorts, P • gans, Jews, and Mahometists, beca • se of thei • so open and manifest d • ny all of Christ and salvation by him, are generally generally of Christians reputed as no Churches, the la • ter are re • uted no true but false church • s, and so also do they esteem of true Christians, and one of another Herevpon is continual controversy be • ween true • nd and false chr • stians, which is the true church, and how it • ay be known.

10. To help the weak and doubtful in this case, I will so truly and plainly as by the grace of God I can, describe the tr • e Church, which in the holy scr •• tures is called the Congregation and chur • h of God, consisting of godly and holy peo • le named Saints ; opposed to the wicked or malignant church • s, the Synagoues of Satan.

11. The true church is a people called of God by the Gospel, from the world, unto the communion or fellowshi • of his son Jesus Chr • st, in whom they are coupled and built together. to be the habitation of God by the spirit

12 The church is said to be a people, nation or generation, because it consisteth of many persons, or of a m • ltitude little or great: for though a particular Christian is called, and of the church; yet no man is a church or congr • gation,

13. It is a people called ; because every concourse or assembly is not a true church: none of themselves can come unto this estate, unless they be called or drawn thereunto: and they are said to be called of God, because he only calleth and draweth men unto Christ with a holy calling; and addeth them to his church, no human power or authority • s able to do it,

14. The Gospel noted to be the the means of our calling, he maketh known unto his people outwardly by his word spoken and written, and inwardly by his holy spirit: and thus the Church are all the taught of God.

15. The state out of which the Church is called, is said to be out of or from the world, whereby is meant, first Satan the Prince of this world, from whose power they are turned unto God; secondly, the wicked people of the world, called the children of the Devil, from whose communion and fellowsh • p in their religion, and all other wicked actions, we must be separated, thirdly, the corruption of nature in our selves, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, all which are of the world. and wh • ch we must hate and crucify, & so turn and become like little children, even borne again, that we may see the kingdom of God

16. The estate whereunto God called his church in this life, is generally to the communion (or fellowhsip) of his son Jesus Christ, as being their only mediator and Savior, the Prophet Priest and King of the church; which they believe • ng and professing, are all • o made partakers (in a proportion and in their measure) of these three offices with him

17. Jesus Christ is the Prophet ra • sed up of God unto his people to teach them all that God commanded him which also he did, both by himself, and by the M • nistery of his servants sent of him. And as all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hid in him, so him the church m • st hear; for all heavenly wisdom and knowledge is to be learned of him; and every person which shall not hear this Prophet, shall be destroyed out of the people.

18, This Prophet call office of Christ, he hath communicated with the church, by giving to the same his word for their instruction and comfort, and grafting the same within them, his spirit also as an Anoynting to teach them all things giving gifts also, or ministers, to open and apply the same unto their souls, likewise power and freedom by witness profession and practice, to hold forth that word of life as lights in the world: thereby to preach unto others the fa • th of Christ, to ed • fy and build up one another daily therein, to provoke unto love and to good works. to admonish and reprehend for evil and iniquity; to forgive and comfort one another in the bowels of Christ, whose word therefore all ought to labor that it may dwell plenteously in them, that if any man speak, it may be as the words of G • d.

19. Jesus the son of God, is also the great high priest or Sacrificer of the Church▪ by whose obedience, and sacrifice or oblation of h • s own body and blood, the church is cleansed from all sin, and reconciled to God: by whose intercession the church, with the holy actions & oblations of the same, are accepted of God, and made heirs of blessing.

20. And this his Pr • estly office, is 〈◊〉 imparted to his church, as they have not only interest in his death and sufferings whereby they are reconciled to God, but also are themselves made a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacri • ices acceptable to God by him: giving up their own bodies a living sacrifice; mortifying their members wh • ch are on earth and crucify • ng the flesh with th • affections and l • sts; offering up contrite and broken h • rts, with sacrifices of praise confe • sing to his name; and praying not o •• lie every man for himself, but one for another, doing good and d • stributing to the nece • sities of the Saints, suffering affl • ction for the Gospel and finally if they be called thereunto, pouring out the r souls unto death f • r the truths sake.

21. The Lord Jesus Christ, is also the governor and king over Zion God's h • lie mount, and sitteth at his Fathers right hand and reigneth till all his enemies be made his footstool, being a King, judge, and lawgiu • r, to h • s people, commanding and ruling them by his word and spirit, j • dging them in justice and equ • ty, preserving and defend • ng them by his almighty power, from all their enemies.

22. And this his kingly office he so communicateth with h • s church; as they are by him preser • ed and defended from all adversary P • wer, freed from the dominion of sin and tyranny of Satan from subjection to the world, and servitude unto men: and restored to the joyful lib • rty of the Ch • ldren of God, the world and all things in it made theirs: that howsoever they have still to combat with the Devil to wra • tell against principalities & powers: to suffer hatred & affliction of the world; an • to war with the fleshly lusts, which fight against the so • l: yet neither dea • h, nor life, nor Angels, nor principalities, nor power • , nor, things present nor things to come nor, height nor depth, nor any other creat • re, shall be able to separate them from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord; who hath made them K • ngs and Pri • s • s unto God even his father, and they shall reign on the earth, till h • uin • ser • ed here the • r time, they come to reign with him in glor • , in • he heavens forever

2 • . Unto the participation of these promises and heavenly graces, are all peo • les • r • uoked by the Gospel • reached; and such as obey the c • l •• ng of G • d, an • come unto Chr • st, are united unto him the • r head and • ed • at • r, from whom • proceedeth the Justification and sanctificatio • of t • e Churc • .

24. Justification is the partaking of Christ's just • ce or righteousness, • n his fulfilling and obeyin • the law of God, and d • scharg • ng all ou • depts and trespasses by his death; so freeing us from the curse, and set • ing us in full favor with God and under his bless •• ng: which righteousness of Christ's, is fully made ours, and imp • ted to us by faith for our justification,

25. Sanctification is the partak • ng of Christ's holiness by being graffed with him to the simill • tude of his death and resurrection; whereby the corruption of nature or old man in us, becometh crucified and buried with him; and the new man or image of God is put on and renewed daily in a holy conversation.

26. H • th • rto of the Churches union and communion with Christ her head: now followeth the union of the churches member • , one with another: which is their • cou • ling together as one body by the communion of one and the same spirit, faith, and love,

27. The union of the members one with another is to be considered generally or totally; and particularly. Generally as the ch • rch is called universal or ca • holik, comprehending the whole family of God in heaven and in earth, and the fraternity or brotherhood of all Christians which are • n the world: in whom there is but one faith, in one and the same God by that one Lord Ies • s Christ, throu • h one Sp • rit. Thus have they all one Father which is God; one mother, Jerusalem which is above, and by the mediation of Chr • st are all made one, baptized by one spirit into one body, and all made to drink into one spirit.

28 More Particularly, they that are called of God, and members o • • he Church universal, are united and gathered into many churches or congregations, in several cities & countr • es: every of which churches being joined together in the profession and practice of the Gospel of Christ, have his power and presence with them, and is to conuene or come together in one for the worsh • p of God, and performance of public duties

29. Whatsoever promise or blessing of God, is bestowed on the church on earth generally considered: the same may be apprehended & enjoyed by every particular church, (though not in like measure by all: as the promises general, and examples particular of the church, in Corinth, and others mentioned in the scr • pture, do confirm.

30. The Testament of Christ showeth us no Prouintiall, National, Em • erial, or other l • ke Church, having several meetings or a •• emblies, and special Pastors over the same: neither, since th • Apostles Prophets & • vangelists were taken from this world, are there any other lawful Bishops or Church-governors, then the Bishops or Overseers of the particular churches; neither ever was there other lawful Head, Lord, or Lord's spiritual, of the Church, then Jesus Chr • st alone.

31 Unto the ch • rch are to be admitted, all unto whom the covenant and promise of God doth apperteyn; and they are so many as the Lord our God shall call; and all those are called (in the judgment of man,) which having heard the word of God, do profess repentance from dead works, and faith in God, by Jesus Christ the alone Savior of • he world, and promise obedience to the word, through the holy Ghost the sanctifier of the elect. Such of all sorts and estates of people in the world, are with their seed to be received into, and nourished • n the church; their ignorance being holpen by instruction, their weakness borne by lenity, their faults corrected i with love and meekness; and their feeble consciences comforted with the promises of God.

3 • . Out of the Ch • rch are all s • ch to be kept, as are profane, worldly and wicked, until they be called of God unto repentance & faith in his promise: and out of it are to be cast all such as sin against the law of Go • , by error or corruption, in doctrine or conversation; and will not by pr • uate or public admonistion, be reclaimed and amended

33; Every particular church or congregation throughout the world hau • ng equal interest in Christ, and in his word or covenant: consequently ha • e equal power. and ought to have a l • ke care; to practice all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord, standing fast in the l • berty where with Christ hath made them free.

34, Everyone that would be saved, ought to join himself unto some particular church, where God's name is se • , and known, and called upon: that in and with the same, he may grow up in the fa • th, and love of Christ unto salvation.

35. Although the church consisteth only of s • ch as are called, yet these are of two sorts, some outwardly only and for a time, which though they be in the church yet are they not indeed of the Church; othersome called also inwardly effectually and forever. So that the churches on earth, have many hypocrites and reprobates for members of them: whose secret sins, defile themselves alone. Howbeit the Lord knoweth them that are his; & a true Christian may by the word 〈◊〉 spirit of the Lord, and fruits of his faith, have assurance that himself is the Lord's; of others, he is for their outward good profession and conversation which he seeth, to hope and judge as of himself, leauin • the final doom and judgment, until the Lord come, who will l •• hten things that are hid in darkness and make the counsels of the harts manifest; and will reward every man according as his works shall be

36, The best churches on eart are always subject to have open & grievous sinas of all sorts, break out in them: all which • niquitie • m • st speedily be redressed, and every church purged by repentance or casting out of the impenitent; least wrath do come on all the congregation,

37. For churches by sinning and impenitence therein, may forfeyt their covenant, and be forsaken of God; and for their adulteries by d • uorced from Christ, and so left of his people, the candlestick being removed out of the place.

38, By this which hath been said, may appear, that every people called of God into covenant and communion, with Christ, and one with another, and, so walking, though with much weakness, ignorance and daily syn; is to be esteemed a true church of God: but they that are not so called and come into covenant with the Lord, howsoever they may profess many excellent truths, yet want they the main essential thing which, makes a true church.

39, A church thus having the essence or being: by ref • rence unto or conjunction with Christ, which is a secret and spiritual thing; cannot now as it is a church, properly be seen with carnal eye Whereas then the church is said to be visible, it is figuratively spoken, and after a sort; to weet so far as by a people's profession and conversation seen or heard, men may discern and judge, by the rules of God's word

40. As Christ the head and savior of his body, cannot be found or known by the wit or wisdom of man, but by the revelation of God: so the Church which is his body kingdom and spouse, ca •• ot be discerned by natural or human skill, but by the manifestation of God alone through his word and spirit.

41, Hence it is that the true churches of God, are both contemned and condemned of the world as heretics, schismatiks, sedetious, &c. when the false antichr • stian assemblies are highly honored and regarded. For they wh • ch understand not the word of God, (wh • ch natural men do not,) nor have the spirit of God, (which natural men have not) how should they rightly judge of, or discern the Church of God?

42. And Satan to deceive the simple, doth deck his synagogues with many ornaments of the church of Christ, as the preaching of the word, prayers, sacraments discipline &c he procureth them also honor amplitude and prosperity: when from the true church ofttimes he taketh not only outward peace and glory; but bereaveth the same of Christ's public ministry of the word and sacraments; by, persecuting, imprisoning, banishing and killing the officers of the Church, and scatteting the members.

43. Yet is not Satan's synagogue for all the pomp thereof, a church of God; because it enjoyeth and useth not his word and holy things aright according to his heavenly ordinance, Neither can the true churches be spoiled or deprived of the word of God, which is graffed in them, and able to save their souls, is seed immortal and endureth forever: but in the mids of their many afflictions, they both hold forth that word of life, as lights unto the world; and by the same do edify and comfort one another, in the faith and fear of God; whose power and presence they have with them in all estates and places.

44 So to conclude, a true church is a sacred communiallty, consociate and knit together into a mystical body, whose head is Christ; whose members, Christians of any nation or condition; whose soul is the word and whose spirit is the spirit of the living God: who gathereth together dry desolate bones, layeth synewes on them, makes flesh to grow, and covereth them with skin, and putteth breath in them that they may live, and stand upon their feet an exceeding great army Unto him for all his blessings, be praise in his churches throughout all generations; Amen & Amen.

Of his PROBABILITIES,

THE first means whereby Mr BERNARD would dissuade from the truth, which he calleth Brownism, are Probabilities or lik • lihoods that the way is not good : and they are in number (as himself hath cast them,) seven.

• 1. The Novelty of it.
• 2. The agreement thereof with ancient schismatiks.
• 3. The ill means by which it is mayteyned, namely, by abuse of scripture & deceauable reasonning.
• 4. The want of approbation of the reformed Churches.
• 5. The conde • nation thereof by all their Divines, (vidz of the church of England.)
• 6. God's judgment against it
• 7. The • ll success • it hath had.

Such l • kelihoods as these, the Papists heretofore with as much color and truth, have alleged against the church of England; heathens and enemies have in former ages objected the l • ke things to the church of Christ, and Mr Ber. speaketh but that which hath been spoken before him, fulfill • ng the meas • re of his forefathers. But to the particulars.

The Nov • lty he maketh to be in differing from all the best reformed churches in Christendom But if a Papist had to deal with him, he would bring those reformed churches also within the c • mpasse of Novel • y : and then Mr Bern. would flee, (as his brethren before him have done) to the scriptures for antiquity : as he would answer a Papist, so w • ll I answer him; let the scriptures speak for the differences between other churches and us. But here Mr Bern. is mute; and meddleth not with th • s controversy he thought belike the very name of Noveltie and of the reformed churches would fray the simple

If it be Novelty to differ from the reformed churches, then may he blame his own church • f Engl. more then us, seeing it differeth from those churches in m • e and weightier points then we do: yea it hateth persecuteth silēceth & excommunicateth those ministers & people, that stand up & plead for such things as the reformed churches have and practice. Again these churches have rejected and written against many of the Antichr • stian enormities that are now in England. So if it be likely, we are not in the truth because we d • ffer from the churches in few things; it is more likely Mr Bern. and his brethren, are not in the truth, because they differ from them in many Wherefore let him first pull the beam out of his own eye. Again where he standeth upon the hard words which some of us have uttered of the Presbytery &c. if he had not an evil and partial eye he mought have seen many moe hard & reproachful words used by his right reverend Fathers, and fellow priests against the Presbytery and discipline which the reformed churches have, and the reforming ministers of Engl. would have. That still his weapon entereth into his own bowels.

His 2 likelihood he maketh to be our agreement with ancient schismatiks : yet any points wherein we agree with them in evil, he nameth not much le •• e proveth; but referreth us to Mr Giffords pains herein, who had long since his answer by Mr Greenwood to every particular of that his pretended consimillitude between the Donatists and us; to which answer I r • ferr the reader. Again, this objection is such as the Papists make against the church of England for so N. D. compareth Protes •• nts with Donatists ; and let us see what answer the Priests of England can make for themselves that will not as well, if not better, clear us And to come a little near to this o • r adversary, we could p • t Mr Ber. in mind of his own ways, wherein he might see himself more like a schismatik then any of us: for we openly profess our departure fr • m the ch • rch of England, as from a false church, so proved by evident gro • nds out of G • ds word; whereas Mr Bernard holding it to be a true ch • rch & ab • ding in it, yet he and a hundred with him, made not long since a pretended co • enant tog • there; whereby they separated from the unpreaching ministers, and all that hate to be reformed Yet are those rea • ing priests of as • ood authority by the Laws and Canons of that Church as himself, and the Conformists of far greater esteem in this church, then the Reformists. Whether this be not a plain schism, and Mr Bern a factious person thus to carry h • mselfe in a church, let himself say: as also whether he be not f • r this, ipso • acto excomm • nicated, by force of the • r own Canon which saith,

Whosoever shall hereafter separate themselves from the Communion of Saints as it is approved by the Apostles rules in the Church of England, and combine themselves together in a new brotherhood, accounting the Christi • ns who are conformable to the doctrine, governments, rites and ceremonies of the church of England to be profane and unmeet for them to join with in Christian profession: let them be excommunicated ipso facto, and not restored but by the Archbishop after their repentance and public revocation of such their wicked errors. Into like danger doth he come by Canon. 11, and 12.

The il means, by which our cause is maintained, he make • h to be strange expositi • n of scripture, &c.

First Mr Bern. here walketh still in the Papists steps, who object the like unto the Protestants. Let an indifferent reader ( say they) peruse the learnedst book of these reformers, and he shall see in them false allegations of Fathers, corruptions of scriptures, fathers, and councils &c. Sec •• dly I answer our expositions may seem strange to such as are themselves strangers from God: but the Godly wise can discern, to whom (if they have read our books,) I lean the judging of this probability. Now th • s old calumniatiō which Satā laid vpō the Saint, how truly Mr B • rn. hath laid upon us, let his proofs show, which are in these two particulars. First, that one of us saith, All the truth is not taught in the Church of E • gland, and to prove this, Act. 20 21. is cited. Which one of us thus citeth Act. 20 and where; Mr Bern. nameth not. Good cause we have to suspect his faithfulness; for in his book he chargeth us with some errors, which we hold not, as after shall appear. And he that would so injury the whole, what may we think he w • ll do for a part. I suppose therefore the party cited that scripture to prove the whole truth ought to be taught which because it may be questioned whether it be needful at all times, therefore the Apostles example is brought. As for the Priests of England, 〈◊〉 they preach not the whole truth, is proved by their daily practice, who balk many truths, touching the church, ministry worship, governmen • &c. as all that observe their doctrines know very well. It is proved • lso by the laws and canons of their church, which excommunicate • ll such as shall by the truth reprove the falsehoods and abominations that are among them, as before in this treatise is shown. And Mr Bern. is very silly, if he expect any scriptures to prove what is now taught in his church. Furthermore if it be granted him, that Act. 20. were by someone of us alleged for the purpose he pretend • th: yet it is no more l • kelihood that our cause is evil, then that his brethren's cause and plea against us is evil, for they without all doubt do allege scriptures for to prove things done in Engl: which it is not posible by the scriptures for to show, See before in this book pag. 43. &c 44. But what speak I of others Mr Bern, himsefe is fain to use such colors, else would the glory of his church soon fade: for in the 48, page of his book he allegeth God for witness that they are his people, 1 by giving them his word, Psa, 147.19 20. 2 by his effectual working thereby, Ier, 22, 22, therefore there is the voice of the son of God, John. 5.25, &c. If these be found and sufficient proofs, that England hath God's word, because Israel had it, and so in the rest; then why may not men allege like Scriptures and proofs against them, saying, They are stained with their own works, and go a whoring with their own inventions ; Psal. 106, 39. from the Prophets of Jerusalem, is hyprocrisie gone forth into all the Land, Ier. 23.15, I have not sent these Prophets saith the Lord: yet they ran &c. Ier. 23.21. and the like. So then Mr Bern. must either bring better reasons for himself, or else he may blush to blame others for that wherein himself is more faulty then they; if they be faulty at all.

The other particular which he specifieth is, that places setting forth the invisible church &c. we bring to set forth the visible church by ; as namely; 1. Pet. 2.9, 10. But Mr Bern. shows his reader no reason at all, why that Scripture must be understood of the invisible church, as he Sayth; and it is an easy matter for him to find faults without reasō, in any mans writing. That place of Peter, (as the wise reader may perceive,) Speaketh of and to the visible or Sensible church: for th' Apostle wrote to the visible Christians, the strangers that then dwelt in Pontus Galatia, &c. and this which he speaketh to them in Chap· 2, 9.10. is as Moses of old spake to the visible church of Israel, Exod. 19:6. Again, he mentioneth the end of their calling to this dignity, vidz. to show forth the virtues of him that had called them out of darkness into his marvelous light ; which whether it appertaynes not to the visible church, I leave it for every true member thereof to judge. And such as these, are the exceptions that D. Allison (to whom he referreth us,) took heretofore: which because they are unworthy a Dr. of Divinity, we have though best to pass by, as unworthy of reply, till further occasion.

The 4. likelihood is, that we have not the approbation of any reformed churches Churches for our cause. This is much like his first probability, before answered, and seemeth to be a main propp to uphold the church of England, which love to make flesh their arm. The reader may see this point thrice urged before in this book, and thrice answered. I refer him also to our Letters unto Mr Junius whom Mr Bern. mentioneth: & finally to the Apology of the church of England, where themselves say, unto the like objections of the Papists, th • truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ dependeth not upon councils, (add also, nor upon Churches;) nor as S. Paul saith, upon the judgments of mortal creatures.

The 5. is, the condemnation of this way by the Divines (of England) both living and dead, &c. But this is no other likelihood then it is like Mr Bern. (if he had then lived) would have alleged against Christ himself, when the learned Priests, Rabbin's, and Divines of Israel, condemned his way and doctrine John. 7.48.49. & 19, 7. &c. If these learned English Di • ines have confuted us, let Mr Bern. or any show the scriptures and reasons by which they have done it: if they were our adversaries without reason, (as some of them he mentioneth, show little or none at all,) wise men will esteem them accordingly But if such a Divine as Bredwel do but call our curse a by-path, this sentence is authentic enough, for Mr Bern to put in his book.

The 6. is, the Lord's judgment giving sentence with them (of England) & against us. These things as they are before more prudently urged, both for the good success of the English ministers, and bad ys • ue of many of us, so I leave the reader unto the answers before made pag, 13. &c, 23. &c. Only I would advise Mr Bern. to look better to his words, when he next write, and not to set down such positions, as may tend to Atheism or Judaism; as wherein his brother Boltons case that hanged himself he Sayth, which end the Lord letteth not his special instruments to come unto, &c. A Jew upon this grant, would trouble Mr Bernard to defend Christianity; seeing Judas hanged himself, who was a far more special instrument of the Lord, being an Apostle; then Bolton that was but a ruling Elder; and not the first brocher of this way, as Mr Bern. very untruly (upon Mr Giffords report, if he so reported) doth allege. Besides that Judas after a sort repented and acknowledged his sin, and was not (that we know of) excommunicate, yet came to that woeful end; whereas Bolton for revolting from his faith at Paul's cross, was dealt with, excommunicated, and so died (for ought that is known) without repentance, a member of Mr Bernard's church. See before, pag. 23.

The 7. is, the ill success it hath had, these very many years, being no more increased.

The natural man perceiveth not the things of God; but judging by the outward appearance, gives unrighteous judgment. If M. Bernard had lived in Noah's days, and seen his 120. years labors and preaching spent in vain, how would he have stumbled at the work of God, that gave his word no other effect in the world? And loe it is written as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the Days of the Son of man. But had Mr Bern. been in the days following, when Israel very few in number walked from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another people, and notwithstanding the promise of multiplication, yet in 200. years and mo • , had increased but unto 70. souls, and as many moe years were in Egyptian bondage: and had he in the mean while seen the Princes of Israel, and Dukes of Esau with the Kings that reigned in his land, before any King in Israel. how would this man (may we think) have gathered likelihoods, or rather have concluded out of doubt against the poor afflicted church of God? But it is no new thing to hear this pleading from such carnal gospellers. Well, not totell him of God's gracious work in bringing many to this truth and causing moe to listen after it daily, let Mr Bern. look to himself and his fellow Reformists, and if his right eye be not blent, let him acknowledge God's hand a • ainst themsel • es, who heretofore had so many fautors, and that not of the meanest in the land: yet now are repressed as troublers of the church, and their counterfeit reformation further from all likelihood of effecting then was at the first. And this much of his unlikely likelihoods.

Of his REASONS.

HIS reasons now follow, of more force (as he pretends) then his bare probabilities. These are threefold, taken 1 from the evil of the entrance, in to this way ; 2 from our persons so greueously sinning in this way ; 3 from our opinions which are altogether erroneous and false.

The first sort of reasons, have this foundation.

The entrance is very sinful and cursed. Because of these 2 great evils. 1 That we do not only condemn corruptions and the notorious wicked, but also forsake all former Christian profession amongst them. A man must cast off that word there with them which made them alive; also the faithful messengers of God, the Fathers which begat him: yea he must renounce all fellowship of the godly there &c.

But we may with the Prophet truly complain of this man, that his mouth is full of cursing and deceit and fraud; for how often have we in our public writings protested our consent in all the holy doctrines that themselves profess: only because we cannot enjoy them without Antichristian abominations; which the Prelates impose, and the Priests and people practice we have separated from those assemblies, where idolatry is publicly set up and maynteined from those blind guides that would seem to make concord between light and darkness, Christ and Belial, and under show of many truths, seduce men's souls unto destruction. Did the church of England forsake all former Christian profession among the Papists, when they left the Pope and some of his Prelates, Mass, images &c. If not; then neither do we that have left but the remnants of Popery yet retained; and do walk in the truth to our knowledge and utmost power as God enableth us; not casting off any jot of his word, nor any faithful messenger of his, or other godly person, as this adversary calumniateth. His heart knows better, though it sendeth forth such bitter waters.

2. Next this he saith with such a renunciation of truth, must be retained, much untruth : the particulars are 1 that men must believe our way to be the truth of God ; 2 and then condemn their church as a false church.

Whether our way be not the truth of God, let the Godly judge by his word; by it also let them try the estate of the church of England. But Mr Bern. begging the question, will have things to be taken for untruths, before trial or due conviction. To help himself he seeks advantage by that we have published as he saith under our hand, that the differrences between us and them, are only such corruptions as are by us set down. Though the word only be not ours, but Mr Bern. own; yet to let this pass as ordinary with him, what gathers he from it? Corruptions saith he, do not mak • a false church, but a corrupt church, (make the worst of it that can be;) as corruptions in a man, maketh but a corrupt man, and not a false man. First let the reader observe that he speaks not a word of those corruptions which we set down; neither indeed is he able with our corruption to plead for them. Secondly it is very corrupt and gross that he would persuade, no corruptions can make a church to be false: for then rebellious Israel, though they corrupted all their works, was a true chuch still; but Moses foretold that for corrupting themselves, they should be none of God's children but a froward and crooked generation. Now let Mr Bern make the best of it he can. His simillitude of a man is not fit in this case. A man is a substance, but a church consisteth in relation or reference to Christ, as a wife to her husband. But if a man's wife play the whore never so often and openly, she may be, by Mr Bern. doctrine esteemed a corrupt but not a false wife. Such distinctiō he may carry to the stews. Corruptions there may grow in churches and they yet be true churches as at Pergamos, Thyatira, &c. corruptions also there may be that will make true churches false; as in Israel and Rome, where first wre assemblies of Saints ; afterward they became whores and habitations of Devils. And there may be such corruptions in the constituting of a church that embraceth much truth, as will make it from the first a false church, as in Samaria, 2. Kin. 1 • , 27.28. &c

HIs second sort of reasons, is from the grievous sins that are among v • , by reason whereof (from our own ground) we may not (saith he) be joined with. The sins he reckoneth 6.

First, that woeful entrance before named. I answer, that Mr Bern. entered into this reason with untruth, and continued in it with begging the question, as before is shown. So that this his objection is very woeful a • d the man deser • eth rather to be pitied then answered in his i • le 〈◊〉 made without proof.

THe second is a hie degree of unthankfulness both to God that begat us • lie, • is word, and to our mother the church of Engl. that bar • us. I answer, 〈◊〉 thank God for that knowledge of him wh • ch we atteyned unto in the Church of England, and are thankful also (as is meet) to all the instruments which God hath used to bring us unto knowledge: but now when God hath shown us a further truth, (as what ch • l • e of his, seeth not more daily,) we should show great vnthankf • lnes if we would not walk in it, much more if we should blaspheme and persecute it, as Mr. Bern. and many of his fellow Priests do, struggling against the light that shineth upon them; A papist may have occasion of thankfulness unto G • d a • d men, for the knowledge of God and Christ which he hath get in th • Ro • ish church, far abo • e that which he could have had among Pagans : yet if upon sight of the errors in Popery, he forsake that false church and join to some other true, no man can without ungodliness, condemn him of unthankfulness. The Papists heretofore have used such reasons as these aga • nst the Protestants; now they, for want of better apply them a •• inst us.

T • e third sin imputed to us is, that we are full of spiritual vnchariblenes First toward th • m that will not go our way, nor be inclinable to us whom (he saith) we deeply censure and deadly condemn.

First, this also is an old popish cavil, used often against the Protesta • ts. One telleth them, they deserve the punishments of Parricides, for scoffing, taunting, contemning and reviling their forefathers.

2. Our uncharitableness, (if such it be) is this, that we pray for and wish unto all, as to our own souls, even life and peace we seek to cover a multitude of sins which then is done, when sinners are converted from going astray. And for this cause we speak that which we believe and know, though the world therefore hate us.

3 C • nsu •• or condemn those that go not our way we do not, we know every man shall stand or fall to his own master. It is the sin only which we condemn, the sinner we seek to save, leaving him to the Lord who shall judge both him and us at the last day.

4. But how charitable the ministers of England are unto us let thei • continual reproaches and vituperies in pulpit and in print show: and how they censure and condemn us and all that will not go their way ; let Mr. Bernard's own book speak where by the sentence of his godly ministers, everyone is damned, as cutting himself off from Christ, whosoever wittingly and continually separateth from the church of England, where yet so innumerable abominations and idolatries do abound.

2. Secondly our uncharitableness (as he saith) is a most ungodly desire as ever was heard of, to have the w • rd utterly extinguished among them, Egyptian darkness to come over them, rather then that it should be preachedly such as do not favor our course &c.

Our desire is, that the Egyptian darkness which now covereth the land by means of the false Prophets that are therein, were done away; and that the true light of the Gos • ell were risen unto them. We are sory to see the prophets (which have night for a vision and darkness for a divination, as was threatened of God,) • o to deceive the people, by preaching lies in the name of the Lord, when he never sent them Christ hath no need of such falsers to help up h • s k • ngdome he hath ways and means enough, by his own ordinance & min • stery to build up his • hurch, though Antichrists clergy be sent back to the bottomless pit from whence they came. We know men gather not grapes of thorns nor figs of thistles. Lamentable experience these many years, showeth what hurt and misery cometh by this false hierarchy and priesthood, which upholds idolatry, profaneness, and human traditions; pleads for sin, and against the truth; to the destruction of men's souls. We wish people therefore to beware of false prophets, though they come in sheep's clothing; and to seek the Lord by his own ministry, not by Ant christs: for the thief cometh not but to steal, to kill and to d • stroy. Let them see by the lamps of God in his own Sanctuary and Candlestick, and walk in the light of Jerusalem his church, which hath the glory of God arisen upon it leaving Vr of the Chaldees, and walking no long • r in the light of the fire and sparks that men have kindled to themselves least they lie down in sorrow.

3. The last point of our vncharital lenes, wh • ch M. Bern. saith is the highest degree of all, is that we are sorry and en • ious that the good things of God do prosper with them. &c.

That the good things of God do prosper with them, and the truth prevail manger all opposition; we have cause to rejoice for, and do rejoice, Yea and we doubt not, but the envious writings and dealings of Mr. Bern and his fellows, against the gospel, God will turn to the furtherance of the same; and the generation of the righteous shall be blessed which the wicked shall see and fret and gnash their teeth and pine away; when their desire shall perish. But what are the good things Mr. Bern. meaneth? Not the truth of God indeed, for that he blasphemeth and writeth against as Schism and Brownism. Nor the reformists cause, called Puritanism ; for that prospereth not, as all men see, but decreaseth daily. The Prelates are the men that prevail, for a wh • le; their canons are confirmed, their ceremonies flourish, and their horns are exalted. Whether M, Bern, himself (who wrote not l • ng since a book against them, which also he was willing a gentleman should have printed in his own name, that M, Bern. might have slept in a wh • le 〈◊〉 whither himself I say, and his fellow Reformists who are disa • oynt • d of their hope, be not sorry for this prosperity, let themselves say. As for vt we have learned not to fret or en • y when we see the wicked flourish; for they shall so • n be cut down as grass, and wither as the green herb. Sory we are indeed for their lamentable estate and desire that they may find mercy, at the hands of the Lord.

Our fo • rth kind of sin, he saith is, our abusing of the werd, misaleging and 〈◊〉 it, &c. This was the third of his probabilities before answered, and is here for a show mustered again among our sins; but nakedly and without all proof: I leave it therefo • e to the reproof of God; and to the godly judgments of all that shall read our writings and allegations of the scriptures.

The 5. sin is our willful persisting in our schism. This is again to beg the question, first let it appear to be schism that we are in, let the reasons a • d grounds of our separation be orderly dealt in, and soundly convinced by God's word: then if we yield not, let us be holden willful. Otherweise, to persist in well doing is good And as easily do the Papists cal Protestants schismatics, as they us. Whether M Bernard with all the helps that he hath had from other men, hath convinced us of schism, let the godly judge. If reproaching of us, and idle excursions into by matters, be a conviction; doubtle •• e he hath done it better then any before him.

The 6. syn, is our railing and s •• ffing, and (as he saith) Henry Barrowes blasphemies, who hath • gr • giously abused all their holiest exercises of religion, &c. I answer, if such sin be in any of us, it is even by our selves condemned; and • f by human infirmity any have been overtaken with unseasoned speeches, we desire the Christian reader to bear with and pardon it in us, as himself would have pardon of God The like hath Mr. Barr •• earnestly entreated in his Preface to his Discouery, as the reader may see; so far was he from delighting in such ways.

Secondly I answer (howsoever I will not justify all the words of another man, nor yet mine own, for in many things we sin all;) that many of the th • ngs which this man counteth railings, scoffs and blasphemies, are no other speeches them the hol • Ghost hath used before us in the scriptures, and appl • ed to like persons; and seemed as harsh to men of those times, as these do to men now.

Thirdly it is l • kely that some be rather the printers fault (unless Mr. Bernard hath forged them himself), then Mr Barrowes.

Fourthly the Reformists themselves, amongst whom Mr Bern. sometimes seemed one, have uttered as hard speeches against the Prelate • & other corruptions of their own church; though now like time seruers they gloze with their reverend Fathers; as this man maketh the first of Mr Barrowes railings scoffs and blasphemies to be his calling the Bishops Antichristian. But how many volum • s have themselves heretofore written of this argument? And who amongst us hath ever dealt as did Mar • in Marprelate among themselves?

Finally Mr. Barrow did sharply in 〈…〉 against the reforming preachers, as being the greatest deceivers of the people, under show of holiness. This maketh them a • ayn so e • er agai • st him; but whither he spake not right of them, may in part be seen already, & time will show more; they can no longer halt as hitherto they have; but either they must rec • ncile them to th • ir Fath • rs, or quite forsake them: and a ble • sed work of God it is, that the most dangerous seducers should thus first be discou ••• d.

THe third and last sort of reasons which M. Bern. useth against us, is, Our errors, and (as he saith) the matter of our s • hisme.

The errors which he reckoneth up, and undertaketh to confute ar • ten. The first of them is that we hold the constitution of their church to be a false constitution. To this he saith,

1. That we cannot prove this simply by any plain doc • rine of scripture &c. 2. That it is against the evidence of the scriptures, which maketh the word, (Mat. 28.19. Mar 16 15. 2 Cor. 5.19. &. 11 2. Job, 23.23.24. Act. 2.14.37.38. & 16.32.33.) the external proof • sion Act. 8.12.37.38.) and Sacraments (Mat. 28, 19. 1 Cor. 10.16.) the visible and true constitution of a company so gathered and kn • t together; and so was theirs constituted: as that book of (Mr. Ber.) showeth; and as in another ere long shall be plainly manifested &c.

First Mr Ber. setteth down barely this as our position and doctrine, not name • ng place or bo • k where it is written, nor the proofs that we make of it, but perem • torily saith we cannot prove it. Whereas it hath in many books by many plain doctrines of scripture been evidently proved, so as Mr Bern. and all his fellow priests could never yet, make a plain and direct answer And if when book is written after book, no refutation be made, but a bare deneyall, as here M. Bern. saith we cannot prove it, I say the ministers of Engl. may so turn away anything; but with what credit or conscience, the wise will judge.

Secondly, for M. Bernard's reason, it self wanteth a good constitution, being to confu • edly set down, as a man knows not what he makes the constitution of a church; or how he would conclude that their church is constituted aright. He pretends the word to be the Constitution of a church; whereas the scriptures that he quoteth, and reason it self might teach him, that the word is the instrument or means of Constituting, & conseruing the church constituted; so also be the sacraments. But as the constitution of a common wealth or of a city is a gathering and uniting of people together into a civil polity: so the Constitution of the common wealth of Israel, (as the church is called) and of the city of God the new Jerusalem, is a gathering and uniting of people into a diuiue polity: the form of which polity is Order, as the heathens acknowledged, calling polity, an order of a city : which Order is requisite in all actions and administrations of the church as the Apostle * showeth, and specially specially in the constitution thereof: so that next unto faith in God, it • s to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies Wherefore Pa • l rejoiced for these two things in the Church at Col • ss • , even their order, & their steadfast faith in Christ. Now whereas to the constit • tiō of a ch • rch there belong • a people, as the matt • r whereof, and 2 a calling, gathering and uniting together, as the form whereof the church consisteth. in both these the Constitution of the Church of Engl. hath (in sundry treatises) been • roued false. For with them all sorts of profane worldly and wicked • ersons, are received as the matter whereof the church is built, contrary to the • lain and manifest doctrine of the scriptures. Leu. 20.24 1 Kin 8 53. Act. 2.40, and 19.8 • John. 17.16. 2 Cor. 6.14, • 7, 18. The form and order of their v • iting is als • strange; for these profane people, even all persons in a fam • lie, an • all families in a parish, are united into one parish church, as it is called; not voluntarily, • as ought to be in the true ch • rch, but by constraint, not by any due proof • sion of repentance from • ead work • and faith in God; but by the priests readin • a Confession absolution, and such like popish st • ff as is to be seen in their service book, not under the guidance of Chr • sts officers, but of a Parson, Vicar, Curate or other like creature of the Bishops, who in many places can but read English unto them. And this with the other Par • shes of the Dioce •• e so gathered also, are united into one See or D • oces ••• church under a Lord Bishop and his Co • rtiers, and all the Dioces into two Pro • inciall churches, the Provincial, into one national church, called the Church of England, over all which there is a most reverend Father and spiritual Lord, Archbushop, Primate, and Metropolitan : under whom all Bishops and Priests of the land are subject; and all people and parishes in the land bound to obey the dead canons and decrees, which he the Ach Lord with his brethren of the governing clergy, agree of in their repre • atiue church in the Conuocation house, if once the Civil Magistrate give life unto them. This form and order of a church is not to be found in Chr • sts Testament; but received it is from the church of Rome by heritage or succession; as the Papists boast of (to the dishonor of Protestants) when they say; A religion &c. that distinguished the multitude into, p • rishes • roportiōed • he tithes, ann • xed th • Glebeland, fon̄ded the Bishoprics, • mitted the Dioceses &c, So, as the mother is the daughter is, false in her c • stitutiō; though in the doctrine which she profeseth she is far better & purer thē that whoremother of Rome. The discussing of thes things. as Mr Bern. refereth to other places & books, so also do I ; seeing in thi • place • e hath brought nothing of weight to prove his cōstitutiō. For the script • re that he alegeth, & the 3. things that he colecteth from thē; do make against his pur • ose. The word is not by Christ's m • nistery ri • htly; reached & applied to the people, but insufferably abused to the maintenance or the confusion and idolatries that are among them: the sacraments are highly profa • ed and prostituted to the most ungodly and thir seed, and popishly administered, and the external profession which the people, make is by constraint, and therefore naught worth: besides it is corrupt and idolatrous, being a mixed profession, partly of the truth of God, & partly of their own inventions, as appeareth by their Communion book Canons, and the like.

Our second error should be, that we hold their Constitution a real idol, and so them idolaters. To confute this, Mr Ber. saith that he h • th perused in any scriptures, and can see none that take an idol or idolaters in any such s • nse ; aga • n, that Marlorat mentioneth 47. idols, and not one of them in • he s • nse.

Whether this article be of Mr Bernard's own forgin • , or where he hath had it, I cannot tell; his reader must take all of his creed • , for he lets not down his author. As for his confutation hereof, it is very slender, that beca • se he seeth it not, or Ma • lorat nameth it not, therefore it is no idol. For it is no sure position that Mr Bernard seeth all that • he scriptures; teach; and both he and Marlorat may as soon number the hairs of their heads, a • all the idols that are in the world. Well therefore yet may • t be a real idol, for o • ght that this man hath said to save it. And if it be a false constit • tion (as before is pro • ed) set up instead of a true, what is it better then a very idol. In the end he t • rneth and renteth us for making o • r own constitution (as he saith) an idol or goddess ; and feigneth that we may say, Great is the Goddess Constitution; great is Diana of the B ••• nists B • t seeing this is but a re • roch of a scorner, and the reproach reacheth unto Christ himself who hath appointed the frame order and constitution of h • s own ch • rch, which we have labored for I leave him for this calumniation, unto his rebuke, who will teach him one day no more to blaspheme.

And whether (may we think) tendeth the invective of this vain man, who thus skoffeth at the Constitution of Christ's church, but to bring in a mere ataxie or conf • sion, worse then was at Babels tower-building: for take away the orderly framing and constituting of a church, and there will be but a Tohu, (as the scripture speaketh,) a rude indigest heap or confute Chaos, more beseeming the wild beasts of the wood, then any human, much les • e divine pol • ty.

That such as are not of a particular constituted church, (to weet such a one as ours is,) are no subjects of Christ's kingdom.

Neither is this position set down in our words; (to my knowledge;) neither doth Mr B • rnard take away, but confirm rather the thing that we hold; for he granteth that they offend God, which may and do not ordinarily, (having 〈◊〉 canes offered) live in a church rightly constituted ; and we grant that many of Christ's subjects, for want of means, do not live in a true constituted church, If therefore he were not a caviller, he would not have reckoned this among our errors.

That all nor in our way, are without: and we apply against them (in Engl.) 1 Cor. 5, 12, Eph. 2, 12.

The first part of this position, you must impu • e to Mr Bernard's charity, who w • ll needs frame our assertions for us, because he thinks we cannot speak for our selves; we might leave it unto him to frame an answer also. But if he would let us tell, what we hold, it is, that all not in the way • f Ch • ist, are without : and if this be an error, let him make the most of it.

The applying of those scriptures against them, he must be content to bear, til he or his brethren can prove thenselves a true church; for though there b • great differences of people's professing religion, some with more truth, • ome with less; yet all not w • thin Christ's church, are without, as th • A • ostle speaketh. Mr Bernard's exception, that those places are meant of s • ch as never professed Christ at all ; is childish: why doth he not except a • a • n • t the holy Ghost himself, who ap • lieth against the false Christ • ans of the R • mish Church, words and s • eaches meant first of heathen Babylon, that proof •• ed not God or Christ at all.

His boasting of the word, sacraments, effects and deliverances ; are before in this traatise taken away. And Mr Bernard's proofs, are but a begging of the question, which he blameth in other • , as before is obs • rued.

That only Sayncts, that is, a people forsaking all known sin, of which they m • y be convinced, doing all the known will of God, increasing and abiding ever thr •• , are the only matter of a visi • le church.

Th • s Position I de • ey, and disclaym also the errors which he gathereth from • t: and therefore will spend no time in answering it; but refer Mr Ben to them that have so spoken or written, if any be. This we hold ( 〈◊〉 let us se what Mr Bernard can say against it,) that Saints by calling are the only mater of a true visible church. Yet withal we hold, that • any be call • , but few chosen.

That • he power of Christ, that is, authority to preach, to administer the sacram ••• s, and to exercise the censures of the Church, belongeth to the whole Ch • rch, yea to everyone of them. And not the principal members thereof.

This opinion, he calleth the A, b, c, of Brownism : but he may put it if he please in the Criss-cross rew of Bernardisme ; he himself being the first that I ever heard to utter such a position. This point he much urgeth and • relleth us with; he mentoned it in his For • speech to the Reader, thus, Th • Pa • ist saith, Christ's ruling power is in the Pope; nay, saith the Protestant. i • is in the ecclestasticall governors, Bishops, may saith the Puritan, it is in the Presbyterte; nay, saith the Brownist, it is in the body of the Congregation, the multitude, called the Church. And in this beginneth Brown • sme. &c.

Here first I require of Mr Bern. that he produce his authors, and show the book, or writing, where we have avouched such things. He tells his reader of all the errors that he ch • rgeth us with, that we hold & cannot deny them, being already avouched under our hands: and that he will not wrong us in setting them down, &c. Yet durst he not (as every honest writer writer in su • h controversies use to do; an • if he do not in his next, the reader may est • em of his truth and honesty as it is.

Next, for the point it self, I answer, Christ's ruling power, which the Papists say is in the Pope ; we say not (as this man calumniateth us) that it is in the body of the Congregation, the multitude, but in Christ himself; and that the Pope is Antichrist, not for taking into his hands the power of the mul • itude, but of Chr • st, to rule and govern the church as Head of the same.

Again, Christ's ruling power, which the Protestants say is in the Bishops the Prelates, we do not say it is in the multitude; but in Christ himself: for he only is Lord of the Church, he only is Archbishop or Chief pastor ; he only walketh among the seven gol • en Candlesticks, as Ouerseer of the seven ch • rches; ruling them by his laws can • ns and decrees. Whereas the Bishops of England are s • irituall Lord's, and one is Arch • ishop and Primate over all: they rule many ch • rches and min • sters, mak • new canons and decrees in their Conuocati • n house; prescr • be forms and words of prayer, and of preaching, by their liturgy and homilies, and other like spiritual jurisdiction, apperteyn • ng to Chr • st alone, thus are they very Antichr • sts; and to • there with their exorbitant usurped. power, ought utterly to be abolished out of all Chri • t • an churches.

Neither, that ruling power of Christ, which the P • ritans (whereby I supp • se, Mr Bern. meaneth the Christian reform • churches in other countries,) say is in the Presbytery ; do we say, is in the multitude for we acknowledge Christ to have ordained a Presbit • ry ; or Eldership, and that in every church, for to teach and rule them by his own word and laws, unto whom all the multitude, the members. the Sain • ts ought to obey and submit themsel • es, as the scriptures teach And for the particular branches of this 6. Error that Mr Bernard chargeth us with, That the power of Christ, that is, authority to pr • ach, belongeth to the whole church, ye • to everyone of them, &c. we deny it, a • he sets it do • n, and for the help of t • e reader whom he abuseth, will distinctly set down our opinion.

The word of God, is given to all and every member of the Church to read, and exercise privately: but publicly in the Church there is a double use, 1 in prophesy, and 2 in office, as the Apostle distinguisheth. The office of teaching is laid upon some few chosen & ordained thereunto Into this office may no man intrude, or usurp it, without a lawful calling. This we have long since published, as a pa • t of our faith Confess, Art. 19.20.21. Teaching in way of prophesy, (which the Apostle treateth of 1 Cor, 14) is absolutely us lawful for all women in th • church, but men, so many as have the gift and ability from God, may all pro • hesie one by one, of which point see our Con •• ss Art 34. And this is that we hold concerning preaching, which whether it be an error and Mr Bern. hath so proved it, let the indifferent reader judge.

For the second point, authority to administer the sacraments, that it sho • ld belong to everyone of th • church; we utterly deney; and marvel at Mr Bernard's unconscionable dealing with us, for in o • r Confession he co • ld not but see, (unless he winked,) this plainly expressed, no sacraments to be administered until the Pastors or Teachers be chosen and ordained int • • heir office.

The third and last, that everyone hath authority to execute the censures of the church we also deny; but hold, that every member hath authority to reb • ke h • s brother for sin, and if he repent to forgive him, if not, to take w • tne •• es; if yet he repent not, to tell it to the church, which church hath Christ's power to judge all within the same, and cast out from among them all wicked men: Now that everyone hath not this power, nor yet any member or members apart, we have plainly signified in our Con •• ssi • n, Art. 24. If this be an error in Mr Bernard's account, let him by the scriptures confute it, not only in us but in a principal minister of his own ch • rch D, F • lk, who hath written that the keys of the kingdom of h • auen whatsoever they are; be committed to the whole church, and not to one p •• sō only, as C •• rian, Augustine, Chrysostom, Jerome, and all the ancient Doctors agrea • lie o • lie to the scriptures do confess.

So then for popular government, (which Mr Bern. would traduce us by,) we hold it not, we approve it not, for if the multitude govern, then who shall be governed? Christian liberty (which all have) is one thing, the reins of government (which some have) is another thing. Now how far t • e people's right and liberty and benefit thereby eytendeth, would require a larged scourse to show, which is not my purpose here. It is ye no • gh to mainfest the iniquity of this adversary who would father such err • rs on us, dealing like his predecessors the Papists, who in this wise re • roched the Protestants, as laboring to bring all things under the rule of the rash unconstant people and unlearned multitude ; and to make the church democratical and popular, because everyone of the people by his private spirit, is supreme judge and head in matters of religion.

Our different judgment and practice from the church of Engl. where all • y men as they call them, are forbidden all speaking or expounding of the word in the public assemblies, and where a Bishop, Chancellor, or Commissary, hath power to excommunicate by a Latin writ &c. Our difference also and dislike of the Presbyteries practice, whereby people are excluded, and deprived of a great part of their Christian liberty and benefit thereby, is in other books largely treated of, with scriptures & reasons many, which M, Bern. neither orderly handleth, nor soundly confuteth, as the wise reader may see; but ignorantly and confusedly shuffleth them over; running into by matters, and unjust calumniations. I will end therefore with the words of one of his fellow ministers, who touching this point of Church government writeth much more soundly then by Mr. Bern. in his blindness, hath done, Mr Jacob I mean, which saith, It is childish, and without all wit, to cry out against us • us our adue • saries do▪ Popularity, Anarchy &c. for our so▪ well grounded and so approved an assertion.

That the sin of one man publ • ckly and obstinately stood in, b • ing not reformed nor the offender cast out, • oth s • p • llute the whole congregation, that none may commu •• cate with h • same in any of the holy • hings of God, (though it be a church r • ghtly con •• ituted, till the party be excommun • cated.

I deney again this to be either our judgment or practice Mr. Bern. saith the form • r position is the ground of this; and so it seemeth, he c • lumniating us in the for • er, thou • ht he might do likewise in this. We profess and have long since publ • shed, that none is to separate for f •• lts & corru • tiōs, which may & so long as the Church consist • th of m • rtall men will fall out and aris • among them; but by due order to s •• k r • dress th • reof

Now that every Chr • stian not only may b • tought to rebuke his neighbor for sin, we ha • e plain laws both • n the Old Testament and the new Levite. 19.17. Luk. 17.3. That sinners not repenting, are after the second admonition to be signified unto the church, is also Christ's ordinance, Mat. 18, 15.17.

But what • f • he church will not cast him out? I answer; Synns are either con • rouertible or manifest. If controuertible and d • ubtf • ll; men ought to bear one with another's different judgment; if they do not, but, any for this make a breach or separation, they syn.

But if the sin be manifest, as for example a man is convict of adultery, blasphemy, theft or the like: and the church will not rebuke him nor cast him out, but suffer him obstinate and impenitent in his wickedness; and plead for him aga • nst such us call upon them for iudgem • nt: then are all such abettors of the wicked, sinners themselves; and that in a high degree, as th' Apostle noteth Rom. 1 31 the whole lump is leuened, 1 Cor. 5, 1, 6. &c. and now not that one man's sin, but the sin of them all, is that which polluteth them: for they favor and justify a wicked man more then God; therefore woe is unto them, and Solomon saith, He that saith to the wicked, thou art righteous him shall the people curse, and the multitude shall abhor him. Prov, 24 24

If M, Bern think the sin is the less, because a church maynteyns it; he is much deceived; evil, the more common it is▪ the worse • t is; because God is more dishonored, and men's souls more endangered.

If he think men should regard and reverence the church in this case▪ the law teacheth every man not to follow the many (or, the mighty) to do evil, nor agree in a controversy to decline after many, and overthrow (the right.) The • round of all this is plain in God's law, if any one of the people sinned against any of the commandments of the Lord, and one shown him his sin which he had committed, he was to bring his sacrifice, a testification of his repentance. If a ruler sinned, or the high priest himself, they were to do likewise. If the whole Congregation sinned, the like law was for them: God respected no persons; but if they that sinned were greater or moe in number, they were so far from being savored, as they had the greater sacrifice enjoined them, a private man offered a she-goat, a ruler a he-goat, the high Priest, and the Congregation, a young b • llock. These laws were given to all sorts of persons, for all manner sins‘ and the law was again repeated and stablished from that day forward throughout their generations, Num. 15.22.23. &c. But if any man despised this law, and sinned with a high hand, the same blasphemed the Lord, and was to be cut off from among his peo • le. Num. 15.30.31 Now further, that the whole congregation taking Part with wicked men in syn, after due admonition, are all defiled and subject to like judgment, we have a plain example in the whole Tribe of Benjamin, where in Gibe • h one of their towns filthiness was committed, the Tribe was called upon to deliver th • se wicked men to death, that evil might be put away from Israel, •• t when they would not deliver them, all the other tribes warred against that tr • be, and almost rooted out every man of the same. Likeweise the tr • bes of Israel in another case, said to some of their brethren, seeing ye rebel today against the Lord; even tomorrow he will be wroth with all the Congregation of Israel. Did not Achan sin, &c. and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel and this man alone perished not in his wickedness. What Mr Bern. seeth or how he readeth the scriptures I cannot tell; but if he knew the contagion of sin or guilt of the same, he would never have writien as he hath done Now where he pleadeth that men should not for the offender, refrain the holy things of God, abh • rr the sacrifices &c. We grant it. The holy things are always to be reverenced, God's house and sacrifices frequented, when we may without sin But we deny such an assembly to be God's church, as with a high hand sinneth, and blasphemeth the Lord. The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination. And it cannot be said that any holy thing is lawfully administered in such a society where all agree together to maintain open iniquity, and do despise the word of the Lord, calling them to repentance If they do not thus, we hold it not lawful to separate from them, nor in any wise at any time, till all holy and orderly means be used for their reclayming.

That every of their assemblies are false churches.

This we hold indeed, being understood of the ordinary cathedral & parish assemblies of England, which all are by one line. For defense of these churches Mr Bern. refers the reader to another treatise after, and so do I to the answer of the same, following. Yet least he should seem • o say nothing, Mr Ber excepteth 1 That they have no false head, for, they hold Jesus Christ. I answer, so might Jeroboam have pleaded for himself & his people, that they had no false head, but the true God which brought them out of the Land of Egypt. Yet were they a false church The Papists Papists and Anabaptists at this day, hold and profess Jesus Christ: yet such errors are among them, as Christ in deed is deneyed: the parishes of England profess him also, but such is their estate otherwise, that they have him not truly for a head, prophet, priest, or king unto them; as before is proved. But it is enough for Mr Bernard to affirm without proof: and correction with him is a needfuller argument in this case t • ē i • struction For when the Priests li • s preserve not knowledge how should men be answered but by the jail or gallows?

2. The matter (saith he) is not false: and to show this he noteth a difference between No matter, true matter, and false matter. No matter are th • y which make no profession of Christ at all; as Jews, Turks, and Pagans, True (visible) matter are all such as openly profess this main truth, that Jesus the son of Mary is the son of God▪ Christ the Lord, by whom only & alone they shall be saved. And false matter is contrary to this true matter.

I answer; this false matter is very rawly set down, for being contrary to the former true, it may imply Jews, and Turks, whom he made no matter : and then it confoundeth his own distinction. But if he mean that they which profess not Christ rightly and truly, as he setteth down, are a false matter, then, say I; • t will evince the matter of their Churches to be false, seeing there is not aright and true profession of Chr • st, made by their parishes▪ But Mr Ber. leaving out this word rightly & truly, tells us they all profess this faith, as is apparent 1 by the doctrine of their church (vidz. that in the Harmony of Confessions,) 2 by the same publicly preached 3 by the same maintained by their laws, writings and blood of holy martyrs. I answer, if all this were granted▪ yet will it not prove Mr Bernard's purpose, for some may write and preach the truth, the Magistrate may establish it by law, and some may seal it with their blood; and yet not all the nation be a true matter for Christ's church, except they also make l • ke profession Which that the parishes of England do not, the profaneness of the multitudes show. But least I be thought to speak of envy, let us hear the testimony of their own ministers and such as were no favorers of us at all▪ as their malicious writings of us showeth Mr Nichols esteemed a forward preacher among them▪ saith, We find by great experience, (and I have now five and twenty years observed it,) that in those places where there is not preaching and private conferring of the Minister and the people; the most part have as little knowledge of God and of Christ, as Turks and Pagans. To confirm this, he gives us an example in his own flock For I have been in a parish saith he) of four hundred communicants, and maruelling that my preaching was so little regarded, I took upon me to confer with every man and woman, before they received the communion. & I asked them of Christ, what he was in his person; what his office; how firm came into the world; what punishment for sin; what becomes of our bodies being rotten in the grave and lastly whither it were possible for a man to live so uprightly, that by well doing he might win heaven. In all the former questions, I scarce found ten in the hundred to have any knowledge, but in the last question, scarce one, but did affirm, that man might be saved▪ by his own well doing, and that he trus • ed he did so live, that by God's grace he should obt • yn everlasting life by ser • ing of God and god prayers &c. Now then, this being so, tell me I pr • y y • u (saith Mr Ni • hols▪ first for Ath • isme, whether these be any bettor then A • h • is • s, whi • h know not Christ ? And tell me I pray you Mr Bernard whether th ••• be a • rue matter, such as Christ's church consisteth of? But you would • a •• us believe the Bishops and Priests of Engl. are wondrous men; for i • • hey write books, or preach sermons to the people, their whole Dioceses and Parishes must needs be esteemed converts and profelytes. Such effect & grace was never heard of before, since the world began. More absurd it is to say, that the good laws of the Magistrate, do make a profane idolatrous multitude, true professors: but most of all, that because some few were martyrs, therefore they that killed the martyrs, profess Christ truly. If these be not pregnant reasons, then M. Bernard's book is little worth. 3. But he proceedeth and saith, The visible form is not false; which is the uniting of us unto God, and one to another uisibly. This he would prove by 3, reasons 1 because the word is preached and offered to the people ; 2 Because of the people's open profession of their faith, unto the doctrine, God working in them a will to receive it. 3 because the Lord's supper is in use among them. Sundry scriptures are alleged to show that thus the primitive churches were planted and constituted; all which we grant; but when he comes to apply these to themselves; he barely assumes, that thus is their case; neither answering any reason of ours to the contrary, nor showing any reason of his own, to confirm that which he saith. And what cause in the world, what church is so bad; but may thus be pleaded for? He knows well, that we except, (and the visible estate of that church, their own monuments, records, complaints, &c. do bear witness with us,) that they were planted in this religion and profession by force of the Magistrates law; that multitudes are profane; that many thousands want the preaching of the word; that they ar all compelled to come to church, be baptized, receive the communion, and the like; and what profession the poor ignorant people make, is before manifested. If he would hear more of their profession, and subjection to the word and ministry, Mr. Nichols shows it thus; How little have they esteemed the godly and learned ministers! How content they be with simple and ignorant men! How hardly are they drawn to pay duties which law hath appointed! How many quarrels they pick against painful ministers! And how little reverence they give to any that are faithful! How they follow their covetousness and pleasures! How they fil all sorts of courts with brawls, foolish and willful strifes, and suits, and demurs in law with murders, whoredoms▪ drunkenness, and all disorder. Loe this is the commendations of the professant people of the Church of Engl, whom Mr Bernard pleadeth for.

As for their constitution and uniting together into parishes▪ dioceses, pro • inces, and at last in to one national church with an Archbishop & his high court over all it is before shown to be a R • mis • •• t • o • , and antichristian, n • t justifiable by the law or testament of Christ.

4. Lastly, the visi • le properties are (he saith) not false • ut true, namely th • se, 1 Con • inuance in heari • g of the d • ct • ine of Christ received, and using of th • sacraments and prayer. 2 The hol • ing out of this truth an • 〈◊〉 sacra • ents as 〈◊〉 displ •• ed, against the ene • y▪ 3 A care for the welfare of all, and everyone for 〈◊〉 and ech for o • her.

But all this build • ng is on a s • ndy ground: for their esta • e (as before is m • nif • stead▪ be • ng evil: the long • r they continue in it, the worse it is f • r them Cont • nuance to read • he service book, and homilies, to • rostitute t • e Sacra • ents to the profane, to administer them after a • opish m • nn • r, by a false m • n • ster • ; these are the banners and ensigns of Antichrist▪ dis • laid • n all his a •• emblies; that poor souls have cause to complain a • in the Psalm, they have s • t up th • i • banners for signs. As for the care of the well • are of all, &c. which Mr. B • rn. boasteth of: let Mr. Nichols foresaid complaint of the people on the one hand▪ and the Bishops, & Priests open neglect & contempt of the people on the other hand, show what care they have one of another. For how many souls are miserably famished by dum, negligent, and non resident priests evil beasts and slow bellies. How many preachers are put out for not subscrib • ng and using the ceremonies, &c. These, that I g • ue no other instances, show what care there is of men's sowless am ••• them; which he that commendeth, shows himself careless what he speaks or writes.

Our 9. error is, that we say, Al th •• r minist • rs are false ministers. Against this Mr Bernard allegeth for the truth of their ministry, that they are sent of Christ according to his ordinance in his church, as is manifested by th • , th • t th • y are quall • fi • d with good gifts, they are called by the church, & such also as d • e diligently, and faithfully preach, and so preach Christ as many th • reby doeth ar and bel • eve, even confirming their calling by the blessed success and eff • ct of th • i • lab • urs. Rom. 10.14.15. 1 Cor. 9.2.

First, if Mr Bernard would indeed have refuted our error, if such it be he should • have answered the reasons which in many writings we have br • ught a •• inst the • r min • stery B • t he found that, all too heavy.

The • for the reasons that •• ms • lfe alleg • th, they are naked and without all co • firm • ti • n; such as Pa • ist • , Anabaptists or any other Antichristians might • llege for the • sel • es F • r, a Papist will • oast as well as he, that their Priests are qu • lifi •• wi • h go • d gifts, called, by the church, do diligently an • faithfully pre • ch, so as 〈…〉 h •• r an • believe. B • t I will answer ech of • is part • c • l • r • Their q • alificatiō is wi • h Good g • fts, is no proffe of a lawful minist • ry; seeing • many private men ha • e as good gifts as they; • usurpers and intr • der • may all • o have as excellent gifts, as lawful officers: • Jesuits, S • mm • ries and there instuments of Satan, are known to be as learned and well furnished with gifts, as Mr Bern. and his brethren. 4 Moreover I deny that the principal ministers of England are qualified or able to execute their office; the Archbishops, Bishops Arch dea • ons, &c. that have whole Dioceses and Provinces under their charge cannot possibly perform the duty▪ of true ministers unto them. 5 And fi •• lly a number of ignorant Sir John's can read their Leiturgie unto their paris • es; and have no other good ministerial quality.

The second thing, their calling by the church ; which afterward he expl • yneth th • s; bei • g examined, found fi • , and so are elect and ordained ; this 〈…〉 upon the sands; for the church of England not being a true ch • rch of G • d, as is before manifested, hath no power from God to call and • rdeyn mi • isters▪ But besi • es this, I would fain learn of Mr Bern. what Ch •• ch it is that examined, elected, and ordained his Lord's grace of Canterb •• y, for Ar • hb • shop • then whether the same or some other ch • rch examined elected and ordained the Diocesan Bishops, the Deans the Archdeacons, and the rest of that Lordly priesthood, then what church ordained the parish Priests, and Deacons. These things if he dare undertake to deal in, and bring to the trial: will be found more agreeable to the Canons of the Pope, then to the testament of Christ.

Their office it self, Mr Bern. balketh quite, and tells us not what functions this pompous clergy have to execute, yet is it most needful to be known, for how else shall men discern their administration? To begin • therefore with his Arch Lord of Cant. the Angel of the church of Engl. what office • ath • e to execute, of a Pastor ; or of a Pope ? If he be Pastor of this ••• rch, what be the inferior Bishops ; petty Pastors, or Pety popes? what offices 〈◊〉 the Suffragans, Chancel • rs, deanes, Archdeacons Commiss ••• s, • ffi • ials, D • ctors Proctors, and the residew of that army? what offices have the Preb • ndaries, Canons, P • ti • anons, Chanters, Subchanters, and other like b • rds of the cloister? what offices have the Bishops bay lifts the Priests, the half priests or Deacons, the Parsons, and Vicars, the Churchwardens, Clerks, & Sextius? Mr Bern. affirmeth that the Lord only ordeyneth offi •• s in his church 1 Cor. 12. and that the church it self cannot do this, but Jesus Christ both Lord and King. Now seeing he hath ouerskipped in this book, all the stately offices that are in his church: let him in his next show (if he can) the offices that Christ in his testament hath appointed this troop of horsemen and chariots unto.

Now for their administration, he telleth us, they preach the true doctrine or Christ, administer the sacraments, perform their office faithfully, and live c • ns • i • nably, and Christ doth assist such graciously in converting souls, and • h • pe • ple do approve of them.

Fayr words, and such as it seemeth Mr Bern. useth to feeed his flock with: but if one deny that thus it is, he must tarry for proof, till another treatise come forth; it was enough in this, to affirm it so to be; and for his Lord's grace to confirm it. Well, to let pass the multitude of compl • ints and testimonies to the contrary in their own books, let him show how it is possible for the Archbishop of the church of Engl. or the inferior Bishops, to preach and perform their office faithfully, unto so many hundreds of parishes, & thousands of people, as are under their charge. Let the infinite number of souls that are famished under them speak, how often their Chief-shepherd of Cant have fed them with the word and sacraments, (unless perhaps he hath blessed some of their youthes with the Sacrament of Confirmation ;) how many of their souls he hath converted, yea let them say whether ever he saw their face • ? As for the Bishops Deputies the paris • h priests, many of them are dumb by nature, and cannot preach; many are made dumb by their spiritual Lord's power, and silenced for disobeyed • ence; so preaching wexeth geazon, and people perish for want of Instruction. In the mean time, this painful Clergy feedeth the Lay weekly, with their mattings, Evensong, and Homilies; and sometimes in a year with sermon, and reading the Bishops canons. They discipline their notorious sinners, with reading curses and Comminations out of the pulpit, till the Lent penance (which is much to be wished) be restored again: they solemnize the holy days of Angels and of Saints; they give ech man the sacrament at Easter devoutly upon his knees, they baptize with water, and a sign of the cross in the a • er; they wed their parishioners with a ring, & teach the man to worship his wife, in the name of the Father and of the Son & of the holy Ghost: they church the women after childbirth: they visi • the sick, and absolve him from all his sins, and howsel him with a Communion : and last of all, they bury the dead, in sure and certain hope of resurrection to eternal life. And this is enough for priests to do in the country parishes; but in the Cathedral churches, where Bishops, Deans ; and other great Doctors do reside; there the Queriste • s and Organ-pipes, make sweeter melody. Mr. Bern. confesseth that the Lord only prescribes the duties to be done in every distinct • ffice: now he that knows not these dutiess to belong to Christ's ministers, or these works to be a faithful performance of ministerial office, let him read Mr Bernard's book, for there he hath quoted many scriptures, the end of all which is to raise an evident proof of the truth of their ministry and administration; as if one should cite the second commandment, for to uphold idolatry.

The effects of their administration, in converting souls, is but a vain boast, as their idolatrous estate, with the lamentable ignorance and profaneness of the people everywhere showeth The reasons brought by others (for Mr Bern bringeth none,) to persuade such effects, are before in this treatise answered.. It maketh also against the estate of this church and ministry; for if these preachers have converted and wrought faith in some of their hearers, then it followeth that before that conversion they were infidels, yet were they of the church and had this ministry set over them, as all men know. Which how it can stand with the r • les of God's word, hath never yet been shown. The example which Mr Bern. allegeth of th' Apostle 1 Cor, 9.1.2. helpeth him nothing: For Apostles were sent to convert heathens, but Pastors are set for to feed converted Christians. And the Priests of England challenge to be Pastors, I ween, and not Apostles. Again the work and seal of Paul's Apostleship was seen in Corinth, by separating the believers from infidels; and g • there • ng the Saints only into the communion of the church, under the officers gi • en of Christ but in England the vnb • leeuers and wicked, were received and are retained in the church. So that Mr. Bern. is but a • alse Apostle (as his work shows) if he be any at all. But in the end he tells us we forget to justify the lawfulness of our own ministers, who are made • i • ist • rs • y s • ch as are no ministers, contrary to the constant practice of the church of God, from the days of Adam hitherto. &c. In which dispute, Mr. Bern. teacheth plain apostasy from the Gospel unto Popery, from wh • ch he deriveth the min • stery of his church of Engl. For seeing all the examples that he allegeth from scriptures, are of Divine persons and approved ministers of the true church; and coming to his church of England, he fetcheth her ministry out of the Popish church and from the Prelates thereof, it cannot be (if his last words agree with his first) but the po • ish church is a true church, and their prelates true ministers. Otherweise h • s reasoning is absurd, to say, God ordained Adam, Moses odeyned Aaron; Christ ordained the Apostles; the Apostles ordained orther m • nisters in churches: therefore Antichrist of Rome, his synago • ue of Satan, & h • s eldest son • es the Prelates, must or may ordain mini • ters in the church of Christ. If this be a good consequence let all men judge: if ••• s it be not, then Mr. Bern. holdeth the popish church, and the • opish ministers true ministers; and so himself and his church of England must needs be schismatiks for leaving that church of Rome. When he hath cleared himself of this his absurd doctrine, then (if he cannot see that the church of Christ hath power to ordain her own ministers) it shall be shown h • m by the scriptures, T • ll then, what should we do following of a wavering reed, whom we cannot tell by his writing, whether he be Papist or Protestant. And that the reader may see into what an intricate Labyr • nth the ministers of England have brought themselves, about this matter of their ministry, by writing as they have do • both of the Papists and of us: I will set down a Papist argument against them: from which how handsomely they can defend themselves, I would fain see. There came out, in anno 1602 a book called A detection of diverse notable untruths &c. wherein the author having to deal wit Mr S •• cliff, who as (he saith) had reasoned thus, The true church is a society of faithful people under lawful Pastors &c But the Church of Rome hath long wanted true Pastors and Bishops; for the Romish Bishops have no authority • r missiō but frō the Pope, to whom also they swear feally: but he hath no authority to send them or ordain them, • eing himself no Bishop, &c. This argument of Mr Sutcliffs the Papist retorteth v • ō thē thus. The true church of Christ hath always true Pastors and Bishops: but the English Congregation wanteth true Priests and Bishops: Therefore the English congreagation 〈◊〉 not the true church of Christ. The fi • st proposition (saith the Papist) he must not deny, being of his own making, &c. The 2, proposition is apparent according to Mr Sutcliffs divinity. For most certain it is, that their first Bishops received their orders and consecration from our catholic Bishops, as his brother Bel confesseth, Survey. pag. 201. And the thing it self speaketh: seeing when L • there begun, there was not any protestant Bishop or Priest &c. And if Mr Sut • life dare deny that their Bishops were c • ns • cratedl • ours, then let him name who they were that did lay hands upon Mr Parker the first of Cant. that derived not their mission authority and consecration from the Bishop of Rome. Certayn it is, th • t • yther none at all can be named, or else none b • sides: therefore if our Bishops be no Bishops, then doth it follow most evidently, that all the English Bishops, be no Bishops at all, as having no other cōsecratiō then from them: And if our English Prelates be no true Bishops, then surely n • yther be they Pri • sts or Minis • ers or Deacons, that be ordained by them, and so consequently the congregation of E • g • , by Mr Sutcliffs argument, not th • true church of Christ. This is the Catholi • s argument and plea: which how Mr Bern. or his brethren will well answer, and stand also to that which they have written against us; I cannot tell.

Finally, against that often boasting of the work and effect of the ministry of Engl, I will oppose a testimony of one of their chief mi • isters, yet our professed adversary, that it cannot be thought he was partial for us at all. Mr Gifford is the man that thus hath written. Som • d • e wonder how it should come to pass; that among us there should be so many which being borne since the gospel was restored in this land are so zealously addicted unto Popery, which th • y never did know. and so utter enemies to the Gospel which they hear. But if they weigh the causes of this deadly mischeef, they will cease wondering at that, and rather wonder that there be no more. For how can it b • so long as there be so many abuses in the ministry, but that many shall stumble and loath the Gospel. For from thence as it is manifest, the chief cause of this evil doth spring. True it is that our ministry doth fight against them but yet in such sort, that it doth greatly increase them. Seeming and pretending to tread upon those cockatrise eggs, for to break them, and so • o destroy utterly th • viperous generation: when as indeed they sit upon them, and so hatch the bro • ds of this evil kind, and bring them forth in great plenty. For behold a number cry out against popery, and proclaym utter defiance in speech: but their doings are such, that for everyone which they convert to the g • spel, they cause an hundred to revolt, to be hardened in their errors, or to fall into flat Atheism. While many contrary to the professiō w • ich they made when they entered, setting aside the care of souls, not esteeming nor regarding what become of them, study most how to clime high, and to satisfy their ambitious desire of honor: taking together livings couetously and greedily: not caring who feed the flock, so they may •• me by the fleese, Moreover the door hath been opened also • o let into the church 〈…〉 and swarm of such, as are more like the priests of Jeroboam, then minister • of the gospel: not only unlearned idols, which have mouths and speak n • t; which being weary of their occupations, and covet to live easily, and to that end are entered; but also riotous, dicers, gamesters, quaffers, quarrellers, adulterers and such like. If the matter were secret I should do amiss to make it manifest; but when it is open in the sight and view of all men, who can complain justly when it is spoken of ? Let this record of Mr G • ffords, for the effect of their administration and their good qualities besides, together with Mr Bernard's former doctrine for their first calling and ordination by the popish prelates; show whether it be not like, that this ministry will ere long make accord with the mother church of Rome that hatched it, and for whom it again hatcheth cockatrices eggs.

The tenth error that we should hold is, that their worship ( in Engl. ) is a false worship. To prove this to be an error, Mr Bern. bringeth these reasons.

1. That they worship no false God.

I answer. Neither did Jeroboam the son of Neba • who made Israel to syn: yet used he a false worship 1 King. 12.

2. That they worship the true God with no false worship ; for they have the true word preached, the true sacraments, and their prayers are such as ma • be warranted by the word. &c.

I answer, this is but taking for granted, that which he should prove; for he knows well that we deney th • se things, and by many reasons in sundry books (none of which Mr Bern. answereth) have disproved their preaching, ministering of Sacraments, book prayer &c. Seeing he will answer nothing before written by us, let him in his next book, prove that the Apocrypha scriptures and homily books, which they read in God's worship are his true word ; that the sacraments which the unpreaching priests minister to their profane parishioners by their popish leitourgie, are true sacraments; let him approve by God's word the observation of all their holy days, fasting days, with their prescript peculiar service; briefly, let him show warrant for his service book, the making and use thereof with all the popish contents therein. These are strange incense, new forgeries of their own, never appointed by Christ or his Apostles: wherefore we doubt not to affirm their worship to be false, even an human invention. With these things Mr Bern. medle • h not, but bringeth proof for other matters, which we never denied; and referreth us to an after treatise. which now next followeth to be answered. Yet ere he leaveth us, he will utter all his heart, and from his inner store poureth out against us 12. errors moe, wh • ch he will not spend time (he saith) in con • ut • tion of, they are so absurd and false; being also (as he thinketh) con • ured by the former. Though nothing need be answered where no show of proof is made: yet to satisfy the reader and show him the vanity of this adversary, I will briefly touch them all; and they be these.

[ I] 1 That their congregations, as they stand, are all and every of them incapable before God to choose them ministers, though they desire the means of salvation.

Al such as desire the means of salvation in what congregations soever, have, ower and liberty from God to separate from all evil, and join together in good, and so to enjoy God's blessings in his ministry, or any other part of the Gos • el But, we hold that no false church, hath power from God to choose ministers: which he hath ordained only for true churches. 1 Cor. 12.28. E • h. 4, 12 R • m. 12.4, 5 &c. & we wonder with what face any Christian can say otherwise. If Mr Bern. make the error to be in holding them false churches; then is it the same with the 8. error before answered, and is here b • t idly of him repeated.

[ II] 2. That God in their best assembli • s, is worshipped after a false manner.

An other idle repetition of that which before he made our Tenth error, which there was answered.

[ III] 3. That baptism is not administered into the faith of Christ simply, but into the faith of Bishops, and Church of Engl.

This I think is Mr Bernard's uncharitable collection, not our Position. Though we hold baptism among them to be administered neither by a true minister nor after a lawful manner, but according to their own prescript Liturgy and to the seed of the w • cked, with great dishonor of the precious blood of Christ; and therefore to be no true seal of God's covenant unto them.

[ IIII,] 4. That their faith and repentance is a false faith, and a false repentance.

Faithfulness and repentance is desired in Mr Bernard himself, who careth not to calumniate us We profess to judge no secret things such as true faith and repentance are. We are persuaded many in true churches may have a false faith and a false repentance, because there are many hypocrite • also that many in false churches may have true faith and repentance, for there are God's elect But who these are on both sides, we leave unto God that knows them. Of Mr Bernard's church this is that we say, they walk not in the true faith, they bring not forth fruits of tr • e repentance, in the public estate wherein they stand.

[ V] 5. That th • ir Ministers converting men to God there, do it not as Pastors but as Teachers.

This distinction which Mr Bern. skoffeth at▪ must rest, skoff and all, in his own bosom, till he bring out another father. I know not who begat it.

[ VI] 6. That their church standeth in an adultrous estate. A strange assertion (saith Mr Bern.) what idol worship we ?

False worship is spiritual adultery Ier. 3. If Mr Bern. were not a stranger in Christ fold, he would so acknowledge it, and not count it our error. If he say the error is in holding their worship to be false; then say I, he repeteth now the third time, that which before he made our 10. & again our second Errors, and if he go forward thus, he may multiply it to a thousand, and teach us new Arithmetik. If he would know what idol he worships ! let him take his Ordinary for one among many, who standeth for a spiritual Lord over many churches, vsur • ing Christ's place: to him doth Mr Bern. with his flock, bow and stoup. An other idol he may •• nde in his pue.

7. That we cannot say certainly by any warrant of God's word, that any of [ VII] them hath either faith or fear of God.

A hard speech, If that man whom he mentioneth in the margin, so said; let not one man's word be imputed to our common cause He may see it otherwise minded by others of us, before in this treatise pag. 39 and our Apolog. pag. 91.92.

8. That n • ne of their ministers may be heard. [ VIII]

Not heard in the execution of their ministry, for it is of Antichrist. Christ's sheep hear his voice, not a strangers John, 10 All Antichrists ministers are strangers. So are all ministers of every false Church. Such their church and ministry hath been proved to be in many treatises.

9, That it is not lawful to join in prayer with any of them, [ IX]

As a false church generally, so the members thereof particularly, may not be communicated with in spiritual actions. Such we hold, & have proved their church to be. Til Mr Bern. take away this foundation, he fright • h but with shadows; and showeth his ignorance in the communion of the Saints.

10. That ministers may not celebrate marriage nor bury the dead. [ X]

There wanteth a third thing to make up the error, Churching of women These and the l • ke ministerial functions, we know the Romish Antichrist layeth on his priests, and the Prelates of England on theirs: But in Christ's testament we find no such duties imposed upon his ministry Let Mr. Ber therefore bury his dead still; for he will quicken but a few by his popish doctrine.

11, That ministers should only live of voluntary contribution, and not either [ XI] of set stipends or tithes.

Against this Mr Bern. allegeth God's wisdom who allowed a settled maintenance under the law: and there is nothing against it in the Gospel,

God in wisdom appointed tithes, first fruits & other particulars for his Prirsts liuelihod ūder the law: Christ in wisdom appoint • th nonee such for his ministers under the gospel; but Pope Paschalis about 827 years after Christ decreed that tithes should be given to the priests. This Popes wisdom Mr Ber. preferreth before Christ's. It cannot be deneyed but tithes were a part of the Law, and that Chris • abolished the legal Priesthood; whereupon it followeth by the plain doctrine of the Gospel, if the priesthood be changed, then of necessity must there be a change of the law. Heb. 7.12. But Mr Bern, had rather any shadow should be done away then this of Tithes, for it hath much substance with it. and there be moe siluersmithes of Demetrius mind which said, Siroye know, that by this craft we have our goods. But what saith one of their own ancient Martyrs against Mr Bernard's predecessors. This Priesthood is blown so high and borne up in pride and vain glory of their estate and dignity, and so blinded with worldly covetousness, that th • y disdain to follow Christ in very meekness and willful poverty, living holily, and preaching God's word truly freely and continually, taking th • ir livelihood at the freewill of the People; of their pure almose, where and when they suffice not for their true and busy preaching to get their sustenance with their hands To this true sentence grounded on Christ's own l • uing, and teaching of his Apostles, these foresaid worldly and fleshly priests, will not consent effect ally, &c. If this martyr were now alive, the Clerg • e of England would sooner condemn him for a Brownist then appro • e of his doctrine; albeit now that he is dead, they garnish his toomb.

[ XII] 12. That their churches ought to be raced down, and not to be jmployed to the true worship of God.

To repair this ruin, M. Bernard telleth us; there is great difference between Antichristianism and Paganism. He might tell us also there is great difference between Paganism & Paganism, some Pagans worship • ng the true God ignorantly; some the Sun and Moon and host of heaven, some the Diuil himself. But what were this to the purpose? The thing he should show is that God more estemeth favoreth alloweth or tolerateth antichrists idol houses, then of the Pagans. Till he do this, we know that by God's word and in his account, as Pagans worship Devils, so Antichristians worship diu • ls Let men feign to themselves what difference they l • st. But it must be proved (saith Mr Bern.) that our churches were built by Antichrist. First God in his law required no such proof, when he commanded utterly to destroy all the places wherein the nations which Israel should possess served their God's ; whether it were in the grove which Abraham himself had planted, or on the altars which he had built; the law of God made no inquiry Secondly, If M, Bern. will seek the records of his temples, he may find many to have been built by Papists, if he will grant that they be Antichristians: or if he will go f • rther, he may find some of them built by heathens, and dedicated to Devils. But though the Records said nothing, yet the form and shape of these mass houses, proclaim them to be the very shrines of idols, and liable to the Curse.

Thus are we come to an end with M, Bernard ; passing by his impertinent discourses, which in his roving he ran into: leaving him also for his unchristian reproaches, and injurious calumniations, to the mercy or judgment of the Lord, who behold cometh with ten thows • nds of his Saints to give judgment against all men, and to rebuke all the ungodly among them, of all their wicked deeds which they have wickedly committed, and of all their cru • l speakings, which wicked sinners have spoke • against him.

THE MINISTERS POSITIONS SHAKEN.

THere is added to Mr Bernard's book, another work entitled; CERTAIN POSITIONS held and maynteined by some godly ministers of the gospel, against those of the separation, and namely against Barrow & Greenwood. The groundwork whereof is thus laid;

That the Church of England is a true Church of Christ and such a one as from which whosoever wittingly and continually separateth himself, cutteth himself • ff from Christ

I will not stand upon the consequences that may be made of this position, whereby all that abhor • ng the abominations in that church, and so separating from it, are quite cut off from Christ, whatsoever truth they proof •• e and walk in, or whats • ever other church they join unto: but I will insist in a brie • answer to that which these Ministers bring to prove this their peremtory sentence, and they be 4. reasons.

1, For that they enjoy and join together in the use of those outward means which God in his word hath ord • yned for the gathering of an invisible Church: that is, preaching of the gospel, and administration of the sacraments.

2. For that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith.

3. For that th • y hold and teach &c. all truths fundamental.

4. For that all known churches in the world acknowledge that church for the • r sister, and give unto her the right hand of fellowship.

These things have been before handled in this treatise, and the weakne •• e of them discovered: yet because it may be thought new men will make new arguments, and many heads together bring forth deep counsels, let us weigh what these godly ministers have here said.

For proof of the first point, they do allege that the means which they use and enjoy have been effectual to the unfeigned conversion of many: as may appear both by the other fruits of faith that may be found amongst them, and by the martyrdom which sundry have endu • ed &c: yea even we our selves are able to witness with them, that if there be any true faith and sanctification in us, it was begun and bred in th • ir assemblies,

Secondly, that if Mat. • 8.18.20 Eph. 4, 11.12.14 be well examined, it will • e found that the means which Christ ordained for the gathering of an invisible church are the very same which they enjoy even the preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments.

I answer; All this that they say will not prove their, Position, namely that the church of England which consisteth of the whole nation, divided in to many dioceses and parishes, under one or two Archbishops &c. is a true church of Christ. For the Papists boast of all these things, as colorable and as truly as these ministers Their priests have converted many from Pagenisme, Judaism, and profaneness of life; their church hath had many martyrs; Luther and others that first left them, had their faith begun in their assemblies; &c. and whatsoever Ministry is in England, from the Archprelate to the half priest, the Papists, have amongst them yea Engl. had it from them. And it is to be admired that these godly ministers can allege nothing for their church, but such old popish stales.

How vainly they assume these things unto themselves, hath been shown befo • e: fruits of faith appear no • in their confuse assemblies wh • re God is publ • ckly dishonored by false worship; his enemies (profane & wicked people) fostered and ble • sed with his most holy things, and Antichristian prelates, and Canons obeyed:

Were it as they say, that many have been converted, is that • enough to make all the church? We have testimonies from their own mouths that there be swarms and thousands of profane, irreligeous, atheists, blasphemers and open wicked livers Mr Gifford a champion of their own hath confessed and printed it that through want and absence of • sincere ministry, there is a flood of ignorance and darkness overflowing the most part of the land: the fear of God is banished from the greatest part: the wonderful heaps and piles of sin, which should be washed and cleansed away by the word, do undoubtedly with one voice cry allowed in the ears of the Lord for ve • geance upon the whole realm &c Shall now a few supposed converts, mak • all this rowt a Christian church? It is impiety, and an overthrow of the Gospel. Gen. 3.15. 2 Cor. 6.14, 18, Mat, 15.13. Reu. 21..2:3.27. and 28.15.

What mean these Ministers to boast so much of their martyrs whose blood cries against them, in the ears of the Lord of hosts. For did not their church kill them? Let one of themselves speak in this case, least we be thought partial. Who knoweth not (saith Mr Nichols,) how much blood of God's Saints. was spilled in former ages, and how many houses were guilty of blood? And when did this land serio • sly and sincerely humble it self. & by • pen repentance make reconciliation for the same? Nay rather how many thousands repined at the happy reign of her majesty, for the casting out of the idolatrous and superstitious worship of God, and for the establishing of his holy nam • and the liberty in preaching of the G • spell ? This testimony is known to b • true; the greater is their sin that now plead for such a people to be a true Church of God. Shall the Cainites be honored for Abel's martyrdom; or the Jews for crucifying Christ ? then also may the bloody gen • tion of Papists be canonized for Saints, and made members without r • pentance) of a Christian church. And for these ministers, let them heart and make use of Christ's words to their predecessors. Woe unto you, for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them Truly y • bear witness and allow the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and y • build their sepulchers. Fulfil ye also the measure of your Fathers.

It is a slight and simple kind of reasoning, to tell us if those scripture • Mat. 28. Eph. 4. be well examined; it will be found that the means which Christ ordained for the gathering of an invisible church, ar the very same which they enjoy. First, what doting Friar will not say this much, for his popish Synagogue? Then, why do not these ministers bring the means they boast of to the examination by these scriptures: is it enough (think they to the examination by these scriptures: is it enough (think they) to cite a text or two, and then ran away; The scriptures they allege have been before examined and the ministers of Engl. being put into the other balance, are found all too light. But if it were true that they had the mean • ; yet their argument is false if they conclude of the effect. Israel had far better means ; then England I am sure: for the Prophets, and Apostles and Christ himself preached among them Yet loe he complaineth that he had labored in vain ; for Jerusalem killed the Prophets, and stoned those that were sent unto them, and the Lord by his Apostles stretched forth his hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people. And shall we think that the Pr • ests of Engl. have such power and grace tied to their lips, that because they have • reached, therefore the whole nation is a true church? Or dot • there such virtue proceed from these ministers, as can make the multitu • e of swaggering professors, atheists, blasphemers, and all sorts of profane which swarm in the land, to be turned Christians. worthy to be washed and fed with the body and blood of, Christ. and yet continue atheists and profane as before? what wondrous effect shall we next hear of, but that their preaching hath converted the Devils also.

But let us hear what testimony M. Gifford hath left beh • nde him, of the gra • & learned pr • achers of the church of Engl: among whom himself was one,) and of the people in their parishes, The Diull ( saith he) is content those preachers should ride upon his back because he is sure they will not spurg all him: they be very gentle riders. Do ye not think, that if they should set forth God's word as they ought, and spread the light: that all wicked, (of which their parish is full,) would storm and fret against them? the Devil himself would fi • k about, if they should spur him but a little. But they can tell a smooth tale in the pulpit garnished with some merry story, for to make the people merry or else some old rotten allegory; or some far fetched matter out of some great writers, that their people may be at their wits end and admit them. A man would think to see the people come out of the church blowing, that they were fed as full as tikes: when they go home with empty bellies. This I dare warrant, if it be not so let me loose both mine ears, that g • e through the parishes of these gra • e and learned Divines and except such as run to fetch their victuals otherwhere, ye shall not find fi • e among five score, which are able to understand the necessary grounds and principles of religion: and yet the People will say, they be excellent deep men. But I love not those welles which are so deep, that a man can draw no water out of them. Loe here the means which the, parishes of England do enjoy, and worthy effects that follow. If Mr Barrow. or any of us, should I have written this, it would have been counted s •• ffing, r • yling, & blasphemy : but now that Mr Gifford, (so worthy a patron of the church) hath thus recorded, I hope the witness will be thought irrefragable And now let these godly ministers examine Mat 28. & Eph. 4 and see if there they can find these means which they enjoy, justified.

But they proceed and tell us in their second reason that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith. For the Confessiō of their church tegither together with the Apology thereof, and those articles of religion agreed upon in the Conuocation house, anno 1562, do prove this evidently. But herein they would deceive the simple evidently: for first profession of the true saith, when men in practice do deny it, maketh them not a true church, but they are as the Apostle saith, abominable.

Then for profession it self, if it be by constraint, for fear of punishment, by m • n that otherwise are profan • , lewd, and dissolute and enemies to the gospel this is no true profession, such as will make men a true church, for they ought to receive and profess the truth willingly and gladly Psal, 110.3. Act. 2 41. Now we know that with them, men were and are forced to the profession they make, and if it were at their own choice, many thousands would profess otherwise. Their own acts and Monuments, (besides manifest experience) do witness this. For Mr Fox reporteth, that when K. Edward had established this church and religion many people in Cornwall. Deuenshire and other places, not only misliked it, but openly rebelled for their old idolatry. The Priests, though some allowed, yet others dissembled, and many carelessly con • emned all, and still excercised their old mon • ed Popery. The Justices &c were not only slack in furthering of religion, but hindered so much as lay in them the Kings proceedings &c. So that civil force, not Christian zelo made men Protestants in that Kings days: wherefore at his death, having gotten Q. Mary, they so • up again their Romish superstition, and persecuted the other unto the death. Til Q. Elisah came, and enforced them the second time to put away the • r Latin Mass and images, and receive that English service and ceremonies, wh • ch since have prevailed to this day, Wh • ch how willingly the people ye • lded unto, Mr Nichols testimony (to omit all others) before alleged, showeth.

And How well this religion is liked of now after so many years▪ let the multitude of church papists in England show: together with the whole row • of rebels in Ireland, all which are of the communion of the church of Engl, having the same Bishops, Priests, service & • the English and Irish that dwell in the country, being joined together in one body and brotherhood: Then add to these papists, the profane time-seruers, such as M. Gifford deseribeth thus, I know there be many which care not for the Pope, but yet believe much of his doctrine: they be those which we call Atheists of no religion: but look whatsoever any prince doth set forth that they will profess and add unto them those other firarmes in the church of England that Mr Chaderton complaineth of; eronius and heretical sectaries, witches, charmers sorcerers, murderers, thieves, adulterers, liars, &c and all these together being compelled by law into one church and brotherhood, can any man doubt now of that which these ministers, say, that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith ?

The Confession, Apology. and Conuocation-house articles, are strange proofs of the people's profession. If a few men in their Studies or Consistories, write books or articles of religion. and send them a broad; must all people that see or hear them, will they nil they, needs be counted professors of that religion? yea such also as never heard of them in their lives nor cannot tell what they meāe? Surly these ministers ar either very ignorant, or careless what they say, when they call this an evident proof. The churches in France and Belgium have published Confessions and Articles also, better then those in England: yet are there thousands and ten thousands dwelling among them, that neither so profess, nor are members of their churches.

But if it were granted that the public writings, articles canons &c. are to be esteemed the faith & profession of all Engl. yet we deny them to make profession of the true faith; for their Service book, homilies. book of Ordination, with the impious canons confirming all the Romish idolatries, Antichristian clergy and ceremonies that are among them, excommunicating, ipso facto, all that speak against them; this is no true Christian profession, whatsoever other truths are mixed with them. For as the Papists holding many good grounds of religion in general, yet by other additions and contradictions, do overthrow the truth: so is it in England, as before in this treatise, and in many others, hath been proved and after shall further appear.

Whereas these Ministers confidently deny that their church accounteth any one for her child or member, that doth not profess the faith of Christ in some measure : it is nothing but a vain flourish. For was there ever such grossnes in the deepest gulf of Popery as to deney Christ utterly, and not to profess him in some measure ? Nay it could not be the throne of Antichrist unless he did profess Christ. It is well known, none are baptized among the Papists, but they profess the very same faith that is now professed at the baptism in Engl. namely that which they call th' Apostles Creed So then what have these godly ministers said more then the simplest papist in the world could have said for his church? Now in that they make this a color, as if the profane and wicked were not accounted children of the church: they show themselves to be the snare of a fowler in all their ways: yet set they a snare so slight, that every man may break it. For who knows not that there be multitudes of profane and wicked persons in the land? Who knows not that the whole land generally is baptized? Yea the baptisiing of the seed of the most wicked, is not only practiced but befended in print, by their late Archbishop D. Whitg. who pleaded what if it be the child of a dronkard, or of an harl • t? what if the Parents be papists? what if they be heretics? &c. shall not their children be baptized ? Yes, he will have it to be a common passage for all uile persons, Good and evil (saith he) clean and unclean, holy and profane, must needs pass by it. And at baptism their service book teacheth the priest to say of everyone, we receive this child into the congregation of Christ's flock. Being thus received, not one of a thousand wicked persons, are ever excommunicated: but are fostered in the church until their death; and then the priest is taught again to say that it hath pleased God to take unto himself the sowle of their dear brother there departed, and so he committeth his body to the ground in sure and certain hope of resurrection to eternal life. This being the general state of the land, as all men know; what dissemblers are these Ministers to intimate. as if their church acknowledged not the open wicked for her children and members? Mr Gifford, when time was, yielded far otherwise. I confess (saith he) that our church, if ye understand the whole assembly, is full of all wicked vices. There are a number among us which are of your brood, speaking to a • apist,) wh • se evil life is seen well enough, there ar • a very great number of mere worldlings which do not greatly esteem any religion although they seem now because of laws, to allow and favor our side. &c.

Now having said somewhat for themselves, such as it is, they cavil at our description of a church, when we say, that it is a company of faithful people that truly worship Christ and rea •• lie obey him. This say these Ministers, is utterly untrue if it be understood of the visible church. This is strange. What would they have us describe the Church to be a company of infidels ; or a company of faithful and of infidels together: when Paul teacheth that there is no communion between such, 2 Cor 6.14.15 or should we say, a people that falsely worship Christ? Indeed if so we held, we might well return to their Church of England; for there is false worship more then enough. The Apostle writing to the visible church of Ephesus, calleth them Saints, and th • faithful in Christ Jesus. Will they say that this also was utterly untrue ? Their own Articles of religion in England say thus; the visible church of Christ, is a congregation of faithful people &c. and is this also vtt • rly untrue ? But let us hear their reason why this should be untruth. For (say they) if everyone that the church may account a visible member, be truly faithful, how is our Savior to be understood when he compareth the chur • h or ministry thereof to a draw net gathering as well that which must be cast away as good fish &c. Me thinks these godly ministers f should be ashamed so to deprave not only our meaning, but our very words, that when we say of faithful people, that truly worship, they will turn and trans • lace them to truly faithful, and then gather (as afterwards they do,) as if men may not account any to be members of the church, by their outward profession, vnl • sse they know them to have true faith, which the Lord only is able to dis •• rne. Could any reasonable man thus construe our words, or gather from them, unless he purposely would deprave? especially knowing (as these men know well) our constant witness otherwise, who esteem of all men, by their outward profession and walking; and have long since published in our Confussion, that many hypocrites will lurk in the church whiles it is on earth. But thus it pleased these men to abuse us, before the simple reader.

Their third reason for their church is, that they hold teach and maintain every part and article of God's holy truth which is fundamental. The proof of this, they would have to be seen in their Confessions, Catechisnes and Articles of religion published and approved of in their church.

This reason is like (if not the very same with) the former, which s • ache also of professing the true faith, as was to be seen in their Conf • s ••• n, Apology, & Articles. What mean these ministers to cloy their reader so often̄ with one dish of meat, a little diuertly dressed? It is doubtless for want of better store. Yet this wh • ch they bring is very unsavory, for it is not seasoned with the salt of God's covenant. First for that point of f • ndamentall truth, which they so long have stood upon, and co • ld neu • r be gotten distinctly to show what truth is fundamental, and what not: we have now these ministers resolute judgment of it thus, The only fundamental truth in religion is this; That Jesus Christ the Son of God, who took our nature of the Virgin Mary, is our only and all-sufficient Savior For proof of this, they first allege, that th • y receive this truth are the people of God, and in the state of salvation: they that receive it not cannot possibly be saved. Mat. 16.18 Mark. 16.16 1 I • h. 4.2. Col 2.7.

But first, none of these scriptures do say, that this one article, which these ministers have set down in this form of words, is the only fundamental truth in religion. Neither doth any other scripture, that I know of, so speak; for though Christ only is the foundation of the Christian church; and though (as they secondly allege) no other point of religion is necessary otherwise then as it tendeth necessarily to teach or confirm this one truth: yet followeth it not, but other points also are fundamental truths the denial of which will abolish from Christ.

Secondly they have altered, added to, and omitted some of the words of these scriptures, for their own advantage: For fearing that we would (as indeed we mean to do) press them with the profession of the Anabaptists Papists and other heretics; they think to prevent us. And first against the Anabaptists which deny that Christ took our flesh, these men have added, who took our nature of the Virgin Mary. Then against the papists which hold merit of works, they adjoin these words, our only and all-sufficient Savior. And this because the church of England mainteyneth the truth in these points, against those fore said heretics. On the other hand to help themselves in their corrupt Antichristian walking, and false constitution; they omit and mention not th' Apostles words Col. 2. where he saith, As ye have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught &c The discreet reader may soon espy their purpose in this cunning carriage. For let the position be set down in the scripture terms, and we shall see, how weak their plea will be. The only fundamental truth in religion is this: That Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, come in the flesh in whom we must believe and h walk, being rooted and build in him, and stablished in the faith as we are taught in the new testament.

If now these ministers will insist upon the three first scriptures only, and general terms that are in them; it is apparent that the Papists, Anabaptists and many other miscreants, do hold and profess them absolutely: absolutely: But if they join with them, Colos. 2. and compare the walking rooting, building, and stablishing in the faith taught by th' Apostles, with the Popish church, or with their own; it will be found that neither of them hold the fo • ndation Christ aright. Themselves w • ll grant it of the Pap • sts and other heretics. and for their own church, it is before in this treatise proved▪

So then to come again unto their reason, that they hold, • e • ch and maintain every part of God's holy truth which is fundam • ntall ; whereby they woul • concl • de themselves to be a true chr • ch the ar • ument is deneyed. F • r first if • t were granted that th • y h • ld, • aught and may • teyn • d every part of fund •• ental truth, which yet with them is but one article only as we have heard,) it w • ll not follow necessarily that therefore they are a true ch • rch, or that they truly profess the Christ an faith. There wan • two things; 1 obedience to the truth professed; (witho • t which men shall be damned, whatsoever they profess,) 2 and a right profession of the true faith only, without err • urs adjoined that overthrow the same faith, and obedience thereto For if a people proof • sing that only fundamental truth which these ministers speak of; should withal profess Mahomet the prophet of the Turks ; or H. N. the God of the Familists ; or any other like abomination: were this misceline profession of Christ and Belial together. a true and sound proof • sion? I trow not. So then these ministers must alter their plea thus; that they hold teach maintain and obey every part of the fundamental truth, and nothing else with it, that overthrows the same. If now they say this they do, I have before in this treatise disproved it; and here again will briefly disprove it, thus. They profess to believe the Communion of Saints ; and that the visible church is a congregation of faithful people. Yet contrariweise they hold teach and maintain, that their own church is a true church of Christ; though it consists as well of unholy as holy, infidels as believers and innumerable wicked persons openly seen and known. That this they hold & maintain, is pro • ed by their continual clamors and reproachful writings against us, that call upon them for a separation of light from darkness. It is proved by Dr W • itgifts plea before mentioned, that the children of Papists, heretics, and other wicked persons are and ought to be baptized among the • It is further proved by the visible estate of their church known unto all among them, and test • fied by her dearest friends & favorers. M • Gifford speaking to his brethren • f the Communion of Saints in Engl. saith, Ye would even pour out your stin • ing and r • t • en p • yson, like blasphemous and venomous beasts: ye would speak after this manner, you that are so full of the spirit; you that are Saints, and su • h like. What are you Di • ils; are ye of the flesh? No do • ut ye are, until God convert ye. But we may se how diui • ishly men ar become wicked: when a man cannot make any appearance to be godly and holy, but it is reproached as though it were a shameful thing to be lead by the spirit &c. These and the like records, with the continuance continuance in this confused estate, plainly prove an overthrow of that article of the true church; which is the body of Christ: and the body being disanulled, Christ the head cannot soundly be retained.

Again, they profess in Engl. that the pu • e word of God is to be preached, the sacraments duly administered &c. also, that in our doings, that will of God is to be followed which we have expressly decleared unto us in the word of God. Yet withal, they profess and practice in that church, to read the Apocrypha • criptures (in which are found untruths and errors, when many parts of the authentic scripture, are never read among them.) they have also written homilies, in stead of preaching; a written Le • tourg • e, Litany, collects &c. in stead of praying; which Leitoargie with all the popish contents therein. must be approved and used by all the Priests and people, and God served by it every day. They have also an antichristian clergy, ca • led and ordained according to their pontifical, or book of ordination, which • n their belief, hath not anything that of it self is s • perstitious and ungodly &c. Finally all the Romish relics yet in England to be seen in the hierarch • e, worship, ceremonies, ordinances church constitution &c. (which things can never be approved by the word of God,) are yet held and upheld, taught and maintained in the church to the excommunicating and persecuting of all such, as speak against them, or refuse to communicate with them. This sinful mixture, and maintenance of so much ant • Christian error, with the Christian truths that they proof •• e; is no true Christian profession and practice of our obedience unto the fundamental truth of the gospel: neither can the ministers prove, that these contraries will stand together, when account shall be given before the judgment seat of Christ.

Secondly I answer (as to their former reason that although some Bishops and Priests have written Articles, Catechisms &c. yet are not these approu • d, much less walked in, by the church of Engl. neither are the people rooted, b • ilded, and stablished in the faith according to Colos. 2. but are di •• olute and profane in their conversation, rooted in uices, and stablished in iniquitis as lamentable experience teacheth all men; as the test • mon • es of their own ministers before alleged prove, and many other we might allege, and must; if these men still continue to urge that, which is known to be far otherwise. For how well their people do walk in the faith of the foundation Christ, and approve of all fundamental truths in the scriptures; let these testimonies of their own friends show. The most part of your honest men (saith Mr Gifford to and of his brethren) now a days, delight so much in the word of God, and meditate so much in it, that they care not a button though they never hear it. they love it: and set as much by it as they do by an old s •• e. Every man (saith another) followeth the pride covetousness, whoredom, drunkenness, of his own heart, and no man remembereth Joseph. The bars are filled with pleadings, & the streets are full of cries of the poor, fullness of meat, and contempt is among us, and who considereth! Yet if this our sin were only against men, and not against God there • ight be some hope. But when the mouth of the bl • spemous swearer is not ti • d up, and the hands of the idolatrous generation of Atheists and profane persons be not chained, when the most holy and precious word of God is manifestly contemned, the joyful and heavenly tidings of salvation so negligently and ungratefully trodden under foot, the true and faithful messengers pursued, arraygnned and diverse ways • fflicted: then if the old world for malicious imaginations Sodom and Gomora for pride fullness of meat and unmercifulness: if Jerusalem for abusing God's Prophets and willfulness were woefully destroyed: what may we poor careless People look for it we do not repent, but (as it is almost universally feared sp • edy ruin and utter desolation,

The exceptions which these Godly ministers take against Mr Barrowes writings, and yet profess not to answer them; need not now to be stood upon, till the particulars whereby he hath discovered their errors and evil dealings, be by them taken away. They further tax & note it in him as a strange opinion and an error full gross, maintained in pag. 156.157. of his Discouery, vidz that every truth contained in the scripture is fundamental. But the grossnes or crossnes will be found in themselves for that which Mr Barrow there inveigheth against, was this, that though transgressions and errors be obstinately continued in, and openly taught. after they be reproved and convinced by the word of God, yea and the parties die in that estate without repentance of these transgressions or errors: yet may they hold the foundation and be vadoubtedly saved. Of this mind were, and still continue (saith he) five of the very principal and best esteemed ministers of Engl. both for learning and conscience: although there were alleged against the same these express scriptures, Num. 15.30 31. Exod. 23.21. 1 Sam. 15.22.23. Ezek. 18.26 Mat. 5, 18, 19 I am. 2 10. &c.

This was the thing that M, Bar. there bet down, showing further, that if the whole scripture was given by inspiration of God, and is profitable to teach, to convince, to correct, to instruct in righteousness; if it be the groundwork and foundatiō of the church, of our faith: if it be the law and rule of our life, the light of our eyes &c. If every word of God be holy, pure, perpetual; then is this deep learning of theirs, diuilish and blasphemous, that thus to color and cover their wickedness. make some part of gods word fundamental. substantial, necessary, other accidental, superficial, needless, especially where it showeth reproveth and condemneth their doings &c

Now what say these ministers against this plea? they plainly yield in effect to th'truth, which they could with no color gainsay; we believe (say they) and teach, that there is no Part of holy scripture, which every Christian is not necessarily bound to seek, & desire knowledge of so far forth as in him lieth. Very well said &; had they added also this word obeyed, (which I suppose they would be thought to intimate,) there would be no difference between M, Barrow and them, though thus they would traduce him. But least they should seem to condemn themselves, they except. yet dare we not cal every truth fundamental; that is, such as if it be not known and obeyed, the whole religion and faith of the church must needs fall to the ground ; and again; we doubt not that some parts are of more use, and more necessary for men to know, then othersome. In these things (excepting the word fundamental which seemeth to be but strife about a word,) We agree with them; neither doth Mr Barrow, that I can perceive disagree for it is one thing not to know and obey every truth, as they speak, and another thing to know, as hau • ng reproof and conviction by the word of God, and yet to disobey and rebel against the truth, and continue obstinately in transgre • sion▪ which was the point in hand. And for the world fundamental, seeing all God's testimonies are true; and David saith that the Lord hath founded them forever; I see no cause why we need be afraid to call every tr • th fundamental that is such as is firm and stable. and on which we shovld ground and build our faith and actions up on always. Yet seeing now what these ministers understand by the word, I will not strive. Also M, Barrow himself in his Observations upon Mr Giff • rds last reply telleth him that he denieth not in use of speech such distinction, so much as withstand such eronius abuse of that distinction, which M. Gifford and other deuines of these times would infer thereof. And in deed the simple are much beguiled by this subtle distinction. For when the sins and idolatr • es of these Priests are blamed: answer is made, though they be sins, yet are they not fundamental, they cut us not off from Christ we hold him the foundation, and believe to be saved by him alone and by this color, men continue in transgression and idolatry still. which is as if a thief, dronkard, whormaister, blasphemer, or other vicious, liver, being blamed by the laws of God which condemn these sins, should say; These are petty faults I confess, but they are not fundamental: for the only fundamental truth and ground of all God's law is Love, and that is the fulfilling of the law. Rom. 13.8 9.10. Gal. 5.14. 1 Tim. 1.5. Now this foundatio • I hold, for I profess to love God above all, and my neighbor as my s • lfe, on which ground as Christ saith the law and prophets do depend; and this I do, howsoever I cannot keep my tongue from swearing, lying and • i • auldrie, nor my hands from picking and stealing, nor my body chaste, &c. yet my heart is good, I love God and my neighbor, and hope to he saved as well as the precis • st puritan of them all, And now what will these ministers say to the • r profane parishioners, if thus they pleaded? for do not themselves thus plead for the trans • reossins of the first table, and violating of the testament of Christ, in their own false ministry, idolatrous rites, ceremonies, and forged worship. But as every true Christian heart knoweth that such profane ruffians, howsoever they say they love god, yet in deed they hate him, and howsoever the s • mme and end of all the Law is Love only, yet that love implieth obedience to every particular precept, and he which breaketh the least commandment and teacheth men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; as Christ saith: so know they likewise, or should know, that such superstitious idolaters, false and Antichristian Prelates and priests, howsoever they boast of true faith, yet by their works they deney it; and although Faith in Christ be the foundation of Christian religion, yet in im • lieth necessarily obedience unto the ordinances of his Testament, even whatsoever is commanded them therein; and as the curse is denounced against all the transgressors of Moses law in any part thereof; so they shall not escape vengeance that willfully despise the law of Christ or any part of his testament, confirmed with his precious blood. And if thus we understand not and interpret those scriptures which sum up all christianity in Christ; we must needs confess that many false churches, even Rome it self is a true church; seeing they do profess such general grounds of Christ, as by plain evidence of scripture seem sufficient unto salvation, as appeareth by Council Trident. Se • s, 3. compared with Rom. 10.9. Act. 8.37, 38. 1 John. 4.2. Mark. 16.16. also Reims testam annot. on 1 Tim. 2.5. where they profess, Christ by nature to be truly both God and man, to be that on eternal priest and redeemer, which by his sacrifice and death upon the cross, hath reconciled us to God, and paid his blood as a full and sufficient ransom for all our sins, &c.

Howbeit, that these ministers stumble no more at that we profess, let them know, we hold every general head and ground of doctrine more necessary to be known, then ech particular branch of the same? & an error overthrowing a whole ground of religion, to be much more wicked then that which overturneth but a part thereof. Also that many of God's church, are ignorant of sundry particular doctrines of the Gospel yea all of us in some, for none is perfect; yet that in some general grounds, ignorance is damnable; and further that the willful and obstinate refusal or contempt of the least evident truth of the Gospel, is deadly and damnable of it own nature. Neither see we, how we should believe otherwise, unless with the Papists we think some sins venial some mortal As for Mr Barrowes words from John. 16.13. which also, these ministers mistaking do mislike; it is evident by his own writings to the contrary otherwhere, that he meant not so erroneously as they collect. But that promise made to the Apostles, he applieth unto all the members of Christ by proportion, though not in like measure. Which that it may be done, we learn of the Apostles themselves in other like cases. 2 Cor. 4.13. from Psalm. 116. Heb. 13.5.6. from Ios. 1 & Psal. 118. &c.

Their last reason is from the approbation of all the known churches in the world, which acknowledge this church (of Engl.) for their sister, and give unto them the right hand of fellowship. This point is handled before in this treatise, pag. 9. &c. & 48 & 51. &c. unto which places I refer the reader. Many scriptures and reasons these ministers allege from the primitive churches examples, that rejoiced for. and saluted one another; & of and of the comfort that a church may have in the communion and approbation of other churches. All which we grant; and d • e observe, how fast • hey can cite scriptures for things that we deny not. But they say nothing for the controversy between them and us. which consisteth of these 3. points; 1 whither a people may not separate from evil and profess and walk in the truth unless or until other churches allow them 2. whether it be a necessary and undeniable argument, that whomsoever other churches approve, they are true churches, and so must be esteemed of all men; 3 and whither the reformed churches at this day, do approve of the church of England, in all or any of the differences for which we s • parate from them. The first of these is proved by all God's commandments, which require every man particularly to refrayn all evil, and do that which is good: Exod. 20. The second is disproved by themselves in their writings against the Papists; who pressed them with such reasons. Let councils (saith Mr Whitaker) be esteemed as they deserve: let their decrees be examined by God's word; and if they agree let them be received for that agreement: if not, let them be rejected for the contrary. To this agreeth their own Bishops Articles, ano 1562. Art. 21. and also their Apoligie ; before alleged in this trea • ise; and finally Mr Bernard's own counsel. (though perhaps he knew no more then Caiaphas what he said.) saying; See into the glass of the word by thine own sight, without other men's spectacles &c. For the latter point, we know the reformed churches (as their constitution and writings show) are for us and against them; of which see before pag 10, &c. and it shall hereafter be further confirmed, if these ministers will deny it.

Hitherto of the reasons alleged by the godly ministers wherein how they have proved and settled their first position ; let the godly wise judge. Next follow their answers to the objections made by us. And these they make two.

First, that their church of Engl. was not gathered by such means as God in his word hath ordained and sanctified for the gathering of his Church. Secondly, that they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God, which is polluted with the writings of men, vidz. with read slinted prayers, homilies, catechisms, &c.

Here let it first be observed, that whereas Mr Barrow (whose books they would seem to answer,) hath given 4. causes of our separation, namely the 1. false worship, 2. profane people, 3 false ministry, and 4. Antichristian hierarchy; these godly ministers like the unjust steward that set down fifty for five score, have contracted the 4. causes into 2. for what cause let him that readeth consider.

Secondly in the two which they profess to answer, they keep not the words by Mr Barrow there set down; as to begin with the first; he saith For that the profane ungodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with them received into and retained in the bosom of the church These ministers set down the point to be about the not gathering by due means. Whereas if it were granted that they had due means of gathering, yet the exception made is of force against them, rather more then less for they that have the true means of gathering a church, and yet gather it amiss; the greater is their sin.

Now to the particulars, whereas Mr Barrow had first shown by many scriptures and reasons what manner persons were to be the matter of God's church; and then compared here with the people of the church of Engl. where all sorts of wicked persons are admitted & kept in communion: to this the ministers answer, First that they might lawfully be accounted a true church, though it could not appear that they were at the first rightly gathered. For even as the Disciples might be well assured of Christ's bodily presence amongst them when they saw and felt him, though they could not have discerned which way or how he could possibly come in. so may we esteem them a true church, of whose present profession and faith we are well assured, though we cannot see by what means they were first gathered. This answer of theirs is full of error and fraud; for, (not to speak how they corrupt Mr Barrowes words in the places which they quote; by leaving out things of special importance,) first they blamed because all profane & wicked persons ar of the mater their church; they tell us, they may esteem them a true church of whose present profession and faith, they are well assured. If this answer be direct and to the purpose then we must believe that the godly ministers are well assured of the present profession and faith of all the lewd, profane. irreligious and wicked persons in the realm, which are members of the church of Engl. Against these was the exception made; for these the answer is given, unless they answer their own fancies. and now what assurance the ministers have of such men's faith, let the faithful judge.

Secondly the similitude which they bring, is a great abuse of the reader, whom they would blind with a false comparison; which if it were duly made, would make against them thus. As the disciples might be well a •• ured of Christ's bodily presence when they saw and felt him &c. so men may he well assured of the wicked's bodily presence in the church of Engl: when they see and feel them, as who do not? But now as these men have made the parable, what likelihood of truth is there in it, for justifying the ungodly? If a man seeing a Priest in bed with one of the Popes courtizans, should blame him for this fornication, and another to defend him should plead thus; As we are sure that Sarah was Abraham's wife, though we cannot tell when or how they were married. so may we esteem these two (of whose present chascity we are well assured,) to be lawful man and wife, though we cannot tell how they came together ; would this be a sufficient defense? Yet loe when Mr Barrow blamed the Priests of England for linking themselves in the bed of spiritual love, with the idolatrous Papists and all other wicked of the land, at the beginning of Q. Eliz. and continuing in like sinful commixtur unto this day: these Ministers now, to save their credit, tell us an example of Christ presence, &c. as before is seen. Yea the indignity of it stayeth not here; for as the Apostle by the Ministry of the gospel prepared the church of Corinth, as a pure virgin for her husband Christ, so these men pretending to be true Ministers, will have Papists, Atheists, profane and wicked persons, to be Hephzi-bah people in whom God delighteth ; they will bring this sinful and adulterous generation, even all the ungodly in the land, unto the bed of Christ in his church, whether he will or no Which high transgression, is the overthrow of the main ground of the gospel; which ever since it began to be sounded in the world, hath proclaimed a separation of the children of God from the children of Belial, as before hath been proved. This being thus observed, how these ministers have missed at first o • the question; the further they go, the further they stray, and run themselves out of breath in vain. For neither the examples of Melchizedek, Job, Cornelius &c. nor their reasons following of 2 other means of gathering the church then by the preaching of the Gospel; 3 of the preaching of Mr. Wycliffe. &c 4 & 5 of the course that Q Elizab. took for bringing the Gospel in again &c. none of these (I say) will prove either that open profane and wicked persons, may be received and kept in the bozome of the church; or that there be not multitudes of open profane and wicked, members of the church of England. Their present lamentable estate proclaimeth this latter to all men that have conscience; their own writings also heretofore do strongly confirm it: and all the scriptures cry out against the former & teach a separation as before in this treatise, and in sundry other books is manifested.

As these ministers have thus passed by the main controversy; so have they in their pretended answers, inserted some things corruptly and fraudulently: which I will briefly touch First, for to bolster out the constrained profession of faith, and joining to the church which their people are compelled unto, they plead; that Synce Kings became noursing fathers &c. to the church; their laws have been means to bring men to the outward society of the church; and the parable proveth, that men may be compelled to come; Luk. 14, 23.

This doctrine openeth a door in the church to all the profane in the world, contrary to the scriptures; Isa 25.2 & 35.8, 9.2 Chron. 23.19. Reu. 21.27. Levite. 10.14. Zac. 14.21, 2 Cor. 6.14, 17. Act. 2.41. & 19.9. For if a prince may compel some of his subjects to be members of the church, he may compel all; and if one prince may do it, all may. So if there were such an Emperor as Augustus that commanded all the world to be taxed, he might also command and compel all the world to be joined unto the church. And thus the world and the church, between whom there hath been perpetual war, mought soon be reconciled. If this be a lawful and orderly course, it is strange that Christ sent forth poor fishermen to convert souls by preaching, and set not the princes, (which he could as easily have done, seeing he had all power in heaven, & in earth ) to make disciples by compulsion and penalty.

Now for the parable they allege, it is apparent, that the same servant was sent to compel, that was before sent to call the invited: and if this be meant of the Magistrate then, kings must leave governing and go to preaching. We find in the scripture, that compulsion is not always by the civil sword, but sometime by instant and earnest urging of the word and doctrine; as they that compelled the Galatians to be circumcised; and he that compelled the Gentiles to Judaize. And from this word compel, to urge or gather a civil forced compulsion, is with no more reason or color, then as if some factious rebels should take up arms for to stablish religion; and allege how it is written the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force For as force and violence here, is not civil but spiritual; so is compulsion to be taken in the parable. But a throne (saith Solomon) gets up in a dronkards hand; and a parable in the mouth of fools. Prov. 26.9.

They allege that the first conversion of our land to the faith of Christ, was by preaching of the gospel. Whether this were so or not, remaineth for them to prove in their next book for in this they do it not. They must ( I suppose) take the preaching of the gospel in a large sense, if they will prove it. For as it is vncertayn what was the faith of the ancient Britain's, or how they were converted; so for the English Saxons which were conuerred from Paganism, Mr Bale one of their own writers) saith that Agustine the Roman was sent as an Apostle from Gregory 1. to convert them to a popish faith. And by another Chronicler we learn that Pope Gregory 1. sent this Agustine the monk into Engl. with forty monks moe, which entered the ile of Thennet on the east side of Kent, with a cross & with banners displayed, having a crucifix painted vpō everyone of them singing the Litany, with Orate pro nobis. to all Angels, Archangels, Patriarchs, Prophets, Priests, Apostles, Martyrs, Confessors, Virgins, Monks Nunns, Heremites, and finally to all he Saints and she Saints, that they might have good luck, and well to fare, in setting forth their Romish religion. But howsoever the conversion of English men was then (which is not now to be stood upon till we hear the testimony of the best approved histories, which these men say they have for their assertion) it is sure by the scripures, that the churches in Rome. Corinth, and many other places were converted by the gospel: yet remain they not true churches still. But (say these ministers) since that time many have from age to age been called by the same means, And so say I, hath there been in Rome: yet is she a harlot and not Christ's spouse. Great numbers (say they) were effuectally called in K. Edwards days. I answer, the whole land was compelled by civil force to change their form of service in part; and sundry true doctrines were taught in some places, which some believed: but many disobeyed and rebelled. as before is shown. Neither was that confuse popish multitude with a few conuers therein, a true visible church. Mr Fox describeth the estate thereof by a similitude; a a new face of things began now (saith he) to appear, as it were in a stage, new players coming in, and the old being thrust out. Thus upon that old stage of the popish church, came new players, to weet, new Bishops & Priests; and the mass was then (at first) still by law retained, but the gospel and Epistle read in English ; yet were not all new players for (as is there noted) the priests and clergy that yielded to the kings laws, were suffered to keep th • ir places, livings &c. After this the king appointed the c Archbishop of Cant, with other Bishops &c. to make one convenient and meet order, rite and fashion of common prayer and administration of Sacraments &c. who did so. Then in the Parliament following, it was agreed that all ministers in the realm should be bound to say and use the mattins, euensong celebrating of the Lord's supper &c. in such order and form as was mentioned in the said book and none other or otherwise. But the players, it seemeth, played not their parts well. for after complaint is made, how by the cloaked contempt, will full winking, and stubborn disobedience of Bishops and old Popish curates; the book of common prayer was long after the publishing thereof either not known at all, or else very irreverently used through many places of the realm. Yet was there no great cause why the people should so despise it; for (as the K. answered to the rebels of Deuonsh.) if the service in the church was good in Latin, it remaineth good in English; for nothing is altered, but to speak with knowledge, that which was spoken in ignorance. Now let the reader mind what was the estate of the church in those days; and see if the word of God will approve it.

But there were say these men) great numbers by preaching so effectually called, that in Q Mary's reign, many sealed the truth with their blood : I acknowledge it; and say also that as there have many martyrs died heretofore in the Popish church, so I doubt not, but great numbers at this day are by preaching so effectually called, in Rome, Spayn &c. that if Turks or Pagans should preuayl over them, they would maintain & seal Christian religion with their blood, rather then submit to Mahomet. For (as one of your best ministers hath truly said) God of his infinite goodness who c • lleth things that are not as though they were, even in that ministry, hath given grace unto his Saints ; &, it was impossible that the man of sin should so much adulterat the word of God, but that it should be to the faithful a gospel of salvation. It is further alleged, h there were sundry secret congregations all Q Mary's days which gladly received the gospel offered by Q. Eliz. & (say thes ministers) if it be said that they ceased to be the true churchs of Christ, because they joined & became one body, with such as were newly come (and that not of conscience but for fear only) from idolatry: we answer, that they rather that-had fallen from the Gospel in Q. Mary's days were moved by Q Eliz: proclamation, to join themselves unto them, that had stood faithfully all that while,

Here is still building upon the sands, for the profane & popish multitude had not received the gospel before, but (as hath been shown) wer • constrained by K. Edw. against their wills to hear English Mattins in their churches, where they were wont to hear Lati • Latin mass ; and were glad with all their hearts when their old blind devotion did again take place, and they might suck the blood of such as spake against it. So they cannot rightly be said to fall from the gospel, which they never received. And what secret congregations there were in Q. Mary's days, I know not: but if they were so secret, as only they met now and then in private, and ordinarily went to church openly with Papists, they were not a true church of Christ. And that constrained, union of Papists and of Protestants at the beginning of Q Eliz reign, under Archbishops, Bishops, Priests &c. with most of the same mattins, evensongs, rites, ceremonies &c. that before had been imposed; this order can never be warranted by the testament of Christ, nor such a commixture proved to be a true church.

And whereas it is noted for another untruth that Mr. Barrow and Greenu • . should say, that in one day by the blast of her Majesty's, trumpet at the Beginning of her reign, all sorts of men were drawn to a prof • ssion of the gospel, without any further means used : these ministers may be seen to be mere cauillers, and bent to deprave. For the words even as themselves have set them down, (whereby the reader may espy their falsehood) were these, where such profane multitudes were all immediately from public idolatry at one instant received or rather compelled to be members of this church, in some parish or other, without any due calling to the faith, by the preaching of the Gospel going before, or orderly joining together in the faith, there being no voluntary or particular confession of their own faith &c.

Now these men to reign an untruth, yea another untruth when non • was afore, have among other things, changed without any due calling to the faith into without any further means used ; and then to convince this their own fictiō, they tell us of sundry preachers sent betweē November & Midsommer that called many. But his neither cleareth them of corrupt dealing, nor proveth that the whole realm which at Midsommer was compelled to this church, worsh • p, ministry, &c. was duly called unto the faith : much less that they orderly joined together in the same. So that the untruth must rest in their own bosom.

This being proved (say these ministers) that there was a true Church in thi • land, before her Majesty's reign; the question must not be whether the means she used were the right means for the first calling and converting a people in the faith; but wether she took not a lawful course for the recalling and reuniting of her subjects unto those true professors, whose fellowship they had forsaken.

Loe how these men run on, as if they had proved that, whereof we have yet heard scarce any show of proof. And altering closely the question, they say there was a true church in the land ; whereas they must prou • a true church of the land, as now it is and long hath been esteemed the Church of England, having an Archbishop and other officers over it, which • re in their Conuocation house, the Representative Church of England. So it no • not being a true church the examples, they allege of reformation by the Kings of Judah, fit not their turns; for Judah was a true church, though some corruptions had crept in, as will easily do into the best.) Abijah the predecessor of Asa, maintained God's true religion, and worship against idolatrous Israel both by word and sword. So Asa found not his kingdom a false church, as K. Edw: & Q Elizab. found England: yet used he that great care for reformation, mentioned, 2 Chro. 14. & 15. and his son Jehoshaphat after him greater care both to reform and teach the peo • le. 2 Chron. 17. Afterwards when abominations had overspread the land, H • zekiah labored a godly reformation, and opening the doors of the Lord's house, he brought in the Priests and Levites, not the Chemarins or Baals Priests, as the popish clergy (which their own notes on Reu. 9.3. acknowledge to be the Locusts of the bottomless pit) were brought in or rather retained still in this church, as Mr Fox showeth, Hezekiah sent over all the land to convert the people from idolatry; who laughed the messengers to scorn and mocked them howbeit divers submitted themselves and came to Jerusalem; and it was God that gave Judah a heart to obey the King and rulers according to his word Neither were any admitted to the Passover but such as had voluntarily yielded, repented, and either sanctified themselves, or else (being prevented through want of time) were healed (or cleansed) of the Lord, at the Kings prayer. The other disobedient. Israelites God punished by the sword and slavery of Asshur, because they would not obey the voice of the Lord their God. Finally Iosijah purged the land of idols & false worship, reduced his people unto the true service of God; which they with himself had covenanted to walk in.

These examples we acknowledge all Christian princes should follow, having equal power with these Kings of Judah, to abolish all idolatry within their dominions; yea and to punish obstinate idolaters, and not suffer any superstitious worship among their. subjects, but to procure their conversion by the word, yet not to compel them to be members of the church, because they cannot give them faith and repentance, which is the only door into Christ's kingdom, and cannot be opened to any but by God alone. Which doctrine and practice these ministers (if they would not learn out of holy writ) mought have seen set forth in their own book of Martyrs ; where when Ethelbert King of Kent was converted and Christened, and after him innumerable other daily came and were adjoined to the church yet the King ( saith Mr Fox) compelled none; for he had learned that the faith and service of Christ, ought to be voluntary and not coacted.

I acknowledge the Godly and gracious disposition and care of K. Ed. & Q Eliz. at the first for restoring of the Gospel; to be worthy of purpetuall praise and memory: and the error that was, in retaining the popish profane multitudes, the Antichristian clergy, the Romish worship worship turned into English, (some few gross things left out;) and th • other evils yet to be seen in the ecclesiastical estate; these I judge are rather to be im • uted unto the false clergy men, which were trusted too much in thes matters & dealt not according to the trust reposed in them but sought to enrich themselves with the spoils of Bable and of Jericho the Bishoprics benefices, and other like Romish revenues, rather the • for the build the house of God, upon the foundations of Zion. And this sin cleaveth fast unto these priests, even to this day; who cannot endure to have their portion spoken against, but think all too little that they enjoy; when as for discharge of their functions in teaching the people, the most conscionable among themselves have complained to the Parliament that the word of God is negligently, fantastically, profanely and •• thenishly preached ; and all the land knoweth, that many ministers preach not at all.

Whereas these ministers tell us of diverse congregations, that have publicly professed their repentance for their former idolatry ; it is well if so it be; & God give them grace to go forward in well doing. But they tell us not of any congregation that professeth repentance for their present idolatry, or that renounceth the communion of the other impenitent and profane parishes: which they should also do if they would be the sons and daughters of the Lord almighty. Nay we know that if any among them do this, they ar excommunicated ipso facto out of the church of England, by force of their canons, anno 160 • .

Finally, whereas these Ministers doubt not to affirm, that the whole land in the parliament held in the first year of her Majesty's reign, did enter into a solemn covenant with the Lord for renouncing of Popery, and receiving the Gospel. First they set not down what covenant the Parliament then made nor how they renounced Popery; and therefore that is to be judged of, when it shall more particularly be produced Secondly if then the Parliament house so did it is commendable in them but that the whole communialtie of the realm can be said to do it with them, I utterly deny. For howsoever all subjects are and ought to submit to the good civil laws there enacted: and obedience may be enforced by the sword, if any man resist: yet in cases of conscience every man must live by his own faith; men must gladly receive the word out of which all religion must be gathered all Kings and kingdoms submitting unto the laws and ordinances in Chr • sts Testament if they would have blessing and salvation by him. And as the honorable in the Parliament, could not be baptized for the commons; so neither could they repent or covenant with God for them: but the people must yield their own willing consent, which they never did; but were and still are compelled by law and penalty to be of the church and religion established. Which how well they have brooked, let the testimonies of the ministers before alleged, and the irreligious walking of many thousands ever since manifest. For now our land is a reprouch to the idolatrous Papists for the multitude of Atheists and Machevillians that are therein.

The second thing (which these Ministers say) we object against the whole body of their assemblies is, That they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God, which is polluted with the writings of men, vid. with read stinted prayers, homilies, Catechisms and such like. To which they give this answer.

First it is evident by the word, that the church hath used and might lawfully use in prayer, and God's worship, a stinted and set form, of words. And here • hey allege Num. 6 23.24. Deut 26.3.15. Psal. 22. & 92.1 Chro. 16.8.36. Luk. 11.2.

Very strange it is, that after so much time and consideration; men that profess to be ministers of the Gospel, should give such an answer. The thing objected against their worship made of the invention of the man of sin, was in the first answer to Mr Gifford (who shut his eyes, and would not see th' abominations of the same). shown in sundry particulars; as the Romish fasts; feasts and holy days, Comminations, Rogations, Purifications, &c. blasphemous & heretical collects &c. which after were more plainly refuted These and the like evils contained in their Liturgy translated out of the Massebook, and imposed upon their parishesr being by Mr Barrow blamed: now come these ministers and tell us of Psalms that David made, of forms of blessing and prayer, that God and our Lord Christ prescribeth to his church; and these must countenance and bear our all the popish trash that is in their service book.

But it would far better have fitted their estate and worship, if they had cited the Popes in stead of the Patriarchs, Prophets and Apostles, who were altogether unacquainted with this Rom • sh service. For howsoever David made many Psalms, yet not he but Pope Damasus (as writers say) ordained Glory be to the Father &c. to be added unto them, and they to be sung by tournes, (as the church of Engl. yet useth;) and Pope Vitalian to make up the music, brought in the Organs, Yea the foresaid Damasus enjoined Jerome to make an order of service for churches, and appoint what prayers should be said on every day, and how many Psalms &c. which being done, the Pope commanded all churches should use that order and none other And a much like exploit was performed by the Archbishop of Cant. and his brethren in K. Edwards days (as Mr Fox reporteth) for the service now used still in Engl. Agayne, for the particulars, who framed the Anthems, Responds, Collects, and Kyries, that are said at mattins? neither Prophet nor Apostle, but as some say pope Gregory I. and Pope Gelasius. And the same Pope Gregory put k the Pater noster into the mass. and commanded it to be sung; and Pope Mar • us I would have the Nicene Creed sung after; the Gospel. Pope Anacletus thought it fit the priest and people should salute one another another in service time, and therefore appointed the one to say. T •• Lord hear • th 〈◊〉 , and the other to answer, And with thy spirit. Pope 〈◊〉 put i • at the Sacrament O lamb of God that takest away the sins of the w • rl • , h • u • mercy on us ; Pope Symmachus • d added the hymme Glory be to G • d on high ; and the other Popes b • ought in their parts, and patched together the • r Letani • , & Liturgy out of which the English seruicebook is taken, Likewise for the fasting days and holy festiu • ties, though the Apostles appointed them not, yet the Popes did: Telesohorus would have the Lent to be fasted; and Pope Calistus the four times in the year, or Imbring days. Pope Sylvester 1. added the Wednesdays, Frydaye • and Satur • ayes weekly; and Pope Innocen • 3. put unto the former almost all the Apostles eues. The Saints and Angels were also beholding to these Reverend fathers for hallowing their days. For generally all the Saints found such favor with Pope Boniface, that they had not only a catholic holy day given them, called All-hallomes, but a famous Temple in Rome once ded • cated to all the D • uils and called Pantheon, was turned by this holy Father into the name of Maria rotunda. and consecrated to the hono • r of the B Virgin‘ and all martyrs Pope Felix 3, mad holy the day of the archangel Michael, Boniface the 8. shown like honor to the 4, Evangelists, and many other memorable gests are recorded of the Fathers of the See of Rome, whereof there is not a word in the Testament of Christ, that he or his disciples did ever the like. For they appointed not priests apparall, long gowns, tippers 4. horned capps, as did Pope Zechariah ; nor a white linen surplice at service time, as did Pope Sylvester 1. They hallowed no Temples or Churches as did P. Hyginus, nor Churchyards, as did P. Calistus 1, Neither ordained ringing of bells to call the people to divine service, as did P. Sabinian. They appointed no Rood-loft to part the Chancel from the church, as did P. B • niface 2, nor hallowed Font to Christian in; or Godfathers and Godmothers at baptism, as did P, Pius 1. and Hyginus. They commanded not the people to go procession as did Pope Agapetus 1. nor appointed any Bishoping or Confirmation of children, as did P, Clement. 1. with a great number more of like pranks used in the Romish service. which Christ's Apostles knew not, as their writings show. But the church of Engl. (as next heir of Rome's constitutions,) reteyneth these relics, observeth these rites and a many moe; for which the Papists do insult and say that from their treasure house, the religion now established hath learned the form of christening, Marrying, Churching of women, Visiting the sick, Burying: and sundry other lik • as the books translated out of theirs, do declare. And now what saith God's law for all such things unto his people? I am (saith he) the Lord your God. After the doing of the land of Egypt wherein ye dwell, shall ye not do: and after the doing of the land of Canaan whether I will bring you; shall ye not do; neither walk in their ordinances. My judgments shall ye do; and my ordinances shall ye keep, to walk in them: I am the Lord your God, Thus he forbad them not only the worship of false God's: but even the imitation of idolatrous worship rites and ordinances in his service: wherefor he charged them again, that they should not so much as inquire or ask how the nations served their God's, that they might do so to the Lord their God. But whatsoever he commanded them, they should make heed to do it; putting nothing thereto, nor taking ought therfrom. Yet the Bishops and Priests of Engl. have almost all things in their Lei • ourgie, according to the doings of that spiritual Egypt the Romish church wherein they dwelt, and have imitated her worships‘ orders, ceremonies &c. retained her ministry, prelacy, courts, and canons: th • Latin being turned into English, and some gross superfluities left ou • . And in defense of this worship, have these godly ministers written, & Mr Bernard published their work: wherein if the reader see not a so • nd proof of the things that Mr Barrow (whose errors they pretend to confute ) reproved; he must impute it to the badness of their cause, which will scars admit of any color from the book of God. For (besides the abuse of holy scriptures alleged to justify these popish stratagems,) how sound & divine, (or rather how fond and corrupt) is the reasoning of these men, from God's example and authority, unto their own practice and power that because the Lord God gave forms of blessing, prayer and psalms to his people, (as the scriptures which they cite do show) therefore their Lord's the Prelates may give them also prescript words for blessing, prayer, and Psalms &c. as is to be seen in their service book. Can we think that Jeroboam had so slender a reason for his gold̄ calves? Why do not these men also plead, that God gave a law by Moses ? therefore there may a law be given likewise by the Bishops: or, th' Apostles wrote a New Testament, therefore the Conuocation house may also write a Testament or Gospel; & bring it into the church? If the Prophets practice will bear them ovt in the one: I see no cause why it may not uphold them in the other. Well, seeing neither Mr Gifford heretofore, nor these ministers now, can bring better defense for the work of their own hands wherewith they worship or rather provoke the Lord's I leave them to consider of those laws that everywhere cry ovt against and show the punishment of idolatry. Neither is it needful to keep the Reader with longer answer, seeing Mr Barrow in the fornamed books, and Mr Greenwood in a peculiar treatise against these stinted prayers, and se • worship have proved the unlawfulness of them by many reasons, which neither these ministers nor any other have yet taken away. And when they write again, let them not bring proofs for things that we deney not; as that Daunds Psalms may be sung in the church; and that in our prayers we may use or apply, the words that other holy men before used in their prayers, upon like occasions; both these we grant and practice: but let them prove, (if they be able and their right hand can help them, that their own writetnn prayers, psalms &c. may be read and sung in churches, church •• , as God's true worship and then also they may command the clouds to rayn no more, and may cause to cease the bottles of heaven.

Like to their former plea, and maintenance of their service book, is also their answer for Catechisms ; as for Homilies it seems they leave the the defense of them to the simple priests that read them, but Catechisms are used even by the learned preachers, therefore somewhat they say for them, as that the principles of religion were taught in the churches of old, Rō 2.20, & 6 17.2 Tim, 1 13, Heb. 5.12.13, 14 and 6, 1.2. But these ministers are either simple or very deceitful, so to turn away from the question For we never deneyed that the grounds and heads of Christian religion should be taught to the people; far be it from us: but this we say, the Prophets and Apostles are not found to prescribe set words for the minister to teach, or the people to answer being examined. And that therefore these Bishops and Priests are very presumptuous, that will take upon them to do that which Christ's Apostles never did in the churches. Again, that if those men of God had to done; yet seeing the writings of Prophets and Apostles are canonical scriptures, and so are no men's writings now: it will by no means follow, that if they wrote catechisms to be used in the Church, therefore men may writ some for like use now. Yea rather why are they not content with that which is already written in the scriptures, but run to erroneous catechisms of human writers, such as is that authorized catechism in the book of common prayer, commanded to be used in the church of England?

Having heard what these godly ministers say for their people, and service book; I expected somewhat also, for defense of their own minister, and the ecclesiastical government of their Lord's the Prelates; which were the other two • eads of error excepted against, in the forenamed books. But in both these they are silent; and reason there may be for it: for the inferior ministry hangs upon the superior, the hierarchy, and now the godly ministers are in a great strayt, for either they must loose their ministry, and then what boots it to plead for the same, or else they must, (though they be loath) be buxome and submit to their Fathers the Bishops; and when this is done, it may be we shall see some such defense of two later, as we have already of the former. Mr Bernard himself hath begun fayrly; for whereas a while since he was hot against the Bishops. he now cannot endure they should be called Antichristian proud prelates or the like; and thinks it can never be proved, that the entrance into the ministry by the Prelates, is a false entrance. So it is not to be thought but his Ordinary and he will agree well enough. Well howsoever it be, God (I doubt not) will turn all things to his own glory and furtherance of his truth; yea even the writings of these adversaries, shall be a means to stir men up unto a consideration of their ways, which God give them grace for to do, and to turn their feet into the paths of life and peace that they may find rest unto their souls.